[HN Gopher] Microrobots can brush and floss teeth in a proof-of-...
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Microrobots can brush and floss teeth in a proof-of-concept study
Author : geox
Score : 202 points
Date : 2022-07-06 13:36 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (penntoday.upenn.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (penntoday.upenn.edu)
| Jistern wrote:
| Victerius wrote:
| Nanomachines, son! They brush my teeth in response to
| mastication.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| Don't masticate with your mouth open
| [deleted]
| linsomniac wrote:
| ProTip: I went from rarely flossing to basically every day with
| "this one weird trick": I now floss my teeth in the shower. I
| like staying in the shower a little longer, so the 2 minutes went
| from chore to luxury. And the amount of food I remove on a daily
| basis is astonishing!
| matsemann wrote:
| Isn't the science on flossing not showing any benefit?
|
| Edit: looked it up. No solid scientific evidence flossing
| helps.
| Aaronstotle wrote:
| Only floss the teeth you want to keep
| justinpombrio wrote:
| That's what I thought. Then I tried not flossing, and my gums
| got unhealthy and started bleeding a lot in like two weeks.
| My teeth aren't unusual; I wouldn't expect to be that much of
| an outlier; so not sure what was going on in those studies
| that I also had heard about.
| AussieWog93 wrote:
| Bro, you don't need a paper to demonstrate the benefit of
| flossing.
|
| Just get right in there at the back with some decent floss
| (Oral B Satin Tape is good), and taste the rotten, disgusting
| food you remove. That's what the people around you are
| smelling every day when you exhale.
| matsemann wrote:
| Don't be an ass, don't imply my breath smells. Be better
| than that.
| doublerabbit wrote:
| You can brush your teeth in the shower too.
| uejfiweun wrote:
| This is actually genius, I'm gonna start doing this as well.
| Thank you for the great idea.
| decebalus1 wrote:
| Your comment reminded me of
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMQTg4Y0YT0
| lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
| I get the comedy but now I'm wondering why he ordered a pair
| of chinos if he doesn't plan to get out of the shower.
| LewisVerstappen wrote:
| Wait so, what do these microrobots actually look like? Are they
| just small black bristles that you put in your mouth?
| hanklazard wrote:
| Yeah, the name is really misleading, if I'm understanding the
| tech correctly.
| Silica6149 wrote:
| Iron nanoparticles controlled by a magnetic field it seems
| like.
|
| The thing I'm curious about though is, how do they remove all
| the iron particles afterward? Would I just get a month's dose
| of iron each time this thing brushes my teeth?
| upsidesinclude wrote:
| Suck on a big bar magnet!
|
| Really, that would do. Better still would be an electro
| magnetic retainer. Then the particles cloud be captured and
| returned to a container.
|
| I doubt iron nano particles would be reusable, but you
| wouldn't want them down the sink as they would likely be
| nucleation points for rust
|
| Is anyone familiar with the health consequences of inhaling
| or otherwise ingesting nano iron?
| afterburner wrote:
| More magnets?
| MrYellowP wrote:
| I don't recall where this story is from, but I've read it
| somewhere.
|
| It's a story about a guy who invents _shaving microbots_ , which
| you apply in your face, who do all the work. Iirc they were on a
| gel, though ultimately that doesn't matter. At some point they
| supposedly deactivate themselves for some reason I've forgotten,
| to prevent them from doing harm in case they enter the body.
|
| The end of the story is that the inventor, who kept using his
| microbots, eventually died of unknown cause. The autopsy showed
| that he had pneumoconiosis/silicosis, aka a dry, dusty lung.
|
| Because he kept inhaling them. Microdroplets of liquid,
| containing microbots.
|
| I believe this story isn't far fetched. Imagine you have
| thousands of these teeth brushing bots in your mouth. If you have
| some on the back of your throat, you will eventually have them in
| your lungs. All it takes to accumulate enough of them to cause
| issues is repeated use and time.
| fileeditview wrote:
| I guess this is the first step to nanosites[1] from "Diamond Age"
| by Neal Stephenson.
|
| [1] https://en.gyaanipedia.com/wiki/Nanosite
| prepend wrote:
| I've been waiting, since reading that book, for nanobots that
| brush my teeth, trim my hair, shave, etc so I wake up every
| morning and not need to do this stuff.
| Chris2048 wrote:
| Wait, news on _actual_ irl Drexlerian nano?
|
| > may one day..
|
| oh, nevermind. Microbots "may one day" do shit, not "can".
| sillycube wrote:
| peterlk wrote:
| This is really neat. But I remain skeptical
|
| > In both instances, a catalytic reaction drives the
| nanoparticles to produce antimicrobials that kill harmful oral
| bacteria on site.
|
| So, what happens if I swallow this stuff that I'm putting in my
| mouth?
| system2 wrote:
| This is probably one of the worst visual representation I've ever
| seen.
| samstave wrote:
| So as an aside; Ciliac Disease is caused by the body falsely
| thinking [this was that] and attacking its own internals...
|
| SO...
|
| Lets assume that you add these and then they get ingested (which
| ALWAYS happens in brushing teeth) --> long term "micro-biome-
| biotics" affect on gut biome)
|
| Gut biomes are the most important health aspect for nutrition we
| should be plugging AI into...
|
| This seems like it will result in not-good outcomes.... Imagine
| programming "toothpaste" such that the bots that ARE ingested
| devour/destroy/attack/plant-payloads on cells in the system...
|
| ---
|
| Future Bio-Cyber-Nutrition attacks:
|
| A powder that is applied to a food substance that survives heat,
| cooking ; results in the bio-breakdown or attack of the
| individual.
|
| Level III: A recon biometrix that can be ingested and give the
| gut bio of a target.... in order to create a specific attack
| vector.
|
| Levvel IV: an agent who can determine dietary habits
|
| Level VI: Spore attributed to specific diets.
|
| ---
|
| Cyber warfare is not just computers ; its protein folding...
|
| When we were "folding proteins" for health.... Health can be - OR
| + <-- When we use the term "for health" ... it is ofr hte '-' <--
| We are designing proteins to kill. Not heal. UNLESS you're Thiel.
| neonological wrote:
| kleer001 wrote:
| Don't get too excited. It's
|
| >> ... a proof-of-concept study...
| abdullahkhalids wrote:
| Can anyone recommend an electric toothbrush? I have always used a
| regular manual one, but lots of people including a dentist have
| recommended an electric one. Wanna see what the hype is about.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| I've used regular $10-$25 electric tooth brush for a decade and
| assumed they're good enough.
|
| I've gotten Phillips Sonicare for holiday, and understanding
| that this is anecdotal evidence, I am _shocked_ at its
| increased ability to dislodge food from the crevices. I could
| swear that sometimes the vibration it puts on the tooth,
| dislodges food from places it 's not yet directly touching,
| just through the vibration through the tooth, which never
| happened with cheaper electric brushes. Overall, my teeth feel
| far cleaner afterwards, kinda like after the dental hygienist
| is done. So it gets my support, expensive as it may be.
| throwamon wrote:
| > Phillips Sonicare
|
| Which of them? There are many models, right?
| feet wrote:
| Most of them operate the same way when you consider just
| the vibrating on the tooth part. They differentiate the
| models with extra features like timers and Bluetooth or NFC
| brush heads and whatnot
| moffkalast wrote:
| The cheapest model is already most of the way there, though
| the higher end models do clean at twice the frequency so
| those might be somewhat better.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| It appears to me that they they are all "basically good
| enough" and very different to the $10-$25 electric brushes.
| My wife has fancy, I have basic model, and honestly we
| can't really tell the difference.
|
| I don't really find value in timers, beeps, bluetooth, etc.
| whateveracct wrote:
| The cheap Oral B one is fine in my book. I've gone through a
| couple (battery slows down over the years). Honestly the no1
| feature of an electric toothbrush is the timer (30s x4).
| sudofail wrote:
| Philips Sonicare is the way to go. Lot of different options,
| but they're all great.
| whartung wrote:
| It's been awhile, but back when I tried one I didn't care for
| the Sonicare. Simply it made my hand numb.
| moffkalast wrote:
| Haha yeah it takes a week or two to get fully used to it, I
| know a few people who just couldn't stomach it.
| arnejenssen wrote:
| Philips sonicare + Waterpik flosser. Sensodyne Repair&Protect
| (has NOVAMIN that restores the teeth)
| bl_valance wrote:
| Oral-B Pro 1000, don't even look at the more "premium"
| versions, all it has is extra bells-and-whistles like bluetooth
| that really don't anything to its basic function.
| tcoff91 wrote:
| The oral-b ones are very good. Sonicare's have big reliability
| issues in my experience.
| downrightmike wrote:
| Wasn't there a Professor in Florida I think that introduced a new
| plasmid to the bacteria normally in our mouth and proved to
| prevent tooth decay? I've tried to look for it, but haven't been
| able to find it again.
| ComputerCat wrote:
| I wonder if in the future this could be used to help care for
| people in long term hospital stays who are unable to brush/floss,
| or people who require at home care. Very interesting idea but I
| think it will take a long time for the general public to adopt
| this tech.
| colordrops wrote:
| No thanks on putting nano-particles in my mouth.
| todd8 wrote:
| This was envisioned in a science fiction story or novel decades
| ago, but I can't remember where I saw it! It might have been a
| novel by Robert Heilein. It was just mentioned in passing in the
| story, but since that time I've wondered if it will ever be
| realized; I thought it might take the form of a small robot about
| the size of a June bug that would slowly crawl around in one's
| mouth while we were asleep.
| 14 wrote:
| As a health care worker this would be great for very fragile or
| palliative clients where brushing effectively just isn't
| possible. Fragile clients will often do a poor job or if you help
| them they don't always tolerate how hard and long you need to
| brush to be effective. Not to even mention flossing. And with
| palliative patients they can often be bed bound and unconscious
| to you can't really get in with a toothbrush and water and brush
| properly. Instead they get a small piece of foam attached to a
| stick basically and you rub it around their mouth and get any big
| chunks out. Very poor effectiveness. For me good mouth care for
| the palliative clients would be really nice to see.
| gwbas1c wrote:
| If you're young, don't laugh.
|
| Once I turned 40 my dental hygienists really spent a lot of time
| educating me on how to properly brush my teeth. It really
| requires delicate care. (Remember, most of our ancestors didn't
| live to be old enough to need delicate dental hygiene.)
|
| If something like this works, it'll be wonderful. Carefully
| cleaning my teeth when I'm half asleep is not fun.
| throwamon wrote:
| > most of our ancestors didn't live to be old enough to need
| delicate dental hygiene
|
| They also didn't consume so much tooth-destroying garbage as we
| do.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| I think we consume 10-20 times as much sugar as people even
| 100 years ago. It's pretty crazy, although white bread isn't
| great for your teeth either since it's only one step away
| from sugar.
| moffkalast wrote:
| Then again, medieval bread that was cut with sand wasn't
| any better for teeth either.
| safeimp wrote:
| I turned 40 a few years ago and finally moved over to an
| electric toothbrush and my dentist has noticed improvements.
|
| Ultimately an electric is similar to a human but I like that
| it's consistent. Consistent pressure on my teeth and consistent
| time in each quadrant as well.
| bmau5 wrote:
| If it makes you feel better most people don't brush their teeth
| correctly (supposed to hold toothbrush at a 45 degree angle
| along the tooth/gum line). I think there's another future where
| brushing and flossing largely become obsolete. If we could
| develop a more effective mouthwash tailored to restoring each
| persons oral microbiome we could likely reduce the need for
| brushing and flossing (and instead replace it with a daily
| rinse). A lot easier than half asleep brushing!
| thfuran wrote:
| >Remember, most of our ancestors didn't live to be old enough
| to need delicate dental hygiene.)
|
| Really low historical life expectancy figures are mostly due to
| extremely high infant and childhood mortality as well as higher
| mortality in childbirth. It's not like adults were elderly at
| 40.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| Yep, if you lived til 16 you could easily and not
| surprisingly live to 60, after that it goes down hill pretty
| fast for most people without modern medicine...They didn't
| have a lot of retirement plans back then unless you were
| lucky enough to have some kids that wanted to keep grandpa
| around.
| bmau5 wrote:
| This is very interesting and has a lot of potential, especially
| for people who struggle to brush their teeth, but I think there's
| another future where brushing and flossing largely become
| obsolete. If we could develop a more effective mouthwash tailored
| to restoring each persons oral microbiome we could likely reduce
| the need for brushing and flossing and instead replace it with a
| daily mouth rinse that clears out food debris and selectively
| targets pathogenic bacteria while promoting healthy species.
|
| I'm a bit biased, though, because this is something we're working
| towards building at my company down the road.
| throwaway4837 wrote:
| Wouldn't the mouthwash need abrasive particles as well? Part of
| why Listerine doesn't replace brushing and flossing is because
| it has a much smaller mechanical component in the washing
| process. The physical rubbing of bristles and wire through and
| around the teeth creates the physical abrasion that is
| necessary to remove large films of plaque.
|
| I imagine without any sort of abrasive, the liquid would need
| to be dangerously strong to remove tougher plaque.
| Retric wrote:
| Preventing plaque formation avoids the need to remove it.
|
| Actually accomplishing that seems unlikely, but not
| impossible.
| klipt wrote:
| A keto diet without sugar or starch should prevent most
| plaque formation, shouldn't it?
| Retric wrote:
| No, a balanced keto diet might be moderately better than
| a normal diet in terms of plaque, but even wild cats
| living on a nearly 100% meat diet still get dental
| plaque.
| rhinoceraptor wrote:
| There has been work done is creating GM S. mutans that
| don't produce biofilms, and that would replace your native
| S. mutans. It could be done by just brushing your teeth
| with a toothbrush treated with the bacteria so it would
| cost pennies per treatment.
| [deleted]
| Retric wrote:
| That's a long way from actually replacing brushing and
| flossing.
|
| For one thing, streptococcus sobrinus is more closely
| associated with cavity formation than streptococcus
| mutans. But more importantly these biofilms are a
| significant evolutionary advantage so this replacement is
| an unstable situation. Some positive benefits are likely,
| just don't assume it can work alone.
| arrosenberg wrote:
| Biofilms are an evolutionary advantage for the bacteria,
| not the host. Biofilms make the colony much, much harder
| to kill. How advantageous can it be to the host anyways,
| if 4 out of 5 dentists recommends obliterating it 2-3x a
| day?
| dataangel wrote:
| They may indirectly be an advantage for the host because
| if the bacteria aren't competitive they will get replaced
| by bacteria that are. The devil you know...
| godelski wrote:
| Yes. Talk to your dental hygienist and they will confirm
| this. Mine told me a story recently of when she was in school
| they were graded on how little plaque they had on their
| teeth. So her and all her friends did everything they could.
| New toothbrushes, flossing, the metal scrapers, and helping
| each other. No one removed everything and I guess that's the
| point of the lesson. Plaque builds up quickly and over time.
| What harms teeth and gums is far more than microbes.
|
| But that also seems like where nanobots would come in. If you
| could have a mouth wash that had nanobots that would perform
| that abrasive scrubbing and then decay (and not leave
| byproducts) then it would help and could replace brushing and
| flossing. But definitely mouthwash is nowhere near the
| effectiveness of brushing nor flossing. Would be a cool
| future, but I suspect we're still a long way from that.
| rhinoceraptor wrote:
| Why not just continue the work that's already been done in
| developing GM strains of S. mutans that don't produce biofilms?
| legalcorrection wrote:
| This doesn't sound possible. A big component of oral hygiene is
| removing the relatively large chunks of food that are hiding
| invisibly between your teeth. If you leave them there, they
| will rot and smell bad and cause other issues like infections.
| You need a physical object like the bristles of a tooth brush
| and/or floss to physically dislodge the bits of food. That's
| why every culture developed some way to clean their teeth.
| cheschire wrote:
| GP did say "replace" but they also said "reduce" so I'm
| thinking they meant replace the majority of brushing, but
| probably not all of it. If they had an effective way of
| removing lettuce from teeth chemically, I'd be afraid of side
| effects.
| bmau5 wrote:
| Yes, thank you for catching this. As the comment above
| pointed out there will still be a need for removing larger
| food particles and hard to reach areas, but ideally with
| the addition of the mouthwash/intervention I'm mentioning
| we could drastically reduce the incidence of oral disease.
| uoaei wrote:
| It doesn't seem far-fetched to imagine a chewing-gum-like
| substance which achieves this.
| Victerius wrote:
| Like a dishwasher but for teeth?
| coryrc wrote:
| Some people rarely brush their teeth and never get cavities.
| Some people brush thrice daily and floss and still get
| cavities and need root canals.
|
| The working theory is we could all be in the first group with
| the right bacteria in our mouth.
| throwaway4837 wrote:
| Those two groups are likely differentiated on diet. For
| starters, diet can overload your mouth with complex and
| simple sugars, but diet can also determine the bacterial
| makeup of your mouth.
| 13of40 wrote:
| No idea where it eventually led, but I read about work
| done back in the 80s to vaccinate against the bacteria
| that cause tooth decay. That suggests that some people
| might have natural immunity to them.
| maxerickson wrote:
| It's also pretty likely that there is variation in enamel
| formation and hardness (driven by genetic differences).
| bmau5 wrote:
| That's it exactly. Some beneficial species play an active
| role in suppressing the pathogenic species (those that
| release acid or cause gum disease) and have other benefits
| including helping us break down dietary nitrate into nitric
| oxide, which is critical for heart/brain health.
|
| My company tests/researches the oral microbiome and we're
| starting to discover the signatures of what puts people in
| one group vs. the other, with hopes of helping develop more
| personalized approaches down the road, but for now helping
| people understand what will work best for them.
|
| Here's my company for anyone who is interested in learning
| more: https://www.bristlehealth.com/
| rkagerer wrote:
| What's preventing you from shipping to Canada, and any
| plans to expand outside the US in the future?
| comeondude wrote:
| This is very cool.
|
| What's your take on xytiol gums? Think they're effective
| in changing our oral microdiome for the better?
| jrootabega wrote:
| I'm also curious about this, but unfortunately I think
| that's where it will end for me in practice. Even if
| xylitol is effective, it seems the xylitol you'll get in
| any products (at least in the US) is going to be
| industrial byproduct from sketchy unregulated sources,
| just with greenwashed packaging. If there is a gum or
| rinse out there that is transparent and credible about
| their source of xylitol, and it's a source you can trust
| with your health, I'd love to try it out.
|
| (I admit that you can probably say the same thing about
| any toothpaste you can buy in the US. But those have at
| least some additional benefits from regulation.)
| bmau5 wrote:
| The initial data on xylitol looks promising for reducing
| cavities! Particularly for stimulating saliva production
| (dry mouth is a large contributor to cavities risk) and
| as a sugar substitute that cavity-causing species can't
| digest into acid. I'm excited to see more research come
| out and compare it with our data.
| newscracker wrote:
| Could it also be about the level of salivation in general,
| since saliva also helps kill some bacteria and keep the
| mouth cleaner (relatively)?
| bmau5 wrote:
| I was referring to something more along the lines of what the
| above comment mentions (rebalancing with beneficial
| bacteria), but there are companies working on something like
| a dishwasher for teeth, one example is below:
|
| https://freshhealth.com/
| svantana wrote:
| I find it strange that there is so little innovation in the field
| of everyday tooth care. Particularly the inefficiency of brushing
| one tooth at a time. I like the idea of https://blizzbrush.com/,
| has anyone tried it? It's a bit suspicious that the single-pack
| is "sold out", but the 5 and 10-packs are not.
| dubswithus wrote:
| I remember some articles about good bacteria outcompeting bad
| bacteria in the mouth and preventing cavities. Seems like it
| probably didn't pan out.
| moffkalast wrote:
| Nah it did, the problem is you have to take a pill every day
| and they cost way too much for that sort of frequent usage.
| Like $60 per 20 pills kind of price, which is hard to justify
| without hard proven evidence of actual benefit.
| bsenftner wrote:
| In grad school, one of my friends worked for a US medical
| device manufacturer. They had several dental innovations that
| they did not bother to market in the US because the regulation
| to get approval out weighed what they felt the market offered.
| They made their profits in other countries and were happy with
| that.
| jklinger410 wrote:
| Capitalism only creates innovations where there is potential
| for expanding profits. Permanently fixing teeth is infinitely
| less profitable than keeping them in a constant state of
| disrepair.
| Komodai wrote:
| This looks like a really bad dropshipping site...
|
| Especially considering the fact they've imported reviews from
| elsewhere, like AliExpress (even has the same name format,
| C**e).
| f6v wrote:
| Have you seen how much it costs to get crowns or implants?
| There's zero incentive for innovation, people keep bringing
| their money.
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| I would like to think that most dentists like their patients
| to have healthy, cared for teeth and that they play in
| important role in it. I would not like to think that most of
| them actually work to our detriment so that they can do more
| expensive, painful procedures on our mouths and teeth. That's
| a pretty cynical outlook I'd need to see evidence for.
| dr_orpheus wrote:
| Generally, I would agree that most dentists want their
| patients to have healthy teeth. In my dentists they seem
| relatively thorough and consistent in what they observe
| with my teeth as far as health and function. And they are
| pretty specific with preventative measures that don't make
| them money (recommendations on possible problem areas to
| make sure to focus on for flossing brushing) and some that
| do (mouth guard to prevent grinding).
|
| HOWEVER, all of the dentists that I have had push cosmetic
| procedures really hard. Teeth whitening, alignment
| (cosmetic only), caps (cosmetic only).
| david_l_lin wrote:
| All you need to do is visit the dentistry reddit sub and
| look at threads like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Dentist
| ry/comments/vnv25a/how_is_he.... They all operate on
| "production" because billing is top priority.
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| I don't doubt that money is their highest priority, as
| that is the case for most people when it comes to their
| job. But the implication that they are sabotaging our
| teeth or giving bad advice in order to be able to bill us
| for bigger procedures down the line is a much bigger
| claim.
| abrichr wrote:
| It happens. From
| https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/05/the-
| tro... :
|
| > Year after year, Lund had performed certain procedures
| at extraordinarily high rates. Whereas a typical dentist
| might perform root canals on previously crowned teeth in
| only 3 to 7 percent of cases, Lund was performing them in
| 90 percent of cases. As Zeidler later alleged in court
| documents, Lund had performed invasive, costly, and
| seemingly unnecessary procedures on dozens and dozens of
| patients, some of whom he had been seeing for decades.
| Terry Mitchell and Joyce Cordi were far from alone. In
| fact, they had not even endured the worst of it.
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| Of course it happens. I didn't say, "it never happens."
| I'm saying most dentists don't behave that way.
| moffkalast wrote:
| They don't have to sabotage people, all they have to do
| is nothing - in terms of researching new better ways to
| prevent issues - and they're already set.
| chasebank wrote:
| A close friend of mine is a dental hygienist. He once
| worked for a dentist in Ketchum, ID who had all the
| hygienists on a commission structure. Basically he was told
| to "sell" procedures that were virtually not necessary.
| Some of his coworkers were making $250k/yr as hygenists...
| Needless to say, he couldn't stomach it and left the
| practice. He's worked for many dentists and he ultimately
| left the field because the majority of clinics he worked
| for tended to be a business first and look after your best
| interests second.
| prepend wrote:
| I'd like to think that, but my dentist makes about
| $170/year from me having healthy teeth. They make
| $1500/crown (in addition to the $170 for cleaning).
|
| I've been to three dentists this year. I find it
| interesting that one said I had an emergency and needed a
| crown right away (a year ago), one said they'd watch the
| tooth, and one said nothing.
|
| Cynically, I don't like agency issues where experts make
| lots of money off their advice and it's difficult to double
| check.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| I had a dentist for several years and everything was
| normal just clean and go. A new hygenist shows up and
| suddently "You have severe plaque below the gum line we
| need to do a deep cleaning (root scaling/planing)" so
| they do that and it's almost $500, next time rolls around
| and she says it again and dentist concurs. I had been
| brushing and flossing diligently (probably too much)
| since the last time and just looking at my teeth saw
| nearly no plaque. I left and said I'd call them back to
| schedule. I go to a new dentist the following week and
| they say I have lovely teeth and it looks like I've been
| taking great care of them, then I tell the dentist what
| the previous one had said and he's like "listen, I'm not
| going to bad mouth anyone, but your teeth look great,
| they just need a typical cleaning that you came in for".
| That's when I knew something was really wrong with the
| other place, so it happens. I know my story is anecdotal.
| Personally I think my old dentist got rid of her previous
| hygenist that wouldn't agree to hornswoggle patients and
| they tried to get me to do expensive treatments.
| Guest9081239812 wrote:
| Both myself and my partner had similar experiences at the
| dentist. They found work that needed to be done, we got
| second opinions, and were told something completely
| different.
|
| I stopped trusting dentists since then. If I can feel or
| see a problem (in the mirror or in xrays), then sure,
| I'll get it fixed. But, if my teeth feel perfectly fine,
| I'm not going to rush into getting them drilled out.
| sAbakumoff wrote:
| My daily tooth care consists of 3 steps:
|
| 1. Clean between teeth by using an interdental brush
|
| 2. Clean between teeth by using a water flosser
|
| 3. Clean teeth surface by using an electric brush.
|
| I am not sure how would the sponge replace these 3 steps.
| texaslonghorn5 wrote:
| Based on the video, I wouldn't implicitly trust the brush to
| have enough precision to hit the small chunks of food at the
| gumline.
| amelius wrote:
| I want something that I can use in the office (i.e., without
| easy access to a sink).
| bilsbie wrote:
| It's just an over regulated industry where it's too expensive
| to try new things.
| diob wrote:
| Dentistry exists all over the world...
| LeonM wrote:
| There is quite some innovation, but consumers are slow to adopt
| IMO.
|
| Last year, my dentist warned me I have quite severe receded
| gums. This was due to me pushing my toothbrush too hard.
|
| So, after doing some research I bought an ultrasonic
| toothbrush. These have a static head (it does not
| oscillate/rotate) which emits ultrasonic waves to clean your
| teeth. Same principle of an ultrasonic parts cleaner. The head
| is still a traditional brush, though very soft. The brush is
| used to transfer the sound waves, you do not use it to 'scrub'
| your teeth. There is not friction involved.
|
| From my experience, I can highly recommend an ultrasonic
| toothbrush. It takes some time to get used to, but personally,
| I will never go back to a traditional 'friction' type brush
| (manual or electric).
|
| The model I have is the Silkin' ToothWave. Prices have come
| down significantly since I bought mine (I paid >EUR200 IIRC,
| now they are ~EUR90).
|
| Note that some vendors sell traditional 'friction type'
| oscillating electronic toothbrushes with ultrasonic as a
| feature. In my opinion, these do not offer much benefit, it is
| better to go for a fully ultrasonic model.
| afterburner wrote:
| Interesting. I've also had success using a Sonicare but
| always moving from the gums to the tooth (instead of along
| the gumline as the manual suggests).
| dubswithus wrote:
| How often do you change brush heads? They are quite expensive
| at $15/piece.
| LeonM wrote:
| I have used it for about a year now, and haven't need to
| change them yet. It comes with 2 brushes in the box, and
| I'm still using the first brush, it is not showing any
| signs of wear.
|
| The main thing is that you do not need to brush with any
| friction. You just move the brush gently over your teeth,
| so they barely wear.
|
| For me this is also why I like it. With traditional hand
| brushes, I'd wear them out in 3 months or so. In hindsight
| this was a clear indicator that I was pushing way to hard
| on them.
| dubswithus wrote:
| Is this different technology? I have one of these but
| haven't used it in years.
|
| https://techcrunch.com/2010/07/09/solar-powered-
| toothbrush/
| d1sxeyes wrote:
| Looks like 250 EUR on their website?
| LeonM wrote:
| Looks like that pricing has not been updated for a while. I
| paid something like 200 euros, that was about a year ago.
| Most online retailers in my country now list them for less
| than 100 euros.
| jachee wrote:
| Weird. In Dutch (https://silkn.nl/toothwave-black) it's
| EUR119.
|
| In English (both EU and GB), French, Spanish, and German
| ( e.g. https://silkn.eu/toothwave-black) it's EUR249.
| AaronM wrote:
| FYI, at least one review of multiple studies have shown that
| ultrasonic tooth brushes are no better than sonic
| toothbrushes.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7175112/
| amelius wrote:
| I'm not sure if I am comfortable with the idea of sending
| ultrasonic waves into the brain every day ...
| mattkrause wrote:
| This isn't a totally crazy concern: focused ultrasound
| (fUS) can be used to modulate brain activity non-invasively
| (or even make therapeutic lesions).
|
| However, a toothbrush is almost certainly not going to do
| that. The skull's impedance is way too high for the dinky
| transducer in your toothbrush and even if it weren't, you
| need to do all sorts of clever corrections to focus the
| ultrasound on a particular spot.
| tiahura wrote:
| Maybe it prevents Alzheimer's?
| kwanbix wrote:
| Where do you get them for 90? I only see them at 190 in
| Germany.
|
| https://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/ProductCategory/3233.ht.
| ..
| LeonM wrote:
| You can get it here for 99 euro in the Netherlands:
| https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/silk-n-toothwave-elektrische-
| tan...
| dubswithus wrote:
| https://silkn.eu/toothwave
|
| This site has them for 250 euro. I assume that's the
| cheapest for a US customer that is ordering?
|
| Oh, they don't ship to the US. How do US customers buy
| this?
| skocznymroczny wrote:
| Are these ultrasonic toothbrushes actually using ultrasonic
| waves? I have an expensive sonicare toothbrush and a cheap
| noname $10 "sonic" toothbrush from the supermarket and can't
| really tell the difference between both. Both feel like a
| standard toothbrush with a phone vibrating motor put inside.
| Hellbanevil wrote:
| hanniabu wrote:
| Not buying it. That would only work if it were firmer because
| as it is now I'm extremely doubtful your teeth will magically
| fall into those grooves when the sponge has so little
| structure. On top of that it seems hard to clean, A toothbrush
| is open and has short bristles and often after rinsing it I'll
| look and still find debris where I need to clean again and
| deliberately get pieces out.
| unsupp0rted wrote:
| Totally agree there's too little innovation in this field.
|
| I hadn't heard of the Buzz Brush and it's fascinating to me,
| although it does look half-baked and too indie at the moment
| for me to trust it with my dental health.
|
| Also it's too expensive to try as a throwaway test.
|
| Any other cool innovative products that replace standard
| brushing?
| dmcgee wrote:
| Not that replace standard brushing, but I worked with a
| company in Denmark called Novozymes. They produce enzymes for
| a variety of applications including dental care. They have a
| set of enzymes that they license to Unilever for a toothpaste
| called Zendium, which has some market share in Northern
| Europe. The enzymes break down microfilm that develops on
| teeth, making brushing more effective. There was RCT done on
| it I believe, I read the paper years ago, can't seem to find
| it now though.
| unsupp0rted wrote:
| Any concern those enzymes would get swallowed and break
| down membranes in the digestive tract?
| macinjosh wrote:
| If you are in the US, like me, you might not be aware of
| Novamin toothpastes. They are available in other countries. It
| is my understanding that it can enclose dentin tubules exposed
| by enamel loss.
|
| This article provides some background:
|
| https://medium.com/@ravenstine/the-curious-history-of-novami...
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| I have, after years of deliberatng, decided to use an
| electric toothbrush. Its been 2 years and I want to know
| _what_ I should be expecting. Maybe I am sleepy when I a
| brushing so I don 't notice but asking still.
|
| Novamin sounds interesting. Its available here on amazon so I
| might splurge on it but again, what I am to expect out of it
| as opposed to regular Colgate ?
| nso wrote:
| For me it removed that icy feeling.
| nso wrote:
| I've had bad teeth since adulthood, partly due to a
| medication changing the pH of my saliva, and partly due to a
| Pepsi addiction.
|
| I swear by the Novamin tooth paste, my life has gone from
| always having small aches and icing in my teeth to my teeth
| hardly being a factor anymore.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| been doing nano-hydroxyapatite for the same reason. I use
| stannous fluoride based toothpaste in the morning and nhdpa
| at night before bed.
| safeimp wrote:
| I was considering this recently based on a thread from last
| week:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31954800
|
| Do you have a reliable source to purchase? I've no interest
| in purchasing via Amazon, wouldn't feel comfortable trusting
| the content.
| abrichr wrote:
| CPP-ACFP (a.k.a. Recaldent) is better than Novamin, at least
| according to one study:
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6006878/
| Silica6149 wrote:
| This sponge you put in your mouth made me think for the first
| time about how much bacteria is potentially on a normal
| toothbrush.
|
| I'm betting this product is even less hygienic since it's a
| sponge instead of only bristles.
| bamboozled wrote:
| Why not leave your toothbrush in hydrogen peroxide overnight?
| Silica6149 wrote:
| Good idea, it's just I never thought twice about the
| cleanliness of a toothbrush. I guess it's been ingrained in
| me to think it's normal to run a toothbrush under water to
| "clean" it.
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| I remember a myth busters episode where they demonstrated
| that toothbrushes left in open air will easily get fecal
| matter on the brush hairs due to aerosolized poop from
| when you flush an open lid toilet. Definitely a great
| conversation ice-breaker.
| petercooper wrote:
| If that's the case, I'm going to convince myself that I'm
| doing my immune system some good exposing it to such
| horrors in minute quantities..
| kurthr wrote:
| After confirming that a toilet flush does emit an aerosol
| spray, Adam builds a rack to hold 44 toothbrushes at
| various distances from the toilet in the shop, as well as
| two controls kept in the office. Each day, Adam and Jamie
| exposed the brushes to toothpaste and rinsed with
| distilled water, with brushing with a pair kept right
| above the toilet bowl. Fecal coliforms were indeed found
| on all the test brushes, including the control ones, but
| none at a level high enough to be dangerous. A
| microbiologist from UCSF confirmed that such coliforms
| were impossible to completely avoid, and that there was
| no significant difference in the number of bacteria based
| on where the toothbrushes were placed in respect to the
| toilet bowl. This surprising result prompts the narrator
| to proclaim "Some myths are best left unanswered!"
|
| Since the controls were kept in his office... it does
| seem like it's impossible to avoid fecal coliform
| bacteria.
| liotier wrote:
| Are toilets in the bathroom common in your country ?
| Here, in France, they are a separate room - which also
| helps with multiple simultaneous uses.
| afterburner wrote:
| They're common in North America, maybe because having
| bigger houses and therefore having multiple bathrooms is
| also more common.
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| I've never seen a bathroom without a toilet in it in
| France. Is it regional? Or could it be a matter of the
| types of lodgings like flats v.s homes?
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| I've seen the splitinh in actual house in the Netherlands
| and Belgium so maybe some Northern France houses also
| split?
| criley2 wrote:
| It's considered luxury in the united states to have the
| toilet enclosed in a smaller room inside the bathroom.
| Most American cities are expensive enough per sqft that
| it's certainly not standard to have a larger bathroom
| capable of enclosed toilets.
|
| Even growing up in a lower cost of living area, I would
| associate a master bathroom with an enclosed toilet room
| as a luxury or wealthy amenity.
| knicholes wrote:
| Good to know. I've always wondered why my bathroom has a
| separate little closet-sized room with a toilet. I always
| thought it was worse because you can't wash your hands
| until after you've touched the flusher handle and the
| door knob. Of course any reasonable person with two hands
| will use separate hands, but it's just weird to me.
|
| Additionally, there was a towel rack in that room. I took
| it down because, again, it makes no sense. Why would
| anyone need a towel in the toilet room?
| rusticpenn wrote:
| You are supposed to change the brush every few months
| precisely for this reason.
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| I thought it was because the hairs on the brush get
| 'blunt' from erosion on your teeth. The 'applied science'
| guy had an electron microscope capture of new and old
| toothbrushes and it was the differences between needle
| sharp edges and worn out clubs.
| prepend wrote:
| It has bacteria that was already in your mouth right?
| Unless the bacteria multiplies and grows outside of your
| mouth I don't think it's much of an issue.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| It isn't but some people want things 100% germ free so
| they'll jump through hoops to sanitize. I wash my hands,
| rinse the head of the brush, and use a peas sized bit of
| toothpaste, brush a couple minutes. Twice a day. Electric
| toothbrushes are too complicated and annoying. Toss after
| three months. You can also use a stannous fluoride based
| tooth paste as well as it has germ fighting capabilities
| over and above regular fluoride based toothpaste if
| that's your jam. I use boka which is a nano-
| hydroxyapatite based toothpaste like is commonly used in
| japan. No cavities in the past decade and hygenist always
| complements me on making her job easy. I use stannous
| fluoride in the mornings and n-hdap at night before I go
| to bed.
| amelius wrote:
| Do you refresh the H2O2 every day?
| latchkey wrote:
| My wife uses those denture cleaner pills. They work
| amazingly well.
| vkou wrote:
| The point of brushing your teeth isn't sterilizing them. The
| point of brushing your teeth is to reduce the number of
| nutrients for bacteria to feed on, and to physically disrupt
| their environment - like running a lawnmower over an anthill.
| knicholes wrote:
| Isn't there something about changing the ph balance?
| david_l_lin wrote:
| I think it's because incumbents in the space have played a huge
| role in preventing adoption of new technologies that actually
| prevent disease. Dentists make money not from preventing
| disease, but from performing procedures when disease has
| already progressed to the point of no return.
|
| Cavities and gum disease are bacterial infections that are
| completely preventable. I feel the need to plug what we've been
| building at https://www.bristlehealth.com/. We've built an at-
| home test that leverages the microbes in the mouth to detect
| disease, and provide actionable and personalized
| recommendations that can reduce your risk of gum disease,
| cavities and persistent bad breath.
| barbazoo wrote:
| > Dentists make money not from preventing disease, but from
| performing procedures when disease has already progressed to
| the point of no return.
|
| I find that hard to believe as dentists wouldn't be the group
| of people I'd imagine developing those new ideas and
| products. How would that work?
| yunohn wrote:
| Nobody wants to go to the dentist until it's too late,
| because it's so expensive nor covered by health insurance.
|
| Even if it's not intentional, dentists aren't R&D
| specialists. They're a service, at a premium price, whose
| livelihood depends on people going for treatments.
| barbazoo wrote:
| What lever do they have to prevent new products from
| being developed that help people take care of their
| teeth?
| wmeredith wrote:
| They don't have one. There is no lever. This is
| conspiracy theory nonsense, but even if there was a lever
| they wouldn't need to pull it.
|
| I move in social circles with a lot of people from the
| dental care industry and I can tell you that no one is
| worried about running out of treatment opportunities.
|
| I've met hundreds of dentists over the last 18 years and
| they all spend their days asking patients to brush and
| floss. It's a simple thing, it's pretty cheap, and
| prevents almost all oral diseases regardless of diet or
| genetics. It's easier than changing your diet. It's a LOT
| easier than changing your mouth biome. It's practically a
| miracle cure when done regularly with decent technique.
|
| And... _the vast majority of people simply don't brush
| and floss like they should_. I 'd guess that the group
| that does is about the same size as those who actually
| get enough exercise, which is about 23.2% in America[1].
| People consume mind-boggling amounts of refined sugars
| and generally don't take care of their teeth.
|
| There is no sinister cabal keeping people in cavities and
| gum disease because, it's simply not needed.
|
| [1]https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/exercise.htm
| yunohn wrote:
| The lever is the lack of funding and motivation brought
| about by the previous factors. It's not an individual
| choice, rather a medical industry wide systemic issue.
|
| A popular example:
| https://finance.yahoo.com/news/goldman-sachs-asks-
| biotech-re...
| moffkalast wrote:
| This seems a pretty likely reason, especially when you see
| this sort of thing even for regular medicine:
| https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/11/goldman-asks-is-curing-
| patie...
|
| Dental is so much more profit oriented that it would be
| actually insane to think they're devoting R&D towards
| something like preventative medicine.
| whoomp12342 wrote:
| idk, I think the 1 pack means that people are wiling to try it
| but have not decided as a mass if they want to continue use. It
| doesnt mean its a bad product
| runnerup wrote:
| For me the "unbreakable" floss string combined with a floss
| pick in this particular product: https://www.amazon.com/DenTek-
| Triple-Clean-Floss-Picks/dp/B0... was a massive innovation that
| finally allowed me to regularly floss easily at the age of ~30.
|
| Prior to that I couldn't handle the floss string well, and all
| other floss picks (even nearly identical ones from the exact
| same brand) just snap apart between my very closely-spaced
| teeth.
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