[HN Gopher] A new trade and liberal arts school: "College of St....
___________________________________________________________________
A new trade and liberal arts school: "College of St. Joseph the
Worker"
Author : jseliger
Score : 113 points
Date : 2022-07-10 16:07 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.collegeofstjoseph.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.collegeofstjoseph.com)
| Imnimo wrote:
| Do you really need to pay $15k a year to learn HVAC from guys
| with PhDs in Theology?
| throwoutway wrote:
| > Do you really need to pay $15k a year to learn HVAC from guys
| with PhDs in Theology?
|
| An incredibly ignorant and uneducated comment that's
| unnecessarily dismissive.
|
| It took two seconds to confirm on their website that your
| comment is wrong. Not all their faculty is theology
| morelisp wrote:
| It is still significantly more expensive than existing
| Salesian programs. There's definitely an ideological
| component here they expect someone will pay for.
| Imnimo wrote:
| Yes, it's only half theology degrees - there's also a
| philosophy and a history degree. The only ones actually
| related to the trades are two guys with no listed degree. One
| says "Math and Engineering", and other just says the single
| word "carpentry".
|
| Sounds like exactly the qualifications I'd want for an
| expensive HVAC certification...
| edent wrote:
| UkrainianJew wrote:
| Like it or not, the mainstream liberal arts education has
| devolved into a religion of its own. For instance, we treat
| climate change not as an engineering problem worth solving (how
| many "climate studies" prepare actual engineers for building
| nuclear power plants?), but as a source of irreparable guilt
| used to push back on ambition and launch personal attacks on
| people that do not agree with this viewpoint. This is textbook
| original sin straight from the medieval times. There are many
| other examples. Trying to call it out publicly very quickly
| gets you labeled with one of the modern-days equivalents of a
| heretic, and anyone trying to defend you will be considered a
| heretic by association.
|
| There are many, many people who are not happy with the status
| quo, and they are looking for others who share their opinion.
| And since the media and the social networks are actively
| working on deciding who's opinion gets amplified, and who gets
| memory-holed, the people disagreeing with the mainstream agenda
| will have no choice but to join existing opposing organizations
| and adopt some of their views, even if they don't fully agree
| with them.
|
| That's polarization of the society happening in front of our
| eyes.
| FredPret wrote:
| I've been thinking of this and Nietzsche's Genealogy of
| Morality in recent months.
|
| He describes how Christian + Jewish morality came about, and
| what might happen as religion fades away. I think you're
| hitting the nail on the head. Same same but different.
| watwut wrote:
| There is no shortage of engineers for nuclear plants.
| However, it is engineering, physics, programming or other
| specialization. And it requires exactly that specialization.
|
| Climate change is something else and there is zero reason for
| itself to try to overtake actual quality engineering, physics
| etc programs that existed for years.
| crabmusket wrote:
| > the people disagreeing with the mainstream agenda will have
| no choice but to join existing opposing organizations and
| adopt some of their views, even if they don't fully agree
| with them
|
| This confuses me a bit. For convenience, can we refer to the
| "mainstream" climate-change-as-religion group as M, the
| dissenters as D, and the opposition as O.
|
| If we're taking the single issue of how climate change is
| presented, why would D go and side with O despite not fully
| agreeing with them, instead of M who they don't fully agree
| with?
|
| Concretely, it seems to me that O are likely to not
| prioritise climate change in any way. Are D willing to give
| up climate change action for other principles? Why should D
| not join M and push for change, or be the faction that is
| more welcoming of other "heretics"?
| Teever wrote:
| > For instance, we treat climate change not as an engineering
| problem worth solving (how many "climate studies" prepare
| actual engineers for building nuclear power plants?), but as
| a source of irreparable guilt used to push back on ambition
| and launch personal attacks on people that do not agree with
| this viewpoint.
|
| But climate change is largely a social problem at this stage,
| not a technical problem. We can't even begin to solve the
| technical issues surrounding it until we get stakeholders on
| board with the plan to solve it. That isn't possible because
| people deny that it exists and/or actively fund denial in
| others.
| howmayiannoyyou wrote:
| The non-religious, progressive side has dominated college
| campuses for about 15 years. It's okay to have alternatives,
| and it's okay for both sides of the belief continuum to be
| represented.
| jen20 wrote:
| You realize that religion and conservatism need not be
| connected?
| vehemenz wrote:
| Presenting religious education as an alternative to
| mainstream secular education ignores the fact that most of
| the religious teachings are false. Teaching things that are
| false is not education. If you want to call it education,
| then it's poor education.
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| I do not know how to describe this post as anything other
| than anti-religious bigotry not tolerated on Hacker News.
| adenozine wrote:
| With Roe V Wade overturned recently, this seems a bit tone
| deaf.
|
| The beliefs are being much more than represented, they're
| being mandated and legislated and protected unfairly.
|
| Nobody has opposed the existence of churches or religious
| institutions in any major political setting for a long time.
| That's what representation means, that their right to exist
| and operate is protected. It's not being attacked.
|
| I'm a devout follower of Neaus Christ, but calling myself a
| Christian in modern America makes me absolutely sick to my
| stomach these days. I'm nearly ashamed of what that means for
| this country.
| seneca wrote:
| > With Roe V Wade overturned recently, this seems a bit
| tone deaf. The beliefs are being much more than
| represented, they're being mandated and legislated and
| protected unfairly.
|
| This is actually the opposite of reality. Roe was the
| mandate of one belief over the entire country, legislated
| from the bench no less. Overturning it is a return to
| federalism, and allows each state to decide which beliefs
| it wants to uphold.
| whatshisface wrote:
| We probably shouldn't turn this into a Roe v Wade thread,
| but perhaps they were talking about the state legislation
| _released_ by the court, which is applied equally to the
| people who want or don 't want it and is not a result of
| a popular vote.
| seneca wrote:
| > We probably shouldn't turn this into a Roe v Wade
| thread
|
| Yes, you're probably right. It's not likely to be
| productive.
|
| > ... but perhaps they were talking about the state
| legislation released by the court, which is applied
| equally to the people who want or don't want it and is
| not a result of a popular vote.
|
| Perhaps, but it doesn't read that way. Even if it were,
| that would just be lamenting representative democracy.
| Maybe a better point than the one that actually seems to
| have been made, but also probably not a particularly
| productive conversation.
| whatshisface wrote:
| Even a direct democracy can violate the rights of 49% of
| its voters. That's why we have a concept of inalienable
| rights and a semi-aristocratic branch of government that
| is supposed to be a check on violations of them.
| adenozine wrote:
| Well shit, why stop there then? Let's peel back the FDA
| and let the state decide what food is safe. Let's peel
| back the DMV and just let states decide who is fit to
| drive and let each state run their own database. While
| we're at it, let's go ahead and lose the IRS and let
| states collect our taxes up.
|
| Federalism just works! (tm)
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > Let's peel back the DMV and just let states decide who
| is fit to drive and let each state run their own
| database.
|
| That is what we do.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _Let's peel back the FDA and let the state decide what
| food is safe_
|
| For many foods, we still do. It's why you sometimes see
| "Registered with the Pennsylvania Department of
| Agriculture" printed on packages. (Usually abbreviated to
| something like "Reg. Penna. Dept. Agr.")
|
| Sometimes particular states set standards that all the
| other states, or an entire industry, follows.
|
| When they (used to?) give away cars on TV game shows, the
| announcer always lists "California emissions" in the
| description of the car.
| dvt wrote:
| What a weird post. This is _lirerally_ how the US
| government works.
| User23 wrote:
| Serious question: are you joking or is this sarcasm?
|
| The states can and do regulate food safety. The states,
| not the federal government, govern motor vehicle
| licensing. And finally the states do collect taxes. In
| fact the constitution even permits the federal government
| to levy an apportioned tax on the states and leave it up
| to them on how to come up with the money.
| dvt wrote:
| Small correction: this would be a return to anti-
| federalism (statism).
| seneca wrote:
| Ironically, the way the phrase is applied depends on the
| time period. Historically, federalism meant what you're
| saying. That is to say Jay and Hamilton were Federalists,
| and advocated a strong federal government.
|
| In modern parlance Federalism generally means the
| opposite: being strongly in favor of states rights.
| You'll also see this called "new federalism". The
| explanation for this is that Federalism is about balance
| of power, and the phrase is generally used to indicate
| policy that would return a stronger balance. Currently
| (since the Civil War in particular) the federal
| government is extremely strong, whereas historically, in
| the time of the Federalist Papers, it was extremely weak.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _devout follower ... but calling myself a Christian in
| modern America makes me absolutely sick_
|
| You seem to be working with a definition of "devout" that
| I'm unfamiliar with.
| adenozine wrote:
| This is embarrassing to post. Just say you have trouble
| relating to people, it'd come across better.
|
| Devout is about dedication, not visibility. My journey
| has nothing to do with how I portray myself and behave in
| social settings. Very few of my coworkers even know I
| attend church and do mission work. I don't have to wave a
| flag out of my ass to worship the Living God, unlike the
| majority of phony half-believers keeping pews warm Sunday
| mornings. They leave church filled with impatience and
| anger, and treat those less fortunate as a filth and a
| burden despite being commanded by God to serve THEM!
|
| All that said, I'm not at all shocked you don't
| understand. Good luck.
| reaperducer wrote:
| Wow, that was... an overreaction.
|
| Nobody stated that you have to "wave a flag out of [your]
| ass." I merely pointed out that "devout" has a particular
| meaning that seems to be in conflict with the notion of
| being "sick" to admit that you're Christian.
|
| In my (Roman Catholic) theology classes, and many decades
| of religious study, I was always taught that part of
| being Christian is to not be afraid of what other people
| think of you being a Christian. That accepting
| persecution for your faith is a very basic act of faith.
|
| I merely suggest you use a word other than "devout" to
| describe your relationship with your faith. "Adherent"
| might work. But as there are many different types of
| Christianity, perhaps your line requires less devotion,
| or a different type of devotion than mine.
|
| I'm not sure what a "journey" is, but I wish you well
| with your life and your interest in improving your
| relationship with God.
| watwut wrote:
| He is ashamed to be associated with other Christians,
| because he finds their actions shameful.
|
| He is not ashamed ofnthe God part. He is ashamed of
| Kavanaugh.
| [deleted]
| lettergram wrote:
| 15 years? It's been dominating college campuses since the 60s
| at least; probably goes back as far as the 20s.
|
| Recall, most of the eugenics movement was started in the US
| in the 1910s - 1920s
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_in_the_United_State.
| ..
|
| It was wide spread and taught in colleges in the 20s
|
| https://fee.org/articles/the-progressive-ideas-that-
| fueled-a...
|
| Arguably since 1900, there's been a steady decline in
| religion in the United States (slower than elsewhere). It
| marched through the institutions and now even religious
| universities are supporting outright sins stated in the Bible
| (see the split in the Methodist church)
| WaxProlix wrote:
| Are you trying to draw a dotted line between
| areligiosity/agnosticism and... eugenics?
| lettergram wrote:
| Eugenics are inherently opposite to the teachings of
| Christianity. Christianity being the dominate religion in
| the US it's easy to argue that progressivism has been in
| universities / dominate in universities since the early
| 1900s which was my point.
| WaxProlix wrote:
| Your first sentence requires a lot of citations (I think
| that a lot of eugenicists of the past and present have
| been enamored of 'Tradition' and race, and Christianity
| is tightly bound to those in modern times), and the
| second doesn't parse well for me.
| elcritch wrote:
| It's quite a bit more complicated than it'd seem. The
| Scopes trial for example is widely misconstrued (IMHO) as
| science vs religious ignorance and is a good exemplar. It
| really had more to do with eugenics which went hand in
| hand with evolution at the time. The science book in
| question was full of racist and eugenics pseudoscience.
|
| There's a few of the accounts of the Scopes trial from a
| more wholistic understanding:
|
| A more academic one:
|
| https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0950543080206
| 288...
|
| > Using Bryan's unread closing remarks as a key to his
| views, this revisionist historical work argues that Bryan
| opposed evolution primarily for political and ethical
| reasons--reasons that have been lost to historical
| memory. Bryan's overarching concern was the threat to
| society posed by extrapolations of evolutionary doctrine
| --namely, Social Darwinism and eugenics. His commitment
| to the Social Gospel put him at odds with the concept of
| natural selection being applied to humans.
|
| A more biased one but which highlights the emotional
| aspects better:
|
| https://unherd.com/2019/11/americas-great-victory-for-
| scienc...
|
| > The relevant statute, known as the Butler Act, was not
| a fusty old one. In fact the Governor had signed it into
| law only two months previously. The Tennessee House of
| Representatives had passed the bill by 71 votes to 5; the
| state Senate endorsed it 24 votes to 6. ...
|
| > At this time almost everyone who considered themselves
| 'progressive', including everyone who considered
| themselves a 'Darwinist', strongly supported the-then
| rampant eugenics movement. In rural Tennessee, folks may
| not have had a sophisticated grasp of Darwin's theory of
| evolution, nor of his cousin, Francis Galton's related,
| but pseudo-scientific theory of eugenics; but they knew
| the progressives who preached Darwinism in the cities
| despised country people, called them "imbeciles" and
| "defectives" and would sterilise them if they got half a
| chance.
|
| > More than 60,000 Americans were forcibly sterilised
| under eugenics laws passed by 33 states. It wasn't just
| low IQ that established someone as likely to have a
| dysgenic effect: a history of heavy drinking, or
| conceiving a child out of wedlock, were enough to mark
| someone down as a "moral imbecile".
| hindsightbias wrote:
| I'll need a cite for Christians against anti-
| miscegenation laws.
|
| Unless you think progressives controlled all the votes in
| these 30 states: https://eugenicsarchive.ca/discover/tree
| /535d39a37095aa00000...
|
| Christians were all over it, with all their own
| rationalizations.
| Thorrez wrote:
| >I'll need a cite for Christians against anti-
| miscegenation laws.
|
| >In 1967, two Catholic social services agencies and
| eleven bishops in the states that still had laws
| prohibiting interracial marriage used a "friend-of-the-
| court" brief in Loving v. Virginia to urge the United
| States Supreme Court to strike down the laws in Georgia,
| Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, North Carolina,
| Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, and
| West Virginia.
|
| https://ccgaction.org/node/1011
| watwut wrote:
| You are aware that Christian colleges existed for years? They
| have pretty large tradition.
|
| However, many of them are unpopular outside that demographic,
| because they enforce quite serious restrictions on students.
| You can be kicked out for having sex, drinking, for cloth you
| wear and quite a few other infractions that don't exists
| elsewhere. Teacher can't be divorced or omg single parent
| either.
|
| As bonus, all discussions about free speech of students in
| what you call progressive school are quite funny, if you
| compare it to large speech restrictions students in Christian
| school have to follow.
| throwaway0x7E6 wrote:
| the sheer amount of liberty we have enables us to choose an
| education establishment that fits our preferences.
|
| nobody forces you to pick this particular establishment, nor is
| it the only one you can choose. in fact, it costs money to
| attend, and they won't care if you choose not to.
| Topolomancer wrote:
| The Catholic Church, despite any other misgivings one might
| have, has always been open about the "mission" aspect of their
| establishments. I would not call this indoctrination: they
| offer to teach you a trade and earn a BA in Catholic theology;
| knowing that education in the US often puts you in dire straits
| financially speaking, this place could make a difference for
| many people.
| 8bitsrule wrote:
| > devoted most of the years of his life on earth to manual work
|
| Not sure sure about those missing 12 years, tho.;-|
| Thorrez wrote:
| >Christian tradition suggests that Jesus simply lived in
| Galilee during that period
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unknown_years_of_Jesus#New_Tes...
|
| That period is what they're referring to by "most of the years
| of his life".
| protomyth wrote:
| In a weird way it reminds me of many of the TCUs (tribal colleges
| & universities) where trades / vocational degrees are taught
| along side "normal" college classes. Its actually a pretty good
| idea and if properly done can result in some really nice
| interaction.
|
| I really wish that someone will mix a vocational robotics
| certificate with an actual robotic engineering degree. I just
| want to see the interaction. I dearly wish the result of the
| technicians having to build something designed by the engineering
| degree.
| Animats wrote:
| This is the Catholic Church returning to its roots - ensuring the
| aristocracy a supply of diligent, compliant workers.
| seibelj wrote:
| I think you could make a pretty inexpensive Computer Science non-
| profit that is unaccredited but issued its own degree. No one
| cares about accreditation anyway. It would take a wealthy person
| to put their name on it, and be a struggle to get the first
| cohort off the ground, but once you get solid lecturers and a
| good reputation it would be self-fulfilling. You only need cheap
| laptops and a single room for the whole cohort. Otherwise it's
| knowledge transfer. If you paid the lecturers above-average
| salary and outsourced everything else, you could probably do it
| for under $5 million a year, which for a rich tech person is
| peanuts.
| ModernMech wrote:
| Our CS department just spent an entire year on our
| reaccreditation. It's a huge pain in the ass and takes a ton of
| effort. But it's one of the main thing parents ask about.
| People definitely care.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Parents ask... do employers? I would guess not.
| Nasrudith wrote:
| Yes and no. Unaccredited are a red flag but proven
| abilities shows it was legitimate enough. Still makes it
| harder to get through the door with an unaccredited degree.
| Which is reason to care.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > Still makes it harder to get through the door with an
| unaccredited degree.
|
| But who is checking? I've never asked myself if someone's
| degree is accredited. I wouldn't even know how to check
| if I cared.
| watwut wrote:
| Parents are the ones who pay.
| chaosharmonic wrote:
| An accredited CS degree program is actually one of
| FreeCodeCamp's long-term goals.[0]
|
| [0] https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/free-accredited-
| bachelors-...
| ThrowawayR2 wrote:
| > " _No one cares about accreditation anyway._ "
|
| " _... U.S. jurisdictions where the use of higher education
| credentials from diploma mills and unaccredited schools is
| explicitly illegal or legally restricted include Illinois,
| Indiana, Maine, Michigan, Missouri, Nevada, New Jersey, North
| Dakota, Oregon, South Dakota, Texas, Virginia, and Washington.
| Many other states are also considering restrictions on
| unaccredited degree use in order to help prevent fraud. ..._ "
| --
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mills_in_the_United_St...
| bencollier49 wrote:
| This sounds like moat-building. But what does "the use of
| higher education credentials from diploma mills and
| unaccredited schools" actually amount to? Listing them on a
| CV?
| ThrowawayR2 wrote:
| You know, you could've just Googled a bit to find the
| relevant laws. For example, for Washington state:
| https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.60.070
|
| " _... (2) A person is guilty of knowingly using a false
| academic credential if the person knowingly uses a false
| academic credential or falsely claims to have a credential
| issued by an institution of higher education that is
| accredited by an accrediting association recognized as such
| by rule of the student achievement council:
|
| (a) In a written or oral advertisement or other promotion
| of a business; or
|
| (b) With the intent to:
|
| (i) Obtain employment;
|
| (ii) Obtain a license or certificate to practice a trade,
| profession, or occupation;
|
| (iii) Obtain a promotion, compensation or other benefit, or
| an increase in compensation or other benefit, in employment
| or in the practice of a trade, profession, or occupation;
|
| (iv) Obtain admission to an educational program in this
| state; or
|
| (v) Gain a position in government with authority over
| another person, regardless of whether the person receives
| compensation for the position.
|
| ...
|
| (4) Issuing a false academic credential is a class C
| felony.
|
| (5) Knowingly using a false academic credential is a gross
| misdemeanor._"
|
| Seems doubtful that it gets prosecuted much though.
| woodruffw wrote:
| It can amount to financial fraud (or at least
| incompetence), shoddy engineering, adverse and inefficient
| selection for graduate and post-graduate studies, and so
| forth.
| nibbleshifter wrote:
| > No one cares about accreditation anyway.
|
| Outside of HN and the SV bubble, accreditation _really_
| matters.
| 8bitsrule wrote:
| Back when I was a manual laborer, if you could pick up a
| hammer and hit the nail every time - or mixup a good batch of
| mud - or drive a skidder of logs to the landing - that _was_
| the interview _and_ accreditation.
|
| College enabled me to talk fancier during that time.
| watwut wrote:
| You don't need trade school for hitting nail with hammer
| nor for digging holes. You don't need previous experience
| either.
|
| For those kind of jobs this is complete waste of money.
| tolleydbg wrote:
| Not in trades. These students will graduate with years of
| experience, taking the website explanation at face value.
| There isn't something akin to ABET, or even FE/PE exams for
| these skills, but if they can count their work experience
| while in school here, they can become licensed tradesmen in
| states with work and apprenticeship requirements.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| I'm hiring for a Flutter and BLE job right now. Couldn't
| possibly care less about accreditation and far from an HN-
| typical.
|
| We're out there. Really doesn't matter on the specific job,
| all I care is, can you do it, and will you be a distraction?
| wildrhythms wrote:
| Oh you got your degree from Omnicorp College? Sorry, at
| Megacorp we only accept degrees from Megacorp University (a
| subsidiary of the Walt Disney-Unilever School). No one cares
| about accreditation.
| whatshisface wrote:
| How does writing a one-sentence cyberpunk story say anything
| about who cares about accreditation?
| pram wrote:
| Costco degrees have pretty broad acceptance though.
| _-david-_ wrote:
| What is a Costco degree?
| rchaud wrote:
| > It would take a wealthy person to put their name on it, and
| be a struggle to get the first cohort off the ground, but once
| you get solid lecturers and a good reputation it would be self-
| fulfilling.
|
| Any real world examples of this? Besides the Thiel fund of
| course, which is a ideological vanity project.
| seibelj wrote:
| There is a new university called UATX that is trying
| https://www.uaustin.org/
|
| But they seem to be going down the route of trying to get
| accredited. IMO no one cares about any of that except other
| academics, businesses only care about talent and
| intelligence.
| jen20 wrote:
| Immigration agencies tend to care.
| whatshisface wrote:
| Accreditation is meant to protect students (in the new
| model, customers) from scams. Would you, personally, go to
| a college that wasn't accredited?
| seibelj wrote:
| Yes - if a graduate can demonstrate they received a good
| education, then the reputation of the school will grow.
| Many rules for accreditation (like libraries with a
| certain number of books) make zero sense in 2022.
| whatshisface wrote:
| Would you, as a student, rather grow the reputation of
| your non-accredited institution by demonstrating over
| time that you don't match the prevailing prejudices
| against it, or would you rather go to an accredited
| institution that people can see with a little research,
| is not a diploma mill?
| mathgladiator wrote:
| > Would you, personally, go to a college that wasn't
| accredited?
|
| If there was solid evidence of a pipeline towards big
| tech, then maybe? I went to K-State which is accredited
| and yet no big tech recruits from there. The only way I
| got into the big tech game was starting a company in the
| mid-west and having CTO on my resume.
| whatshisface wrote:
| I've never seen solid evidence, that the public would be
| able to see, of a pipeline to big tech except at
| Stanford, and maybe Harvard, because that's what people
| talk about and put in movies. I am not saying there isn't
| a "pipeline" anywhere else, just that the pipeline has to
| be very big and obvious before a highschooler or a
| midwestern parent of a highschooler would know about it.
|
| If it was really true that nothing mattered except for
| quality, there'd hardly be a need for universities at
| all, because students could buy books and self-teach or
| hire tutors. Nonetheless, that is almost never done,
| because outward signs like accreditation matter a lot.
| User23 wrote:
| The University of Waterloo's co-op program is a major
| pipeline into big tech. I've worked with Waterloo interns
| and graduates many times and they've all been well above
| average.
| scythe wrote:
| But you've picked one of the most prominent schools in
| Canada as an example. A good example would be somewhere
| that isn't already extremely prestigious.
| watwut wrote:
| The other reason is that the learn from books alone
| simply does not work in practice. First, it is super hard
| to keep motivation without that external structure. And
| second, choosing books to learn from and choosing
| curriculum itself requires a lot of know how.
| howmayiannoyyou wrote:
| Graduate only, for now.
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| Vanderbilt, Yale, Stanford, Duke, Carnegie Mellon.
|
| Rich people have been putting their names on institutions of
| higher learning for some time.
| daniel-cussen wrote:
| Stanford had to do all kinds of shit to make its way up the
| rankings, the Termans in particular, just pulling all the
| stops on the way to number 1. It got $80,000 in WW2 when in
| contrast Caltech got $120,000,000. As Steve Blank put it,
| DoD (then Department of War) had no respect for Stanford
| engineering. They just plucked Terman put him in charge at
| Harvard. Harvard Radio Lab. It used to be bombers didn't
| get through, Terman changed that, after WW2, "the bomber
| will always get through." Then he plucked 8 guys from the
| Harvard Radio Lab, made them Stanford professors, and
| that's when Stanford started getting...a little bit of
| respect. It helped his best students became strong
| entrepreneurs like he wanted them to be, AND were generous
| --David Packard becoming Stanford's greatest benefactor in
| fact, in particular donating directly to the Stanford
| Endowment so the University could do whatever it thought
| was best--and having a long-lasting string of successes.
| This longevity was based on Stanford engineering graduates.
|
| There's other colleges named after whomever, anybody, and
| they don't go anywhere. There's a lot of cooperation
| required, a lot of people refusing to let each and every
| other one of them down.
| jollybean wrote:
| Accreditation is not necessary, but it matters. Also the
| reputation of the college, particularly in professional fields.
|
| For trade school, it probably does not matter at all.
| ThrowawayTestr wrote:
| I was hoping the religion part would be more of a background
| thing and not a core tenant of the program. No option to skip the
| BA in Catholic Studies.
| riffic wrote:
| tenet
| [deleted]
| smkellat wrote:
| I'm very curious how they're getting around section 1713.02 of
| the Ohio Revised Code as seen at https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-
| revised-code/section-1713.02
|
| They're not on the Ohio Department of Higher Education's
| authorized list. They make no mention on their website of even
| seeking authorization. They're not clearly identifying themselves
| as a "Bible College" to take advantage of that loophole.
| slater wrote:
| [deleted]
| the_only_law wrote:
| $15000 a year including room isn't bad, but I can still get
| similar education much cheaper at a nearby CC.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| No, you cannot get the politico-religious indoctrination that
| is the overt mission of the "Catholoc Studies" education this
| school offers at your local CC; give the current Supreme Court
| a few more terms and if you live in a predominantly Catholic
| state, that may change, but historically the Establishment
| Clause jurisprudence would prevent it.
| jollybean wrote:
| Since almost all of the early, 'good' Universities including
| the entire Ivy League (and of course the much older European
| schools) literally started as 'Seminaries' to train the
| Priesthood, and expanded from there, and the very notion of
| 'University' education in the US and around the world is
| based on this framework of higher learning, with integrated
| spiritual aspects, I think the material reality of the
| situation is a bit more nuanced.
|
| Yes, there are issues of Separation of Church and State, yes,
| the current SCOTUS is a scary in terms of their willingness
| to bend the constitution ...
|
| ... but it's also given that our colleges are by some
| measures a grift, that communitarian values may not be
| directly taught as many would like, that far-left ideologues
| dominate the social and political language, and that many
| people would like their colleges to at least have some kind
| of Religious Affiliation though maybe not outright 'Religious
| School'.
|
| This school seems to be really heavy on the 'Catholicism',
| but I can see something like it where there aren't any
| 'religious studies' directly, but rather with some
| affiliation, as resonating quite a lot with people.
| thebradbain wrote:
| > Many people would like their colleges to at least have
| some kind of Religious Affiliation though maybe not
| outright 'Religious School'.
|
| Public universities still have chaplains of various
| faiths/creeds. There's no problem with that (for now).
| There is also no issue with student-run clubs affiliated
| with a given religion, and they're likely still eligible to
| receive the same type of funding any other club is. The
| issue is if there is _only_ one faith/creed
| represented/forced at a public school (and even then, some
| public university sports teams historically get away with
| only having a chaplain of one faith [1]).
|
| [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-
| lead/wp/2015/08/21...
| wildrhythms wrote:
| There's also the fact that a CC is accredited, so not only do
| you get a degree, but you also get credits that can be
| transferred to another college.
| tolleydbg wrote:
| I don't think the student who who attend a trade school like
| this would care in the slightest that it isn't accredited.
| Taking them at their word that they teach five trades, offer
| employment at a local construction company, and set students
| up with an apprenticeship, these students could care less
| about accreditation or a degree. They'll finish with several
| years of experience in a trade.
| jxf wrote:
| > I don't think the student who who attend a trade school
| like this would care in the slightest that it isn't
| accredited.
|
| They will if they want to claim tax credits, take out a
| loan to pay for the education, gain discounts on insurance,
| continue their education later, and so on.
| UIUC_06 wrote:
| > There's also the fact that a CC is accredited
|
| One wonders if the accreditation agencies are neutral, or if
| they're going to say "well, you're not a _real_ school, so we
| 're not going to accredit you."
| Nasrudith wrote:
| I saw a university accrediting its new engineering
| department during a tour. It is a bunch of bueracracy and
| standards as opposed to something adhoc and fiefdom style.
| In that case the first few waves of graduates were
| conditionally accredited as graduates were required to
| accredit. Standards here seemed to be aligned in interests
| - they want to preserve reputations more than gatekeep.
| Given the sheer university volume gatekeeping is a dubious
| approach anyway.
| d4mi3n wrote:
| Can't speak for the east coast, but the west coast
| accreditation organization (I forget the name) has a fairly
| clear set of standards for accreditation that boil down to:
|
| 1. Facilities required for accreditation (library, labs,
| offices, etc)
|
| 2. Degree programs and learning objectives (e.g. Bachelors
| of Computer Science and a list of competencies said degree
| asserts)
|
| 3. Processes and procedures, particularly around course
| management and curriculum. A big part of this is mapping
| out your listed degree requirements to classes that either
| provide those competencies or provide building blocks
| required for those competencies. E.g. Calc -> Lambda Calc
| -> Category Theory to provide a lot of fundamental math
| skills for a proposed CS curriculum.
|
| EDIT: found them--the Western Association of Schools and
| Colleges is the organization that performs accreditations
| of colleges in California: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/
| Western_Association_of_Schoo...
| reaperducer wrote:
| _There 's also the fact that a CC is accredited_
|
| Doesn't the school have to open first, and then get
| accredited later? Or is it possible to be accredited from day
| one?
| ModernMech wrote:
| True it takes time, as student outcomes and testimonials
| are part of the accreditation process. But that doesn't
| change the calculus for new students. It's kind of a
| catch-22, but necessarily so.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| I would suspect the cost would go up if accredited. So,
| maybe an early adopter discount in some cases if not this
| one.
| karmicthreat wrote:
| These new "freedom" or other themed universities set my griftdar
| off every time. Like the University of Austin does. I'm not very
| fond of the grifty nature of established post-secondary education
| either. But you at least get something of some value at the end.
| jimbokun wrote:
| And the fortunes charged by long standing universities for
| degrees with little value in the marketplace, don't?
| jollybean wrote:
| They are literally directed at reducing crippling debt of
| students.
|
| If they grift harder than Northwestern, and leave students in
| 2x more debt than a decent school, well, then I guess it's
| maybe a grift.
|
| I would take their statements at face value.
|
| I suggest they are absolutely trying to do what they state they
| are trying to do.
|
| That said ... it's obviously a bit of a risk.
| rayiner wrote:
| > But you at least get something of some value at the end
|
| Aside from a few elite universities, do you? What's a Bachelors
| of Arts from Directional State worth?
| karmicthreat wrote:
| Probably get you through more doors than someone without one
| if you both have zero experience. It can lessen the hurdle of
| getting that first experience also if you take advantage of
| internship your university can arrange.
| elcritch wrote:
| This one seems like a genuine attempt to train for valuable
| trades while providing some of the college trappings. It's
| also significantly cheaper than most grifty schools like
| ITT Tech or Devry. Though I couldn't find anywhere saying
| they're a non-profit.
|
| If they do a decent liberal arts portion of the Catholic
| studies the students would gain a good grasp on reading,
| writing, and history with some philosophy too.
|
| Their mission page actually has some interesting parts
| about their view of the dignity of manual trades and labor:
| https://www.collegeofstjoseph.com/mission-and-vision
|
| To be honest many employers will also see "BA" and
| "college" and not look further since they don't actually
| care; it's just a filtering mechanism.
| melony wrote:
| Isn't UT Austin an established state school? They have a lot of
| alumni in the valley.
| karmicthreat wrote:
| UT Austin is a completely established school. I'm talking
| about the deceptively named University of Austin which is the
| Musk, Rogan, Fridman affiliated school opening maybe soon. I
| don't know if those 3 are actually affiliated with it, but
| their names come up with it.
| pyuser583 wrote:
| Isn't "University of Dallas" also deceptively named?
| jxramos wrote:
| I think this may be an unfamiliar pattern for towns that
| haven't yet crowded their name into university titles but
| it's a well established pattern when enough institutions
| land on the ground.
|
| Eg
|
| University of San Francisco (USF) San Francisco State
| University (SFSU) University of California San Francisco
| (UCSF)
|
| Same exact pattern in San Diego too. Probably going to
| see this pattern permutations across several towns in the
| future. I think Seattle and towns in Florida May have a
| similar pattern too. Kind of makes a schools named after
| individuals a bit more distinctive come to think about
| it.
| webel0 wrote:
| Parent is referring to a non-UT, liberal arts school [1].
|
| [1] https://www.uaustin.org/
| rossdavidh wrote:
| Less significant in and of itself, is the fact that this is not
| the first new college I've heard of being founded in the last few
| years, at a time when overall undergrad college enrollment is in
| decline, and a few colleges have recently either closed or merged
| with other institutions to make one college smaller than the two
| were when separate.
|
| This would seem to be contradictory, if it is interpreted as a
| result of less demand for post-secondary education. It makes more
| sense, if it is the result of a dissatisfaction with current US
| post-secondary institutions.
| indymike wrote:
| > It makes more sense, if it is the result of a dissatisfaction
| with current US post-secondary institutions.
|
| This is exactly what is going on. Boot camps, income share
| models, and a lot of newer colleges are simply attempts to
| disrupt the post-secondary industry. In this case, they have a
| really interesting table on the Tuition and fees page showing
| how students come out $171,000 ahead with their apprenticeship
| program (and it is quite conservative).
| mikeryan wrote:
| Dunno this seems like a bit of a strange one and I'm sure
| others have popped up. This is a faith based, trade school
| where everyone graduates with a "Catholic Studies Degree"
|
| It's barely a college, its not accredited AFAICT and seems more
| like a trade school - outside of the "Catholic Studies Degree"
| which maybe counts for a "real" BA?
| philsnow wrote:
| To my knowledge, accreditation takes a few years and requires
| demonstrating adherence to the accreditation standards over a
| similar period of years.
|
| I don't know if, for a new school, accreditation groups
| retroactively "credit" any degrees that the school has
| granted since opening.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| Non-accredited schools that are seeking accreditation
| always highlight this fact and what it means for students
| who start before accreditation is award. This school does
| not, so it almost certainly is not seeking accreditation,
| and since it's degree program is pretty overtly not a
| traditional academic degree program (not even in theology),
| but a religio-political indoctrination program designed to
| create warriors for a particular political viewpoint on
| behalf of a theocratic faction within Catholicism, I doubt
| it would have much chance at accreditation if it sought it.
| robg wrote:
| For $15k a year, couldn't someone just apprentice in a trade and
| get paid?
| philsnow wrote:
| My understanding of this new college is that it's aimed at
| solving the perceived problem of four-year Catholic liberal arts
| schools, namely that they graduate a lot of young adults with the
| same (or roughly the same) degrees, but without an obvious career
| path laid out for them.
|
| So, to begin with, high school graduates who go to these schools
| were predisposed to go to a Catholic liberal arts college. If the
| College in the article is successful in its mission, these folks
| will graduate with the degree they wanted, in the
| surroundings/environment they wanted, but also with solid career
| possibilities.
|
| People have been swearing up and down for over a decade that the
| US graduates far more people with bachelors degrees than we
| "need", and that more parents[0] should be encouraging their kids
| to learn a trade. This new college is a response to that.
|
| [0] it's seldom "us"; the problem seems to be isolated, in many
| peoples' minds, to other peoples' kids, and they don't want their
| own kids to be the ones who learn a trade.
| sircastor wrote:
| My mom frequently encouraged me to learn a trade on top of my
| chosen (at the time) field (Special Effects). She always
| pointed out that people would need their cars fixed and would
| need their electrical wired.
| jseliger wrote:
| _people would need their cars fixed_
|
| This may turn out to be false: electric cars require almost
| no maintenance.
| distortedsignal wrote:
| You'll still need alignments. You'll still need the
| steering adjusted. ABS modules can fail, those need to be
| replaced.
|
| Just because we're getting rid of two large issue
| generators in the engine/transmission system, doesn't mean
| the new machines are bulletproof.
|
| People are going to need their cars fixed.
| DiabloD3 wrote:
| I'd also like to mention that half of the parts in any
| given Tesla are off the shelf parts shared with other car
| brands. Just normal boring things you'd never think of...
| but ones that also require NHTSA approval, thus, a small
| number of Chinese companies have a monopoly on those
| otherwise boring parts. This came up when the pandemic
| started, and Tesla had to halt production lines waiting
| for the cargo ship to arrive from overseas because Tesla
| doesn't make that part.
|
| We have like 3 actually good mechanics locally... most of
| what they do is related to alignment, suspensions, and
| consumables that owners don't feel comfortable doing
| themselves. All three of these still apply to a Tesla,
| even though they don't need their oil changed, they still
| have tires, antifreeze, air filters, brakes, etc, and
| that's still bread and butter work for the local shop.
| shp0ngle wrote:
| "Catholic" and "Masonry" on the same page?
|
| https://www.collegeofstjoseph.com/trades/masonry
| Thorrez wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonry
|
| not
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry
| joemazerino wrote:
| I got the joke -- take my upvote
| elcritch wrote:
| It's ok because the masonry isn't free. ;)
| pyuser583 wrote:
| This seems like an interesting idea. You can object to the
| religious element. But a low cost liberal arts college that also
| teaches a trade sounds like a really, really good idea.
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