[HN Gopher] TV, or not TV: the story of our bike box (2019)
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TV, or not TV: the story of our bike box (2019)
Author : EvgeniyZh
Score : 130 points
Date : 2022-07-18 11:07 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.vanmoof.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.vanmoof.com)
| stefs wrote:
| the necessity of this hack always makes me angrier than it
| should.
| stevekemp wrote:
| I actually feel pretty good about it.
|
| All the faceless individuals who are involved in moving parcels
| probably have to throw them around constantly, stacking them,
| lifting them, moving them, taking them off, putting them on
| different pallets, trucks.
|
| With no idea what's inside them, they probably don't care so
| much about being gentle. Or they might think "It must be well
| packed, people would know better".
|
| Yet suddenly? The box has "fragile" written on it, indirectly,
| and people care. People take the time, they make the effort,
| and they genuinely try not to smash your (presumably new) TV.
| csunbird wrote:
| The box had already stickers that prove the cargo is fragile,
| even before putting TV images on the boxes. It is just that
| the handlers do not care at all if the cargo is fragile or
| not, but they probably receive quite a lot of heat for
| improperly handling TVs and monitors, as the damage to those
| items are quite visible.
| Someone wrote:
| They likely also know better that televisions in boxes are
| fragile than that bicycle frames are before they have even
| handled one professionally.
|
| Even if they don't they will likely learn that televisions
| in boxes are fragile sooner than that they learn that about
| bicycle frames, as they'll handle a lot more of them.
|
| I also suspect most televisions crack sooner than bicycle
| frames.
| thrashh wrote:
| What does fragile mean? Does it mean you can't drop it?
| I've seen people poorly pack a box so you can't drop the
| box without something breaking and then they slap "FRAGILE"
| on it. People put fragile on all sorts of boxes that
| shouldn't have it and so the meaning of fragile on a box
| has been weakened.
|
| Whereas with a TV, everyone knows what a TV box can sustain
| and can't.
| sangnoir wrote:
| > It is just that the handlers do not care at all if the
| cargo is fragile or not
|
| Why should the underpaid and overworked handler care? In
| the US, handlers at hubs earn minimum wage and are expected
| to process a certain number of packages per shift - so they
| may not provide the care you'd expect. Drivers earn more
| than minimum wage, but still are pressured to deliver
| quickly - so packages get tossed a lot. The handlers
| incentives are not aligned with the shippers - and this for
| the _unionized_ courier (UPS) - I imagine FedEx and DHL may
| be more demanding on throughput.
| jp57 wrote:
| Also, bikes are certainly assumed to be durable objects that
| can take a beating.
| aardvarkr wrote:
| The world isn't perfect mate, don't let small things like this
| make you angry :)
| mlyle wrote:
| "Fragile" stickers are overused and on way too many boxes that
| aren't. They can't be careful with _everything_ with their
| expected level of productivity.
|
| Most things that are marked "fragile"-- if they end up with a
| big gouge in the front of the box-- will probably be OK. But
| everyone knows that's super, super bad for a TV and whomever
| gets that TV is going to refuse delivery.
| [deleted]
| is_true wrote:
| I was at the post office the other day and there was a big flat
| box that said: "IT'S A FRAME. DO NOT BEND"
|
| It's like the people working with boxes like to reshape things.
| mlyle wrote:
| Try to cram as many as you can on a truck, and then unload them
| and stack them somewhere, and resort, and cram as many of those
| as you can onto a different truck. See if you end up applying
| weird loads to boxes.
| is_true wrote:
| Boxes have symbols that show how to stack them, where the
| center of gravity is and a bunch of other things, if you are
| interested: ISO 780
| mlyle wrote:
| I know about ISO 780. :D I also know about the constraints
| logistics companies work under. If you think package
| handlers are looking at all the symbols at the box and
| carefully considering how to best meet them for an entire
| shipment...
|
| My buddy who worked at FedEx once told me that "fragile"
| was a french word that means "to drop kick".
|
| These symbols are much more effective in manufacturer and
| retailer-controlled portions of the supply chain. Once your
| goods are mixed with goods from many other customers, and
| individual accountability is lower... bad stuff is gonna
| happen.
| loeg wrote:
| I've had friends complain about USPS bending vinyl records to
| fit them in a mailbox, for example.
| rzzzt wrote:
| Can't find the story (I think it was on an Imgur post of a
| similar box), but in that one the sticker says "BEND ME NOW!"
| Reverse psychology.
| markstos wrote:
| We can hope for the future where TV companies are printing
| bicycles on their boxes.
| billsmithaustin wrote:
| Clever idea but I wonder how long before the shippers figure out
| those are really bike boxes.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| It's almost certainly well known now. I don't know if they have
| time to look at the sender on every box though.
| uoaei wrote:
| Modern shipping warehouses are so frenetic and fast-paced,
| there is literally zero time for conscious minds to register
| what is shown on any box.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| I would guess the way they treat the boxes is likely
| subconscious, rather than based on an actual considered belief
| on whether they contain a TV or not.
| ploum wrote:
| This is why this hack tells a lot about our society. We value
| television so highly that we take care of it as soon as we
| subconsciously think it's a television.
|
| Television is such a symbol that we start to abuse that
| symbol.
|
| Pretty sad when you think about it.
| NoSorryCannot wrote:
| They're just a common large item known for being expensive
| and fragile and they have a distinctive box shape. Not sure
| it goes any deeper than that.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > We value television so highly
|
| I don't think we do - television viewing has dropped off a
| cliff over the last decade or so. Many people don't own one
| any more.
| clsec wrote:
| You would think that would be a good idea but my last TV arrived
| with a whole in the box.
| netsharc wrote:
| They didn't claim it reduced damages to 0, but down 70-80% from
| before.
|
| You should tell Samsung to print "Nuclear bomb" on their
| boxes...
| unwind wrote:
| *hole I guess. Was the tv ok?
| clsec wrote:
| D'oh!
|
| Yeah, there was a mark on the screen but everything was fine.
| em-bee wrote:
| you can edit comments to fix typos...
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| I wonder why whole bothers me more than then/than
| your/you're would of/would've ? lol
| em-bee wrote:
| that's a good question. i think it has to do with the the
| first/last letters being more important to match a word.
|
| as long as those match you can guess the content easy
| enough: https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-
| the-mind/human...
|
| and i am guessing the first letter is even more
| important.
| pkulak wrote:
| That doesn't seem fine!
| jp57 wrote:
| What I find interesting about this is that if you were to show
| typical folks a TV (out of the box) and an assembled bicycle, and
| ask which is fragile and which is not, essentially everyone would
| say the TV is fragile and, importantly, the bicycle is not
| fragile. After all, bicycles are meant to be ridden outdoors, in
| the rain, through all manner of conditions, bumping over curbs,
| falling over, etc.
|
| When a TV is packed for shipping it actually becomes somewhat
| more durable. But it seems that when a bike is packed for
| shipping it seems it becomes more fragile than when assembled.
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| I don't think it's that the bike is more fragile when shipped,
| but it's susceptible to different kinds of damage. Bike frames
| are optimised to be extremely strong in certain directions
| whilst using the minimum amount of material and certainly with
| carbon fibre, the frame "tubes" are incredibly strong to riding
| bumps, but can crack horribly when bumped from the side. Metal
| frames tend to be more resilient to sideways knocks, but the
| principle still applies.
|
| When shipped in a large rectangular box (the most practical
| shape for a bike), there's more chance that the impact is going
| to be on the large face and that's the direction that bike
| frames are not optimised for.
| rambambram wrote:
| If you people want to do Dutch bikes because of esthetics,
| consider other brands like Cortina or BSP. If they are available
| abroad, that is. I had a lightweight but sturdy Gazelle for some
| time. Now a BSP. Both matte black, strong frame, etc.
|
| Vanmoof has beautiful bikes, but one of the things I don't like
| about it is the sitting position. The steer is basically not
| higher than the frame. Very bad for back, shoulders and wrists.
| It even pains me when I only see people riding that bike here.
| That position is not maintainable for a longer time, especially
| if you're a desk worker.
|
| What I did with my bikes - which had a slightly higher steer, but
| not enough - is turn the steering pen towards the saddle and then
| put the steer back and turn it slightly upwards with the ends. I
| also had a longer re-adjustable steering pen, which was perfect.
| See here for a pic:
| https://www.theredpanther.org/?module=timeline&link=1&title=...
| Shivatron wrote:
| > The steer is basically not higher than the frame. Very bad
| for back, shoulders and wrists. ... That position is not
| maintainable for a longer time, especially if you're a desk
| worker.
|
| A slight forward lean is desirable. Sitting bolt upright on a
| bike makes it very hard to engage your biggest, most efficient
| muscles: your glutes and hamstrings. This is also why the
| "athletic position" is universal to just about every physical
| activity; the slight crouch is similar to the natural position
| on a bike. Those larger muscles help stabilize your pelvis,
| reducing the force on your shoulders, arms, and wrists.
| https://www.pedalpt.com/upright-bicycling/
|
| (There are other benefits too--the bike's handling improves as
| weight is balanced between the front and rear wheels and the
| center of gravity is lowered--but I'll assume we're talking
| about purely recreational/daily needs riding where such
| concerns are secondary.)
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| What's the incentive structure for careful handling of packages?
|
| E.g., I think delivery drivers have quotas for speed and
| completeness. But those are also easily measured by existing
| systems.
|
| But with shipping damage, is there currently a good way to assign
| blame? Seems like you'd need a way to attest that everything was
| okay prior to each handoff.
|
| I know shock sensors, etc. exist. But I'm guessing they're
| reserved for expensive items?
| bombcar wrote:
| They do exist and are usually used for expensive items or
| pallets - https://www.uline.com/Grp_332/Damage-Indicators
|
| For truckload pallets, you either contract with the shipper
| end-to-end or you require them to allocate blame. The term FOB
| comes in here - you want stuff "FOB destination" which means
| it's the sellers problem until you receive it (FOB origin means
| it is _your_ problem once it leaves the seller 's warehouse).
|
| This is why truckload shipments always tell you to examine the
| pallet _before_ the driver leaves.
|
| For things shipped UPS, etc, they're often smaller and the
| shipper just eats damage, not worth filing claims.
|
| Note that the stickers from Uline are to show you that the
| pallet has been jostled/hit even if it physically "looks good".
| cactus2093 wrote:
| Clever idea, but I wish they would put this much thought &
| problem-solving effort into their bikes themselves. Their bikes
| have an auto-shifting system with hub gearing that is very prone
| to breaking. On a normal bike to avoid putting unnecessary strain
| on the drivetrain you learn to not shift under heavy load, in the
| middle of a heavy pedal stroke. With a bike that just decides to
| shift on its own you have no control over that so it will
| inevitably sometimes shift at the worst time. I don't understand
| how that design even makes it past the whiteboard stage, much
| less into the production product that has been shipping for
| years.
|
| I guess maybe it's a fine bike for riding the bike paths of
| Amsterdam which is very flat, if you're very careful to never
| pedal hard and always let the motor do all the work. But in a
| more chaotic environment riding on the roads in a place that has
| hills, it's unusable. I had to return my bike after the shifting
| broke twice within a couple of weeks, and the internet is full of
| many, many stories from people with the same issue.
| cowmoo728 wrote:
| Google is sponsoring employees to lease Vanmoof S3 and X3.
| Anecdotally I've seen a huge increase in the number of S3
| owners in the south bay area. I'm leasing the X3 myself.
|
| I also agree on the auto shifting. I'm an experienced cyclist
| and own a number of bikes and do regular weekend rides in the
| mountains. The auto shifting on vanmoof bikes is absolutely
| awful for me and caused horrible janky shifts while I was
| putting torque through the system. The gearing is also all
| wrong, since the cadence is way too low in most gears and at
| the top speed. Thankfully vanmoof added manual shifting into a
| fairly recent update.
|
| But on the other hand, my non cyclist wife loves auto shifting.
| She rarely puts power into the pedals and likes the low cadence
| for easy cruising. She just uses the turbo button whenever she
| wants to accelerate. So it's clearly designed for flat roads
| and easy riding for non cyclists.
| bombcar wrote:
| If there's auto shifting there's a computer somewhere, and so
| you'd think a firmware update that made it so that it
| wouldn't auto-shift under heavy load could be applied (call
| it semi-auto mode or something); then you could leave it in
| auto but if you wanted it to shift when pushing hard just let
| off the pedals a bit and it'd do so.
| kgermino wrote:
| Only if it has the sensors for it. There's a decent chance
| it just has a cheaper cadence sensor on the pedals, not a
| torque sensor or other way to tell if you are pushing hard.
| Xylakant wrote:
| I can't speak for VanMoof but the Bosch ebike motors
| definitely have a torque sensor (+), and my old Douze had
| one, too. You can't do proportional assist without a
| torque sensor. I would consider it probable that VanMoof
| has one, too.
|
| (+) some folks on a German forum reserve engineered the
| can bus protocol for the Bosch motor and it exposes
| torque https://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index.php?thread
| s/bosch-ac...
| cactus2093 wrote:
| Nope, Van Moof uses a cheaper cadence sensor not a torque
| sensor. Bosch ebike motors are amazing and a huge step
| up, but bikes that use them generally sell for $5000+ and
| the Van Moof S3/X3 are half that price.
| [deleted]
| bombcar wrote:
| Hmm I would have thought it had the equivalent of
| regenerative braking and could detect how much "power"
| you were creating, but ... it seems that's not how it's
| designed.
| Xylakant wrote:
| Regenerative braking on bikes is a bit harder than it is
| on cars - you can't easily combine regenerative braking
| with a freewheel - if the rider stops pedaling that's not
| a sufficiently good signal to start regenerative braking.
| With cars, the signal is there - the driver stops
| depressing the accelerator.
|
| Additionally, with middle motors (which most ebikes today
| have), you'd need to have the chain run continuously to
| transfer the power from the wheel back to the motor, and
| you likely could not do that with a derailleur shifting
| setup.
|
| That said, I've seen (but not tested) one model that had
| regenerative braking, so that does (or at least used to)
| exist.
| bombcar wrote:
| I can see the middle motor problem (though the company
| here claims to have solved it by using a front motor
| instead) - but there is a signal available to the bike;
| the brakes themselves.
|
| I'm not sure that cars even begin regenerative braking
| until you actually hit the brakes as opposed to just
| letting off the accelerator.
| Xylakant wrote:
| The electric cars I have tried all started regenerative
| braking when you let go of the accelerator. As an
| additional problem for bikes: they are rear-wheel drive
| and the primary braking power comes from the front wheel
| for normal bikes (load distribution shift to the front
| when braking). Cargo bikes and tandems are a bit of an
| exception here. I'm not saying it's impossible - as I
| wrote above I know it exists. It's just a lot of effort
| for comparatively little gain, and so it's pretty rare.
| bombcar wrote:
| I think that's the main thing - the amount of energy lost
| by bringing a bike to a stop is nothing compared to that
| of bringing a car to a stop from 60 MPH.
|
| And they're probably better off just adding a generator
| in-line with the pedals (in fact, I'm surprised these
| things have "direct drive" at all and aren't just a
| generator on the pedals with a wire to a motor on the
| front/rear hub).
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| If the gearing range is universally too high for the kind of
| riding you do, you can get any bike shop to swap the rear
| cassette to a larger one, or the front chain ring(s) to
| smaller ones. The chain may need to be shortened.
| TheDong wrote:
| > you can get any bike shop to swap the rear cassette to a
| larger one
|
| That's less likely to happen with the vanmoof. They have a
| custom-made chain guard which is integrated into the bike,
| and would not fit larger cogs.
|
| They also have an internal hub, not a typical cassette and
| derailleur setup, so modifying the drivetrain is a more
| involved affair.
|
| I think most local bike shops would tell you to have
| vanmooof do it out of fear of voiding your warranty.
| sparrc wrote:
| > But in a more chaotic environment riding on the roads in a
| place that has hills, it's unusable
|
| I ride my vanmoof in Seattle (very hilly and urban) and to say
| the auto-shift is "unusable" is a huge exaggeration IMO. It
| occasionally catches me out when I'm pedaling hard but for the
| most part it works OK.
|
| Also, they've supported manual shifting for almost a year now:
| https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/31/22649901/vanmoof-s3-x3-au...
| cactus2093 wrote:
| The manual shifting is a big improvement at least, I didn't
| realize it was officially supported. Back when I had the bike
| almost 2 years ago there was the 3rd party Moofer app that
| supported it but Van Moof the company was very adamant that
| even installing this app would void your warranty. Which was
| another decision that makes me feel negatively towards the
| company overall.
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