[HN Gopher] Disneyland with Death Penalty
___________________________________________________________________
Disneyland with Death Penalty
Author : oumua_don17
Score : 189 points
Date : 2022-08-01 17:14 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (en.wikipedia.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (en.wikipedia.org)
| olah_1 wrote:
| Ive heard Singapore cited as the one instance where multi-
| culturalism actually works. The catch being that you need a
| police state to enforce the norms on everyone. And you enforce it
| equally.
| wizofaus wrote:
| Define "works"? I'd suggest the vast majority of those in my
| own city (a state capital in Australia) would agree that multi-
| culturalism is a positive and key feature. We briefly
| experienced something close to a police state during the covid
| lockdowns of the previous two years but you could hardly call
| it that normally.
| causi wrote:
| _Singapore, Gibson details, is lacking any sense of creativity or
| authenticity,_
|
| I find it interesting the impression I personally formed of
| Singapore exactly matches the one Gibson did over a decade
| earlier. I understand how a particular kind of person could see
| it as a paradise, but personally I found it the most depressing
| place on earth.
| bowsamic wrote:
| Is it better or worse than Dubai? Or similar?
| causi wrote:
| Kind of depends. It's more sterile. Dubai you get the
| impression they generally care about you having a good time,
| at least if you're Western. Singapore they care about you
| looking like you're having a good time. Singapore doesn't
| have the de facto slavery problem of the Emirates, though.
| Food is definitely better in Dubai.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| I always found phrases like "Food is better in X city than
| Y", just silly.
| foodslave wrote:
| I wish you weren't being downed and the parent
| extrapolated.
|
| It's a very subjective critique... I live in a foodie
| city and am long tired of overpriced sandwiches splashed
| with an aioli served for a cool $20, no drink no side.
|
| Went to a no name city for hiking and found a nice hole
| in the wall shop with great food at a quarter the price
| and found _my_ kind of foodie.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| Well, the problem with these sweeping statements is that
| there zero objectivity. There is no way to discuss or
| learn anything about it. There is no way to falsify it.
|
| I could make the most easiest case that Singapore has
| better food than Dubai. Just because I said so.
|
| I find them silly and not very useful.
|
| Similarly, "I had the best ramen at this place" or "For
| authentic X food, you have to visit X" or "City X has the
| worst drivers" (Literally everyone says that about their
| city).
| georgeecollins wrote:
| I agree that those sort of generalizations are unfair and
| extremely subjective, but I think there is a truth to the
| idea that some places in the world people care more about
| food and are more picky about it. If you are well off
| person and only go to fancier places you see it less,
| because you are probably always served a baseline
| quality.
|
| But some parts of the world just have less access to
| fresh produce, less cultural diversity, etc. That doesn't
| seem quite so subjective. And there is good food to be
| found pretty much everywhere, that is not the point.
| VyseofArcadia wrote:
| So I take it you've never been to Boston.
|
| A friend of a friend often quips that the best way to get
| good Mexican in Boston is to go to Logan and fly almost
| anywhere else.
| volumetric wrote:
| My city seems to have a problem producing good bread at
| non-insane prices, which means it's also ~impossible to
| get a decent sandwich at anything but LOLWTF prices, and
| even then you're rolling the dice that it'll be better
| than what a totally ordinary sandwich _should_ taste
| like, and does in cities that don 't have this bizarre
| problem. We're in the heart of wheat-growing country,
| too. It's really weird.
|
| Our Mexican food's great, though, so we have that going
| for us.
| quesera wrote:
| I truly believe that there should be an exchange program
| between San Francisco and Boston.
|
| Boston needs a proper taqueria, and San Francisco needs a
| proper pizzeria.
|
| Boston needs proper Thai food, and San Francisco needs
| proper ice cream.
|
| Etc.
| jedberg wrote:
| I believe the number one destination for people leaving
| Boston is San Francisco. You'd think this would happen
| naturally.
|
| I don't remember where I read it, but one indicator is
| that when Boston's baseball team comes to Oakland, there
| are more Boston fans in attendance than Oakland fans.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| I love to dunk on Boston.
|
| Mediocre place with such an inflated sense of relevance.
| I feel like nobody would notice or care if so many
| aspects of Boston and people from there didn't think
| people cared.
| aphexairlines wrote:
| Or just walk down Peterborough street:
| https://elpelon.com
| nsxwolf wrote:
| Really? A statement like "New Orleans has better food
| than East Saint Louis, Illinois" doesn't sound that silly
| to me.
| paxys wrote:
| Dubai has a much larger collection of fancy restaurants
| from top chefs from any cuisine in the world.
|
| Singapore has a much better street and regular
| local/Chinese/Indian/SE Asian food scene.
| deckard1 wrote:
| I recall Anthony Bourdain going to Singapore in one of his
| shows and he seemed to really like the food there.
| pydry wrote:
| >Singapore doesn't have the de facto slavery problem of the
| Emirates
|
| It kind of does. They import Bangladeshi construction
| workers to build all the glitzy skyscrapers and
| infrastructure and shove them in dorms 16 to a room.
|
| Im not sure if they confiscate their passports or not like
| in Dubai but i think they still do those contracts where
| they have to pay an agent and work off their debts.
|
| A fair number die because of lax health and safety that is
| lax because theyre "only banglas".
|
| If there are differences in how theyre treated vs dubai
| theyre more a matter of degree than character. Theyre very
| much at the bottom of singapore's racial hierarchy.
|
| Theres the occasional case of maid slavery as well.
| projectazorian wrote:
| > Im not sure if they confiscate their passports or not
| like in Dubai but i think they still do those contracts
| where they have to pay an agent and work off their debts.
|
| Yes, most laborers are working off a debt to their agent.
| Confiscating passports is technically illegal, but very
| common in practice.
|
| Safety regulations are tighter than in the Middle East,
| although still lax by the standards of most other
| developed countries.
|
| People can report labor rights violations to the
| government, which sometimes even investigates them and
| takes action. But they are mostly content to turn a blind
| eye unless something is very egregious, and labor rights
| NGOS are understaffed and underfunded. And strikes are
| effectively illegal.
|
| Unlike in the Middle East you can leave the country
| without your employer's permission, but this might be
| easier said than done in a lot of cases.
|
| So, more indentured servitude than slavery. Still not
| great.
| rr888 wrote:
| Kinda weird to see maid salaries ranked by race
| https://transfermaids.com/blogs/maid-salary-singapore.
| Myanmar maids should have at least 1 day off per month.
| rayiner wrote:
| Bangladeshis are low-status migrant workers all over Asia
| and the Middle East, and deal with the poor working
| conditions that come with that. And they're often targets
| of racism, because racism isn't as taboo outside the
| western world. But the situation in the
| Emirates/Qatar/etc is completely different than
| Singapore. Unless you're taking the tack that "all
| capitalism is de facto slavery" or something like that,
| the term really only applies to the former, not to
| Singapore.
| pydry wrote:
| It's not completely different. The whole thing where they
| put them in debt, stuff them in dormitories, keep them on
| a tight leash, work them half to death, neglect health
| and safety and neglect them medically when theyre injured
| is the same in both countries.
|
| In dubai/qatar they just do it more and worse and also
| like to confiscate their passports (although technically
| thats illegal now...).
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| > Singapore doesn't have the de facto slavery problem of
| the Emirates, though.
|
| Singapore imports a lot of Indian (and other South Asian),
| SEA, Chinese migrant labor as well, to live in conditions
| that are not great. I mean, not as bad as emirates, but not
| that great either:
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-
| professionals...
|
| https://www.economist.com/asia/2021/06/19/singapores-
| migrant... (recent treatment during COVID lockdowns)
|
| > Food is definitely better in Dubai.
|
| Singaporean hawker centres are pretty world famous.
| odiroot wrote:
| To me, it would be a true paradise, if it was feasible to rent
| a (whole) flat as a foreigner.
| bitwize wrote:
| I remember this best as the essay in which Gibson compares
| Singapore to the burbclaves from _Snow Crash_ , which struck me
| as the literary equivalent of when a band plays the Weird Al
| spoof of their own song. (Don McLean and Barenaked Ladies are
| known to have done this.)
| [deleted]
| rayiner wrote:
| As someone from Bangladesh, I read this and think "who cares?" In
| 1960 Singapore was a poor third world country. Today it's as rich
| as the US. You cannot understand how significant such a change is
| to the people of the country unless you've lived in a third world
| country and really seen what it's like. Whatever draconian
| measures it took to get there, they were worth it.
|
| Fareed Zakaria's interview with Lee Kuan Yew, the country's
| modern founder, is required reading for pretty much anyone hoping
| to understand the developing world, multiculturalism, etc.
| https://www.jstor.org/stable/20045923
| [deleted]
| trhway wrote:
| >multiculturalism
|
| unfortunately that word more and more means "your universal
| human rights don't apply here". Many cultures across the world
| are decades and even centuries behind when it comes to human
| rights. The naturally authoritarian regimes there are usually
| don't care that much about the culture and only using that word
| to protect their power as the societal move forward to progress
| threatens that power. Among the most glaring examples these
| days - traditionalist/conservative Russia using tremendous
| violence trying to reign in the Ukrainian people's move to
| progress with Russia being one of the leaders today in the use
| of "multiculturalism" as a guise to cover its violence.
| themaninthedark wrote:
| >your universal human rights
|
| Are a lie. You only have the rights that you are able to
| wrest away from your government and those are far from
| universal.
|
| Look at freedom of speech for example, then try to criticize
| the royal family when in Thailand.
|
| Of look at your "right to self-defense", then look at how
| several western countries are acting in that regard. Or NYC
| even.
|
| The US constitution states that only the powers enumerated
| are given to the government and everything else is reserved
| for the people. But look at how we act when our political
| adversaries are silenced or trampled, "Show me where in the
| constitution you have that right". We are willing to throw
| away our power to hurt those we find distasteful.
|
| There is nothing universal about rights, except that you must
| win them through struggle and guard them jealously
| rayiner wrote:
| It's quite remarkable to me that the concept of "universal
| human rights" has made the jump from its Judeo-Christian
| origin--where there is a universal God to which to ascribe
| these universal rights--to secular thought. I don't expect
| "universal human rights" are anything that would show up in
| an autopsy or other empirical investigation?
|
| Where do these "universal human rights" come from? Who
| decides what they are? It's hard to overlook the fact that,
| in practice, "universal human rights" means "the morals
| beliefs of people of European descent." (Observe the
| downvotes to my comment below describing how Asians view the
| obligations of children to their parents.)
| anigbrowl wrote:
| I dare you to make this same argument in the context of the
| 2nd Amendment and see how well it goes down with your
| conservative friends.
| aerostable_slug wrote:
| Natural law does not depend upon religious orthodoxy,
| though it is often associated with it. One can defend
| natural rights from the perspective of being inherent in
| our existence as rational beings rather than Sky-King's
| (Sky-Kingses' for the polytheistic?) decree.
|
| Further, large numbers of people with at least some
| theistic leanings were/are nevertheless adherents to legal
| positivism, which explains how you can have Catholics or
| Lutherans that were okay with the Nuremberg Laws, for
| example.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| >I read this and think "who cares?"
|
| I'm not sure what you were expecting or what what angle you
| were approaching this article from.
|
| There's more to life than economics and politics. I thought it
| was an interesting piece of history (especially as a Gibson
| fan) and also thought provoking aesthetic critique.
| 12many wrote:
| If you read his comment a little further you'll see his
| point... "You cannot understand how significant such a change
| is to the people of the country unless you've lived in a
| third world country and really seen what it's like"... to
| spell it out for you, he's saying no one from the once third
| world cares what Gibson thinks of Singapore because if you
| haven't lived 3rd world you don't understand the greatness
| that comes from Singapore now. Although I don't agree with
| the draconian measures taken, I can support that they're
| happier now than before, something most people from first
| world countries fail to see, because you have no idea what
| it's like living in a third world.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| But I don't think the criticism was ever about economic
| development, or hell, even general happiness in Singapore.
|
| Gibson even said "Singapore's destiny will be to become
| nothing more than a smug, neo-Swiss enclave of order and
| prosperity, amid a sea of unthinkable... weirdness."
|
| It was a commentary on culture and human behavior, an
| orthogonal topic.
|
| He wasn't suggesting Singapore sacrifice economics for
| culture, or as far as I can tell, making any suggestion at
| all.
|
| It is weird that so many people conflate the topics, as if
| art, history, and as Gibson would put it "weirdness" are
| inherently in conflict with material prosperity.
| bergenty wrote:
| But you can agree that living under a draconian authoritarian
| government is not ideal? Maybe it is to abject povert but still
| not something to hold up as an epitome of utopia? That's what
| this article does. Did good things? Yes. Got there in a way
| people want to continue to live? A resounding no.
| [deleted]
| claudiawerner wrote:
| It's interesting that most responses I see day to day in
| regards to cultural and social critiques is generally to fall
| back on a line similar to "at least it's not X" where the
| comparable features are oriented solely around the amount of
| wealth, and quite often, not even a concern for how that wealth
| is distributed.
|
| >Whatever draconian measures it took to get there, they were
| worth it.
|
| I feel as though most lovers of liberty would disagree with
| this statement, whether it comes from the right wing or the
| left wing; it could justify literally any horror to humanity,
| and at worst justifies waiting out decades of repression and
| poor quality of life for anticipated gains for two generations
| of people down the line. I'm reminded that a similar argument
| is used to justify the maintenance of sweatshops.
| andrepd wrote:
| The usual fallacy, which you also make in your post, is
| assuming that none of that improvement would have happened
| under a free and democratic regime. That all improvements were
| _because_ of iron-rule authoritarianism.
|
| Of course there are quite literally thousands of reasons that
| explain Singapore's economic growth. Attributing everything to
| only one of them, to the influence of an enlightened dictator,
| is silly.
|
| Want an opposite anecdote? In my country we experienced our
| greatest transformation in centuries in our first ~20 years of
| democracy. The country is radically different now from what it
| was 50 years ago, and it only happened when democracy and civil
| liberties suddenly and unexpectedly came into the picture.
| rayiner wrote:
| It's not an assumption, but a conclusion based on the
| evidence. I'm not aware of any Asian, African, or middle
| eastern country where freedom and democracy led to
| prosperity. There's lots of democracies in these places that
| haven't been able to translate that into prosperity. On the
| flip side, China, Japan, Korea, and Singapore are all
| examples where authoritarian rule has led to prosperity. I'd
| include Bangladesh these days as an example of that also.
|
| If the country you're using as an example is in Eastern
| Europe, I think you may be overlooking key differences.
| Fareed Zakaria addresses this in his book "the Future of
| Freedom." https://www.amazon.com/Future-Freedom-Illiberal-
| Democracy-Re.... He explains that many of the foundations of
| liberal democracy were put in place during autocratic
| regimes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Future_of_Freedom.
| Eastern Europe had many building blocks of democracy in place
| hundreds of years ago. For example
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossacks.
| DubiousPusher wrote:
| Authoritarianism led Japan into a war which utterly
| destroyed its economy. I'm not sure you can count that as a
| win for the jackboot.
| zenogantner wrote:
| Hong Kong had what one could call a starting position
| comparable to Singapore after WWII and managed to become
| prosperous with arguably more liberal policies -- until the
| handover to the PRC -- and came out prosperous, too.
|
| Is Hong Kong now more prosperous, after it moved to
| authoritarian rule?
|
| What are your criteria for "authoritarian", that you count
| Japan among authoritarian countries?
|
| What is your evidence that the authoritarian policies were
| the deciding factor in generating prosperity for these
| countries?
| whoooooo123 wrote:
| Where are you from?
| pydry wrote:
| The key features that made it fantastically rich were sitting
| on one of the world's most strategically located ports,
| building a lot of soviet style housing and a leader with
| nowhere to run.
|
| Being a city state means it's hard to hide when things get
| ugly. Having capitals far away from citizenry, on the other
| hand - like in myanmar or brazil, makes it easy to be corrupt.
| This is a well studied phenomenon.
|
| Lee Kuan Yew was palpably afraid in 1965 - especially of the
| domestic communists. That was probably a good thing in most
| respects - he knew he had to improve living standards or he'd
| be strung up. He did, partly by following the good advice of
| albert winsemius.
|
| It also led to his authoritarian streak and his censor happy
| ways, of course. The fear ran both ways.
|
| 1950s america was also a time where elites were palpably
| fearful of domestic communists. It also combined with fast
| improving living standards and the largest scale house building
| to date. That might just all be a giant coincidence though.
| rayiner wrote:
| Ascribing Singapore's wealth to its location as a strategic
| port is more than a bit odd, considering its always been
| where it is, but hasn't been rich this whole time. In
| classical times Chittagong, the port city where my dad went
| to college, was one of the most important ports in the world.
| But that didn't prevent Bangladesh from being one of the
| poorest countries in the world in modern times. Clearly there
| is more at work.
|
| The geography of Singapore gets thrown around a lot to
| detract from how much Lee Kuan Yew's deliberate decisions
| made Singapore what it is today. Which is a shame because
| that makes it hard for other developing countries to learn
| from Singapore's example.
| pydry wrote:
| It _was_ rich while the British ran the place and they
| founded the city coz its a good place for a port. The
| locals just didnt see much of that wealth.
|
| I find the geography doesnt really get thrown around a lot.
| Lee Kuan Yew's boasts that the city became rich despite "no
| natural resources" does though, which i find to be
| misleading.
|
| There is obviously more to the story than just the port but
| it's important to understand the inbuilt advantages the
| city did have given the obvious incentive to "replicate"
| what happened, especially when the story told by the
| island's cult of personality was so keen to downplay them
| in favor of his genius leadership and the grit and
| determination of the people.
|
| (I say cult of personality because I queued up to see his
| dead body lying in state... and the experience with him,
| mao, kim jong il and kim il sung wasnt all that different)
|
| Most of the economic development was critically dependent
| upon the port and its status as a transshipment hub at a
| global crossroads. Getting Shell to build a refinery in
| cape town or bhutan would have been a lot harder.
| ilrwbwrkhv wrote:
| This. Geopolitics is everything.
| Daishiman wrote:
| The ruling class' lack of fear of legitimate backlash by the
| working class seems certainly like a good thesis to explain
| the modern Western world's increasing inequality.
| sib wrote:
| 1950's America also benefited from having created the biggest
| wartime production economy the world had ever seen, combined
| with most other "advanced" economies having been turned to
| rubble. At the end of WWII, the US's GDP was greater than the
| rest of the world combined.
| andrepd wrote:
| >Being a city state means it's hard to hide when things get
| ugly. Having capitals far away from citizenry, on the other
| hand - like in myanmar or brazil, makes it easy to be
| corrupt. This is a well studied phenomenon.
|
| Fascinating, I'd never really thought of this. Do you have a
| link to any studies about this phenomenon?
| mc32 wrote:
| The key is a benevolent "dictator(ship)". A benevolent
| dictator, from a most utility PoV is better than random search
| for good government via imperfect democracy.
|
| There is little question that a few countries in Asia
| benefitted from authoritarianism, some were more kid glovish
| than others, and obviously some were more violent than others
| in suppressing dissent. However, they achieved economic success
| for their people --though not all. The Philippines are an
| example where corruption as well as high pop growth dragged
| down progress. China too, initially was too authoritarian and
| too ideological, till they opened up their economy, or at least
| removed much of the stigma against "wealth" and invited foreign
| investment.
| sammalloy wrote:
| > The Philippines are an example where corruption as well as
| high pop growth dragged down progress. China too, initially
| was too authoritarian and too ideological
|
| One aspect about this topic that I've never seen discussed
| anywhere, is the bidirectional relationship between
| countries, such as how authoritarian and corrupt countries
| export their authoritarianism and corruption to other
| countries in the same way that the US exports their weapons,
| capitalism, entertainment, and soft power, but very rarely,
| if ever, their "freedom", as if that's the one thing, in
| spite of the excessive rhetoric, that isn't fungible.
|
| For an example of what I'm talking about, much of the
| political chaos and tendency towards authoritarianism in the
| US that we've seen in the post-9/11 era, has been imported
| from autocratic and authoritarian regimes. From what I've
| read, the first reports of massive online political trolling
| operations outside of Russia and China were first observed
| and reported on from the Philippines at the beginning of the
| Obama admin in the US.
|
| Interviews with regional human rights groups at the time
| noted that the trolling operations in the Philippines were
| being used in the same way as repressive regimes in the
| Middle East had previously used them--to deliberately spread
| conspiracy theories so as to destabilize the information held
| by the electorate and to shift the power from independent
| media sources that provide checks and balances on power to
| authoritarian regimes which relied on the conspiracy theories
| to foment confusion and consolidate hegemony.
|
| We saw the same thing occur in the US beginning in 2016, with
| the rise of Trumpism and its associated conspiracy theories
| known as QAnon. Was it just a coincidence that their origin
| point was also the Philippines?
| mc32 wrote:
| I think it's coincidence. Coopting narrative and driving
| narrative were pioneered in modern times at least by Lenin
| and others --this tool was later copied by Mussolini and
| Goebbels. It's a tool that is known to work well to split
| people apart as a part of divide and conquer strategy.
|
| Trolling though, that is also not new. The VoA and North
| Korean campaigns, to name but two, have promoted all kinds
| of destabilizing theories. The difference is the media used
| --Duterte used it to great success and so did ISIS.
| pessimizer wrote:
| > China too, initially was too authoritarian and too
| ideological, till they opened up their economy
|
| Too authoritarian and too ideological China lifted more
| people out of poverty faster than had previously happened on
| the planet. The problem was that Mao was insulated from
| information and his intentions were filtered through a
| corrupt collection of creeps who surrounded him, his wife
| being one of the worst. It eventually made him completely out
| of touch, and even his intentions became bizarre. The opening
| of the economy saved a country on fire, and wouldn't have
| been needed if they had established a proper system with
| proper succession and safeguards against corruption.
|
| Removing stigma against wealth seriously damaged China
| culturally; instead of unity in beliefs and values, they
| drifted into boring nationalism. They used to fight for each
| other, now they fight for China.
| rektide wrote:
| Keeping your dictators benevolent across decades and
| generations has proven a significantly hard problem. Even
| that give this form of government, in my view, far far too
| much credit.
|
| Singapore is a rare contemporary example of a city-state, & I
| think that makes the scenario very different from most cases.
| Using this as an example seems ill suited.
|
| Let's compare to one of your other cited cases, Philippines.
| Both experienced to degrees the wave of modernization
| following WW2, a moment of great possibility. Singapore is a
| very small nation, 1/4 the size of the smallest US State,
| Rhode Island. Sinagpore is positioned nicely amid a number of
| other countries giving it close trade access, and at the sea-
| most tip of a major intercontinental route. The Philippines
| is almost 100x bigger, about on par with Nevada, the 7th
| largest state, with much more space & population to tend to.
| Philippines is non-continugous in extreme, a nation of many
| islands, further exarcerbating the difficulty of effective
| governance. Philippines are isolated by a couple hundred
| miles of sea from other nations, and located rather at the
| edge of the map.
|
| Singapore is one of the few city-states left on this planet,
| and it was one permitted to strain & grow at a crucial
| inflection point in human history.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| sirshmooey wrote:
| I remember seeing an interview with Lee Kuan Yew and the idea of
| our 1st amendment rights were brought up and Mr. Yew began to
| laugh.
| moomoo11 wrote:
| These kinds of places are way too creepy/cringey for me. Grew up
| in such a culture, putting authority on a pedestal and doing as
| you're told is childish behavior and frankly boring. It also
| leads to people having tons of pent up/stored ego that makes it
| impossible to rationally deal with them when they just expect you
| to do as you're told or accept their bad ideas.
|
| I much prefer being somewhere that has everything- grimey to
| super nice and flashy. Makes life more interesting and there are
| more opportunities.
| lliamander wrote:
| > I much prefer being somewhere that has everything- grimey to
| super nice and flashy.
|
| The psychological trait of Orderliness definitely plays into
| both the aesthetic qualities and the deference to authority
| within a society.
|
| I prefer the clean and flashy aesthetic to a grimey one, but I
| probably prefer a more natural, organic aesthetic to either.
|
| While I think many politically right-leaning people (like
| myself) see a lot to admire in Singapore, my own response is
| more measured. Like you noted, the authoritarian nature of such
| a state can come across as paternalistic, whereas I would
| rather be treated as an autonomous adult.
| [deleted]
| yieldcrv wrote:
| Wired source article:
|
| https://www.wired.com/1993/04/gibson-2/
| zjordan1 wrote:
| Very interesting, thank you for sharing.
| abigail95 wrote:
| I would live in Singapore full time if it wasn't so fucking hot.
|
| How can they have such prosperity with such a low tax rate and no
| natural resources?
| vkou wrote:
| > How can they have such prosperity with such a low tax rate
| and no natural resources?
|
| Cheap foreign labour, long work hours, and a strategically
| important location.
| Tossrock wrote:
| Their natural resource is their strategic location on the
| Straits of Malacca. Massive trade volumes pass through the
| area, which brings wealth.
| randallsquared wrote:
| Low tax rate seems like a contributing factor to prosperity,
| though?
| rurp wrote:
| I wasn't familiar with this phrase, but I can see why it has
| stuck. My first thought before clicking the article was that it
| referred to some place like Abu Dhabi or Riyadh; a middle eastern
| city that seems clean and safe, if you're in the right social
| class, but with horrific abuses happening out of the spotlight.
| Now that I think about it, this could describe an awful lot of
| cities and countries in the world.
| fatnoah wrote:
| That's fascinating. I spent a few days in Singapore on business
| in early 2002, and while my impression wasn't quite so bleaks as
| described in the article, my main impression was that parts of it
| were very much like something out of the World Showcase at Disney
| World.
| _dain_ wrote:
| The real Disneyland also has the death penalty, since it is
| located in the state of California. Disneyworld likewise, since
| it is in Florida.
| function_seven wrote:
| Technically, yeah. But not really.
|
| In the last 30 years, Singapore has executed more than 400
| people (Wikipedia has stats for 470, but is also missing the
| counts for many years.) Most for drug offenses. In the same
| time-frame, California has executed 13 people. And none in the
| last 16 years, and none for drug offenses.
| wizofaus wrote:
| California also has 7 times the population of Singapore. None
| of which invalidates the fact that California does, in fact,
| have the death penalty, in marked contrast to most of the
| Western world.
| aerostable_slug wrote:
| Not in practice.
|
| The brand-new death house was mothballed (which really
| means locked closed) on orders of the governor. There's
| been some talk over vacating death sentences, but courts
| are really reticent to do that while the penalty remains on
| the books, even if it's not enforced. If the state
| rescinded Newsom's moratorium, there's still a court-
| ordered moratorium that would remain in effect (once again
| proving that most things Gavin Newsom does are just for
| show, because California has always just been a stepping-
| stone to DC for him).
|
| Condemned prisoners in CDCR custody are slowly being
| transferred to other maximum security facilities where they
| will have the opportunity to "program" along with other
| felons with long sentences (i.e. take advantage of
| educational, religious, vocational, and related
| opportunities rather than just wait to be led to the
| gurney). Death Row at San Quentin is scheduled to be
| repurposed in some way, though the state's Death Row for
| women is just another housing unit for segregated inmates
| at the women's facility in Chowchilla.
|
| t. my present day job involves the corrections
| system/industry.
| wizofaus wrote:
| Strikes me as something that could change quickly with a
| change of government though...either way, I don't think I
| could ever be OK with the idea that it's legal for a
| government to execute its own citizens.
| mbg721 wrote:
| The percentage of California which is Disneyland is not
| large, by area or population.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| In this analogy Disney is the Singaporean government. Disney
| can not directly enforce the death penalty, Singapore can. So
| the author wants you to image Singapore as a Disneyland that
| could directly carry out execution. There is little justice
| system in-between.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| This is also William Gibson, who is heavy on dystopia in his
| science fiction work.
| oxfeed65261 wrote:
| The 1993 Wired article, by William Gibson:
| https://www.wired.com/1993/04/gibson-2/ or
| https://archive.ph/twY5Y
| antod wrote:
| That issue was my first intro to Wired when I spotted it on a
| coffee table and was intrigued by the Disneyland line. It was
| probably another year after that before I actually used the
| internet - after reading a few Wired magazines, I wasn't really
| sure what to expect...
| AdmiralAsshat wrote:
| Thanks! This is the perfect sort of longform article to save
| via Pocket/Instapaper and read later on my e-reader.
| Bendy wrote:
| The irony wasn't lost on me ;)
| andrepd wrote:
| One of my favourite Kobo features ;)
| aschismatic wrote:
| Can you elaborate on the feature you're referencing? I'm
| currently looking at getting a new e-reader and am
| specifically debating between the Kindle Paperwhite and the
| Kobo Libra 2.
| russellbeattie wrote:
| I wanted to see the original magazine print, but surprisingly,
| I can't find a single download of any of the 1990s issues
| anywhere. Archive.org's earliest is from 2000 (below). Seems
| amazing no one has scanned and shared back issues. If anyone
| has a link, please share!
|
| https://archive.org/details/wired-2001_02/page/n65/mode/2up
| hackeraccount wrote:
| I've been to Singapore twice for pretty short stays but I came
| away describing it (without having read Gibson's article) as
| Disney Land without the rides. My peak Singapore experience was
| going to a club (No lie. DJ Jazzy Jeff was there.) and wandering
| out of the place late at night wandering around trying to figure
| out where the hotel was. Here's the thing. Strange City. Middle
| of the night. I felt totally safe and I'm pretty sure I was.
|
| Compare that to the city I live in. It's safe enough during the
| day but at night you need to know where you are down to the block
| and be aware of your surroundings.
|
| Honestly if I had a job there and could convince my wife I'd move
| to Singapore - it's not the Switzerland of Asia but it's
| something close to that.
| ThinkBeat wrote:
| The safety aspect is quite similar in Japan from what I
| experienced in 2001- 2002 in Tokyo.
|
| At least the areas I have been in. (Which would be 1% of Japan
| maybe) I could not believe they had vending machines that sold
| laptops and other highly expensive items.
|
| That thing would be robbed hours after it was mounted where I
| come from.
|
| I have been told a couple of times, that if you commit violent
| crime against someone in Tokyo you need to be more worried
| about reprisals from organized crime than from the police.
|
| I presume it is an urban myth but coming from the US it is hard
| to imagine how Japan is able to keep the streets as safe as
| they do.
| nireyal wrote:
| There's much to love about Singapore if you understand, or are
| willing to learn, Asian culture. It's more collectivist than
| individualistic and while that certainly comes with trade offs,
| it has many benefits. I've lived here for almost 3 years and it
| feels like living in the future. No where is perfect but the
| quality of life here is amazing. The people I know who don't like
| it are almost always white folks who don't interact with locals
| and don't want to understand Asian norms.
| standardUser wrote:
| Is the large South Asia underclass part of that "collectivist"
| nature? It's an awesome country (I visited for several weeks in
| the 90's) but I always cringe when people start talking
| positively about collectivism in highly stratified societies.
| pydry wrote:
| 3 years was about how long it took me to really loathe the
| place.
|
| There was an excessive deference towards authority (derived
| from confucianism, i think) that rubbed me up the wrong way and
| a definite streak of selfishness/uncaringness that permeated
| the culture. Also that shallow vapid wealth-worshipping thing
| that "crazy rich asians" captured so accurately.
|
| I remember the way foreign workers were treated was just
| brutal, too. I was there for the bus driver strikes and the
| little india riot and i was appalled by how thuggish the
| authorities acted in both cases while everyone else just
| shrugged.
|
| Plenty of casual racism lurking under the surface too, although
| white people are probably more of a beneficiary of that than a
| victim. This is perhaps partly why so many love the place.
| nireyal wrote:
| Also, it's a great place to do business, education is top
| notch, virtually no crime, very ethnically diverse, amazing
| food, and a few hours flight to anywhere from Bali to Bombay.
| robhunter wrote:
| Can you give some examples of Asian norms?
| rayiner wrote:
| Parents get to have a lot of say in how their kids live their
| lives (career, marriage, etc). Americans and their "you can't
| tell me what to do, all you did was give me life and nurture
| me for two decades" attitude drives me completely nuts.
| blargey wrote:
| The necessary assumption for "children owe me for raising
| them" is "I have no obligation to raise or nurture my
| children".
| beisner wrote:
| On the flip side, the child didn't consent to being born,
| and indirectly any suffering a child endures can be traced
| back to a parent's decision to bring them into the world.
| buscoquadnary wrote:
| Under that logic and reasoning any joy or happiness the
| child experiences can also be traced back to the parents
| decision to bring them into the world.
| rayiner wrote:
| Focusing on the choice of the individual child is a very
| American way of looking at things. Nobody chooses to be
| born. So what? The obligation arises out of the
| relationship between parents, as a category, and
| children, as a category. Individual choice doesn't carry
| nearly as much weight in Asian culture as it does in
| American culture. Likewise, the notion that obligations
| can only arise from voluntary and consenting exchange--as
| if it's an economic transaction--is one that doesn't make
| much sense in Asian culture.
| beisner wrote:
| Sure; my point is that both perspectives are equally
| arbitrary. Neither drive me nuts.
| rayiner wrote:
| I didn't say it wasn't arbitrary--culture often is. My
| point is that as someone steeped in the asian way of
| thinking about it, the cultural conflict with the
| American mode of thinking is really significant.
| foodslave wrote:
| If we're to be that reductionist, they could take their
| own life and solve their suffering.
|
| In choosing not to, we can infer their approval of having
| been born.
| 12many wrote:
| Think conservative values on a social scale minus the
| personal property part(don't know if the personal property is
| a general consensus or just authoritarian laws.) Drugs are
| forbidden, fathers rule the household, children are
| disciplined when they don't meet satisfaction, you're
| expected to work hard. You know all the things the
| conservatives get a bad rap for in the US but everyone thinks
| that way there and uses it in collectivism
| notahacker wrote:
| Family-oriented social conservatism, instinctive obedience to
| authority and disinterest in political debate mostly. A lot
| of it actually bottom up rather than top down.
|
| Obviously this clashes quite hard with cyberpunk using the
| aesthetic of Asia for characters who epitomise American ideas
| of rebellion, competition and countercultural coolness...
| mcguire wrote:
| No chewing gum in public among other things.
| 2-718-281-828 wrote:
| that is NOT an asian norm ...
|
| Google "chinese spitting" [1] and then extrapolate form
| there.
|
| [1] f.x.: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-
| devon-22184499
| mcguire wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewing_gum_sales_ban_in_Si
| nga...
| falcolas wrote:
| I'm not sure if this is one the parent was thinking of - but
| there's generally a huge culture of "don't inconvenience
| others." This can have a lot of knock on effects, like
| leaving early (really, leaving before others) from work is
| inconveniencing your peers and your boss.
|
| Also, "filial duty" is pretty strong across a number of Asian
| cultures. i.e. you should be thinking of your family
| (parents, grandparents) before yourself.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| > This can have a lot of knock on effects, like leaving
| early (really, leaving before others) from work is
| inconveniencing your peers and your boss.
|
| Does this go the other way too? Is the boss staying late
| (with the expectation that others do so as well) considered
| rude because it inconveniences his workers?
|
| Because if not, this has nothing to do with being polite
| and everything to do with power and deference to power.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| I think it really depends on what you like in a location. Like
| Gibson stated:
|
| >Singapore's destiny will be to become nothing more than a
| smug, neo-Swiss enclave of order and prosperity, amid a sea of
| unthinkable ... weirdness.
|
| There is a lot to like in a "neo-Swiss enclave of order and
| prosperity".
| smcf wrote:
| Last month I visited Singapore for close to two weeks. I kept
| thinking about this essay, because in some sense it captures the
| Singapore vibe, but in another I think it unjustifiably
| pigeonholes it.
|
| I brought a dressy Seiko watch with me, on the off chance I might
| want to go to a nice restaurant. I ended up wearing it daily
| after the first few days. There was an was almost subconscious
| pressure to fit in with the majority of men who wore fancy-
| looking (by American standards) watches casually. Among the
| women, I've never seen so many designer handbags in use anywhere
| (and I saw a fair amount of men carrying more masculine-styled
| bags from big-name brands as well). Yes, there is something in
| the cultural air that feels stifling. Fitting in with the crowd
| feels high-status there, whereas (to me) it feels kind of low-
| status in the States.
|
| I think part of the reason this vibe feels so visible is the use
| of English. I pointed out to a friend I was traveling with an
| advertisement for a financial planning seminar for young couples
| as embodying something Singaporean (in America, the only people I
| could see attending a financial planning seminar are retirees,
| mainly attracted by the free dinner at Ruth's Chris). Like, every
| aspect of Singaporean life could be encapsulated and taught to
| others through some medium (seminar, book, TV show...). My
| friend, who is Chinese, said "oh that's just Asia." An anecdote,
| maybe, but it made me wonder if this aspect was not a uniquely
| Singaporean one, but one we only internalize in its context
| because we can read the billboards and understand the ads playing
| on the taxi radio.
|
| So in that sense, Gibson was right. But then I went to Geylang.
| It feels like a different country. The place was tangled in dusty
| exposed electrical wires, and thronged with young people in more
| working-class casual garb hanging out. Grumpy restaurateurs, even
| a sex trade of mixed legality were also present. Despite this, it
| all still feels very safe, but it also feels very low-budget and
| safety-off. If your explore Singaporean social media a little,
| you'll find lots of videos of other under-the-surface stuff --
| illegally modified motorcycle clubs, brawls on HDB void decks and
| the like. The atmosphere really changes around the island's
| widely varying spaces.
|
| And even concerning that part of Singapore which Gibson observed
| -- Singapore runs extremely well. It worked better than any
| American city I've been to. I only saw one traffic jam my entire
| time there (it was blamed on National Day Parade rehearsals),
| while the public transit is cheap and everywhere. You really have
| to see it to believe it; it's a marvel of central city planning
| that, unlike American city planning, actually results in a better
| city that works. The presence of government feels heavy-handed at
| times (there are police cameras _everywhere_ ), but at the same
| time it oozes competence in a way that American public projects
| don't even come close to.
|
| If you're a freewheeling artist like Gibson, I can see how it
| could feel stifling. But for a professional, even in software
| (known to attract misfits), it really felt like a top-tier place
| to get work done. I think one could adapt to it if they knew when
| to be inventive and when to cool it and go with the flow.
| asiachick wrote:
| I find this to be some of the most racist shit I've ever read.
| Gees I can't believe the comments here.
|
| Singapore is one of the safest countries in the world. When I've
| brought up how much I like Singapore someone always retorts "Oh,
| that place where you get arrested for walking down the sidewalk
| and chewing gum" to which I also respond "Well, I could be in the
| USA where I get walk down the sidewalk and get mugged"
|
| Singapore has way better clubs than SF or LA. If you want to
| party hard until late at night it's got plenty of options. Vs
| SF/LA where there's a 2am curfew your options effectively end at
| 1:30am.
|
| Singapore has amazing food options open until 4-5am. Try getting
| food in LA/SF after 11. Your options becoming Dennys and that's
| about it.
|
| Oh but someone said Singapore is boring. Did they actually go?
| For me, having to stop partying at 1:30 way more boring than
| partying til 3-4 am and then heading to a hawker marker for food
| options at 10-15 stands.
|
| Singapore had taxis you could order on apps before Uber existed.
| Singapore has amazing public transportation. MRT lines and busses
| and easy access to reasonably priced taxis.
|
| I get that the government is a little on the strict side but I
| find it hilarious that none of the Apple fans who spout how much
| they love Apple's walled garden don't see the parallels. I like
| places where I can go to a cafe, leave my stuff on the table to
| go-order and not have it stolen. I like it far more than USA
| culture where people have gotten so used to living in an a pit of
| crime that they blame the victim for any theft and there are
| signs everywhere "don't leave anything in your car!" because the
| police/government can't be bothered to do their jobs and instead
| let the baddies run/ruin the city for everyone else. In the USA,
| "oh, your bike got stolen. You're an idiot for not buying a
| better lock or for even thinking it was safe to lock it
| anywhere".
| shard wrote:
| Many good points, but I'd like to nitpick a bit:
|
| > Singapore has way better clubs than SF or LA. If you want to
| party hard until late at night it's got plenty of options. Vs
| SF/LA where there's a 2am curfew your options effectively end
| at 1:30am.
|
| > Try getting food in LA/SF after 11. Your options becoming
| Dennys and that's about it.
|
| In LA, go to K-Town (Korea Town). Many good restaurants,
| lounges, and karaoke places stay open all night long. The party
| doesn't stop at 2AM.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| we don't consider a place with a 70 year old national identity
| to be a distinct race, you might be able to trip up _some_
| Americans on that, but not all of us are that gullible
|
| and then the rest of this tiny city state comparison to two
| municipalities within one state in the US? (Also there are
| plenty of raves in LA that go till dawn, as well as strip
| clubs, card rooms and so on. If you want nightlife its there.)
|
| and then corporate walled garden versus government walled
| garden?
|
| how many things can you conflate at once?
| poundtown wrote:
| thank you
| donkarma wrote:
| "a little on the strict side"
| xdennis wrote:
| Criticizing a country's laws is not racist. If I dislike
| executions in America that doesn't make me racist towards
| Americans.
| baggy_trough wrote:
| Totally agree, there is some mind blowing bigotry in this
| thread. The United States would be lucky to have one city that
| worked half as well for its citizens as Singapore.
| Iv wrote:
| > An aerial shot from 1989 of the squat enclave Kowloon Walled
| City, which Gibson contrasts favourably with Singapore
|
| Huhu
|
| Try living in both.
| notahacker wrote:
| Yep. That's why I'm amazed this article gets reposted so often
| like it's sage wisdom and not a wealthy Western writer
| complaining that Singapore doesn't have enough poverty and
| crime to inspire books about dystopian futures (with a bit on
| Singapore's same-as-all-the-neighbouring-countries draconian
| drug laws lest anyone conclude it sounds quite nice actually)
|
| Not sure Kowloon Walled City was notable for vibrant nightlife,
| producing great art or being merciful to people caught
| competing with local drug cartels either.
| zugi wrote:
| I don't have word count tool on my phone, but does it strike
| others as strange that there's a 1000+ word wikipedia page about
| a 4,500-word article?
| sigstoat wrote:
| the declaration of independence is ~1300 words. a half-assed
| attempt at counting the words in the article (minus of the copy
| of the declaration that it contains) comes up with about ~10900
| words. is that strange?
|
| what ratio isn't strange?
| notahacker wrote:
| tbf the Declaration of Independence was a nation-defining
| historical event, a collaboration involving a lot of people,
| and text which has shaped a couple of centuries of American
| law.
|
| Disneyland with the Death Penalty is a pretty self-
| explanatory magazine article which has somehow ended up with
| a more detailed summary than many of Gibson's novels. Only on
| Wikipedia would that sort of prioritisation be normal.
| sigstoat wrote:
| > Only on Wikipedia would that sort of prioritisation be
| normal.
|
| perhaps if you addressed your concerns to their
| prioritization committee, you could effect some change.
| noah_buddy wrote:
| You think that's bad? Check out the article for the Gettysburg
| Address (272 words).
| cromulent wrote:
| Last time I was there (around 2005) the newspaper reports of FDWs
| (Foreign Domestic Workers) falling to their deaths whilst
| cleaning the outside of highrise windows without safety equipment
| were very disturbing.
|
| Seems it is still happening.
|
| https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/average-of-12-people-...
| [deleted]
| mbg721 wrote:
| I had a friend in school who had a t-shirt that said "Singapore -
| It's a Fine City" on the front, and on the back was a list of
| fines for various offenses.
| voisin wrote:
| They sell these all over town to tourists. I think they're
| proud of it because of the order these fines create.
| bitL wrote:
| Ok, Singapore is a bit sterile ("Singabore"), but contrasting it
| with Kowloon as its authentic opposite is a bit rich...
| xdennis wrote:
| Some people love freedom more than prosperity.
| mikey_p wrote:
| Folks on Hacker News sure seem to bring it up alot:
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
| jonathaneunice wrote:
| The government banning _Wired_ because it contained a critical
| article immediately confirms so much of the criticism.
| [deleted]
| googlryas wrote:
| Not really. They might just not like being lied about.
|
| If I found your social media and started calling you a
| pedophile on it, and you blocked me, would that be a
| confirmation that you're actually a pedophile?
| CobrastanJorji wrote:
| The difference, of course, is that in your metaphor the
| reaction is not related to the critique.
|
| If I created a website called "Singapore Loves Shooting
| Critics" and Singapore responded by shooting me, that would
| be seen as confirmation of the critique.
|
| If I created a website called "Singapore Loves Square
| Dancing" and Singapore responded by shooting me, that would
| be an overreaction but not one that related to the criticism.
| Iv wrote:
| You are not a journalist and I am not a state.
| shiftpgdn wrote:
| What makes a journalist?
| dsr_ wrote:
| Social convention; intent and history.
| whoooooo123 wrote:
| Putting "journalist" in your Twitter bio, at least by
| 2022 standards.
| aemreunal wrote:
| I don't think the example you gave holds. This is how I would
| characterize that:
|
| Blocking someone = not buying Wired magazine so you can't
| read it yourself
|
| Banning someone from the internet = banning Wired magazine so
| no one can ever read it
| googlryas wrote:
| Maybe my example was poorly done, but I think it shares the
| same reasoning flaw that OP had in the original - the
| belief that a very strong denial is somehow evidence of
| guilt. I saw similar logic in a COVID thread recently, with
| someone saying essentially that the lab leak theory must be
| true, because China is denying it so hard. Well, that's
| what innocent people do too when they're wrongly accused of
| something.
| function_seven wrote:
| > _the belief that a very strong denial is somehow
| evidence of guilt._
|
| That's not the evidence of guilt. They can deny it as
| often and as strongly as they want. When they instead ban
| the article in their country, then it's _doing the thing
| they deny they do._
| googlryas wrote:
| When did Singapore claim they don't censor media? There
| is an entire agency (IMDA) devoted to censoring media,
| and it isn't some kind of covert operation.
| solveit wrote:
| Banning the publication of media when accused of
| illiberalism is in fact evidence of illiberalism.
| googlryas wrote:
| The article did much more than accuse them of
| illiberalism. It isn't clear which claim lead to the
| article being banned...or even that it was banned (I
| assume it was, but I can't find a copy of the source, and
| the source is a wired article ostensibly about
| Negroponte). I actually probably have the Mar 1995 Wired
| at my parents house on my book shelf, but unfortunately
| that is 3000 miles away.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| > with someone saying essentially that the lab leak
| theory must be true, because China is denying it so hard.
|
| The Chinese media often denies rumors that turn out to be
| true, for example, a week before Beijing instituted a car
| plate lottery, the local media was busy denying that it
| was going to happen (since everyone was rushing out to
| buy cars). If they took the time to deny something, then
| there has to be something to it right?
|
| But this is more like given a conspiracy theory some life
| by vigorously denying it. If China were more western
| media savvy, they would just ignore the claim as too
| crazy to comment on. IF the USA did similar vigorous
| denials (since it has been suggested that the CIA
| engineered the virus in the lab in the USA) did the same,
| I'm sure people would be talking about that also.
| cma wrote:
| I thought blocking someone prevents them from replying to
| your tweets, and doesn't just prevent you from reading
| their tweets.
| Ferrotin wrote:
| The U.S. also limits foreign control of its media.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| > The government banning _Wired_ because it contained a
| critical article immediately confirms so much of the
| criticism.
|
| and then
|
| > The U.S. also limits foreign control of its media.
|
| Beyond an attempt at a what aboutism, I'm not sure how these
| two statements are really connected. Just because Xinhua
| can't purchase Foxnews (which is ironically controlled by an
| Australian), the USA government lacks the legal power to ban
| anything except maybe child porn.
| beautifulfreak wrote:
| Reminds me of Kurt Vonnegut's joke from 1972 about the Republican
| National Convention in Miami. "It's Disneyland under martial
| law." https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2005/1/14/85582/-
| mcguire wrote:
| " _The Singaporean government banned Wired upon the publication
| of the issue. The phrase "Disneyland with the death penalty" came
| to stand internationally for an authoritarian and austere
| reputation that the city-state found difficult to shake off._"
|
| Gosh, I wonder why that would be a hard reputation to get rid of?
| [deleted]
| babypuncher wrote:
| > Singapore, Gibson details, is lacking any sense of creativity
| or authenticity, absent of any indication of its history or
| underground culture.
|
| Gibson ascribes this to the fairly authoritarian nature of the
| Singapore government, but I think a much bigger contributor to
| this feeling is simply the age of everything there.
|
| I think the "culprit" is the fact that they experienced a
| tremendous amount of growth and socio-economic upward momentum in
| an incredibly small amount of time. This means that in any given
| neighborhood, every structure you can see was likely built within
| a decade or two of any other visible structure. It's not like
| London or even New York City which grew organically and slowly
| over centuries.
|
| You can wander around the endless seas of identical strip-malls
| and suburban neighborhoods that have exploded in places like Utah
| and Texas over the last 20-30 years for a similar feeling of
| emptiness and homogeneity.
| picodguyo wrote:
| Some of you may be too young to remember the context of this. In
| 1993, an American was sentenced to be caned for what would be
| considered minor offenses in America.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_P._Fay
|
| There was a huge media frenzy in the run-up to the punishment.
| Then he got caned, had a sore bottom, and life went on.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| Caning is more than "sore bottom" -- a few strikes break the
| skin and it typically leaves scars.
| [deleted]
| paulpauper wrote:
| It sounds bad, and it is, until you realize that he was
| stealing street signs, which is a crime in probably any
| country, not just Singapore. TBH, who decides to steal street
| signs in a foreign country?
|
| _Under the 1966 Vandalism Act, originally passed to curb the
| spread of political graffiti and which specifically penalized
| vandalism of government property,[1] Fay was sentenced on March
| 3, 1994, to four months in jail, a fine of S$3,500 (US$2,814 or
| PS2,114 at the time), and six strokes of the cane.[6] Shiu, who
| pleaded not guilty, was sentenced to eight months in prison and
| 12 strokes of the cane.[7]_
|
| Yes, the US does not cane people but it also has a death
| penalty, bad prison conditions relative to other g-20 nations
| (solitary confinement for example), and people get long
| sentences for recidivism, or for certain felonies, or under 3
| strikes laws. I think there is room for improvement for many
| countries, not just Singapore. He was sentenced 4 months for
| stealing the signs, which is commensurate with a misdemeanor in
| the US (1 year max).
| aidenn0 wrote:
| > It sounds bad, and it is, until you realize that he was
| stealing street signs, which is a crime in probably any
| country, not just Singapore. TBH, who decides to steal street
| signs in a foreign country?
|
| He was living with his mother in Singapore, so while he was a
| US citizen, he was stealing street signs "at home."
|
| Also vandalism and theft of street signs is certainly quite
| common in St Louis, where he lived before moving to
| Singapore.
| warning26 wrote:
| You know, if St Louis had similar penalties for stealing
| street signs, I'll bet there would be a lot less crime
| there overall.
| warning26 wrote:
| _> prison conditions relative to other g-20 nations (solitary
| confinement for example), and people get long sentences for
| recidivism_
|
| If the US would properly apply the death penalty more, that
| would solve most of issues you list. Recidivism necessarily
| goes to zero, no need for solitary, etc.
| userbinator wrote:
| _but it also has a death penalty_
|
| ...which is reserved for far more severe crimes, usually
| murder: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_t
| he_Unit...
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I remember reading that, when he wrote it.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| I have the print copy right here :-0
| russellbeattie wrote:
| Was about to write the same thing. The first few years of Wired
| were incredible. I was both a geek and at that time heavily
| into "desktop publishing" and Wired was a revelation akin to
| discovering a new religious text.
|
| I miss magazines. I rarely read them now, but there was
| something exciting about browsing through a new issue - the ads
| were as interesting as the editorial material. In the best
| magazines, each page flip was a masterpiece of graphic design.
| In our collective transition to online content, we definitely
| lost a lot in terms of the visual language developed for print.
| Though we have high resolution screens now, it doesn't seem to
| be returning. The visual innovations seems to have complete
| moved to video now, and "pages" are now just scrolling text.
|
| Amusingly, I signed up for ACM recently to get access to a
| research paper, and they unexpectedly mailed me their monthly
| magazine. An actual physical printed periodical? Wow. As I was
| reading it, I realized I've become so used to digital screens,
| it felt _weird_ to read. You have to move your eyes up and down
| columns! They don 't just scroll into my line of vision.
| Figures and images are numbered and you have to look around for
| them, they're not just embedded in a carousel in line with the
| text. Took me a minute or two to adjust for real.
| fleddr wrote:
| "Singapore is an authoritarian city"
|
| "No we're not, your literature is now BANNED".
| bnralt wrote:
| I personally found Singapore charming when I was there. It's a
| fascinating mix of several different cultures who all seem to
| retained many of their traditional customs. I never understood
| the sterile critique myself, the city never struck me as such.
|
| Gibson's main critique, from what I can tell, is the lack of much
| of a counterculture similar to what you'd find in the U.S.
| allied-bloc (Europe, U.S., Canada, Japan, South Korea, Australia,
| New Zealand), combined with wealth and modernity that you would
| find in such countries. He compares it to America in the 1950's.
| I can't help but think there's an underlying prejudice in the way
| he and others think countries should develop, where as they get
| richer they should be more like rich countries he's used to
| (ironically enough, the problem for many seems to be that
| Singapore _isn't_ the same as the other developed nations they're
| used to).
|
| Though he does praise the food at the hawker centers, which I can
| at least agree with (and which are far away from any idea of
| sterile and boring).
| brnt wrote:
| Singapore's repression isn't exactly a secret, and if freedom
| is not a purpose to use your wealth for, then I don't see the
| point of wealth.
|
| Counterculture is healthy and natural for many reasons, and its
| absence is a concerning indicator for any nation.
| rayiner wrote:
| This is a very western viewpoint! For most Asian societies,
| "freedom" is a means to an end, not an end in itself. Some
| level of counterculture is inevitable and must be tolerated.
| But folks in Tokyo, for example, wouldn't be happier if their
| society were more like NYC!
| deltree7 wrote:
| bergenty wrote:
| It's repressive if you're an explicit LGBT person. But to
| be very honest, I'm okay with the strict (public)
| conformity. I like the idea of a common cohesive culture
| and don't like the LGBT movement in America at all (though
| I'm totally for people to do whatever in private). As
| humans, it helps to have a "correct path" that everyone in
| society agrees upon as long as it's not exclusive of people
| that cannot change their "condition".
| macawfish wrote:
| I once knew a penpal who grew up in Singapore. They shared
| with me how frustrating the repressive cultural norms and
| strict speech / sexuality laws were. It interfered with
| basic social trust... Like they couldn't be sure if their
| friends were gonna out them intentionally or
| unintentionally for something. I got the feeling they felt
| safe to vent to me and took the chance to do so.
|
| None of this is to say the US doesn't have its own issues
| with authoritarianism and repressive cultural norms. Seems
| like a pretty global thing right now actually.
| projectazorian wrote:
| A lot of Singaporeans are unhappy with things, especially
| in the younger generations. If you've spent any length of
| time there and talked to people it's not hard to pick up
| on. There's a reason the government has turned up the level
| of repression over the past decade.
| deltree7 wrote:
| A lot of younger Americans, Finnish, Swedish, Danish,
| Japanese are pretty unhappy too. Have you talked to them?
| bnralt wrote:
| Singapore isn't noticeably more repressive than other
| countries in South East Asia. All things considered, I'd say
| it probably leans on the more open side, but these things are
| hard to judge. If people want to avoid South East Asia
| altogether because it's systems are too different, they're
| welcome to. But I don't think it makes sense to expect
| everyone to write off the entire region.
|
| As for culture, Gibson is dismissive of their music and gets
| bothered that people in music stores don't recognize the
| Japanese punk band he likes. Rather than being open to the
| local music (which I personally have enjoyed), he's bothered
| that the people he meets aren't following along with the same
| global cosmopolitan trends he's accustomed to.
| pessimizer wrote:
| Repression is a set of vicious laws that strictly punish
| people who step out of line, not a vibe. It's alright to
| enjoy a repressive culture, but odds are it because the
| laws are directed at people who are not you, to keep them
| from bothering you. That's why a good sign of repression is
| presidents-for-life and political dynasties.
|
| You didn't need the laws unless you had a population who
| wanted to do the things.
| rayiner wrote:
| The laws exist to keep the minority of counter culture
| people from disrupting the orderly society enjoyed by the
| majority. Elevating the "rights" of the minority over the
| comfort of the majority is not a universal value.
| pasabagi wrote:
| Eh, if you look at the history of the current state of
| Singapore, it's quite obvious that the repression was in
| no means put in place for any kind of high-minded
| weighing of the needs of the many against the few. It was
| put in place by the regime of Lee Kuan Kew, which was
| every bit as morally bankrupt and shamelessly brutal as
| the man himself.
| bnralt wrote:
| I'm not sure where you're getting "vibes" from. Some
| things are pretty noticeable, like how often you come
| across blocked websites in different countries, what
| countries limit you from bringing in (such as bibles),
| mandated public national anthems, public political
| ideology, mandated social laws, structure of government,
| etc. If you're familiar with the region, you're going to
| come into contact with a lot of these, and Singapore
| isn't one of the more repressive states in the region
| from my experience.
|
| You can even look at capital punishment, which the
| article headline highlights. Most countries in the region
| have it.
| deltree7 wrote:
| Singapore's criticism will always come from 'White Educated
| Liberals'.
|
| If you are earning a comfortable 6 figure salary in a developed
| nation, living in an extremely safe neighborhood with access to
| great education and healthcare, you kind assume all those
| things are easy and the only thing that matters is food/music
| diversity and counter-culture.
|
| For the rest of 7,950,000,000 people on earth, any country that
| provides safety, basic food, health, decent education is a
| heaven and wouldn't mind if their own country is like Singapore
| DubiousPusher wrote:
| I don't think this is a fair observation. I grew up in
| poverty in the U.S. and even in those days I found the
| stories of Singapore's authoritarian oppression disturbing.
| Would I have traded my chilly and mouldering aluminum sides
| trailer for a clean Singaporean public works apartment and a
| jackboot hovering around my ass? I'm not sure I would.
|
| Now, I'm not sure it was as bad as the stories made it sound.
| Let's be real. Some amount of what we heard was
| sensationalized for storytelling effect but don't completely
| discount that people will forgo material comforts for
| dignity, honor and autonomy.
| inopinatus wrote:
| Sorry, your crass and trivially rebutted generalisation
| wasn't quite sweeping or divisive enough. Would you mind
| turning up the gratuitous dogma next time? Parochial culture
| warriors of all shades will thank you.
| bergenty wrote:
| So your argument is authoritarianism is better than abject
| poverty? A lot of the world lives there but when people get
| to a certain standard of living everyone still wants the
| basics that America offers.
| babypuncher wrote:
| Every government is authoritarian to some extent. The
| question is how much liberty are you willing to give up in
| exchange for long-term stability and comfort?
|
| To me, absolute liberty seems to be just as wrong of an
| answer as absolute authoritarianism.
| projectazorian wrote:
| > I can't help but think there's an underlying prejudice in the
| way he and others think countries should develop, where as they
| get richer they should be more like rich countries he's used to
| (ironically enough, the problem for many seems to be that
| Singapore _isn't_ the same as the other developed nations
| they're used to).
|
| Gibson didn't look hard enough; there was definitely
| counterculture in Singapore at the time he wrote the story. A
| bit lazy on his part, but he's not a trained journalist. And
| there still is one now, although much less so than in the 90s.
|
| The vibe I got from my time there is that most Singaporeans who
| are counterculture-inclined just leave for larger countries, in
| the same way a bohemian-inclined Swiss person might move to,
| say, New York or Berlin.
|
| The larger problem Singapore has is that there's very little
| space for the arts in general, let alone counterculture.
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