[HN Gopher] Diagnosing Mental Health Disorders Through AI Facial...
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Diagnosing Mental Health Disorders Through AI Facial Expression
Evaluation
Author : Hard_Space
Score : 32 points
Date : 2022-08-03 13:04 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.unite.ai)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.unite.ai)
| mhd wrote:
| I agree with a few fellow posters that this looks a bit like
| soothsaying 2.0, but it really doesn't matter whether it works or
| not when it comes to the abuse potential, it's enough that people
| in charge believe it. Ad targeting. Hiring. Dating.
|
| My psychotherapist partner will like it, finally something in
| that field that might be worse than the remaining Jungians.
| [deleted]
| schizo89 wrote:
| As a schizophrenic I'm super interested in obtaining a source
| code and a dataset
| pdenton wrote:
| "Disorders"?!
|
| What's this, "person of color" instead of "black" or N*, that's
| all cool and agreeable, but then how on earth is "disorder" still
| okay? Bull.
| wildpeaks wrote:
| Zachtronics' Eliza (https://www.gog.com/game/eliza) should be
| mandatory reading material before one chooses to use AI to deal
| with mental health issues.
| MonkeyMalarky wrote:
| Phrenology 2.0
| cfcf14 wrote:
| Exactly - this kind of research is repugnant and hopefully will
| be seen the same way phrenology is seen.
| antonymy wrote:
| Yup. My exact thought upon seeing the headline. Reading the
| article didn't really bring me away from this reaction either,
| still feels like a whole lot of bunk.
| JasserInicide wrote:
| Exactly what I was thinking. Like Jesus Christ, diagnosing
| mental illnesses is already a very shaky thing just due to
| their nature, and now we think we can do it by looking at a
| person's face?
| fatih-erikli wrote:
| Humans are much complicated than that. The article is a pure
| shitposting and ignore it for your sanity. How come this can stay
| in front of hackernews, It's unbelievable.
|
| WHOLE HN HOMEPAGE IS SHITPOSTING. WHATS HAPPENNING.
| Veuxdo wrote:
| Quick, are your eyebrows arched rn?
| civilized wrote:
| Right. And we can also tell whether they're gay, whether they're
| criminals, and whether they will buy Pepsi from our million-
| dollar ad campaign.
|
| Just kidding. A million dollars is way too little to spend on
| Pepsi ads.
| gchokov wrote:
| Imagine this thing in your wearable AR glasses..
| woodruffw wrote:
| On top of other commenters' (correct) observations about
| phrenology, I'll point out: the "disordered" face on the right is
| coded as feminine: higher cheekbones, thinner and raised
| eyebrows, &c.
|
| Given that women are diagnosed with depression at nearly twice
| the rate that men are, there's probably a fundamental data error
| here. Which is no surprise, given that it's all bunk science.
| llamataboot wrote:
| Just what we need, machine learning phrenology to give people
| diagnoses that effect them for life that are largely arbitrary
| and porous categories
| zoomablemind wrote:
| Hard not to remember that AI parole-officer scene from the
| Elysium movie [1].
|
| The AI was 'detecting' several emotional states in real-time,
| most notably the sarcasm.
|
| At the movie release this looked quite spot-on about the AI
| state. Perhaps now it's more able and sensitive/sensible.
|
| [1]: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=flLoSxd2nNY
| whatshisface wrote:
| The pictures they offer look like someone who's feeling well, and
| someone who's feeling bad. Would this model classify people with
| chronic illnesses as mentally ill, because they're feeling bad?
| What about people who had just dropped their phone and cracked
| the screen?
| drjasonharrison wrote:
| While many people have raised negative applications and uses of
| this technology, your question implies that the test is
| performed without any other context or input from the person,
| and that no follow-up questions are asked.
|
| So, yes, it can be used to provide inaccurate classifications.
| The application of the system will determine the (mis) use of
| the classification.
|
| Not enough therapists (currently a problem)....use the app!
|
| Emergency Room full (currently a problem)....use the app!
|
| Applying for insurance....use the app and send in your score...
| neocodesoftware wrote:
| according to multiple historical spurce this is the basis of the
| voight-kampff test
| AlanYx wrote:
| This paper is a dog's breakfast. Even the header isn't properly
| proofread (it reads "JOURNAL OF LATEX CLASS FILES, VOL. 14, NO.
| 8, AUGUST 2015"). Figure 5 shows the results of an experiment
| where people were asked to rate the mean faces, which seems
| irrelevant to the rest of the work.
|
| There could be some interesting work in this area, for example to
| support or reject the popular belief in Asia that visible sclera
| above or below the iris is indicative of mental health, but this
| paper isn't it.
| just_steve_h wrote:
| "Opto Electric Phrenology" (OEP) would be a better name.
|
| "Depression" and "Schizophrenia" as diagnostic categories are
| fraught, as they include many subtypes and, in the latter case,
| may lump together multiple distinct conditions.
|
| At best, this "AI diagnosis" research can claim that the
| "diagnosis" the system produced matches the "diagnosis" a panel
| of human psychiatrists reached for the same subject. Like most AI
| research, the training set and the biases and assumptions it
| contains are the real challenge.
|
| AI Ethics are not yet standard practice in most institutional
| settings, and it shows.
| didericis wrote:
| > Like most AI research, the training set and the biases and
| assumptions it contains are the real challenge.
|
| That seems like an insurmountable problem. AI obfuscates those
| assumptions and risks deeply ingraining them/causing
| stagnation. If there isn't some kind of distributed human
| mechanism actively involved in not just generating data, but
| also in choosing the relevancy and the modeling, it seems like
| many of these AI applications will be actively worse than human
| centered systems that can address and evolve the model/data
| collection based on those biases/assumptions on the fly.
|
| AI seems like something that should only be used when the
| success criteria are super clear/close to incontrovertible.
| ccbccccbbcccbb wrote:
| In a world run by utter psychopaths who print money out of thin
| air for all those grants to award to AI, data mining and
| surveillance R&D, there is no trace of doubt those areas are
| inevitably going to be weaponized and used against the worst
| enemy of the state - the individuality.
|
| This is Punitive Psychiatry 2.0
| phren0logy wrote:
| I'm a psychiatrist, and (like most people) I'm both intrigued and
| terrified about what AI will bring.
|
| I'm not terrified about losing my job (we're spread so thin that
| I don't think it will be an issue for competent psychiatrists in
| my lifetime), but I'm terrified that the mentally ill are
| marginalized and that a crappy but cost-effective approach with a
| high margin of error may rise to prominence.
|
| The diagnostic categories, as mentioned by just_steve, are indeed
| imprecise, and the RDoc approach
| (https://www.nimh.nih.gov/research/research-funded-by-nimh/rd...)
| would be a much better fit for this type of research.
|
| Lastly, here is my dream for a good use of AI in psychiatry: With
| so much psychiatric care happening remotely, I would love to have
| a real-time dashboard/HUD with measures of disorganized speech
| patterns or affective intensity, etc, that I could use to
| supplement the information available via video link. It would be
| nice to have some additional data to make up for the trade-off of
| not being in the room. Perhaps one day with some kind of AR it
| might even be able to happen in the same room. It would be hard
| to make it not distracting, but done well it could add a lot. And
| if it went with the patient if they moved then it would be far
| more useful as it would be trained to their own personal
| variations. It would be really nice to catch early onset of
| episodes of mania or psychosis though subtle changes, and many of
| the public-sector patients I work with bounce around too often
| for someone to get to know them well enough to catch those subtle
| changes from baseline.
| MonkeyMalarky wrote:
| What do you think of tools like one?
| https://www.aifredhealth.com/
| phren0logy wrote:
| I can't really tell from the website, but maybe? The site
| seems focused on depression, and at least in my practice I'm
| not sure that would add much for me.
| adamsmith143 wrote:
| >but I'm terrified that the mentally ill are marginalized and
| that a crappy but cost-effective approach with a high margin of
| error may rise to prominence.
|
| I understand the fear but is there any value to be gained by
| vastly expanding access to Mental Health diagnostics, even
| flawed ones?
|
| Not being cheeky, genuinely interested. One hears about a
| Mental Health crisis in the US quite often, so could this
| actually be a net positive tool?
| drjasonharrison wrote:
| Personally, acknowledging that mental health is a real thing
| that sometimes goes awry and requires real treatment is still
| an issue that more people need to be aware of and more
| accepting of.
|
| I think we've made progress in addressing postpartum
| depression and first responder PTSD. There remain many
| stigmas and a lack of awareness about mental health, mental
| injury, and moral injury, that in North American society lead
| to substance and screen addictions, as well as anti-social
| behaviours.
|
| So diagnostics would be helpful, but treatment and societal
| perspective needs to improve.
| galdosdi wrote:
| > a crappy but cost-effective approach with a high margin of
| error may rise to prominence.
|
| What, like antidepressants?
| pdkl95 wrote:
| > a crappy but cost-effective approach with a high margin of
| error may rise to prominence.
|
| The tech startup that eventually creates that will call this
| "efficiency". This type of 'solution' is exactly what
| capitalism creates.
|
| > I would love to have a real-time dashboard/HUD with measures
| of disorganized speech patterns or affective intensity
|
| > It would be hard to make it not distracting
|
| Not only would it be distracting, it could also bias you in
| unexpected ways.
|
| > I would love to have a real-time dashboard/HUD with measures
| of disorganized speech patterns or affective intensity,
|
| I already don't trust a lot of the mental health industry
| because of the very bad experiences[1] I've had in the past.
| The easiest/fastest way to guarantee I never visit a
| psychiatrist again is to start using that kind of "AI" tech
| without first showing me the source code. "Magic" hidden
| algorithms are already a problem in other medical situations
| like pacemakers[2] and CPAP[3] devices.
|
| > make up for the trade-off of not being in the room
|
| Maybe what you need isn't some sort of "AI" or other tech
| buzzword. It sounds like you need better _communication
| technology_ that doesn 't lose as much information.
|
| --
|
| On the more general topic of "AI in psychiatry", I strongly
| encourage you to play the visual novel _Eliza_ [4] by
| Zachtronics. It's about your fear of a cheap, high error rate
| system with an additional twist: the same system also optimizes
| _your_ role into a "gig economy" job.
|
| [1] a brief description of one of those experiences:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26035775
|
| [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2FNqXhr4c8
|
| [3] https://www.vice.com/en/article/xwjd4w/im-possibly-alive-
| bec...
|
| [4] https://www.zachtronics.com/eliza/
| mistrial9 wrote:
| no small irony in the name of a company involved as "unite AI"
| .. humans are predatory animals in packs, and make no mistake,
| this tech will be used to hunt weak humans by other humans
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