[HN Gopher] The Failure Mode of Clever (2010)
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The Failure Mode of Clever (2010)
Author : ColinWright
Score : 79 points
Date : 2022-08-05 12:35 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (whatever.scalzi.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (whatever.scalzi.com)
| macintux wrote:
| For anyone unfamiliar with Scalzi, he's an accomplished science
| fiction author. My favorite of his is _Redshirts_ , an odd take
| on a Star Trek-esque world.
|
| https://whatever.scalzi.com/about/books-by-john-scalzi/
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| OTOH, that's my least favorite book of his. Ironically, it's
| probably his most "clever" book, using contrivances for humor.
|
| In most of his other books the humor is not the primary goal.
| But they're filled with witty characters, so contain much more
| good humor IMO than Redshirts where humor is the primary goal.
|
| John Scalzi writes some of my favorite books, but Redshirts
| isn't among them.
|
| Our disagreement is another example of the central thesis of
| his linked essay!
| mcphage wrote:
| That's weird, I didn't think Redshirts was really that funny.
| Honestly, I though it was pretty bleak, although in the final
| third or so I thought it was really excellent.
| balsam wrote:
| Scalzi says here that he intended it to be funny
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/726k57/comment/dnhg
| 4...
| mcphage wrote:
| I definitely thought it was going to be funny, but
| instead of "ha ha, we're all going to die!" it was "oh
| god, we're all going to die!". Still, by the time I got
| to the final bit (if you've read it, you know the part
| I'm talking about), I thought it was really excellent.
| photochemsyn wrote:
| It's a good thing to keep in mind: if you really want someone who
| you're pretty sure already disagrees with you to at least
| entertain an alternative viewpoint, being clever isn't the way.
| Simple, straightforward and polite is the best point of entry.
|
| If they're willing to pay attention, then you can try introducing
| some complexity in a more intelligent manner. Note the word
| 'clever' has a lot of negative connotations - highly manipulative
| people are generally described as 'clever'. Consider also the
| phrase 'too clever by half' - it's a way of stating that someone
| isn't trustworthy.
| fullshark wrote:
| This has been very clear after this was written if you look at
| internet communication over the past 12 years, just people
| desperately chasing internet points (upvotes, clicks, whatever)
| with attempts to be clever, and when it fails it just seems to
| breed toxic assholishness.
| balsam wrote:
| If you enjoyed that, maybe you might think well of some pithy
| musings along similar lines:
|
| https://www.wisesayings.com/tact-quotes/
|
| I particularly like the ones which relate tact to cleverness or
| wit.
| code_duck wrote:
| I wouldn't say it's necessarily 'asshole'. I've learned this
| lesson from my own behavior and watching people in my family.
| Sometimes the failure mode is that they just have no idea what
| you're talking about and are confused. People don't trust people
| who confuse them, so it's a good idea to be direct until they
| know your personality and how to interpret you, as the article
| suggests.
| bloomingeek wrote:
| Now close to retirement as an engineer, I've met and worked with
| many people, mostly men. I've been telling the new workers who
| get hired the only thing that really matters to your co-workers
| is your reputation. If you pull your work load and are willing to
| help others, good things will always return to you from your
| fellow employees. However...
|
| <The failure mode of clever is "asshole.">
|
| There will always be some of these clever people! Either they
| will attempt to prove their superiority or prove how stupid you
| are. This, of course, ruins their reputation. When I've
| respectfully tried to clue them in when they complain because
| they think others don't like them or quit helping them, they
| almost always are completely amazed that someone could actually
| think they are lacking in social skills. Oh well.
| afc wrote:
| This resonates very strongly with me. Well said. Thank you for
| writing it.
| xavxav wrote:
| I don't get what is meant by clever in this context, how do you
| "cleverly" introduce yourself by writing to someone?
|
| I do agree with the broader point about cleverness' failure mode
| though.
| smogcutter wrote:
| Think online dating, for example: opening a conversation with a
| witty (in your eyes) comment based on the person's profile.
| Ensorceled wrote:
| Basically by including a bad pun, obscure reference or
| complicated joke that can be interpreted in multiple ways. If
| the reader doesn't get the reference or joke they are left to
| interpret it as being in bad taste or that the writer is, well,
| odd and not worth communicating with.
|
| A good example from popular culture: Chris Rock did a clever
| bit that basically said Jada Pinket Smith looked as bad ass,
| and hot, as Demi Moore in GI Jane. Will Smith, and many others,
| took it as Rock attacking his wife. The failure condition of
| the clever bit was asshole.
| Ensorceled wrote:
| I've been a fan of Scalzi's twitter and blog for a while and this
| is one of my personal favourites.
|
| It's kind of the general case of Poe's Law.
|
| I now ask myself (usually) "Does correctly interpreting my
| comment/joke require the reader/listener to know that I am
| clever, droll, sarcastic and definitely not-a-nazi?"
| Swizec wrote:
| > "Does correctly interpreting my comment/joke require the
| reader/listener to know that I am clever, droll, sarcastic and
| definitely not-a-nazi?"
|
| This gets even more fun cross culturally. I used to practice
| emoting in the mirror when first moving to America because
| people couldn't read me and would often joke/complain that I
| come off like a robot.
|
| Even now it still takes some conscious effort to over-do my
| emotions. Especially around surprises and such.
|
| Back home they now say I "grin like an american".
| ido wrote:
| Are you Russian?
| Swizec wrote:
| Slovenian. But yes it's a common slavic trait
| ourmandave wrote:
| If the failure mode of clever is "you're definitely-a-Nazi.",
| that's on them.
| mannykannot wrote:
| Even if that is so, I suspect it is more likely to be a
| problem for you rather than them.
| Ensorceled wrote:
| In the current political climate, deciding that some one is
| openly a Nazi isn't that much of a stretch and,
| unfortunately, often correct.
| ttpphd wrote:
| Hmm interesting. Personally I'm willing to constructively
| critique the flaws of my communication style if other people
| are giving me feedback that I come across as an asshole or
| Nazi.
| MOARDONGZPLZ wrote:
| Same, my humor is very dry. Everyone seems to laugh, but given
| it's very deadpan I've made the mistake of being "humorous"
| around new people who don't know me. Shockingly I later find
| their first impression was that I'm a complete ass. C'est la
| vie.
| Ensorceled wrote:
| In university I was introduced to a group of people by a
| common friend. After ward she told me they all argued about
| me; half the group thought I was the funniest guy and the
| other half a complete ass.
| chrisweekly wrote:
| Those aren't always mutually exclusive
| smartscience wrote:
| "To Avoid Criticism, Say Nothing, Do Nothing, Be
| Nothing"... https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/01/09/say-
| nothing/
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| it has been quite some time since I read this, perhaps 12 years,
| and I had forgotten the salient point that it is about the first
| private communication with someone the initiator of communication
| does not know, in that context trying to be clever and failing to
| seem clever to the person being contacted makes one seem an
| asshole.
|
| So while it could also be that internet mob decides that someone
| failing to be clever is an asshole it should be noted that the
| failure probably was quite larger of a failure, given that it was
| misinterpreted by a mob probably reading something on social
| media they sought out and not just a single person getting
| contacted out of the blue.
| satisfice wrote:
| Or just be clever and accept what happens. I am content with that
| approach.
|
| Although, when I am emailed by strangers offering work, I am
| polite.
| vonnik wrote:
| You need to give an introductory class in yourself to others,
| over and over again, at the risk of boring yourself to tears, in
| order not to be judged by low-context people for your high-
| context comments. Which is a lot less fun than being clever. But
| probably more fun than being ostracized.
|
| So it's basically impossible to perform yourself in a high-
| context way on an open social media platform like Twitter,
| because people reading you for the first time will always misread
| you, and rarely want to spend the time to understand the context.
| And as a result we have the usual fireworks of misunderstanding.
| ttpphd wrote:
| Yes, so very well put!
|
| The loss of context / transformation of context that Twitter
| and Facebook imposes is key to how it has been used, to fuel
| genocides and foment political turmoil as well as to cross-
| pollinate across previous cultural divides.
| whatshisface wrote:
| Every physics thread is 20% legitimate questions, 60% high-ego
| software engineers explaining how dark matter doesn't sound
| right to them, and 20% answers and refutations to the other
| 80%. About half of that 20% contains a misunderstanding, and
| the other half has a slight mis-phrasing or unimportant
| omission that all replies fixate on.
|
| > _You need to give an introductory class in yourself to
| others, over and over again, at the risk of boring yourself to
| tears, in order not to be judged by low-context people for your
| high-context comments._
|
| The art of quickly and effectively bringing other people up, in
| the specific way relevant to a conversation, to a level that
| took you years to reach, is a complex skill and one you can
| learn to enjoy.
| [deleted]
| mark_l_watson wrote:
| Well, good advice.
|
| I really like Scalzi's sci-fi, especially the audio books
| narrated by Will Wheaton- I am fairly sure I have listened to all
| of them.
| swayvil wrote:
| I can't tell if you are clever or asshole.
| mark_l_watson wrote:
| I am neither.
|
| Seriously, I really do like his books, especially those
| narrated by Will Wheaton.
| swayvil wrote:
| It's some kind of TNG in-joke, right?
| mark_l_watson wrote:
| OK, I understand. Will Wheaton was a child actor on Star
| Trek Next Generation. Will is now almost 50, and he now
| has other ways of making a living. Being a good audio
| book narrator is one of them.
| docfort wrote:
| I especially liked Wil Wheaton's rendition of "Fuzzy
| Nation." Kaiju Preservation Society was pretty fun too.
| glook wrote:
| The advice my adult children remember most from me, especially
| when visiting rarely-seen family, is "Don't try to be funny, try
| to be nice."
| AstralStorm wrote:
| Funny, nice people don't stand out either. Lucky, connected,
| affable ones do stand out. They don't even have to be anything
| else, most of the time.
|
| They don't get there by being nice or funny all the time, but
| by practice and reading the audience.
| swayvil wrote:
| They may consider you an asshole. But if they do then you can
| enjoy the satisfaction of knowing that they are dumber than you.
|
| That's the implied equation. We all know it well.
|
| And consider the realm of smart specialists. Every time your
| circle and the other guy's circle fail to intersect. So he fails
| to get your subtle jokes. Which happens a lot. Bam! There's
| another dumb asshole.
| vsareto wrote:
| We could sometimes afford to be like "oh, that person tried to be
| clever, maybe I should give them another shot instead of just
| lazily judging them on a sample size of one"
| Karellen wrote:
| It's possible that in failing to appear clever, one might also
| even fail to appear as if they were trying to be clever.
|
| i.e. It's not that the recipient thought a joke wasn't funny,
| it's that they didn't even realise a joke was being attempted.
| andrewflnr wrote:
| That's really part and parcel of the whole Hanlon's razor
| thing: sometimes you have to put forth a tiny shred of
| imaginative effort to consider whether someone was maybe
| trying to be clever, or otherwise find the non-asshole
| interpretation of someone's actions.
|
| This is not even remotely the most important case where
| failure of imagination is a moral failing.
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