[HN Gopher] Toyota RAV4 Prime hybrid SUV now selling for 48% ove...
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Toyota RAV4 Prime hybrid SUV now selling for 48% over MSRP
Author : dan-jackson
Score : 76 points
Date : 2022-07-26 18:46 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (driverbase.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (driverbase.com)
| dan-jackson wrote:
| https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota...
| daenz wrote:
| I bought my (used) Toyota Corolla in early 2021...fortunately
| right before the used car prices hit an upwards inflection[0].
| Every time I've checked the KBB value, it has increased.
|
| One year ago today, it the trade in value is 12% more than I
| purchased it. Today, it is 36% more. This is wild.
|
| 0. https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/price-trends/
| systemvoltage wrote:
| Is the used car market equally bad?
| angryasian wrote:
| yes, used car inventory is selling just as fast because there
| are no new vehicles
| mechagodzilla wrote:
| We tried to buy one in fall of 2020, and we weren't able to get
| one until June of 2021, although we did actual buy it for MSRP
| (and after state and federal incentives, I think it was ~$34k
| total). It replaced a 2005 Honda CRV, and it's been great so far.
| We pretty much only buy gas on road trips (in hybrid mode it gets
| ~40 MPG), the car has crazy acceleration and is very fun to
| drive, and the final price was great. We had also considered a
| Model Y, which we would have wound up paying at least $30k more
| for - at its MSRP, especially with incentives, the value was
| great.
| dmtroyer wrote:
| sounds like you might be able to upgrade to a Model Y for not
| much.
| maerF0x0 wrote:
| If it's selling for so much does that mean Toyota (the company)
| is missing out on a ton of margin that the dealerships are
| making?
| nradov wrote:
| In theory, yes. But Toyota is positioned as a mainstream value
| brand. They don't want to damage their brand image in the
| marketplace by raising MSRP just because they temporarily can't
| manufacture enough to meet demand.
| somerandomqaguy wrote:
| For that money the Lexus NX 450h+ is probably viable. And would
| probably hold a higher resale due to the Lexus badge.
| jancsika wrote:
| Not sure about the RAV4, but I strongly doubt people are
| _actually_ paying some of the markups on the Prius Prime that I
| 've seen.
|
| Here's a real email exchange I had about a Prius Prime LE:
|
| Dealer: We have one in stock!
|
| Me: What's the price on it?
|
| Dealer: The MSRP is 30119 plus 20k, tags, and taxes.
|
| Me: Plus 20k?
|
| Dealer: Yes that is the mark up on our Prius Prime. It can be
| negotiable, but have to be in person.
|
| **
|
| That looks to me like a number pulled out of their ass as an ad-
| hoc out-of-state spam filter. It worked. But I see no evidence
| that it has shit to do with the actual price that a human being
| would pay to buy a new car.
|
| HN is a big place-- anybody pay 15-20K over MSRP for a Prius
| Prime in the past 6 months? I strongly suspect dealers are having
| fun touting their spam filter numbers as if that's some kind of
| real car price...
| googlryas wrote:
| Yup, I went to buy one last year, I think the advertised price
| was $40k, but the dealership wanted to charge me a $15k
| "dealership fee" for the pleasure of doing business with them. I
| went for a Tesla Model Y instead, and I'm very happy with it.
| flurie wrote:
| This price tracker[1] shows that the price of the Model Y has
| increased about 9-12k depending on trim over the past year. Are
| you happy because that's less than 15k?
|
| [1]
| https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1F5IQOynIawoXiJPVarLD...
| ParksNet wrote:
| Better that excess demand is captured by the manufacturer,
| which can be reinvested into manufacturing, than the dealer.
|
| I far prefer the transparent pricing of Tesla, and its now
| the only manufacturer I'd consider buying from in the USA.
| jnwatson wrote:
| Right now, pricing is the most transparent it has ever been
| among traditional dealers. For most new cars, you pay MSRP.
| ribosometronome wrote:
| >I far prefer the transparent pricing of Tesla
|
| An interesting comment considering this is above a story of
| Tesla cutting functionality via a software update for a
| customer years after purchase and demanding thousands to
| undo it. That sort of stuff, their lackluster QC and the
| erratic behavior of the CEO has me pretty skeptical of them
| as a company.
| pkaye wrote:
| Tesla has its issues but the dealers barely give any
| value to the customer.
| BobLaw wrote:
| If you read the story or the comments the car had a 60kwh
| battery replaced under warranty but only a 90kwh was
| available. Procedure was to set the battery firmware to
| 60 kwh but for whatever reason that didn't happen. The
| car was then sold twice until someone found the
| discrepancy and fixed it. Nobody received anything less
| than they paid for from Tesla.
|
| The current owner may have been deceived by one of the
| previous sellers but that's not something your can really
| blame on Tesla
| alasdair_ wrote:
| If it shows up in Tesla's software as a 90 kwh battery
| then it is absolutely something you can blame on Tesla.
| BobLaw wrote:
| What kind of insane argument is that?
|
| If you order a Toyota Camry and the transporter drops off
| a Ferrari at your door screaming WELL IT SAYS FERRARI ON
| RIGHT THERE ON THE CAR isn't in any way a valid argument.
|
| They're just going to tell you that's nice but so what
| that's not where the discrepancy is in the first place.
| The order says Toyota, the invoice say Toyota, the
| transport slip says Toyota, etc, etc.
| googlryas wrote:
| Tesla is up front about the cost of the vehicle, save for the
| default display being "with fuel savings", but in any case
| the true cost is a click away.
|
| Versus the dealership(Larry h Miller) advertising the car for
| $40k on their site, and not telling you about the $15k fee
| until you're in their office.
| jjcm wrote:
| As someone who did the exact same thing last year, we paid
| $55,290 for our Model Y. Dealers were quoting us 48k for the
| RAV4 hybrid, with a 12 month wait list.
|
| It was worth it for us to pay 7k for the upgrade to the
| Tesla, and to get something much faster.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > but the dealership wanted to charge me a $15k "dealership
| fee"
|
| Do your scare quotes mean you think it's unreasonable? It's
| supply and demand, isn't it?
| tmh88j wrote:
| >Do your scare quotes mean you think it's unreasonable? It's
| supply and demand, isn't it?
|
| No, it's not reasonable when you're forced to go through a
| middleman who adds little to no value to the transaction and
| wants to take a massive cut. Ford is legitimately worried
| about dealership greed jeopardizing the success of the F-150
| Lightning[1] and EV's in general, so they're moving towards
| direct to customer online sales for their EV's[2]. They've
| arguably been burned by greedy dealerships in the past with
| the Focus RS[3].
|
| [1] https://www.thestreet.com/lifestyle/cars/ford-warns-
| dealers-...
|
| [2] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/06/ford-wants-to-sell-
| evs-...
|
| [3] https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/07/barks-bites-
| focus-...
| paxys wrote:
| If it was actually just supply and demand then these
| dealerships wouldn't exist at all.
| pipeline_peak wrote:
| Thank you for introducing me to the term scare quotes aka
| shudder quotes, quibble quotes, and my personal favorite
| sneer quotes.
|
| People here love passive aggression.
| givemeethekeys wrote:
| To me, calling it a "dealership fee" implies I'm getting
| something special from the dealership in addition to buying
| the car from them.
| jedberg wrote:
| You are getting something special -- the fact that they
| have one on hand. :)
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| You are getting something special: A guaranteed financial
| loss.
|
| $20k buys a lot of gas, and you get to finance it too.
| koolba wrote:
| Of course there's a $15K markup. Something has to pay for
| that crappy cup of Flavia coffee you get in the waiting
| room.
| arijun wrote:
| It's in scare quotes because it's not a fee, it's just a way
| of raising the price.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > it's just a way of raising the price
|
| All fees are a way of raising a price.
| [deleted]
| NoSorryCannot wrote:
| No, I don't think they are. For example, a credit card
| processing fee doesn't raise the price of a gallon of
| gasoline.
|
| There is supposed to be a difference between markup and a
| fee. We don't have to hash out what exactly the
| difference is, just observe that there is a difference.
|
| It's a common grift to hide part of the price in
| unadvertised "fees" so that consumers will have a harder
| time comparing options but it is just that, a grift. It's
| deception.
| olyjohn wrote:
| Some fees recoup costs. Some are explicitly for the
| purpose of getting more money from the buyer without
| putting it in the list price, and aren't a cost to the
| dealer at all.
| alldayeveryday wrote:
| 15k dealership fee is unreasonable.
| dawnerd wrote:
| Don't forget that they'll advertise it as "15k off!" on
| their website but really they're just taking off some other
| market adjustment. It's ridiculous. Dealers cant go away
| soon enough.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Presumably it's reasonable because it's supported by market
| conditions?
| oneoff786 wrote:
| Market conditions by an enforced middle man
| chrisseaton wrote:
| The market conditions are set by the number of people
| trying to buy the cars and how much they're willing to
| pay.
|
| The dealership meets the market price, not sets it. If
| their fee was unreasonable people would buy other cars
| until the dealer dropped their prices to something
| reasonable.
| scottyah wrote:
| People don't want to buy other cars just because the
| dealers are colluding and raising the prices despite
| adding no value. When they do decide to avoid a car just
| because of the leeching dealerships, it hurts the
| manufacturer too
| oneoff786 wrote:
| If you're an emotionless rationalist sure
| gweinberg wrote:
| Market conditions explain the higher price, but why does
| the extra money go to the dealership rather than the
| manufacturer? I think something other than the market is
| at work here.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > why does the extra money go to the dealership rather
| than the manufacturer?
|
| Because my understanding is they own the cars, once
| they're delivered from the manufacturer. They own the
| asset.
| charcircuit wrote:
| >but why does the extra money go to the dealership rather
| than the manufacturer?
|
| Because the manaufacturer decided to not raise the price.
| This means the next person now has the ability to raise
| the price.
| JakeAl wrote:
| People are also buying up all the inventory of available
| cars and flipping them at CarMax for a profit. Look on
| CarMax and you see loads of brand new cars with 3-6K
| markup. That's who the dealerships are competing with.
| BobLaw wrote:
| Something being "supported by market conditions" is not a
| valid test for reasonableness. During disasters for
| example, all manner of unethical practices can be
| "supported by market conditions". Yet we enact laws
| against those things for good reason.
|
| You also seem to forget the fact that much of those
| market conditions are a result of anti-competitive and
| anti-consumer laws guaranteeing their the status a middle
| men by force.
|
| If for example consumers were able to buy directly from
| manufacturers but chose to pay more at a dealership
| because they thought the extra cost was worth some
| surplus value provided then you might have a point.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| You seem very intent on defending this sort of behavior.
| I wonder why?
|
| In my not so humble opinion, while the used market can do
| what it may, MSRP is MSRP. This goes for GPUs as much as
| it goes for cars. I understand shortages. I am ok with
| waiting lists. I do not appreciate profiteering. Any
| dealership that tried to stick me with such a markup not
| only would blow the sale, but would not get my business
| in the future.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > I wonder why?
|
| I guess I don't get why people think they should be
| immune from paying a market price.
|
| When you negotiate salary do you go for the most you can
| negotiate? Or do you accept minimum wage because someone
| somewhere suggested it to you? Why do you think any other
| transaction should be different? It's a brand new luxury
| SUV, it's not baby milk.
|
| > MSRP is MSRP
|
| Guess what... the MSRP includes _profit_ (gasp!). As much
| profit as they thought they could get away with when it
| was set.
|
| > Any dealership that tried to stick me with such a
| markup not only would blow the sale, but would not get my
| business in the future.
|
| Ok so great this already limits how much they can charge.
| I guess someone else somewhere is willing the pay the
| price though, or they wouldn't charge it.
|
| I think your logic is basically 'I don't want to pay that
| much'. Ok well they don't want to sell it for less, and
| it's their property. You'll have to go elsewhere. Sounds
| like you're happy with that so what's the problem?
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > In my not so humble opinion, while the used market can
| do what it may, MSRP is MSRP.
|
| The S stands for "suggested", and that suggestion is
| based on an inherently fallible prediction of future
| market conditions.
|
| > I do not appreciate profiteering.
|
| Capitalism is profiteering. The MSRP is profiteering. The
| only difference is _who_ is profiteering, and _when_.
| googlryas wrote:
| It's not _just_ supply and demand, because the manufacturers
| have been pissed at the dealership markups, because it makes
| them look bad. And the manufacturers can 't do anything about
| it because of state enforced middlemen in the car sale
| process.
|
| And it's not scare quotes, I'm just using the phrase that
| they used, which I had never heard of before.
|
| And, it was unreasonable, because of some details which I did
| not include, which is that the specific vehicle was listed as
| for sale on their website for $40k, but only when I called
| did they say that it was actually only for sale for $55k.
| That's a bait and switch.
| ghaff wrote:
| Well there are destination charges/dealer prep/paperwork
| etc. I recently had to buy a car. And by all indications
| low-mileage used are hot tickets right now. Had to pay
| something like $500 in dealership charges which is more
| than I've paid in the past I'm pretty sure but not highway
| robbery.
|
| Didn't even try to negotiate the sticker price but, to my
| surprise, was about to get the price for some "factory
| installed options" (which included a first aid kit!) added
| to my trade-in. So the used car situation cuts both ways.
|
| I was probably pretty lucky to get the car in "only" six
| weeks.
|
| But didn't even try to get a hybrid or electric.
| PenguinCoder wrote:
| $500 is a far cry from $15,000. It's still insane for
| what amounts to some paperwork and processing fees
| though.
| ghaff wrote:
| Sure. One is clearly padding. The other is we're going to
| add a massive surcharge and if you don't pay it someone
| else will. I actually consider myself lucky getting a
| semi-reasonable deal in a not too extended timeframe on
| something I'm happy with in a supply-constrained
| environment.
| frumper wrote:
| the 15k markups are on top of the normal dealer fees like
| destination charges.
| paxys wrote:
| If you want a Model Y immediately you will have to pay _a lot_
| more than a $15k premium. The earliest official delivery date
| for one is April 2023, and that 's just for the premium models.
| frumper wrote:
| Model Y performance is Aug-Oct delivery.
| paxys wrote:
| It is also $70K. Not exactly a reasonable comparison to a
| Toyota RAV4.
| frumper wrote:
| The Rav4 prime was 57k after all the fees. My Model Y was
| 61k
|
| Edit: Those numbers were numbers I experienced buying a
| year ago. Article numbers put some Rav4's more than
| current Model Y performance price.
| brianwawok wrote:
| In the current gas price world, whats the 10 year TCO
| comparison? Might not be as far off as you think..
| frumper wrote:
| It would greatly depend on your driving habits. I'm
| averaging 2k miles a month. My electricity cost averages
| around 4 cents/mile(14c/kWh). At my current gas
| prices($5.75) I'd need to get 142mpg to get 4 cents/mile.
| The rav4 is complicated because it's both, but I'd get
| about 40% of my day on electric and 60% on gas. That
| means 4c/mile for the EV(even granting it's as efficient
| as the Tesla which epa numbers aren't as good) and
| 36mpg(epa Highway rav4 prime) on the Highway for 60% of
| my day. 36mpg would be about 16c/mile. So in an average
| day about 100 miles, it'd be 40 * .04 + 60 * .16 =
| 13.5c/mile averages over a day. So 24000miles/yr
| multiples by .04 or 0.135 and it's $960 vs $3240. That
| points to in excess of $20k in savings over 10 years. If
| someone goes 40 miles or less a day these numbers favor a
| prime quite a bit more.
| [deleted]
| sparkbII wrote:
| upupandup wrote:
| In any supply & demand market, pay close attention to what's
| happening at the luxury segment. Across the board, the bubble is
| imploding in watches, exotic cars. Soon they won't have a supply
| chain problem but the incoming tsunami of boomers drastically
| reducing their consumption as they cannot rely on pensions and
| social security going forward.
|
| I am also noticing the same pattern in luxury real estate. I see
| listings routinely sell below the asking price or not selling at
| all. There is a cash crunch coming and the rich are urgently
| putting up their items for sale.
| paxys wrote:
| I bought an SUV at MSRP in August 2021 and, after a year of use,
| can sell it today to Carvana/Carmax/Vroom for at least $5-10K
| more than what I paid for it, and probably even more if I
| negotiate a private sale. The car market right now is bonkers.
| paulirwin wrote:
| I tried to buy one of these this month. The dealership I went to
| has a policy of not selling over MSRP, which I appreciate. As a
| result, they are no longer even taking names for the RAV4 Prime
| waiting list because they estimate the wait is 2-3 years.
| kube-system wrote:
| I tried to buy one last year. The dealer I went to said they
| weren't being allocated any and that I'd have to go to another
| dealer. The look on their face was basically "haha good luck"
| frumper wrote:
| I found one last year. It was 7k dealer markup, plus another 3k
| for various accessories, plus another 2k for an A/C super
| coolant. They also came in extremely low on a trade-in. I ended
| up walking and ordering a Model Y. It felt slimy to pay over
| MSRP. Similar experiences at several ford dealers over mach-e
| prices.
| thinkling wrote:
| At Toyota dealers you pay over MSRP, at Tesla they just
| repeatedly raise the MSRP...
| dmtroyer wrote:
| at least you have some idea what you're dealing with
| without having to haggle with a salesperson.
| frumper wrote:
| Tesla honors the price you order your Model Y at. Mine took
| about 3 months to get and the price did go up once during
| that time. I paid the original price.
|
| Fun surprise ordering a Mach-E/F-150 Lightning and the
| dealer charges the market adjustment on your custom ordered
| car. No where is that fee disclosed until you go down to
| the dealership to pick it up.
| pixl97 wrote:
| Eh, that doesn't even seem legal? Unless it's in a
| contract somewhere in very very small text.
| frumper wrote:
| You order it from Ford, buy it from the dealer. Ford
| shows you the MSRP. Dealer gets to charge you whatever
| they want. It doesn't feel legal. Ford has told dealers
| they'll be punished if they do it. Dealers are still
| doing it.
|
| According to the National Automobile Dealers Association,
| dealers average about 2k in profit on a new car. Many are
| adding market adjustments of 5-20k. They're multiplying
| the profit they make each sale. It feels very wrong, but
| Ford really can't do too much especially if they're all
| doing it in an area.
|
| https://www.onlineautodealered.com/career-central/how-
| much-d...
| timothyb89 wrote:
| Most dealers don't do this, though admittedly as another
| commenter mentioned, this isn't stopping the all the less
| scrupulous dealers.
|
| I paid MSRP for a Mach E I ordered online with relatively
| little fanfare, albeit with a ~10 month wait and a model
| year bump (for which Ford gave me a discount off the
| slightly higher MSRP).
| kingrazor wrote:
| I was hoping to buy a new car this year but frankly, there's
| nothing wrong with my 2012 Nissan Altima right now. I'm going to
| wait and hope that this craziness subsides soon.
| gnicholas wrote:
| Yep, hanging in with our 2014 Ford CMAX PHEV and 2007 Volvo
| XC70 for now. I'd love to have a new car, but it just doesn't
| make sense given current pricing and the fact that we don't
| actually drive that much.
|
| Instead of paying a huge premium on a new car, I bought a zippy
| electric scooter. Lots of fun, and faster than driving when
| traffic is heavy.
| newsclues wrote:
| If you can wait tell a dealer to put you on a list for
| allocation at the retail price.
| highwaylights wrote:
| Likewise. Toyota Auris 2011 owner here. Does what I need it to
| do.
|
| Not even sure what I'd replace it with, but there's nothing I'm
| looking at that comes close to justifying it's cost versus just
| keeping this running.
| Tade0 wrote:
| Also Auris here, but somewhat younger. The car is boring, but
| that's because _it 's supposed to be_.
|
| My previous Auris got stolen so I shopped around for a while,
| but couldn't get the proper price/getting out of my way ratio
| out of anything else.
| LegitShady wrote:
| I agree - it's definitely not the right time to be getting a
| new car if you can help it. I said to myself I'd drive this
| car for at least 10 years...what's another year or two to let
| prices come back to earth.
| pojzon wrote:
| In few years when petrol and disel cars get banned in 1st
| world countries -> gonna buy my dream car for peanuts.
|
| My country does not care about the climate (Poland).
|
| Thats just reality. One man's trash is anothers man's
| treasure.
| danuker wrote:
| Yaris 2007. The only things we needed to change on it in 5
| years were filters, tyres, brake pads (previous owner braked
| a lot), a corroded brake line (previous owner kept it
| outside), and a stolen windshield wiper (including arm), for
| which we used one from a defunct Citroen C3 (had to use a saw
| to make it fit).
|
| The aluminum engine is great for fuel efficiency, and the
| chain transmission instead of belt is convenient.
| loeg wrote:
| Wild. Reminds me of the lines for 2nd gen Toyota Priuses in the
| early 2000s, and also the early Highlander hybrids. What's so
| great about the RAV4? Subaru Outbacks are basically SUV sized
| these days, with arguably superior AWD to the RAV4. That's what I
| ended up with when I was buying a few years ago. It's not hybrid,
| but $30-50k buys a lot of gas, and we don't do many miles. If you
| did a bunch of miles (commuting?), I'd think you'd want something
| more aerodynamic.
| francisofascii wrote:
| > What's so great about the RAV4?
|
| It has 42 miles of electric range. Prius Prime only has 25. So
| you can have an SUV, have electric, and have a gas engine for
| long trips.
| dmtroyer wrote:
| comparing an outback to a rav4 hybrid or plug-in hybrid is not
| a very direct comparison. although I agree the subaru awd is
| superior, I am paying a lot more to keep my high mileage
| forester on the road than i would a Toyota.
| elforce002 wrote:
| Look, greed knows no bounds. My country's government gave car
| importers tax exemptions to bring electric and hybrid cars and
| what do you think happened after that? They were selling them
| almost 100% over market value.
|
| What happened after that? The market didn't even bother asking
| anything about them and with electric bills ramping up, the
| opportunity of somewhat have a seizable market for electric cars
| was lost.
|
| Whoever think we'll phase out regular cars by 2035 is either
| lying, being naive or getting something out of it.
| quartz wrote:
| Unrelated to price it's great to see PHEVs getting better and
| better on larger cars and drawing demand.
|
| I've got a first-gen Volvo XC90 T8 PHEV which only gets like
| 17miles (ok more like 14 if the heat or A/C is on which is
| basically always) on electric but it makes a huge difference in
| overall mpg since I use the ICE on the highway and switch to
| electric in-town.
|
| My one concern is that there's a huge question mark about what
| happens when the battery degrades over time. I'm happy to replace
| it when that happens but will be really bummed if my only option
| at that point is to put the same lower-capacity battery in.
| olyjohn wrote:
| Small battery like that won't be terrible to replace. I know
| for the 1st gen Insight, you can pick up those batteries for
| about $2000-2500. And usually when the car has a dead battery,
| the price of them is around... $2000-2500 cheaper than one with
| a good battery. Lots of people just drive them with bad
| batteries and still end up getting over 50mpgs.
| quartz wrote:
| I sure hope so. MSRP on the battery is over $10k right now
| from Volvo[1] although poking around some dealers have them
| as low as $8k. Maybe there will be aftermarket options in the
| future?
|
| Sort of silly to hope for but if I'm lucky the battery will
| prematurely degrade within the 8-year hybrid warranty and
| they'll replace it for free.
|
| [1] https://usparts.volvocars.com/p/Volvo_2017_XC90-20l-4-cyl
| ind...
| smilekzs wrote:
| Supply and demand, yadda yadda, sure.
|
| I can accept that the observed behavior on my end is "pay up or
| wait".
|
| What I cannot accept is that the dealerships are pocketing all
| the markups.
| sethammons wrote:
| > What I cannot accept is that the dealerships are pocketing
| all the markups
|
| Why?
| BobLaw wrote:
| In many states car dealers are either the single largest or
| one of the largest groups that donates to state and local
| politicians. They use those markups to make massive donations
| to politicians ensuring there are middle men laws on the
| books guaranteeing they can continue to charge more markups
| in the future.
|
| Many people would rather their money go to the people
| actually designing and building the product their buying,
| ideally maximizing the value of their purchase.
|
| From many consumers perspective they're just paying extra for
| someone to rip them off in order to be rip them off again
| later.
|
| If dealership provided an genuine value the should be able to
| charge what they charge in fair competitive market
| conditions.
| roody15 wrote:
| The idea of dealerships was to force car companies to
| spread the wealth.
|
| For example if you purchase a car at a local dealer all the
| sales tax goes to the local taxing body (city / sometimes
| county). This generates a huge amount of money for public
| services.
|
| Additionally the employees of the dealerships typically
| live in the same region further spreading the wealth.
|
| Yes buying direct from dealer would be cheaper but
| eliminating dealerships nationwide would have a devastating
| effect on local municipalities.
| BobLaw wrote:
| Uhh no that's not at all correct. The taxes are paid to
| whatever jurisdiction you register your car. If you live
| in Texas and you buy a car in Wyoming the Taxes get paid
| to you local tax accessor. It doesn't matter if you buy
| it from a dealership or a manufacturer.
|
| Manufacturers also have employees in the regions they
| sell because they need staff for their delivery and
| service centers at minimum.
|
| The history of how we got here with dealership laws is
| long and complicated but basically boils down to starting
| with something useful like a verifiable local agent in a
| time when many small car manufacturers were selling
| essentially carts with primitive engines through mail
| order catalogs. Then slowly gaining political and
| economic power and protecting that power through local
| and state laws limiting competition and legally enforced
| monopolies. In short, corruption.
|
| You'll notice many influential and wealthy lawmakers in
| state governments own dealerships. Unsurprisingly they're
| near uniformly anti-taxes and 'big government' so the
| "but dealership pay taxes" argument rarely holds sway as
| they're constantly fighting against it.
|
| https://pressbooks.ulib.csuohio.edu/evolution-of-local-
| deale...
| niij wrote:
| Sales (or use) tax, at least in the U.S., goes to the
| jurisdiction you reside in. The location you bought it
| from is irrelevant.
| eftychis wrote:
| Because they are an oligopoly/they are forced on the economy.
| scottyah wrote:
| I can't speak for the quoted, but the dealerships are not
| creating the value that makes the cars desirable. They simply
| are in the right place at the right time and none of the
| extra money they get is going to improve the car in the
| future.
| axlee wrote:
| like a real estate agent?
| baumandm wrote:
| You aren't required to use a real estate agent though (at
| least in my jurisdiction).
| deelowe wrote:
| Because it's enforced via regulatory capture. Ford, as an
| example, has had a hell of a time fighting with it's own
| dealer networks over behaviors they do not condone. It would
| be different if Ford could sell direct to consumer.
| BobLaw wrote:
| I think they should be able to mark stuff up all they want.
| They just shouldn't be able to have laws enabling their status
| as forced middle men. If a consumer wants to pay extra through
| a dealership because they value something they provide so be
| it. If a consumer doesn't want any bullshit though they should
| be able to easily bypass them and go to the manufacturer
| directly.
| jedberg wrote:
| Makes sense. That car is the perfect car for my family. Electric
| range is enough to do most of our daily errands, taking the kids
| to classes, etc. But the gas range is enough to take family road
| trips.
|
| And in my case, it also happens to have 100% support from
| Openpilot, which is a requirement for me.
| syntaxing wrote:
| I'm honestly not sure how OpenPilot is gonna stay in business
| on the long run. As others has mentioned, any of the new Toyota
| cars are eventually going to have encrypted ECUs. Also, I paid
| like $1K for Ford's lane centering and it has been amazing on
| highways. I can't imagine spending $3K for a comma 3 anymore.
| selectodude wrote:
| "Specific new Toyota models are shipping with a new message
| authentication method that openpilot does not yet support. So
| far, this list includes: Toyota RAV4 Prime 2021+"
|
| Just a heads up.
| jedberg wrote:
| Oh thanks! I hadn't checked in a while. I'm not getting a new
| car anytime soon anyway so hopefully they solve it before I
| am ready!
| syntaxing wrote:
| I mentioned it above but I doubt it, it's been an
| outstanding issue for over 2 years. It's really difficult
| to circumvent the encrypted ECUs
| koksik202 wrote:
| The PHEV in Ireland was EUR52k when it released in Jan 2022, I
| ordered it 5 months in advance seems like this model was way
| cheaper in US and now reaches same price as in Europe?
| ricardobeat wrote:
| You might want to check the news - the euro and dollar are at
| parity now. One of these has sold for $96k, it's dealerships
| taking advantage of demand.
| jacv wrote:
| Probably a combo of things:
|
| 1) Prices in the US don't include tax.
|
| 2) Ireland is also an expensive place to purchase a car because
| of VRT. RAV4 PHEV is EUR47k in Germany for example.
|
| 3) Lastly, could be some spec differences between the cars that
| account for a difference, as in my experience, cars in Ireland
| aren't always the same specs/trim as other areas (but I could
| be wrong about Toyota, I don't know).
| subpixel wrote:
| I bought one last Fall for sticker price and as the commute to my
| daughters school is 50 miles rt we fill the tank once a month or
| so.
|
| Basically a great gateway drug to fully electric, which is what I
| want when I can get an F150 which is not taking orders atm.
| ricardobeat wrote:
| Holy crap, school is 25 miles out?
| subpixel wrote:
| 27 actually, but only through kindergarten, bc Montessori.
| First grade will be 8 miles.
| hedora wrote:
| The pricing on the RAV4 is nuts. For that commute, you could
| sell it and buy a used low-range EV, like a 2018 BMW i3:
|
| https://driverbase.com/research/vehicles/bmw/i3/2018
|
| and end up with ~$42K in pocket.
|
| (It is particularly inexpensive because they significantly
| improved the range in 2019. However, the 2018 would easily do
| your commute.)
|
| We ended up buying one in lieu of trading in an ICE pickup
| truck for a backordered electric F150.
|
| To me, the crazy thing is that we could apparently sell you the
| used i3 we bought earlier this year for a 36% profit, and you
| could end up with a 60% discount on the i3 (vs. pre-Ukraine
| prices) by switching to it from the RAV4!
| [deleted]
| subpixel wrote:
| All of this must be very geo-specific. Driverbase seems to
| geo by IP and prices around here are about 8k over MSRP, if
| they are even available.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I assume that when anything goes wrong with a BMW, and I
| assume it will relatively quickly, the repair costs will
| quickly close the gap on any initial savings.
| MengerSponge wrote:
| There's a lot less to go wrong in an all-electric vehicle.
| Not saying you can't have issues with fans or the seat-
| heaters ( _ahem_ ), but you're not looking at an engine
| rebuild or even oil changes down the line
| dmtroyer wrote:
| you should probably at least consider selling it according to
| these numbers.
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| > the commute to my daughters school is 50 miles rt
|
| That means it takes an hour to drive there and back?? Twice a
| day?!
| jkqwzsoo wrote:
| I imagine they take a round trip, there and back, once a day.
| subpixel wrote:
| This
| avelis wrote:
| The 2014 RAV4 EV MSRP'd at $49800 before government incentives.
| They had 100 mile range, Tesla powertrains, but no DC charging.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV
|
| Crazy to think what PHEVs goes for now.
| AceJohnny2 wrote:
| Funny, when I tried out the range of hybrid Crossover SUVs (like
| the RAV4) in late 2020, I found the RAV4 Prime felt like driving
| a boat. It had a kind of inertia I didn't feel in other cars.
|
| I ended up getting a Ford Escape Hybrid (not plug-in) instead,
| which I really like (then again, I guess it's a different kind of
| product, not being a plug-in hybrid)
| AceJohnny2 wrote:
| Perhaps the RAV4 Prime just defaulted to a more tame "Eco"
| driving mode, whereas the Escape was tuned to behave more
| aggressively by default. I tend to always switch the Escape to
| Eco mode anyhow. Now that I think of it, I'd be curious to
| compare them again with this in mind.
| syntaxing wrote:
| I agree how good the Ford Escape handling is. I have the PHEV
| trim and it reacts so well. I also set my driving mode to Eco
| the moment I drive, easily my biggest gripe about the car is
| that I cannot set the drive mode to default to Eco. I tried the
| RAV4 prime and it definitely has a higher kick. Also the RAV4
| has a higher torque level before the engine kicks on. But I
| find the Sports mode on the Escape to be just like the RAV4
| normal but not sure why I need my car to accelerate that fast.
| dragontamer wrote:
| RAV4 Prime looks good.
|
| I probably should plug its competitors: Hyundai Tucson PHEV and
| Ford Escape PHEV. They're cheaper and roughly the same size. They
| don't have the insane acceleration of the RAV4 prime, but they
| accomplish the goal of going from A-to-B with 40ish miles of all
| electric range + gasoline backup.
|
| If you're willing to sacrifice the acceleration, the Hyundai
| Tucson PHEV should be competitive. Ford Escape PHEV is FWD only
| and also slower, but its the cheapest of all 3 options.
| krn wrote:
| As a side note, from a European perspective, Japanese cars seem
| to be so far behind in terms of technology that the only reason
| to even consider them is their reliability.
|
| For the price of Toyota RAV4 one could get either a 7-seater
| Skoda Kodiaq[1], or a fully electric Skoda Enyaq[2], both of
| which are more practical and more premium inside.
|
| [1] https://www.carwow.co.uk/skoda/kodiaq
|
| [2] https://www.carwow.co.uk/skoda/enyaq
| pjc50 wrote:
| Toyota have been strange holdouts against electric cars for
| some reason; they've previously backed hydrogen which is far
| less practical now.
| thinkling wrote:
| Toyota's argument has been that with a limited battery
| supply, you get more fuel use reduction by building lots and
| lots of hybrids than by building a few electric cars. I'm not
| sure they're wrong. (Of course we do need electric cars to be
| in the mix to get to long term targets.)
| jointpdf wrote:
| Honda even more so--they don't have a single PHEV or EV model
| available (there was the Clarity). Mazda is even worse.
|
| Hyundai, Ford, Chevy, VW, et al seem to have an extensive
| lineup of electrified vehicles. Yet, they still seem very
| hard to come by in this market.
| chimen wrote:
| None of which are hybrids.
| krn wrote:
| Yeah, plug-in hybrids (PHEV) are considered "the past" in
| Europe:
|
| https://electrek.co/2021/09/20/skoda-abandoning-phevs-per-
| ce...
| goethes_kind wrote:
| The simplicity of Japanese cars is or at least was part of
| their design philosophy: simple and reliable. And I really
| appreciate that. I know little about Skoda but branding wise I
| would not put it on par with Toyota.
| krn wrote:
| > I know little about Skoda but branding wise I would not put
| it on par with Toyota.
|
| In many parts of Europe, Skoda is considered "the European
| Toyota". Because it's made by Volkswagen Group and uses the
| engines previously tested by its more premium brands - such
| as Porsche, Audi, and Volkswagen.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| These are asking prices.
|
| Dealers are putting high asking prices into these websites to
| anchor the negotiations at an unreasonable number. Gullible
| customers come in and feel like the dealership is doing them a
| favor by selling for "only" 20% over MSRP.
|
| I really doubt that RAV4 SUVs are selling for 50% over MSRP in
| high numbers. Maybe one or two sales to people for whom money is
| no object who also, for some reason, won't simply buy a more
| luxurious vehicle for the same price. Don't let dealers fool you
| into thinking this is the new market rate, though.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| As long as you people (and I mean that specifically, wealthy
| white collar professionals who want a crossover are THE #1 target
| demographic for this thing) they will keep doing it.
| spicymaki wrote:
| This is so weird. Currently only the wealthy are driving the RAV4
| Prime and they love it! It is like a status symbol. The RAV4 was
| supposed to be an economy vehicle. $72K!!! Nothing makes sense
| anymore.
| syntaxing wrote:
| For those looking for an alternative, I highly recommend the Ford
| Escape PHEV. It's about 12K cheaper with the federal incentives.
| You lose out on some stuff like AWD and one recall, but overall
| the compromises were worth the 12K difference. The car handles
| very well and remote app is free. With the electric range and my
| habits, I would need to get gas every 6 months. I get over 40 mpg
| if I run on gas (in the summer).
| riku_iki wrote:
| > The car handles very well and remote app is free
|
| Do they have option of not remotely controlled car? )
| syntaxing wrote:
| I'm not sure, I think every modern car from what I know has
| cellular capabilities built in regardless of brand. You don't
| have to opt in for the Ford Pass (the remote app) and can
| remote start the vehicle with the key fob (remote start is
| included)
| noodle wrote:
| I've been helping someone shop for a car and the Escape PHEV
| has been on the top of the list of considerations. Agreed its a
| great alternative, but its basically impossible to find as
| well. Most ford dealerships are charging ~20% over MSRP for it
| and there are also wait lists for it. I've never seen one in
| person.
| syntaxing wrote:
| Ahh that's a shame, it looks really nice in person too (I
| prefer it more than the RAV4). I managed to snag one before
| the gas price exploded so I'm sure the demand is so much
| higher now
| [deleted]
| nomel wrote:
| > I get over 40 mpg if I run on gas (in the summer).
|
| I don't think that's a fair number. It seems cost/mile or
| carbon/mile would make more since, since that number assumes
| electricity is free.
| syntaxing wrote:
| This number is only factoring gas as a energy source. The
| combined mpg (what they call it when they calculate electric
| usage too) is easily over 150 mpg which is "cheating". But to
| put it into perspective, my car can run over 400 miles on a
| 11 gallon tank without ever touching an electric outlet.
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