[HN Gopher] Brazil's cars have run on 'green fuel' for a century...
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Brazil's cars have run on 'green fuel' for a century, but not
without costs
Author : Thevet
Score : 63 points
Date : 2022-07-29 22:24 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.historytoday.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.historytoday.com)
| jaredhallen wrote:
| I admittedly don't know much about this byproduct, and I do see
| mentioned that it's highly acidic. But if it causes algae blooms
| it makes me wonder if there's some sort of processing opportunity
| that could repurpose it for fertilizer.
| speeder wrote:
| My extended family lives near a place where using it as
| fertilizer is common. It works wonderfully, also it is
| incredibly smelly, the reason it is used there is because there
| are no cities there, just gigantic prairies, as soon you get
| near a city the smell stops (implying people there aren't using
| it as fertilizer).
| TrueSlacker0 wrote:
| From Wikipedia
|
| "In the past, vinasse was a problem in production of ethanol,
| but vinasse is also a good fertilizer (at least for some time)
| and a source of methane that can be used to generate heat or
| electricity. Moreover, other uses of vinasse involving also the
| formulation of nutritive solutions for hydroponics, formulation
| of culture media for plant tissue culture and culture media for
| algal growth."
|
| Seems like it's only a problem because it's being dumped and
| not being purchased for reuse.
| machinerychorus wrote:
| It's mentioned in the article, but doesn't go into detail about
| why it hasn't caught on
|
| > Continued problems with vinasse-dumping marred the sugar-
| ethanol industry's environmental image, even as specialists
| encouraged repurposing the nitrogen-heavy byproduct as a
| fertiliser. Today, compliance with anti-dumping legislation is
| still not effectively enforced.
| littlealpiste wrote:
| E verdade
| goodpoint wrote:
| Reminder: biofuels made from corn are not sustainable at all.
|
| They compete against plant agriculture for access to land, making
| food more expensive.
|
| Often they also use a lot of energy, water and produce CO2 during
| the farming process.
| jokoon wrote:
| And they produce co2 anyway.
|
| I don't think they capture as much co2 as they release.
| Kye wrote:
| Most of Brazil's ethanol is made from sugarcane.
| lvxferre wrote:
| >Reminder: biofuels made from corn are not sustainable at all.
|
| Reminder: you should read the article before commenting, to not
| make a fool out of yourself.
|
| Maize is not relevant in this discussion. RTA and you'll see
| why.
| kkfx wrote:
| Ethanol have another more important issue: producible quantity.
| Brazil have peculiar climate in most of the country, it can, most
| other countries simply can not. That's not a matter of
| environmental or economical costs but a mere physical feasibility
| limit.
|
| That's an important aspects too many tend to fail considering,
| for instance "hey, but we can made antarctic bases with food
| self-sufficiency", yes, we can, for a single base and very few
| humans inside. With the work of hundred, thousand of others and a
| tremendous effort: the fact something is doable and done and does
| work at a certain scale does not means it can work at every
| scale.
| danans wrote:
| Given Brazil's huge hydro power resources and it's huge solar
| potential, ethanol based plug-in hybrids with smaller (hence less
| expensive) batteries could be a great way to move off petroleum
| fuels while also minimizing the use of ethanol.
|
| Of course that might be a hard sell given the importance of the
| ethanol production industry in the economy.
|
| But it might be a good strategy for countries that don't yet have
| the purchasing power to support a market for pure EVs.
| Retric wrote:
| Pure EV's prices keep dropping to the point where oil doesn't
| look price competitive 5 years from now let alone ethanol.
|
| The 2023 Chevy Bolt has a 247 mile range and a $27,000 MSRP
| without government incentives. That's still a higher cost of
| ownership than a _used_ ICE, but things are getting a lot
| closer. https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/bolt-ev-2023
| golemiprague wrote:
| fragmede wrote:
| given the markets involved, look at the electric golf-cart
| sized cars coming out of China for a more competitive price
| point of several thousand us dollars, far cheaper than
| something on the us market.
| seibelj wrote:
| I keep being told EVs being cost effective are right around
| the corner, yet the prices for clean energy on my electric
| bill are 35% higher and government subsidies for the industry
| are never ending.
| lvass wrote:
| People are also notoriously bad at managing their money. If
| you have the money and suck at using it, EVs and solar
| panels make a lot more sense, and you should actually do
| it, we really need to scale up those industries.
| seibelj wrote:
| Isn't the amount of mining waste extremely energy
| intensive to produce a single EV battery?
| danans wrote:
| Not compared to the lifetime energy intensity of driving
| a gasoline powered car.
| bergenty wrote:
| Not even close to even 5 years of fossil fuel usage in a
| car.
| reidjs wrote:
| That's mainly a talking point used by oil and gas
| lobbyists to keep their industry from getting crushed by
| alternative fuels and EVs
| seibelj wrote:
| I really don't think they are worried considering coal
| usage is at an all-time high and the US president is
| going to dictators begging for oil, hat in hand.
| danans wrote:
| > the US president is going to dictators begging for oil,
| hat in hand.
|
| A big advantage of EVs is that presidents of the future
| shouldn't need to beg for oil as much, as road
| transportation energy supply market would be largely
| domestic.
|
| But we clearly aren't there yet.
| mxschumacher wrote:
| I feel like a broken record at this point, but even if a
| large part of passenger cars move to electric,
| industrialized countries still consume incredible amounts
| of fuel for: all planes, ships, trucks, freight trains,
| plastics, most fertilizers, heating, electricity
| production, road building etc
| mxschumacher wrote:
| Still incredible to consider how much material we'll have
| to dig out of the ground to deliver hundreds of GW of
| renewable electricity production potential in the form of
| solar and wind. For grid scale electricy storage, there's
| not enough Lithium and cobalt in the Earth's crust to
| build the needed capacity. Maybe widespread deployment of
| hydrogen can help
| Retric wrote:
| > For grid scale electricy storage, there's not enough
| Lithium and cobalt in the Earth's crust to build the
| needed capacity.
|
| That's widely incorrect. How exactly much batteries we
| need, what their chemistry should be is up for some
| debate as are exact numbers for commercially viable raw
| materials etc.
|
| But using the numbers from here https://en.wikipedia.org/
| wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth... and using the
| deepest mine * land area of earth gives enough lithium to
| build batteries to store roughly 200 years world of the
| total electricity generation of the entire planet.
|
| Clearly we are never going to actually mine that much
| lithium, but just as clearly we don't need anything like
| that much eitehr.
| Retric wrote:
| If you're buying a new car today the right EV's can easily
| have a lower TOC. The used market is based on what was
| manufactured 5-10+ years ago so it looks very different.
|
| In terms of clean energy, inflation adjusted US wholesale
| rates fell as we dramatically reduced the grids carbon
| footprint. 2022 is looking like a major anomaly, but that's
| in part because natural gas prices are through the roof due
| to Russia's invasion.
| googlryas wrote:
| That's probably because you're paying the feel-good tax,
| and not a true accounting of the costs. Just like how oat
| milk is more expensive than cow's milk at retail, even
| though oat milk is almost free to produce relative to cow
| milk.
| josephcsible wrote:
| But isn't the price of cow milk held artificially _high_?
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| > I keep being told EVs being cost effective are right
| around the corner, yet the prices for clean energy on my
| electric bill are 35% higher
|
| I don't see how that's relevant. The alternative for your
| house isn't powering it with gasoline.
|
| > and government subsidies for the industry are never
| ending
|
| You should expect that when it's still "around the corner".
|
| And it could make sense to continue subsidizing EV
| purchases once prices are similar. Or even beyond that, if
| you want new-ish EVs to be competitive with a bigger chunk
| of used gas cars in upfront price.
| mxschumacher wrote:
| In regards to battery degradation, how much of that range can
| I expect to see after the first 100000km?
| josephcsible wrote:
| If you assume the Model S and Model X are representative of
| other EVs, then about 94% of it:
| https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-
| dat...
|
| And keep in mind that degradation is fastest at the
| beginning, so at 200000km, you have about 92% of what you
| started with, not the 88% you'd expect if it were linear.
| mxschumacher wrote:
| Those numbers are phenomenal, hard to believe to be
| honest. Tesla owners, testing their Tesla's to publish
| results in a pro Tesla publication isn't exactly what I'm
| looking for. There must be scientific measurements
| writeups of these issues.
| lvxferre wrote:
| >Of course that might be a hard sell given the importance of
| the ethanol production industry in the economy.
|
| It's less important than it looks like, but it's backed up by a
| rather nasty political mafia.
|
| At least for SP/PR/SC/RS, a better approach is to simply forget
| that the Brazilian government exists, and implement measures to
| reduce fuel consumption. Such as building an actually usable
| trains infrastructure for goods transportation across cities,
| and investing further on public transportation for passengers
| inside large metropolises.
| forinti wrote:
| We already have dual fuel "flex" engines that run on gasoline,
| ethanol or any mixture of them.
|
| However, ethanol is too expensive south of Sao Paulo, so it is
| hardly ever used.
|
| Anyway, a flex/eletric hybrid would be very useful.
| greenthrow wrote:
| Ethanol is not a good solution. It's extremely inefficient to
| take solar radiation and turn it into corn, turn the corn into
| ethanol and then burn the ethanol for mechanical power.
|
| Just turn the solar radiation into electricity and turn that
| into power. Solar and EVs are here now.
| Carioca wrote:
| This is sugarcane ethanol and it is _way_ more efficient than
| corn ethanol
| greenthrow wrote:
| Not enough more efficient to matter compared to all the
| other inefficiencies.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| ethanol can be easily stored in large quantities and
| transported where it is needed
| greenthrow wrote:
| Electricity is much easier to transport than extremely
| heavy liquid fuel. Electricity is also easy to store
| despite what fossil fuel industry propaganda would have you
| believe.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| > Electricity is also easy to store despite what fossil
| fuel industry propaganda would have you believe.
|
| no need to assume I believe something because someone
| fooled me.
|
| Electricity is not easy to transport at all.
|
| It needs infrastructure that might not exist yet in some
| areas or would require massive investments.
|
| If electricity was so easy to transport we would not buy
| gas from Russia, we would buy the electricity directly
| from them.
|
| Simply put: transporting the fuel is easier and cheaper.
|
| Storing it for time of need is also a no brainer.
|
| Not because fossil fuel industry told me, but because it
| is what it is.
|
| Brasil loses 16% of their power production during
| distribution.
|
| Don't get me wrong, I love solar energy, I installed
| solar panels at my house and thanks to State incentives I
| paid zero of the 35k euros it would have costed, but
| unfortunately we are not there yet.
|
| http://insideenergy.org/2015/11/06/lost-in-transmission-
| how-...
| mxschumacher wrote:
| Completely false, if this were the case we wouldn't be in
| such trouble. Long duration electricity storage at a
| large scale and affordable price point is an unsolved
| problem, it's the holy grail of the renewable energy
| puzzle.
|
| Transportation of electricity over thousands of
| kilometers and through oceans is very hard as well.
| Routine with natural gas.
|
| Maybe best if you get the basics straight before jumping
| into the discussion.
| danans wrote:
| > Ethanol is not a good solution. It's extremely inefficient
| to take solar radiation and turn it into corn, turn the corn
| into ethanol and then burn the ethanol for mechanical power.
|
| Brazil uses sugar cane, which has better energy yield than
| corn for ethanol, due to it's higher caloric content. But
| yes, it is less efficient than direct solar to batteries.
|
| > Just turn the solar radiation into electricity and turn
| that into power. Solar and EVs are here now.
|
| Yes, but large battery vehicles are still to expensive in
| developing and middle income countries - they are just now
| getting affordable to the masses in developed countries.
|
| A smaller battery could easily offset 50-80% of ethanol
| fueled miles because most daily drives are short, so a
| smaller affordable PHEV with a 20kWh battery could offset a
| lot of liquid fuel usage.
| greenthrow wrote:
| Sugar cane's advantage over corn is not enough to fix the
| underlying inefficiency of the entire chain.
| danans wrote:
| Which is why PHEVs could be a way to minimize dependency
| on that chain without requiring everyone to purchase an
| EV with an 80kWh+ battery.
| speeder wrote:
| Brazillian Ethanol is made with Sugar Cane, not corn. And it
| is reasonably efficient, much better than corn ethanol that
| is just stupid.
|
| To make corn ethanol you get an energy loss actually, the
| energy usage to grow and process the corn, for example to
| power the tractors and so on, is bigger than the energy you
| can get burning it.
|
| US government solution for this is spetacularly boneheaded
| too.
|
| So USA has so much corn because it has corn subsidies. This
| is the reason for USA using the terrible for health corn
| syrup too instead of sugar from cane.
|
| Then USA government decided to give ethanol subsidies to
| incentive green fuels.
|
| Result is people make corn ethanol, get 2 subsidies, pollute
| a bit and cause a net energy loss.
|
| So USA government decided solution was give a even bigger
| subsidy to sugar cane ethanol.
|
| Result is Brazillians make sugar cane ethanol, sell to US
| companies, those companies collect the subsidy from it, buy
| corn ethanol that has 2 subsidies on that thus is extra
| cheap, sell back to Brazillians.
|
| So now you have USA government giving 3 subsidies that result
| in people making a ton of corn ethanol, causing energy loss,
| and shipping it to Brazil, while Brazillians ship cane
| ethanol back, the shipping in question being done with Diesel
| ships.
|
| Sometimes I wonder what the fuck is wrong with USA government
| to think that such decisions are good idea, wasting a ton of
| taxpayer money on energy losing production process and
| encouraging Diesel-based ocean shipping all in the name of
| "green".
|
| It is not MY tax money though (I am Brazillian) so it is not
| like I can do anything about it.
| [deleted]
| greenthrow wrote:
| Sugar cane ethanol still has incredible energy losses.
| Processing it into ethanol is an energy loss. Transporting
| it is a huge energy loss. And burning it is the worst. ICE
| engines are _at best_ 28% efficient. That 's a 70% loss.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| You're too focused on 'efficiency' here. The two
| processes are so wildly different that a 70% loss at
| certain stages isn't a big deal.
|
| A solar panel loses more than 70% of the power that hits
| it. But that doesn't disqualify it at all.
|
| And plants lose a ridiculous percent of energy right at
| the photosynthesis stage, but they'd still beat solar
| panels if solar panel prices went back a few decades.
| mxschumacher wrote:
| Importantly ethanol can be transported over vast distances
| and stored for long periods of time, both incredible and
| persistent challenges for electricity.
| chitowneats wrote:
| Please read TFA. Corn is not mentioned.
|
| Makes me wonder if your comment is literal copypasta, or
| merely figurative copypasta from US ecoactivism.
| greenthrow wrote:
| Corn vs sugar doesn't matter. It's all the other steps that
| make ethanol not worth it. I should have said sugar in my
| comment to be accurate to the article, but by far most
| ethanol is made from corn due to US corn subsidies which is
| why I mentioend corn.
| Maursault wrote:
| > Corn vs sugar doesn't matter.
|
| It really does. Corn ethanol takes a unit of fossil fuel
| to produce 1.3 units of ethanol, while sugar cane
| produces 9 units of ethanol for the same single unit of
| fossil fuel. I'm not sure what happened to switchgrass,
| but it's reportedly twice as efficient at producing
| ethanol as sugar cane, 20:1.
|
| Ethanol isn't a terrible idea, depending on its source
| (corn is bad, while sugar cane, sugar beets and
| switchgrass are good). The infrastructure is already in
| place, takes little cost or effort to convert a petrol
| vehicle to ethanol, and ethanol provides better
| performance in ICE vehicles than petroleum, though at the
| cost of slightly less milage. I think losing a little
| milage is a small price to pay for better performance,
| clean air, and no contribution to Climate Change.
| chitowneats wrote:
| It's hard to appreciate a good kludge. They can be very
| useful though in certain circumstances.
| forinti wrote:
| You're right, but a tank of ethanol will take you farther
| than batteries.
| Retric wrote:
| When EV's are hitting 350+ mile ranges that's becoming
| irrelevant.
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| Let me know when I can buy a 350-mile EV for 750 quid. So
| far that's how much the most expensive car I have ever
| bought cost.
| Retric wrote:
| 750 quid doesn't exactly cover fuel.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| but it works and before you spent 40k on fuel EVs are
| going to be a lot cheaper.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| but we are yet far from it, so it is not irrelevant.
|
| cars that run on ethanol are also cheaper than EVs and
| are going to stay cheaper for a long time.
| Retric wrote:
| Cheaper upfront, the problem is how much ethanol and
| gasoline costs. It's the same reason people put solar on
| their roof, sure it costs more on day 1 but for most
| people lowering the electric bill more than compensates.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| TCO is not so relevant if you don't have the upfront
| money.
|
| Reason why not many people buy new houses with lower TCO,
| they prefer to spend a bit more every month to heat/cool
| them, because they can squeeze the money out of their
| monthly budget, than spend 3x upfront.
|
| Solar panels are also heavily subsidized almost
| everywhere.
| Retric wrote:
| Unless you're paying cash for a house or car it's the
| monthly payment that's important more than the upfront
| cost.
|
| I don't know what the Brazil mortgage market is like, but
| having a mortgage that's larger and a keeping your other
| bills much smaller should be a net win without spending
| more out of pocket.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| that's for sure and I agree
|
| Speaking of my country, if you ask for a mortgage you
| usually have to put at least 20% of the total upfront and
| the bank can deny it for lack of guarantees or it's too
| large for your pockets.
|
| So on average people prefer to spend less than spend more
| and amortizing the difference in the future.
|
| For that reason there's been a quite successful program
| of State incentives in .y country to install solar panels
| or increase energy efficiency of buildings so that it
| would cost people zero or close to zero to upgrade .
|
| Otherwise people would have wait for the prices to drop a
| lot more than they are right now.
| fooker wrote:
| These are EVs which cost ~3-5x the price of the average
| car though.
| [deleted]
| Tagbert wrote:
| 2023 Chevy Bolt EV with 259 mile range has a starting
| price of $25,600
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| 259 miles is also less than 350+ miles
| Retric wrote:
| Average new car in the US costs more than 40k so it's not
| a 3x price premium.
|
| They aren't cheap but that's about what car companies are
| selling not the technology. People view 350 mile ranges
| as a luxury feature but they don't require that much
| extra battery over a 250 mile range.
| lvass wrote:
| Average new car in brazil is 12~15k and that includes a
| ton of taxes, EVs are often 6~10x price premium as
| they're also heavily taxed. They're also used 30+ years
| which would mean like 6 battery replacements, the
| batteries alone would likely cost more than a whole car
| plus it's lifetime fuel in Brazil unless it's a heavily
| used vehicle like a shift-rented uber.
|
| I suspect the battery manufacturing would also be far
| worse than the lifetime of alcohol for the environment,
| but that depends a lot on how each is made.
| Retric wrote:
| Batteries are lasting much longer as the pack sizes
| increase and chemistry improves. Unless you're planning
| on driving 1 million miles you shouldn't need to replace
| the battery on a long range EV.
|
| Meanwhile paying for 30 years of gas adds up, especially
| when fuel economy decreases with age.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| > Meanwhile paying for 30 years of gas adds up,
|
| I've seen this point come up a lot.
|
| The energy used to recharge batteries right now is being
| mostly produced using traditional means of power
| production, mostly fossil.
|
| So in the end we are only shifting costs, not really
| saving.
|
| Another important point not being discussed is that used
| vehicles are dirty cheap (easily under 1k) and can still
| run with very little engine maintenance with the only
| cost being fuel.
|
| With the energy crisis we are living, I'm not sure EV are
| going to cost so much less than ICE to operate.
|
| If you need to change tires or get into an accident and
| the car needs repairs, it doesn't matter if it's an EV or
| an ICE,
|
| You still have to pay for it and probably the EV cannot
| be repaired by a gas station mechanic.
|
| The same gas station worker might lose business due to
| EVs becoming more popular and that's not gonna be cheap
| economically and socially.
|
| Before it's gonna be cheaper, we need to completely
| overhaul the way transport economics works.
|
| I don't have the slightest idea of how long it is gonna
| take, but it's not gonna be tomorrow.
| Retric wrote:
| Environmentally a great deal of CO2 comes from to
| extracting crude oil, transport, refine, and distribute
| gasoline. Roughly 1kg of CO2 per gallon of gas is
| released just in the refining process while 8.9kg comes
| from actually burning the fuel.
|
| Next out of global electricity production 16% is hydro,
| 10.3% nuclear, 5.3% is wind, and solar is 2.5%. And wind
| and solar numbers are rapidly trending upwards. The 23%
| from Natural gas is also vastly cleaner both from
| extremely efficient turbines and because of inherent
| advantages to the fuel.
|
| It's only the 36.7% that from coal where the numbers come
| close while still slightly favoring EV's per mile.
| lvass wrote:
| >It's only the 36.7% that from coal where the numbers
| come close
|
| The problem is, when you add that demand to your power
| grid, is that increasing the supply of hydro, nuclear,
| wind, or solar? In practice, the extra demand from EVs
| only increases the correlated amount of coal used as that
| is where the excess of potential electricity generation
| is, for now.
| Retric wrote:
| I don't know about other countries but for US and China
| coal is significantly underrepresented in new power plant
| construction relative to it's share of total production.
|
| The US hasn't built a large coal plant recently and none
| are currently planned.
| https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=30812
|
| Looking at the number being decommissioned over the next
| few years it doesn't seem like EV transition is really
| changing anything.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coal-
| fired_power_stati...
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| Completely agree on all the points, we burn oil in ICE
| engines simply because it's ready for direct use, but
| what if we switched to natural gas fueled cars?
|
| ICE engines can easily be adapted to use it, the
| infrastructure for gas pumps is already in place, I do
| not own a car but when I need one I use my mother's car
| that runs on methane gas.
|
| Of course EV fueled by 100% green energy is the future we
| all hope for, but I wouldn't discard the economic
| advantage, especially in less developed countries, of
| cheap cars that run on greener fuel.
|
| There are also many countries like China or Germany that
| are heavily reliant on coal for energy production right
| now, because it makes it easier to adapt the output to
| the demand, maybe a more mixed approach instead of "EV or
| die" could lead to a faster transition curve toward less
| CO2 intensive vehicles and one that is economically more
| feasible on a global scale.
|
| I also doubt Brazil will be full of Tesla anytime soon.
| greenthrow wrote:
| That is not remotely true and hasn't been true for about
| a decade.
| lvxferre wrote:
| For those wondering: vinasse is the crap left after you distil
| the fermented mass, to retrieve the alcohol. It should not be an
| issue, because as mentioned by the text it's a good fertiliser;
| however law enforcement in most of the Americas does not fucking
| work, and Brazil is a prime example of that - if it's cheaper to
| dump it into the river than to store and resell it then producers
| will do it, laws be damned.
|
| Another issue (not mentioned by the text) is that long-term
| sugarcane farming desertifies the environment where it's grown.
| Yeah - it is not sustainable in the long run.
| Groxx wrote:
| I'm always kinda stunned by how destructive people can be when
| money is involved.
|
| I'm not _surprised_ , I completely expect it and do what I can
| to mitigate it. But it's still shocking. What kind of sociopath
| builds something and decides "I'll throw this leftover crap
| where others drink" for _decades_? And why do they have so much
| power, so frequently?
| routerl wrote:
| Here's another example that I ran into in Brazil, and ended up
| making and selling a business out of.
|
| Whey, the by-product of dairy manufacturing, is most cheaply
| disposed of by feeding to pigs. The excess the pigs can't eat
| is supposed to be safely disposed of, but this is often deemed
| too costly, and it ends up in the river. A bribe to the right
| official will be cheaper anyway.
|
| So I started to buy the stuff, for pennies per decalitre.
| Dairies didn't have to bribe officials anymore, and the river
| is spared. My refrigerated truck then brought this enormous
| amount of whey to my nanofiltration pump (setup with the help
| of a local chemical engineer), where we split it into Whey
| Protein Isolate, which is the powder bodybuilders drink. I then
| became a local supplier for the (at the time) only South
| American company that produced and marketed protein powders in
| Brazil, sold my share of the business, and came home a slightly
| wealthier man.
|
| Every stage of this was a nightmare. The uses of whey have been
| well documented in the literature since the 1920's, and the
| equipment is cheap. In engineering terms, it's a completely
| solved problem. But the bureaucracy....
| em-bee wrote:
| in austria whey is flavored with fruit and sold as a soft
| drink
| chitowneats wrote:
| Is it any good? The taste?
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| Can you share a story about the bureaucracy and how you'd
| improve it?
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(page generated 2022-07-30 23:01 UTC)