[HN Gopher] Baking bread with the Romans part III - the panis qu...
___________________________________________________________________
Baking bread with the Romans part III - the panis quadratus strikes
back (2018)
Author : YeGoblynQueenne
Score : 71 points
Date : 2022-07-24 13:50 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (tavolamediterranea.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (tavolamediterranea.com)
| colpabar wrote:
| Totally off topic but given the headline I can't not post this
|
| https://youtu.be/HrcbCW4y9Dw
| [deleted]
| lumberjack24 wrote:
| Photos don't load on mobile :/
| bornfreddy wrote:
| Looking at the images of the originals, the indentations do not
| seem as evenly spaced as one would expect if they used the
| "wheel". To me it looks like a simple stick, used 4 times, would
| be more appropriate for the job (and in line with the bread
| name). Just guessing though.
| legitster wrote:
| A lot of the fossilized loaves presented aren't even round -
| some of them don't even have 8 indentations!
|
| I really don't like the wagon wheel theory.
| supernova87a wrote:
| I think I have also inadvertently recreated the "carbonized panis
| quadratus" in my home oven recently.
|
| Side note: pretty paranoid website owner to have disabled all
| text selection/copying functions (or overlaid it with a
| transparent object)...
| deepdriver wrote:
| Like most DRM, it inconveniences good-faith users and doesn't
| stop even casual attempts at theft. Just print the page to a
| PDF and all text is selectable/copyable.
| johnnymorgan wrote:
| I love all history of bread making, I find it super interesting i
| wasn general the discover of foods we take for granted.
|
| Protip: make your own ketchup sometime..hot dang it's easily to
| see why it became ubiquitous..and then cry over how terrible the
| mass produced stuff is ;)
| dbwjxufh7373 wrote:
| cogman10 wrote:
| > make your own ketchup sometime
|
| Any recipe you prefer?
|
| Also, fun fact, tomatoes are a new world plant. So, no ketchup
| in the EU until after trade between America and Europe was
| established.
| stu2b50 wrote:
| Ketchup was actually originally a fish sauce from Asia. Then
| it slowly became a mushroom based sauce in Europe.
|
| Finally, tomato based ketchup became dominant, yes. But the
| lineage of ketchup in Europe (of course, it is even older in
| East and Southeastern Asia) goes way before the Columbian
| exchange,
| HideousKojima wrote:
| Also apparently banana ketchup is common in the Philippines
| Cupertino95014 wrote:
| .. and _much_ more seriously: no red sauce in Italian foods.
| na85 wrote:
| Tomatoes crossed the Atlantic during the Spanish conquest,
| so the Italians had several hundred years to adapt to
| tomatoes.
| atdrummond wrote:
| Ketchup really just means a fruit based sauce, so it long
| preceded the arrival of the tomato.
| IncRnd wrote:
| > Ketchup really just means a fruit based sauce
|
| That's not true. Ketchup is believed to have come
| "ultimately from Chinese via Malay kicap, from Min Nan Xie
| Zhi (ke-chiap, "fish broth"), though precise path is
| unclear - there are related words in various Chinese
| dialects, and it may have entered English directly from
| Chinese. Cognate to Indonesian kecap, ketjap ("soy sauce").
| Various other theories exist - see Ketchup: Etymology for
| extended discussion." [1]
|
| This etymology places the origin of ketchup closer to "fish
| sauce", pickled cabbage with meat, or conceptually even
| yogurt or bread!
|
| > so it long preceded the arrival of the tomato.
|
| Yes, but it has nothing to do with fruits, unless you are
| fermenting them to get rid of bad-bacteria and maybe
| increase shelf-life.
|
| [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ketchup
| technothrasher wrote:
| After reading the further Wikipedia entry on the
| etymology of the term, it feels like it should be
| stressed more strongly that the etymology you quoted is
| not necessarily the strongest contender, but just one of
| a few that may or may not be correct.
| IncRnd wrote:
| Would you be specific as to what etymology you mean? I
| linked the extended discussion above.
|
| The Wiktionary page I linked to, as well as many other
| etymological pages on the web say what I did above. There
| are many things that could be true, but they do not all
| have the same likelihood.
|
| Even NPR [1] and the history channel [2] have pages on
| the etymology of ketchup.
|
| [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/12/02/24
| 8195661...
|
| [2] https://www.history.com/news/ketchup-surprising-
| ancient-hist...
| squeaky-clean wrote:
| The wiktionary link earlier says to visit this for an
| extended discussion which provides a few more possible
| origins.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchup#Etymology
| IncRnd wrote:
| Yes. That wiktionary link and text was posted by me in my
| comment.
|
| My question was to name specifically which etymology on a
| secondary page is more likely than the one listed at the
| main entry and on almost all etymology websites? The
| burden of proof is on the person who wrote, "it feels
| like it should be stressed more strongly that the
| etymology you quoted is not necessarily the strongest
| contender".
| technothrasher wrote:
| I thought ketchup was originally mushroom based.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Ketchup really just means a fruit based sauce
|
| No, it doesn't.
|
| > so it long preceded the arrival of the tomato.
|
| It did, but ketchups before tomato weren't necessarily
| fruit based. The original British version (and thus, the
| first American version, from which the other pre-tomato
| version derived) was _mushroom_ based. Fruit, nut, egg, and
| bivalve-based versions all existed. (And the historical
| origin is in Asian fermented fish and soy sauces.)
| brians wrote:
| Is it Asian? I'd assumed--with no real support whatsoever
| --that it was descended from Roman garum, a fermented
| fish sauce that's a _lot closer_.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| Looking it up again (was relying on memory before), it
| was apparently specifically Indonesian kecaps that
| inspired both the sauce and it's name.
| atwood22 wrote:
| Words mean what the listener understands. Most people
| understand ketchup to mean "tomato ketchup" so the person
| you're replying to is correct.
| OscarCunningham wrote:
| Weird that you said 'the EU' rather than 'Europe'. But since
| you did I'll point out that there are several EU territories
| in America that would have had ketchup to begin with.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-07-24 23:01 UTC)