[HN Gopher] Study finds Wikipedia influences judicial behavior
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Study finds Wikipedia influences judicial behavior
        
       Author : drewem
       Score  : 185 points
       Date   : 2022-07-31 10:06 UTC (12 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (news.mit.edu)
 (TXT) w3m dump (news.mit.edu)
        
       | pyuser583 wrote:
       | A while ago the Oxford English Dictionary wrote a letter to the
       | US Supreme Court asking them not use the OED as an authority.
       | 
       | They said the OED definitions are based on imperfect collections
       | of common use, and aren't "right" or "wrong".
       | 
       | They also said the OED often uses SCOTUS decisions as a source,
       | which creates an incestuous link.
        
         | kemitchell wrote:
         | Really interesting.
         | 
         | I searched for this online, but couldn't find it. Might you
         | have a link handy? Much appreciated!
        
           | notRobot wrote:
           | Not exactly what you're looking for, but a super interesting
           | article from 2013 from the Oxford University Press's Blog:
           | 
           |  _The highest dictionary in the land?_
           | https://blog.oup.com/2013/06/scotus-marriage-definition-
           | dict...
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | czl_my wrote:
       | Related discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32253053
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | asdff wrote:
       | This is a repost from three days ago (190pts, 107 comments):
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32253053
        
       | dukeofdoom wrote:
       | Judges are biased, especially in political cases. Look at the
       | joke of trial in Alex Jone's trial right now to see this. He's
       | literally not allowed to plead his innocence to the jury. De
       | facto ruling based on accusation of not turning over all the
       | evidence.
       | 
       | Biased judges like this, love circular reasoning, to find
       | justifications. Hence why Wikipedia is useful. Keep in mind
       | wikipedia change the definition of a recession recently, than
       | when challanged changed the definition of definition. Just last
       | week.
        
       | jbirer wrote:
       | After watching a female judge sentence a child with autism for
       | killing his rapist and childhood abuser, after he was acquited by
       | a male judge years before, I kind of lost faith in all types of
       | judicial process. AI needs to take over for such things.
        
         | jagged-chisel wrote:
         | This goes against double jeopardy. Do you have a reference?
        
           | morelisp wrote:
           | I believe "he was acquitted" refers to the abuser, not the
           | killer.
        
             | jagged-chisel wrote:
             | This makes more sense than my reading.
        
           | jbirer wrote:
           | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2NZtcfqjDs
           | 
           | Warning: it's very emotional
        
           | throwawy69690 wrote:
        
         | aqme28 wrote:
         | An AI would be trained on human decisions, and unless we're
         | careful it can easily have the same biases as human decision
         | making.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | istinetz wrote:
           | at least some biases we can avoid. We can scrub the training
           | data from mentioning gender or race. We can not include
           | photos of people, to avoid the attractiveness halo effect.
        
         | Taywee wrote:
         | You mean when she sentenced a 25 year old with autism of
         | stabbing a bedridden post-stroke 74 year old to death?
         | https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-62332824
         | 
         | You're really misrepresenting the case, and I doubt a good AI
         | would rule favorably on those circumstances. The judicial
         | system doesn't tend to go easy on stabbing defenseless people
         | to death, even if you can argue that they were bad people or
         | otherwise deserved it.
        
           | sgjohnson wrote:
           | If I was bedridden for probably the rest of my life, I'd
           | really appreciate if someone stabbed me to death.
        
       | tediousdemise wrote:
       | Knowledge influences behavior? No way, I don't believe it.
       | 
       | Say I want to learn how to do a backflip. I do a quick search,
       | find an instructional video, and nope the fuck out because of how
       | dangerous and difficult it seems to perform. A prime example of
       | knowledge that influenced my behavior.
       | 
       | Pointless study since this is just common sense. So much time and
       | money is wasted in science just so that people can make a name
       | for themselves or get a promotion.
        
         | stevage wrote:
         | To me, the fact that Wikipedia influences law is surprising. I
         | would not have expected judges or their clerks to rely on
         | Wikipedia or a resource.
        
       | t_mann wrote:
       | Previous discussion on HN:
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32253053
        
       | amriksohata wrote:
       | This is why in itself Wikipedia cannot be a trusted source but
       | should be treated as purely, an extension of the media. They
       | choose who they can cite and who they cannot.
        
         | wongarsu wrote:
         | Wikipedia certainly isn't infallible, and on some topics
         | reading the talk page or comparing how the article reads in
         | other languages can broaden your understanding or completely
         | change it.
         | 
         | But if that disqualifies Wikipedia as a "trusted source", which
         | sources deserve that distinction?
        
         | nehalem wrote:
         | Could you elaborate? I do see the issue about reliability, but
         | I don't see how this study is related? They added a random
         | selection of cases and provided summaries without intentional
         | bias. Except for a complete set, this is always the case for
         | every database of cases.
        
         | exadrid wrote:
         | Wikipedia has a very clear pro-science and pro-reality bias,
         | and that's a good thing. You would not want news like OAN to be
         | cited on their.
        
           | ars wrote:
           | You clearly don't edit much of Wikipedia if you think that.
           | Their bias actually toward things that are in the news.
           | 
           | And since the news of today is only interested in the most
           | extreme, that's the facts you'll find on Wikipedia.
           | 
           | Truthfully a much worse problem is that an average user
           | cannot edit on Wikipedia. To edit on Wikipedia you need to
           | have an obsessive personality, to constantly guard your edits
           | and keep other editors from removing them.
           | 
           | And that bias is much worse than any other, you'll find a ton
           | of information on matters that attract obsessive
           | personalities, and much less on more normal subjects.
        
             | manuelabeledo wrote:
             | > Truthfully a much worse problem is that an average user
             | cannot edit on Wikipedia. To edit on Wikipedia you need to
             | have an obsessive personality, to constantly guard your
             | edits and keep other editors from removing them.
             | 
             | This reads like something coming from the _obsessive_ side.
        
               | ars wrote:
               | I don't have patience to do any of that, and I'm mostly
               | just gave up on editing Wikipedia.
               | 
               | Every once in awhile I go to try to edit something and
               | I'm reminded again how time-consuming it is.
        
           | coffeeblack wrote:
           | The problem is that the news sources that Wp trusts have gone
           | completely bananas over the past decade.
        
             | tomrod wrote:
             | Citation, please.
        
               | specialist wrote:
               | IIRC, as an example, Newsweek lost its trusted status as
               | it adopted a news tabloid format. Further, they no longer
               | have fact checkers and do not print corrections. Surely
               | that's a disqualification right there.
               | 
               | Though I don't see that specific criteria listed:
               | 
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_guideline
               | s
               | 
               | FWIW, here's Wikipedia's roundup of sources:
               | 
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/
               | Per...
        
               | tomrod wrote:
               | If a news source loses reliability and wiki no longer
               | uses it, how does that support the claim that wiki
               | sources are bad?
        
               | vanattab wrote:
               | Just ask anyone over 40...
        
               | phdelightful wrote:
               | I wish those people over 40 hadn't put a US government in
               | place that abolished the fairness doctrine. Then our news
               | sources would probably not be so bananas.
        
               | andsoitis wrote:
               | > IRC, as an example, Newsweek lost its trusted status
               | 
               | Precisely, it _lost_ its trusted status, but the GP posts
               | that WP _trusts_ publications that have gone bananas. So
               | your example speaks _in favor_ of Wikipedia 's
               | reliability.
        
               | tomrod wrote:
               | That is not a citation. It's an appeal to generational
               | bias, and fails miserably.
               | 
               | Please provide an appropriate citation.
        
           | headsoup wrote:
           | Depends if it's true though, right? Let's not dismiss
           | everything because culture wars.
        
             | squeaky-clean wrote:
             | If it's true there's probably a less controversial source
             | that reported on it. If a controversial source is the only
             | place to report on something, it's probably not true.
        
               | headsoup wrote:
               | And the 'non-controversial' sources post only truth then?
               | 
               | This is really un-critical logic being applied to news
               | consumption.
        
       | photochemsyn wrote:
       | This study should have been controlled by asking whether courts
       | had access to the curated legal databases (primarily LexisNexis,
       | I imagine):
       | 
       | > "...the increase was bigger for citations by lower courts --
       | the High Court -- and mostly absent for citations by appellate
       | courts -- the Supreme Court and Court of Appeal."
       | 
       | Secondly, is it possible that the study designers themselves used
       | LexisNexis to research their Wikipedia articles? The study design
       | was based on:
       | 
       | > "...creating new legal Wikipedia articles to examine how they
       | affect the legal decisions of judges. They set off by developing
       | over 150 new Wikipedia articles on Irish Supreme Court decisions,
       | written by law students. Half of these were randomly chosen to be
       | uploaded online, where they could be used by judges, clerks,
       | lawyers, and so on -- the "treatment" group."
       | 
       | If these Wikipedia articles were based on LexisNexis research,
       | and that same LexisNexis database was being used by judges and
       | clerks, this would seem to introduce some major biases (making
       | the study rather worthless in terms of measuring Wikipedia
       | influence).
        
         | pushedx wrote:
         | The 77 cases that were given a Wikipedia article saw a 17%
         | increase in citations after publication.
         | 
         | One significant outcome of giving a case a Wikipedia article
         | described in the paper but not in the article is that the case
         | receives an infobox visible at the top of search results for
         | most search engines.
        
           | whatshisface wrote:
           | Maybe there's a rising tide of interest in certain cases that
           | lifts both Wikipedians and jurists.
        
             | CrazyStat wrote:
             | Cases were randomly selected to have Wikipedia write-ups
             | posted about them or not.
             | 
             | This is all in the article.
        
       | TechBro8615 wrote:
       | It doesn't seem unreasonable to extrapolate this finding to other
       | areas of society where a small percentage of people write their
       | opinions and then a much larger percent of people read them,
       | eventually shaping aggregate opinion independently of any opinion
       | held predominantly by "lurkers."
       | 
       | How many elections have been shaped by 4chan, Reddit, and
       | Facebook comments? There have been a few studies on this, eg in
       | 2016 [0] and 2018 [1] which found results that probably will not
       | shock you.
       | 
       | Personally, this might be confirmation/proximity bias, but I
       | believe the effect of small internet communities is severely
       | underestimated by the public and political consultants. This is
       | an area that needs a lot more study, not so that we can stop it,
       | but so we can raise public awareness of how memes spread and give
       | people the tools to think critically without falling into the
       | self-reinforcing cognitive traps that arise from filtering
       | information with poor heuristics.
       | 
       | [0] https://arxiv.org/abs/1610.03452
       | 
       | [1] https://arxiv.org/abs/1805.12512v1
        
         | tediousdemise wrote:
         | > a small percentage of people write their opinions and then a
         | much larger percent of people read them, eventually shaping
         | aggregate opinion independently of any opinion held
         | predominantly by "lurkers."
         | 
         | ELI5 brainwashing
        
       | jorgesborges wrote:
       | >Unsurprisingly, the increase was bigger for citations by lower
       | courts... The researchers suspect this is showing that Wikipedia
       | is used more by judges or clerks who have a heavier workload, for
       | whom the convenience of Wikipedia offers a greater attraction.
       | 
       | This makes sense. I don't know anything about the legal
       | profession but they must have their own search tools and
       | databases? Is it not easily accessible or digitized for all
       | levels? I don't get why it would be easier in the first place to
       | search Google or Wikipedia.
        
         | gergov wrote:
         | you would be surprised how the world operates outside of tech
         | 
         | it's scary excel sheets and a lot of ducttape
         | 
         | hell I wouldn't be surprised if the next round of innovation
         | will be born out of tech people going into gov and realizing
         | how much man hours there are to automate
        
           | stevage wrote:
           | That movement has been around a long time - see Code for
           | America and its offshoots for example. It sometimes works,
           | sometimes doesn't. It's easy to think that new tech will fix
           | everything but you need to understand the bureaucracy the
           | tech resides within.
        
         | _fat_santa wrote:
         | If I had to bet, they have those systems but they are a pain to
         | use. If I had to speculate, it would be a lot like those
         | citation search sites you used in College, they simply didn't
         | have the usability of Google. You had to enter search terms
         | very specifically, whereas with Google you just search for what
         | you want and Google figures out how to structure the query best
         | to give you the results you want.
         | 
         | I can totally see a scenario where a clerk needs to look
         | something up on a Friday afternoon, the though of pulling up
         | the proper search catalog pains them so they shortcut, googling
         | the thing they are looking for a reading the citations on
         | Wikipedia. If I was a law clerk I would 100% do this.
        
           | vharuck wrote:
           | Not to mention that Wikipedia also acts as a filter for
           | importance. Important cases are more likely to have articles.
           | This is bad for exhaustive research, but great for "I need to
           | write a summary by tomorrow."
        
           | RaCaS123 wrote:
           | Speaking from experience, you're right given its convenience.
           | Though, I (and any responsible lawyer for that matter) will
           | then also look up the case on WestLaw/Lexis given Wikipedia
           | is very much an imperfect source.
        
       | wellbehaved wrote:
       | Everything is politicized and weaponized.
        
       | mikotodomo wrote:
       | Wikipedia is an amazing wonder of the internet. I could spend ten
       | hours a day reading deep into topics and related topics I only
       | learned because of the initial curiosity I had. But that's beside
       | the point. There is such thorough coverage of all topics of every
       | field so I would indeed expect that judges are using it to look
       | things up because of how convenient it is.
        
         | mellosouls wrote:
         | The problem is that in certain subjects (especially those with
         | a potential ethical dimension like social and cultural pages)
         | there is significant bias towards the left (I say that as a
         | left-leaning person).
         | 
         | That's not healthy at all when being used as a resource without
         | awareness and significant caution.
        
       | martin_drapeau wrote:
       | How did clerks/lawyers find those articles on Wikipedia? Through
       | Google I reckon. I wonder how bad/good the search is for court
       | judgements of their existing system.
       | 
       | Sounds like they need to put those court judgements online, or if
       | they already are, do some SEO work so they rank. Wikipedia was a
       | great way to do that.
        
         | delecti wrote:
         | There are legal search engines which just about every lawyer
         | should have access to. Resorting to google or wikipedia seems
         | like a weird intersection of being comfortable with technology
         | but unaware of any of the standard options.
        
         | laGrenouille wrote:
         | LexisNexis, which does other things now but started in the
         | legal space, offers a huge collection of legal opinions with a
         | fairly good search and linking capabilities. Most clerks and
         | law professionals would have access to it.
         | 
         | I think the benefit of Wikipedia is not access to materials so
         | much as it is the succinct summarization of the legal opinions.
         | Perhaps now NLP could help with this, but it's a very
         | complicated problem to provide a summary of the important bits
         | from a 100+ page legal document.
        
           | bdowling wrote:
           | > ... the succinct summarization of the legal opinions.
           | 
           | LexisNexis and Westlaw produce succinct summaries of legal
           | opinions. That's the basis of their value, because the legal
           | opinions themselves are not copyrighted. They also categorize
           | everything about an opinion so that their database is
           | searchable by area of law, etc.
        
       | pojzon wrote:
       | Lets check how google search results influence judicial
       | behaviour. Ups we already know google creates echo chambers.
        
       | DontchaKnowit wrote:
       | Can we stop calling stuff like this a "study"? This is not
       | science, this is essentially journalism.
       | 
       | I mean technically yes they are "studying" a subject but this is
       | not a scientific experiment, but it will almost certainly be
       | cited as such just because it's called a study.
        
         | edgyquant wrote:
         | This is a statistical study, what are you talking about?
        
         | gwern wrote:
         | This is definitely a study and science. It's actually a rather
         | high quality experiment too, I was in awe of the way they
         | carefully constructed the pairs of decisions to make them as
         | identical as possible, and then got the _same_ law student to
         | write an article for each member of a pair _before_ randomizing
         | to ensure they were written as similarly as possible. Everyone
         | knows that you should be blocking to maximize statistical
         | power, but very few people ever go that far. (And that 's
         | probably a good part of why despite the relatively small _n_,
         | they still get very clear causal effects.)
        
           | stevage wrote:
           | I still don't understand why they bothered writing the
           | articles for the ones that weren't being uploaded. I'm sure
           | there's a reason, it just wasn't obvious to me.
        
         | 6177c40f wrote:
         | What about it makes it not science?
        
           | tediousdemise wrote:
           | Concluding that knowledge influences behavior isn't science.
           | It's common sense.
        
             | bdowling wrote:
             | A conclusion supported by carefully collected data is
             | science. A conclusion based on common sense is not.
        
             | stevage wrote:
             | They quantified that though.
        
             | edgyquant wrote:
             | You have no idea what science is dude. Suggesting a
             | hypothesis and then proving it via rigorous testing is what
             | science means. It isn't whatever the hell you want it to be
             | nor is "science" anything but a method.
        
       | jrochkind1 wrote:
       | On HN front page 4 days ago, with 190 comments:
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32253053
        
       | option wrote:
       | in other news, reading books and attending judicial classes and
       | conferences influences judicial behavior
        
       | helsinkiandrew wrote:
       | This is alarming but I'm not sure the study actually finds that
       | "Wikipedia influences judicial behavior" in the way most readers
       | would understand that term - influencing decisions and sentence.
       | 
       | It finds that "Getting a public Wikipedia article increased a
       | case's citations by more than 20 percent." That could mean judges
       | are citing cases with wikipedia entries rather than similar cases
       | without and their judicial behaviour remains the same.
        
         | feet wrote:
         | My guess is that law clerks are using wikipedia as an easy way
         | to find info on cases, which isn't entirely surprising to me
        
           | photochemsyn wrote:
           | I think law clerks and other legal professionals would be
           | using a curated service (most likely LexisNexis) as their
           | primary information source, not Wikipedia.
           | 
           | Wikipedia is quite unreliable on any major legal case,
           | controversial issue, political personality, corporate entity
           | etc., as the relevant wikipedia pages end up being heavily
           | manipulated by agenda-driven editors who often erase or alter
           | the most important information.
        
             | grumple wrote:
             | I would guess that google and other search engines have
             | much better search functionality than curated services.
             | You'd find a case via google, then review the details on a
             | curated service.
        
           | ajross wrote:
           | Exactly, Wikipedia is the first step for almost every expert
           | professional in every profession. We all do it, and the world
           | is better for it.
           | 
           | Also the causality of the argument in the linked article
           | seems clearly backwards anyway: it's not that "Getting a
           | wikipedia page for your case makes it more likely to be
           | cited", it's "More important/citable cases are more likely to
           | have a wikipedia page". Which is sort of an obvious point.
        
             | stevage wrote:
             | Your second comment is incorrect.
        
             | mjw1007 wrote:
             | The linked article is describing a randomised trial, which
             | looks like it was set up in a way that's good enough to be
             | sure the causality goes in the former direction.
        
         | roenxi wrote:
         | It isn't that obvious that this is alarming. What are we
         | alarmed about?
         | 
         | The point of judges is that they make judgements. The citing of
         | other law is just to try and keep some consistency between the
         | judgements to make them predictable. In theory they could even
         | give out inconsistent judgements and that would also be
         | workable, it just happens that it usually means something bad
         | is happening because judges aren't naturally more pleasant
         | people than the horrible Mass of Humans that causes so much
         | grief. So we want judges to put in an effort at consistency and
         | if they are consistently using Wikipedia as a reference then it
         | is easier for the rest of us to guess what the system is about
         | to do.
         | 
         | It is easy to influence judicial opinion on a case. There are
         | even professionals hired to do it as a full time job! We call
         | them lawyers.
        
           | phpisthebest wrote:
           | >>What are we alarmed about?
           | 
           | While I think the study has some major deficiencies addressed
           | in other comments, if it was true, the alarm for me would be
           | that Wikipedia has clearly become politically partisan in
           | many area's and topics, including some that would intersect
           | the law
           | 
           | Wikipedia is hardly a "neutral" site of just facts
        
             | haswell wrote:
             | Do those have topics have anything to do with the class of
             | Wikipedia article mentioned in the study?
             | 
             | I'm not saying there isn't bias, but the existence of bias
             | in certain controversial subjects isn't necessarily
             | evidence that articles about cases are subject to the same
             | kinds of issues. I'm not saying they're immune either, but
             | it's not clear that the two are related.
        
           | MichaelCollins wrote:
           | The part that concerns ('alarm' implies surprise) me is the
           | confirmation that activist wikipedians have levers and knobs
           | to play with that impact court decisions.
           | 
           | And if Wikipedia does, you can bet Google does too.
        
         | wisnoskij wrote:
         | But that is what influencing is. By definition, these results
         | show that cases given Wikipedia articles exert an otherwise
         | unproportional influence on the legal landscape.
         | 
         | Not a particularly surprising result, but it shows how much of
         | an effect such a little thing can have, and how big of an
         | influence for example controlling what articles published vs
         | not published could have over time.
        
         | smrtinsert wrote:
         | Why would it be alarming. Wikipedia is a fine entry into any
         | topic. Seeing PragerU influencing the court would be alarming.
        
           | bacchusracine wrote:
           | Sir, I'm afraid your bias is showing...
        
             | Tostino wrote:
             | Pretending PreagerU is anything but blatant propaganda is
             | silly.
        
               | Mountain_Skies wrote:
               | Pretending Wikipedia isn't also, is silly. This week's
               | nonsense with the definition of 'recession' is proof
               | enough of that. If you want to argue magnitude, you've
               | already conceded what Wikipedia is (and I don't deny
               | PragerU is what you claim it is).
        
               | cmeacham98 wrote:
               | Wikipedia is not perfectly unbiased, but if you honestly
               | believe it is even comparable to PragerU you should
               | seriously talk to someone about your biases and
               | perception of the world.
               | 
               | There are left-wing equivalents of PragerU (ex: the
               | Gravel Institute) that are just as far away from
               | Wikipedia as PragerU is.
        
               | phpisthebest wrote:
               | I think it depends on the topic and section of wikipedia.
               | 
               | If you get into the political area's of wikipeda, I think
               | the bias of Wikipedia is pretty clear polar to that of
               | PragerU.
               | 
               | If you stick to the pure hard sciences (physics as an
               | example) and non-controversial events (like an
               | earthquake) then sure they are unbiased
        
               | kitschyred wrote:
               | > I think the bias of Wikipedia is pretty clear polar to
               | that of PragerU
               | 
               | As if. This article:
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor_genocide_question
               | is still up despite having almost zero pertinent
               | sources.[1] Calling that "polar" is nothing short of a
               | stretch.
               | 
               |  _At most_ , Wikipedia could be said to have a _neo-
               | liberal_ bias, an ideology upheld by both of the US '
               | political parties, based on policies alone and not on
               | each individual voter's personal and nuanced adherence.
               | The parties are wrongly assumed to be polar opposites on
               | the political spectrum by most US citizens, but they're
               | not.
               | 
               | [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kaaYvauNho
        
               | edgyquant wrote:
               | That holodomor example isn't a good one. That article is
               | up for, and mostly pertains to, the debate surrounding
               | whether or not it was technically a genocide.
        
               | cmeacham98 wrote:
               | Can you give an example of a wikipedia page that you
               | think shows bias on the same level as PragerU?
        
               | chjj wrote:
               | This is one of the most clear examples of bias in favor
               | of leftism that I've seen on wikipedia:
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_marxism
               | 
               | > The term "Cultural Marxism" refers to a far-right
               | antisemitic conspiracy theory which claims that Western
               | Marxism is the basis of continuing academic and
               | intellectual efforts to subvert Western culture.
               | 
               | I feel like a lot of actual marxists would disagree with
               | this statement. People like Antonio Gramsci, who
               | basically laid the foundations for cultural marxism in
               | the early 20th century.
               | 
               | Oddly, if you read about Antonio Gramsci on wikipedia,
               | they all but call him a cultural marxist:
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Gramsci
               | 
               | > Gramsci is best known for his theory of cultural
               | hegemony, which describes how the state and ruling
               | capitalist class - the bourgeoisie - use cultural
               | institutions to maintain power in capitalist societies.
               | 
               | Also, the last time I looked at the cultural marxism
               | article, it simply said a "far-right conspiracy theory".
               | Now they've somehow managed to roll up antisemitism in
               | there too. Apparently it became antisemitic in just the
               | past year or two!
        
               | cmeacham98 wrote:
               | Just because they use the term "cultural" on Anotonio
               | Gramsci's page doesn't make him part of "continuing
               | academic and intellectual efforts to subvert Western
               | culture". Can you substantiate that claim, or is that
               | just made up?
               | 
               | > Also, the last time I looked at the cultural marxism
               | article, it simply said a "far-right conspiracy theory".
               | Now they've somehow managed to roll up antisemitism in
               | there too. Apparently it became antisemitic in just the
               | past year or two!
               | 
               | This is the first ever revision of the article that isn't
               | simply a redirect, and it contains the term: https://en.w
               | ikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cultural_Marxism_...
        
               | chjj wrote:
               | Antonio Gramsci asserted that the reason Marx's
               | predictions of late-stage capitalism never came to
               | fruition was due to cultural institutions propping up
               | capitalism. He states very clearly that the (new)
               | objective of marxism should be to establish a counter-
               | hegemony within the existing cultural hegemony, thereby
               | subverting it.
               | 
               | This is all present in Gramsci's prison notebooks[1] and
               | is common knowledge to anyone who has ever studied
               | marxist intellectual literature at any length. I find it
               | ridiculous that wikipedia would claim this is a
               | "conspiracy theory". Marxists speak about this _very_
               | candidly in their writings.
               | 
               | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_Notebooks
        
               | cmeacham98 wrote:
               | This still does not provide any proof for the claim. Of
               | course Marxists want to promote their ideology, even
               | culturally. Nobody denies this. The claim made by people
               | using the term "Cultural Marxism", and the reason it is a
               | conspiracy theory, is that said Marxists do so for the
               | purpose of destroying Western culture.
               | 
               | Again, to be clear: I am not asking for proof that
               | Marxists promoted Marxism (obviously they did), but that
               | they did so "to subvert Western culture".
        
               | chjj wrote:
               | Again, Gramsci and later followers of Gramsci advocated
               | infiltrating cultural institutions and establishing a
               | counter-hegemony to subvert the existing cultural
               | hegemony. That should be enough to satisfy anyone's
               | definition of cultural marxism. Read Gramsci or any other
               | cultural marxist if you want proof.
               | 
               | edit: I'll also point out that Mao's cultural revolution
               | in China was the first implementation of Gramsci's vision
               | of cultural marxism. There's no way to know whether Mao
               | had ever read Gramsci, but it's not out of the realm of
               | possibility.
        
               | hither_shores wrote:
               | Browse through https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wik
               | ipedia_neutral_poi... and you'll find plenty.
               | 
               | For example:
               | 
               | > Mohammed Zakir (also known as Meyra) was an Ethiopian
               | Oromo nationalist. Regarded as "legendary Oromo hero", he
               | is noted for his high contribution to keep the lights of
               | Oromo nationalism shining after the martyrdom of his two
               | hero colleagues called Elemo Qiltu and Ahmad Taqi ... the
               | Oromos would never forget this early exemplary hero. And
               | above all, history will always remember Meyra and his
               | heroism.
        
               | cmeacham98 wrote:
               | If you go to the page in question (available here:
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Zakir_Meyra) it
               | has not one but two warnings at the top of the page about
               | the content within. Is this not an example of Wikipedia's
               | process working as intended?
        
               | hither_shores wrote:
               | There's been an NPOV warning on that page since 2011, and
               | the content has remained substantially the same since
               | 2010. So no, I don't think it is.
        
               | cmeacham98 wrote:
               | Wikipedia runs off of community contributions. This
               | person seems to be extremely obscure, as searching the
               | full name 'Mohammed Zakir Meyra' I found this Wikipedia
               | article, websites that scrape Wikipedia and post its
               | contents, and garbage SEO-optimized websites that had
               | nothing to do with the person. I gave up trying to find
               | anything that wasn't SEO garbage or a Wikipedia scrape on
               | page 5 of the search results.
               | 
               | At least in the English speaking world, this person seems
               | to be a nobody and nobody seems to care enough to fix
               | this article. Honestly, someone that knows how the
               | process works on Wikipedia more than me should probably
               | submit it for deletion, as this (at least in my opinion)
               | shouldn't even meet Wikipedia's notability standards.
        
               | 8note wrote:
               | Here's a fun hour and a half analysis on a page related
               | to Ukraine: https://youtu.be/3kaaYvauNho
        
               | MichaelCollins wrote:
               | The method of this study was to deliberately construct a
               | bias on wikipedia, which the researchers were able to
               | successfully pull off with measurable effect.
        
               | theduder99 wrote:
        
               | bacchusracine wrote:
               | As the other poster pointed out, it's the pretense that
               | Wikipedia is in any way shape or form neutral that shows
               | the bias.
        
           | helsinkiandrew wrote:
           | > Wikipedia is a fine entry into any topic
           | 
           | It isn't, that's the point of the study - not all court
           | decisions are on wikipedia and those that are, are getting
           | cited more. Judges, Lawyers, Clerks have access to the
           | original decisions and court transcripts in electronic form
           | going back decades and longer. If they're relying on whats on
           | wikipedia - they're either doing poor research or are too
           | lazy to write their own summations.
        
             | zinekeller wrote:
             | ... and then rely on LexisNexis et al.? Unfortunately it
             | seems that (US) courts don't really have a good collation
             | of cases (as opposed to collated laws which exists as the
             | US Code).
        
           | [deleted]
        
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