[HN Gopher] Recommended settings for Wi-Fi routers and access po...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Recommended settings for Wi-Fi routers and access points
        
       Author : butz
       Score  : 243 points
       Date   : 2022-07-30 10:25 UTC (12 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (support.apple.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (support.apple.com)
        
       | prophesi wrote:
       | Another recommendation I'd add is appending "_optout_nomap" to
       | your SSID name. That will let you opt out of both Microsoft and
       | Google's access point data collection.
        
         | kartugestu wrote:
         | is the "_optout" part of "_optout_nomap" required? i thought
         | "_nomap" is sufficient.
         | https://support.google.com/maps/answer/1725632?hl=en#zippy=%...
        
           | kartugestu wrote:
           | ah _optout is microsoft i did not know that.
        
             | prophesi wrote:
             | Yeah I only learned about it recently. And apparently
             | "_nomap" _has_ to be at the end of the SSID. A weird system
             | for something that should be opt-in anyways.
        
       | sinuhe69 wrote:
       | One negative side-effect of the same SSID policy is you might not
       | be able to share your WiFi password by simply putting your
       | devices close to each other. Ordinarily, Apple devices can share
       | WiFi password easily by putting an already set up device close to
       | a new one. But if they are momentarily connected to different
       | networks (frequencies), even though they have the same SSID and
       | same password, Apple software will see them (correctly) as on two
       | different networks so the password will not be shared even when
       | the password is the same on both networks. I don't know if the
       | automatic band switching is any better than the manual one but I
       | find this issue is quite a hassle.
        
         | exikyut wrote:
         | This might actually be completely fixable by borrowing the
         | trick Bluetooth-less Wi-Fi lightbulbs use for pairing.
         | 
         | To pair, the lightbulb's ESP8266 (or cheaper equivalent) sits
         | with its Wi-Fi radio in monitor mode - not authenticated to
         | anything, just watching All The Packets flying back and forth -
         | and the smartphone sprays crafted packets to 255.255.255.255
         | with specific lengths (Wi-Fi encryption does not alter packet
         | length), where the length of each packet taken in sequence then
         | interpreted as ASCII represents the encoded setup packet
         | containing the target SSID and password. (Of course that setup
         | packet is plaintext and I was able to vacuum up your password *
         | _sad exploding brain_ * D:)
         | 
         | Apple could do the same basic idea here: have the connected
         | iPhone spray a magic packet sequence to 255.255.255.255,
         | representing say an OTP-esque nonce or similar sort of thing
         | that is communicated to the non-connected iPhone OOB (eg
         | Bluetooth or cellular). If the non-connected iPhone can see
         | this sequence fly past in monitor mode, then ultimately it's on
         | the same network even if the SSID is different.
         | 
         | ...Or at least this all works if you can associate packet X,
         | with length Y, *with SSID Z*. If you can't localize the
         | sequence to an SSID without being authenticated this doesn't
         | work.
        
           | VogonPoetry wrote:
           | I believe that Apple uses something similar to their
           | "Handoff" mechanism, described in the "Apple Platform
           | Security Guide" [1]. This uses Bluetooth Low Energy out of
           | band paring to establish a shared key. I believe it uses the
           | same identity keys as iMessage to establish the shared key -
           | so you can only offer to share the WiFi password with someone
           | you've been talking to over iMessage and you will see the
           | name of the person you are going to share it with. Sharing
           | the WiFi password is secure from eavesdroppers.
           | 
           | The Bluetooth-less mechanism for WiFi only is an absolutely
           | terrible idea and implementation. It actively leaks the
           | network password to anyone listening. I refuse (and return)
           | any device that requires me to connect it to my IOT network
           | in this way. One can usually detect if this is the setup
           | mechanism by looking at the instructions: (1) Download an
           | App, (2) do something to the bulb (power cycles usually) (3)
           | Setup happens automatically! I think some network stacks
           | don't let non-privileged apps send broadcast addresses, so
           | perhaps the scope of this damaged mechanism is limited.
           | 
           | It is better if the ESP8266 is put into a low power Access
           | Point (AP) mode and configure that way - but due to this
           | (usually) not being an encrypted WiFi session, there is also
           | a risk of leaking the network secret unless a way to do a
           | secure key exchange is bootstrapped in the html form or API.
           | Both of these are possible if Javascript is enabled or via an
           | App API. The instructions for doing this might also include
           | downloading an App, but it also ought to require finding and
           | connecting to a setup AP first.
           | 
           | I guess the best way to kill the "leak the password"
           | mechanism is for a better mechanism to be created and
           | incorporated into something like Tasmota or other public IOT
           | ESP8266 codebase so it can be copied.
           | 
           | [1] https://help.apple.com/pdf/security/en_US/apple-platform-
           | sec...
        
         | gruez wrote:
         | >But if they are momentarily connected to different networks
         | (frequencies), even though they have the same SSID and same
         | password, Apple software will see them (correctly) as on two
         | different networks so the password will not be shared even when
         | the password is the same on both networks.
         | 
         | I don't get it, how is this an issue? If both devices are
         | already connected to the same SSID, then both devices already
         | have the password. Why would you need to share passwords?
        
           | jzwinck wrote:
           | One is connected and logged on. The other sees the same-named
           | network and is not logged on yet because it doesn't know the
           | password. Two different senses of "connected."
        
           | woqe wrote:
           | Multiple non-unique SSIDs (name) can exist within a single
           | router. More extremely, you and your neighbor can have the
           | same SSID on two different routers.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | jimmaswell wrote:
       | Does this mean Apple devices whine at you for joining open
       | networks at grocery stores etc?
        
         | JoBrad wrote:
         | There's a notice saying it's unprotected.
        
       | justusthane wrote:
       | Unfortunately the only way I've been able to get my HomePod Minis
       | to work reliably is to disable the 5Ghz band completely and only
       | have 2.4 -- even when they're in the same room as the AP!
       | 
       | Having two separate SSIDs and joining them to the 2.4GHz SSID
       | also works, but it's kind of a pain and you lose certain
       | functionality if they aren't on the same SSID as your iPhone.
        
         | psydvl wrote:
         | I have in my router options possibility to choose what Gz
         | should device connect to: for example, old notebook I connect
         | to 2.4 only. Maybe you should enable same for homepod?
        
         | rcarmo wrote:
         | The SSID should't matter if they are on the same IP address
         | space. Make sure your router isn't handing out different DHCP
         | ranges for each SSID or frequency range.
        
         | incogitomode wrote:
         | Interesting to read you have issues with your HomePod Mini.
         | Mine has been stable, however all my (7) original HomePods had
         | constant issues connecting starting around OS 14.5 / 15. I have
         | to imagine it's related to AirPlay 2.
         | 
         | I went through two different WiFi-6 networks, in every possible
         | configuration, with no luck. Cumulatively I must have spent
         | 20-30 hours debugging the networks, and finally happened upon
         | something that works, albeit with caveats. I got two Eero Pro 6
         | access points, and disabled band steering -- it was an
         | experimental setting at the time -- and everything worked! I've
         | since re-enabled the setting and immediately have issues so I
         | feel confident saying band steering is the issue.
         | 
         | Since then Eero has updated the setting to include AP switching
         | and it's called "client steering". So, unfortunately, to have
         | my HomePods connect I sacrifice AP handoff and have to toggle
         | wifi if I move my laptop to the other end of the apartment.
         | 
         | There are quite a few folks who have brought this up in an
         | Apple issue, and I have a friend in Tucson -- where radio
         | interference isn't an issue -- with the same problem.
        
       | chevman wrote:
       | Funny timing. Was helping my father in law troubleshoot his WiFi
       | this weekend and came across this article.
       | 
       | All his wireless printers and his really old iPad (I think gen 1
       | or 2) refused to connect suddenly a couple weeks ago. No apparent
       | changes or new devices on his network.
       | 
       | Turned out Comcast pushed an update to his wireless gateway that
       | enabled 'managed security functionality'. Part of this included
       | forcing WPA3 security on all devices.
       | 
       | Once I figured out how to set it back to WPA2 for the 2.4 ghz
       | network, all the old devices reconnected.
       | 
       | Good times :)
        
         | jms703 wrote:
         | I don't think WPA3 is totally ready for widespread use (yet)
         | due to older IoT devices. I'm not even totally sure what
         | problem it solves, so I should probably read up on it.
        
         | cronix wrote:
         | This is one of the main reasons I bought my own docsis 3 router
         | for about $100 6 years ago. Comcast doesn't have access to it.
         | The other bonus is you save a lot of money over the years by
         | not having to rent it from Comcast, every month for the
         | lifetime of your service. It pays for itself the first year.
         | You give up pay per view/on-demand which never affected me, but
         | something to consider if he uses that. I think you can still
         | get ppv but have to call in or something and can't just order
         | it using the remote, but my memory on that is foggy since I
         | never use ppv. They make good Christmas presents and saving the
         | FIL money always builds up the brownie bank :)
        
           | sveiss wrote:
           | If you're with Comcast, then it's very likely they do have
           | access to the modem, even if you own it.
           | 
           | A cable modem is somewhat "trusted" from the perspective of
           | the network: cable is physically a shared medium, and a
           | malfunctioning or malicious devices can disrupt service for
           | everyone on the same physical cable segment. There's no way
           | for an ISP to remotely cut off a bad device.
           | 
           | This means cable ISPs demand tight control of the equipment
           | connected to their network, including remote configuration
           | and firmware updates. Comcast enforce this by limiting
           | activation to a list of approved devices, and there's a
           | certificate-based scheme to try and prevent spoofing an
           | approved device.
           | 
           | Historically, the cable modem also enforced download and
           | upload speed limits as well, giving ISPs another reason to
           | keep modems under tight control, but I don't know if that's
           | still the case.
           | 
           | If you distrust Comcast, then you should treat your DOCSIS
           | device as hostile even if you own it, and put it behind a
           | router you do control instead of using a combined
           | modem/router.
        
             | max51 wrote:
             | if he only paid 100$ for a modem and it was brand new, it
             | likely wasn't an all-in-one station like what large ISPs
             | are trying to push. Cheaper/dumber modems severely limit
             | the amount of control Comcast have and how much they can
             | fuck up your network with a bad update. They can't mess up
             | your wifi settings if the box they control doesn't even
             | have a wireless radio on it.
             | 
             | "dumb" modems are a lot more reliable simply because there
             | is nothing for them to patch inside. It doesn't have a
             | complex OS running a wide range of services that need
             | regular updates (managing a TV, wifi, file sharing, etc.).
        
               | matthew-wegner wrote:
               | _simply because there is nothing for them to patch
               | inside_
               | 
               | Cable ISPs still regularly push firmware to compatible
               | modems on their network, standalone or combo
               | modem/router, rented or owned
               | 
               | If it runs on their network, they have the ability to
               | flash it (and they do)
               | 
               | It's a lot less control than your wifi/router settings,
               | obviously, but it's still a thing
        
               | sveiss wrote:
               | Yeah, if it's just a modem with a separate router that's
               | fine, but I think you can get an entry level all in one
               | for around $100 now?
               | 
               | I see at least one on Amazon, but it's hard to tell if
               | it's refurbished, which most at that price point are.
        
         | teaearlgraycold wrote:
         | You'd think they'd have some kind of migration system to detect
         | if there are devices on the network that are lost after the
         | switch over and revert if so.
        
           | daed wrote:
           | You are clearly not a Comcast customer.
        
             | teaearlgraycold wrote:
             | Sonic Fiber!
        
           | CharlesW wrote:
           | This is a brilliant idea. It makes me wonder if there are any
           | user-friendly network scanners that do snapshot diffs.
        
         | kzrdude wrote:
         | This is the first time I ever heard of WPA3 existing. Does it
         | exist under any other name?
        
       | matsemann wrote:
       | Have Apple devices become better "citizens" lately? Remember at
       | Uni they for some time banned Apple devices, as they would mess
       | up DHCP by reusing stale IP assignments to make it seem quicker
       | to connect or so.
       | 
       | Edit: found a discussion from the time
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2755461
        
         | neilalexander wrote:
         | This isn't unique to Apple, I believe Windows also does this
         | and there is even an RFC explaining the concept.
         | 
         | Also it's not so much that it deliberately "messes up"
         | anything, it's more that a DHCP server shouldn't tell a client
         | device that it holds an address for a certain amount of time
         | and then either not honour it or forget that state. It's a
         | reasonable thing for a client to resume using an address if
         | there is time still left on the lease and wasn't told otherwise
         | and the ARP collision detection mechanism is supposed to detect
         | conflicts before it becomes an issue.
         | 
         | Unfortunately, DHCP implementations in the wild vary in quality
         | considerably and the people administering them don't
         | necessarily understand the inner workings of DHCP all that well
         | either, because as long as it hands out addresses, they
         | normally don't ever need to.
        
         | simondotau wrote:
         | Such a ridiculous complaint, after all, it's not like there's a
         | worldwide shortage of non-routable IPs. Just make your network
         | address space large enough that your DHCP server is rarely, if
         | ever, reassigning the same IP address more than once. I see so
         | many network operators desperate to "right size" their IP
         | ranges when they could just allocate a /18 or /16 or even
         | larger.
         | 
         | Microsoft and Apple might not be following the DHCP spec
         | correctly, but they're breaking it for the right reasons.
         | Offering very long lease times is one way to increase apparent
         | network responsiveness to your end users. Give devices an IP
         | address for weeks or even months if you can. Why not?
        
           | londons_explore wrote:
           | Lots of routers start choking when they have more than a few
           | thousand DHCP leases.
           | 
           | Often, they do compute hungry things periodically with every
           | entry in the DHCP lease table - like for example tracking
           | download and upload bandwidth and bytes transferred per
           | client every second using some low performance python script.
           | 
           | This has become especially bad since most devices started
           | using a new mac address for every connection. It means an
           | apple device going in and out of range of a wifi point all
           | night can easily create thousands of leases, all active for 7
           | days or whatever the default (and often unconfigurable) lease
           | time is.
           | 
           | You soon run out of IP's, and even if you don't, you run into
           | the aformentioned performance issues.
        
             | simondotau wrote:
             | > _Lots of routers start choking when they have more than a
             | few thousand DHCP leases._
             | 
             | If someone is running a network of that scale with a dinky
             | little router that chokes at the prospect of remembering a
             | few thousand leases, DHCP really is the least of their
             | problems.
             | 
             | > _an apple device going in and out of range of a wifi
             | point all night can easily create thousands of leases, all
             | active for 7 days or whatever the default (and often
             | unconfigurable) lease time is._
             | 
             | This doesn't happen. That's not how it works.
             | 
             | > _You soon run out of IP 's_
             | 
             | "Running out" of non-routable IPs isn't a risk, it's a
             | choice.
        
             | oarsinsync wrote:
             | > Lots of routers start choking when they have more than a
             | few thousand DHCP leases.
             | 
             | You don't need to run DHCP services on your router. If
             | you're running large infrastructure, arguably, you
             | shouldn't, and should instead run a DHCP server on a
             | server, and leave your router's resources for routing.
             | 
             | > This has become especially bad since most devices started
             | using a new mac address for every connection. It means an
             | apple device going in and out of range of a wifi point all
             | night can easily create thousands of leases
             | 
             | Apple MAC address privacy generates a random MAC per SSID.
             | It doesn't generate a new random MAC every time it
             | reconnects to the same SSID. This would be pretty terrible
             | as far as user experience goes too if they did.
        
               | londons_explore wrote:
               | > It doesn't generate a new random MAC every time it
               | reconnects to the same SSID.
               | 
               | By default, it does. That's to prevent people like
               | McDonald's tracking your device from restaurant to
               | restaurant as they all have the same SSID
        
               | neilalexander wrote:
               | Details on the Apple implementation:
               | https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT211949
               | 
               | In short, Wi-Fi scans use a randomised MAC, connections
               | to a known network can reuse the same private MAC for up
               | to 6 weeks, can fall back to the device MAC if all else
               | fails.
        
           | serf wrote:
           | >Why not?
           | 
           | parent said it caused network issues at their university.
           | 
           | pretty cut & dry 'why not?' included.
           | 
           | >Microsoft and Apple might not be following the DHCP spec
           | correctly, but they're breaking it for the right reasons.
           | 
           | these groups are both large enough to influence whatever
           | specs they need to without out-right breaking them, in many
           | ways they're the ones least responsible in doing so, as they
           | often times shape the specifications themselves. If they need
           | the spec to include arbitrarily long leases let's ask them to
           | propose that to the spec rather than being OK with certain
           | groups violating things.
           | 
           | Violated specs is exactly the kind of thing that that
           | trickles down to unintended and unexpected user experience.
        
             | simondotau wrote:
             | > _parent said it caused network issues at their
             | university._
             | 
             | No, the parent's university's apparent problem was that
             | their DHCP was reallocating IP addresses soon after expiry.
             | Dramatically increasing the pool size and the lease time
             | wasn't the problem, it's the solution.
        
               | freedomben wrote:
               | You're not wrong, but I'm saddened at this attitude. IMHO
               | the tech giants already have so much power/ability to
               | shape/force the standards to suit their own practices.
               | The attitude of "Apple should be able to violate the
               | standard all they want and it should be on network
               | operators to accommodate them" is wildly empowering to
               | the elephant over the ant.
        
       | encryptluks2 wrote:
       | I'm surprised hiding the SSID makes it less secure? Or they just
       | saying it isn't worth the inconvenience?
        
         | cesarb wrote:
         | If you hide the SSID, your phone or laptop has to ask for that
         | specific SSID in a probe request every time it scans for nearby
         | networks, even when it's nowhere near your router. If you don't
         | hide the SSID, your phone or laptop can just ask for the
         | wildcard SSID in the probe requests, or even passively listen
         | for the periodic beacons. That is: if you hide your SSID, not
         | only you're announcing to everyone around you all the time your
         | SSID, but also it doesn't hide it very well, since the SSID is
         | still sent in plaintext in the probe request every time your
         | devices attempt to connect to your router.
        
       | nullify88 wrote:
       | These days I just disable 2.4ghz completely since all our devices
       | support 5ghz and we have enough (2) access points around the
       | house to give a good signal anywhere.
        
         | julianlam wrote:
         | That's fortunate, what usable range do you see with your 5GHz
         | network? I find the range is pretty dismal even with a wood
         | frame and drywall house. My AP can be right below me and the
         | signal is only perhaps 50%
         | 
         | Wifi Analyzer will show the signal as coming from 30+ meters
         | away when it is only about 4m (with multiple walls and floors
         | in between)
        
           | nullify88 wrote:
           | WiFiMan reports -85db and 80m when 3 floors down on the
           | opposite side of the house from 1 Ubiquiti U6 Mesh. We have a
           | second U6 Mesh to cover this area and users roam between the
           | two when on the second floor where we are most of the time.
           | 
           | The house is detached, very open plan, and doesn't have many
           | solid walls. We also have traditional wall radiators, I
           | imagine the lack of underfloor heating and foil insulations
           | allows wifi to travel further between floors.
        
           | londons_explore wrote:
           | Insulated walls often have foil backed insulation which is
           | really good at blocking wifi. Even with devices the same side
           | of the wall, the foil makes nice constructive and destructive
           | interference patterns that mean a device that's working great
           | can lose all signal if you move it a few inches.
           | 
           | I really wish insulation makers would use a different backing
           | material - the supposed reflectivity of the foil doesn't
           | really add much to the insulation properties anyway.
        
             | gorpy7 wrote:
             | It's more common in roofs than walls. but is becoming more
             | common on both. As people continue to take house
             | performance more seriously, more aspects are being
             | addressed. unsurprisingly, foil reflects radiant heat gain
             | when you're trying to cool. maybe directly from the sun and
             | that emitted from hot siding.
        
             | elric wrote:
             | > the supposed reflectivity of the foil doesn't really add
             | much to the insulation properties anyway
             | 
             | Can you elaborate on that? Seems hard to believe. There are
             | many kinds of insulation without foil, and the foil backed
             | variants tend to be more expensive. It's hard to imagine
             | that we'd be making the stuff like that without a good
             | reason.
        
               | londons_explore wrote:
               | Foil backing is normally used on polyurethane foams, and
               | is necessary to give the panel sufficient structural
               | rigidity during manufacture.
               | 
               | One could use a plastic film instead though, or even
               | corrugated cardboard.
               | 
               | The effectiveness of the film for insulation depends on
               | many things.
               | 
               | Energy is lost through radiation, conduction and
               | convection. At every layer of a house wall, the
               | contribution of those effects varies widely.
               | 
               |  _Within_ the panel, radiation has near zero impact,
               | because the foam material is directly in contact with the
               | foil.
               | 
               |  _Outside_ the panel, the foil _might_ have a benefit.
               | The benefit would be maximized if there was a multi-
               | millimeter air gap, followed by a very hot surface
               | (Radiation doesn 't scale linearly with temperature).
               | 
               | The foil also has a downside for insulatitive
               | properties... The aluminium the foil is made out of
               | conducts heat very well. That means if part of the wall
               | is leaking some heat (for example has a nail through it),
               | then the foil will spread that head sideways through the
               | wall, increasing overall losses, sometimes dramatically.
        
               | b3morales wrote:
               | The "good" reason is often that the seller can talk the
               | buyer into a higher price for the extra "feature". It can
               | even be higher _marginally_ : i.e. insulation costs $0.50
               | to manufacture, and they can sell it for $1; adding foil
               | costs an additional $0.15 but now they can charge $1.50.
               | This is common, even pervasive, with consumer pricing.
        
       | janandonly wrote:
       | Not sure I agree with Apple's recommendations.
       | don't give your 2.4GHz and 5GHz bands different names.
       | 
       | I purposefully did set different names for these two band. I also
       | _only_ gave all my devices the password for the 5GHz band.
       | Because latency is lower on that band.
       | 
       | I cannot disable 2.4GHz band because my old WiFi printer doesn't
       | support the 5GHz but if it wasn't for that I would disable it
       | altogether.
        
         | orev wrote:
         | I feel like the concept of using different names for each band
         | is like the old habits where people would disable auto-speed
         | negotiation on Ethernet. It used to cause a problem when it
         | first came out, but all of those issues were solved long ago,
         | and yet it has become lore for most network admins. It's
         | finally going away since 1Gb _requires_ auto-speed, however I
         | have no doubt many would still be disabling it if they could.
         | 
         | Same with the WiFi names. If systems can't handle auto
         | switching to the correct band, then fix those systems. Devices
         | can easily handle roaming between different APs with the same
         | SSID, and this should be no different.
         | 
         | Edit: I do see the point of doing it if you want to control the
         | band usage, however I think that should be a special case and
         | not considered the "standard" way to do things for regular
         | people.
        
           | fnordpiglet wrote:
           | I separate them because things often do poor band choosing
           | and things too far from an AP are using 5ghz when they should
           | be picking 2.4 at that range. By separating I can choose
           | which band I want this thing based on the coverage topology.
           | Fwiw I've never found band steering to work well.
           | 
           | Finally I also selectively put devices into 2.4 just to keep
           | my 5 band clearer.
        
           | yakkityyak wrote:
           | Devices should have settings to explicitly prefer or only
           | allow certain bands for a given SSID. Again it's a device
           | problem.
        
         | legulere wrote:
         | The problem with the 5 GHz band is that it can be turned off
         | any time because of radar:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_frequency_selection
        
           | simoncion wrote:
           | Only certain slices of it. The article you linked to mentions
           | the frequencies in the US that must use DFS. This table in
           | the article _it_ links to goes into much more detail. <https:
           | //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_WLAN_channels#4.9%E2%8...>
           | 
           | Look for the cells that contain "DFS" to see on which
           | channels APs are required to channel hop if they believe they
           | have heard radar.
           | 
           | In my personal experience, channel hopping works fine.
        
           | exikyut wrote:
           | Ooooh. Now I wanna find out how I can fly over an area with a
           | drone and make pictures like the example!
           | 
           | On a somewhat smaller, more theoretical note, I wonder what
           | "a radar signal" is as far as a Wi-Fi SoC is concerned.
           | Sounds like the wild-west, much-trickier-to-block counterpart
           | to the old deauth packet attack. At least the FCC/etc can get
           | shouty if needed...
           | 
           | Edit: Oh, right, it only goes offline if channel selection is
           | manual. And presumably radar only uses the one band (?) so
           | you couldn't flood it out or play cat and mouse.
           | 
           | Hmph, this is actually well designed. Given that this
           | requires pretending to be a radar you might as well switch to
           | a smaller pot of hot water and just get a 5.8GHz signal
           | jammer.
        
       | Avamander wrote:
       | It's actually really annoying that it shows a permanent Privacy
       | Warning for disabling "Private WiFi address" you can't disable on
       | trustworthy networks. Apple you don't know, so stop speculating,
       | mkay.
       | 
       | The rest is nice though, bad configurations finally display a
       | warning. People harden their WiFi configurations which is nice.
        
         | JoBrad wrote:
         | Agreed. It would be nice if you could specify a network add
         | your home network, and private address would just be disabled
         | there.
        
       | newsclues wrote:
       | Please make a modern airport base station.
        
         | spamboy wrote:
         | Seriously, this. I run an enterprise grade Meraki deployment
         | (router and access point) with all the 802.11ax bells and
         | whistles. I have 8 HomePods/minis in a ~1000 sq ft space. They
         | can reliably play music all synced up maybe... 20% of the time?
         | It'd be really great if Apple just provided an AP that would
         | drive them without issues.
        
       | hjuutilainen wrote:
       | Two more useful and related Apple KB articles:
       | 
       | macOS wireless roaming for enterprise customers
       | https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT206207
       | 
       | About wireless roaming for enterprise
       | https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203068
        
         | exikyut wrote:
         | This is an offtopic side-track/distraction, but I've been
         | _completely_ thrown by the masking in the screenshots and
         | example CSV dump.
         | 
         | The first thing I'm distracted by in the expanded Wi-Fi menu in
         | the first link is "Address: xx:x0:00:00:x0:00:00". wHaT wErE
         | tHe 'x's bEfOrE?? Why mask out the first 11/2 octets of the MAC
         | when the first 3 octets are manufacturer-specific and (IIUC)
         | would have been one of Apple's prefixes, and given that the
         | assignment is apparently random1 this would practically have
         | leaked absolutely nothing. Next, the first half of the 5th
         | octet is an 'x'. wHy??//? what does it mean
         | 
         | Further down in the menu we have... OwO what's this(tm), a  IP
         | address? "010.101.0.10"? Do I briefly switch to octal to parse
         | that first octet? Pretty impressed the Mac in question is the
         | network's router though - especially given it's a Wi-Fi
         | network. Oh - sorry, you got a bit of sarcasm on you there, let
         | me get it off :P
         | 
         | Then we have the scan window further down in the same article.
         | OK, so the distribution of noughts and crosses :) is apparently
         | correlated with the security setting (the protocols are all
         | over the place and seem to represent different routers). I
         | honestly don't get it.
         | 
         | Moving onto the next article, ...oh no the 'X's have gotten
         | angry and are now in UPPERCASE! I wonder where
         | "01:01:00:01:XX:01" is??? "10:01:10:01:X0:10" looks positively
         | scary.
         | 
         | A small tangent is required to remark about how _everything
         | that has ever happens on an iPhone happens at 09:41_ really has
         | gone so far as to be unrealistic. The original idea was just to
         | have the marketing materials acknowledge when iPhone went live
         | at WWDC. These screenshots with the  "scan result: 09:41:45 AM"
         | are absurd, both because iOS 11 did not exist back then, and
         | because it would not be possible to practically do a network
         | scan and deployment at the exact same nanosecond the OS you're
         | supposedly supposed to be using is being debuted. The one event
         | categorically predates the other. Hmph.
         | 
         | OK, moving to the bottom of this article we get the...
         | notascreenshotsoapparentlytheartdepartmentcantseeit(tm) CSV
         | data. With confusion inside(c)! Firstly, unfortunately I don't
         | know how to do a "this SSID _and_ this SSID within 10km of each
         | other " search, so I don't know if ACES and Cuba are actually
         | real, but what I _can_ say is that while the first listed MAC
         | address turns out to be invalid (makes sense), the second and
         | third entries are Apple-prefixed - _which doesn 't make any
         | sense since this is supposed to be a list of access points, not
         | client devices_ - but in any case, _both MACs are valid and
         | resolve to a street address_ - wat, apple? u ok? - and while
         | the second MAC only has one entry, the third has a location
         | history that includes an address  <10 meters away from the
         | second one. Hi developer who gets around!
         | 
         | 1 https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/49948/differentiat.
         | .., http://www.coffer.com/mac_find/?string=apple
        
       | exabrial wrote:
       | How does the carrier wifi network thing work? Some sort of radius
       | auth?
        
       | andix wrote:
       | Funny thing about WPA3: it works with all my devices (including a
       | 12 year old think pad x201s), but only on Linux. On windows they
       | all can't do WPA3, because the cards are ,,unsupported for WPA3".
        
         | oneplane wrote:
         | The difference is probably in the way WPA is handled; WPA
         | Supplicant can be made to work with any radio module that
         | supports passing through the authentication and encryption. But
         | Windows doesn't use WPA Supplicant and instead relies on each
         | manufacturer to make sure their driver either has its own WPA
         | Supplicant or uses on-chip authentication and encryption in the
         | WiFi module itself.
         | 
         | The big difference between them is that on Linux it will work,
         | but heavy traffic will eat CPU cycles. On Windows it simply
         | might not work at all, but when it does, and if the driver is
         | not written by 1000 monkeys on typewriters, it can offload a
         | lot of heavy lifting to the WiFi ASIC.
         | 
         | I'd say that in all cases, the WiFi chip manufacturers are to
         | blame, but the software fallback that WPA supplicant provides
         | should really be the lowest bar any device or OS should be able
         | to pass.
        
           | spookthesunset wrote:
           | I did not know that the system could push the encryption and
           | auth up to the CPU. Always assumed the card did all the heavy
           | lifting.
           | 
           | Very interesting!
        
           | zekica wrote:
           | Only authentication will not be offloaded, actual data
           | encryption still is.
           | 
           | The only exception is if your driver doesn't support
           | management frame protection (802.11w). Then, if your AP has
           | 11w enabled or you are using WPA3, it will use software
           | encryption.
           | 
           | ath9k, ath10k, ath11k, ath9k_htc, ath6kl, brcmfmac, brcmsmac,
           | iwlwifi, iwlegacy, mt76, mwifiex, mwl8k, rtl8xxxu, all
           | rtl8xxxe drivers support 11w, while some others: rt2xxxpci
           | rt2xxxusb, ipw2200, carl9170 don't.
        
             | oneplane wrote:
             | In the old days we needed a lot of tricks because firmware
             | loading either didn't work or we didn't have the firmware
             | binaries yet, so even (IIRC) ath9k didn't utilise on-ASIC
             | for everything. But that was in the B (and maybe G) days.
        
         | vetinari wrote:
         | > but only on Linux
         | 
         | Are you using wpa_supplicant 2.9? Do not update to 2.10!
         | 
         | I had the same experience with 2.9, but with 2.10, I cannot
         | connect at all, not even with WPA2 (with WPA2+3 Transitional on
         | the AP). Downgraded back to 2.9 and it works again.
        
           | exikyut wrote:
           | 1. Why?! (Yelled in wpa_supplicant's general direction, not
           | yours)
           | 
           | 2. What error messages were you seeing in wpa_cli, out of
           | curiosity?
        
             | vetinari wrote:
             | https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1195395
             | 
             | https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2050840
             | 
             | Reading through the opensuse bugzilla I tried again, and it
             | works! NetworkManager 1.38+ needed. It is interesting, that
             | the fix is in NetworkManager (https://bugzilla.opensuse.org
             | /show_bug.cgi?id=1195395#c47).
        
           | jlarocco wrote:
           | Interesting. I had the hardest time getting wpa_supplicant
           | working on a new Debian install last weekend, and eventually
           | gave up and switched to iwd, which was new to me, but worked
           | immediately
           | 
           | Checking now, I have wpa_supplicant 2.10, so I wonder how
           | much of my problem was due to that.
           | 
           | iwd's been great so far - I'm no expert so maybe there are
           | technical advantages, but I don't see any reason to go back
           | to wpa_supplicant.
        
           | glowingly wrote:
           | I bypassed WPA supplicant on Tumbleweed, and manually setup
           | the connection.
           | 
           | I did think it was rather odd that my WiFi AP stopped
           | allowing my linux laptop to connect, even though it worked
           | right before I moved from Fedora -> Tumbleweed. But even a
           | new Fedora live ISO (I guess all Fedora ISOs are live by
           | default) was unable to connect.
           | 
           | Eventually figured it was the current version of WPA
           | Supplicant at fault, not the WiFi AP, and not the HW in my
           | laptop. But it is somewhat annoying when something that
           | worked just an hour ago, flatly doesn't.
        
           | pantalaimon wrote:
           | Does it work with iwd?
        
             | vetinari wrote:
             | Yes, but WPA2-only, just like Windows.
        
           | andix wrote:
           | No idea. I use Ubuntu. And it just works. That's what I want,
           | and I prefer not to know more ;)
        
             | deepsun wrote:
             | Good for you, but on this site curiosity is explicitly
             | encouraged.
        
               | gjs278 wrote:
        
         | haupt wrote:
         | I hope this isn't a preview of the future chaos in store for
         | anybody trying to use a device not certified by MS for use with
         | Windows.
        
           | andix wrote:
           | In this case it is not certified by Intel, the WiFi card
           | manufacturer.
        
             | haupt wrote:
             | I see, thank you.
        
       | wildekek wrote:
       | Most problems with Apple products and WiFi are related to
       | multicast settings. Not a single word about it in the article.
        
         | muppetman wrote:
         | Care to elaborate? My experience, limited though it is, seems
         | to point more to DTIM interval. Which wifi setting that impacts
         | multicast do you mean?
        
           | tinus_hn wrote:
           | Probably it's igmp snoop, which kind of a protocol violation.
           | It's understandable because multicast over WiFi is really a
           | problem, especially if you're transmitting a TV stream, but
           | if the snoop implementation is poor or out of date you'll end
           | up breaking anything based on mDNS/Bonjour, so pretty much
           | Apple build the last decade, and it's difficult to diagnose.
           | 
           | If you have TV based on multicast, put it on a separate VLAN
           | so it doesn't end up spreading over your whole lan.
        
             | NobodyNada wrote:
             | Do you happen to have any resources/tools/ideas on how to
             | troubleshoot this? I'm having issues with mDNS sometimes
             | just not working on a network I maintain. I can run
             | Wireshark on two devices and see that one is sending out
             | mDNS queries and the other isn't receiving them at all.
             | 
             | It's not just mDNS though; all multicast traffic is
             | affected (sometimes ARP doesn't even work, and I can't ping
             | the other device by IP).
        
               | klabb3 wrote:
               | I've had an issue where mdns transmit would cease after X
               | minutes uptime on windows. Nothing even shows up in
               | Wireshark. I'm still not sure why but I'm assuming the
               | NIC driver for windows didn't like it. Switching from
               | wifi to ethernet fixed the problem. Switching to Linux
               | (same machine) also fixed the problem.
               | 
               | Oh and it was only certain multicast udp that was
               | affected. Regular ip broadcast still worked.
        
       | qzw wrote:
       | I've tried using the same SSID for 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz but find that
       | some devices (my kids' Fire tablets, for example) end up hanging
       | on to a weak 5Ghz connection when they would've been better off
       | switching to 2.4Ghz. But if the bands have different SSIDs, I can
       | at least easily force them to switch manually.
        
         | yakkers wrote:
         | I've had mixed results depending on devices -- my Apple devices
         | tend to hop between bands and APs quite excellently.
         | 
         | On the other end, I've got a Nintendo Switch which stubbornly
         | sticks to the first AP / band (I'm running a few APs with the
         | same SSID/PSK) combination it grabbed onto during network
         | setup. Even if I move completely out of range of the AP/band it
         | grabbed onto it'll refuse to acknowledge other APs/bands until
         | you run network setup again.
         | 
         | Everything else I deal with tends to be much closer to the
         | former than the latter, thankfully. I don't use non-standard
         | stuff like UniFi band steering, as it is known to cause issues
         | due to non-standard behaviour.
        
           | jquery wrote:
           | Turning off Unifi Band steering was key to fixing my
           | moonlight home streaming setup. That and disabling 2.4Ghz
           | entirely for the network I use to stream on. Also manually
           | picking the fastest channel by checking each one individually
           | and testing it. Now I can stream 4k VR @ 72 hz no problem.
           | Haven't had to touch my router settings since doing this.
           | 
           | My situation is so many nearby unique Wi-Fi networks, >160
           | detectable by my router alone. Lends itself to interference
           | issues if not done perfectly.
        
           | andix wrote:
           | Nintendo Switch wifi is the worst. Mine is places 2m next to
           | the router and can only do around 25 mbits. All other devices
           | I own do at least 200-500 mbits.
        
             | germinalphrase wrote:
             | The entire Nintendo wifi/online experience is so poor.
        
               | andix wrote:
               | Yeah, I only use it for downloading games.
               | 
               | I think the Switch is the wrong console if you want to
               | play online. It's made for playing offline/mobile and
               | playing with friends on split screen. And it's awesome
               | for that.
        
               | sgarman wrote:
               | I know but splatoon is so awesome. I really wish there
               | was a PC version.
        
               | exikyut wrote:
               | * _Sound of Googling_ *
               | 
               | -> https://github.com/Ryujinx/Ryujinx-Games-
               | List/issues/703
        
               | jquery wrote:
               | This happens to be the only way for some of us to play
               | region-locked games like Tsukihime.
        
             | dundarious wrote:
             | Agreed, I had to go wired to get any kind of decent
             | connection, and then I'm behind CGNAT so I can't play Mario
             | Kart 8 with it (for that game, I just use my phone as a
             | hotspot and suffer).
        
             | jquery wrote:
             | Yeah, it takes its sweet time downloading large games. I
             | get about 40mbps. On the upside, Switch games tend to be
             | much smaller than their next-gen counterparts.
             | 
             | The key to a happy Switch life is a large micro sd card.
             | Fortunately even 1tb are affordable now.
        
         | jon_adler wrote:
         | My Ubiquiti WAPs support band steering with a minimum signal
         | strength setting for 5Ghz. Perhaps you could upgrade to get a
         | better experience?
        
           | geoduck14 wrote:
           | I use that feature on my Dream Machine. It doesn't really
           | help. My laptop will still hop on the wrong band or AP, or my
           | phone will drop off if I'm in the back yard. Meh
        
           | mijoharas wrote:
           | I had a minimum rssi set for an ubiquiti access points 5ghz
           | channel. The client would just keep reconnecting to the 5ghz
           | channel and getting kicked immediately. I had to manually
           | lock that device to a specific band and access point.
           | Insanely bad software on the client and very frustrating.
        
           | vetinari wrote:
           | The decision is always client side, just like with roaming.
           | 
           | There are ways to influence the client, which is basically
           | what Ubiquiti is doing (and the client can ignore), and the
           | last resort is to always kick the client once the signal is
           | below some threshold.
        
             | fullstop wrote:
             | They can be configured to kick the client off if rssi falls
             | below a given level. It's a poor man's 802.11r.
        
               | mijoharas wrote:
               | I outlined some problems with a client when doing this
               | [0]. Very frustrating.
               | 
               | [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32288095
        
           | presto8 wrote:
           | In addition to band steering (which is moving between bands
           | on the same AP), there is also Wi-Fi EasyMesh[1] which allows
           | multiple APs to coordinate with each other (over wired or
           | wireless backhaul) to steer STAs (clients) between APs.
           | However, the Ubiquiti AP is not certified for EasyMesh[2].
           | 
           | [1] https://www.wi-fi.org/discover-wi-fi/wi-fi-easymesh
           | 
           | [2] https://www.wi-fi.org/content/search-page?keys=ubiquiti
        
           | NickRandom wrote:
           | It is often the _device_ that needs better band steering
           | abilities and the Access Point can't do much to force the
           | issue.
           | 
           | Or did you mean that the GP should upgrade both their WAP AND
           | all of the their connecting equipment?
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | ArtWomb wrote:
         | And what's this Wifi 6 business? Am still upgrading devices to
         | 5! Is there a new 802.11x standard? If service is (barely) 1
         | gig, and most end users dont notice degrading, why bother?
         | 
         | Everyone also recommends the eero wifi mesh. But I'm hesitant.
         | There's probably a hack to turn a jetson nano or rpi4 into a
         | repeater ;)
        
           | andix wrote:
           | I see wifi 6 as a mature version of wifi 5. It provides
           | similar features, but is just much more reliable.
        
           | Avamander wrote:
           | > If service is (barely) 1 gig, and most end users dont
           | notice degrading, why bother?
           | 
           | Because there's really more to it than just raw bandwidth.
           | 
           | Either with the new protocol itself or with the new hardware
           | that supports the protocol, you'll get other improvements
           | besides raw bandwitdh. A WiFi 6 AP in this case should in
           | theory provide you better security (WPA3, PMF1), antenna
           | design2, power savings3, lower latency and lower
           | interference4.
           | 
           | There are other improvements as well that might now be
           | included with new AP's, but as they're not mandatory to
           | implement it depends on the AP. Just like PMF was an optional
           | feature with previous WiFi.
           | 
           | --
           | 
           | 1 - Protected Management Frames (802.11w) simplified
           | protection against deauth attacks. Could also mean it is
           | enabled for WiFi 5 devices, previously a very
           | enterprise/high-end only feature.
           | 
           | 2 - The higher requirements of WiFi 6 will most likely mean
           | that WiFi 5 clients will also reap some benefits. Lower
           | packet loss, better range, actual MU-MIMO and better
           | beamforming even individually might be a large step-up for
           | some.
           | 
           | 3 - Target Wake Time - scheduling better when targets wake up
           | 
           | 4 - BSS coloring
        
           | oneplane wrote:
           | Repeaters and meshes are generally a bad idea, repeaters
           | specifically.
           | 
           | Unless you live in a large concrete bunker, having 1 or 2
           | well-placed access points with wired connections is all you
           | really have to invest in for most personal living scenarios.
        
           | dzhiurgis wrote:
           | Latest macbooks is a downgrade even when it got wifi6. Used
           | to max out at 650mbps, now it's 450mbps
        
             | methyl wrote:
             | My MBP 16 m1 easily does 750mbps with Unifi 6 LR
        
           | xyzzy_plugh wrote:
           | WiFi 6 makes a big difference in congested environments, in
           | my experience. In an urban office, clients of our WiFi 6 APs
           | get roughly 2x throughput (~200-300mbps) than peers on 5.
           | It's borderline impossible to saturate the uplink at max
           | speeds for any network when there's congestion, but the
           | improvements to client isolation are substantial IMO.
        
           | hedora wrote:
           | Eero is set up so that Amazon can snoop your local network,
           | and/or use it to create a shadow network to defeat IoT air
           | gaps. I assume they do, or at least will eventually.
           | 
           | Look at how they've been behaving over time with Nest.
        
           | vetinari wrote:
           | Wifi is a shared medium; just because it can keep up with
           | your service, doesn't mean it can keep up with yours and your
           | neighbors services. Wifi 6 brings better modulation schemes
           | and OFDMA support, which helps with multiple devices co-
           | existing.
           | 
           | Also, wifi is not just last hop to the internet. Don't you
           | have services in your local network, like NAS?
        
         | rektide wrote:
         | It's not out-of-the-box perfect, but I've had decent luck using
         | DAWN, which targets openwrt, to get decent bandsteering. I can
         | always ssh in (I personally havent been interested in
         | installing/trying the "luci" web interface) & move someone
         | between bands if I need to. My understanding is it's typically
         | thr network nit clients that is supposed to be in charge of
         | bandsteering & that devices hanging on to what they lock on to
         | is the norm, typical.
         | 
         | Also, this setup works across & steers clients between my
         | multiple access points!
         | 
         | It's amazing being able to ssh in and see a map of what signals
         | each AP sees. DAWN periodically asks clients to help map, so
         | even if the AP's are on different bands, you can still compare
         | what the signal would be if the node moved.
         | 
         | We'ee finally living in a pretty good time for open source
         | wifi. A pity how only a couple chips have support (select
         | MediaTek and Qualcomm) but wow things have gotten much better.
         | 
         | https://github.com/berlin-open-wireless-lab/DAWN
        
         | Saris wrote:
         | My Unifi APs have a minimum RSSI of -80dBm set on the 5ghz
         | band, which helps a lot. Maybe your router/ap has that setting
         | somewhere?
        
         | guidedlight wrote:
         | Your router needs to support 802.11k for devices to reliably
         | switch between wifi networks using the same SSID.
         | 
         | This is normally a feature offered by enterprise or pro-
         | consumer equipment.
        
           | oneplane wrote:
           | Works fine without K or R, but then the client has to do more
           | work and lots of client devices have bad software on them. On
           | top of that, while K and R can help, even then it needs to
           | work with the client to have all the benefits.
        
           | xrisk wrote:
           | openwrt offers this. Another reason to install it whenever
           | you can!
        
         | reaperducer wrote:
         | Canon printers also can't handle 2.4 and 5 networks with the
         | same SSID.
         | 
         | The workaround is to give a spare 2.4 router the same SSID as
         | your real router. turn off your real router. Connect the
         | printer to the 2.4 router so it can be configured. Then put the
         | spare router back in storage and turn your main router on
         | again. The printer will then connect to the 2.4 signal of the
         | main router.
         | 
         | Really disappointed in Canon not being able to handle multiple
         | SSIDs, and eero for disabling the feature of having different
         | SSIDs for different frequencies.
        
           | stordoff wrote:
           | For Eero, there is now an option to disable 5GHz for ten
           | minutes in order to connect some troublesome devices. It
           | might work for connecting such a printer.
        
         | andix wrote:
         | I usually have the opposite issue, devices staying on (slow)
         | 2,4 GHz directly next to the router. I would like to copy some
         | files, and switching to 5 Ghz would vastly improve performance.
         | But the device just doesn't.
         | 
         | I solved it by just disabling 2,4 ghz and adding enough
         | repeaters/APs so I have coverage everywhere.
        
           | t0bia_s wrote:
           | I solved few issues by disabling 5 Ghz. It won't work in next
           | room anyway, walls are to strong. So there is no reason to
           | have 5 Ghz on.
        
           | spookthesunset wrote:
           | I just create a dedicated 5ghz SSID and then a "mixed" SSID I
           | can dump all the low bandwidth crap onto. All the laptops and
           | phones live on the 5ghz and the rest can figure it out on
           | their own.
        
           | xuki wrote:
           | This is the way. Everything on 5GHz, unique SSID for 2.4Ghz
           | IOT devices and buy enough APs. Life is too short to debug
           | wifi problems.
        
             | andix wrote:
             | Exactly. While I was using 2,4 GHz I had a lot of random
             | issues. Probably faulty/bad WiFi devices from neighbours.
             | Since I switched to 5 GHz they are all gone. The higher
             | frequency is probably blocked by the walls enough, not to
             | interfere.
        
       | eBombzor wrote:
       | If you live in an apartment please turn down the transmit power
       | for the sake of everyone in the building.
        
       | cmeacham98 wrote:
       | > It's usually best to enable every mode offered by your router,
       | rather then a subset of those modes. All devices, including older
       | devices, can then connect using the fastest radio mode they
       | support. This also helps reduce interference from nearby legacy
       | networks and devices.
       | 
       | Is this really the best advice? My (limited) understanding is
       | that if a device connects with an older standard everyone gets
       | slowed down by this. My router has a setting it calls "Airtime
       | Fairness" that purports to combat this.
        
         | zekica wrote:
         | Airtime fairness helps a lot but if a 11b device connects, you
         | automatically lose 1/3 of the throughput even when that device
         | is not active. 11g can also slow down others but only a couple
         | percent. Also, if you disable 11b rates you can have more SSID
         | beacons (more networks) in parallel as the beacon is then
         | transmitted at 6Mbps PSK instead of 1Mbps DSSS.
        
       | tzs wrote:
       | > Make sure that your device has Location Services turned on for
       | Wi-Fi networking, because regulations in each country or region
       | define the Wi-Fi channels and wireless signal strength allowed
       | there.
       | 
       | That one surprised me.
       | 
       | I'd have expected that there would be a field in the data
       | broadcast from the router that identified what country's or
       | region's regulations it is operating under, and that client
       | devices designed to handle multiple multiple countries or regions
       | would use that to select channels and power levels that are legal
       | there.
        
         | jeffbee wrote:
         | There is. The wifi beacon frame contains regulatory
         | information.
         | https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/80211-wireless-networks...
         | 
         | I also find it odd that Apple recommends this since users must
         | disable location services on M1 mac mini systems to make the
         | wifi work. It's just flat out broken and has been that way
         | since they launched it.
        
           | icebergonfire wrote:
           | I don't want to invalidate your experience, but allow me to
           | offer an anecdata counterpoint: Wifi works perfectly on my M1
           | Mac Mini and has since day 1 (to the point I never bothered
           | to wire it up), and I have location services enabled.
           | 
           | I wonder what other variables are in play here that make it
           | not work for you.
        
             | jeffbee wrote:
             | Not sure either but if you google it you'll see I'm not
             | alone.
        
         | tracnar wrote:
         | A rogue AP could then trick devices into breaking regulations
         | :)
        
       | culopatin wrote:
       | Is it actually good to have the same name for 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz
       | SSIDs? Would devices always pick the 5Ghz if they can? I don't
       | want to be connected to 2.4 all the time just because it might
       | have a marginally better signal strength and be limited to 2.4Ghz
       | speeds.
        
         | oynqr wrote:
         | The phone will pick 5GHz when it's both needed (the phone isn't
         | asleep) and it is actually faster than 2.4GHz. Forcing 5GHz is
         | bad when your phone is good at roaming.
        
         | misterdata wrote:
         | Some APs (eg Ubiquiti) can actually steer clients from one band
         | to the other based on minimum RSSI and other parameters
         | (including device compatibility, and you can exclude or force a
         | band for individual devices), which prevents this from
         | happening.
        
         | the_mitsuhiko wrote:
         | From my experience devices do a good job these days picking the
         | better of the two options. I notice that there are quite a
         | cases where in practice some devices get better performance by
         | picking 2.4 than 5. In particular I have some devices that
         | apparently learned to stay on 2.4 for longer because I move
         | them more between the different access points than for instance
         | my macbook.
        
         | exitheone wrote:
         | From my experience, both Android, Linux and Windows
         | consistently fail to use the faster 5ghz WiFi when starting out
         | on the 2.4ghz. That's why I still have two separate SSIDs at
         | home.
        
         | jwr wrote:
         | I've been doing this for many years now with excellent results.
         | Ubiquiti APs and mostly Apple devices, FWIW.
        
         | muppetman wrote:
         | Look up band-steering. There's many ways to make a client
         | prefer 5Ghz.
        
         | neilalexander wrote:
         | My experience with using the same SSID for both bands is that
         | _most_ devices will do the right thing, pick based on signal
         | strength and will reevaluate that choice fairly often. However,
         | a small number of devices (normally older or cheaper devices)
         | will often stick to a band until they have no other choice.
         | 
         | That said, a weaker 5GHz signal can sometimes still be better
         | or more stable than a stronger 2.4GHz signal since the risk of
         | interference in the 2.4GHz band is often much higher.
         | 
         | I've never ever had enough of an issue to worry about it.
        
         | n4bz0r wrote:
         | If your AP has similar functionality, I've seen one trick (or
         | hack, if you will) in Mikrotik talks [0] to make your devices
         | pick 5Ghz over 2.4Ghz.
         | 
         | TL;DW: Reduce 2.4Ghz AP's transmission power by approx 7db,
         | that's the 'magic' number that should 'even' the APs out.
         | 
         | I must say, though, never had an issue with devices picking a
         | wrong band so far.
         | 
         | [0] https://youtube.com/watch?v=JRbAqie1_AM&t=2054 (timestamp
         | included)
        
           | geoduck14 wrote:
           | I have that problem _all_ the time. I have Ubiquity DreM
           | Machine and an AP. My laptop in my office needs a solid
           | connection for video calls. I routinely picks a  "fast" 5Ghz
           | that drops packets instead of a "slow" 2.4 Ghz that is
           | "solid"
        
             | n4bz0r wrote:
             | That must be annoying. Here is another thing you could do
             | if tweaking the AP isn't an option. I don't have a 5Ghz
             | wireless adapter at hand, but from what I see on my 2.4Ghz
             | one, you should be able to set 'Wireless Mode' in the
             | adapter settings to 802.11ac (or 802.11ax if you're that
             | fancy :) ) to force 5Ghz. I recall having an option to
             | simply select the preferred band on some laptop adapters,
             | too, so you can use it, if it's available, instead.
             | 
             | I do that on Windows, but there must be something similar
             | on Mac/Unix, too. I think these options are basically
             | driver-related so the OS choice ultimately shouldn't
             | matter.
             | 
             | edit: ah, realized I misread the post. Thought the "I
             | picks" was "it picks" :)
        
           | toast0 wrote:
           | Dropping transmission power on the APs helps a lot of clients
           | make better roaming decisions anyway. I did it for my 2.4ghz
           | aps and see a lot less of client barely communicating with a
           | far away access point rather than switching.
        
         | 1ncorrect wrote:
         | I've configured dozens of networks over the past decade to use
         | the same SSID for both bands, and have never observed a real
         | world issue with myriad clients. The only tweak is sometimes
         | the 2.4GHz Tx power needs to be dropped, but it's rare.
         | 
         | Some locations I've had to create additional bespoke SSIDs for
         | a specific band, but it's only because the customer has
         | explicitly requested it because they think it matters.
        
           | mleo wrote:
           | Pretty much same experience.
           | 
           | Weirdest bespoke network I have is one that only exists for
           | an LG washing machine. It's network stack eventually gets
           | corrupted when network isolation isn't enabled and receives
           | some sort of broadcast packets.
        
         | Terretta wrote:
         | It is, but ...
         | 
         | It's awkward enough in enough situations that self-configuring
         | wifi routers or wifi mesh devices such as "Eero" gave up
         | forcing both bands under one SSID and now have a special
         | trouble-shooting mode where they disable the 5Ghz SSID in order
         | to allow you to discover / configure craptacular IoT WiFi
         | devices. Then it re-enables 5GHz after 15 minutes and the bad
         | device will stick on 2.4.
        
           | jrm4 wrote:
           | Just got fiber to the home and they gave me a free Eero (and
           | more or less imply to the non-power users "this is what you
           | use now")
           | 
           | Despite my old situation being an absurd mess of repeaters
           | and powerline ethernet, it's still a better experience than
           | the Eero. I went back to the old stuff.
           | 
           | (ps, definitely don't want to knock Metronet. They've been
           | GREAT so far. I've had NO troubles at all being a power user,
           | i.e. getting Static IP and such set up)
        
       | thedougd wrote:
       | My Mac displays a permanent warning that my AP name isn't unique
       | enough. Funny enough, I've never seen anyone else use it in the
       | wild.
        
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       (page generated 2022-07-30 23:00 UTC)