[HN Gopher] Gitlab - A world leader in remote work
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Gitlab - A world leader in remote work
Author : DougMellon
Score : 107 points
Date : 2022-07-20 18:22 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (about.gitlab.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (about.gitlab.com)
| ddmichael wrote:
| Looking for a free ad, Gitlab?
| alexfromapex wrote:
| My favorite part of their story is how they changed the interview
| process to not be terrible and built a dashboard to quantify it:
| https://about.gitlab.com/blog/2020/03/19/the-trouble-with-te...
| VoidWhisperer wrote:
| Unfortunately the dashboard seems to be very broken now :(
| znpy wrote:
| I think it would be nice to, and probably time for, gitlab to get
| its playbook finalised and in printed form, with an isbn and
| everything.
| tristor wrote:
| I appreciate a lot of what Gitlab has done, but as someone who
| has been permanently remote for nearly a decade, I don't really
| consider them to be a leader in remote work. One of my biggest
| issues with Gitlab is that they pay based on locality, many other
| fully remote companies pay below Bay Area salaries, but they pay
| flat globally, meaning you can be location-independent without a
| pay-cut and it helps to bring in high quality talent from across
| the world. Gitlab instead seems to be focused on maximizing
| revenue per headcount rather than actually allowing their
| employees to enjoy the benefits of remote work.
|
| I spent many years working at companies where I was underpaid
| relative to peers who went to the office, but I got paid the same
| whether I was currently residing in Prague, Santiago, or Kansas
| City, and that was a much fairer trade-off than getting pay-cut
| if you relocate to a lower cost of living area, and I have no
| doubt that the reverse is not true (they don't increase pay
| because you move to a HCOL).
| tomnipotent wrote:
| Locally-adjusted pay is a fluke if revenues are not locally
| constrained (like a coffee shop). It's just another way
| employers try and nickle and dime workers, and it's sad that a
| large class of workers have been brainwashed to support it
| because somehow they're more upset at the other workers making
| more, than the company trying to pull a fast on on them.
|
| "But you would make so much more than your neighbors!". Fuck
| off with that noise. I don't care what my neighbors make, I
| care what the company is earning from my labor and getting my
| fair share.
|
| You also won't see this for senior management. As a VP/C-level,
| I've never had a potential employer put pressure on salary
| during a negotiation because of my location (though it's always
| been domestic). It's never even come up besides relocation
| discussions.
| leeoniya wrote:
| "They're the writers of their own press releases, Morty."
| belter wrote:
| Still paying according to location for the same work?
| deltree7 wrote:
| Incredibly naive to assume that in the knowledge industry, you
| can compare two people's work.
|
| How do you measure this?
| codegeek wrote:
| Isn't that Capitalism 101 ? If employees are happy, company is
| happy, why does it matter ? Why should a company worry about
| pleasing everyone who is not necessarily part of them. If
| someone likes what Gitlab does, applies there and gets the
| salary they want, what's the issue ? If they don't like
| Gitlab's offer because someone else in a HCOL area may get
| more, you are essentially comparing with someone else. Not a
| good idea.
| pizza234 wrote:
| > Isn't that Capitalism 101 ? If employees are happy, company
| is happy, why does it matter ?
|
| I don't blame them for applying "Capitalism 101", but on the
| other hand, Gitlab is selling an ethos, not just a product1.
| Surely, nobody likes to hear "when it's about management,
| we're rainbow and unicorns, but when it comes to the bottom
| line, we're capitalism 101".
|
| I also think that they target talented but (from a career
| perspective) inexperienced engineers (a bit like old Google's
| free lunch and table tennis tables), which I find - at least
| - distasteful. Gitlab cleverly capitalizes on their brand,
| and in addition to the location-based salary optimization,
| they also offer substandard salaries (or at least, they did
| for a significant time; I interviewed with them, and by that
| time, they were paying at least 20% less than comparable
| companies).
|
| 1: amusingly, they're not immune to marketing nonsense; see,
| for example, https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-
| remote/all-remo....
| joshmanders wrote:
| It's because talking about your salary is so widely taboo
| that you may think your rate of $40k salary is good because
| it's comfortable in your area, but most chances are you don't
| realize that your co-worker who has the same skill level and
| workload is getting paid $80k and that's a good way to piss
| off your employees.
|
| Pay for skills not for cost of living. You hire someone for
| what they can bring to the table not how much you can profit
| off them.
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| I have no opinion to express on adjusting pay for area of
| residence, but note that Gitlab's salaries appear to be
| unusually exceptionally transparent, so your story of
| taboos about discussing salary and secrecy of colleague's
| salaries probably does not apply to them.
|
| https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/total-
| rewards/compensation...
| codegeek wrote:
| "You hire someone for what they can bring to the table not
| how much you can profit off them."
|
| Not sure if I agree with this naive view. Yes, you hire
| people and give them what they want in exchange for work
| but at the end of the day, I am absolutely trying to save
| money as a company and increase profits as long as I am
| doing it reasonably.
| webdood90 wrote:
| fascinating how people come to the defense of
| corporations like this.
|
| why? do you feel that someday you'll be in their shoes
| and have the power to dictate salaries?
|
| you are likely a worker like everyone else here. demand
| better.
| rnk wrote:
| I saw a list of companies that paid the same regardless of
| location. There were even a few bay area companies that didn't
| cut your pay when you moved away, I wish I had that handy.
| codegeek wrote:
| Can you name a few who will pay a Senior Software Engineer
| the same salary in Bay Area vs say Bangalore, India ? I am
| curious.
| AmericanChopper wrote:
| If you want to get the same pay for remote work no matter
| where you are, just become a contractor.
| wwarek wrote:
| Just a few months ago this[0] jobs platform for exactly
| that - remote, location-independent salary - was discussed
| on HN [1].
|
| [0] https://remotewide.co/ [1]
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31225138
| codegeek wrote:
| Ok I will bite. I randomly checked one company called
| "MotorK" [0] and I found this line in the job description
| "Work remotely from any of the countries we operate in".
| So thats not work from anywhere in the world. I am sure
| devil is always in the details. I know this is 1 example
| but I doubt a company will hire from anywhere in the
| world and pay the same salaries to you. There always will
| be restrictions.
|
| Ok now I am more curious. I looked at another company
| "Expensify" [1]. They actually want you to ideally
| relocate to one of their office locations :). So again,
| not fully remote anywhere in the world. I think employers
| say it casually but in practice, it is extremely
| difficult.
|
| Why would I pay the same salary to a good developer in
| NYC vs India/Thailand. If that's the case, why would I
| hire from a totally different timezone and not to mention
| add legal, HR and compliance issues.
|
| [0] https://remotewide.co/listings/6IBsLC9CWYb4sO8h8xAT
|
| [1] https://remotewide.co/listings/ncCWVkYCZx0dhK0m5Z8v
| throwmisinfo388 wrote:
| Maybe Fly? Not sure.
|
| https://fly.io/about
| [deleted]
| Vinnl wrote:
| What I don't get is: why would they pay more for someone from
| San Francisco? I'd expect the incentive to be to indeed pay the
| same for the same work, but that pay would be the lowest they
| can get away with. (i.e. I wouldn't expect that to lead to
| Silicon Valley salaries all over the world.)
|
| Unless it's not actually the same work, and location affects
| work. It does at least affect gross pay in any case, I suppose.
| rr888 wrote:
| > why would they pay more for someone from San Francisco?
|
| Because they probably want someone from the area working in
| the company. If they pay a flat rate globally, they only have
| to pay average or lower and get great people in LCOL areas.
| But then you have a company with no people in CA or NY, which
| means you dont have contact with local trends or contacts in
| the big tech companies.
| kodah wrote:
| > why would they pay more for someone from San Francisco?
|
| I can't answer for GitLab, but widely, people often believe
| that San Francisco has an "exceptional" talent pool and that
| companies pay a premium for that because of competition.
| emerongi wrote:
| What's the problem with that? If Gitlab is not paying top of
| the market salaries, then they're just going to miss out on top
| talent, and clearly they're fine with it. It's a free market
| after all, you don't have to join Gitlab.
| chrisan wrote:
| Absolutely nothing is wrong with it.
|
| Just don't call yourself a world leader.
| lucideer wrote:
| If there's nothing wrong with it, why would it preclude one
| being a world leader.
|
| (not saying GL are, there could be other unrelated things
| precluding it)
| rschachte wrote:
| Because being a world leader in remote work would imply
| they don't do that?
| wowokay wrote:
| That doesn't make sense? Just like universal pay doesn't
| make sense unless there is a universal cost to
| everything.
| rschachte wrote:
| It makes sense relative to actual world leaders in tech
| that do not adjust pay based on location.
| codegeek wrote:
| Why should the definition of "World Leader in Remote" be
| based on how they pay. Why can't it be based on the fact
| that they allow fully remote and pay reasonably well for
| your area. Who decides the definition ?
| [deleted]
| chomp wrote:
| Who would you consider to be operationally and culturally
| superior in regards to remote work than Gitlab? Asking
| sincerely, because Gitlab is one of the first brands I
| think of when people mention "remote first culture".
| kirbypineapple wrote:
| Kraken has a few thousand employees, has been a remote
| first company for a decade, and pays the same no matter
| where you live.
| ForHackernews wrote:
| Isn't Kraken part of the crypto game? Not sure they can
| be compared to more mature businesses. Are they paying
| their employees in tokens?
| andsoitis wrote:
| Kraken operates in over 60 countries (according to their
| website). They pay the same amount across all those
| territories, including benefits etc.? I find that hard to
| believe.
| kirbypineapple wrote:
| For engineering/product etc. that's the case. Doesn't
| matter if you move from San Francisco to Thailand or some
| other low cost of living area, your pay remains the same.
| onion2k wrote:
| Not cutting someone's pay when they move is very
| different to hiring someone in Thailand on a Bay Area
| salary.
| b4je7d7wb wrote:
| Why? If both do the same work in the same location, why
| would one get more than the other.
|
| Either you don't adjust the pay when they move because
| you are already paying everyone an equal salary. Or you
| adjust it and pay everyone a local salary.
|
| Gitlab does the latter.
| bottled_poe wrote:
| Why? Because that's how basic market forces work.
| yani wrote:
| Automattic
| emerongi wrote:
| It's in your own personal definition of remote work that
| people should be paid an universal salary.
|
| Gitlab might not be a world leader in salaries, but they
| might very well be a world leader in providing the best
| remote work environment to their employees.
| arccy wrote:
| can it really be "best" if you're treated unequally just
| because live somewhere different?
| codegeek wrote:
| Why would you judge what I want as an employee. If I am
| happy living in a low cost of living area with the salary
| I am getting, why is it your problem to worry for me ?
| lolinder wrote:
| For some people, sure! There are dozens of other metrics
| that can be used to evaluate a remote work environment,
| and for a lot of people "my salary matches my coworkers"
| doesn't matter as long as it's a good wage relative to
| what they'd be able to get working in an office locally.
| detaro wrote:
| From what I've seen the usual points of critique were/are:
|
| * "This person does the exact same work, obviously they need
| to be paid 30% more than you because they could afford to
| move close to an expensive city before applying" doesn't
| sound exactly fair
|
| * "We'll value your work less financially if you move
| somewhere cheaper (not the other way around though)" isn't
| particularly great
|
| * The message(s) of "You can work from everywhere, people can
| move back to rural places and reverse demographic drain from
| there, you can be close to nature, ..." seem a bit hollow
| when paired with "oh, and if you actually do any of those
| great things we'll cut your salary"
|
| * At least when it was public, their salary calculator had
| some hilarious blind spots (one would hope they have a better
| process when it actually comes down to it)
|
| For the other perspective, they've written about why they do
| it: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/total-
| rewards/compensation...,
| https://about.gitlab.com/blog/2019/02/28/why-we-pay-local-
| ra...
| b4je7d7wb wrote:
| They have changed the areas to less specific. Like in
| Europe not individual countries and cities, but thigs like
| "nordic". Try paying a Norwegian and a Finn the same
| multiplier.
|
| Imagine spending so much time and effort to justify paying
| your employees less. It makes financial sense for a public
| company with no soul, but I feel bad for gitlab employees.
| detaro wrote:
| > _They have changed the areas to less specific._
|
| but with a rental-price index for local-ish area instead
| of trying to capture that in their regions? or total
| flat?!
| xtracto wrote:
| Yup, that was my same thought. I live in a "cheaper market"
| location (Mexico) and at some point looked about working in
| Gitlab as a Tech Lead / Sr. Dev or something similar, because
| I liked their service.
|
| The problem is that when I saw their compensation tables for
| Mexico, their offer was going to cut my salary by about 30%
| of what I was actually earning (I think it was about $70k USD
| annual at most, I cannot find the calculator now), in another
| US company _with an office in my hometown_. Instead, I went
| to another US company which is also remote, and got a pay
| bump to $140,000 USD, working from my country.
|
| I am not asking to get paid in FAANG Valley salaries ($400k+)
| but even paying me 50%-60% of what they pay to someoneone in
| the US makes a win-win situation IMHO.
| mountainriver wrote:
| Last I heard they were which makes them NOT a leader in remote
| work lol
|
| They underpay in general which is why their product is buggy
| tapanjk wrote:
| > They underpay in general which is why their product is
| buggy
|
| I understand the sentiment but I am not convinced that
| underpay is the cause of buggyness. They compete with a
| behemoth and it is quite a feat to stay in the game in spite
| of having a fraction of resources at their disposal compared
| to thier completion.
| mountainriver wrote:
| Yeah fair it's somewhat cultural, in that they are trying
| to roll out an insane number of features to best Github,
| but aren't building them with high quality
| ROARosen wrote:
| You pay according to location for the same bottle of Coke? How
| is work pay different?
|
| Why shouldn't payment for work be tied to local price ranges
| and cost of living?
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > Why shouldn't payment for work be tied to local price
| ranges and cost of living?
|
| Why should it be? You pay someone enough to get them to work
| for you instead of someone else. That's the sole reason you
| pay someone anything at all. And there's no reason to pay
| them any more than that. How do local prices and cost of
| living fit into that equation?
| lolinder wrote:
| Presumably GitLab will stop using local prices and cost of
| living when continuing to use them gets in the way of
| hiring developers they'd like to hire. As of now, it seems
| that it's working for them.
|
| If we enter a world where most SWEs work remotely and few
| other companies are paying location-based, we might see
| GitLab change their tune. For now, they're competing first
| and foremost against local jobs.
| b4je7d7wb wrote:
| Yes, but that is not a company that should be praised as
| world leader in remote work.
|
| How do you expect to ever raise the standard of living in
| poor countries if you exploit their labor for pennies on
| the dollar. No different from apple and other who move
| manufacturing to cheap labor.
|
| A real leader in remote work would try to be a part of
| the solution, not actively fight against it.
| codegeek wrote:
| Just because a company may not pay salaries compared to
| say Bay Area, doesn't mean they are not paying great
| salary for your location. It is a stretch to say that
| they are exploiting labor for pennies if they are paying
| a good market rate salary for the area they are hiring
| in.
| b4je7d7wb wrote:
| Ah, so exactly the same model like the sweatshops in
| Asia. Pay just good enough that they can't afford to not
| do the job. Very generous.
| codegeek wrote:
| Nice but wrong. Sweatshops pay like shit. I am talking
| about good Pay in your area (greater than average cost of
| living). Apples and Oranges.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > Sweatshops pay like shit.
|
| Like Gitlab then?
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > For now, they're competing first and foremost against
| local jobs.
|
| 'We keep up with mediocre local jobs' is hardly 'world
| leader' is it?
| joshmanders wrote:
| Because you're paying me for my skills and expertise, not for
| where I live.
| alchemist1e9 wrote:
| This is likely correct in the long run and it means
| software engineering compensation will be dropping
| significantly in the next decade.
| bottled_poe wrote:
| This is the "eat it too" aspect which a lot of other
| threads here seem to be ignoring.
| halfmatthalfcat wrote:
| This line has been repeated ad nauseum but I have never
| seen any backing data. Why would salaries decrease?
| Software development, done well, is a highly technical
| craft. Maybe for the first rung of developers it'll go
| way down but those Staff/Senior Staff I would expect to
| still command large salaries.
| PenguinCoder wrote:
| 100% absolutely agreed. You're paying me for the work I can
| do for you. If someone else on the team with the same role
| and JD as me, gets paid more while you expect the _same
| level of work_ from us both, that's bullshit. Admit then
| you the company are paying less because you want the
| cheaper labor and don't complain when I put in less effort
| thsn the other person you're paying more. Paid for effort
| and knowledge, not the goddamn city I live in. If it's the
| same job, it should pay the same wage. Period.
| BlargMcLarg wrote:
| Well, it _is_ great way to make talent in HoCL areas get
| priced out of the market, should the market reach a point
| where there 's enough talent in LoCL willing to work for
| lower rates. Theoretically, anyway.
| bastardoperator wrote:
| Why would you pay two people doing the same job vastly
| different salaries because one lives in A and the other lives
| in B? That's the better question to be answered. I am not
| bottle of coke, and neither are my colleagues, we're humans,
| so your analogy makes zero sense.
| vernon99 wrote:
| Because physical goods are subject to differently priced
| logistics and local ingridients and remote work is not?
| Seriously, how can you even compare?
| vruiz wrote:
| The price of Coke is influenced by logistics but ultimately
| it's determined by the market (supply and demand), exactly
| the same as your work, that's capitalism.
|
| What's the market in this context is of course the
| interesting question.
| sixo wrote:
| in the tech job market generally, the value of the work to
| the company puts an upper bar on a salary, but competition
| with other employers for the same worker puts a lower bar
| on salary (obviously along with other factors like the
| company's reputation, mission, benefits). In practice all
| salaries are set by the latter rule, which means they
| depend on the job market, which varies by location. That
| salaries should _not_ depend on location is a fantasy based
| on some weird idea of people getting "paid what they
| deserve"--a fallacious association between your salary and
| your worth as a person, which people would do well to get
| over.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > which means they depend on the job market, which varies
| by location
|
| Aren't you commenting on a post about remote work? Their
| job market is global (within limitations.)
| lasereyes136 wrote:
| The cost of most commodities varies by location. This
| includes Coke. It is called price discrimination.
|
| The whole reason DVDs had regions was to price the same DVD
| differently based on location. As long as companies can, they
| will price and pay different amounts for the same thing based
| on local factors.
| mmaia wrote:
| GitLab doesn't charge based on the location of their
| customers.
| comprev wrote:
| Gitlab ideally wants clients in Silicon Valley but staff in
| Lahore.
| motoxpro wrote:
| Never thought about this, but man, very much this.
| comprev wrote:
| It hits pretty hard when you think about it. The "product
| distribution" cost is the same worldwide on the internet,
| vs a physical good like a soft drinks can.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| Gitlab's company handbook is absolutely amazing if you haven't
| read it: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/
|
| Every company should be handbook-driven.
| danbmil99 wrote:
| This seems pretty spammy for a top-10 slot on HN
| whateveracct wrote:
| https://about.gitlab.com/blog/2015/03/04/gitlab-is-part-of-t...
| sithlord wrote:
| Thats certainly a self-proclaimed title.
| BlargMcLarg wrote:
| Aye. I like Gitlab for pushing remote work, but sure feels like
| trying to pivot into selling shovels by claiming to be
| 'experts' on a 'difficult topic'.
| dellIsBetter wrote:
| The comparation is great:
| https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/all-remo...
| neogodless wrote:
| To elaborate, the above is a table highlighting all the
| benefits of Full Remote over Hybrid Remote.
| detaro wrote:
| Although it is comparing with a thing they basically say "we
| define it as not having these benefits". I know companies I
| would define as "hybrid" were not all those negatives apply.
| cglan wrote:
| Their pay was abysmally low last time I applied. The company
| seems cool but the salaries as a senior were honestly kind of
| silly in this market.
| postalrat wrote:
| Then you missed the biggest advantage of remote only: they can
| hire from any market.
| bottled_poe wrote:
| It's kinda funny everyone here arguing they should be paid
| the same regardless of location - but then complaining when
| the reality of that wish is not what they'd imagined.
| webdood90 wrote:
| yes, very silly that people desire equally well paid jobs
| regardless of location. how very silly of them.
| bottled_poe wrote:
| It just doesn't match the reality of market forces and
| it's obvious.
| somerandomqaguy wrote:
| What pay was that? Last I checked Gitlab's pay for a junior
| QA/SDET positions was about $15,000 $30,000 more then most
| local Canadian tech companies pay for senior/staff level.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| I think their remote pay is based on some kind of survey of
| local salaries? There's no tech jobs near me, so I guess they
| picked up the next-best-thing which was maybe like call centre
| workers or something? It was so low I wouldn't recommend to a
| new-grad, and this was for senior level. When you looked they
| also had these peculiar small islands of higher pay - so I
| guess it's really pay by what you can negotiate and they create
| an island for you if you're important enough?
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