[HN Gopher] Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data und...
___________________________________________________________________
Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91
order
Razorpay is an Indian payment platform[1]. Recently Indian police
arrested[2] the co-founder of a fact-checking website for a tweet
he did in 2018. There are reports that Government is trying to nab
him for reporting the fake news and religious hatred the current
regime has been peddling. Police demanded the data of the donors
to the fact-checking website from Razorpay and they complied
without a court order[3]. 1:
https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/razorpay 2:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/28/delhi-police-a... 3:
https://inc42.com/buzz/razorpay-alt-news-controversy-spotlig...
Author : throw_away_1042
Score : 398 points
Date : 2022-07-06 12:13 UTC (10 hours ago)
| throwaway-jim wrote:
| This is where Monero (a cryptocurrency with anonymity built in)
| could have been able to hide the donors identity from being
| shared with the government.
| Bla2e wrote:
| [deleted]
| fishes_pisces wrote:
| Well,the news source you cited has a bad reputation for
| publishing fake news[1][2].
| [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpIndia
| [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fake_news_websites
| throw_away_1042 wrote:
| The source you quoted is questionable.
|
| "The website has published fake news[26] and anti-Muslim[30]
| commentary on multiple occasions, including a 2020 incident in
| which it falsely claimed that a Hindu boy was sacrificed in a
| Bihar mosque"
|
| From the wiki page of OpIndia,
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpIndia
|
| Also foreign credit cards were not enabled on RazorPay
| [deleted]
| senthilnayagam wrote:
| throw_away_1042 wrote:
| >money was received from syria and pakistan to this account
|
| This is untrue. Razor pay did not accept international credit
| cards.
|
| >Data was sought from the startup about this account by court
| order.
|
| There was no court order.
| lazyninja987 wrote:
| pkphilip wrote:
| RazorPay does not even support non-Indian credit cards and
| payment instruments unless explicitly turned on - and this
| wasn't the case with Altnews. So there is no way anyone from
| Syria or Pakistan could have donated to Altnews.
| unmole wrote:
| > money was received from syria and pakistan
|
| Did you learn this from WhatsApp University?
| xutopia wrote:
| They're in India. The laws and customs are different there. Why
| is this surprising to you?
| rob32n wrote:
| Here is some description of Section 91:-
|
| Whenever any Court or any officer in charge of a police station
| considers that the production of any document or other thing is
| necessary or desirable for the purposes of any investigation,
| inquiry, trial or other proceeding under this Code by or before
| such Court or officer, such Court may issue a summons, or such
| officer a written order, to the person in whose possession or
| power such document or thing is believed to be, requiring him to
| attend and produce it, or to produce it, at the time and place
| stated in the summons or ordeR
|
| Section 91 has been used in 2020 as well by Kerala Govt ( state
| govt)
|
| https://m.timesofindia.com/city/thiruvananthapuram/cbi-invok...
|
| It seems author of this post doesn't understand law. India penal
| code is fundamental from west laws.
|
| Section is used to for "summons to produce" and comes under
| "process to compel production of things"
|
| The post owner simple intention is to harm Razorpay reputation.
| He also changed the headline of this post from Original post.
|
| In this section police office has full authority to produce
| things and it has been used prior to this case in India to
| produce financial documents. There is no need of court order in
| this scenario as per section 91.
|
| Summon can issued by a court or police office, by law this both
| have same power to do so to produce document associated with the
| case.
| 0xmohit wrote:
| In UP, India, a Muslim restaurant owner was arrested because the
| non-veg food he wrapped with old newspapers had photos of Hindu
| gods and goddesses.
|
| https://thewire.in/rights/up-man-arrested-for-wrapping-chick...
| dang wrote:
| All: please do not step into religious flamewar hell. Not even
| baby steps please. This is the most avoidable kind of flamewar.
|
| We detached this subthread from
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31999966 and marked it off
| topic.
| harpic wrote:
| nicoburns wrote:
| I don't doubt that this article is biased, but that doesn't
| change the fact that such laws are entirely unreasonable.
| methusala8 wrote:
| I can share ten stories where the offenders are Muslims and the
| victims are Hindus. Wire won't be covering those stories. This
| newspaper is as prejudiced against Hindus as it gets.
| dang wrote:
| Please do not take HN threads further into religious flamewar
| hell. That is the last thing we need here.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| spaceman_2020 wrote:
| The Wire doesn't need to cover them because mainstream media
| channels are already blasting them on primetime everyday.
|
| Amazing that in a country where there's a Hindu in
| practically every single position of authority, Hindus still
| harbor such a deep seated victimization complex.
| saimiam wrote:
| That's exactly what I dont understand. It's so ingrained.
| In my apartment complex's (Indian residing in India here)
| WhatsApp group, we'll have people whose WhatsApp numbers
| are from the Middle East but they'll be fulminating about
| Muslims like the rules of irony don't apply to them.
|
| I just don't understand what people are so angry about.
|
| Everything is going as well as it could in a billion strong
| parliamentary democracy but people are still mad about old
| wounds.
| methusala8 wrote:
| pessimizer wrote:
| Not that amazing. In the US, see Christians, white people,
| and men.
| dang wrote:
| Please do not take HN threads further into religious
| flamewar hell. Nor nationalistic flamewar hell, please.
| Those are the last things we need here.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| hef19898 wrote:
| And like every where, if something threatens the
| perceived superiority of a well established, powerful
| group that group will do everything to fight. Regardless
| of religion.
| actuator wrote:
| Not that I support the intention of cops to go at his
| restaurant in the first place, in the article I read, he swung
| his knife at the cop as well.
| gnufied wrote:
| > Not that I support the intention of cops to go at his
| restaurant in the first place, in the article I read, he
| swung his knife at the cop as well.
|
| No the article says - Police "alleged" that he swung his
| knife as well, which he and his family denies. I don't know
| what really happened but it would be silly to solely rely on
| cop's version of events.
| spfzero wrote:
| It would not be surprising to come into a restaurant
| kitchen and see the owner holding a big knife. He might
| even gesture without setting the knife down first.
| p_j_w wrote:
| >it would be silly to solely rely on cop's version of
| events.
|
| Especially in Modhi's Hindu nationalist India.
| azifali wrote:
| You definitely do not want to believe the cop versions of the
| story. Cops in India have been planting fake evidence in the
| activists phones and they will go any length to prosecute
| those who fight the system
| ridiculous_leke wrote:
| It's important to note that the cops partake such actions
| on the directions from higher-ups.
| otalp wrote:
| The Nuremberg defence?
| ridiculous_leke wrote:
| Except I would rather have the cops punished along with
| their higher-ups. It's common in India to punish a low-
| level cop and call it a day. All this while the real
| masterminds go on to create even more problems for the
| society.
| hn_go_brrrrr wrote:
| Or "the entire police force is corrupt, not just the beat
| cops".
| yrgulation wrote:
| A shame that corrupt and poor countries are not protecting their
| startups. Doesn't the police and government in India understand
| that such abuse will steer away even more investment?
| MrBlueIncognito wrote:
| They'll just blame the other countries. The government, the
| police, and most the population exhibit an exceptional ability
| to believe in their own lies.
| [deleted]
| hiyer wrote:
| Razorpay acted completely in accordance with Indian laws. They
| shared this information because they received a written order
| under section 91 of the Criminal Procedure Code (CrPC) of
| India[1]. This does not mandate a court order to produce the
| required documents. The order can be given by the officer in
| charge of a police station as well.
|
| 1. https://indiankanoon.org/doc/788840/
| maatrson wrote:
| Razorpay received a section 91 request and they compliant as per
| law.
|
| Most importantly, section 91 can be issued by police office such
| as DSP or SHO.
|
| This post simple some sort of revenge against razorpay.
|
| OP on purpose didn't mention of section 91 and giving misleading
| information to YC.
|
| OP also making this about politics. This is very old law and used
| in a lot cases in the past.
| sam0x17 wrote:
| I've always wondered this but what's stopping companies from just
| not having a physical presence in these countries but still
| serving them over the internet? Like what can India really do if
| there is no office in country. Sure they could block the service,
| but I mean beyond that, is there really anything they can do to
| compell you to comply with their overbearing demands if you are
| out of country?
| airocker wrote:
| For those judging Indian government through these comments should
| understand that majority of Indians are happy with the government
| and elections in India are as fair as in the USA :) . The ones
| who are unhappy with the government and feel disempowered are
| more motivated to post in a forum where someone would read their
| grievances.
| thealig wrote:
| The "majority" of Indians watch and read from a small set of
| media outlets, most of them biased pro-government news media
| which feed only news showing the Indian government and
| authorities in a positive light while completely leaving out
| their problems. Basically, news confirming their biases.
|
| Critical journalism is pretty much marginal and niche - these
| outlets are fewer because there are very little incentives.
| There are a few like NDTV and Dainik bhaskar, who routinely
| face sanctions by governmental bodies for not sticking to the
| governmental narrative.
|
| Unfortunately Indian society specially due to how educational
| systems are structured do not encourage any questioning of
| authority and unable to point out criticisms specially in
| public Easier to stay happier with blind acceptance of
| information when you barely know whats happening in detail
| beyond the governments successes.
|
| Even the elections are not without fault, primarily in the
| working of the Election commission and how free and fair they
| are (specially in Kashmir) so I doubt your statement about
| fairness.
| throwaway_9120 wrote:
| There is one thing common among Indian left-wingers and
| right-wingers. Both of them thinks the other wing is a frog-
| in-the-well.
| airocker wrote:
| And humans are wired to think they are better than most
| others: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20954785/
| [deleted]
| snambi wrote:
| This is not the full set of events as it happened.
| throwaway_9120 wrote:
| The OP is not telling the complete story and maligning RazorPay
| and the current Indian government. Such one-sided posts do not
| belong here.
|
| This co-founder of AltNews has been habitually mocking the Hindu
| deities and would delete his offending posts whenever caught.
|
| His position on religion can be summed up below:
|
| _If you mock my God, I will ensure that you face the maximum
| repercussions possible. However, if I mock your God, I will play
| victim and bring my entire ecosystem together to discredit you._
|
| Folks reading this, things are far more complex than made out to
| be. Read all the sides before reaching a conclusion.
| methusala8 wrote:
| azifali wrote:
| How many terrorists activities did Amnesty International
| sponsor? Why were they shut down if they didn't..
| noufalibrahim wrote:
| I don't think AltNews received foreign funding. Nor was it
| possible for Razorpay to process the payment.
|
| Interestingly, it's possible for political parties to receive
| foreign funding (via. Electoral Bonds) without much
| transparency to the electorate about how much they receive.
| throwaway_1928 wrote:
| Razorpay might be in trouble for processing foreign funds
| without FCRA approval.
| sa1 wrote:
| International credit cards were always disabled for
| Altnews.
| ahamedirshad123 wrote:
| No foreign donations
|
| We do not accept foreign remittance as we are not
| registered under the FCRA Act. Only Indian citizens with
| Indian bank accounts can donate currently.
| ahamedirshad123 wrote:
| If you are an Indian citizen, please consider donating to
| them. And by that way you can verify yourself.
|
| https://pages.razorpay.com/altnews
| saimiam wrote:
| Done. [?]5k. Keep journalist-ing. Good luck. Fcuk these
| high handed politicians.
| honkler wrote:
| I agree, but We need focus now on Hindu Terrorism. That's the
| major threat to the country and the world.
| monkey_monkey wrote:
| Actually, it's fanaticism in all its forms that's the major
| threat to countries and the world.
| modi15 wrote:
| Exactly. No one is talking about how a Muslim tailor was
| killed by a bunch of Hindus and brazenly captured in video
| which also threatened the country's PM of a similar fate. The
| Hindu community then proceeded to pelt stones on the Police
| which came to arrest the killers.
| actuator wrote:
| Can you give examples from the world where they have killed
| people or been involved in violence in general in the name of
| religion?
|
| There is sufficient Hindu diaspora outside, so this comment
| seems extremely uncalled for.
| ycycman wrote:
| The razorpay account on which altnews is on did not allow to
| accept payments from foreign countries.
|
| Out of the payments done through Indian banks to altnews, the
| government is searching if there is a foreign IP address. The
| social media trolls are making an issue that altnews is being
| funded by terrorists from Syria and other countries
|
| Any idea how much money came in from the so called terrorist
| wih Indian bank accounts with a foreign IP addresse? It's 2500$
|
| It's a mere 2500$
|
| https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indiatoday.in/amp/india/sto...
|
| https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livemint.com/news/india/alt...
| dang wrote:
| Please do not take HN threads into flamewar.
|
| We detached this subthread from
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32000429.
| ptero wrote:
| The problem with this approach is that a vague "because
| terrorism" can justify a heavy handed approach to a very large
| set of policies which have nothing to do with terrorism. And
| "because terrorism", "because covid", "because child abuse"
| become convenient tools for the government to force this or
| that policy on its citizens. It is a lot easier to claim
| "because terrorism" than to argue a policy on merits and
| respond to counter arguments.
|
| The upstream question is harder to answer, though: if the
| majority of the governed support this approach, is it democracy
| in action or an autocratic overreach?
| throwaway_1928 wrote:
| If terrorists attack Americans, they are called 'terrorists'.
|
| If terrorists attack Indians, they are called 'militants' or
| simply 'fighters'.
| saimiam wrote:
| I'm old enough to remember when Indian terrorists used to
| call up journalists and editors and demand that they be
| referred to as militants.
| bigDinosaur wrote:
| Most people outside of India would be completely ignorant
| as to terrorism in India, so I wouldn't give their opinion
| much weight. I was pretty shocked that it was apparently
| common to have metal detectors at movie theatres, for
| example, at least in some cities - there's no real
| awareness of that outside of India/Indian diaspora as far
| as I know.
| samarthr1 wrote:
| I would like to remind you that ever since the current
| government came into power, the number of terrorist attacks
| in the major cities has drastically dropped.
|
| At one point of time, it used to be regular news to hear
| about the jihadists bombing places.
|
| I was about 8 or 9 when there was a bomb blast quite close to
| my house in Hyderabad. That was about 10 years ago.
|
| Folks in the west appear to condemn others but not
| themselves, leaving a rather poor taste in the mouth.
| saimiam wrote:
| But that reduction in foreign terror attacks happened all
| over the world.
|
| The Mumbai terror attack was followed by similar attacks in
| Paris where civilians going about their day were targeted.
|
| That wave of terror is over, probably because ISIS and AQ
| are no longer the force they used to be.
|
| Now it's domestic terror and social polarization.
|
| Don't think these laws are the reason why foreign terror
| attacks reduced.
| actuator wrote:
| Well, unlike west in India the impact of the said terrorism
| are much more visible. In the 90s and 2000s, all the major
| cities were having routine attacks by the said terrorists, so
| you can see why it is easier to gain sympathy on anything
| that can be seen to act on it. It is quite a big issue in the
| country.
| ptero wrote:
| I am not saying that the terrorism (covid, child abuse,
| etc.) is not a big problem. It must be a big, highly
| visible problem to be used by politicians to justify their
| policies. But that justification is often lacking, as
| claiming that this is a fight against a highly visible,
| important problem suffices.
| ahamedirshad123 wrote:
| Altnews don't receive payment from abroad. You know it well,
| and you won't say it here. We all know the reason.
| omniglottal wrote:
| No, actually, "we" don't all know whatever you're not talking
| about.
| ahamedirshad123 wrote:
| The OP knows.
| [deleted]
| jeswin wrote:
| Here's what happened:
|
| - Nupur Sharma, spokesperson of the governing party (BJP) mocks
| Prophet Mohammed on National TV saying that he had sex with a 9
| year old. She then justifies it saying she was quoting the Hadith
| (Islamic religious texts).
|
| - ZooBear on Twitter brings attention to the issue, via his
| channel AltNews
|
| - India gets international condemnation, Gulf countries are
| pissed
|
| - India apologizes to various Gulf countries and calls Nupur
| Sharma a "fringe element"
|
| - Muslims in India are still very, very angry. There are
| widespread calls to behead Nupur Sharma.
|
| - Two people get murdered (one beheaded and the video streamed)
| for supporting Nupur Sharma on Social Media
|
| - Now it's Hindus' turn to be pissed; they want ZooBear arrested
| (using whatever laws they can find)
|
| - They dig up ZooBear's own old social media posts, file cases
| against him using blasphemy laws, and he gets arrested
|
| - The govt is pissed too; so they try to lock ZooBear up under
| various laws, such as laws pertaining to how international
| donations need to be accounted
|
| - The police ask RazorPay to hand over a list of people who have
| donated to AltNews, under Section 91 of the Code Of Criminal
| Procedure
|
| - They comply.
| arcticfox wrote:
| Holy cow. Thanks for the context.
|
| > - Two people get murdered (one beheaded and the video
| streamed) for supporting Nupur Sharma on Social Media
|
| JFC, humans suck.
|
| Also interesting after looking into it is that ZooBear has
| tweet after tweet mocking Hinduism, yet takes extreme offense
| at someone mocking Islam and seems to consider it hate speech.
| rootkea wrote:
| > ZooBear has tweet after tweet mocking Hinduism
|
| Absolutely false. Can you share one?
| snambi wrote:
| There were plenty. But I think they were deleted now.
| Clubber wrote:
| Whenever I think US politics have gone off the rails, it's
| perhaps comforting to see other countries are way worse.
| mrguyorama wrote:
| Except this kind of system (significant nepotism, open
| corruption, a government that people mostly don't have faith
| in, strongly charged with religious fervor and rhetoric) Is
| pretty much exactly what the more aggressive parts of the
| American Right are literally trying to make happen.
|
| Oh, and they are succeeding spectacularly.
| throwaway_1928 wrote:
| Not entirely true.
|
| - TV debates in India are charged and partisan.
|
| - Nupur Sharma was debating a man named Tasneem Rehmani.
|
| - Tasleem Rehmani said something denigrating towards a Hindu
| God (which is normal and typically goes unpunished and even
| unnoticed in India).
|
| - Nupur Sharma countered him by saying "Do not mock my
| religion. Do you want me to start talking about flying horses
| or the fact that your Prophet married a girl at age 6 and
| consummated the marriage at age 9?"
|
| - Various Islamic scholars have themselves said exactly what
| Nupur Sharma said. She was merely quoting their own texts in a
| debate.
|
| - Debate goes on and ends. Nothing happens for days.
|
| - Self-proclaimed 'fact checker' (not a journalist, according
| to himself) Mohammed Zubair edits this debate clip, removes the
| provocation by Tasneem Rehmani, only showing Nupur Sharma
| 'insulting' this religious Prophet.
|
| - Zubair then distributes this clip across social media and
| various Islamic Whatsapp groups.
|
| - In India, free speech is not absolute. Saying and doing
| things to create enmity between religious groups is a crime.
|
| - The fact that what Nupur Sharma says is factual and simply a
| response to what Tasneem Rehmani said, becomes irrelevant.
|
| - Many Muslims in India, millions of whom study in Islamic
| seminaries (madrasas), are whipped into a frenzy and behead
| multiple people with the slogan 'Sar Tan Se Juda' (meaning they
| will separate heads from bodies, in the ISIS style).
|
| - Police and agencies arrest this 'fact checker' Zubair and are
| looking into his funding. This is where the RazorPay data comes
| in.
|
| - Prior to his arrest, he deletes several of his social media
| posts and tweets mocking Hindu Gods.
|
| - Various organizations like the BBC, New York Times, Al
| Jazeera as well as India's left leaning publications decry
| Zubair's arrest as an 'attack on democracy'.
| rootkea wrote:
| > Tasleem Rehmani said something denigrating towards a Hindu
| God
|
| I watched that entire debate and he didn't say anything
| degrading towards Hindu Gods.
|
| Here's the context- Hindu RW claimed a fountain in Gyanvapi
| mosque (situated in Kashi) as Shivalinga (God Shiva's
| phallus)[0] which is a part of larger campaign of claiming
| Muslims mosques as Hindu temples by RSS/BJP. Started with
| demolition of Babri mosque (situated in Ayodhya) in 1992.[1]
| The war-cry of the time was "Ayodhya to zaki hai. Kashi
| Mathura baki hai" (Ayodhya is just a trailer. Kashi and
| Mathura are remaining)
|
| Many Indians (majorly we secular Hindus) made fun of communal
| Hindus for claiming anything shaped like a phallus to be a
| "Shivalinga". I myself shared how in 1990s Hindus in San
| Fransisco started worshiping traffic barricade as
| "Shivalinga".[2]
|
| [0] https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/hindu-group-
| recognise...
|
| [1]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_of_the_Babri_Masjid
|
| [2] https://www.freepressjournal.in/viral/san-francisco-
| people-w...
| unmole wrote:
| > Islamic Whatsapp groups.
|
| > Prior to his arrest, he deletes several of his social media
| posts and tweets mocking Hindu Gods.
|
| You're literally peddling IT cell propaganda.
| alex_smart wrote:
| https://socialblade.com/twitter/user/zoo_bear
|
| This website shows 99 deleted tweets between 26th and 27th
| June.
| MrBlueIncognito wrote:
| TL;DR two extremists make offensive statements on television,
| journalist tweeting a segment from it to bring it to public
| attention gets arrested.
|
| You may argue that Mohammed Zubair is somehow an evil cynical
| person who wants to watch the world burn, but the fact is
| that tweeting a segment from national television is not a
| criminal offence and should not be treated as such.
|
| > which is normal and typically goes unpunished and even
| unnoticed in India.
|
| Kudos for living in an alternate dimension!
| boruto wrote:
| Well he was not arrested for it.
|
| If he had stuck to doing what he did I guess no one would
| go after him.
|
| He had caused diplomatic issues and bayed for nupurs head.
| It would do well to remember what a minority ABV gov did to
| tehelka and promotors. Guess that is what Modi gov is
| trying here.
| wtmt wrote:
| The police made a different statement and claimed that they had
| only requested RazorPay donor information of any foreign donors
| to AltNews (which claimed that it had restricted payments only
| from Indian citizens in India), and that they hadn't asked
| RazorPay to disable the account of AltNews. Yet, RazorPay
| disabled the account for a day and then enabled it.
|
| Now, the request was made under a law (CRPC 91) that allows the
| police to request for any "document or thing". So a court order
| is not necessary.
|
| But there seems to be a lot that's not being revealed here
| honestly.
|
| While I wouldn't blame RazorPay for being yet another scared
| Indian company that obeys (perceived) authority immediately for
| any request from any government entity, it doesn't bode well that
| no Indian started company stands up to law enforcement or the
| government. Only some multinational companies seem to have the
| guts to question unreasonable requests.
|
| Indian laws are overly broad and sometimes it seems like the
| whole system can be simplified into a few sentences that allows
| government authorities in any department to request or takeover
| anything and cite "national security" or "public law and order"
| as the reasons. /s
|
| Seriously though, the "largest democracy" tag doesn't go well
| with the laws and the legal system. It's a disappointment and a
| shame.
| eldaisfish wrote:
| The rule of law in india is an elaborate sham. The law is
| whatever you are told by any tentacle of the Indian government.
| The worst part is that there is no recourse - literally none.
| Many in the west don't have a good grasp of how the legal and
| administrative systems function in a country like india.
|
| As for "largest democracy" it is true if you consider India's
| voting system. It is among the best in the world at access and
| transparency. Unfortunately, every other aspect of democracy is
| a joke in india.
|
| The law you cited is intentionally vague. It is this way to
| give the government and administration the means to weaponize
| the state against the little guy.
| throwaway89__ wrote:
| upupandup wrote:
| I mean when you push founders to "break the rules but not the
| law" eventually they are going to.
| msravi wrote:
| Ok, providing a little context here about how this played out.
|
| 1. A group of Hindu women petition a court for the right to
| (continue) worship at (what is now) the Gyanvapi mosque
|
| 2. The court orders that a survey of the mosque be carried out to
| determine if there is a historical locus standii for the petition
|
| 3. Videos of the survey reveal what appears to be a Shiva linga
| in a pond used for ablutions
|
| 4. Heated TV debates on prime time about the find. In one such
| debate a muslim cleric makes derogatory references to Shiva. In
| response a spokesperson of the ruling BJP, Nupur Sharma, says
| Prophet Mohammed married a girl of 6 and consumated the
| relationship when she was 9.
|
| 5. Zubair Mohammed of Altnews, begins a tweetstorm against Nupur
| Sharma and the channel for hurting muslim sentiments by making
| derogatory references to the prophet
|
| 6. Nupur Sharma says she is receiving threats due to Zubair's
| call and goes into hiding. Police on the lookout to arrest her
| for offending religious sentiments
|
| 7. Several videos posted demanding that she be killed and
| processions with "Sar tan se juda" slogans taken out (separate
| head from body)
|
| 8. Several also post "IStandWithNupur" in her support on social
| media. One such person is a tailor named Khanaiyya in Udaipur.
|
| 9. Khanaiyya is beheaded for standing in support of Nupur Sharma.
| The murderers record the killing on video and also threaten that
| the prime minister will meet the same fate
|
| 10. Many see this as a result of Zubair's call for action against
| Nupur and pull up old tweets of his with derogatory comments
| against Hindu practices demanding his arrest
|
| 11. Zubair is arrested and Altnews financials come under the
| scanner. Police use section 91 to obtain details of Altnews
| financing via Razorpay
| semanticvector wrote:
| If someone would remember, Proton AG (so called most secure mail
| and mode of communication), had to share client details under
| govt orders.
|
| Razorpay is similarly following Indian law, which it has to, as
| it operates in India. Clickbaity title, with a throw-away account
| is sure doing wonders here.
| ushakov wrote:
| current year has brought a lot of public embarrassment for YC
| baxtr wrote:
| What else happened?
| ushakov wrote:
| they keep funding fraudsters
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31431224
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30899352
| AlexandrB wrote:
| Also this one from last year:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26898266
| ezekiel11 wrote:
| dont forget coinbase and how much Paul vouched for that
| awful grifter Brian Armstrong. some families out there are
| now fatherless because they lost money on the shitcoins
| promoted thru and offered on coinbase.
|
| imagine enriching yourself by having poor ppl transfer over
| their life savings and causing suicides. this is what Paul
| & YC/crypto proponents are okay with since its not illegal.
| navigate8310 wrote:
| Care to explain, how is this related to the topic in
| discussion?
| ziddoap wrote:
| >"Razorpay, _a YC company_ shared [...] "
| ad93611 wrote:
| I'm a startup founder where most of our employees are based in
| India. I don't condone this move by Razorpay. However, as someone
| else pointed out, the legal process in India is not robust, and
| it is biased toward people in power. Here are some constructive
| ways to avoid situations like this:
|
| 1. Register your company outside of India. The US is an excellent
| option because of the solid legal framework.
|
| 2. Encrypt the data. Ask for access from your customers, even for
| your own support teams.
|
| 3. Use international companies for services whenever possible.
|
| It would be great to have a regular process to delete old data if
| you don't need it for business purposes, and this is hard to do
| because you could develop an innovative way to add customer value
| using the old data you don't know of today.
| wtmt wrote:
| Unfortunately, the data part won't work very well because of
| the strict data localization laws that require financial data
| to be stored in India. Related to this, Amex and MasterCard
| were banned from issuing new cards in India. The ban on
| MasterCard was removed recently (nearly a year later) after
| compliance. The ban on Amex is still not lifted.
| methusala8 wrote:
| boruto wrote:
| i am sure there are compliance and regulations which would
| prevent FinTech companies acting on their own whims.
| lazyasciiart wrote:
| > It would be great to have a regular process to delete old
| data if you don't need it for business purposes, and this is
| hard to do because you could develop an innovative way to add
| customer value using the old data you don't know of today.
|
| It is not "hard to do" just because you would like not to do
| it. This is the _first_ step you should be taking, not faffing
| around with international corporate registrations and
| encryption to create weak protection for data that you shouldn
| 't have in the first place.
| abdellah123 wrote:
| tl;dr don't save sensitive data all together. Encrypt if you must
| so that even you can't access it if you wanted to
| ahamedirshad123 wrote:
| Again Altnews doesn't accept foreign donations. This is from
| Razorpay page for Altnews.
|
| No foreign donations
|
| We do not accept foreign remittance as we are not registered
| under the FCRA Act. Only Indian citizens with Indian bank
| accounts can donate currently.
| boruto wrote:
| It is completely immoral that some people want to paint Altnews
| as boogieman receiving donations from Pak and syria.
| throwaway_9120 wrote:
| You are all across comments section repeating this again and
| again.
|
| Does a criminal ever accepts his(her) crime?
|
| AltNews is free to write anything on their website OR on their
| own page on RazorPay, that doesn't mean a thing.
|
| There are several hundreds other payment processors and ways
| that they can avail to get money from foreign nations.
|
| As of current state of investigation, Police say that he has
| already accepted taking money from Pakistan and Syria.
|
| https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/delhi/alt-news-co-f...
| pvsukale3 wrote:
| Rule of law is a joke in India.
|
| Center has central agencies and each states has their own police
| department. So whenever there is a noticeable criticism from
| someone centre or state govt will send their police/agency your
| way. You will be detained, put through the worst conditions and
| false charges will be filed. Most of these charges don't hold in
| higher courts but the damage is done. You will suffer, a lot. You
| will not dare to speak up again.
|
| This is even so comical, sometimes centre will send agencies
| against another party politicians in power in a state they are
| not in power, and state will send police for local politicians
| from centre party. (https://scroll.in/article/1027571/how-the-
| modi-government-ha...)
|
| Sometimes diff state police with diff party governments fight
| with each other. (https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/toi-
| editorials/sto...)
|
| And sometimes police will just plant evidence in your email with
| their work email address as backup email address. They literally
| jailed bunch of very old left activists with fake charges by
| hacking their email accounts.
| (https://www.wired.com/story/modified-elephant-planted-eviden...)
| boruto wrote:
| After Occam's and Hanlon's razor we have a new - Payments'
| Razor wherein you opt for a non-compliant, utopic payment
| method and force this benchmark onto other payment services.
| ghoomketu wrote:
| While I have no sympathy for razorpay but I'd just like to point
| out that laws in India are much more heavy handed than a country
| like US. People are thrown in jail for social media posts and
| sometimes just for liking a social media post(1)
|
| Twitter has been having a very hard time operating in India
| too(2) and routinely censoring stuff so while IANAL just remember
| that things are very different in different parts of the world.
|
| (1) https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/arrested-over-a-
| fa...?
|
| (2) https://restofworld.org/2022/twitters-censorship-india/
| harpic wrote:
| methusala8 wrote:
| tomrod wrote:
| Non-sikh here. Sikhs are terrorists? That doesn't sound
| right. Is this some new hogwash or some such?
| harpic wrote:
| ceejayoz wrote:
| dang wrote:
| Religious flamewar is not ok on HN. We've banned this
| account. Please don't create accounts to break the site rules
| with.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| ahamedirshad123 wrote:
| Doctored video? What are you smoking? He posted the original
| video. And the channel has deleted the video from their
| YouTube channel.
|
| For Non Indians here, TimesNow is the channel and that news
| reporter is Laura Ingram of India.
| dang wrote:
| Please do not respond to a bad comment by breaking the site
| guidelines yourself. Your comment would be ok without the
| swipe at the beginning.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| harpic wrote:
| When you edit a video to cut the provocation and just show
| the response- that is doctoring. You denying this video
| resulted in beheading and riots ?
| mrguyorama wrote:
| If you start riots or literally murder someone because of
| some junk you saw in a short video, maybe the video isn't
| the problem.
| lifeplusplus wrote:
| Heavy handed? They are straight up barbaric not democratic.
| More similar to China then democratic countries
| satya71 wrote:
| The laws in India are quite similar to US. Unfortunately,
| current practice and interpretation is far from what was
| envisioned in the constitution.
| ignoramous wrote:
| > _...laws in India are much more heavy handed than a country
| like US._
|
| AltNews alleges that RazorPay banned their account (and later
| restored it) without cause: https://archive.is/R9OJ8
|
| To me, it seems like RazorPay simply buckled under pressure.
| Why wouldn't they, they _need_ to be in bed with the central
| govt, or their business falls apart pretty quick.
| sateesh wrote:
| But as the article suggests why was there a need to share data
| of all donors, they could have shared only those that
| originated outside India.
| ahamedirshad123 wrote:
| LoL. They don't recieve payment from foreign countries.
| sa1 wrote:
| There were no transactions originating outside India, the
| payments were configured to accept only Indian cards.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Well, my inner cynic assumes that authorities know that.
| And that is exactly the reason why the wanted the records.
| Might be a tad hard to crack down on foreign donors,
| harassing domestic ones on the other hand...
| anovikov wrote:
| And this is billed as "world's largest democracy". Wtf is the
| bullshit we are made to believe? Why don't we just stop
| pretending and relabel most "democratic" countries as just
| "pro-Westnern"?
| achow wrote:
| > billed as "world's largest democracy". Wtf is the bullshit
| we are made to believe?
|
| New York Times:
|
| _"India is valued the world over for a great many things,
| but for three over others: the Taj Mahal, Mahatma Gandhi and
| India's electoral democracy." It is the 17th general election
| in India, being held in seven phases over 38 days. Nine
| hundred million Indians are registered to vote! Around 70
| percent are expected to vote. The voting age in India is 18,
| and 15 million are voting for the first time._
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/25/opinion/india-
| elections.h...
|
| USA + European Union = ~750M population (not voters)
| eldaisfish wrote:
| India has a very effective and fair electoral system,
| that's about it. The other branches and foundations of a
| liberal democracy are either a sham or crumbling in India.
|
| Minorities are routinely targeted, court judgments are
| filled with personal opinions... i could go on.
|
| The mere existence of a voting system does not a full
| democracy make. Remember, Russia also has "elections".
| achow wrote:
| > _Minorities are routinely targeted.._
|
| > _court judgments are filled with personal opinions.._
|
| Sounds like another country that we know of.
| digestm wrote:
| > billed as "world's largest democracy".
|
| This is what you are made to believe by the propaganda
| machine. As someone else mentioned here, India is "elected
| autocracy". And "first-past-the-post" election doesn't mean
| the government has support of the majority of Indians.
|
| Sad to say as an Indian, India is going Russia way.
| [deleted]
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > And this is billed as "world's largest democracy". Wtf is
| the bullshit we are made to believe? Why don't we just stop
| pretending and relabel most "democratic" countries as just
| "pro-Westnern"?
|
| India is not pro-Western, and none of those things upthread
| are inconsistent with democracy. They are illiberal, perhaps,
| but not all democracy is liberal democracy.
| gruez wrote:
| >none of those things upthread are inconsistent with
| democracy. They are illiberal, perhaps, but not all
| democracy is liberal democracy.
|
| This line of reasoning feels like a motte and bailey to me.
| When that fact is being trotted out by supporters it's
| almost always a comparison to liberal democracies. I doubt
| when Indians say "we're the largest democracy" they're
| comparing themselves to russia.
| kasey_junk wrote:
| India is pretty decidedly not pro Western and hasn't been
| since independence.
| [deleted]
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| India is a "non-aligned" country, it's not "pro-Western".
| They have good relations with Russia, which is their main
| weapons supplier.
|
| The West tends to cultivate them in relation to China, at
| which point calling them "the biggest democracy in the world"
| is simply a propaganda tool to sell them as the 'good guys'
| to public opinions (vs. China who are obviously the 'bad
| guys'). But the issues between India and China are
| independent of any "pro-Western" stance or political system,
| they are purely based on conflicts of interests between those
| two countries, including left-overs from the British Empire
| when it comes to border disputes.
| RicoElectrico wrote:
| India is weird. It's not really called authoritarian (rankings
| don't classify it as such), but there are many similar stories
| of government dysfunction and overreach. Maybe someone else has
| a word for them?
| azifali wrote:
| It has slid into authoritarianism.
| digestm wrote:
| Exactly
| achow wrote:
| Well so was the case in USA few years back.
|
| It is not about govt per se (which is grappling with bigger
| issues - Russia, Srilanka..) but is about mid and lower level
| politicians, govt and police officers..
|
| Also the pattern is inconsistent, some regions in India is
| polar opposite to this kind of right leanings - Ex. East of
| India. Some are neutral - most of South India. India is a
| large and complex country; the general sentiment is no
| different than looking at Ireland and thinking French
| politics generally sucks (or whatever appropriate example.. I
| have no clue how politics is in either of these countries).
| garyfirestorm wrote:
| kleptocracy
| shaan7 wrote:
| Yeah its only "sort of" authoritarian, in most regions you
| can live quite a free life.
|
| The cases where it becomes authoritarian is when it comes to
| religion and criticism of the government. This is the reason
| that the majority of the population does not even believe in
| issues that exist (social, political, ecological or
| otherwise).
| throwaway_62022 wrote:
| As I mentioned above - criticism of any kind of religion
| can get you in trouble in India[1][2]. But we should not
| lump that with criticism of government.
|
| Do you have any examples, where someone was arrested for
| simply criticising govt actions?
|
| 1. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/editor-
| arreste...
|
| 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeping_crucifix_in_Mumbai
| onepointsixC wrote:
| That just sounds like literally any other authoritarian
| country. Freedom of speech never was needed in order to
| speak things which are commonly agreed and central
| government approved.
| kalimanzaro wrote:
| An autocracy of the majority, for the majority, by the
| majority.
| snambi wrote:
| There is a name for it, democracy.
| pessimizer wrote:
| https://www.ibtimes.com/hindu-nationalists-historical-
| links-...
|
| _Hindu Nationalist's Historical Links to Nazism and Fascism_
|
| Sorry for the awful source, but the predecessors of the BJP
| were openly patterned after European fascist movements, there
| were contacts between them and a mutual affection. There's
| even a strain of European mystic Hindu Nazism:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savitri_Devi
| kanduri wrote:
| It is an electoral autocracy. Merely having elections doesn't
| make it "democratic". Certainly not if much of mainstream
| media is under the ownership of the biggest "donors" of the
| current ruling disposition.
|
| Alternative crowd sourced media houses such as AltNews, The
| Wire among others are under real danger as are socio-
| political activists, union organizers, smaller opposition
| political parties, etc.
|
| https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-56393944
| biosboiii wrote:
| >It's not really called authoritarian (rankings don't
| classify it as such) Because they serve US interest,
| especially against China. Despite "authoritarian" being a
| buzzword, you should maybe base your views on a country on
| your observations (such as the extreme violation of basic
| human rights in India regarding muslims, the fact that there
| are laws against muslim and hindu folks marrying, labelled as
| "love jihad", the fact that the government shot multiple
| people protesting against the government in 2020) and not on
| some obscure rankings, funded and made by US NGOs (see
| National Endowment for Democracy as a reference)
| signatoremo wrote:
| Hmm India has never been a close US's ally, the latest
| example being their stand in the Russia's invasion of
| Ukraine. They are more often than not at odd with the US's
| interest. The only thing that brings the two sides together
| is China.
| ramraj07 wrote:
| Heres the interesting thing though. A majority of Indian
| citizens would agree with this overreach. If the majority
| agrees with heavy handed tactics and they are enforced by
| elected officials with at least reasonably fair elections
| then is it right to call it an autocracy?
|
| I don't agree with any of this of course but it is
| unfortunate reality here.
| mrkstu wrote:
| Tyranny of the majority.
| sateesh wrote:
| The phenomenon what you mention is called "Tyranny of
| Majority", great many thinkers have indeed weighed on this.
| throwaway_62022 wrote:
| Folks belonging to majority can get caught on the wrong
| side of the fence too -
| https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/editor-
| arreste...
|
| I believe the problem is laws related to religion and
| hate speech. They are stupid. Section 295 is non-bailable
| offence and can be easily abused by either side to
| placate group that feels offended.
|
| The discussions about India sliding into authoritarian is
| interesting because strictly speaking many of these laws
| are pretty old. I wish that these laws did not exist but
| strictly speaking these laws have been abused to placate
| Hindus, Muslims, Christians(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki
| /Weeping_crucifix_in_Mumbai) at different times.
| Gurgler wrote:
| Fear of such a tyranny of the majority is why the
| founders of the US created the electoral college, and
| apportioned the Senate as it is, creating a republic
| instead of a pure democracy. It also describes the
| original ideological distinction between Republicans and
| Democrats, the two main political parties in the US.
| James Madison described a scenario like this in his
| Federalist Paper #10.
|
| "Complaints are everywhere ... that the public good is
| disregarded in the conflicts of rival parties, and that
| measures are too often decided, not according to the
| rules of justice and the rights of the minor party, but
| by the superior force of an interested and overbearing
| majority."
| tedivm wrote:
| devin wrote:
| Not sure what you're referring to. A majority certainly
| does not approve of overturning Roe, quite the opposite.
| jasonlotito wrote:
| In polls they don't, but in practice, the majority voted
| for this outcome.
| mehlmao wrote:
| Democratic candidates won the popular vote in 2000, 2008,
| 2012, 2016, and 2020.
| jasonlotito wrote:
| Sorry, but those are people who went to the polls. Those
| who could vote but did not go to the polls voted for the
| winner. Voting by abstaining is still voting. If you
| include the voting population that did not vote in the
| tally, they effectively voted for this outcome.
|
| And before you complain, that's exactly what I was
| talking about. That's what we are talking about.
| ridiculous_leke wrote:
| Are there any legitimate polls to back this up? An
| average American on the internet is probably against the
| ruling, but that still doesn't mean that the majority of
| Americans are against it. If that was the case, we should
| have either seen pressure building up on "pro-life"
| states or a BLM style movement in favor of legalizing
| abortion. But I don't see neither.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| > Are there any legitimate polls to back this up?
|
| A number of legitimate polls have found substantial
| majorities/pluralities opposing the ruling [0].
|
| > should have either seen pressure building up on "pro-
| life" states
|
| On the one hand, I've definitely seen this pressure at
| the grassroots. On the other hand, there has probably
| been significant geographic sorting, especially as the
| states that are leaning towards _de jure_ abortion bans
| have been trending that way _de facto_ for years, likely
| driving people that care about the issue to friendlier
| states.
|
| > or a BLM style movement in favor of legalizing
| abortion.
|
| Give it a minute, abortion was a legally protected right
| until 2 weeks ago.
|
| [0] https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americans-views-
| on-abor...
| lazyasciiart wrote:
| Yes, lots of them, dating back years. A quick search
| gives me results of polls run by NPR, Washington Post,
| Gallup, CNN, Pew Research, NBC and CBS, to start with.
| The clear majority of Americans are in favor of legal
| abortion.
| Gurgler wrote:
| hn_tw_away_943 wrote:
| [deleted]
| gnufied wrote:
| I think hate speech laws in India are overboard -
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_India and
| although not enacted by current govt. it can be easily abused
| by police and that is what is happening in many instances.
|
| These laws are vague to a fault and govt. has given
| themselves too much power (and I do not see it changing
| anytime soon, who wants to give up power?). It is easy to
| selectively apply these laws and that in itself can promote
| enmity that these laws were designed to protect from.
| spaceman_2020 wrote:
| The India system is essentially a system of "who you know".
| Anyone who grew up in India knows that if you're a powerful
| bureaucrat, cop, or politician, you can do whatever you want.
| The law doesn't really apply to you.
|
| The only exception is if you manage to piss off someone
| higher up in the power hierarchy.
|
| Its not so much as authoritarian as it is Darwinian.
| worker_person wrote:
| I can't find it now, There was an old article talking about
| a Zombie party in India. Basically bribing an official to
| get someone declared dead was easy. Getting it fixed was
| basically impossible. There was some guy running for office
| who was legally dead.
| Viliam1234 wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh_Association_o
| f_D...
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| That's called nepotism, not Darwinian.
| parsimo2010 wrote:
| Corrupt is an appropriate word for this kind of behavior. The
| government does not officially condone the behavior, and it
| would probably function well if the policies were followed as
| written. But instead people get some power and abuse it.
| India is not unique, many countries struggle with corruption.
| Kab1r wrote:
| Corruption is large enough in India to have an entire
| political party dedicated to the issue (Aam Aadmi Party).
| voakbasda wrote:
| Many? Which countries do _not_ suffer from corruption? This
| seems to be the human condition. As the old saying goes,
| "power corrupts...". It's not of question of "if" a country
| is corrupt, it is "how much".
| brigandish wrote:
| True but India does seem to be steeped in it. I once
| bribed someone in India _accidentally_ and didn 't
| realise what had happened till afterwards. That's how
| embedded it is in daily life. I can't imagine that
| happening anywhere else I've been and I've been a few
| places.
| imperistan wrote:
| What happened? Sounds like an interesting story
| monkey_monkey wrote:
| It's more a matter of scale and how embedded it is in
| everyday life.
|
| Getting almost anything done without having to wait
| months / years / decades requires some form of black
| money payment ie a bribe.
| colechristensen wrote:
| For example: have you personally ever had to bribe
| someone, thought about it, or even considered it a
| possibility?
| ethbr0 wrote:
| A lack of rule of law?
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law
| 0xmohit wrote:
| Not quite. Just that the ruler is the law.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| That's contrary to the definition of the term. If the
| ruler is the law, then there is no rule of law.
| 0xmohit wrote:
| > If the ruler is the law, then there is no rule of law.
|
| I thought that it was obvious :)
| ridiculous_leke wrote:
| That's true. India is a severely under-policed country.
| ycycman wrote:
| The state of police in India is so pathetic that the founder of
| altnews was arrested due to a tweet which tagged local police and
| shared a link from a post in 2018.
|
| Interestingly the Twitter account was created recently with zero
| followers.
|
| An investigation by www.wire.in found out the same person had
| 750+ Twitter accounts and is some sort of leader of the ruling
| party BJP
|
| https://thewire.in/tekfog/altnews.html
| eastern wrote:
| This might come as a surprise to most people on this page but
| India and other countries around the world actually have there
| own laws and don't follow US laws.
|
| No court order is required for this data. The relevant law states
| this:
|
| Whenever any Court or any officer in charge of a police station
| considers that the production of any document or other thing is
| necessary or desirable for the purposes of any investigation,
| inquiry, trial or other proceeding under this Code by or before
| such Court or officer, such Court may issue a summons, or such
| officer a written order, to the person in whose possession or
| power such document or thing is believed to be, requiring him to
| attend and produce it, or to produce it, at the time and place
| stated in the summons or order.
| webartisan wrote:
| It's not about your laws vs my laws -- I think we can
| objectively judge what sort of protections make sense for
| someone who doesn't necessarily agree with the government of
| the day, without going into defensive nationalism.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I've flagged this because (1) the poster is anonymous and (2)
| they misrepresent the issue in the title and (3) they seem to
| have some kind of beef with Razorpay.
|
| See: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=throw_away_1042
| throw_away_1042 wrote:
| Anonymous because I worry about my and family's life. I have a
| real handle, if I use that, I'm almost certain that I will
| receive death threats and false police cases.
|
| The issue is not misrepresented. There was no court order. The
| said police written request is not contested by Razorypay.
|
| Looking at the past tweets from one of the co-founder it is not
| surprising to see the compliance with the request.
|
| https://twitter.com/shashank_kr/status/1175974410202697728
|
| https://imgur.com/a/ZDRZZ87
| jacquesm wrote:
| > Anonymous because I worry about my and family's life.
|
| I would be far more ready to believe you if you had stuck to
| the facts.
| anon261114 wrote:
| > because (1) the poster is anonymous
|
| Please rethink this criterion. Those of us who live under
| authoritarian regimes have to be cautious to protect us from
| both our governments and members of our society who support
| them.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Not in the case of an obvious attack. Anonymous cowards I
| have a problem with, anonymous people who share important
| information because otherwise their lives are in danger is a
| different story but this is - contrary to the claims of the
| author - not one of those, it is simply a very thinly
| disguised hitpiece. And I'm saying that as someone who has
| been pretty critical of YC when it comes to certain ethics
| issues, which - for the most part - they have worked on to
| improve.
| bipulranjan wrote:
| rootkea wrote:
| > The alleged fact-checker has been arrested because he has
| made similar objectional comments on various social media about
| Hindu deity.
|
| Completely false.
|
| Mohammad Zubair has been arrested for posting a screenshot from
| 1983 Indian film "Kisi Se Na Kehna" (Don't tell anybody). Yes,
| let me repeat. For posting a screenshot from a 40 years old
| Indian film.
|
| "Democracy" my foot!
|
| PS - I don't think that this should matter but unfortunately in
| today's India it does so here it is - I am a Hindu. A secular
| one not one of the communal big0ts.
|
| https://scroll.in/latest/1027077/zubair-arrested-for-posting...
| bipulranjan wrote:
| Atleast tell to the judges who have denied him bail twice :)
|
| Your secular credentials come from the fact that you will
| only criticize Nupur Sharma for her comments but will
| whitewash comments of other panelists or for that matter
| posts of Md. Zubair.
|
| PS - I am an Indian, who just wants equal treatment for all
| regardless of Religion.
| pkphilip wrote:
| You are linking to OpIndia - a virulent, propagandist right-
| wing publication?
| tr1ll10nb1ll wrote:
| The sad part is people with enough social awareness still
| linking these publications (ones that push a certain
| political agenda, in this case- far-right) probably do not
| perceive this as the sole truth rather as a means to defend
| the injustice they too deem right being carried out.
|
| In other words, any justification possible for their views.
| bipulranjan wrote:
| Yes, OpIndia pushes far-right agenda that doesn't change
| the fact stated in the article I linked that Md. Zubair has
| deleted his facebook page after people started reporting
| his post.
|
| BTW, what agenda Alt News promote? Regarding injustice, if
| you are alive atleast you can hope for justice.
|
| What justification you are going to provide for beheading
| of Hindus?
| tr1ll10nb1ll wrote:
| I really wish dang locks down this post right now. It's
| hard to have a logical discussion when certain parties
| involved in the discussion (like you, currently)
| sensationalize everything disproportionately.
|
| There is no point in having a petty argument when your
| whole world view is warped and you don't recognize what's
| going on in your country. You seem to only be focused on
| one-quarter of the reality that favors your views. It
| might be due to willful ignorance, it might be due to
| bigotry, who knows. I'm not accusing you of any of those,
| just stating the possibilities.
|
| Either way, it comes to down to savagery in discussions
| like these and just shows you don't intend to seek the
| truth rather intend to provoke others around you.
|
| P.S This is not directed at just you. This is directed at
| others who practice similar ways of getting their point
| across as you.
|
| Sorry about the rant, but it's annoying and sickening.
| Hizonner wrote:
| Hmm. Just a crazy idea. What if nobody went around beheading
| people for insulting their prophet, AND nobody went around
| arresting people for insulting their deity? And what if both
| the beheadings and the bogus arrests were punished by law? And
| what if nobody were allowed to get away with trying to use
| either one to justify the other?
|
| I mean, I'm not sure a guy who's been dead for 1200 years AND
| supposedly has the favor of God needs any protecting, but I'm
| also not sure than any actual gods are in a lot of need of
| protecting.
|
| Not that either arrest or beheading would be an appropriate
| response to an insult to an actually living and vulnerable
| person, either.
| boruto wrote:
| Technically he isn't arrested for insulting diety. But I dont
| support his arrest, It's just stupid that process is the
| punishment.
| bipulranjan wrote:
| It is not an crazy idea and that is what is being practised
| in India. In fact, India does not have any blashphemy law. We
| do have section 295A (https://indiankanoon.org/doc/1803184/).
|
| The atmosphere become highly polarized after Md. Zubair
| selectively amplified the outrageous comment on social media.
| He even translated the video in Arabic for middle-east
| countries to take note. He rejoiced on twitter when the
| Islamic nations was summoning Indian ambassadors and Indian
| product was being boycotted. If you are going at that length
| to malign image of any country then certainly people have
| right to demand legal action against your mischief.
| ycycman wrote:
| The 2018 post was a 1983 movie clip cleared by the Indian censor
| board.
|
| How does sharing a mainstream Indian movie clip in 2018 be
| considered as offensive? The Indian government has stooped a lot.
|
| The YC company razorpay founder from his previous tweets has
| serious inclination towards the ruling government, that's the
| reason he sold out private data without court order.
| rdl wrote:
| I'm not a lawyer, nor am I an Indian lawyer, but if Razorpay
| received a Section 91 order
| (https://indiankanoon.org/doc/788840/) they wouldn't have much
| choice on turning over any records. It looks to be the rough
| equivalent of third party doctrine in the US (which is also
| horrible).
|
| It can come from "any Court or any officer in charge of a police
| station".
|
| Banks and fintech in many countries are even more exposed to data
| demands than regular data processors.
|
| Pitchforks may be justified here, but perhaps not directed at
| Razorpay.
| akshaybhalotia wrote:
| Would they care to share a copy of the order, in that case?
| colechristensen wrote:
| I would be upset if an American company was enabling this kind
| of government abuse in a foreign country. A local company
| complying with local laws? Ok I recognize that it is bad but I
| don't blame a company with following their local laws. You can
| only expect so much rebellion.
| [deleted]
| randomperson_24 wrote:
| Razorpay did receive a Section 91 order according to their
| tweet: https://twitter.com/Razorpay/status/1544313411621646338
| dang wrote:
| Ok, I've edited the title above to include this detail.
| (Submitted title was "Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared
| donor data without court order".)
|
| This is less moderation than we would normally do. Under
| normal circumstances, we would not allow a submitter to use a
| text post to put their own tendentious spin on a story like
| this--especially when the account seems politically driven
| (e.g. bringing up past partisan tweets to bolster a political
| case, which is not in the intended spirit of HN). Most
| probably we'd change the post to point to the most neutral
| third-party article we could find--or, if someone had already
| posted one, we might merge this thread into it.
|
| However, the first principle of HN moderation is that we
| moderate less, not more, when YC or a YC startup is involved
| (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu
| ...). So I'm suspending normal practice in favor of this
| relatively small intervention.
|
| Edit: I suppose I should add that none of what I've written
| here has to do with the specific details of the story, which
| I haven't personally looked into. Commenters in this thread
| seem to be doing a reasonable job of discussing it, with the
| exception of some veerings into religious/political flamewar,
| which we've done the usual moderation with.
|
| I suppose I should also add that we haven't downweighted the
| submission--its ranking is being determined by user voting
| and flagging. And we haven't pinned any comments, except the
| moderation replies in flamewar subthreads like
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32000788 and
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32000252 (standard
| practice).
| ridiculous_leke wrote:
| This is an important detail that OP missed in their post.
| jacquesm wrote:
| That wasn't an accident.
| maatrson wrote:
| Agree
| actuator wrote:
| I don't think @dang will pin the above comment, but this needs
| to be higher here as the reply includes that they received a
| legal order. This is maligning the company unjustly.
| randomperson_24 wrote:
| And unfortunately you are getting downvoted :(
| maatrson wrote:
| Exactly! They received a legal order and company has press
| release which completely justify action taken.
| [deleted]
| semanticvector wrote:
| exactly. Only intent is to malign Razorpay, so OP also chose
| to create a throw away account. Razorpay didn't really have
| much choice in this.
| throw_away_1042 wrote:
| The account I have used is more than a year old. I would be
| harassed by Hindutva goons online and offline if I use my
| real identity. Maybe also a false police case.
|
| Also Razorpay is not innocent here. They could have
| disputed the demand in the court. Could have informed the
| users that their data was shared with government. Could
| have shared only the transactions that originated in a
| foreign country.They did none of these.
|
| Also note that donations could not have been done with a
| foreign credit card. So the intent is to harass the
| individuals that supported the fack-checking website.
|
| Also, note that the founder and the company has been fans
| of the current nationalistic government. More reasons why
| they did not dispute the police demand.
|
| https://twitter.com/shashank_kr/status/1175974410202697728
|
| https://imgur.com/a/ZDRZZ87
| zinekeller wrote:
| Without knowing what is written on the Section 93 order,
| you and I don't know if the company in question can even
| limit the requests to what you propose. On the contrary,
| it could be written in no uncertain terms to give all
| transactions related to a certain organisation including
| domestic donations.
| boruto wrote:
| > They could have disputed the demand in the court.
|
| Why just that, they might as well fight the case for the
| accused.
|
| > Could have shared only the transactions that originated
| in a foreign country.They did none of these.
|
| We re sorry but it doesn't work like that. I am not sure
| if you understand that its not in hands of razor pay to
| bargain what they would like to share.
| flak48 wrote:
| This is the unfortunate reality of India; the government/police
| don't need to actually go to court. It can harass companies and
| executives by simply threatening to / actually carrying out
| unnecessary 'raids' through the tax department.
|
| The usual process is for the a bunch of policemen and
| beareaucrats to just show up unannounced; seal the office so that
| no one can enter or leave, and seize computers / phones, files
| and demand random stuff like invoices for $10 purchases from
| three years ago and so on. This can happen regularly until all
| business basically comes to a halt (unless the company complies
| with whatever the government wants). [1]
|
| The next step is to threaten arrests and actually carry out some
| arrests on trumped up charge, and you can wait forever until
| trial (unless you comply with what the government wants). The
| trials usually result in acquittal after several years but the
| process is the punishment. The media in the meanwhile is happy to
| go along with the official version (that the company is question
| is allegedly employing shady accounting practices).
|
| The next stage is painting the company as 'anti national',
| arrange for a few mobs to harrass folks / attempt lynchings and
| finally actually 'dissappear'/kill people (this last step is
| usually reserved for judges/writers etc since others usually
| comply before this step)
|
| [1]: https://www.economist.com/asia/2021/10/02/indias-
| government-...
| worker_person wrote:
| the_biot wrote:
| That sure is a lot of nonsense. What we see in the US is the
| government, in the form of the police, abuses the people
| plenty. That's why there's so much protest when they actually
| kill people.
|
| And are people arming themselves more to protect themselves
| from the police? No.
| mrguyorama wrote:
| More importantly, the second amendment will not protect you
| from police. Many legally carrying innocent people have
| been shot and killed by the police, and there are very few
| cases of people defending themselves from a police officer
| and not going to jail
| [deleted]
| mellavora wrote:
| How is this working against civil forfeiture?
|
| How is this working against the % of the population
| incarcerated?
|
| disclaimer: gun owner and competitive sport shooter.
| samstave wrote:
| Personally, am convinced that the second amendment was co-
| opted to be a wedge-issue in that ; it actively separates
| groups, fills the media with plenty of wedge-based fluff
| while allowing them to skirt around the deeper truths etc.
|
| My grandpa always used to say:
|
| >> _I will never say "I am a gun owner"_ <-- Something gun
| owners should never say (see the 2nd amendment, as, when
| the 2nd amendment is repealed guess who they have a list of
|
| --
|
| Personally EVERYONE should know how to properly handle a
| gun. ESPECIALLY if you "hate guns" <-- If you hate guns,
| then you best be sure to know how to ensure (I love
| etymology; ensure - the act of being sure, proficient, con-
| fident (vouching for the fidelity|truth)) they are
| unloaded, safe, or disabled/locked/safe/well-kept/not
| around fucking kids on SSRIs.
|
| /rant.
| mellavora wrote:
| Your grandpa has more wisdom than I do.
|
| And yes, the 2nd was certainly co-opted. It is how
| politics is played; there is a very long list of co-opted
| issues which were not divisive before they became useful
| for politics.
| fouric wrote:
| Interestingly enough, if all of the above is true, then one can
| imagine that this very HN submission might be the work of a
| member of the Indian government/police wanting to increase
| pressure on Razorpay by applying negative PR to the company.
|
| Post-truth world is not pretty.
| flak48 wrote:
| There's another comment providing more context; Razorpay is
| facing flak from some folks because it gave up
| transaction/donor data for a journalist's company. (Razorpay
| is the payment provider for the journalist's company AltNews)
|
| The India government is actually trying their best to
| persecute the journalist (Mohd. Zubair) and putting pressure
| on Razorpay to get to AltNews/Zubair. (The govt. is trying to
| insinuate that the journalist is writing articles criticizing
| India on the behest of foreigners - by cooking up allegations
| that he has been receiving donations from people outside
| India)
|
| I'm only arguing that it's next to impossible to stand up to
| the government in India; Razorpay need not be pro-government
| or anti Alt news, they are likely being forced to comply with
| the Government's (perhaps extra legal) demands via shady
| tactics and they need to save their own skin.
| smashah wrote:
| It's concerning that YC is funding companies that are so aligned
| with BJP bigotry that they comply with invasion of privacy
| requests without a court order.
| sumedh wrote:
| If you dont comply with the govt, the govt can shut down your
| business without a due process if you dont have the money to
| fight.
| anon261114 wrote:
| I give zero sympathy or support to BJP and its destruction of
| India's democratic institutions.
|
| Yet, I can't agree with your comment.
|
| First, I don't think Razorpay supports BJP or its bigotry, at
| least openly.
|
| One indicator of that is that they have retained critical media
| like AltNews and Wire as customers from years. I don't think
| they'd do that if they were pro-BJP or pro-bigotry.
|
| Plus, I've noticed that rightwing companies and founders are
| generally very vocal about their support on social media (e.g.:
| PayTM, Zoho). They like boasting about their ideology. I don't
| see that with Razorpay or its founders. As far as I can see,
| Razorpay is "neutral".
|
| Second, I don't see how YC can avoid funding such companies.
| You can't really expect them to include a rightwing checkbox
| that automatically excludes founders. YC itself seems to ignore
| ideology anyway. To repeat the previous point, there's nothing
| visibly political about Razorpay. It's not involved in any
| Indian government projects. It's not a Huawei or Palantir of
| India. I really don't see how YC can avoid funding such
| companies.
|
| Third, the justice system that emerges from Indian laws, police
| training, and even its legal jurisprudence is anything but
| liberal. And that's ignoring the unethical malicious thinking
| that's prevalent in those people. We have sedition, UAPA, a
| quasi-blasphemy law, and a dozen other similar illiberal laws.
| Section 91 of the CrPC does seem to compel companies to hand
| over any information that's asked. I see this as an
| undesirable, but inevitable, outcome of our legal system.
| Whenever I donate, I do so knowing that I may come under
| government scrutiny some day.
|
| Probably, Razorpay could have resisted the demand a little. But
| I doubt any neutral company does that. And even if they did, it
| wouldn't be for too long - some lower court would have forced
| them to disclose transactions.
|
| A possible future outcome: The law and judiciary are
| increasingly turning into kangaroo courts. If Zubair or AltNews
| are declared terrorists under UAPA, all donors (who were just
| donating to upholding truth) can be labeled terror funders!
| ahamedirshad123 wrote:
| Go through the timeline of founder of Razorpay, and you will
| know.
| smashah wrote:
| neutrality in the face of bigotry seems like alignment, or at
| least it's a sign of a larger problem which you've very
| clearly laid out.
|
| I think it's time to consider Boycotting, divestment and
| sanctions of India since it's flat-spinning into the clutches
| of full-on fascism.
|
| Very sad.
| anon261114 wrote:
| On the same day Modi along with G7 countries were signing
| some declaration to protect democratic rights, his party in
| India was arresting Zubair for tweeting a scene from a
| 4-decade old movie. One commentator asked if G7 is trolling
| Indians.
|
| Western democracies can certainly do a better job if they
| are principled but they aren't. They take only two extreme
| positions - either be chummy with dictators or
| sanction/bomb them to oblivion. Little acts of social
| control to keep all the dictos in check doesn't seem to be
| taught in western capitalism's textbooks.
| methusala8 wrote:
| And India will reciprocate by boycotting all those
| countries which try to do this.
|
| But you are starting a new type of apartheid.
| honkler wrote:
| india already does aparthied of it's minorities, dalits
| (lower castes). So why not?
| [deleted]
| smashah wrote:
| As is your right.
|
| It will need to start from the individual level so I will
| be encouraging everyone around me to limit their exposure
| to Indian businesses.
| [deleted]
| methusala8 wrote:
| You can do whatever the F you want. I do not care.
| Neither do most people in this world.
| [deleted]
| harpic wrote:
| flareback wrote:
| What is "BJP"?
| jfk13 wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharatiya_Janata_Party
| ramraj07 wrote:
| If they find any company in India they're hitting a 50-50 that
| the company would do something like this. Only option then is
| not to invest in india?
| lazyninja987 wrote:
| londons_explore wrote:
| In some parts of the world, an official police request is
| equivalent to a court order.
| rg111 wrote:
| I do not know too much about these.
|
| But, couldn't they fight it in court?
| boruto wrote:
| > But, couldn't they fight it in court?
|
| Why would they? They want to do business without much
| headache.
| sneak wrote:
| Hard to make it in to court with dozens of broken bones.
| shaan7 wrote:
| And not much point after you data has _already_ been
| shared.
| thway_nohitler wrote:
| This is very sad to see, and makes me really worry about the
| people who got their names handed to the police.
|
| The current jingoistic BJP regime is doing all sorts of
| authoratarian things in India, like demolishing housing for
| merely taking part in protests [0].
|
| They have also used facial recognition techniques to identify
| mere protesters and punish them severely [1].
|
| They put a doctor in jail for saving lives of kids by paying for
| oxygen out of his own pocket, because he publicized those already
| dead [2].
|
| I am seriously worried about what will happen to the people whose
| names were in the donors' list.
|
| Will they be arrested, be put on some sort of shitlist and their
| lives will be made full of problems because they dared to fund a
| company that merely fact-check the lies spread by the IT cell of
| the ruling party?
|
| Note that, the tweet is a mere screenshot of a movie from 1983.
| The director or the producer of the movie aren't touched. But
| sharing the screenshot _unedited_ put him in jail [3]. It is also
| a major factor that he has an Arabic name.
|
| [0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-india-61785275
|
| [1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-citizenship-
| protest...
|
| [2]: https://www.freepressjournal.in/india/explained-who-is-dr-
| ka...
|
| [3]: https://m.thewire.in/article/communalism/kissi-se-na-
| kehna-m...
| hans1729 wrote:
| fyi, I get a `page not found` for [3].
| thway_nohitler wrote:
| Fixed, thanks.
| dang wrote:
| Please do not take HN threads into political flamewar. It's not
| what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for.
|
| We ban such accounts, and creating accounts to do it will
| eventually get your main account banned as well, so please
| don't.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| throwaway_1928 wrote:
| Referencing the BBC and the Wire here is the equivalent of
| quoting the WaPo when discussing Trump.
| [deleted]
| ahamedirshad123 wrote:
| You want him to refer India Today, Timesnow, republic, euro
| news, danik bhaskar and Dhinamalar?
|
| Or **opIndia?
| throwaway_1928 wrote:
| MrBlueIncognito wrote:
| Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement applies here. You
| couldn't refute the central point of something you
| disagreed with, so you resorted to sarcasm and mockery.
| Perhaps it would've helped if you had a proper
| counterargument based on facts and reason. Maybe you
| could have encouraged us to see things the way you do,
| but the comment you just wrote will only serve to nudge
| us to disagree more strongly with you.
| [deleted]
| notlukesky wrote:
| They jailed the CEO of Qwest who refused to share surveillance
| data with the NSA without a court order. This seems to be prudent
| in other jurisdictions as well, other than the US and now India
| of course.
|
| https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2007/10/qwest-ceo-nsa-punished...
| sneak wrote:
| Apple chose not-jail and not-ban when faced with the
| requirement that all iCloud users in China be subject to
| realtime CCP surveillance. Apple's iCloud operations in China
| (required under Chinese law for Chinese users) are in CCP-
| controlled datacenters.
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-ce...
|
| Then they did it again in the USA, preserving a backdoor in the
| end-to-end crypto of iMessage for the FBI:
|
| https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...
|
| If you are large enough, the laws don't apply to the
| government's strong-arm treatment of you. They have all the
| machine guns, you have none.
|
| Presumably Apple de facto does not have the right to widely
| publish surveillance-resistant end to end crypto without state
| retribution for same, even on home turf with ostensible 1A
| rights. This is why they are deploying clientside spyware to
| scan your local files for CP (or anything else they are forced
| to scan for in the future by a adversary-controlled DoJ or DHS
| (hello 2025)). The secure architecture of the iPhone and iPad
| make it impossible to alter or disable this functionality even
| on your own device.
|
| The power dynamic is the same in all large countries,
| regardless of political structure.
|
| You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
| Tepix wrote:
| > If you are large enough, the laws don't apply to the
| government's strong-arm treatment of you. They have all the
| machine guns, you have none.
|
| Interestingly this also works for small fish: If you are too
| small, you can get by without sticking to the rules because
| you won't be on the governments radar.
| sneak wrote:
| It's true. The rules applied (in practice) to small
| exchanges are not the same rules applied to Coinbase.
|
| Equal application/protection under the law is a myth.
| O__________O wrote:
| What Apple does publicly and privately are not the same
| thing, and if anything, Apple has a track record of not
| removing loopholes that would reduce the surface area
| available for secret agreements and/or orders; for example,
| iCloud being able to view data.
|
| Related:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter
| sneak wrote:
| iCloud Backup is not end to end encrypted and is readable
| by Apple. Same again for iCloud Photos. The Apple-readable
| iCloud Backup contains the keys for your iMessages, which
| means Apple can read those in realtime as they transit the
| servers (due to relaying the ciphertext, and having the
| keys from the non-e2e backup).
|
| Even if you disable iCloud Backup, everyone else you
| iMessage with will back up all your iMessages from the
| other end, because it is on by default.
|
| The idea that Apple can't read your data is mostly false.
| They can see all your photos and read all your chats, and
| all of the other files and app data from your device. They
| can do this without your device or password at any time.
|
| They do this for the US government _without a search
| warrant_ to over 30,000 user accounts per year, per their
| own transparency report.
| kasey_junk wrote:
| Worth noting that Nacchio was jailed for insider trading, not
| anything national security related. He wanted to present
| evidence that it was retaliatory for not working with the NSA
| but was not allowed to. His only other defense was he thought
| the company was doing better than it was even though Qwest own
| numbers said otherwise.
|
| The prosecution on the other hand documented pretty extensively
| that he and several Qwest execs were making false claims to the
| press to increase the Qwest share price so they could buy US
| West.
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