[HN Gopher] System76 Lemur Pro Linux laptop with 14 hours of bat...
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System76 Lemur Pro Linux laptop with 14 hours of battery life
Author : MasterYoda
Score : 242 points
Date : 2022-07-09 08:16 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (system76.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (system76.com)
| beanjuiceII wrote:
| i don't believe it, after buying all kinds of laptops including
| system76 the only laptop to live up to being usable and keeping
| long battery life has been my m1 macbook pro. Until these vendors
| leave intel(to what i don't know) I think it will be difficult to
| compete
| smcleod wrote:
| Why a shame it only has a 1080p screen, there's no way I could go
| back to low resolution.
| fio_ini wrote:
| It says 14 hour battery life but how can anyone tell about future
| longevity? I usually find any other laptop than a macbook has
| poor long term life. For example I have my macbook (this isn't a
| pro Apple post but they have damn good battery life and power
| efficiency) that lasts 10 or more hours after 3-4 years and then
| a Dell precision 5540 that lasts 10 minutes after 1 year. These
| aren't exact figures but you get the picture. Is there somehow to
| calculate this comparison/benchmark against multiple workbooks
| with different hardware and claims with all the usage aside.
| Don't say "well if you use it more and has more apps open..." or
| "the operating system uses blah blah blah" just hardware specific
| benchmark agnostic of apps and os, etc.
| bluedino wrote:
| My 3-4 year old Macbooks definitely don't last anywhere near
| their original battery life, and I've had plenty of MacBook
| batteries fail in the way of turning off under 50% battery when
| under heavy load. Not to mention swelling up.
| fio_ini wrote:
| actually speaking of apple... bc I didn't really want to get
| into this whole debate.. but at this price point why wouldn't
| you just buy a macbook air m2.
| ActorNightly wrote:
| Macs are not comparable to a full Linux system.
|
| Also, when the battery dies, you can replace it easily. Any
| modern laptop is still going to have battery degradation.
| This is a much better investment for those that can't
| afford to replace laptops every 3-4 years.
| fio_ini wrote:
| As someone (myself) that uses linux almost exclusively,
| what is that supposed to mean "that it's not comparable?"
| It's 100% comparable. And if you ask me ubuntu gnome
| desktop is starting to look exactly like a mac ui.
| Another comparison is that there's no support for my
| "full Linux system" when shit hits the fan and the OS
| deadlocks except for myself. Linux has 100% bricked on me
| after upgrades/updates. Anyway overall I 100% love my
| ubuntu and centos systems. 5/5 would recommend.
| trelane wrote:
| > you can replace it easily.
|
| Especially with System76. They all have instruction
| manuals available: https://tech-
| docs.system76.com/models/lemp11/repairs.html
| fio_ini wrote:
| > you can replace it easily
|
| I actually followed the link and went to the battery
| section..
|
| "Tools required: Cross-head (Phillips) screwdriver"
|
| "Time estimate: 30 minutes"
|
| "Difficulty: High (red)"
|
| High/Hard == easy
| trelane wrote:
| If you read it, it sounds easy. The "easy" things in
| their categorization are things like removing the bottom
| cover. If you're not comfortable doing it, I believe you
| can ship it to them and have them do it. (If you have
| questions about these things, I highly recommend asking
| them.)
|
| Sure, it's not as easy as an external battery, but I've
| not seen those in a long, long time. But you also don't
| need specialist tools nor a 35kg custom kit to replace it
| (https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/21/23079058/apple-self-
| servi...). And you definitely don't _have_ to send it to
| them to get it changed.
| trelane wrote:
| For contrast, here's Apple's page on how to replace their
| batteries: https://www.apple.com/batteries/service-and-
| recycling/
| psanford wrote:
| > Macs are not comparable to a full Linux system.
|
| What does that mean? I've run Linux on all the MacBooks
| I've owned. I just ordered an M2 Air with the intention
| of using it primarily as a Linux laptop.
| harry8 wrote:
| Dell are horrid, everything about their laptops is
| disappointing. Everything about the way they refuse to stand
| behind their appalling quality is culpable. I will never buy a
| Dell laptop again.
|
| Replaced my precision with a second-hand thinkpad t480s. 3
| years old. Haven't replaced the battery it arrived with. Recent
| popular distro. I get 10 hours of battery life doing
| programming. Webbrowser open with 20+ tabs, multiple terminals,
| signal, rhythmbox.
|
| Cost USD$410. Tough to beat that at any price. Maybe a new one
| with an AMD under the hood? I can get 3+ of these for the same
| money and is it really actually better? Dell was more money and
| a lot worse, you see a lot of people with that experience
| around here.
| vaishnavsm wrote:
| To be fair, it'll probably be a lot easier to replace the
| battery on that dell (and the system76, I imagine?) than on the
| Macbook. That evens things out even if the battery doesn't
| last.
| fio_ini wrote:
| Yeah sure that's a good point for someone who wants to keep
| doing IT support on their laptop and replacing batteries and
| other failing parts
| nicexe wrote:
| What is it with the weird RAM configurations? It looks like they
| have 8GB embedded (soldered) to the motherboard.
|
| The choices for RAM configuration come down to 8GB, 2x8GB, 8GB +
| 16GB and 8GB + 32GB.
|
| That makes the second option the only dual channel configuration.
| Going past 2x8GB is not a real upgrade but more like a side-
| grade.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Yeah, I hate this too. Either solder both in a sane dial
| channel configuration or have both socketed.
|
| What is it with this 8GB soldered, one socket free thing?
| iasay wrote:
| Manufacturing cost reduction.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| It's a weird trade off to make on a business laptop, but
| everyone does it now, including Lenovo with ThinkPads.
|
| If you want the upgradability and ports of a 2011 Thinkpad
| you need to buy a budget gaming laptop now.
| trelane wrote:
| I've read that socketed can be less performant than
| soldered but I don't have a good source to confirm or
| explain why.
| iasay wrote:
| If it's a standard RAM interface then no it doesn't make
| any difference to performance.
| zkirill wrote:
| Surprised by this. I'm deciding between System76 and Framework,
| and Framework is fully upgradable.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| Soldered, non-upgradable hardware is the bane of my existence.
| erdewit wrote:
| The first 16 GB will still be dual-channel, only the remainder
| will be single-channel (flex mode).
| trelane wrote:
| Yeah, this looks to be the case. They have "dual channel" up
| until you choose more than 16GB.
| codedokode wrote:
| Looks interesting. Here is what I would change:
|
| - increase screen size to at least 15.5" because small screen is
| unusable for programming and for browsing modern websites with
| large font size and large pictures
|
| - use IPS panel (can increase cost)
|
| - make arrow keys full size (doesn't cost anything)
|
| - add 7 keys for additional Cyrillic letters and 2 keys to switch
| between layouts (doesn't cost anything)
|
| - add 3 USB ports and Ethernet (doesn't noticeably increase cost)
|
| - increase RAM limit to 128 Gb (shouldn't cost anything, it is
| probably just a software limitation)
|
| - use standard 3.5mm audio jacks
|
| Using a better LCD panel can increase cost, so here is how this
| can be conpensated:
|
| - use an older cheaper CPU. Newest CPUs usually have lower
| performance to cost ratio and therefore it doesn't make sense to
| buy them. Also why pay for 10 cores when most of the time you
| will be using 1 or 2?
|
| - support cheaper HDD instead of SSD
|
| - remove unnecessary speakers
|
| - remove unnecessary keyboard backlight. Using laptop in darkness
| is bad for eyes anyway.
|
| Also I am surprised that a modern i7 CPU that costs over $470 has
| just 12Mb cache. You can (probably) buy an old CPU with more
| cache for smaller price.
| solarkraft wrote:
| Apple's 20-hours claims are actually real. I wonder how real
| these are. My experience with Linux has seen claims like this
| melt down to 2-3 hours _in normal use_.
| [deleted]
| blumomo wrote:
| I use a lemp10, the previous model with 11th gen i7. 15 hours
| of use are definitely possible in light use (low but sufficient
| screen brightness, disabling turbo boost), i.e. browsing, some
| video watching, text editing. Even running docker and compiling
| doesn't hurt much. The battery life is so good that I maxed the
| charging level at 85% to increase the longevity of the battery.
| I can still work a full day off a single charge.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| With modern laptops you can definitely get at least 10+ hours
| of work out of them but that wildly depends on how well the
| power curves are configured. If you're in luck the ones that
| Linux uses are good for your use case and you'll get great
| performance out of your laptop out of the box, if you're out
| of luck you'll have the tweak all kinds of settings to get
| more than five hours of battery life out of a laptop. The
| same is true for Windows, though manufacturers often provide
| better presets to Microsoft.
|
| The biggest killer of my laptop's battery life is the
| dedicated GPU. The second that thing turns on (for example,
| when I attach an HDMI cable) I can feel the entire laptop
| heating up. Granted, this laptop is sold as a mobile
| workstation for about half the price of a Macbook Pro, so
| it's not really designed for battery life, but it's still
| quite annoying sometimes.
|
| My previous laptop couldn't get more than two hours out of a
| charge, it's crazy how much more you can get even out of
| cheap laptops these days.
| trelane wrote:
| Where are the power curves stored?
| nicolaslem wrote:
| That is not my experience at all. Running Debian, my 7 years
| old cheapo 4th gen Intel laptop on its original battery still
| gets a good 6 hours of battery life.
|
| If a laptop gets much worse battery life on Linux that's a good
| indication that its hardware is not supported. It may be for
| example a dGPU that is not initialized properly and sips power
| as a result.
| jmondi wrote:
| I had this laptop, but ultimately replaced it with a 14" M1 Max.
| Some thoughts: - The screen is so much worse, in every way, than
| a MacBook. A "low resolution" (more like, not high dpi) matte
| screen vs the M1 screen, there is no comparison. When I first got
| this machine, my eyes would have to adjust to the screen, and it
| felt so blurry compared to my works retina Touch Bar Mac - PopOS
| is great! It is definitely one of the best Linux desktops I've
| used. Manjaro gives it a nice run for it's money... But.. next
| year is going to be the year of the Linux desktop! No disrespect
| to @jeremy_soller, because he is doing a killer job on Pop, but
| even in 2022, the Linux desktop is RC Cola, and MacOS is Genuine
| Coke Cola. I'm sure there are die hard RC Cola fans, but most of
| the world will definitely still prefer Coke Cola. - You would
| need to be pretty comfortable on a command line, and using Linux,
| to be comfortable using a Linux desktop. This computer would not
| be okay for my wife. - The keyboard keys started showing wear and
| tear after less than 9 months. The keys started to peel,
| basically, the home-row keys all lost their gloss coat where you
| could see it visibly that usage had caused a hole in the keys
| glossy layer. - I had a fully specced i7, and the performance was
| great. It out performed my works 2019 i7 MacBook with Touchbar.
| As for my M1... the M1 is faster. - I loved how the screen opened
| all the way 180 degrees, it was something I didn't think I'd even
| care about, but it was nice to have. - The touchpad was like
| using a Windows machine from 2010. It was so tiny, and had only
| the bare essential features of registering 1 finger clicks, or 2
| finger scrolls. No gestures. No nice click feeling. TINY. THE
| TOUCH PAD IS SO SMALL. Why do non-Mac Laptop users put up with
| such small touchpads? It is maddening. - It would charge over
| USB-C, but there was only 1 USB-C port, so that was kind of
| annoying. It did have a regular charger.... That was like the
| windows laptop I had in 2005. Short cord, and don't accidentally
| trip on the cord while it is charging, or else GG laptop.
| Overall, I was glad I tried it. For a variety of reasons, I want
| there to be viable Mac alternatives in the field. I ended up
| selling my Lemur Pro a few months after I got my 14" M1.
| movover wrote:
| > PopOS is great! It is definitely one of the best Linux
| desktops I've used. Manjaro gives it a nice run for it's
| money... But.. next year is going to be the year of the Linux
| desktop! No disrespect to @jeremy_soller, because he is doing a
| killer job on Pop, but even in 2022, the Linux desktop is RC
| Cola, and MacOS is Genuine Coke Cola. I'm sure there are die
| hard RC Cola fans, but most of the world will definitely still
| prefer Coke Cola.
|
| I believe your understanding of Linux as a desktop is woefully
| outdated, by perhaps over a decade. As someone who has to use
| all 3 big desktop operating systems for work (Linux via
| Pop!_OS, Windows, and macOS) and has used nearly every
| iteration of each operating system over the past 2 decades, I
| don't know how you came to this conclusion. The only area I
| could see macOS beating out Pop is in UX... if I didn't know
| how to use a computer and wanted the most frustrating
| experience available but also didn't know better.
|
| This isn't just my take either - older, completely tech-
| illiterate family members of mine have tried out various
| laptops over the years that ran all of the operating systems
| (adding onto those big 3 OSes, they've also tried ChromeOS),
| and as of right now, every laptop in my family runs Pop!_OS.
| When it comes time for them to upgrade their laptops, they
| specifically ask if I'll be able to setup Pop on their new
| machines. They do not have to muck around in terminals or
| anything like that - I setup Pop, teach them how to update it
| and how to perform the basic tasks they need, and the laptop
| remains operational for years. Compared to when they were on
| Windows and macOS, I get _significantly_ fewer support calls
| throughout the year when they 're on Pop.
|
| Not only is macOS UX, security, and performance lackluster
| compared to Linux, but it's also not even close to being as
| widely adopted as you claim to make it the "Coca Cola of
| operating systems". Windows holds that title, and that's solely
| due to how pervasive Windows is throughout schools and
| businesses, along with the fact that the vast majority of
| schools (at least in the US) teach students how to use
| Microsoft-based software like Office.
|
| Even if I had to use a Macbook (which I would never), Pop would
| be installed onto it from day 1, or else I'd opt to not use the
| laptop all together. Even if the Macbook has superior hardware
| to another laptop, if the Macbook has to run macOS and the
| other laptop runs Pop!_OS, I'd use the other laptop.
|
| This doesn't even touch on the fact that Linux is an open and
| free operating system (which again, this is a non-negotiable
| must-have), whereas macOS is heavily locked down and closed
| source. Nor does it touch on the fact that modern Linux can
| play nearly every Windows game with little to no issues and it
| generally just works 'out of the box' or needs a few
| applications installed, whereas the same cannot be said for
| macOS - there's much more work required within the terminal to
| achieve a lesser, often buggier result.
|
| While I agree with you that the overall build quality of the
| Lemur Pro isn't as polished as a Macbook (which is why I opted
| for a Framework laptop recently, in fact) and other physical
| aspects of the machine like its touchpad, I disagree completely
| with your assessment of the operating systems. Pop!_OS on a M1
| Macbook would be a better experience than macOS on a Macbook.
| niclo wrote:
| Pretty much agree, was going to make a similar but shorter
| comment.
|
| To me it feels like the opposite, Windows is the true Coke
| Cola just because some things work better and the vast
| majority of people use it like you suggest, Linux is some
| fresh Pepsi (to say, I know the other is more popular but I
| don't care and prefer its unique taste) and macOS is some ok
| discount cola, which is alright but nothing people should go
| proud of drinking.
| everdrive wrote:
| >THE TOUCH PAD IS SO SMALL. Why do non-Mac Laptop users put up
| with such small touchpads? It is maddening.
|
| Some of these points are subjective. I used to be an Apple
| touchpad evangelist, but at some point they switched to having
| enormous touchpads without any buttons. (the touchpad is the
| button) I had a touchbar Macbook Pro, and I'd get accidental
| input from the touchpad with good regularity. I wanted the
| touchpad from a 2007 Macbook Pro.
| philliphaydon wrote:
| I have the new DELL XPS 15. WOW I Hate the large trackpad.
| It's soooo annoying. I can no longer move my thumb down and
| back again without random screens flying around due to
| gestures cos my palm touches the corner.
|
| Giant trackpads are terrible.
|
| I miss my Lenovo nipple.
| baxuz wrote:
| That's because Apple does palm rejection correctly.
| Probably the best in the industry when it comes to any form
| of touch input.
| darthrupert wrote:
| Macs detect (99% of the time) when you accidentally brush
| the pad instead of meaning it.
| [deleted]
| philliphaydon wrote:
| Can only comment from using someone else's max because
| the last one I owned was the MacBook Pro Retina when it
| first came out and it's trackpad was smaller than the
| dell but suffered the same problem. However cos it was
| smaller it happened far less often. But on the newer
| larger one it does it too. However palm detection is
| definitely far better than the dell.
| riedel wrote:
| It is very subjective: For me the smaller the better, if you
| give a track point instead. I do not understand why people
| want to move there hand so much while working...
| MivLives wrote:
| Honestly most of the reason I like a big touchpad is
| gestures. On mac especially. Switching desktops is 3
| fingers to the side. My fingers aren't that small, it's a
| lot easier to do it on a big trackpad. I never really
| practiced with a track point when I had one, so I was
| maddeningly imprecise. Having a big touch pad lets me have
| more room for error on cursor movement. To do that I have
| to move my hand slightly more to get to the center of the
| pad. As you said it's subjective.
| madduci wrote:
| > the Linux desktop is RC Cola, and MacOS is Genuine Coke Cola
|
| It all depends on how you want to use the computer and what are
| your daily driver apps.
|
| Gnome Shell and KDE are wonderfully polished and work great
| also with multiple monitors out of the box, XFCE is pretty fast
| and functional.
|
| About your wife that can't use it? Mine is using Manjaro+KDE
| since years and never had problems, the switch from then-
| Windows 7 world was pretty no-brainer. It all burns down on how
| you approach a new system.
| mackal wrote:
| It should be noted that jmondi review is talking about the
| previous model. The one the article is talking about hasn't
| been out long enough for his post to be about lemp11. That
| doesn't mean it's changed enough that it's not still valid, but
| it was a different model of the Lemur Pro (likely lemp10)
| jmondi wrote:
| Yes yes this is definitely the case. Bought my Lemur Pro in
| late 2019 and used it until I got my M1 MBp
| JasonFruit wrote:
| I only now realized that lemp10, with regard to my laptop,
| refers to LEMur Pro and not Duncan Lemp. I had far too high
| hopes.
| rcv wrote:
| I have a 17" Oryx Pro that I've been using as my daily driver
| for work. It's basically a luggable, but I mostly love it.
|
| The thing I really miss from my old Apple laptop though is
| rock-solid suspend behavior. I feel like I can leave my Macbook
| closed for a week, and it will barely lose any battery life.
| When I bring home my System76 and leave it in my bag over the
| weekend, it will always be dead by Monday morning.
| bityard wrote:
| Is this due to the weird sleep states in newer Intel CPUs? I
| read that these are troublesome even on windows.
| trelane wrote:
| Aye, I too wish for better suspend. I suspect system76 would
| also like this. Perhaps when they're big enough they can push
| the ODMs enough to make it happen.
| nathanasmith wrote:
| >When I bring home my System76 and leave it in my bag over
| the weekend, it will always be dead by Monday morning.
|
| You may be interested in this systemd script I found on the
| Debian wiki[0] that enables hibernation and power off after a
| preset amount of time in suspend. I've been using it with my
| Thinkpads and it works great. Any time I close the lid it
| goes into suspend then if I don't use the computer for an
| hour (this is configurable in the script) it happily goes
| into hibernate.
|
| [0]https://wiki.debian.org/SystemdSuspendSedation
| cycomanic wrote:
| I don't want to comment much on the rest, but the whole trope
| of: a Linux machine is not for someone who isn't comfortable
| with the cli" needs to die. My partner is essentially computer
| illiterate (she didn't know about keyboard shortcuts, even for
| copy paste before we met and still doesn't really use them) and
| has been using my old Ubuntu laptop for years. The only thing I
| do is tell her from time to time not just to click away the
| update (she is a good example why having optional updates is
| not a good thing). Her issues are pretty much the same she
| would have for a Windows or Mac machine, usually related to how
| something in a word processor works. Also my mother (78yo) is
| using Linux as a only system, and she does a lot of photography
| and video work. She has actually even become quite competent
| with the cli by now, just because she likes to try stuff.
| psalminen wrote:
| Same here. I put mint on my.computer illiterate girlfriend's
| old computer. She used it as effectively as any other os. The
| update issue is real though.
| loudmax wrote:
| The issue is that open source distributions don't have access
| to the level of testing and quality control that the
| proprietary desktop duopoly do. Microsoft and Apple can spend
| millions of dollars to make it very unlikely that a system
| update will break your system. And even if when it breaks,
| there is such a large user base that a solution will usually
| be easy to find.
|
| Linux ditros don't have that. In my experience, Ubuntu and
| Fedora don't have that level of stability especially when
| running a heavy desktop like Gnome or KDE. My Arch laptop
| very stable, but I'm running a minimalist desktop. In the
| rare occasions where something goes wrong I have the
| experience and inclination to quickly learn to fix it.
|
| I wish there were more competition in the commercial space,
| but I'm not sure that it's even a good idea for open source
| to try to match the GUI administration utilities from the
| proprietary OS's. It's far too much work troubleshooting
| weird corner cases. I wholeheartedly recommend Linux or open
| source for people who want the level of control over their
| machines that open source allows. But for people who just
| want their machine to work, it's reasonable to cede control
| to Apple or Microsoft.
|
| Maybe PopOS, with it's backing from a commercial vendor on
| limited hardware will change this.
| trelane wrote:
| > The issue is that open source distributions don't have
| access to the level of testing and quality control that the
| proprietary desktop duopoly do.
|
| In the case of Windows, there's a lot of onus on the OEM.
| Of course, most OEMs will not test Linux at all, so either
| you find a vendor that supports Linux or you YOLO it. Of
| course, if you YOLO, you're so helping ensure the market
| continues to make _more_ Windows-only hardware, so you can
| look forward to even more YOLO.
|
| > I wish there were more competition in the commercial
| space,
|
| Unlike in previous decades*, you _actually can buy laptops
| with Linux pre-installed, from vendors that actually
| support it._ This is huge.
|
| If you want Linux that Just Works, for the love of God,
| _stop buying Windows hardware._ Sometimes I think the
| smartest thing Apple ever did was require Apple hardware to
| run OSX.
|
| *Ask this greybeard how he knows.
| addicted wrote:
| And yet, I have never heard of a Linux update which bricked
| your system, something that has happened with both Windows
| and OSX.
|
| https://www.tomsguide.com/news/this-macos-update-is-
| bricking...
|
| https://www.itpro.com/hardware/358739/apple-releases-
| macos-u...
|
| https://www.laptopmag.com/news/windows-10-update-now-
| brickin...
|
| Searching Linux update bricking systems brought up nothing
| relevant. The closest I could find was a forum post by a
| user complaining about the update bricking their
| "experimental system".
|
| The Macos examples are particularly bad. Bricking systems
| with logic boards replaced by Apple repair and because you
| connected to "unauthorized" USB devices.
| jorvi wrote:
| Literally the first time I installed Ubuntu in 2009, I
| booted into it, it asked me to install a bunch of
| updates, and when I did the required reboot, it dropped
| me into the boot terminal with a bunch of vague errors.
|
| Linux is _not_ infallible.
| Fnoord wrote:
| You have not heard of it? Well, you're replying to
| someone who's using Arch. With Arch, you get into trouble
| all the time, but if you're well versed with Linux (and
| Arch) you can fix it.
|
| I'm using Arch, and ZFS, on my work laptop. A month ago,
| when I update my kernel, boom I had to use Systemrescue
| because it would no longer boot ZFS root. And of course
| just at that day I lost my Ventoy USB stick (probably my
| 2 y.o. son got rid of it ...)
| shalmanese wrote:
| It's impossible to generalize across a broad range of use
| because each person's needs are different and non-negotiable.
| We've had plenty of examples of totally tech illiterate
| people using linux with zero problems since 1999 but they're
| totally irrelevant because they happen to be the people who
| are on the narrow set of rails that don't touch linux's rough
| edges.
|
| To make a convincing case, you have to move beyond anecdote
| to actual statistical analysis and the numbers are still
| pretty overwhelming that many common things that many common
| people need to do can't be done without the CLI.
|
| And even if you generate data that 60, 70, 80% of people
| would have no problems using linux, that's irrelevant in the
| case of a specific person who has a specific common need that
| linux falls over at.
| arminiusreturns wrote:
| How about we also include how MS infiltrated the education
| system with hidden incentives and essentially forced
| training in a non-free user hostile operating system to
| multiple genrations of people?
|
| I think people had to learn Windows. They can learn Linux.
| The excuses are bs. Schools should teach unix/linux, and
| not proprietary systems. We should expect people to learn
| new things to be able to operate new tools. Thats ok to
| expect. This idea that the computer is a dumb terminal is
| far too prevelant thanks to phone and tablet proliferation,
| another tech corrupted at the outset to be user-hostile and
| spy on them.
|
| Desktop linix and laptop linux are 99% of the way there.
| Yes, you will have to learn new commands and ways of doing
| things. Yes, some software you are used to won't work (wine
| be praised).
|
| It's worth all the trouble though. Freedom isn't free, you
| have to actively persue it.
|
| I look around and see way too much Stockholm Syndrome going
| on.
| toastal wrote:
| It's all software really. Most people would be fine
| without Adobe or Microsoft Office or Google Docs. We
| don't need to train kids with GitHub, Sibelius or Dorico,
| the list goes on. Concepts don't require application-
| specific training and the FOSS options are largely good
| enough if not better than the proprietary competitors.
| wardedVibe wrote:
| And would be even better and improve faster with more
| users.
| Gareth321 wrote:
| > How about we also include how MS infiltrated the
| education system with hidden incentives and essentially
| forced training in a non-free user hostile operating
| system to multiple genrations of people?
|
| When was the last time you used Windows? Microsoft
| employees a small army of user experience designers to
| ensure it's a great experience. It's not perfect, but I
| can do everything I need to do using the GUI.
|
| This isn't a case of learning how to do the same thing
| differently. The GUI is objectively better for most
| consumer use cases. Linux, for better and worse, relies
| more heavily on CLI.
| arminiusreturns wrote:
| Holistic "experience" to me includes privacy protections.
| Windows spies on the user at every turn. GUI elements are
| not hard to get right. Launchers make it all even easier.
| hedora wrote:
| Can you name one thing that a NOOB-friendly Linux requires
| the command line for that a technically illiterate user can
| accomplish in MacOS / Windows?
| dividedbyzero wrote:
| Solving problems. Like, the happy path may have a UI, but
| if that doesn't work, or isn't quite right, any
| troubleshooting most likely will not have a UI.
| tourist2d wrote:
| Installing NVIDIA drivers?
| Volundr wrote:
| Last time I ran Ubuntu, (which has admittedly been years)
| it'd start with the open source drivers by default and
| prompt you with an to install the proprietary drivers.
| Doing so was two clicks.
|
| Is this no longer true?
| addicted wrote:
| Why would you be installing NVidia drivers in a machine
| that has come with Linux preloaded and graphics drivers
| already installed?
|
| Oh, you're doing an Apple to Oranges comparison between
| Linux manually installed on a machine vs Mac or Windows
| coming preloaded on the machine?
|
| Because if you did an apples to apples comparison, any
| decent computer with Linux preinstalled will come with
| all the drivers installed as well. And when it comes to
| manually installing, installing drivers for Windows can
| also be a pain, and don't even get started on trying to
| install Mac on a machine it didn't come preinstalled on.
| Hackintoshes are hard to make work even for experts.
| shalmanese wrote:
| As mentioned in a parent thread, compare the installation
| instructions between Windows/OSX/Linux for Radarr:
| https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation
|
| Radarr needs functionality that is more specialized than
| most apps so there's special instructions and edge cases
| on all three platforms. But the Linux version is
| significantly more complicated because Linux doesn't
| provide as many out of the box tools for installation
| that works across all distributions like Windows or Mac.
| Fnoord wrote:
| I mean I'd just use containers (e.g. Docker) for it with
| a reverse proxy (also container). But I also don't think
| this is software which you're supposed to run on a System
| 76 laptop. You're supposed to run it on a 24/7 machine, a
| server. Could be a Raspberry Pi (if you can get hold of
| one :P).
| Saris wrote:
| Changing mouse acceleration settings is one I ran into,
| there was no option in the UI at all and google searches
| brought up config file edits that went completely over my
| head. I think it was on either Pop or Fedora KDE.
|
| In windows it will come up by typing 'mouse' into start.
| gcbirzan wrote:
| And there is literally no way to do it on Mac. Or, you
| know, disable scroll acceleration, an abomination that
| needs to die.
| addicted wrote:
| This is quite typical of the kinds of things you need to
| "dip into the CLI" for Linux that people complain about.
|
| Things that other OS'es usually don't even allow.
|
| Edit: Another issue with Linux configs is that since
| nearly every setting can be changed through the CLI, and
| it's usually a single liner at that, most online
| resources tend to provide the single liner that one can
| use to copy/paste into the CLI to achieve what they want,
| because the alternative is providing like 10 screenshots
| for 15 steps for someone to try and painstakingly
| replicate with their mouse or trackpad.
|
| The most common example of this is that pretty much every
| application will give its installation instructions as:
|
| sudo apt install thunderbird (On gnome).
|
| When you can just as well go to the software center,
| search thunderbird, and hit install. Or go to
| thunderbird.com, download the package and double
| click/install.
|
| However, the CLI method is clearly far superior and
| easier, yet it leads to complaints about having to "dip
| into the CLI".
| trelane wrote:
| This does not require CLI.
| https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/mouse-
| sensiti...
|
| GNOME tweak tool has even more options, also from a GUI:
| https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Tweaks
| Gareth321 wrote:
| That adjusts speed, not acceleration. Tweak Tool is
| indeed what's needed, but it's not apparent to a newbie.
| I spent hours finding that particular app when I first
| used Ubuntu. It's absurd that that kind of functionality
| isn't built in.
| trelane wrote:
| I thought that was a acceleration.
|
| Perhaps they'd not know of gnome tweaks, though they
| could remember Power Tools from Windows....
| LambdaComplex wrote:
| Mouse speed is how far the cursor moves for some distance
| of physical mouse movement. Mouse acceleration
| additionally makes the cursor's speed increase when the
| mouse's acceleration (change of speed over time) is
| faster.
|
| Mouse acceleration is annoying (bordering on infuriating,
| imo) because it changes cursor movement from an easy 1:1
| mapping of mouse movement->cursor movement by adding an
| additional dimension. You then not only have to keep in
| mind how far you're moving your mouse, but also how
| quickly you're moving it. I can't fathom why UI designers
| seem to think that it's so great that it should be
| present with no ability to disable it.
| Volundr wrote:
| At least on my Arch KDE setup it's System Settings ->
| Input Devices -> Mouse and I've got an Acceleration
| Profile option between Flat or Adaptive. I can also just
| open up the settings and search for "acceleration" to get
| there. I can also just pop open the "start menu" (or
| whatever you choose to call it for KDE) and type
| "acceleration" and the first option is "Mouse"
|
| I'm not sure if Windows has finer grained control in the
| GUI or not, but TBH I've also never ran into anyone but a
| techie (and very few of them) who had mouse acceleration
| set to anything non-standard.
| Gareth321 wrote:
| Sadly this isn't so easy on Ubuntu. And it's not like we
| can tell everyone to "just use Arch," because Arch has
| its own tough edges.
| Volundr wrote:
| Oh yeah, Arch isn't for the faint of heart, but this
| should work on any distro running KDE. A quick check
| tells me Ubuntu is running Gnome 3 by default where you
| need Gnome Tweak Tool to access the same setting. That
| sucks, I agree, and I hate that Gnome is trying to go the
| direction of mobile by locking things down and removing
| configuration, but considering the OSX doesn't expose
| this setting at all and you need either the terminal or a
| 3rd party app to modify it, I also don't think that not
| having this setting readily available disqualifies Linux
| from being usable without the terminal, unless we're
| going to claim the same is true of Macs.
| twawaaay wrote:
| Unfortunately, you are wrong.
|
| I have quarter of century experience working on Linux
| including running it on all my laptops and desktops for 23
| years.
|
| Over the years keeping it working started becoming what seems
| like a full time job and I jumped the ship for M1 MacBook
| Pro. It still has a lot of problems but at least I have more
| time to do my actual work.
|
| I understand I might just becoming less tolerant of wasting
| time on things that should just work (my actual work being
| more and more distant from tinkering with OS internals).
|
| But, if I with all my experience am spending time keeping it
| alive, what has to do a person that has no idea about systemd
| or pulse audio or dealing with failed upgrades or anything
| else? Essentially -- you are using it until first problem
| happens and then you can either reinstall it from scratch or
| switch to Windows or Mac.
|
| I still keep a Linux laptop dedicated for critical security
| tasks (I don't trust Apple this much) and a number of Linux
| VMs (I am running small datacenter at home).
| trelane wrote:
| > I have quarter of century experience working on Linux
| including running it on all my laptops and desktops for 23
| years.
|
| > Over the years keeping it working started becoming what
| seems like a full time job
|
| These two statements are not unrelated.
| ungamedplayer wrote:
| Run Linux everyday. I am a heavy tech user. Multi polyglot
| developer.. what are you doing that turns admin into a full
| time job..
|
| Even my stupid obtuse use case is not that heavy.
| ekidd wrote:
| I've been running Linux for most of the last 25 years, too.
| But I've mostly learned how to keep things simple.
|
| I buy high-DPI Dell Precision laptops. They're pricey, and
| the build-quality is _meh_ , but they come preloaded with
| Linux. Everything works. I leave all but a few settings on
| factory defaults, and I never run anything but a "Long Term
| Support" release of the OS. In case of hardware issues, I
| buy an on-site service plan.
|
| I won't claim that it's perfect. But I spend less than 20
| hours a year "keeping it working." Which is less than some
| of my MacOS coworkers spend fighting with Docker and other
| Unix tools on the Mac, so it's a wash. It's not like
| getting the Python development ecosystem to work on an M1
| Mac is all sweetness and joy.
|
| One secret to my success is that I try _very_ hard not to
| customize anything. To paraphrase Yoda, once you start down
| that path, forever will it dominate your destiny.
|
| I do not recommend Linux for casual users. But for
| developers who deploy on Linux, it can be a very reasonable
| choice.
| dahfizz wrote:
| In my experience, the people who spend so much time
| maintaining their Linux are the people hacking on their OS.
| Which is something I encourage; the customizability of
| Linux is part of what makes it so great.
|
| But if you load up the newest Ubuntu lts on a laptop and
| never fiddle with configs, switch display managers/
| desktops, etc, then there will be zero maintenance
| required.
| trelane wrote:
| Also, buy Linux preinstalled and fully supported by the
| vendor. Saves _so many_ headaches.
| twawaaay wrote:
| I agree, if you install and never do anything with it it
| will usually work. But that isn't very high bar for
| usability. What about people who actually use their
| machines for anything else than just browsing Internets?
| I had people break it even in this relatively simple
| case.
|
| I'll give you an example. I am using an external DAC
| (connected over Toslink). It starts up automatically when
| it detects digital audio signal and shuts down when the
| signal stops. Unfortunately, the startup sequence takes
| couple of seconds (it has a delay of 2s and then slowly
| increases the volume over 4s, can't be configured).
|
| So in the default configuration, PipeWire insists to turn
| off the audio whenever there is no client to play
| anything for more than X seconds.
|
| This is super annoying, every time you try to play
| youtube video after going to kitchen for coffee you are
| loosing first couple of seconds of audio.
|
| This can be changed (remove a module that causes
| automatic suspend), but over last couple of years I had
| to redo this configuration at least 5-6 times after
| various PipeWire upgrades because PipeWire developers
| don't give a shit about user configuration and are happy
| to override it or in fact do some stupid things like move
| it from /etc to /usr/share so you are left guessing why
| your config files no longer do what they were supposed to
| do.
| skjoldr wrote:
| ArchWiki is a well-known recommendation to every newbie
| who has technical needs. Quote:
|
| "PulseAudio will first look for configuration files in
| the home directory ~/.config/pulse/, and if they are not
| found, the system-wide configuration from /etc/pulse/
| will be applied.
|
| Tip: It is strongly suggested not to edit system-wide
| configuration files, but rather edit user ones. Create
| the ~/.config/pulse directory, then copy the system
| configuration files into it and edit according to your
| need. Make sure you keep user configuration in sync with
| changes to the packaged files in /etc/pulse/. Otherwise,
| PulseAudio may refuse to start due to configuration
| errors."
|
| "[...]or by creating a new file that includes it with the
| syntax .include /etc/pulse/name. For simple changes the
| latter is preferred because the user will not be required
| to update the file when system-wide defaults change."
|
| So this particular example is moot unless PA somehow
| disregards the /home config and loads its system-wide
| config anyway or does some weird overrides. Any details
| or other examples?
| twawaaay wrote:
| I am sorry, I made a mistake, it was PipeWire not Pulse.
|
| https://ask.fedoraproject.org/t/pipewire-config-files-
| just-d...
|
| I normally don't edit the text substantially after
| somebody responds but this time I corrected Pulse to
| PipeWire not to slander Pulse developers for no reason.
| Gareth321 wrote:
| No one is claiming Linux is bad for very basic users. It's
| fine for people who only ever use bowsers. Linux is also
| great for developers. It's most of us in between who
| struggle. The last time I booted up Ubuntu I couldn't even
| adjust the mouse acceleration without spending 10 minutes on
| Google and more time installing an additional tool. I tried
| to install Radarr - a very popular home media server app. The
| instruction manual required is absurd:
| https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation
|
| Linux developers need to start caring about UX if they want
| the OS to appreciably rise above 1-2% consumer. Users should
| never ever, for any reason ever, need to open the CLI. Not
| when I want to install or configure an app, and certainly not
| when I want to update a driver or setting.
| klibertp wrote:
| > I tried to install Radarr - a very popular home media
| server app. The instruction manual required is absurd:
| https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation
|
| That's because it's written by developers. Devs are
| generally really poor at explaining things and they rarely
| have enough empathy to even notice that "normal people"
| might not necessarily understand (or care) as to why would
| they be better off compiling software from source. It's a
| known problem: documentation writing is one of the most
| hated software engineering-related work. It's a self-
| defeating but prevalent notion that "you can just read the
| code, so why would I write the docs?" Also: "nobody reads
| the docs" -> "why would I put effort into writing something
| nobody reads?" -> the docs are bad (obviously) -> "nobody
| reads the docs"...
|
| In this particular case: the docs here are really, really
| badly structured and the styles/colors/margins/etc make it
| even less readable. At least, however, the authors of the
| wiki _try to be helpful_ :
|
| > If you want an easy life, follow this community provided
| and maintained Easy Install script for a base Debian
| (Raspbian / Raspberry Pi OS) / Ubuntu install.
|
| There's a link to the script below. That's already the best
| you can expect from developers who are not specifically
| paid to produce installers (or, alternatively, use a
| framework that generates the installers automatically). The
| vast majority of devs never consider that people would like
| to easily and quickly install their software to try it out,
| then uninstall it if it's not to their liking.
|
| Also, why would you spend your time on an un-installer? If
| the user doesn't like their software, the devs assume it's
| the user's problem, not theirs. It's so irritating that
| I've set up automatic snapshots on /usr/ and /usr/local/
| just to be able to easily get rid of stuff that ends up
| there with every `make install` I execute.
|
| I know how it sounds - I'm not trying to justify this way
| of working on and with software, just thought I'll share
| what little insight I got after working with Linux-y things
| for two decades...
|
| > The last time I booted up Ubuntu I couldn't even adjust
| the mouse acceleration without spending 10 minutes on
| Google
|
| It doesn't change anything, but I had a pretty horrible
| experience with Windows and MacOS drivers for Logitech
| trackballs[1][2]. While the setup on Linux took a few
| hours, included 3 different applications, 4 different
| config files, and dozens of man pages to read, it at least
| enabled me to actually get the most out of the hardware. It
| was utterly impossible to configure the trackballs to my
| liking under Windows. I didn't try very hard under MacOS,
| but the initial research suggested it's even worse there
| (Logitech seemed to be hell-bent on "Windows first, second,
| and last" policy for some reason).
|
| > Users should never ever, for any reason ever, need to
| open the CLI.
|
| Not sure I agree, not fully. Text-based interfaces have
| their place - they present very different trade-off between
| accessibility and convenience than GUIs do. There's a
| reason why the command prompt metaphor is still alive, 30+
| years after the hardware got good enough to display a GUI
| on home computers. Though it's probably better left to
| people who want to use it, not people who are forced to use
| it; kind of like regedit.exe was always shipped with
| Windows, even though 99%[3] of users didn't (need to) know
| of its existence.
|
| [1] https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/360025260314
| --Pro...
|
| [2] https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-
| wireles...
|
| [3] Well, depending on an era and target demographic.
| heywoodlh wrote:
| I have used the Radarr and Sonarr Docker images for
| around 5 years now. Those were super easy to deploy -- so
| when I read this comment that the manual was ridiculous I
| didn't believe it.
|
| Then I read the manual and it's totally true: this is
| some of the least user-friendly documentation I have ever
| seen! Terribly tough to follow.
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| > The instruction manual required is absurd:
| https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation
|
| There exists a Docker image:
| https://hotio.dev/containers/radarr/. It does not appear to
| be absurd:
| https://github.com/hotio/radarr/blob/release/linux-
| amd64.Doc....
| cycomanic wrote:
| I disagree on not using the cli for installing things etc.
| Instructions on commands are much easier than instruction
| about the gui, because they are easily copy pastable.
|
| One example i encounter quite a bit, the instructions for
| installing python and packages for building cython modules.
| I have students who are very much intermediate Windows
| users, but explaining to them how to get the development
| (they need python for experiment control and analysis)
| environment going is really painful. They often take days
| to get in going. On the other hand Linux users are much
| easier, I just give them the commands to install the
| packages in an email.
| heywoodlh wrote:
| > I disagree on not using the cli for installing things
|
| I think that it depends on who the target audience is.
| For myself, I heavily prefer the command line for
| literally everything. But if the goal is for Linux on
| desktop to be beginner/non-power-user friendly then I
| agree with the parent comment that you should be able to
| do everything without opening the CLI.
|
| For me, I will always be happier with CLI tools. :)
| Hellion wrote:
| First of all, training users to copy stuff into a
| terminal is just a bad idea.
|
| Also, youre basically suggested that users use a GUI (a
| web browser) to get instructions on how to use a command
| line.
|
| It makes a lot more sense for there to be a clear and
| easy to use package manager, and if users are having
| trouble figuring that out, work needs to be done to
| rectify that.
|
| Also, if you're targeting power users who are familiar
| with the command line, that's one thing. But right now
| linux desktop feels like it wants to be everything for
| everyone and that's a very hard rope to walk
| bstar77 wrote:
| I've had these issues with Gnome and Gnome derivatives.
| Give KDE Plasma a try. The UI/UX situation is vastly
| different (this is coming from a Gnome lifer).
| bstar77 wrote:
| The command line is a problem for intermediate users. I
| consider Linus from LTT to be at the upper end of
| intermediate and he was borderline incompetent in Linux. When
| you have enough knowledge to be dangerous and the hubris to
| assume you know everything you should need to know, you will
| find yourself in deep trouble quickly.
|
| The most computer illiterate will be fine, but they will not
| be buying a machine like this. The most advanced people will
| probably be fine mainly because their expectations will be in
| check. I'm personally having a hard time getting my 13 year
| old to debug issues in windows and linux because his
| expectations are just too high (probably years of ipad use).
| He expects things should just work and get frustrated too
| quickly.
|
| Anyway, I think success in linux is more mental than
| anything. The terminal shouldn't be the frightening thing
| people like to think it is. It's just FUD. I'm in the
| terminal all the time on my Mac and no one seems to have an
| issue with that.
| klibertp wrote:
| > I'm personally having a hard time getting my 13 year old
| to debug issues in windows and linux because his
| expectations are just too high (probably years of ipad
| use). He expects things should just work and get frustrated
| too quickly.
|
| Please persist in your effort. Teaching your kid logical
| thinking and scientific method ("debugging") and helping
| him not to be easily frustrated are probably skills that he
| will need anyway later on.
| bstar77 wrote:
| Thanks, I agree 100%. It's a process, he's a hormonal
| teenager at the moment that I have to wear white gloves
| with when it comes to these things. We are making
| progress, tho... since I got him the Steamdeck he's been
| in Linux about 90% of the time and asking tons of
| questions.
| pkulak wrote:
| Windows is the same way. But even worse, since instead of a
| broken machine, you'll enroll in some bot-net. Someone who
| knows enough to be dangerous in Windows starts downloaded
| and running random executables from the internet when
| things go wrong.
| baybal2 wrote:
| Impressive it is for an "OS brand, yet it's just another
| relabelled Tongfang laptop, so people really need to blame not
| OEM, but people who keep buying from them instead of designing
| own hardware.
|
| Designing a laptop from scratch may be an adventure with a
| budget close to $200k-$300k, but there are tons, and tons of US
| brands who can pull this financially. Yet, even the
| "innovative" Framework laptop is mostly OEM work. It seems no
| Western brand took risk designing own hardware since nineties.
|
| I've been a privy to Dell's plans for launching a low-end sub-
| brand for Asia few years ago, before the COVID.
|
| Every contact manufacturer they been considering was exuberant
| about an opportunity to launch something original under Dell's
| brand, but Dell's MBAs were horrified of the prospect giving
| franchisees permission to run own designs: "what if they will
| make something too good, and compete with our main brand?",
| "what if they will screw up the design, and degrade our
| brand?", "how we will square this off with our part suppliers
| if we will divert them to another party?"
|
| I myself would've eagerly taken an opportunity to spin up my
| own laptop brand, with original design. It's far, far easier
| than most these fellows imagine, and certainly shouldn't cost
| many millions.
| trelane wrote:
| > Impressive it is for an "OS brand, yet it's just another
| relabelled Tongfang laptop,
|
| This is not correct. See elsewhere in the thread. However,
| its not as custom as Apple, but they're also _significantly_
| smaller than Apple.
| nrp wrote:
| The Framework Laptop is entirely our own design and
| architecture, with no white-label or pre-existing ODM/OEM
| parts. The cost of developing a from scratch laptop like ours
| is closer to the mid seven figures.
| hedora wrote:
| I worked on some proprietary thing (not a laptop) and mid
| seven figures sounds about right for just the motherboard,
| case, etc.
|
| Our thing was more custom than the framework, but mid seven
| figures sounds like a steal. Does that include making Linux
| be reliable on it? (5 engineers total on the
| EE/mechanical/industrial engineering and SW bringup teams *
| 4 year product lifespan is mid seven figures, just for
| salary. That doesn't include facilities, HW budget, stock,
| etc)
|
| I've never used a framework, but I assume suspend resume is
| reliable, it can sleep for a week, the GPU works, sound
| card doesn't pop/crackle, etc, etc... That stuff is hard to
| get right over time as distros get updated, which is why
| the above team needs to stick around over time (hopefully
| while they make version N+1).
| trelane wrote:
| It is built for and comes with Windows or no OS, so I'm
| dubious about it as a Linux platform. AFAICT, you have to
| be intentional about Linux support due to the 800 lb
| gorilla in the market.
|
| Like System76, the firmware is open source, so perhaps
| after a while it'll work.
| nrp wrote:
| Linux compatibility for popular distros:
| https://frame.work/linux
| trelane wrote:
| Nice guide, but I've bitter experience with guides vs
| support.
|
| Edit: sure enough. Several little gotchas and obscure
| commands even with the top-line distro, fedora.
|
| From the crowd sourced setup guide (https://guides.frame.
| work/Guide/Fedora+36+Installation+on+th...)
|
| > If you are seeing high suspend power drain, set
| "nvme.noacpi=1" in your kernel parameters. In Fedora, you
| can do this by running the following command: sudo grubby
| --update-kernel=ALL --args="nvme.noacpi=1"
|
| > sudo grubby --update-kernel=ALL
| --args="module_blacklist=hid_sensor_hub"
|
| Yeah, no. This is not what I would consider supporting
| Linux. Are there more gotchas? Who knows? Nobody's
| checking until its released!
| baybal2 wrote:
| > entirely our own design and architecture, with no white-
| label or pre-existing ODM/OEM parts
|
| My impression was that Quanta does way more for Framework
| than final integration. Well, good to see that somebody
| takes on the design themselves today.
|
| > The cost of developing a from scratch laptop like ours is
| closer to the mid seven figures.
|
| With most of that being the cost of buying the reference
| design, and access to the documentation I believe?
|
| I last worked on a budget Atom laptop back in 2014. Back
| then the docs were freely available with enough good
| Googling, as well as commercial quantities of Atom chipsets
| sold around Intel's channel. Now I believe it's near
| impossible without going through an Intel approved IDH.
| pachico wrote:
| A someone that codes and reads code most of the day, matte
| screen is actually a must for me.
|
| To be fair, I don't even consider apple laptops mainly for this
| reason.
| kingboss wrote:
| Unless you are coding in the sun it's not a problem.
| [deleted]
| d0mine wrote:
| Could you elaborate or provide a link? (what makes Apple
| screens less suitable for text work)
| chpmrc wrote:
| "As someone who codes", as if 80%+ of HN user base wasn't
| coders. Also you can make a screen matte with a screen filter
| (they are not just good for privacy).
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| As someone who used to be a big proponent of matte screens,
| matte finish is largely unnecessary when the screen in
| question has a combination of high brightness and good
| antiglare coating.
|
| My personal iMac and work MBP for example are glossy but have
| 600 nits SDR brightness with great coatings, and so have no
| issues with glare even in a brightly lit room while I'm using
| dark mode (which shows reflections more).
|
| That said matte screens can also benefit from high
| brightness. The 500 nit matte panel in my Thinkpad X1 Nano is
| excellent.
| tssva wrote:
| When I used MacOS I had to spend at least as much time at the
| command line as I do with Linux. If we are going to rate OS's
| by how much time is needed at the command line I think Windows
| is likely to win that battle.
|
| I found MacOS not any more usable or stable than Windows had
| been on my prior laptop. The hardware was less reliable than
| the Thinkpad my MacBook Pro replaced and repairs were
| outrageously expensive. I have switched back to a Thinkpad
| which recently had Windows replaced by Pop!_OS because as of
| kernel 5.17 the laptop finally gets similar battery life
| running Linux as it does Windows. I would never consider a
| MacBook again.
| JamesSwift wrote:
| I honestly cant think of a single thing I've ever needed to
| drop to the command line to fix on a mac. Maybe changing time
| machine backup process priority so it would run faster? And
| that was a want, not a need.
|
| Unless you mean _working from the command line_ rather than
| fixing issues with the OS from the command line?
| thethought wrote:
| >> rc cola .. blah blah
|
| Genuine question. Did rc-cola make claim that it is same/close
| as real cola ? Seem more like taste issue than durian-2-durian
| compare.
|
| Itching to buy a system76 64gb laptop and let go of mbp (good),
| and the idiotic lenevo and thinkpad (32gb duds.)
|
| disclaimer -- I work mostly console.
| pkulak wrote:
| I bought my dad a System76 desktop 4 years ago and he's been
| plugging away ever since with nary an issue. He's not tech
| literate. He uses the browser and runs an update every once in
| a while when prompted. It's been great. I'm fairly certain he's
| never opened the terminal (on purpose).
| throwawaymaths wrote:
| I went from a lemur 14" to a Mac m1 and the following things
| broke:
|
| - dual monitors were detected only as one monitor, and we're
| mirrored.
|
| - USB mouse (I disprefer Bluetooth mice) would have to be
| unplugged and plugged back in if the laptop went to sleep
|
| - no home/end keys
|
| - I had installed all of my corporate 2FA stuff on safari and
| safari would randomly drop me from Google meets. No other
| browser had this issue.
|
| The ctl/option madness definitely tanked my productivity while
| I had the laptop but I figure I would have learned it
| eventually.
| dahfizz wrote:
| > - no home/end keys
|
| > The ctl/option madness definitely tanked my productivity
|
| I am forced to work on a Mac at my job. Buying a Mac-layout
| mechanical keyboard is a must. It has home/end and it has
| control in the right place (why on earth would apple put fn
| in the bottom left??).
| MBCook wrote:
| > no home/end keys
|
| Command + left or right will do it. Works great on a laptop
| or small keyboard where you don't have home/end.
| jmondi wrote:
| The monitor issue only happens the first time you plug in the
| monitor (like with every laptop or computer I've ever owned,
| even the Lemur Pro). After you setup your monitors, it
| remembers the setup every time you connect after.
|
| Yeah agreed with a corded USB mouse, I just have mine plugged
| into my monitor, one usb c cable to my laptop for video,
| power, and data. Lemur Pro did this just as good as my Mac,
| no complaints there.
|
| Home and end I'm pretty sure is just CMD + left arrow, and
| CMD + right arrow.
|
| Totally agree, safari is a crap shoot. I used Firefox on my
| Lemur and on my Mac.
|
| I actually ended up remapping my Lemur Pro so that the
| modifier keys matched the placement of a Mac. I like my main
| modifier (ctrl on Linux/win, cmd on Mac) to be the key just
| next to the space bar.
|
| I liked the Lemur Pro a lot. Just trying to give some
| constructive feedback.
| sschueller wrote:
| I don't know who decided shinny screens are better but they
| aren't for me. Maybe they slightly reproduce color more
| accurately but most people are not graphic designers.
|
| Matt screens exist for a reason and can't just dismiss them as
| being inferior when they specifically solve a problem many
| have.
|
| Maybe they sell better in a store but so do touch screens in
| cars. Once you however want to use them you realize the mistake
| you made.
|
| I hate this world we are turning into where we redesign things
| for the worse because "look it's shiny". For me a laptop is a
| utility item and I need it to work. It needs to be able to use
| the CPU in it and not be throttled down to crap so it can be in
| a thin case.
| egypturnash wrote:
| I'm an artist and I am just as annoyed by reflections off the
| glass hiding what I'm doing as a programmer is. I have heard
| glossy screens took over largely because they look better in
| a store.
| Synaesthesia wrote:
| It has better contrast, deeper blacks. I find reflections
| just as big an issue on matte screens too.
|
| Glossy screens sometimes have good antireflective coatings
| which help (new imacs, ipads eg)
| sneak wrote:
| I think the issue is much less shiny/matte and much more
| high-res/low-res.
|
| It seems to be a point of pride in the Linux community that
| low-res screens are sufficient. Maybe it's because only Apple
| has figured out how to do both high-res and long battery
| life/low weight in a single system. The ultrabooks (air
| clones) are all struggling to replicate it. My 4k XPS13 has
| atrocious battery life. The only way that this machine
| manages to get good battery life is via a 2008-era screen
| resolution and the world's slowest GPU.
|
| It's a very hard problem to do small+light, with long battery
| life, and a high-res screen. The whole class of "ultrabooks"
| was invented by Apple with the MBAir, then retconned into a
| notebook category, and they're still way out ahead on the
| screen/gpu/battery life situation, as well as speakers.
|
| Presently all long battery life ultrabooks are low-res and
| have speakers that remind me of the 90s.
| xdfgh1112 wrote:
| I have used 1080p all my life and never thought that I need
| it to be higher resolution. So for me the risk of Linux
| high DPI support not working, high cost and higher power
| usage make no sense to me.
| dividedbyzero wrote:
| I've had a 2560x1440 27" for a long time and recently
| switched to 4K scaled to 2560x1440 and the difference is
| absolutely crazy. Everything is so sharp and crisp,
| letters look so much better, way easier on the eyes. And
| that's with plenty of people on here claiming that macOS
| does a bad job downscaling by non-integer values, not
| that I'd notice anything wrong. I remember my first
| retina laptop screen felt just as crazy good.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Don't knock it till you try it. 80% of my usage is text -
| terminal, code or my notes. Even most of my web usage is
| text.
|
| I won't go less than a high dpi screen, preferably near
| 4k.
| xdfgh1112 wrote:
| I'm happy with what I have. Why try for more, that just
| leads to misery when things "have" to be a certain way
| for you to be happy.
|
| It's the sunset cigar thing. Guy watches the sunset from
| his porch every evening. One day he smokes a cigar at the
| same time. Loves it. Now he HAS to smoke a cigar every
| evening or he can't enjoy it. What has he gained?
| jabits wrote:
| A man sleeps on the floor every night; one night he
| sleeps on a mattress and now needs a mattress every
| night...
| hedora wrote:
| There's also this weird meme that Linux HiDPI isn't ready
| or something. Back in 2001 I had a small 1600x1200 dell
| desktop monitor at work, and an even higher DPI Sony
| Trinitron CRT at home.
|
| They were both unusable under Windows, and probably MacOS
| 9/10.0, but worked fine out of the box in Debian (once you
| set the DPI correctly in xfree86's config file).
|
| High DPI support for Linux has strictly regressed since
| then, since, for some reason, people think Apple's scaling
| hacks are capable of pixel perfect rendering, and ported
| them to Linux.
| toastal wrote:
| It's not just resolution. Color gamut and accuracy is
| also derided for no reason. You might get downvoted for
| suggesting a screen in 2022 should have P3 coverage when
| 4-year-old mid-range smart phones do. It's really odd to
| me too because many web developers are working in browser
| with designers, game devs have graphics, people do
| graphical hobbies, etc. so it's an important feature to
| 'doing work' but last I checked zero Linux laptops were
| shipping with gamuts beyond sRGB.
| ta8903 wrote:
| I don't know if there's data to support this but from what
| I can tell Linux users are just poorer on average. So it's
| not like they think low res screens are "sufficient", most
| of them just don't think it's justified to pay twice as
| much for a better screen and the market just reflects this.
| Or maybe I'm just projecting my own views on the issue.
|
| Doesn't matter though because things are changing, native
| Linux device makers like S76 and Tuxedo provide have
| started providing 4k screens on their models.
| nominusllc wrote:
| > I don't know if there's data to support this but from
| what I can tell Linux users are just poorer on average.
|
| > Or maybe I'm just projecting my own views on the issue.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| Bringing a flat nothing to go against an anecdote isn't
| very helpful at figuring out what's right.
|
| Sometimes it's useful to point out flimsy evidence, but
| they already did that. You need to bring your own
| thoughts in this situation.
| JadeNB wrote:
| > I think the issue is much less shiny/matte and much more
| high-res/low-res.
|
| I definitely wish it were easier to get a matte+high-res
| combo.
| cal85 wrote:
| Agree. It's a shame the Linux community is so set in its
| ways. All I really want is decent, grown-up looking Arch
| Linux laptop with reasonable battery life and performance
| that boots to CLI and has retina resolution (>200ppi).
| People imagine retina must be all about graphics, but for
| me it's 90% for sharp text. It doubles the amount of time I
| can use a computer before my brain starts flagging. I use a
| MacBook Pro because of retina. I wish the rest of the
| industry would get their shit together, it's like they have
| a huge collective blind spot. It's bizarre to me that PPI
| is almost never listed on spec sheets and I have to
| calculate it myself to find out if the screen is going to
| make my eyes and brain hurt. And they almost all fall
| short. Outside Apple, high PPI seems to be limited to
| 'gamer' laptops with flashing multicoloured lights for
| overgrown children. I wish someone would just make a decent
| plain aluminium laptop with a sharp screen. End rant.
| Sorry.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| If all the apple hardware including their gpu (maybe
| except particularly proprietary things like Touch ID /
| Secure Enclave) were supported well on Linux and power
| management we're sufficiently figured out to not bea
| total disaster, would that be ok or is it unacceptable
| that the thing came with nonfree software or to risk
| apple's future hardware being unsupportable?
| cal85 wrote:
| That would be more than OK. I have no hard rules about
| free vs non-free, I'm pragmatic. But I don't see that
| happening. Apple don't want to put time into helping
| support other OSes on their hardware, it's not something
| they want to do and that's their call. At least they
| design good computers. What frustrates me is that no one
| _else_ in the industry gives the slightest f** about
| pixel density, even when Apple has demonstrated for years
| that people really value sharpness. Other manufacturers
| don't even mention pixel density, it feels like they're
| denying reality. Anyone who looks at an Apple screen can
| see the difference. My elderly mother said 'wow' when she
| saw her first retina laptop screen. It's just a different
| experience. It's weird how this has been the situation
| for so many years now.
| buu700 wrote:
| 100% agreed. My dream machine would be an M2+ Air running
| a stable release of Debian with full hardware support.
| (And I mean _full_ hardware support, including the
| fingerprint scanner, trackpad gestures, properly handling
| the notch where applicable, etc.)
|
| Apparently Asahi recently published their first alpha
| release. Does anyone know how close it is to being usable
| as a daily driver?
|
| Also, has anyone tried the Tuxedo laptop that came up in
| another recent thread? I'd be surprised if the trackpad
| entirely held up, and I'm personally against including
| USB-A or proprietary charging ports in any new hardware,
| but it is at least the first Linux laptop I've seen with
| a high-DPI screen. Inclusion of a Dvorak layout option is
| also a nice touch (Apple still forces me to pop out and
| rearrange the keys, which feels like a ridiculous kludge
| for such expensive devices). If Ryzen 7 is halfway
| competitive with M1's efficiency, I could see this being
| a very attractive option for a lot of people.
|
| [1]: https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Linux-
| Hardware/Notebooks/...
| victorvosk wrote:
| Once the fanless M1 air came out, I could not use anything
| else. I pray the rumored 15 inch M2 air is also fanless with
| huge battery life and more ports.
|
| My S76 laptop just annoyed me. It was fine for a linux machine,
| but there was just so many little details, build quality, etc I
| missed from the mac. I also found a few bugs in their custom
| pop packages and I reported them. The first engineer that
| responded was honestly pretty rude and implied I didn't know
| what I was talking about. A second engineer responded and said
| in fact one of the things I reported was true and hard to fix
| unfortunately. About a month later I noticed an update went out
| that fixed the other thing I reported.
| kibwen wrote:
| _> The touchpad was like using a Windows machine from 2010. It
| was so tiny, and had only the bare essential features of
| registering 1 finger clicks, or 2 finger scrolls. No gestures._
|
| My experience is the opposite. My System76 has better gestures
| than the MacBook it replaced, particularly since the gestures
| are easily configurable per-app.
| MasterYoda wrote:
| https://www.tomshardware.com/news/alder-lake-powered-linux-l...
| acomjean wrote:
| I was wondering how that got that battery life. I have an old
| system 76 (8th gen intel and nvidia) and while it's quite
| speedy and can game, battery life isn't great.
|
| The article hints at Linux now using intels new low power
| cores. Though I'm not sure exactly how.
|
| "Like Windows, Linux had to have some serious tinkering under
| the hood to prepare for the mix of Performance and Efficiency
| cores in Alder Lake chips. However, rest assured, efficient
| hybrid scheduling is taken care of with the two OS options that
| can be pre-installed on the Lemur Pro."
| jeffbee wrote:
| You'd hope so because these U-series processors only have 2
| real cores and 8 efficiency cores. If Linux were unable to
| sensibly exploit that setup, it would not be fun to use. Note
| that you need the very latest Linux kernel and depending on
| your distro some manual configs to make it work right.
| lhl wrote:
| There are lots of little tweaks that can make a huge
| difference in battery life. Since there's a lot more that was
| posted on the Framework community I use that as an example
| (but it can apply to any laptop model). OOTB, reports for
| idling was anywhere from 7-11W. With the Framework's 55Wh
| battery, that would mean that it would run down in 5-8h at
| complete idle (oof):
|
| https://community.frame.work/t/issues-with-power-usage/12261
|
| https://community.frame.work/t/nixos-power-consumption/6339
|
| However, with some tuning, that can get down to as low as
| 2.5-3W:
|
| https://community.frame.work/t/linux-battery-life-
| tuning/666...
|
| https://community.frame.work/t/battery-life-impact-of-ram-
| me...
|
| To summarize on the configuration options, the biggest gains
| are probably from powertop/tlp tunings, PSR, settings to get
| to C9/C10 on idle (PSR is a prereq for this), replacing
| PulseAudio w/ Pipewire, modifying the EPP values, and fstab
| options (noatime, relatime).
|
| Of course, some of System76's gains could be spending some
| extra effort on their EC/BIOS tunings, or on the hardware
| itself (lots of ways to mess up or to get gains from the
| motherboard layout/components).
|
| It's also worth noting that some SSDs like the Hynix P31
| consume much less power than others, so hardware selection
| can play a part as well.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| I recently discovered powertop. It makes a huge difference
| for my Lenovo Legion.
| BaculumMeumEst wrote:
| do these laptops suspend/resume as well as macs when you open and
| close the lid?
| sunfish wrote:
| I have a previous-generation Lemur Pro and suspend/resume on
| lid close/open works great.
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| I want to like System76, but ultimately can't. Dell, Lenovo and
| others have much better hardware and still run Linux just as
| well.
| tunnuz wrote:
| Can one install Windows on these?
| jeroenhd wrote:
| Windows will run on nearly anything but these laptops are often
| Clevo designs with some mixed and matched parts to get Linux
| running nicely. The whole point of System76 is to provide Linux
| support, and that comes at a price.
|
| If you want to run Windows, there are much better options out
| there for less money.
| [deleted]
| tbarbugli wrote:
| After 10 years of Mac I was ready to give up and switch to
| System76. Then M1 happened, I don't see myself moving from Mac
| for the next decade.
| sampa wrote:
| Give me proper (bigger) arrow keys (see Thinkpad) and 16:10
| screen and I'd buy it. Ryzen would be better, too.
| dugmartin wrote:
| I'm wondering with the (permanent?) switch to work from home if
| laptop sales will go down.
|
| I've replaced both my personal and work laptops with System76
| Meerkat mini PCs both running stock Unbuntu using Regolith for
| the desktop environment (https://system76.com/desktops/meerkat).
| They are stacked on top of each other on my desk and take up next
| to no space.
|
| I work from home (and have since 1999) and don't travel for work
| (since Covid) so I have no need for laptops now. I have a larger
| monitor and for now I'm using an old USB switcher to share a
| wireless connection for my keyboard and mouse and use the input
| switcher on my monitor to switch between machines. In the future
| I may get an integrated hdmi/usb switch.
|
| Has anyone else abandoned their laptops in favor of desktop/mini
| PCs?
| MattGaiser wrote:
| Have you always worked from home at home? Most people I know do
| work from anywhere for at least a few weeks of the year.
| benibela wrote:
| > I'm wondering with the (permanent?) switch to work from home
| if laptop sales will go down.
|
| They go up
|
| My employer bought me a laptop to work on it during covid.
| usrn wrote:
| GP probably meant consumer vs business laptops. Personally I
| let my last laptop die and never bothered replacing it. My
| Pinephone works much better when I need portable computing
| and it means I don't have to carry two laptops on a working
| vacation.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> the (permanent?) switch to work from home_
|
| Don't know where you live but where I do (Austria) nearly all
| companies, big or small, have employees back into the office.
| bjoli wrote:
| I got an Hp prodesk for a something like 140 bucks (8500t) a
| couple of years ago from a company that went bankrupt.
|
| My laptop stopped working and I never got a new one.
|
| Now I have a proper monitor (4k, 27 inch), proper keyboard
| (Matias quiet click), a proper mouse (Logitech trackball), and
| a proper webcam (some cheap 1080p one I bought from amazon that
| beats everything in a laptop).
| lordnacho wrote:
| But a laptop still gives you the option to go work in a park or
| a cafe. Anything taxing can be done on a remote server anyway
| so raw power hardly matters.
|
| Personally I don't think I'll ever get a desktop setup.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| I don't see the appeal of working in a cafe. It's like a
| noisy office, except you need to keep paying for your coffee.
| Might as well commute to the office where the coffee is part
| of the deal in my opinion.
| xcambar wrote:
| If you only consider noisy cafes with bad drinks and loud
| people, sure, better not go there.
|
| Bit some cafes are very quiet, have delicious drinks and
| food, good music and are (IMO) perfect for some light to
| mild-focused tasks.
| isbvhodnvemrwvn wrote:
| How the hell are people able to work on a laptop for a
| long time? Laptops are incredibly non-ergonomic, you are
| bound to develop neck or back pain.
| wffurr wrote:
| Get up and move around. Don't sit hunched over a laptop
| for hours.
| TheFreim wrote:
| For years I only used a laptop and I didn't really
| experience any of the issues you describe, I was very
| young though so that may have alleviated some potential
| issues.
| johnvaluk wrote:
| I learned from experience that spending years at the same
| chair and desk can do even more damage. As part of my
| rehab, I switched to a laptop so I could move from couch
| to chair to table to standing desk easily. I also highly
| recommend using a motorized adjustable desk, now that
| goods ones are easily available and affordable. A
| perfectly customized height for sitting or standing is
| just a button push away, and I can use multiple monitors
| again.
| hedora wrote:
| There are manual height adjustable desks that can be set
| for near zero resistance moving up and down. They have a
| brake and an adjustable tension spring. I think those are
| the best ones. The only advantage (some) motorized ones
| have is the ability to remember presets.
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| I don't know about other people, but the cacophony and
| background activity actually helps me focus. A lot of that
| is probably due to my attention deficit of course, but I've
| been this way as long as I can remember. In college I loved
| going to the floor of the library that had the most chatter
| and group projects happening (as you went towards the
| basement the rule was be quiet). It just helps crowd out
| the noise and distractions in its own way.
| dijit wrote:
| The difference (for me) with a cafe is that it enables body
| doubling[0] without the threat of interruption.
|
| So, for me, with my ADHD addled brain, I can be quite
| productive.
|
| [0]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2022/06/01/vir
| tual-b...
| kibwen wrote:
| As someone who also does this, I'm glad that there's a
| name for this phenomenon. :)
| rambambram wrote:
| TIL
| the_lucifer wrote:
| I do this and could never explain how I was more
| productive. I've always suspected I had ADHD and now I
| really want to get tested
| vips7L wrote:
| Without gaming I don't think I would ever use a desktop or
| windows again.
| fmajid wrote:
| I never abandoned desktops for laptops (I use them only for
| travel), but many people don't have a dedicated office space at
| home so a laptop is their only real option.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| I haven't; i have an office with a screen, physical mouse and
| keyboard, but it still gets plugged into the laptop.
|
| I can take the laptop to the kitchen, living room or garden if
| I so please. I can take it out of town or abroad. A desktop...
| I mean, i could take with me but not so easily.
| tolger wrote:
| I also work from home. I only use my laptop when I travel once
| or twice a year. I much prefer my desktop computer.
| rawoke083600 wrote:
| lol in my country (south africa) we got blessed with 'load
| shedding'. i.e the state owned power utility Eskom, switch of
| our electricity for 2.5 hours up to x3 a day. As there is not
| enough capacity.
|
| So one huge advantage of laptops are a)they run on batteries
|
| b) If you do need to run the laptop of an inverter(i dare not
| say ups) its much easier to power for longer.
| whalesalad wrote:
| Sorta. I like having flexibility and staying dynamic. I will
| often jump back and forth between my desk (M1 Mac mini) and my
| laptop (MacBook pro) to wander around my house on the couch or
| sometimes outside if the weather is nice.
|
| Having your compute/dev take place on a separate box and using
| these machines as thin clients helps too. My personal machines
| are mostly just editors now, not running any hefty code
| processes.
| xbar wrote:
| Do you manage your own remote compute/dev or is it employer-
| provided?
| amelius wrote:
| I refuse to use laptops. They are not ergonomic, and by not
| using them I free my mind from work in more circumstances,
| which I consider to be a good thing.
|
| (Using classic desktop Linux machines at work and at home)
| shreyshnaccount wrote:
| what do you find appealing about regolith? it seemed kinda
| heavy to me
| dugmartin wrote:
| The main appeal for me is it just works how I want it to work
| with little to no tweaking.
| shreyshnaccount wrote:
| I think you'd also like instantwm then
| Ruq wrote:
| I doubt laptop sales would go down.
|
| It really depends on the use-case, and need for convenience.
| With a laptop (assuming it's not a desktop-replacement style
| brick) it's easy to use it in a lounge chair outside, or on a
| couch in the living room, or to take it over to a friend's
| house to show something.
|
| Many people don't even use computing-intensive tasks.
|
| So, I don't really see the switch to working at home really
| changing user preferences. I could be wrong, but we'll see.
| beanjuiceII wrote:
| I want to thank you for bringing this meerkat mini to my
| attention..just bought a few! I feel like they are priced quite
| fantastically
| farmin wrote:
| Yes! I bought a used iMac 27 inch. It's beautiful screen but
| still getting used to the OS. I sold my Dell 9700 which was
| giant and kept my carbon X1 for loungeroom.
| wooque wrote:
| It won't. I'm using laptops since early 2000.
|
| Ability to take your computer to couch, bed, terrace, park, etc
| is irreplaceable.
|
| I do wonder why desktops still exist.
| BenjiWiebe wrote:
| I use my desktop because I like a 24" screen and full size
| keyboard, plus I don't have to think about battery levels. My
| desktop is old enough that even a cheap laptop has similar
| computing power so that's not personally why I go to my
| desktop anymore.
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| Laptops suck and always will relative to desktops.
|
| Desktops are more powerful, more upgradeable, and have better
| display and interface devices.
|
| "Having a computer" is a much higher priority to me than
| going places. That means "desktop" because it means having
| all the perks above. The most expensive gaming laptop will
| suck compared to a mid-tier gaming desktop. You can't squeeze
| the biggest cards and the best cooling or tons of beefy hard
| drives in a laptop. Laptops are a fundamental compromise to
| aforementioned "computerness" for the sake of portability,
| which to me is a bad deal. Anything that offers more
| convenience (and marketability) will compromise its core
| qualities. Phones are the next step down that road from
| laptops.
|
| It _would_ be nice to magically take my desktop to the couch
| (I don 't own a couch but figuratively), bed, terrace, or
| park, but not as nice as using a desktop instead of a laptop
| is in every other way. Wireless headphones help though. :p
| minimaul wrote:
| OOI, why System76 for those? As far as I can tell they're just
| off-the-shelf NUCs, and System76 are ~$200 more for a sensible
| spec than buying the NUC, some RAM and a good NVMe drive
| yourself.
|
| How do you find them for noise? I had an 8th gen NUC that was
| unbearable under high CPU load - I replaced it with a slightly
| larger ASRock DeskMini X300 with Ryzen 5750GE and Noctua AM4
| cooler that is silent, even under full load.
| iasay wrote:
| Even better there are lots of new unused Lenovo 11th gen
| Intel mini PCs lurking on eBay for less than half the price.
| They have two RAM slots, SSD cradle and up to two NVMe slots
| and have vendor Linux certification out of the box.
|
| I set one up last week for someone and it'll drive two 4k
| displays fine. Granted that was under windows.
| hedora wrote:
| I'd pay the extra $200 if the manufacturer warranted Linux
| compatibility for 10 years (with a checklist of things like
| wake from sleep and connect to WiFi/monitor that work > 99.9%
| of the the time, or some other SLA).
|
| It would also have to be silent.
| asoneth wrote:
| > OOI, why System76 for those?
|
| Not the original poster, but +$200 would be reasonable for
| me.
|
| The last computer I built was twenty years ago so I would
| have to do at least a couple hours of research to find out
| what sites and stores are reliable, read component reviews,
| etc. None of that information is useful or interesting to me
| beyond getting the computer up and running. And there's a
| slight chance that despite my best efforts I would make a
| mistake end up buying a collection of components that are
| incompatible, don't work optimally together, are back-
| ordered, or are missing drivers or something. Then I spend
| another couple hours on forums trying to get everything
| working.
|
| On the other hand, for an extra $200 I can spend five minutes
| configuring a tested configuration that comes with tech
| support if something is wonky, and kicks a few bucks to
| people trying to support Linux.
|
| Given the value I place on my free time the latter is
| significantly cheaper. If you already posses the expertise,
| enjoy that kind of work, or do not place a high monetary
| value on your time then the former might be cheaper.
| minimaul wrote:
| Hm, that's fair enough for a more complex desktop build in
| my opinion (except for the unfortunate fact that you often
| end up with paying a premium for worse hardware that way),
| but in this case the NUC is an off-the-shelf standard
| barebone that is widely available - the only thing you are
| adding is RAM and storage. You can do both of those (for
| reasonable prices) via Crucial's part picker, for instance
| - and in fact that's what I based my $200 estimate on.
|
| It feels like an odd target market for me considering I
| would expect people deliberately opting for Linux to
| already be more adept with that kind of thing - but maybe
| I'm wrong!
| umanwizard wrote:
| > I would expect people deliberately opting for Linux to
| already be more adept with that kind of thing - but maybe
| I'm wrong!
|
| Yep, I think you're just wrong. I know plenty of people
| who use Linux but have never built a PC and have no clue
| how to do so, and may never have even swapped out ram or
| disk drives.
|
| I'm sure plenty of people also don't know what a NUC is
| or where you would research which one to buy. You're
| discounting the fact that you happened to know about the
| Crucial part picker, but most people don't!
|
| Some people use Linux because they grew up tinkering with
| computers, but a lot of people use them for other
| reasons, like greater familiarity with GNU command-line
| tools, or just not wanting to need a VM to run Docker.
|
| I think the vast majority of people who build their own
| computer do so for gaming purposes and use Windows.
| dugmartin wrote:
| I'm at an age and point in my career that paying $200 extra
| to not have to figure out what components to buy and
| assembling it is worth the money. I did have a Franken-
| desktop in my 20s that I upgraded a lot (from 386 through
| Pentium 2) but that was a _long_ time ago.
|
| I don't find the noise bad at all, but again, that may be my
| hearing going :)
| minimaul wrote:
| I'd get that if it was a full desktop build, however in
| this case it's an off-the-shelf barebone that you plug two
| standard things into - but to each their own I guess.
| donatj wrote:
| I bought a MacStudio after years of being burned by Apples poor
| thermals. Turns out there's basically zero advantage over the
| current MacBook Pro. Kind of wish I had just gotten the MBP so
| I could work on the couch or bring it on vacation, although my
| wife noted she was glad I didn't have my laptop over the fourth
| this year.
| scoopertrooper wrote:
| Yeah, I think the M1 MacStudio was just establishing the form
| factor in anticipation of M2. Apparently, that requires a
| better thermal solution as the M2 MacBook Pro throttles much
| quicker than the previous generation.
| bonif wrote:
| I bought an M1 Max Mac Studio, and it ROCKS
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| Sure have. Just set up a Mac mini a few months ago. Been very
| happy with the decision. My laptop is for where I go to the
| office - it's an M1 MBPro they bought me so I flip between
| machines very easily.
| Linda703 wrote:
| knighthack wrote:
| The one thing I did not like about the Lemur Pro is its odd and
| extremely tiny arrow keys. That made it impossible to use, given
| that I touch type and rely on motor memory for typing.
|
| Most of the time this is quite neglible because the Lemur machine
| I have is tied to a mechanical keyboard and a desktop. But when I
| have to lug it around it can be quite annoying for serious, long-
| form work.
| Shadonototra wrote:
| laptop = lap top, and 0 word on power efficiency, fan noise, and
| cooling
|
| laptop industry is dead since apple released their M1
| guerrilla wrote:
| Everyone's talking about the laptop, but are you all not
| impressed that System76 is doing so well? I didn't think they'd
| be around this long, but I am pleasantly surprised and quite
| impressed they keep pumping out good stuff. I don't need a new
| computer yet but with Lenovo gradually decaying, I'm glad there's
| a fresh face on the block.
| bonif wrote:
| Display 14.1'' 1920x1080 FHD, Matte Finish
|
| Year 2022
| Darmody wrote:
| 8, 16, 24 or 40 GB of RAM. What is that?
| theodric wrote:
| My wild guess: 8GB soldered on the board plus a single DIMM
| slot for expansion with 8, 16, 32GB modules
| pierrefermat1 wrote:
| Yes definitely this, they are just distributing OEM laptops
| and can't alter the design decisions at the initial phase. So
| you end up with loss of some dual channel RAM benefits
| pierrefermat1 wrote:
| 1
| trelane wrote:
| Yep. If you click on "[Design + Buy]" you can see the higher
| amounts are "8GB + 32GB"
| psanford wrote:
| Man I wish System76 or Framework or someone else could make
| hardware as nice as Apple. I just ordered an M2 Air which I will
| be primarily running Linux on. I'm replacing my Lenovo T480s
| (which was a great laptop) because I want _nice_ hardware. There
| are just so few options that even come close to competing with
| Apple.
| toastal wrote:
| There's plenty of good competition, just none of those options
| come with Linux--and as we saw with the Lenovo news yesterday,
| it's getting less friendly to install a FOSS OS.
| psanford wrote:
| I don't believe that there is any comparable hardware to the
| M* macbooks right now, linux or not.
| nicce wrote:
| Lenovo news was just a click bait which meant nothing. You
| can install FOSS OS as well as 5 years ago.
| toastal wrote:
| Yes and no. A lot of folks would be afraid to fiddle with
| their BIOS settings. Reading that step could scare some
| users off from trying--especially the sound of "disable
| 'secure boot'"--but it's nothing a future Linux user should
| be scared of.
| rg111 wrote:
| If you are afraid to fiddle with your BIOS, should you
| even be using Linux?
| toastal wrote:
| People shouldn't be afraid of technology, but we gotta
| come from a place of empathy--especially with people that
| are too old to have never gotten into PCs or now the
| younger generation who was raised on apps and mobile OS
| where even the file system is hidden, but really anyone
| can apply here. Linux, BSDs, et. al. should be for
| everyone. This includes easy-to-use interface for users
| with little current technical knowledge but also which
| means keeping some distros and DEs that don't belittle
| the experience power user.
| rg111 wrote:
| Not belittling anybody.
|
| But any grandpa or granny who can use YouTube, can do it
| simply by following instructions shown there.
|
| People should at least be willing to do that.
| gcbirzan wrote:
| I have a 2019 Macbook Pro, and the only 'nice' part about the
| hardware are the speakers. Everything else is either meh or
| absolutely terrible (okay, the screen is okay too).
|
| Compared to a cheap HP I have, the touchpad is slightly better,
| but since the touchpad is huge I trigger it more on the Mac,
| the keyboard is annoying because it has a fn key on the bottom
| row on the left, rather than ctrl and don't get me started on
| the touchbar. The fingerprint scanner... mostly works. The SSD
| is fucking slow, 10k IOPS. The laptop gets unberably hot when
| connected to an external display, since it cannot use the
| builtin video card. Fans can be adjusted to be at full speed...
| until you go into sleep, at which point they reset, so it gets
| hot again. I'm also not impressed by the battery life, it's
| probably the same as said 500EUR HP, sometimes even less (yes,
| fuck zoom, and the 1h battery life it gives me)
| Brakenshire wrote:
| Does Linux work well on those M chip Apple laptops?
| psanford wrote:
| Based on the progress Asahi Linux has made in the last year,
| I expect linux to be a reasonable option (for folks who are
| comfortable with a Linux installer) within the next 12
| months.
| umanwizard wrote:
| It "works", but not really well enough for general use.
| There's a project called Asahi Linux dedicated to getting it
| to work, and it does run, but a lot of peripheral hardware
| (Bluetooth, accelerated graphics) is still not supported.
|
| I'm not aware of any distribution other than Asahi (which is
| based on Arch) that can boot at all.
| nicce wrote:
| https://asahilinux.org/2022/03/asahi-linux-alpha-release/
|
| And "What works" section.
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| Oh funny I was looking at this the other day, didn't realize it
| was a new thing. Their laptops smare tempting. I assume they are
| better built than the mass produced stuff.
| kllrnohj wrote:
| > I assume they are better built than the mass produced stuff.
|
| I wouldn't assume that. I'd assume this _is_ a mass produced
| stuff going through an ODM like Clevo.
|
| If it isn't, there certainly isn't any reason to expect
| system76 to be capable of better production than the "mass
| produced stuff" coming out of eg Dell's XPS line or Lenovo's
| Carbon line. Especially when those companies have decades of
| experience and tooling investments here.
|
| But I also don't think the dismissal of "mass produced stuff"
| is really even fair here. The Clevo and other ODM designs have
| been quite good for a long time now.
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| good to see linux being sold in laptop out of the box. this
| means, hopefully that bugs that the linux community was used to,
| because everyone knew it and didn't bother fixing are getting
| fixed because linus managed to break Pop os in the first command.
|
| stuff like what kde is doing with their "15-Minute Bugs" are
| great initiatives. this will definitely help the overall linux
| software become more rugged and idiot friendly
| encryptluks2 wrote:
| It is good to see it but a bit ridiculous to see companies
| marking up the pricing just to install an OS which is pretty
| simple to do with almost any hardware.
| tux2bsd wrote:
| It's an added context switch. It takes a small amount of time
| and the end user has the convenience of not needing to do it,
| the end user chooses to pay for that.
|
| disclaimer: I've never touched a s76 machine.
|
| I would never run an OS that was pre-installed as the install
| image can't be verified.
| trelane wrote:
| Honestly, I've only ever run the pre-installed OS on one
| machine from them (my gaming Thelio). I buy them for the
| support both after- and before-purchase. I.e. because they
| do great support and provide machines that actually support
| Linux.
|
| I used to not have the option of buying Linux hardware, and
| it was terrible. I don't understand why anybody does that
| to themselves these days, and I sincerely hope we never go
| back to having to buy Windows hardware, slapping Linux on
| top of it, and hoping that enough devs had the _exact_ same
| hardware to minimize the glitches.
| acomjean wrote:
| That's the whole point of it. You get excellent tested
| comparability and support. For Linux users like me it's worth
| the money. I can have Linux and not worry about if my
| hardware is compatible with the default install.
|
| You are paying for support and to make it easy.
|
| But scale, as they sell more one assumes the markup will
| decrease.
| trelane wrote:
| System76 also adds custom, open source firmware
| (https://support.system76.com/articles/open-firmware-
| systems/) and ensures the hardware works by coordinating
| with the ODM and writing custom drivers if necessary
| (https://support.system76.com/articles/system76-driver/)
|
| Pretending to be a system integrator by buying proprietary
| Windows hardware and slapping Linux on it is a mug's game.
|
| They were going to start building their own laptops at one
| point. I'm not sure what happened with that. Of course,
| nobody except Apple really builds their own hardware these
| days either (hence the term ODM).
| sshine wrote:
| > good to see linux being sold in laptop out of the box.
|
| I remember knowing that if I got an IBM ThinkPad, it probably
| had good Linux driver support.
|
| I still make the assumption that Lenovo ThinkPads have better
| Linux driver support because hackers prefer them. But I
| honestly have no idea if that's true any more.
| alpaca128 wrote:
| Mine needs an unofficial wifi driver or the connection will
| just die every 20 minutes, and the NVidia Optimus hardware is
| a nightmare.
|
| I like the laptop overall but I'll never touch NVidia stuff
| again. Drivers are among the things I just don't want to deal
| with.
| tux2bsd wrote:
| Various, generally older, ThinkPads are popular in the *BSD
| communities too.
| TingPing wrote:
| Better than average but the majority of laptops use the same
| hardware and drivers. A bad wifi chip here or an odd
| fingerprint reader there are the majority of issues.
| jart wrote:
| A reasonably priced upscale Linux laptop with open firmware,
| named after my favorite animal, and a mechanical keyboard. Wow I
| can't remember the last time some product came along that sounds
| so perfect for me. I really want to try this because there's no
| way this can't be awesome. It's like they read our minds and put
| everything we wanted but never imagined we'd get in one product.
| dharmaturtle wrote:
| I believe the mechanical keyboard you speak of is an external
| device (and not part of the laptop frame).
| I_am_tiberius wrote:
| Isn't that laptop produced by another company and just rebranded
| by system76?
| lhl wrote:
| The chassis is I believe a L140PU:
| https://www.clevo.com.tw/clevo_prodetail.asp?id=1599&lang=en
|
| If I were buying this model I wouldn't mind buying it from
| System76 if you're not ultra-price sensitive to show support
| for their coreboot and open-source EC development.
|
| The Intel i7-1255U is about 20% slower than an Intel i7-1260P
| or an AMD 5800U, so it's performance isn't bad, but personally
| I'd rather have a >16:9 >1080p >300 nit display (similar
| alternatives with better displays: Tuxedo Pulse 15 Gen2,
| Slimbook Executive 14, Framework 12th Gen)
| sweettea wrote:
| Clevo: though they work closely with them to ensure all the
| hardware is Linux-supported.
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17039414
| trelane wrote:
| Also, the firmware is totally different, and open source.
| https://support.system76.com/articles/open-firmware-systems/
|
| So, Clevo is the ODM, just like Compal and some others are
| for Dell: https://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/vn/corporate~corp-
| comm~en/d...
| adsteel_ wrote:
| One design choice I love here is having the track pad centered on
| home row, instead of centered on the laptop body. Lenovo has the
| same orientation. I recently had to switch back to a body
| centered track pad for work and now I'm aware of the contortions
| my right hand has to perform in order to type while also resting
| on the laptop. It slows me down and increases typos. For anyone
| who types with all 10 fingers, a home row centered track pad is
| the only serious option.
| hedora wrote:
| I agree that the track pad should be centered under the home
| row, but it is just as important to me that the home row be
| centered under the screen!
|
| If you look at the top down picture of the keyboard above "tech
| specs", you'll see that this laptop fails on both accounts. :-(
| BillinghamJ wrote:
| A well designed trackpad will have virtually flawless palm
| rejection, which means it shouldn't matter. I'm not sure how
| that fares outside of Apple machines though.
| ksec wrote:
| Apple doesn't have flawless palm rejection, part of the
| reason why the larger trackpad on new MBP isn't loved by
| everyone.
| solarkraft wrote:
| I get enough ghost touches to be annoying on the 2020 Macbook
| Air and Pro. What device is supposed to be better?
| kibwen wrote:
| I have a System76 (not a Lemur, but surely the touchpad
| software is the same) and I've never once had a problem with
| palm rejection. For that matter, I never had a problem with
| palm rejection on any of the Windows laptops I used to use.
| Are there any laptops that _do_ have problems with palm
| rejection? AFAICT it seems like a solved problem (unlike, say
| "smart sleep", which is an unmitigated nightmare everywhere,
| including on Macs).
| vbuterin wrote:
| The "14 hours" is a huge exaggeration, but that's to be expected;
| every advertised battery life I've ever seen is a huge
| exaggeration. But I have to strongly vouch for this one; it's the
| first laptop I've seen that actually can actually last more than
| seven whole hours with Linux. Every other laptop I've tried lasts
| under four hours, even if it advertises twenty.
| jeffbee wrote:
| Well usually laptops don't come from the OEM with Linux, so if
| you slap Ubuntu on there and the power management stinks,
| that's on you.
|
| Laptops with practical 10+ hours battery life usually come with
| Linux from the factory. Eg the google Pixelbook Go, which gets
| about 10-12 hours on a battery half as large as the one we are
| discussing. The System76 has mostly just thrown a gigantic
| battery at the problem.
| siikanen__ wrote:
| My XPS 15 9570 happily lasts 10+ hours, even though it's
| already few years old now. Running Arch with nouveau and nvidia
| card disabled
| tssva wrote:
| I'm not a fan of having my laptop maker's logo plastered on the
| exterior of my laptop but it is unavoidable these days. The
| System76 logo on this laptop is an especially egregious example
| of this. It alone would prevent me from considering purchasing
| one. I'll be looking elsewhere next year when I am due to upgrade
| which is unfortunate because I am a fan of Pop!_OS and would
| otherwise have considered System76.
|
| Edit: A comment says the logo on the System76 laptop is an easy
| to remove sticker so this might be a non-issue.
| rst wrote:
| There are a bunch of sellers of laptop skins who will solve
| your problem for about 30 bucks. At least one (skinit) will let
| you give them an image to put on the back of your laptop.
| tssva wrote:
| I don't like skins or stickers on my laptop. Comment below
| says the logo is an easy to remove sticker in the System76
| case so it looks like it maybe a non-issue.
| lisnake wrote:
| Xiaomi laptops don't have any logo on the exterior, just clear
| slate. Looks very slick
| rawoke083600 wrote:
| The apple for poor ppl ! I love my xiaomi phone and their
| laptop looks amazing (maybe cause they look like macs)
| windthrown wrote:
| That's a fair stance but also worth mentioning that System76's
| logo on the Lemur laptop is a sticker and very easy to remove.
| I removed mine the first day I used it.
| tssva wrote:
| Thanks, good to know. That puts it back on the potential
| list.
| trelane wrote:
| You should ask them before buying. My galago and earlier
| laptops were painted on. They may be able to get you one
| that's not, so another good reason to ask.
| 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
| Put a black sticker over it and call it a day?
| mongol wrote:
| I question the judgement of the designers when I see such a
| large logo. Makes me hesitant about the overall quality. It
| looks cheap.
| jraph wrote:
| I consider it is a matter of taste. The large logo could
| also be a requirement from the marketing department.
|
| In this view, it should therefore not be a hint about the
| overall quality.
| rawoke083600 wrote:
| Just had a brain fart... remember in the 90s/2000s. trucks and
| cars would have stickers that read
|
| "This truck is tracked and protected by satellite" and have
| their numberplate painted on the roof.
|
| Would be 'somewat funny' if you get stickers like that for
| laptops
|
| 'This laptop is protected by satellite and rdfi' and have some
| random macaddrrss as part of sticker.
|
| This would be perfect to hide your ugly laptop logo :)
|
| ok who is buying and how many stickers you all want ??
| jbeard4 wrote:
| I have had this specific system for about a year, and I get about
| 4-5 hours battery life for my main use case, which is web
| development, zoom calls and remote computing with Remmina (RDP).
| One of the best things about it is the native support for Docker.
| Overall, I have been pretty happy with it, and will probably
| purchase from System76 again when it's time to upgrade.
|
| Happy to answer any questions anyone has about it.
| [deleted]
| jef_leppard wrote:
| I own a System 76 laptop (the Oryx) and ultimately bought a
| MacBook Air m1 to replace it. I'm not sure how many people know
| this, but S76 doesn't make their own hardware and instead uses
| repackaged Clevo laptops. These machines are cheap, ugly, and
| heavy. Nothing about them feels particularly high quality. They
| charge a premium price so I'd expected more and was disappointed.
| Knowing what I know now, I would have gotten a Framework laptop
| for a first class linux experience.
|
| All that said, PopOS is my distro of choice. They really got a
| lot right there IMO. If they can get it together on the hardware
| front, might be worth another look in the future.
| cpursley wrote:
| Nice form factor but it's hard to consider a notebook that's not
| Ryzen-based these days.
| g105b wrote:
| why?
| dijit wrote:
| Ryzen is beating intel quite hard for performance/watt (with
| the associated heat trade-off too).
|
| These are very core to the value proposition of laptops, so
| it makes sense and directly translates to longer battery and
| reduced fan noise.
| cpursley wrote:
| This. Heat and battery life.
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| I admit one of the big draws of the MacBookPro is the screen.
| Well that and the trackpad.
| sneak wrote:
| You forgot the CPU and the speakers, too. :)
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| Well, the M1 is great (I like mine, even if it took 6 months
| to arrive...), but my comment stands for older versions of
| the MBP with Intel inside.
| willfindlay wrote:
| I bought an Oryx Pro last year and the screen fell off after one
| day of use. Got a free replacement and the exact same thing
| happened. The next time I contacted customer support, they sent
| me some adhesive strips and told me that if I applied them to the
| back of the screen and pressed it back into place it shouldn't
| happen again. I asked them why they hadn't done this properly in
| the first place and they had no answer for me.
|
| I want to love System76. I really do. But the truth is that I
| don't think I will ever trust them again.
| unrealhoang wrote:
| Non-hiDPI display in 2022 is a non-starter. There's simply not
| enough pixels to display text correctly with full hd.
| prmoustache wrote:
| Only if you are used to hiDPI in the first place.
| tssva wrote:
| I have had laptops with hiDPI monitors in the past and
| currently have a laptop with a FHD screen. After having used
| both I consider a hiDPI monitor a waste of money and battery
| life for a 14" laptop.
| Macha wrote:
| as someone who regularly uses a 1080p windows laptop and an
| 1800p MacBook pro, it's certainly not the requirement for me it
| appears to be for you. It's an improvement, but so is the matte
| finish on my windows display
| chrisseaton wrote:
| I vaguely think my cheap college laptop display around 2006 was
| 1080 lines tall. How can it possibly be that some manufacturers
| haven't moved on since then?
| Macha wrote:
| Cheap 2006 laptop? Would have been 768p at best, maybe even
| 600p. Even Apple would happily sell you an 800p macbook
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_(2006%E2%80%932012))
| until 2012 and laptop GPUs of the era would struggle with a
| 1080p desktop.
| driverdan wrote:
| There were a lot of higher res laptops in that time period.
| They weren't everywhere which is why most people don't know
| about them.
| Macha wrote:
| They weren't "cheap college laptops" though.
|
| Here's a 2006 laptop review roundup:
| https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/best-laptops-of-2006/
|
| There's a 4:3 1680x1050 laptop there (a $2k machine,
| described as "doesn't come cheap") and the macbook pro
| (also starting at $2k) was 1440x900.
| [deleted]
| sshine wrote:
| Some people don't care as much about DPI.
|
| I personally got the third-cheapest 49" ultrawide.
|
| People's eyesights vary. I need big letters anyways.
| lelanthran wrote:
| > I personally got the third-cheapest 49" ultrawide.
|
| I'm shopping for ultawide right now, care to share the link
| of the monitor you got?
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Resolution doesn't change physical text size. They're
| independent. It makes text at the same physical size more
| readable. Which sounds like what you want?
| [deleted]
| sph wrote:
| The point of HiDPI is not having really small text, is
| doubling the scaling so text looks smooth instead of a
| pixelated, blocky mess.
|
| I thought it was a gimmick in 2015 before I got my first
| MBP, these days I can't go back and have my eyes bleed on
| 96 dpi. You don't even need full Retina, my 27" 4K screen
| looks gorgeous at double scaling.
|
| >150 dpi monitors are the second best tech upgrade of this
| millennium after the SSD. Yet, there's still people these
| days that will try to convince you their 5400 rpm disk is
| fast enough, just because they have never experienced
| modern hardware.
| tjoff wrote:
| It's fine, I'd rather have 16:10 or even better 3:2 than hidpi.
| jacooper wrote:
| I have a 24 1080P ultrawide, and its perfectly fine. So I think
| 15 with 1080p is going to be pretty good.
| driverdan wrote:
| Have you tried a 24" screen that's higher res? You won't want
| to go back to 1080 after.
| jacooper wrote:
| You are probably correct, My main monitor is a cheap
| Ultrawide. However even if I used a 27 4K display, 15" with
| 1080p is almost the same sharpness as 27 4K.
|
| Its why I don't really see a need for higher than 1080p on
| mobile phones, can you even see the difference?
| pmontra wrote:
| I'm fine with my 15.6" 1080p screen. The reasons I'm not
| considering this laptop is the lack of 3 physical buttons on
| the touchpad. It's Linux after all. Left select text, middle
| paste, no need of ctrl-c and ctrl-v. It's much faster and I'm
| using it all the time. Btw, I disable touch to click because it
| tends to move the pointer and generate misclicks.
| tejohnso wrote:
| I'm with you on the lack of physical buttons. That's a no go.
|
| For me the lack of pointing stick is also a no go. My first
| laptop over twenty years ago was a Toshiba with a pointing
| stick, and I've used Thinkpads ever since.
| ptspts wrote:
| I'm explicitly looking for laptops with full HD display
| resolution, not more. I prefer the crisp pixels of low-
| resolution bitmap fonts.
| sneak wrote:
| This seems to be a tradition in the linux-laptop world.
| "1080p ought to be enough for anyone!"
|
| Use a 13" 4k for a few weeks and try to go back. Actual high-
| dpi screens are where it's at.
| stonewareslord wrote:
| What a tiring trope. I use a high resolution macbook for
| work and a 1366x768 13 inch laptop for personal use. Like
| OP, I greatly prefer the font blockiness the latter
| provides especially in terminals.
|
| And yes, I've tried smooth fonts and FixedSys/Less Perfect
| DOS-VGA on both and prefer blocky ones every time. High res
| screens love to use smoothing and subpixel rendering and I
| very much prefer none of it.
|
| Edit: point being if you switch to high res displays, you
| won't always like it more
| sneak wrote:
| > _High res screens love to use smoothing and subpixel
| rendering and I very much prefer none of it._
|
| Quite the opposite! These are hacks for low-res displays
| to make type look better. Sufficiently high resolution
| displays disable these because they are high resolution
| enough that your eye perceives a smooth line/edge already
| without having to resort to hacks to avoid stairsteps.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| If we're talking about actual smoothing, anti-aliasing,
| then that's not a hack, that's a necessity for non-bitmap
| fonts until you reach extreme resolutions. If you want
| your eye to perceive a stairstep as a smooth line you
| need to start talking about 16K screens.
| lelanthran wrote:
| > Non-hiDPI display in 2022 is a non-starter. There's simply
| not enough pixels to display text correctly with full hd.
|
| 1080 on a 14" screen is not, in any way, going to slow your
| work down compared to hiDPI on a 14".
|
| You're still going to display the same number of visual
| elements at 14", after all.
| viraptor wrote:
| I assure you it's enough to display text correctly in 1080p on
| 15" which is not considered hidpi. You may like hidpi, and
| that's fine. But let's keep shifting personal standards and
| what's practically usable straight.
| speedgoose wrote:
| It may be difficult to consider such a laptop after using one
| with a better screen though. I think that's his point.
| ginko wrote:
| Meh, I switch between a Macbook Air M1 and a Linux desktop
| with 24" 1920x1200 screens and it's fine after tweaking the
| font hinting a bit.
| solarkraft wrote:
| FWIW I find low DPI screens uncomfortably blurry
| nicce wrote:
| It might be enough to show the text, but there is still no
| enough space on the screen. On 1440p disply for example there
| is so much more to run apps side by side.
| ThatMedicIsASpy wrote:
| How good is your eyesight? 150%? This is a 14" screen.
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| Ironically my need for glasses due to old age means I get
| magnification and can read smaller fonts on smaller
| screens!
| nicce wrote:
| I am using 100% on my 1440p 14" without problems. I guess
| good then.
| unrealhoang wrote:
| That's just simply facts, you can read more here:
| https://tonsky.me/blog/monitors/
| rawoke083600 wrote:
| Lamborghini cars are faster than most jeeps. Facts, does
| not mean its a overall better driving experience or that
| jeeps 'simply' are not driveable.
| kllrnohj wrote:
| I like your reasoning here but lol at your specific
| examples. Nobody really considers Lambos _or_ Jeeps as
| being particularly drivable. Lambos try to kill you and
| Jeeps rattle your brain.
| rawoke083600 wrote:
| meh your right ! At least about about Jeeps :p
|
| I have an old 2008 jeep rubicon. Its basically a nice red
| tractor with aircon and radio.
|
| BUT I feel like OptimusPrime(Transformers) everytime i
| get into my jeep to go buy groceries !
| bitL wrote:
| Lambos are amazingly drivable at speeds over 150mph...
| Just anything below feels like driving a shaker or rodeo.
| alpaca128 wrote:
| 1080p on a 14 inch laptop is the same density as 4k on my
| 28 inch screen. I have to try really hard to see any
| imperfections. Under real-world conditions suboptimal
| lighting & reflections are a bigger issue on a laptop
| screen than some sub-pixel features of text.
| viraptor wrote:
| It may not be perfect and if I get my face close enough I
| can see the pixels, but that doesn't make it not correct.
| The text is displayed, I can read the letters without
| issues - that means they're displayed correctly.
|
| I'm using a different hidpi display as well, and don't
| really care for the difference. The link does discuss real
| issues, but does not prove anything about "text displayed
| correctly".
| forgotpwd16 wrote:
| The blog post is good in showing that the "non-starter"
| because cannot "display text correctly" doesn't hold.
| Specifically it talks about how Macbooks by default utilize
| fractional scaling that messes up pixel-crisp text. Gonna
| bet that there's a significant overlap between those that
| call for ridiculously for their size high res displays yet
| are fine with those defaults.
| divan wrote:
| Probably 'correctly' is not the right word here.
|
| I often code for 12+ hours straight and the only way to keep up
| with such a stress on eyes is to use bigger fonts and not focus
| too much on text (i.e. engage in a slightly defocused vision).
|
| Which means I never use small fonts, though I see a lot of
| people who code on 13-15 inch screens with super tiny fonts.
|
| Naturally, once you have to use large fonts you end up using
| large screens (I'm currently on 49 inch ultra-wide Samsung 32:9
| screen) and it's the best setup for coding I can imagine.
|
| Still when coding on a laptop, I sacrifice window splits and
| stuff like that but not the font size. So Macbook Pro resultion
| is even too high for me, and I'm quite happy with FullHD
| laptops as well.
| jwmoz wrote:
| You should take breaks.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| Yes but that doesn't change the argument very much. Even if
| breaks mitigate strain very well, I'd still want to
| minimize the strain in the first place, in the vast
| majority of situations.
| rajamaka wrote:
| Frankly if you are often coding for 12 hours straight you
| have plenty more serious problems going on that monitor
| resolution and font size can fix.
| divan wrote:
| If you're picturing a teenager and/or workaholic unaware of
| life behind the monitor, it's not the case. But thank you
| for the concern :)
| [deleted]
| hvis wrote:
| I suppose they wouldn't be able to boast 14 hour long life with
| a better screen.
|
| Definitely agree, though.
| temac wrote:
| Do Linux distros support hiDPI including mixed DPI (e.g. with a
| hiDPI laptop screen and a low DPI external one) well ? Under
| macOS this works really fine, under Windows this is half
| garbage.
| Bromeo wrote:
| This is solved well in Wayland, with X11 this is not as
| straight forward. Wayland comes with some other issues
| though.
| rawoke083600 wrote:
| Its Saturday and I got some fighting words leftover from
| the week/s
|
| Using solved and wayland i. the same sentence is just not
| right !
|
| Source: nvidia+intel laptop owner.
|
| Wayland+Nvidia: Having it work sometimes under some
| conditions are not the same as solved. X11 is not flawless
| either but i feel it works more times under more
| conditions.
|
| Ok rant over, sorry for sounding like a d*k :)
| TingPing wrote:
| Nvidia is the issue. Maybe another year and they'll keep
| improving their driver.
| rawoke083600 wrote:
| True !
| jeroenhd wrote:
| Open sourcing part of the driver might definitely help
| other projects support Nvidia's terrible software better,
| though I haven't seen much about laptop support for those
| drivers. If the closed source crap is kept in sync, at
| least the system will be more stable.
| medo-bear wrote:
| first world problems
| rawoke083600 wrote:
| I think this is a personal preference rather than a 'it just
| can not do it' situation.
|
| Been programming for decades on 1080p and before 1080 on 1024.
| My eyesight is quite bad (-5.85) and i can see perfectly fine
| on 1080p. Sure 2k or 4k might be better. But thats true for 8k
| as well.
| sph wrote:
| HDD -> SSD is an enormous difference. SSD -> NVMe, better but
| not so dramatic.
|
| 1080p -> 4K is an enormous difference. 4K -> 8K, better but
| not so dramatic.
|
| The rate of improvement is not linear.
| rawoke083600 wrote:
| No one said it was. But for some people for some problems
| what they have is definitely good enough.
|
| Example: hdd to ssd (huge quantitative improvement if you
| measure speeds). As you rightly said.
|
| To my eyes(bad eyes) 1080p is enough, 4k might look
| slightly better but no way near in the same ballpark as hdd
| to ssd. Maybe its the fonts, workflow or fontsize i use but
| 4k fonts does not not x5 or x10 better than 1080p fonts. I
| absolutely sure there are ppl that, that is true for
| though. YMMV _shrug_
| gfrff wrote:
| For a laptop, I see diminishing returns at 3200x1800.
| That's as low as I'm go. 4k is preferred and now common.
| I don't need more.
|
| Ironically, almost all phones I look at have more pixels
| than I need. Laptops are only recently easily available
| with reasonable pixel density. For a while, common phones
| had higher resolution (not just density) than laptops.
| unrealhoang wrote:
| Using 4k at 2x scale, you have exactly the same desktop
| space as 1080p but with 4x more pixels to render your
| fonts.
| sph wrote:
| I have bad eyes but apparently not as bad as yours. Let's
| go ask a blind man if they prefer 1080p or 4K, that'll
| settle it.
|
| If you don't see the difference, it doesn't mean there's
| none.
| rawoke083600 wrote:
| Huh !? No one said 'the difference is not there'.
|
| I said the difference is not meaningful enough (for me
| and many other ppl, if i read the comments) and that
| stating that 1080p 'is simply a none starter' and it
| 'cannot' render text 'correctly' it not true. It can
| render it more correctly yes.
|
| To be really annoying even 8k wont render text 100%
| correctly since if there is a circle like section example
| 'p' or 'b' no pixel based device would be able to give a
| 'true rendition' of the symbol since you need basically
| infinite precision to correctly display a circle like
| concept on gridbased scheme(i.e pixel based display)
|
| Sure a 4k or 8k will approximate it better but(and this
| is really my point
|
| 4k or 8k wil be better(yes) but 1080p it sufficient for a
| good subset of ppl.
|
| Not really sure how the blind man helps either side of
| this discussion ?
| bbarnett wrote:
| The whole argument is silly. People coded on 21" CRT and
| LCD monitors at 640x480 even, and yes ... they still
| live!
|
| While higher resolutions look nicer, they provide no real
| value for a console. I've had 4x xterms on my desktop for
| 30+ years.
|
| There is zero "extra space" with higher dpi. None.
|
| One sad downside of things looking nicer, is the battery
| cost.
|
| UHD vs HD means 4x the pixels, and a GPU rendering all
| those pixels. If you want a 14hr battery, and light
| weight, you won't be getting it with a UHD screen in
| 2022.
| rawoke083600 wrote:
| yup !
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| Pointing at the GPU is an excuse. That thing doesn't need
| to go over 1% load to make good text happen.
| mejutoco wrote:
| Not OP but if you don't see the difference why pay for
| it? It will also be more taxing for the graphic card or
| cpu to update 4k, I believe.
| mciancia wrote:
| I's that just another rebrand from clevo or something like that
| or they actually did something on their own?
| haspok wrote:
| "...with 14 hours of battery life" - yes, maybe, but did you see
| it comes with a large battery (73Wh instead of the usual ~55Wh)?
| Thinkpad X1s can do ~10-12 hours on the smaller battery. So this
| is nothing to brag about really. 12th Gen Intel is still way
| behind the M1, unfortunately.
|
| I also don't get the FHD (16:9) screen, it seems like the Clevo
| shell has not been updated from past years... :(
| [deleted]
| jmclnx wrote:
| When the time comes for a new laptop, I would get a System76. The
| fact they somewhat disable Intel ME is a big plus for me. But I
| know I would miss the trackpoint.
|
| My only main requirement is the hardware needs to support
| Slackware and Open/Net BSD.
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