[HN Gopher] Tell HN: I have the perfect job, why is it not enough?
___________________________________________________________________
Tell HN: I have the perfect job, why is it not enough?
I am in my mid-thirties, working four days a week, and making over
100k. I have a house, a good relationship with my wife, and young
and healthy kids. I work from home. My job is technically
interesting, and I still learn/improve. I do not have meetings. One
or sometimes two 30 min calls a week with my boss. Most days, I do
not have to interact with anyone from work, not even customer
contact. If I knew I could have a job like this ten years ago, I
would have thought that's it, the dream. But somehow, it isn't.
It's never enough. I dream about doing my own thing or retiring
early to do other projects. It is probably human to always want
more. So HN, how did you settle and slow down and become happy
with the way it is without always wanting more?
Author : perfectjob
Score : 329 points
Date : 2022-07-11 18:15 UTC (4 hours ago)
| ddfitb wrote:
| May I ask what your job is specifically?
| perfectjob wrote:
| Software engineer, both frontend and backend.
| jordanpg wrote:
| I just left that same situation for law school. I start at a
| patent law firm in the fall making about 1.5x my salary as a SWE,
| with significantly more upward potential.
|
| I'll let you know if I settle and slow down or become happy with
| the way it is without always wanting more. /s
| threads2 wrote:
| Maybe reading good books could help - like Goethe's Faust:
|
| > If Mephistopheles can grant Faust a moment of transcendence on
| Earth, a moment that he wishes to remain forever, then he will
| instantly die and serve the Devil in Hell. Faust does not believe
| that Mephistopheles can accomplish this and accepts the wager.
| barnabee wrote:
| I am a relentless optimiser and someone whose mind immediately
| always goes to how a situation can be improved or how I can
| achieve more.
|
| I became happy when I realised none of that shit has remotely
| anything to do with happiness, which is a state of mind and to
| some extent a choice.
|
| I'm still a relentless optimiser and just as driven (maybe more
| so). But when it comes to happiness, rather than allow myself to
| believe I'll be unhappy until I achieve X or solve problem Y, I
| now optimise for finding the path and the narrative[1] I can tell
| myself that will make me happy with things as they are.
|
| The bonus is it's easier to do more and optimise the crap out of
| anything when you're happy doing it.
|
| Good luck! I sincerely hope you get past this, whatever the
| solution.
|
| P.S. similar to how others have commented, I've also found
| focusing on others to be incredibly helping in framing that
| narrative and thinking about my life
|
| [1] to me this has been super key-- it is all about framing, and
| the stories I repeatedly tell myself about my situation and the
| world around me.
| djtalia wrote:
| I found contentment required years of therapy and two types of
| antidepressants. Turns out if you feel you always need something
| new you may be depressed! Who knew.
| vando wrote:
| Come to live in South America and you will love your actual job.
| Trust me.
| sdfhdhjdw3 wrote:
| Everyone here telling you to want less; I'll take the other side.
|
| Maybe the disconnect comes from your (past) expectation that
| 100k, and house and kids is good enough. You see, the problem
| isn't the present you, the problem was the past you, with its
| mediocre expectations.
|
| I say, if you want more stop complaining and make a plan.
| dcow wrote:
| OP is clearly saying they don't want more: they're happy with
| what they've got and it is new and unfamiliar and they don't
| know what to do...
|
| Most of the advice is not "want less" that's not what people
| are saying. They're saying "want beyond yourself". Want more by
| looking outwards instead of inwards and start to pursue that.
| sdfhdhjdw3 wrote:
| > OP is clearly saying they don't want more
|
| No, he's saying he DOES want more.
|
| > But somehow, it isn't. It's never enough.
|
| > I dream about doing my own thing or retiring early to do
| other projects.
| smk_ wrote:
| Happiness always reverts back to a baseline level. You will never
| escape this baseline level.
|
| Up until this point in your life, meaning has been a projection -
| a goal ahead of you. You have now reached this goal, realised the
| projection, and must find a new projection, a new project. You
| must find an I beyond the self, a goal that encompasses but is
| larger than yourself.
|
| I recommend the book "What is Existentialism?" by Simone de
| Beauvoir as a starting point.
| FFRefresh wrote:
| My two cents (as someone who definitely does not have all the
| answers, but is learning as I get older):
|
| 1) Know that this is a completely normal feeling, especially in
| more individualistic/atomized cultures where status competitions
| are more pronounced.
|
| 2) YOU have the answer to your question, it's just a matter of
| uncovering it. I would recommend writing/journaling. Spend a lot
| of quiet time exploring your thoughts, and asking probing
| questions of yourself. "Why do I want to do more? What do I think
| will happen once I do those projects? How will that feel? etc."
| If I were to guess, _some_ of the story may be around the drive
| for increased social status. But I can only speculate.
|
| 3) Remember you are a human with a physical body/needs, stay
| attuned to it. Move your body, exercise, go outside and breathe
| in fresh air, eat well, play with your kids/family/friends.
| Working remote and on a computer is incredibly convenient, but
| sometimes it removes our attention from the physical world.
|
| 4) Be BIG in your very SMALL world, forget about trying to be BIG
| in the BIG world - If there's any part of you that thinks about
| how what you accomplish looks to others and how it'll reflect on
| your relative status/legacy, I'd recommend making your world
| smaller/more local. The internet/media shows us what outliers are
| doing all around the world at all times, and it can make whatever
| we're doing feel so miniscule in comparison. You'll never 'Win'
| the global status games, nobody can really. Focus on your very
| small part of the world, your family, your friends, your local
| community. How can you be the best parent/spouse/neighbor to
| them? Being good here has the highest ROI once you've let go of
| the global status games (which you'll be forced to let go of at
| some point). For creative projects - what will bring YOU or those
| closest to you joy? Forget about thinking about how anything you
| build will scale broadly/globally.
| mllllv wrote:
| I believe if you learn to love and enjoy the most mundane tasks
| like sweeping the floor, washing your hands, walking to the
| mailbox, etc, and appreciate the opportunity they provide you to
| recognize the eternal present and all its glory, everything else
| will fall into place.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| There's no such thing as perfect anything, so by definition it
| can never be good enough
| brailsafe wrote:
| Do you have any friends, hobbies, or sense of adventure? If not,
| then it'd be obvious to me what you're missing. I have no
| savings, no investments, no assets and very few possessions, no
| security of any kind, and just entered my thirties, no children,
| I rent, and make maybe around a similar amount. But I have a
| decent social life, a good relationship, There's not really
| anything I want right now that I can't access, except reliability
| of that income so I can apply it to more adventure, and time. I
| envy your no meetings setup, can't stand them. No debt would be
| nice too.
| foooobaba wrote:
| In my subjective opinion, I would say it's probably not
| meaningful to you for whatever reason. Only you can know what's
| meaningful to you, and this might be something that you need to
| discover. I find that a writing session can help (like 1-3 hour
| one time session), like write down what makes you happy, sad,
| annoyed, what you're doing, what you want to do, and so on. It
| might give you a clue of what is meaningful to you, and how you
| can incorporate it into your life.
|
| From what I understand about humans we have evolved over time,
| suffering in order to motivate ourselves to fix the suffering in
| our life. When there is no suffering we still on the lookout for
| problems to solve, or fun to be had, or things to learn.
|
| Maybe even something simple like planning and doing a fun weekend
| adventure with your family will bring meaning in that moment,
| then next weekend you read a book about something interesting.
| Only you can discover it for yourself.
|
| Here is a metaphor to explain it differently: I think we have
| evolved to climb the mountain, not hang out at the top for the
| rest of our life. Once you climb enough mountains, that can
| become meaningless, and maybe it's time to try swimming.
| rayiner wrote:
| It's tough to achieve a balance between healthy ambition to
| improve and nagging dissatisfaction and restlessness. I'm not in
| anybody else's head, but for me it's about matching my values to
| my reality. I pursue the things I value and value the things I
| have. Religion and culture have made things easier for me, I
| guess. Where I'm from, the things you've already achieved are a
| good life's work. (I guess that, and visiting your mom on a
| regular basis.) My parents are happy with me and I'm able to
| support my kids and everything on top of that is icing on the
| cake.
| monkeydust wrote:
| I wonder if you subconsciously crave more contact with your
| colleagues and clients. Perhaps try to up this over a few weeks
| see how you feel after.
| [deleted]
| turdnagel wrote:
| I've had / am having a similar experience. One of the things I've
| come to realize -- and I'm not suggesting this is your problem,
| but it could be -- is that I often compare myself to other people
| who I gauge as having a level of "success" (a poorly defined
| term) that I would like to have. I've found that these kinds of
| comparisons aren't helpful for me, and I haven't really optimized
| my life around my career anyway. I was (and maybe still am)
| looking to project the same kind of success for no good reason.
| In turn, I've learned to really look inward and think about the
| kinds of things that "recharge my batteries" -- spending time
| with my family, working on hobbies that provide me a creative
| outlet, and not setting really high, unreachable expectations for
| myself. Hope this is helpful.
| Vanderson wrote:
| Focusing on other people will take your focus off yourself.
|
| I have found satisfaction in helping others. The less personal
| time I have, the more I value it and the more satisfying life
| generally is. Also, this is very likely temporary, as your kids
| get older your life will change with them. They will have more
| and more adult and complicated life needs.
|
| I found that forcing myself to do things differently based on
| other people's advice (especially when I didn't feel like it)
| often brought extremely unexpected results. But there is a
| massive inertia with changing who you are and the day to day
| choices you make.
| agumonkey wrote:
| > It is probably human to always want more.
|
| pet theory of mine, the "wanting self" is a flawed behavior
| inherited from childhood (that many, myself first, still have),
| it's useful to stop listening to it. Maybe focus on sharing your
| time with family, it may lessen the need to satisfy your inner
| self.
| ipaddr wrote:
| You have no standup meetings, work 4 days a week and only have
| two calls a week. You are in a good place things can slip into
| scrum quickly.. you don't want that. Find the things you love
| about your role and honor them because in a blank you could be at
| Amazon chasing some dream oncall hoping you were not hired to be
| fired or trying your own business only to realize you hate
| selling. Thread carefully.. and start investing in projects
| outside of work.
| exolymph wrote:
| Accept the dissatisfaction :)
| perfectjob wrote:
| Software engineer, both frontend and backend.
| technothrasher wrote:
| I've found that living through my job was never going to be
| ultimately satisfying. I enjoy my job well enough, and I've been
| at the same one now for 28 years, but it's not where I look for
| fulfillment. Instead I focus my needs for exploration, meaning,
| social connection, and creative energy into hobbies. A hobby is
| much easier to change or entirely dump without much consequence
| when it is no longer satisfying. I've played around with and very
| much enjoyed classic cars, watch repair, old clocks, beer
| brewing, fishing, firearms, archery, hunting, cooking,
| volunteering at a hospital, volunteering at a museum, and plenty
| more. All of them allowed me to learn something new, meet new
| people, and just overall enjoy a new journey. And when my
| interest waned (and it did naturally on all of it) I just happily
| closed the book and moved on, sometimes coming back to something,
| sometimes not. And as a bonus, the friendships I made each time
| still continue on.
| jrockway wrote:
| Throwing my hat into the ring here late, but I think it's OK to
| want more. Always be taking steps towards the next thing. If
| that's a promotion at work, start trying to include yourself in
| projects at that next level. If that's starting your own company,
| join a smaller company and take a more active role in the day-to-
| day; learn what you need to do to be successful out on your own.
| (My read is that you will spend a few months writing the code
| that you want to sell, and then the next 10 years convincing
| investors and customers to give you money.)
|
| You should always be taking small steps towards the "next thing".
| Many people are perfectly happy not reaching for more or trying
| new things. They show up at work, do their 8 hours, and repeat
| for 30 years. That's totally fine, but I don't think you'd ask
| this question if that was your outlook.
| kingzulu wrote:
| I used to worry about never being satisfied. Then I hit some
| burnout where I had no ambition and was depressed. It is much
| better to keep wanting more. Wanting more means you are alive and
| motivated. Nurture and continue to enjoy that feeling.
| brian_herman wrote:
| Don't know I like my job I need to work on the other things in my
| life like finding a SO and exercise.
| RyanGoosling wrote:
| Hey dude, get into construction as a hobby and build a DIY,
| permitted home addition or ADU. I think you will find fulfillment
| there.
| theptip wrote:
| Personally that sounds like boring work to me (no
| offense/judgement intended). I think a lot of people imagine that
| just getting to code without any "distractions" would be ideal,
| and for some extremely introverted personality types that may be
| true. But I think even moderately introverted people tend to
| thrive with more social contact than you are describing.
|
| For me, I enjoy some amount of social interaction by way of
| collaboration with colleagues. Working together with someone
| (either business/product stakeholder, or on the technical side)
| to explore a design space and figure out a good solution can be
| as or more fun than the flow state from coding.
|
| Particularly during Covid with reduced socialization outside of
| work I think that I would go crazy if I had just 8 hours a day of
| coding with no other interaction.
|
| I think it's totally fine to want something more stimulating from
| your career. Maybe you can ask for expanded scope from your
| current role (eg doing more "tech lead" type work). If you are
| committed to WFH, perhaps try interviewing for a more senior
| role, which will expose you to more collaboration (All else being
| equal, it can be easier to get a seniority bump by transitioning
| to a smaller company, though this might entail a pay cut). If you
| are not committed to WFH, consider a role with some time in the
| office. It's simply much easier to collaborate in person. Though
| of course, commutes impose their own costs.
|
| It's also possible that this role is a good fit for you, and you
| are feeling a bit depressed due to the frankly depressing last
| couple of years. Think about whether your social life and hobbies
| outside work have suffered, and if there is anything you need to
| do to restart them.
|
| And finally, FIRE is a totally valid goal. Work isn't everything,
| if you can find a path to independence that is worth considering.
|
| In summary, I think it's valid that you aren't finding your
| current situation fulfilling, and I don't think it's wrong to
| change things up to keep things fresh.
| wackget wrote:
| What is your job?
| golmedo wrote:
| Congrats on everything you've achieved! A great philosopher said
| "You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our heart is restless
| until it rests in you." A life without purpose or meaning, even
| the greatest life, is not enough for the human heart. Our heart
| was designed for something greater than our jobs, and we only
| find happiness when we give ourselves entirely to others and to
| something greater than ourselves. Maybe St. Augustine wiritings
| can help you (Confessions is great), and Victor Frenkl's "Man's
| search for meaning". He was an Auswitch survivor who studied the
| who survived the most horrific tortures in the Nazi regime. His
| conclusion was that the ones who survived where the ones that had
| something to live for. Hope you find your purpose! AMGD
| rrradical wrote:
| Some people are happy enough living through an 'I' perspective (I
| have this, I have that). Some people can't be happy with that,
| and look for happiness through success as some kind of 'we' (we
| as a family, we as a community, we as a race or gender or class
| or followers of a religion, we as a nation, we as a species, we
| as a planet). Or maybe some other moral formulation.
|
| Certainly the easy path, if you can stomach it, is to satisfy
| yourself with personal material success. But you might need
| something else. Congrats, you're human.
| d--b wrote:
| No this is not the dream.
|
| You're still in debt. You still owe society a lot of work. You
| want to finish paying the mortgage, send your kids to uni and
| start something without putting everything at risk.
|
| Keep working. Keep working.
|
| This is the american dream. Work does not liberate you from work.
| It allows you to set enough aside to retire all right.
|
| The only way to get more is to risk more. These are the rules of
| the game. You could have had family money, but sadly you don't so
| you have to risk that comfy situation to try and gain your
| financial independance.
|
| It's effed up
| derwiki wrote:
| Yes the mortgage is a debt, but whatever it bought is the asset
| that balanced it out. You could sell the house, recoup your
| equity, and poof! no more debt.
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| I don't really understand this mentality.
|
| At no point in human history, anywhere, has a life if easy
| idleness been a part of the deal.
|
| The way I see it there's two choices. You can either work in a
| comfortable society with food at the supermarket, water in your
| pipes, and a roof over your head, or you can work in a harsh
| society struggling against nature every single day for food,
| water, and shelter.
|
| Yes there are people in our society who basically don't work
| because they have so much money. It's unfair that some people
| have to labour physically while others can do nothing and claim
| the value of the people who work for them.
|
| Even if we did create a society where everyone could afford to
| be idle every day, someone would have to produce the food.
| Someone would have to mine the resources to produce the
| luxuries we enjoy. Someone would have to produce the
| luxuries... You see where I'm going.
|
| Idle, easy lives are not the baseline to compare against.
|
| They are the absolute ceiling of privilege.
| glouwbug wrote:
| Never in history has a commoner lived better than any of the
| feudal kings. Your average work from home yuppie has access
| to a warm home, door dash, video games, and online dating;
| betterments no longer akin to that of a king in their castle
| with their serf'd up veggies, lamely jesters, and brothel
| mismanagement and inbreeding.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgKWNcs_20g
| goodpoint wrote:
| Absurd.
|
| Never in history the world had the wealth and technology
| that exists now.
|
| And yet your average work from home "yuppie" still has to
| work 40 hours a week doing SEO or fiddling with YAML to
| make some billionaire more rich.
|
| "door dash" does not give meaning to your life and
| ultimately you'll not be happy if you feel you live as a
| cog in an unnecessary company making an unnecessary
| product.
|
| And if that's not enough, feudal society was not destroying
| the planet.
|
| So no, having video games and online dating are not enough.
| But the technoptimism of HN seems to be an untreatable
| disease at this point.
| glouwbug wrote:
| Good point
| aqme28 wrote:
| This makes me think of Anthony Bourdain, the man who had probably
| the most envied job in the world, but still suffered from
| depression and took his own life.
|
| A perfect job does not prevent or cure depression.
| kuramitropolis wrote:
| Nice turn of phrase.
|
| >A former user of cocaine, heroin, and LSD, Bourdain wrote in
| Kitchen Confidential of his experience in a SoHo restaurant in
| 1981, where he and his friends were often high. Bourdain said
| drugs influenced his decisions, and that he sent a busboy to
| Alphabet City to obtain cannabis, methaqualone, cocaine, LSD,
| psilocybin mushrooms, secobarbital, tuinal, amphetamine,
| codeine, and heroin.[125]
|
| Well, a complex enough person, he was.
| Melting_Harps wrote:
| > A perfect job does not prevent or cure depression.
|
| > Well, a complex enough person, he was.
|
| I read Kitchen Confidential in 2008 when I was an undergrad
| and while working in catering; the truth is that that
| kitchens is where you will find some of the most broken and
| subsequently some of the most interesting people you will
| ever encounter. That sad reality is that substance abuse is
| often just a coping mechanism/self medication for unaddressed
| mental health issues.
|
| I felt Bourdain was suicidal when I read KC back then, and to
| be honest when he killed himself I was on my last tour in
| kitchens and I was the only one not entirely shocked or
| surprised.
|
| His life was marred with lots of demons, and his success was
| enviable for anyone who has ever worked line, but he could
| never get away from that simple fact. Roadrunner was
| interesting, but sadly entirely woeful because it reminded me
| how much progress was lost because the entire culinary
| industry was riding on just him and all the media attention
| he could garner. There were many lost projects that will
| never come to fruition, and to me that is was I feel was the
| real loss.
|
| He as a person probably wanted to die this way his whole
| life, so I can't see why anyone would feel sorry for him.
| WJW wrote:
| I wonder if his drug (ab)use was the cause or the result of
| his depression.
| benjaminwootton wrote:
| I used to be exactly the same, word for word.
|
| Then I did my own thing, sold a business, work only on projects
| that interest me etc as you are aspiring to do.
|
| Now I'm back in exactly the same situation, wanting more and
| being unsettled despite having a dream life on paper.
|
| It never ends. Think it's just the way some of us are wired!
| sapientiae3 wrote:
| It's never enough because you think external circumstances (your
| job, your income, your family) are responsible for your happiness
| - they are not.
|
| Being happy with the way it is has very little to do with your
| external circumstances and more to do with your internal
| disposition. That's why you can find people in all different
| kinds of circumstances that are happy.
|
| How to get there is a much longer discussion, but focusing on
| what's good and feeling grateful for those things is a start.
| 1270018080 wrote:
| I am seeing a lot of people on here suggest meditation, what is
| it supposed to do? Not to sound arrogant, but I feel like I'm
| "too smart" to meditate, like any mind games I play on myself are
| not going to work. My conscious thoughts aren't going to change.
| steve76 wrote:
| throwaway98797 wrote:
| start lifting, hire a trainer to do it right and safely
|
| see what your body can do, it is clear that your mind has
| accomplished a lot
|
| the contentment of a great workout is hard to beat
| jriot wrote:
| Great advice. I've done ultra marathons, powerlifting and
| strongman (open division). Knowing I'll never be the best and
| there is an upper limit I've created my own goal Project 15-50.
| Complete the big three lifts (squat, bench and deadlift) for a
| total of 1500lbs and run a 50 miler within a week, a three year
| goal.
|
| Though I do feel I need to see what my mind can accomplish. I'm
| a DS Manager (was an air traffic controller) but the role isn't
| technically difficult.
| angrysaki wrote:
| I find that personally this is a big one for me, except I spend
| my time road cycling. Depending on who you are the competitive
| aspect of group riding can be very enjoyable. (Different sports
| may be a better fit depending on who you are)
| thenerdhead wrote:
| Hey I'm you but a little younger. I'm writing a book about this
| called "Enough.".
|
| I think you're spot on with humans always wanting more. More
| money, more freedom, more relationships, etc.
|
| If you consider a buddhist idea of suffering being the attachment
| to that idea, you will always be feeling this way. Could you
| perhaps flip your attachment to become one of detachment where
| having less fills you up with immense joy and gratitude? What if
| you looked inward and realized that you are enough and always
| have been?
| SCAQTony wrote:
| Generally speaking, humans seem to want more, better. and
| different no matter how good we have it. Work is all about
| activity involving mental or physical effort to achieve a product
| or goal. It's not called fun, or play or sex. Perhaps if you
| created your own work, for your own self gratification you may be
| more fulfilled?
| OrangeMonkey wrote:
| Wanting to be more is the human condition.
|
| Don't dislike it, don't worry about it, just embrace it.
|
| This too is sacred.
| will5421 wrote:
| Do your own thing in a way that doesn't interfere with your job.
| Leave your job once it's making as much money as you need.
|
| Edit: If you want advice on how to do that, share details of what
| you want to work on and I'll try to help.
|
| Edit: You might not need to leave your job even once your thing
| is making as much money as you need.
| chrsig wrote:
| I'm in a very similar situation, almost identical, sans kids. I
| too have this 'struggle'. There's no solution, you're just
| experiencing life. You're at a stage where you're more safe than
| you probably had been in the past (I don't know about you, but
| the 2008 crash really set the tone for my young adulthood). I
| know I tend to think "I've finally arrived...now what?"
|
| Some combination of suggestion & things that've worked for me:
|
| 1) getting a therapist. They will be able to help you work
| through the feelings a lot better than anyone on HN.
|
| 2) don't try to be happy. You can't directly control how you feel
| like it were a light switch. Aim for contentment and create an
| environment where you're more likely to be happy. the harder you
| try to be happy the less likely it is to happen.
|
| 3) reduce your focus on work. work is a means to create an
| environment for you to be happy in. find things outside of work
| to pour your love and ambition into. Find other sources of
| validation than work
|
| 4) meditate -- and start with guided meditation of some form. do
| it regularly. it will help you cultivate yourself
| ishjoh wrote:
| I've had those feelings before and here is what helps me.
|
| Everyday I make a point of being thankful for something or
| someone. Maybe someone put extra effort in at work, maybe my kids
| were really well behaved, maybe I really enjoyed dinner, maybe my
| wife told me a really funny story. Whatever it is, big or small,
| I try to show my gratitude to people around me and to myself. At
| first I started by writing them down in a log, then at the end of
| the week I would look through them. This turned out to be really
| important to me, seeing the concrete instead of the abstract
| really changed my outlook.
| josefrichter wrote:
| Sounds like the job is technically interesting, but doesn't
| really have deeper purpose. Maybe find a job where you'd feel
| you're doing something meaningful?
| mikkergp wrote:
| A bunch of people have mentioned the hedonic treadmill, but I'm
| not actually sure this is it, though there's not enough
| information to know. Maybe it is? But your situation just
| seems... Normal.
|
| I guess it depends. I'm sort of in the situation you're in now. I
| think the question about the hedonic treadmill would be -- do
| you, in this happy house/wife/kids imagine another job where
| you'd be happier, a certain amount of money, a bigger house, a
| certain job title.
|
| Or on the other hand, do you just have dreams? I'm sort of in
| your position, good wife, good job, good salary, good house,
| kiddo on the way. And I am happy with all those things. And I
| dream about the same thing as you. Doing my own thing or retiring
| early to do other projects.
|
| I'm off the hedonic treadmill. I don't think a bigger house/more
| kids/more money will make me happier, but. Is "stability" really
| the only dream? I hope I never stop fantasizing about what could
| be in those real dreams I have. Making music, starting a company,
| traveling the world. There's a difference between having drive,
| and being dissatisfied with the good things in your life and
| wanting just a little bit more. If it's the latter. Well then
| yeah. I guess you're stuck, go listen to someone else :-P
| [deleted]
| bluedino wrote:
| Find something else to do that isn't work. Something you can look
| forward to leaving work for.
|
| My dad stacked boxes of pickles for 30 years. I don't remember
| him complaining about work to my mom, or to us. I don't think he
| even ever looked for another job. He just went to work and came
| home at the end of the day.
| rhodescorp wrote:
| My advice, develop a hobby; take-up martial arts/strength
| weightlifting. Focus on your body.
|
| As someone rapidly approaching my mid-30s who also has wife and
| young kids (and also in a similar position income wise), I feel
| this way as well from time to time.
|
| You need you time, outside of work, outside of family.
| ironlake wrote:
| There's a scene near the end of Chariots of Fire where Harold
| Abrahams confesses to an old friend that he's more afraid of
| winning the race than losing it. Winning the race means losing
| his purpose. Contrast with the other racer in the story, Liddell,
| a devout Christian who races for God's glory. His purpose
| transcends any wins or losses on earth.
|
| It's an ancient problem. (I'm not suggesting that you embrace
| religion. Just an example.)
|
| In my experience, no matter how much I want a job, after about
| five years I'm ready to quit.
| MentallyRetired wrote:
| I think the average in my 24 year career in software is about 2
| years, maybe 2.5 tops.
| allenu wrote:
| That idea of "losing purpose" after winning the race is really
| interesting. I've often got caught up in external goals
| (praise, promotions, shipping an amazing product that everyone
| loves), and I've noticed that when I've accomplished them, or
| the external goals themselves disappear (project
| cancellations), I feel empty inside.
|
| Lately, I've been reading a book on resilience and one of the
| things it teaches is the Stoic-based idea of valued living.
| Basically, you list out your values and live your life in the
| service of those values and try not to focus too much on any
| external goals. (You can't control the outcome of those goals,
| but you can control your own behavior.)
|
| Whether you succeed or fail, it doesn't matter. What matters is
| living your values. Maybe that means crafting the best software
| you can, or being most helpful to others, or being a really
| great parent and partner. What it doesn't mean is "I will get
| 1st place in this race" or "I will get promoted" or "This
| product will make a lot of money".
|
| In the context of work, I also get bored after a couple of
| years at a job, and to be honest, a lot of that is based on
| external goals, either I've met them, or I just can't find any
| more.
|
| It's definitely hard not to think in terms of external goals in
| a corporate job, though, as the company will ask you to list
| goals for yourself for the year and the business itself
| requires meeting specific ones to succeed.
| gowld wrote:
| pacificat0r wrote:
| Cue in Talking heads - once in a lifetime
| jakobov wrote:
| I was in the same situation, but even better. I was making
| $350,000/yr, promoted to software architect of a 100 person team,
| was working on interesting problems, was well liked by everyone
| in the office, had lots of good friends at work, and only needed
| to work a few hours a day, was able to decide what projects I
| wanted to work on.... it was a dream.
|
| I quit to join a startup. Huge mistake. I quit the startup to
| take time off, its been 2 months.
|
| Now I am spending my time exercising, doing yoga, studying things
| I want to study and hanging out at cafes and travelling. But I
| was happier in the job.
|
| I don't have a solution, sorry. My best guess is understanding
| the hedonic treadmill, focusing on appreciating what you have and
| meditation (the mind illuminated is a good book). But hey thats
| just a guess. Maybe there is no solution, maybe evolution fucked
| us.
| taurath wrote:
| I found out why I wanted different things. Honestly it has been a
| lifelong journey to answer that question and finding the answer
| can be very complicated and not at all what you expect when you
| start, or it can take so long that it subsumes your life.
| closedloop129 wrote:
| Can you be happy while there are still people starving to death?
| As long as you have time to slow down and reflect on the state of
| the world, you either remember their pain, or you suppress the
| memory and thus distort your happiness.
|
| The trick is to work more. Buy a boat or a horse.
| krnaveen14 wrote:
| The Loneliness of a pretty good developer
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31438426
| akhmatova wrote:
| Because it's work, that is to say, "muck" and it never feels the
| same as doing one's one projects or just hanging with one's
| family. Which is why, unlike those pursuits, it converts, almost
| like a liquid, into money. Which, in turn, converts into time --
| to spend with one's family now, or to work on one's projects some
| fine day in the future.
|
| Or that is: in theory, to exactly what you are most interested in
| after all -- or a close proxy to it.
|
| _How did you settle and slow down and become happy with the way
| it is without always wanting more?_
|
| Others posting here seem to have better answers on the broader
| philosophical front. But raw in raw practical terms, you can
| start by acknowledging, every day, just how lucky you are that
| you (1) have a family and (2) unlike many in this industry,
| genuinely don't seem to give a flying F that you are making
| merely "over 100k" (when we are told we all should be making 300k
| after a few years, and shouldn't be working at all after 10 years
| or so in this industry).
|
| Very lucky indeed.
| philote wrote:
| I'm in a very similar situation, and I don't think it's the
| "hedonic treadmill" as others have suggested. I believe the key
| here is you saying "I dream about doing my own thing or retiring
| early to do other projects.".
|
| I, personally, have a ton of different interests, yet have to
| spend most of my time doing only one (my job). I also help around
| the house, spend time with my wife and kids, etc. But that means
| very little time to pursue most of my interests (and when I have
| time, I don't always have the energy). I don't think you're
| wanting "more" in general, just more freedom to do other projects
| that interest you.
|
| I know I personally yearn for the day I can retire and work on
| whatever I want. Unfortunately I won't be retiring early, so I'm
| doing all I can now to make sure I can retire comfortably and
| have the money I need to allow me to pursue my interests. To help
| in the meantime, I'm acknowledging each little victory towards
| that goal and also trying to organize/automate other things in my
| life to allow me to have more time now.
| SCUSKU wrote:
| I recently experienced something very similar. I became really
| depressed and sought therapy and psychiatric help. Medication
| helped get me out of my slump, and then therapy helped me work on
| the toxic mentalities that I had. I was able to talk through it
| and realize that I was attaching all my self worth to my job and
| achievements at work, which are very fleeting. So, I learned to
| compartmentalize my work as work, and started doing other things
| that weren't just about making money. I found that volunteering
| by picking up trash has been a great start for me. I am now
| working on becoming a computer teacher/aid for seniors. I realize
| now that I have my life squared away, it's time for me to help
| others, which is much, much more fulfilling than only caring
| about myself.
| jacobmarble wrote:
| I've been right where you are. Something was still off. I started
| digging. Now, I'm much happier.
|
| - read stoicism, start anywhere, keep reading
|
| - check in with a counselor
|
| - consider your relationship with "god" -- is it fake? Step up or
| step back.
|
| - get a hobby; here are mine: real estate, woodworking, software
| projects, private pilot, ham radio
| xur17 wrote:
| > here are mine: real estate, woodworking, software projects,
| private pilot, ham radio
|
| Apologizes since this is slightly off topic from the rest of
| the thread, but: any chance I could bounce some questions off
| you about the process of getting a private pilot's license? I
| took an "intro" flight, and have started studying towards the
| written test, but I have a few questions that I would love to
| ask.
|
| My email is in my profile - let me know if there's a good way
| to reach out to you.
| josh33 wrote:
| I appreciate the thoughtfulness and introspection in your
| question.
|
| I have found that different types of activities bring me
| joy/energy/fulfillment, and others do not. Identifying which
| activities do this for me took a few years of thought, coupled
| with asking people who know me well about what they observe. I
| realized about 10 years ago that I'm most fulfilled when I'm
| teaching - literally leading a formal learning session with
| students. I find opportunities to do some of this in my work (I'm
| a co-founder with tons of autonomy in my role), but ultimately
| I've decided that my job is the means to open up more doors to
| teach. I'm getting an MBA to open the door to be an adjunct
| professor in business.
|
| I share this because once you know what activities bring you
| joy/energy/fulfillment, you can rearrange your life to maximize
| how much time you spend doing those things.
| achillesheels wrote:
| I do always want more, but more of what I have been pursuing, to
| which I have been content in the incremental progress.
|
| But show much of that progress is towards activities which
| transcend the work day. It is my personal deviation from "heroic
| materialism" that has made me a much more enlightened man.
| chrisbrandow wrote:
| A perfectly fulfilling job will rarely lead to me completely
| fulfilling life.
|
| A robust web of relationships at varying levels of intimacy
| certainly correlates with fulfillment.
| kelseyfrog wrote:
| You've gotten some answers, some of them good, but I haven't seen
| this one yet and it changed my life.
|
| You can accept that this feeling is normal - that your hunger for
| something more is insatiable, that this is just how things are
| and to accept it. That's one way to view it, sure, but do you
| really want to package that feeling up, box it, and push it away?
| You might push it so far down you lose sight of it and forget
| about it entirely. This can work for some, but these things have
| a habit of popping back up later in life with much more veracity.
| It can fester like a splinter in your mind.
|
| What so many people are suggesting is foreclosing[1] on figuring
| out what you want. What gives your life meaning is completely
| aligned with figuring out what you want and who you are. You're
| in a great position to do just that - many people in recent years
| have found themselves in exactly the same position and
| reevaluated their lives.
|
| To do so, understand that finding your own meaning involves both
| a high degree of exploration and a low degree of certainty. When
| you find it, you'll know because you will feel a low degree of
| exploration and a high degree of certainty. Exploring what you
| need is a process of making hypotheses, trying them out, and
| evaluating their effects on yourself. Do they make you feel
| satisfied with your life, or do they leave you wanting more? If
| they leave you wanting more, keep exploring. You don't have to
| foreclose.
|
| 1. Marcia, J. E. (1980).
| hgs3 wrote:
| > I dream about doing my own thing or retiring early to do other
| projects.
|
| Do you already do your "own thing" now after work and on
| weekends? If not, then it probably is a case of thinking the
| grass is greener.
|
| Speaking only for myself, I would come home from work and pursue
| my passions everyday, night, and weekend until exhaustion. I quit
| my job two years ago to pursue my passions full time and -
| although I'm not making money yet - I am consistently happy and
| fulfilled with my work.
| emadabdulrahim wrote:
| It's funny how you asked a question for people to share their
| personal stories of how they may have overcame the feelings of
| "never enough" that you have, but most people are just giving
| advice. As if they really know the person they're giving advice
| to.
|
| IMO the insight, self-awareness, or revelation you may be seeking
| would most likely come from a conversation where you have space
| to think, reflect, be asked a lot of "Why" questions, and so on.
| cbreynoldson wrote:
| Take up a new medium for expression (e.g. drawing, painting,
| music, etc.). Don't just learn the ropes and play others' works,
| either. Try to put yourself and your thoughts, ideas, feelings,
| into the medium.
| nathanaldensr wrote:
| You're sensing what I'd guess is spiritual emptiness. It could
| also be a lack of conflict, which in my opinion humans need to
| thrive. We all need conflict and challenges to overcome; imagine
| what the brains of people during 100,000 years of human evolution
| had to endure to survive.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| I think it's the boredom. Try to take some risks and see what
| happens.
| ja9393 wrote:
| yboris wrote:
| The most meaningful thing I've found in the world is to help
| others. But I think good intentions are not enough - it is
| important to care about how effectively you help others. So I
| recommend _Effective Altruism_ - a community of people working on
| making the world a better place while focusing on effectiveness
| of their actions.
|
| https://www.effectivealtruism.org/
|
| For over 10 years I've been giving at least 10% of my income to
| _cost-effective_ charities (see _GiveWell_ for recommendations
| https://www.givewell.org ). There are thousands of people doing
| the same, you should join in:
|
| https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/
|
| Finally, on the topic of happiness, read up on _Positive
| Psychology_ to learn how to extract more enjoyment / eudaemonia
| out of life. Start by reading books by Ph.D. researchers (e.g.
| _The How of Happiness_ , _Stumbling on Happiness_ , etc).
| Javantea_ wrote:
| Can you give any advice on how to get in the right mindset to
| give significant part of your income to charity? Or did you
| have no trouble deciding that? I understand how fortunate I am,
| but I cannot convince myself to give.
| amotinga wrote:
| check out maslow pyramid of needs. you're on level 3. for me it
| goes something like:
|
| 1. body - food, water, shelter, sleep. check 2. safety - freedom,
| stability. check 3. love and belonging: friends & family. check
| 4. self realization: prestige, respect, achievements.. ????
| that's your next step. 5. the dream: full complete realization of
| ones potential.
|
| read up on this thing, check it out.
|
| also maybe useful questions to ask:
|
| 1. how is my last month going to look like - how do I wanna die.
| invision it. 2. maybe think. what would you do if you only had
| week, month, year to live? maybe go do it? is it realy impossibly
| to do while paying mortgage? chances are it isnt.
|
| also, maybe list things you like about yourself and things you
| dont like. wanna work on those you dont like?
| bostonsre wrote:
| You should work part time for some minimum wage job for a week or
| two. Maybe dishwashing or somewhere that you have to deal with
| people constantly like 7/11.
| sillysaurusx wrote:
| This is actually a lot harder to do than it sounds! Hiring
| managers will be suspicious of anyone overqualified, precisely
| because they know they won't be there a few weeks later.
| bostonsre wrote:
| Hrm.. maybe stick to small businesses so they have no hiring
| manager and jobs that require little to no training?
| Dishwashing for a small restaurant could be ideal. It is a
| miserable job, but can be picked up pretty quickly.
| mooreds wrote:
| Some advice from someone a bit further down the career path:
|
| * If you want to try something, try it! Save up some runway, do
| your own thing. Try some other projects right now, don't wait.
| (You won't be able to devote full time effort to them, but can
| still make progress.) You may find that what you dream about
| isn't all that, or maybe it is. Either way you can take steps
| forward.
|
| * I learned to be happy with my life after I'd taken a few
| alternative paths. Nothing like jumping to a situation, realizing
| it wasn't what you thought it was, and then jumping to a
| different situation, then realizing it wasn't all that great,
| then jumping to a different situation... After I did this a few
| times, I learned that I needed to create happiness where I was,
| not try to find it elsewhere. YMMV.
|
| * It is a cliche, but kids are only young once. Enjoy that time.
| gffrd wrote:
| > Try some other projects right now, don't wait.
|
| YES. Not "this weekend" or "when things open up a bit," do it
| _now_. The river won 't part for the stone voluntarily, you
| need to jam it in the water ...
|
| Also, if you can: merge bullet 1 & 3. Try something new with
| your kids. Learning and exploring together is an amazing
| experience.
| rhodescorp wrote:
| +1 to this. Leverage whatever hobby/passion you are planning
| to do and use it as a bonding and teaching/learning
| experience with your children. They will forever value it.
|
| If you want a laundry list of things to start getting into:
|
| - Becoming handy, teach your kids as you do it so they have
| that life skill. Being considered handy simply is a mindset -
| do you have the confidence to figure something out via some
| google searching etc....
|
| - Martial arts - I took Ju-jitsu for 4-5 years and I can tell
| you martial arts appeals to software engineers - its highly
| technical which engages your brain, yet very physical which
| is an area we swe's hardly ever get to use.
|
| - strength training - will increase your energy - physique -
| and some other passive benefits for your relationship - also
| something you can get into with your kids and help teach them
| healthy habits.
|
| - cooking - save money and eat some tasty food - a good
| cookbook I swear by is America's Test Kitchen Cookbook - they
| cook things 20 different ways and explain why they settled on
| a particular approach - along with good explanations of
| cooking techniques
| aidenn0 wrote:
| > * It is a cliche, but kids are only young once. Enjoy that
| time.
|
| I don't know if I'm wired differently, but my oldest kid is in
| HS and my youngest is halfway through elementary school, and
| while I didn't hate the time I spent with my kids, I don't feel
| like I derived a whole lot of personal enjoyment out of it.
|
| I still would make the same decision -- feeling loved and cared
| for rather than abandoned is a great gift to any child -- but
| with a lot of the "milestones" in life it seems to me that a
| lot of the benefit to doing these things is not staying up late
| at night wondering if things would have been better had I not
| missed out...
| buscoquadnary wrote:
| It's one of those things that pays out over time, and 20
| years from now because you invested your time in your
| children you'll be able to enjoy them and grandchildren much
| more than anything else you could've done.
|
| As a good quote I heard once said "No success can compensate
| for failure in the home"
|
| jobs come and go, achievements are eventually forgotten, and
| wealth doesn't last forever, but your family will be pretty
| constant.
| cam0 wrote:
| Thanks for sharing your perspective. I find it rare for
| parents to share the non-glowing reviews, and it's refreshing
| to hear.
| perfectjob wrote:
| I pretty much optimized my life around my young kids. That's
| why I got a remote job (before covid) and only work four days.
| I genuinely believe it will be the best investment in my
| lifetime, and I will look back and be proud I made that
| decision.
|
| > I learned that I needed to create happiness where I was, not
| try to find it elsewhere
|
| I fully agree, but it's really hard to do so even if you know
| that's the right way.
| mooreds wrote:
| > I fully agree, but it's really hard to do so even if you
| know that's the right way.
|
| Yes! I agree it isn't easy to do this and I struggle daily,
| but haven't found a better path.
|
| Certainly alcohol, partying, entrepreneurship, clubs, sports,
| travel, and adventure (the main paths I've tried) haven't
| succeeded in providing immediate happiness without effort on
| my part. (They all had their good aspects, don't get me
| wrong, but nothing intrinsically made me happy all the time
| and I was always left wondering "what's over there".)
| mattgibson wrote:
| > It is a cliche, but kids are only young once. Enjoy that
| time.
|
| This. So many times over. Everything else can be done later or
| slowly. Don't miss the good bits!
| whoomp12342 wrote:
| the fact that you wrote all this down tells me you are well on
| your way to practicing gratitude. Being mindful of all the things
| in your life that are going well goes a long way towards mental
| health
| perfectjob wrote:
| It is a goal of mine this year to practice gratitude. I started
| writing it down in a journal, and it feels powerful. A lot of
| emotions come out of it, good ones. I hope it will help me slow
| down a little.
| [deleted]
| streetcat1 wrote:
| You work too little. You equate minimum work with a dream job?
| Its too easy.
| willhslade wrote:
| You are describing the hedonic treadmill. Essentially, you become
| used to your surroundings, and while they are objectively great,
| from the perspective of inside your own head, this is now normal
| and you / your monkey mind wants more.
|
| There have been a lot of post floating around the internet with
| various solutions, the most popular being Stoicism > Positive
| Psychology / Happiness research > Buddhism / Meditation. I've
| dabbled a little in all of them and they all have something to
| offer.
|
| Essentially, you are experiencing a disconnect between how it
| feels to be you and how you expected to feel. As someone only a
| little older than yourself, I would say this: your job will never
| love you back, and especially in the software realm, it may not
| be as fulfilling as something like woodworking or therapy. It
| does pay the bills, though.
|
| The above mentioned happiness research / positive psychology
| suggests that having multiple, meaningful social roles that you
| can fulfill outside of work will allow you to shoulder more
| responsibility and find meaning in your life.
|
| What I'm trying say is that in the second half of life, it is our
| job to give back. So start there.
|
| Also, this is in my morning bookmarks to revisit:
| https://old.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/comments/so6e8h/engine...
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Correct. It works in reverse too.
|
| Anecdote: As I deployed to Afghanistan from my duty station on
| Okinawa things got progressively shitty. Okinawa -> Manas:
| Living conditions suck but they have a decent chow hall. Manas
| -> Camp Leatherneck: Crappy living, crappy chow. Camp
| Leatherneck -> FOB: wow this sucks. FOB -> combat outpost: holy
| shit this sucks! How am I gonna do 7 months of this?!
|
| I did. Got used to it. Was actually kind of fun after awhile.
| Then after deployment you do it in reverse and feels like being
| upgraded to better and better luxury.
|
| Soon enough you're used to it and living in the barracks on
| Okinawa sucks again.
|
| Point being that you adjust to living conditions- good or bad.
| Don't derive purpose from chasing more because you'll always
| adjust to whatever you attain.
| mym1990 wrote:
| No sure why you're getting downvoted, this makes sense.
| Humans are incredibly good at adapting to environments. From
| your perspective, it sounds like a change of pace kept things
| interesting.
| ilololed wrote:
| This is what I always tell the chronically ill. Just get used
| to it stupid! It's the hedonic treadmill.
| salmonfamine wrote:
| There's obviously quite a bit of complexity here. Huge
| difference between being terminally ill and getting used to
| some bad conditions for a finite period.
| kevmo314 wrote:
| > Don't derive purpose from chasing more because you'll
| always adjust to whatever you attain.
|
| I'd rephrase this, or at least maybe this is what the intent
| was: it's not that bad to derive purpose from chasing more
| but it's probably bad to derive purpose from attaining.
| There's nothing wrong with being ambitious as long as the
| journey is how you derive purpose.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Yes, that's exactly it.
| enduser wrote:
| Also: chasing less has the same effect
| bladegash wrote:
| Hah, slightly off topic, but I was there from 09-10 and
| remember that same journey from MCBH -> Manas -> Leatherneck
| -> COP -> Patrol Base.
|
| I honestly think Leatherneck may have been the worst out of
| that experience. Some of the best times were having nothing
| on a PB for 10+ months (we were there for an extended
| period).
| metadat wrote:
| Friendlier, less user-hostile link:
|
| https://old.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/comments/so6e8h/commen...
|
| (The main site goes to great lengths to force registration,
| even hiding the content after a few seconds (!) when a mobile
| user-agent is detected)
| willhslade wrote:
| Thanks, updated my post. I'm usually logged in in the classic
| site so I didn't think what it would be like for others.
| bo0tzz wrote:
| I've been using this[1] plugin (made by a friend) for years
| now to get around this issue.
|
| 1: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/reddit-
| fixer/boahh...
| metadat wrote:
| Yes, these are popular, although unfortunately they don't
| help the most abused clients: mobile users. Anyhow, this is
| off-topic. Reddit is an ungrateful, rent-seeking gatekeeper
| of UGC, news at 11.
| 0000011111 wrote:
| I would like to add two other ways to get off the hedonic
| treadmill for a bit.
|
| 1. Backpacking for a 1 week time period or longer. Living out
| of a backpack is a great way to help rest your brain terms of
| its standard perspective on what it thinks it needs to be happy
| in day to day life. Also, there are some nice places you can
| walk to with a backpack on that you can not drive to.
|
| 2. A Therapeutic mushroom trip - read how to change your mind
| by that hippy Berkley professor. This is not for everyone
| though. So proceed with caution.
| bavila wrote:
| I've done an extended backpacking trip (4 months). Probably
| took about a month before feeling like a truly therapeutic
| break. I don't think a week would have been nearly enough.
| heliodor wrote:
| There's also the angle that each day is the same as yesterday
| and the person doesn't feel like it's leading anywhere. It's
| the same as laying bricks for life or being a simple farmer. It
| puts food on the table but does nothing for the mind.
| hesdeadjim wrote:
| I think you drastically over-estimate how "fulfilling"
| something like therapy is. Day in and day out you will see
| people you desperately wish to help, who if they listened to
| 20% of what you offered would see their lives change immensely,
| only to watch them repeat the same behavior without change day
| in and day out. Worse, if you deal with depressed or addicted
| people it's just a matter of time before a client kills
| themselves.
|
| Grass is always greener, but we have it _easy_ in software and
| it 's good to remember that.
|
| All that said, I've been through the types of discontent that
| OP mentions. I've worked many interesting software jobs,
| started multiple businesses, failed many times, succeeded, made
| lots of money, shipped an indie game that was an expression of
| myself -- a dream come true, and at the end of it all...
| emptiness and a feeling of not-enough-ness (not depression!).
|
| If one does not find a philosophy that accepts this as reality
| at its core, you'll be chasing your tail until the day you die.
| I personally prefer Buddhism without the ceremonial pomp, and
| in that vein I'd recommend Noah Levine:
| https://www.againstthestream.com/dharma-talk-and-meditation-...
|
| Edit: 100% agree though that giving back to people is
| wonderful. Some of my best experiences have been the happiness
| in helping someone else succeed.
| hacksoi wrote:
| > shipped an indie game that was an expression of myself
|
| I've been trying to find games that are personal to the
| developer (I'm actually trying to make one now). What's the
| name of your game?
| HelloMcFly wrote:
| That Dragon Cancer is certainly one.
| hesdeadjim wrote:
| Send me an email at this temp address if you'd like to
| chat: pibig18709 at teasya dot com
| Pokepokalypse wrote:
| This is possibly true.
|
| I'm in my 50's now, and when I was in my 40's, my life-
| situation allowed me to pursue a lot more outside interests and
| hobbies. I had a lot of different outside activities, and would
| go out after work 4 nights a week with something different.
|
| A mass-layoff 5 years ago changed my circumstances in a lot of
| ways. I have another job - one that I love probably much more.
| But I relocated, and where I live now just doesn't have many of
| the same opportunities to do all the different things I used to
| do. And it's causing a lot of feelings of emptiness and
| burnout.
|
| Since I work remote, I'm planning on another relocation.
| mancerayder wrote:
| What was the main difference between the two locations?
|
| Are these major cities or more rural?
|
| I am thinking of a relocation to a less city-like environment
| but worry about the loneliness factor. The cities offer
| people, but less hobbies I'm interested in. City hobbies are
| mostly social and drinking oriented.
| jvanderbot wrote:
| For anyone interested, the above topics (Stoicism, positive
| psychology, budhism) are all nicely discussed in Happiness
| Hypothesis, by Jonathan Haidt.
| willhslade wrote:
| Which is an excellent book, thank you for pointing that out.
| hinkley wrote:
| Anecdotal evidence is that you can hack the hedonic treadmill
| by having interests outside of work. If nothing in your life is
| more challenging than work, then all of your yardsticks will be
| based upon it.
|
| If however you're comparing the relative pain of writing
| documentation to lifting a 40lbs bag of building materials,
| holding a position in yoga/martial arts class, running a half
| marathon, riding a century, hiking for six hours in a cold
| rain, then documentation really isn't so bad.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| I think this is why in part some successful artists, once they
| live in expensive mansions and have already gained access to
| every luxury, completely lose perspective in life and get into
| substance abuse, addictions, etc.
|
| Which is similar to what happened in the rat utopia experiment:
| https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-utopias-...
| asciimike wrote:
| > As someone only a little older than yourself, I would say
| this: your job will never love you back, and especially in the
| software realm, it may not be as fulfilling as something like
| woodworking or therapy. It does pay the bills, though.
|
| Reminded me of
| https://github.com/docker/cli/issues/267#issuecomment-695149...
|
| > I no longer build software; I now make furniture out of wood.
| The hours are long, the pay sucks, and there's always the
| opportunity to remove my finger with a table saw, but nobody
| asks me if I can add an RSS feed to a DBMS, so there's that :-)
|
| Relevant discussion of that thread:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24541964
|
| I think you summarized it well :)
| endymi0n wrote:
| I have observed over the years a tendency of people leaving
| software for something completely different (often something
| much more tangible).
|
| Maybe that's your beef, maybe not.
|
| My take on it is slightly different: It could very well be
| that instead of burnout, you are just missing purpose and
| meaning in your life. What is the legacy that you want to
| build for your kids?
|
| Don't despair. It's all good. Give yourself props for
| mastering all but the highest layer of Maslow's pyramid.
| You've achieved something most people on this planet never
| will.
|
| Onto the last one. Good luck with that!
| HelloMcFly wrote:
| > What is the legacy that you want to build for your kids?
|
| I think for some it's worth challenging the need for a
| "legacy" in the first place. This certainly is what helped
| my well-being, not feeling like I had to accomplish X or
| achieve Y for life to have been "worth it." I want to be
| kind, stay fed, and help others feel like things are OK
| which can be done through service both big and small. I
| guess it's about finding larger meaning in the smaller
| interactions vs. larger artifacts of legacy.
|
| I'm not entirely in love with how I've represented my
| thoughts on this, but hopefully the meaning is conveyed.
| MrDresden wrote:
| Being a software developer is but the initial larval stage.
| willhslade wrote:
| I didn't want to edit my original post, but this is also
| relevant to this discussion and came up recently. It echoes
| your observations.
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31724942
| https://whoisnnamdi.com/never-enough-developers/
| imdsm wrote:
| I remember the woodworking post, and think about it a lot.
| marincounty wrote:
| Aperocky wrote:
| For me, engaging in a sport that borders on meditation expanded
| my mind, I paddleboard around sunset/nights. This tremendously
| improved my mental state after being trapped inside for most of
| 2020.
| goodpoint wrote:
| The hedonic treadmill aspect is very relevant, but first we
| must wonder if perfectjob's work is fulfilling is its social
| value.
|
| perfectjob (the author) never said the current job is making
| the world a better place.
| sdfhdhjdw3 wrote:
| __seka__ wrote:
| What you describe seems to be a lack of setting a personal goal
| for yourself. A goal that gives you a sense of purpose and
| personal growth.
|
| Things you considered fantastic when you where younger are, of
| course, still fantastic (if not to you then certainly to somebody
| else). Once you achieved these things, you realized that many of
| these things are still very important but more similar to
| carrying a responsibility than providing a sense of fulfillment
| beyond this responsibility.
|
| It is probably fine to not have any meetings, but how many
| meaningful conversation do you have with people you care outside
| of your family (at the job, while enjoying a hobby, when talking
| to people in your neighborhood) on a regular basis?
|
| What is certainly human is to reflect on paths taken, to think
| about possibilities, to think about what could have been. This is
| natural but not necessarily very helpful. The key is not to live
| in the past or to live in the future... the key is to live in the
| present and learn to see and enjoy the good moments in life while
| they last.
|
| You wrote you have a good relationship with your wife and that
| you have healthy kids. Congratulations! You are blessed with
| something you can`t buy with money or status. Make the most out
| of it.
| [deleted]
| sarora27 wrote:
| I've felt this before. In fact, I end up in this position
| everytime I'm in a job where the company is larger than 200
| folks, the goals are corporate, and there never seems to be an
| "end" to the work. I'd say it's easy to be disconnected from the
| impact you have on people when you're working a job.
|
| One thing I found that really helped was working on my own
| projects. The level of satisfaction you feel after directly
| helping someone (or multiple folks) solve a problem that's been
| bothering them (either in business or personal) can't be
| replicated from any job.
|
| Some people will say settle, or bring up hedonic treadmills or
| w/e but i would encourage you to start scratching that itch to do
| your own thing. Find folks who have a problem you think/know you
| can help them solve and then do it. Take the plunge and
| experience how it feels to help someone with something you built
| of your own effort and time.
| otikik wrote:
| Enjoy time with your children.
|
| Help others.
|
| Don't invent yet another crypto coin.
| skadamat wrote:
| I would check out Cal Newport's recent "Deep Life" philosophy /
| manifesto that he's been blogging & podcasting about.
|
| - https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2020/04/20/cultivating-a-dee...
|
| - https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2020/03/17/the-deep-life-som...
|
| He talks about building a life of your own choosing around the
| things that matter in some key buckets:
|
| - Craft: usually your day job - Community: volunteering,
| religion, family, whatever it is for you - Constitution: mental,
| physical health - Contemplation: matters of the soul (reading
| philosophy, following a religion if that's relevant, reflecting,
| etc)
|
| Also as many people have pointed out, the hedonic treadmill is
| real! There's nothing wrong with wanting to grow 1% in the core
| aspects of your life for the rest of your life. That seems like a
| life well lived to be honest!
|
| But if you can wake up every day, look at your deep life playbook
| that you defined, internalize your own definitions of the 4 C's
| and then abide by those definitions ... then you can end each day
| knowing that you're living a "deep life" and hopefully gain some
| internal silence and gratitude!
|
| Of course this is easier said than done :]
| joshcsimmons wrote:
| Are you spiritually engaged?
| foolinaround wrote:
| check out https://www.volunteermatch.org/ to find opportunities
| for you to give back. You will get a sense of fulfillment and the
| charities would be very grateful.
| burntoutfire wrote:
| A job is a prison. Yours is just very, very comfortable, compared
| to most jobs (and prisons). It's not wonder you still yearn to be
| out.
| com2kid wrote:
| > Most days, I do not have to interact with anyone from work, not
| even customer contact.
|
| The most satisfying job I had as an software engineer had me
| working side by side with other amazing engineers, the types of
| people who have Wikipedia articles about the stuff they've
| accomplished in life.
|
| Plenty of people work jobs earning less $ if they have an amazing
| group of people to work with. Sitting side by side with someone
| who is a catalyst for brilliance is worth a _lot_ , because it
| adds a lot to your level of personal fulfillment.
|
| > I work from home. My job is technically interesting, and I
| still learn/improve.
|
| How much do you improve? How hard have you stretched yourself?
| I've worked with people who made me go far beyond what I thought
| I could ever do. That was technically interesting. Learning how
| to read clock diagrams and calculate memory access latencies to
| see if my algorithms could even run, that was technically
| interesting.
|
| Working until 11pm at night listening to metal music sitting side
| by side with another engineer as we tried to write gesture
| recognition algorithms on a capacitive touch sensor that only had
| 6 pads (lol), that was interesting (and frustrating).
|
| Do I enjoy my 9-5 now? Sure. But it isn't satisfying. Pushing the
| industry forward is satisfying. Building foundational
| technologies is satisfying. Fighting tooth and nail to make
| technology do the impossible, that is satisfying.
| pen2l wrote:
| Here's some advice by Alan Watts:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4
| Javantea_ wrote:
| Step 1: Practice gratitude.
|
| Step 2: Consider taking the science of well-being course.
| https://www.coursera.org/learn/the-science-of-well-being
|
| Step 3: Find (or geek out in) a hobby that you can obsess about
| and that your friends and family can accept.
|
| Step 4: If you can't find out a path toward self-actualization,
| ask your employer or boss about ways that you can improve the
| business mission goals. In that path, you should find a path
| toward self-actualization and go for it.
|
| Step 5: Accept the excellent result you get because outcomes are
| very dependent on luck.
| frillkill wrote:
| I join, I am having exactly the same "problem".
| trevyn wrote:
| > I dream about doing my own thing
|
| If you're not doing your own thing, you're just someone's puppet.
| acuozzo wrote:
| > If you're not doing your own thing, you're just someone's
| puppet.
|
| Not necessarily.
|
| If you choose to have children when you don't really want them,
| then you're hardly their puppet if you're too principled to
| abandon them.
| svnpenn wrote:
| Just appreciate what you have. I was in a similar position, and
| took it for granted. I lost everything, now trying to scrape by
| with whatever I can get.
| infp_arborist wrote:
| The answer is always community.
| hprotagonist wrote:
| You sound kind of unconsciously lonely or self-centric here. I
| don't mean that as an insult, just as where your attention seems
| focused. You also sound a lot like me, so i'm almost certainly
| projecting a bit here...
|
| I have noticed that I am, eventually, not very interesting to
| myself, but the world is, and being "involved in mankind" has
| much to recommend it.
|
| Other people have made such observations.
|
| David Foster Wallace:
|
| _the so-called real world will not discourage you from operating
| on your default settings, because the so-called real world of men
| and money and power hums merrily along in a pool of fear and
| anger and frustration and craving and worship of self. Our own
| present culture has harnessed these forces in ways that have
| yielded extraordinary wealth and comfort and personal freedom.
| The freedom all to be lords of our tiny skull-sized kingdoms,
| alone at the centre of all creation. This kind of freedom has
| much to recommend it. But of course there are all different kinds
| of freedom, and the kind that is most precious you will not hear
| much talk about much in the great outside world of wanting and
| achieving.
|
| The really important kind of freedom involves attention and
| awareness and discipline, and being able truly to care about
| other people and to sacrifice for them over and over in myriad
| petty, unsexy ways every day.
|
| That is real freedom. That is being educated, and understanding
| how to think. The alternative is unconsciousness, the default
| setting, the rat race, the constant gnawing sense of having had,
| and lost, some infinite thing._
|
| Isaiah:
|
| _What I'm interested in seeing you do is: sharing your food with
| the hungry, inviting the homeless poor into your homes, putting
| clothes on the shivering ill-clad, being available to your own
| families.
|
| Do this and the lights will turn on, and your lives will turn
| around at once._
|
| I would suggest to you that you are feeling a call to service.
| It's worth answering not because it's "what you owe" or "because
| you have to", but because it keeps you alive and human. It's good
| in and of itself. It will delight and surprise you.
|
| And if you're anything like me, it'll keep you out of your head
| all the time. And then the light can come in.
| jti107 wrote:
| 1. take a vacation to a third world country...i've found it
| enormously helpful to see the world from outside of the western
| bubble. it helped me to appreciate what i had and to be grateful.
|
| 2. find a hobby or something you're interested in and master it.
| then teach other people about it.
| timwaagh wrote:
| At the end of the day a job where you only see your boss half an
| hour every two or three days and otherwise have no interaction is
| convenient but probably doesn't make you feel important. Better
| jobs are the ones where people listen to you. This is why you
| want to work for yourself. Only when people listen will your
| fragile ego will register that you matter. Otherwise retiring is
| probably better, then you can do what you please.
| robocat wrote:
| > I work from home
|
| Plenty of people have some level of need to be part of a group of
| people beyond the nuclear family. Some of those people don't seem
| to be very aware of the side effects of not having a group. Do
| you remember looking forward to going to school so you could be
| with your friends? (Cue tribal argument).
|
| The group itself probably doesn't matter so long as it is more
| than a couple of hours a week and not socially shallow - since
| you have kids perhaps something linked in with them?
|
| I think it would be worth the effort to try an experiment and see
| how you respond.
| nerdawson wrote:
| My situation is fairly similar.
|
| I picked up a side project which has been a bit of a double-edged
| sword. Something that as yet has no value consistently tugs at my
| attention throughout the day.
| dogman144 wrote:
| I think about this in a similar way. I think about where this is
| taking me.
|
| Route A - I'm 50, I am writing code and closing jira tickets, the
| permanent IC at big/tech corp. Intellectually interesting, I make
| a mass of money, massive waste of capabilities and social
| obligations. I'm a highly paid brainteaser solver, and that's
| what my life's efforts came to.
|
| Route B - I'm 50, I've shifted into EM, PM. I'm making a ton of
| cash, I'm on the right side of layoffs. It's interesting to bring
| products to market or pushing for CTO, but I'm hopping from
| ground breaking product to ground breaking product to.... can it
| all be ground breaking, really, when tech is the norm? Is that
| the end of my path?
|
| What joins both routes is a path to significnat financial
| stability and family life. For the rest of the plebs on the
| ground watching tech jobs (/s but let's be real, this industry is
| so relatively privileged), we and our levels.fyi are making
| stupid, stupid money with a great quality of life that doesn't
| exist in similar career paths that make similar money.
|
| With that anchor (a lot of money, a lot of family), that's my
| view of what my way out is, as in what is the final "what's
| next."
|
| 1) Lean into family. I can actually make all those baseball games
| and cook dinner at home. I have this hybrid model of the 1800's
| family homestead but with a lot better income. A lot of cool
| exploration in that direction is there that people go their whole
| lives foregoing to make the money to pay for that environment for
| their spouses and kids, but not themselves until retirement. Say
| what you want about days of yore, but one constant is compelling
| family models.
|
| 2) If you're careful for 10 years, you can buy your freedom to do
| whatever you want without financial destruction. Pay for your
| kids' college, buy a storefront and related equipment without a
| ton of debt, have $<a lot> net worth hidden away, and go open a
| bakery without much financial risk. Or move abroad. Or work on
| open source because you love tech... I'm not talking about FI/RE,
| but more about living a $150k/yr lifestyle on a $60k/yr income
| which is what all the cool jobs seem to pay. Totally achievable
| with tech income and planning.
|
| 3) Lean into a bit of spirituality. Especially working in tech,
| there isn't much provided room to consider how to live a good
| life beyond the bounds of strict rationality. Many people don't
| have the room because they're trying to hustle towards fractions
| of (1) and (2) in their life because they don't work in tech.
| IMO, that pure rationality not all that's out there. Humans have
| had a spiritual component in their life for centuries. Today's
| dynamic is an aberration, not the norm. Sure, churches did their
| fare share to drive away churchgoers. But what they provide is a
| necessary part of human existence that western life, capitalism,
| and general "freedom from" mindsets aren't helping answer -
| community, doing something without a profit motive/generosity,
| volunteering, ethical structure that isn't always "well its
| relative you see." If Jesus isn't your thing, well its not mine
| either. But if you look inside and around and feel like maybe
| something is missing, there is some there-there if you start
| looking in this direction. Replace your church with the local
| non-profit maybe.
|
| Honorable mention) There are base human brain-tickling impulses.
| Competition, love, fitness, family etc. For example, private
| sector can be rewarding if you're competitive - you can fully
| embrace that impulse, and keep competing/winning your whole life.
| I'm skeptical that there isn't some intrinsic value in following
| what that tickling impulse is for you, but you have to know
| yourself.
|
| Hope that helps!
| archibaldJ wrote:
| Take psychedelics and meditate together with your life-long
| partner and to discover some long neglected parts of your body
| and cells and sensors as you sense the universe
|
| As within so without
|
| As above so below
|
| It is through a greater discovery of your physical manifestation
| that you gain deeper Insight into the fabrics of reality
|
| What a wonder it is to be alive
|
| The present is a gift from the world
|
| Time is ephemeral. We all leave eventually. Before that, bring
| gifts into this world the way the world has upon you!
| julienb_sea wrote:
| I wouldn't dwell on how you "should" feel about your current
| situation. Reflect on what it is you value in life. Are you
| meaningfully fulfilling and working towards your values? If not,
| think about what aspects of your life are tangential or contrary
| to your values. It may be worth considering making a change in
| those areas.
|
| It's also important not to beat yourself up. It's normal to think
| about how things could be, and it's not easy to appreciate the
| things you have. These are normal human emotions and behaviors,
| and they are perfectly ok.
|
| I will mention, I think for the majority of people what you do
| for work is not the primary driver of life fulfillment. Work is a
| responsibility we take on, our societal contract to fulfill the
| needs of ourselves and our loved ones.
| thenoblesunfish wrote:
| Try to unask the question. These sorts of existential questions
| usually contain huge assumptions within them. Here, the obvious
| one is that the assumption that it's possible to feel "enough" in
| life. A very similar question is "What is the meaning of life?"
| To phrase it that way makes it seem like there must be an answer,
| like "what is the meaning of 'cat'?" These are not really
| questions - they are emotions. You don't answer emotions - you
| sit with them, you share them with those closer to you, you
| process them, you get some sleep.
| vanviegen wrote:
| > Most days, I do not have to interact with anyone from work, not
| even customer contact.
|
| You say that like it's a good thing. You may want to reconsider.
|
| Also, always have a project. Something to aim for for a couple of
| years that stands out from the rest of your life. It can be
| anything. Building a house, raising a small child, starting a
| company, diving deep into a hobby, switching to an entirely
| different line of work for some time (I enjoyed teaching!), etc.
|
| This may keep your inner adventurer happy, and makes for an
| interesting life to look back on.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Find meaning outside of your income source. Perhaps more time
| with family, or a hobby you enjoy, etc. Settling is a derogatory
| term for knowing what enough for you is.
| mxuribe wrote:
| > ...Settling is a derogatory term for knowing what enough for
| you is.
|
| Oof, this is a pretty profound statement!
| ge96 wrote:
| Feel this way with FAANG jobs and half mil comp. I feel bad that
| I make low six figs. It's funny. I live in MCOL too.
|
| Edit: flip side of this is the desire to hold onto things. Not
| easy to let go. Something bad could happen to a person anytime.
| gffrd wrote:
| Contentment doesn't come externally: you summit one mountain,
| only to see others in the distance. Once you've climbed the
| tallest, what do you conquer next?
|
| You're at the top of a mountain. You're in a great place. You can
| feel proud of this.
|
| You now get to choose a _new_ thing(s!) to conquer ... as others
| have mentioned, maybe it 's getting involved in an organization
| you believe in, maybe it's starting a project, heck maybe it's
| making pottery every day.
|
| The feeling of satisfaction/"enough" is important to feel: you're
| becoming aware that you have more ambition/ability in the tank
| ... but don't let it boss you around: use it to apply your
| attention to something you care about.
|
| There's an unlimited amount of "more" to want. You'll never be
| satisfied with it. It's not about "settling down" ... it's just
| that you've "solved" one part of your life well enough to be able
| to not worry about it for a while.
| neogodless wrote:
| You have assumed a strong association with things you've acquired
| or achieved with your source of satisfaction with life.
|
| You achieved the job and relationships you want, and you expect
| that to "take care of" your happiness.
|
| You'll have to unlearn this. It certainly doesn't hurt. In fact,
| it really sets you up to have all the resources you need to learn
| what really does satisfy you in life. You have the needs met, and
| the support group you care about, and that cares about you.
|
| But there's always new projects to try, new skills to develop,
| new areas of knowledge to learn.
|
| Try things, and see if they give you short-term joy and longer
| term satisfaction. See if there are activities you're happy to do
| over and over, so that you're not bound to the rewards of
| novelty. See if certain active hobbies require a long time to
| master, and if you enjoy that process.
| skilled wrote:
| Have you tried taking risks in life? Sounds like you enjoy being
| left to your own devices, so why not try solo travel in a remote
| region? South America and places in Southeast Asia can be really
| fun to do alone.
|
| You might even end up in situations which will untangle you from
| work or as you call it "the perfect job", and I can say from
| experience it is extremely liberating.
|
| And you will meet a lot of people along the way, too.
|
| This sounds like the perfect solution for you also as you said
| you work from home.
| chefandy wrote:
| >> I have a house, a good relationship with my wife, and young
| and healthy kids.
|
| > why not try solo travel in a remote region? South America and
| places in Southeast Asia can be really fun to do alone.
|
| Sounds like the risky solo intercontinental travel portion of
| this guy's life has elapsed. Doing this when you're single and
| 25 is adventurous. Doing this when you're married with kids and
| a homeowner is a midlife crisis, even if being 35 makes it an
| early one. Leaving the responsibility of raising the children
| and running the household to his wife while he goes on
| adventures to sate his restlessness would be pretty self-
| absorbed.
| skmurphy wrote:
| Your job is giving you enough to live on ad time to spend on
| other things. Focus on giving your children the best start in
| life by spending time with them now. They are only young for a
| brief time, and you cannot go back and undo neglect later.
|
| I was fortunate to be able to work from home when my boys were
| young, and I learned a lot (See
| https://www.skmurphy.com/blog/2014/07/27/things-i-have-learn... )
| and have good relationships with them now that they are in their
| late 20's. I have acquaintances who did not put in the time and
| now regret it. Their children and grandchildren are not in their
| lives.
| elif wrote:
| I was there 5 years ago. My psychology was getting worse by the
| month as everything I did seemed more and more futile.
|
| I quit my job, travelled to some bucket list destinations like
| Japan, Fiji, Galapagos, machu piccu, then went on a 5 month
| backpacking trip across both islands of New Zealand with my
| (ridiculously) supportive wife. I immersed myself the whole time
| in zen philosophy and tried to lose my egocentric placement in
| the universe.
|
| It was a great reset for my depression, but did nothing to erase
| the fundamental feeling that all of reality and my actions within
| it are pointless.
|
| For the first year I took my passion projects seriously, devoting
| almost a full work week of attention to them. At a certain point,
| I stopped those too. I realized I was merely creating my own
| flavor of the distractions I'd tired of.
|
| Now the only things that bring me real joy are improving my home
| environment, the health of my family, and getting out in the sun
| and playing sports. That kind of "out there, just around the
| corner" abstract life satisfaction I was chasing seem as
| ridiculous to me now as participating in US politics. It is all
| ephemeral.
| tcbawo wrote:
| My conjecture is that happiness will not be found by a job
| switch. Having a stable job that gives you the money and enough
| time to pursue your life's passions is very valuable. I think
| an artist with a day job would be happier than an artist that
| scrapes by selling their art. Quitting a well paying job that
| provides free time _right away_ adds unnecessary lifestyle
| pressure. My advice is to find and foster your passions outside
| of work before making career changes, then reorient your life
| with renewed focus.
| badRNG wrote:
| > but did nothing to erase the fundamental feeling that all of
| reality and my actions within it are pointless
|
| There may not be some cosmic teleology for your life, but that
| doesn't mean it's pointless; it just means you have a clean
| slate for deciding what you want that point to be.
|
| I think embracing the absurdity of existence can be liberating.
| elif wrote:
| We can all choose the games we wish to play. Just don't take
| them seriously.
| pjdkoch wrote:
| > I realized I was merely creating my own flavor of the
| distractions I'd tired of.
|
| Bam. Right in the kisser. This is the essence of it.
| burntoutfire wrote:
| I've had pretty similar path (minus the long exotic trip). I've
| also pursued personal projects and interests very seriously,
| only to find out that I don't know why I'm doing them really. I
| found that I'm most satisfied with hedonic/epicurean lifystyle:
| hanging out with friends, spending time outside, cooking,
| reading, playing some of my favorite games. Even a job is not
| that bad, given how easy we can have it in the software
| profession. I guess any interests and ambitions I had were
| imprinted on my by external capitalist pressures, and I only
| realised that when I no longer had to run on the threadmill
| (I'm leanFIRE already).
| ebolyen wrote:
| Disclaimer, I am not an expert in these fields, and while I have
| some academic-ey looking references, the references are also on
| the periphery of their respective fields, so like.. big grain of
| salt, maybe several.
|
| ---
|
| You can't, but you don't have to "want more" in the same
| "direction".
|
| I think this article by Nathaniel Travis gives a lot of insight
| into the human condition with a remarkably simple premise:
|
| [1] https://nathanieltravis.com/2022/01/17/is-human-behavior-
| jus...
|
| The reason we can't ever be entirely satisfied is our fundamental
| control loop cannot consider scale (and for good reason if you
| think about it for a few minutes). So no matter how good things
| are, you will always sensibly consider how things could be
| better, no matter how little it would actually improve your day
| to day (if at all).
|
| Fortunately, it does seem we have some control over what it is we
| expect to gain, so I would suggest you start "tumbling"
| vigorously in ways that are not detrimental to your current life
| and you may come upon something that really sparks an interest
| (at least enough of one).
|
| I suspect there's also a darker parallel with these systems and
| give-up-itis, in which a lack of dopamine from the prefrontal
| cortex seems to cause stasis and eventually death or suicide as
| the basal ganglia loses the ability to perform self-directed
| activity (the control loop has shut down) [2]. This isn't
| entirely different from a bacteria failing to find a gradient and
| simply waiting out the situation. But from our highly derived
| perspective, waiting out a situation when we are the only thing
| that can create situations is not a useful feedback loop.
|
| [2]
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030698771...
| Jamie9912 wrote:
| You need 3 things in life:
|
| Something to do Someone to love Something to look forward to
|
| (I think you might be missing the last point)
| AlbertCory wrote:
| The people telling you to try stuff NOW, rather than later: 100%.
| Do not think "when I'm retired, I'll have time for this."
|
| I'd always felt bad that I didn't practice and become a great
| guitar player in my teens and play in bands, like the guys I
| admired (and let's not even talk about the famous rock stars). So
| around age 40 I started singing, and then I took piano lessons. I
| got to be in choruses in some operas and operettas. Was this
| _exactly_ my fantasy? No, but I at least got some proficiency,
| and got to perform in front of people who paid for it.
|
| I found it wasn't all _that_ great, for me, which I probably
| would have discovered in my 20s. But now I don 't have that
| regret anymore. I did it.
|
| Same for traveling: I've been to 26 countries. Coincidentally,
| travel sucks with COVID, so I couldn't do that now even if I
| wanted to. People who say "we'll travel when we retire" are
| kidding themselves. When you're in your late 60s, all you'll be
| up for is a cruise with other 60-somethings. Boring! And that's
| if you're even healthy enough.
|
| I won't comment on all the other suggestions: therapy,
| meditation, helping others, your kids. Not that there's anything
| wrong with them, but hey -- I don't have _all_ the answers for
| you.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Bill Withers[1] is my hero for this. He enlisted in the Navy at
| 17 and while in the Navy found an interest in music. Left the
| navy at 27 and (while working a day job) recorded his first
| song at 29, with his first hit at 31 (The Grammy winning _Ain
| 't no Sunshine_). At 45 he retired, citing creative differences
| with his label as the reason.
|
| 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Withers
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Never knew that about him.
| mouzogu wrote:
| watch some documentaries about third world poverty.
|
| people working 12 hours a day inside a 50 foot mine that could
| collapse any moment for $1-2.
| jerednel wrote:
| Because life is intrinsically frustrating and everything is
| impermanent including the satisfaction you derive from material
| gains. The only way to escape is to stop seeking happiness
| externally.
| khazhoux wrote:
| > But somehow, it isn't. It's never enough. It is probably human
| to always want more.
|
| The passionate college runner dreams of making the Olympic team
| -- just to be on the team would be enough. The first-time
| Olympian dreams of standing on the podium -- bronze would be
| enough. The bronze medalist is upset he lost to silver by .1 sec.
| The silver medalist rages that he came so close -- _so close!_ to
| having it all. The gold medalist wonders if he 'll ever win gold
| again.
|
| No one is ever satisfied. (fine, there are some exceptions -- I
| tip my hat to them).
|
| All the advice below of quitting to do your own thing is (most
| likely) baloney. Down that path is just loss of wages and all the
| associated stress and opportunity costs. Again, there are
| exceptions, and congrats to them.
|
| Here's my advice: You're doing great -- stop whining! I mean that
| in the friendliest way possible. This is what winning at life
| feels like. It doesn't feel like winning.
| borroka wrote:
| No one is ever satisfied, largely true, but there is
| dissatisfaction that leads to action (I see myself out of shape
| --> I exercise), and dissatisfaction that leads to sadness,
| depression, feelings of unworthiness (I see myself out of shape
| --> I cry hugging a macaroni and cheese). If a romantic
| interest rejects you, how do you react? Do you cry and cry and
| feel the biggest loser on earth or you look around and tell
| yourself: there are other 10,000 potential romantic interests
| in this place?
|
| Dedicating oneself to something you want to accomplish, be
| better at, have fun with is always the answer. The answer, on
| the contrary, very rarely (never?) comes from deep
| introspection that inevitably ends with meaning-of-life
| question.
| freedom2099 wrote:
| What a sad life if you spend it not satisfied with what you
| have! Personally I am personally very satisfied with my life (I
| am 37yo) and I absolutely want no more... I have a nice job
| (pays well enough and is not boring most of the time and allow
| me enough free time), I have a wonderful marriage (happily
| together for 20 years), I have good friends and I live in a
| nice place (southern France on the riviera). I don't need more
| money (my Toyota brings me around as well as a Porsche), I
| don't need more responsibility nor challenges in my job (it
| would eat away my free time for family friends and hobbies)...
| furthermore my self worth is not tied to my job. My advice is
| to be content with what you have because because wanting more
| will only lead to unhappiness... ask why do you want more? What
| is the need you are trying to fulfill? Find out and work on
| that!
| kens wrote:
| Interestingly, bronze medalists are measurably happier than
| silver medalists. The theory is that the silver medalist is
| disappointed at not winning gold (as you say), but the bronze
| medalist is happy to have obtained any medal.
|
| https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/thoughtful-animal/why-b...
| perfectjob wrote:
| > This is what winning at life feels like. It doesn't feel like
| winning.
|
| That's a good one, and I might steal it one day :) And you are
| right.
|
| I should start working on my gratitude because I genuinely have
| everything you could ever wish for.
| elwell wrote:
| Paul's 2 cents:
|
| "But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought
| nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it.
| But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with
| that."
|
| 1 Timothy 1:6-8
| SnowHill9902 wrote:
| Are you religious? If not, why? Can you follow the religion of
| your parents?
| [deleted]
| dm319 wrote:
| I see people who 'arrive' at something they have been working
| towards often disappointed. You may have been working towards
| this state for longer than you realised. These states are usually
| defined by a list of things - they can be material, or more
| abstract. You've valued them up until now, but now you've
| realised they aren't great values, not worthy of life motivation.
|
| It doesn't mean they are bad things, and it doesn't mean you need
| to uproot your whole life to make yourself happy. But maybe you
| need to look around you, ser what you enjoy, what you think is
| important now.. What are your real values, and then your
| decisions in the future can help you lead a fulfilling life.
| nazgulnarsil wrote:
| it can't be enough because of the properties of the data
| structure you store your beliefs about self, other, and world in
|
| _hands you Buddhist pamphlet_
| AussieWog93 wrote:
| Do you get out much? For many men especially, most of your social
| contact comes from work.
| mat24a wrote:
| In the christian view earthly things will never statisfy us, as
| what we are seeking is the infinite. So only what is infinite can
| statisfy us, however there is only one such thing in existence:
| God.
|
| People who have not realized this or do not want to realize this
| will be stuck restless going from one thing to another. As St.
| Augustine famously put it: "You have made us for yourself, O
| Lord, and our heart is restless until it rests in you."
|
| As for practical advice I cant offer much exept that you should
| build an awarness of how much is given in your life. Your job,
| your wealth, your wife, your kids are all given to you and can be
| taken from you again at any moment. Especially your life is
| something you did not merit by your own actions at all, life was
| given to you and it will be taken from you without you having
| much of a choice in it.
|
| Obviously I recommend finding God, but there is no set
| "algorithm" for finding him. For some people its enough to be
| convinced intellectually, for some its not. I dont know you so I
| dont know what you would respond to. The only general thing I
| could say is that you should try to keep yourself open to God.
| juandjara wrote:
| Bro I'm 27 and I know as of now my job will probably never as
| satisfying as a I want. But is it a good job, I work with very
| interesting technologies, some interesting people and discover
| very interesting techniques, although the things I built is just
| some deluxe shit so some billionaires can be richer by exploiting
| a nicely painted set of data.
|
| But it is mostly an easy job. It pays the bills handsomely. And I
| can take what I learn and use to help the communities I
| participate in.
|
| Nothing will ever be perfect in that aspect and it shouldn't be.
|
| Working for other people is never going to be as good as working
| in your little side projects, because that's how our capitalist
| society works and that's what we have to live with. All we can
| hope is try to make it better every day.
| kinnth wrote:
| 36, I had this, I was running a design team of a successful
| startup who had just raised anound 2 million.
|
| I quit.
|
| I felt unfulfilled with the excitement and possiblity, because
| life for me lacked meaning. I studied how to be a yoga teacher,
| focussed on my body and not my mind. I changed my diet to be a
| lot more veg and I moved out of London.
|
| I have less money, less power, but feel happier. I just worked
| out that the grind wasn't for me and I enjoyed doing different
| simple things. I now work as a consultant 6 months of the year
| and take 6 months off.
|
| Do what feels right for you. Everything feels the way it does for
| a reason.
| javajosh wrote:
| You could try having an affair, and try to keep it from your
| wife. That will spice things up! I mean, you'll lose everything
| if you get caught, but what a rush!
| rhodescorp wrote:
| altdataseller wrote:
| It will spice things up for literally a few minutes and then
| you'll be even more depressed once your time is over.
| spockz wrote:
| There is a saying on the radio here. Cheating is like going
| to the McDonald's. A few nice minutes and a lifetime of
| regret afterwards. I don't know about cheating but I always
| regret eating at the MacDonalds.
| javajosh wrote:
| You confuse the act of sex with an affair. The former is
| mechanical. The latter is sordid, forbidden, hidden. I bet
| emotional affairs that involve no physicality at all present
| a much higher risk to a relationship than a drunken quickie.
| infinityplus1 wrote:
| Get good at something else which has competitions. For example,
| e-sport games, chess etc. Now you have something else apart from
| your job where you can succeed.
| mi100hael wrote:
| Ok great. Now I spend all day wishing I was playing chess
| instead of working.
| [deleted]
| kinnth wrote:
| 36, I had this, I was running a design team of a successful
| startup who had just raised around 2 million.
|
| I quit.
|
| I felt unfulfilled with the excitement and possibility, because
| life for me lacked meaning. I studied how to be a yoga teacher,
| focussed on my body and not my mind. I changed my diet to be a
| lot more veg and I moved out of London.
|
| I have less money, less power, but feel happier. I just worked
| out that the grind wasn't for me and I enjoyed doing different
| simple things. I now work as a consultant 6 months of the year
| and take 6 months off.
|
| Do what feels right for you. Everything feels the way it does for
| a reason.
| uoaei wrote:
| I don't think it's the hedonic treadmill so much as it is that
| you do not feel fulfilled in your career. If you were fulfilled,
| you would have said so in the text above, unprompted.
|
| What are your actual life goals? Do they go beyond "have a happy
| family and die as late as possible"? If so, you may not be
| meeting your _spiritual_ quota, though your _physical_ (assets),
| _mental_ (interesting problems), and _emotional_ (healthy family
| and friend relationships) cups runneth over. Perhaps you could
| find some time to volunteer somewhere that you feel you can make
| an impact.
| gorbachev wrote:
| There is no perfect job. Every job has something you don't like.
| The job you're interviewing for, because you hate your current
| job, isn't perfect either.
| cpach wrote:
| Maybe do more activities outside your comfort zone? At least for
| me that helps to keep life interesting.
| alexashka wrote:
| Because...
|
| "A ship in harbour is safe, but that is not what ships are built
| for." John A Shedd 1928
| kuramitropolis wrote:
| Congratulations, you've achieved your ten years ago's dream
| today. Now, start narrowing that time window.
| mxuribe wrote:
| > ...I work from home. My job is technically interesting, and I
| still learn/improve. I do not have meetings. One or sometimes two
| 30 min calls a week with my boss. Most days, I do not have to
| interact with anyone from work, not even customer contact...
|
| @perfectjob This job sounds great; good for you! I have felt many
| times what you have felt...and some people close to me have
| wondered if maybe in my case it was some sort of mild depression.
| Have you considered speaking with a professional? I should
| emphasize that this might not be any sort of mild depression but
| the "American way", as others have eluded, where reaching a
| partocular level makes one feel like it might noe be "enough"
| (whatever that means).
|
| By the way, may i ask if you wouldn't mind sharing a bit more
| what your job entails? I'm a little older, and admittedly at a
| different stage of life, but your role sounds like what i might
| like...maybe, depending on what you actually do for your living.
| If you don't want to share here, feel free to email me privately.
| (My address can be obtained by viewing my HN profile.) Thanks,
| and I hope that you feel better! As others tell me: life isn't as
| bad or as boring or as unfulfilling as you might think! :-)
| jordanmorgan10 wrote:
| It is alarming how similar we are (low 30s, 4DWW, great marriage,
| kids, big house, etc) but I've had similar thoughts.
|
| This sounds cliche and obvious, but it made a big difference for
| me:
|
| I found myself dreaming of shipping a project, or writing a book
| - whatever. But, then I would stay in the dream or possibility of
| what could happen if I did those things - but I wasn't actually
| doing enough to make them happen.
|
| So, I sat down on a Saturday morning, and wrote down what I would
| feel "unfulfilled" with in life if I didn't try them. Then, I
| wrote down a tangible plan to try them. It will takes years, but
| I will give them a go.
|
| I found that for me, it was the "what if" that was killing me, so
| I am eliminating that element and will let the chips fall where
| they may.
| daxfohl wrote:
| Yeah, making a 1 year, 5 year, 10 year, 20 year plan and
| getting started with it helped a lot for me.
| matt_s wrote:
| Remembering and referencing Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs just
| now ... this is the top of the pyramid - Self Actualization -
| achieving full potential including creative activities. Maybe
| this vision/desire becomes more prevalent in SW Engineers (in
| US at least) in their 30's or 40's because you've got the
| bottom tiers completed (I know its not like a video game skill
| tree) and possibly have Esteem met with being accomplished in
| comparison to many other careers. Tech is a sought after field,
| known to have high income and requires a certain mindset to be
| good at it. Being good, not even great, at Tech in the US gets
| you thru the bottom 4 pretty well.
|
| If your job lacks any avenue towards creativity or path towards
| self-actualization professionally (like being "known" in tech,
| building a widely used thing, writing a tech book, etc.) then
| you seek out other avenues towards self-actualization.
|
| My problem is having these ideas of things that I want to do,
| like an idea for a novel as an example, but not knowing
| how/where to start or just plain ignoring the sheer amount of
| work that is required and day-dreaming about it. That's not at
| the top of my list but that idea keeps percolating up at times.
| I like your approach about writing down a plan to fulfill those
| self-actualization types of things.
|
| An example where I've realized its a lot more work is building
| a desk top out of walnut for a sit/stand desk. From roughly cut
| boards to a finished top looks easy on youtube videos. Squaring
| a board to join with other boards without pro tools is a lot of
| work. So much work, much more than I thought. Some of the work
| is part of the process of learning.
| perfectjob wrote:
| > But, then I would stay in the dream or possibility of what
| could happen if I did those things - but I wasn't actually
| doing enough to make them happen.
|
| I know that one too well :) What do you have on your list? Just
| different things in areas of life or mainly productive-related
| stuff?
| jahewson wrote:
| Sounds like you are a creative person who needs to find a
| creative outlet. A stable job is not usually a great arena for
| that but it's a prerequisite for a good life. Plenty of time for
| hobbies!
| 50 wrote:
| Reminds me of postmodernism, e.g., "You feel sorry for yourself.
| You think you're missing something and you don't know what it is.
| You're lonely inside your life. You have a job and a family and a
| fully executed will, already, at your age, because the whole
| point is to die prepared, die legal, with all the papers signed.
| Die liquid, so they can convert to cash." (DeLillo, _Underworld_
| )
| twblalock wrote:
| Your job is only one part of your life.
|
| You also have family, and you can have hobbies and other pursuits
| if you want to. Fulfillment comes from all of those aspects of
| life, not just from your job.
| elwell wrote:
| Isn't 'wanting more' what got you to where you are?
| altdataseller wrote:
| Try volunteering and being around those less fortunate than you.
| I volunteered once at a cancer center for a summer and being
| around ppl who literally have a few months to live really does
| make you put everything in perspective.
| akira2501 wrote:
| I don't know enough about you to offer anything meaningful.. but
| from my own experiences:
|
| All the things you do, you want to do.
|
| There's nothing inherently positive about this, given our
| evolutionary history.
|
| Start doing more things you don't want to do.
|
| Stop allowing yourself to be comfortable by default.
| gualang wrote:
| I would suggest a mindset like Ripley's while trying to battle
| the mother alien - "still lucky, not dead yet". Once the
| realization of one's imminent mortality like Ripley or after
| stroke where half of the body is paralysed, one becomes
| appreciative of all the "luck" and grace life bestowed. I would
| suggest OP try volunteer in VA or hospitals, hospice or homeless
| shelters, etc. I'm still lucky, not dead yet.
| birdyrooster wrote:
| Your post is why I don't want to "settle down". I am just going
| to feel stuck and then take it out on my wife and kids for
| limiting my options. Good luck!
| Nancyten wrote:
| marshray wrote:
| Spend as much time as you can with your young kids.
|
| Most opportunities will come again - that one won't.
| rdegges wrote:
| You are experiencing normal human ambition. It's natural to want
| more.
|
| The important things I've done to make myself feel more satisfied
| in my life are:
|
| - Be grateful for the things you have. Write about them in a
| journal, talk about them with your spouse, etc. - Give back.
| Donate money to a cause you care about, get your hands dirty
| volunteering, do something to make the world a little better. -
| Recognize that you'll never be 100% satisfied and that's OK.
| Continue moving up in your career, invest in keeping your
| relationships strong, etc. Don't get lazy.
| topkai22 wrote:
| Lots of good advice in other comments, but a couple things I
| didn't see already that I will point out: Your work from home
| situation might be too isolating. Asking to move to more contact
| with others might give you more satisfaction, or at least
| convince you DON'T want that and make you happier when you move
| back.
|
| Sometimes just starting something new helps. I changed jobs last
| year after a successful decade+ run at my old job. My boss,
| trying to retain me said "you know there will be problems over
| there, too." My response was "yes, but at least they'll be new
| problems."
|
| I think it is harder to choose between good choices for yourself
| then bad choices - choosing between a day taking the kids to the
| zoo versus making a significant work accomplishment is hard, you
| constantly wonder what you gave up to commit to the choice you
| did. Choosing between having to do an 8h drive in Arizona with no
| air conditioning versus having to go 3 days without food is easy
| - you don't look back at the end and wonder if you made the right
| choice, you know they were both miserable. It helps to get
| comfortable with owning your decisions - For example, I choose to
| spend more time with my kids because that's what I believe is
| right based on the information I have now. Being able to saw "I
| don't love this job, but I choose it because it empowers me to do
| other things" is empowering and helps me be more content overall.
| corndoge wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill
|
| It kind of sounds like you are coming from a baseline assumption
| that your job should be the most important thing in your life,
| the thing that gives you fulfillment. That can be true for some
| people but it isn't true for all people, perhaps not even most
| people, as much as HN would have you believe that it is.
|
| You have to make your own happiness. All of this shit is
| fundamentally meaningless anyway, so start from there and figure
| out how you want to spend your time.
|
| No one here can solve your ennui for you. Only advice I can give
| is start trying things, throwing shit at the wall and see what
| sticks.
| EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote:
| Despite what American declaration of independence says, happiness
| is not a natural state for a human, and is not really a worthy
| goal to pursue.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| I cultivate non-work hobbies.
| JobNoMore wrote:
| My friend I am in the same way. I am about to be 30 soon, working
| 1 - 2 hours 95% of the time, 0 calls or meetings that I don't
| dictate, no manager / quarterly reviews / 1on1s / etc.
|
| All this while making north of $300k, and I still am not
| satisfied and looking for more. I grew up poor on food stamps and
| busted myself for minimum wage and was happy. Now I'm here with
| almost no work, lots of respect at work, great pay, big house
| with pool, and I just feel like I want more.
| burntoutfire wrote:
| Sounds like an addiction almost. Addictions are often a signal
| of something being wrong or off-balance in life.
| JobNoMore wrote:
| True, that's an interesting perspective. I do struggle with
| substance abuse / video game addiction so I can see the
| relation.
| didip wrote:
| Please update this thread once you found the answer. I have the
| same question as well. I am probably luckier than 99% of people
| but somehow... it never felt enough.
| csisnett wrote:
| Because work is a means towards an end not the end itself.
|
| Pretty much everything in this life is a means towards the end.
|
| We were created to know and love God which is our ultimate end
| that will satisfy all our desires. Without him you will always
| feel something is missing.
| nunez wrote:
| What worked for me was two things: calculating my number and
| tracking all of my expenses.
|
| I did that listing everything that I wanted that would make me
| and my wife happy, calculating the yearly cost of those things,
| and dividing that by the average yearly rate of return for a
| plain old index fund portfolio, which was 4% at the time.
|
| When I did this six years ago, my number was $5M. Which is a lot,
| but is also not very much. I can't find the spreadsheet now, but
| it included things like:
|
| - A $700,000 house in Highland Park, Dallas (houses are >$1M now,
| which is still a bargain if you're coming from the Bay)
|
| - Two cars totaling about $150,000
|
| - $30,000/year in vacations
|
| - A large spending budget
|
| I knew that short of starting a startup and it getting an exit
| (and me not getting screwed by my investors or partners), the
| only way I'd be able to hit this is to get as close to where the
| money is made as I can and being ruthless about comp negotiation.
|
| Tracking all of my expenses has helped me visually see where the
| lifestyle inflation is happening and determine what things I
| should invest more into or cut out of my life. It has also made
| forecasting big future purchases much easier, as I can see how
| the purchase will impact me with a very high degree of
| confidence. This somehow makes me attaining that thing more real,
| which helps drive me towards taking opportunities that will yield
| more comp.
|
| I don't believe in "be happy with what you have." That's what
| those with say to those without to make them "feel better" that
| they didn't win the life lottery. I say "always chase more, but
| know what 'more' is so that you know where to stop!"
| ddfitb wrote:
| May I ask what your occupation is specifically?
| yata69420 wrote:
| > I dream about doing my own thing or retiring early to do other
| projects. It is probably human to always want more.
|
| So tell your company that you're leaving them for a while to
| spend time with your family. Go do stuff and see if you can find
| what's important to you.
|
| Leave on good terms, wrap up any projects, in the hopes they'd
| have you back in the future. People will 100% understand if you
| say you want to spend time with young kids, but it can actually
| be about "retiring early to do other projects".
|
| That's probably the most pragmatic way to satisfy your "why".
|
| > It is probably human to always want more.
|
| I think people are most happy when they are wanting more, ideally
| striving to be the best at something they care about. Most great
| artists and athletes are like that.
|
| I have a theory that our employment system hijacks this by
| providing a small salary for distraction and artificial
| challenges and rewards for retention.
|
| Many of us learn that we need to "slow down and become happy"
| once we've achieved enough career challenges. Somehow we should
| be content in our positions and pay, but paradoxically fearful of
| unemployment.
|
| If that's the space you occupy, you're simply underfunded and may
| actually need to "speed up".
|
| Also, if you have children, and you don't want their lives to be
| difficult, you may want to consider expanding your safety net to
| include future generations. You may need to really start hustling
| if you think about your family's long term goals.
|
| > If I knew I could have a job like this ten years ago, I would
| have thought that's it, the dream.
|
| At the risk of challenging your dreams, it may not be an accident
| that we are taught to dream of labor.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-07-11 23:01 UTC)