[HN Gopher] Project Helix by Adobe
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Project Helix by Adobe
        
       Author : thefilmore
       Score  : 76 points
       Date   : 2022-07-04 09:27 UTC (13 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.hlx.live)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.hlx.live)
        
       | wellthisisgreat wrote:
       | God, is there any hope Creative Cloud would go away and the
       | normal Adobe would come back?
        
       | dewey wrote:
       | It seems to be a no-code website builder for people who are
       | already in the Adobe ecosystem. For one-off landing pages or
       | websites an agency might build for projects this is probably a
       | good fit if they are already all-in on Adobe.
       | 
       | The hate here in the comments seem to be around developers
       | thinking they are the target group of this product when they are
       | clearly not.
        
         | nfreising wrote:
         | I agree that is clearly for non-developers that are in the
         | Adobe ecosystem, however to me it's still unclear why they
         | decided on this system. I thought about simple landing pages as
         | well, but they state this in the faqs:
         | 
         | "You can use Helix for small sites because it is very easy to
         | get started, but it works best for large sites with many
         | authors, frequent updates, and lots of traffic."
         | 
         | Which confuses me a bit about which kind of pages they
         | _intended_ to be created in Helix. They also talk about Stripe
         | integration for e-commerce shops.
        
           | dewey wrote:
           | > but it works best for large sites with many authors,
           | frequent updates, and lots of traffic.
           | 
           | I could see it being used for short-lived high traffic sites
           | like festivals, concerts, movie landing pages and other
           | typical agency-created sites. These might have multiple
           | authors to public posts, FAQ items and some small e-commerce
           | components.
        
       | mikl wrote:
       | When you see the words "by Adobe" and loose all interest
       | instantly.
       | 
       | Let me guess, whatever it is requires a Creative Cloud
       | subscription?
       | 
       | I do remember when I was excited about Adobe stuff. 20 years ago.
       | Since then, their virus-like "install a million things just to
       | run Photoshop" and awful licensing practises have put them next
       | to Oracle in the "avoid at all cost" category.
        
         | jb1991 wrote:
         | Agreed, I have a machine for which it is impossible to
         | uninstall CC completely. I'd have to bust out a full drive wipe
         | and OS reinstall just to get rid of an application. It's silly
         | that tools for artists would need to hook so deeply into the OS
         | and have no reasonable way to get rid of them.
        
           | alexalx666 wrote:
           | well that's rich, that's exactly what I noticed on my GF
           | MacBook Pro, always was putting off until later, good to know
           | that it does not makes sense to spend time on this. Would
           | love to find responsible and install My programs
        
             | fbanon wrote:
             | You can get unCC'd versions of Adobe tools if you know
             | where to look.
        
               | detritus wrote:
               | ...please, do go on?
        
               | sofixa wrote:
               | They mean piracy.
        
               | detritus wrote:
               | Oh. Right. Duh.
        
             | iasay wrote:
             | It's really easy to uninstall their stuff from a Mac. Done
             | it a few times. Just use the CC cloud app to uninstall the
             | main apps then use the CC uninstaller to do it. Then reboot
             | the mac. There are some things left in ~/Library you can
             | clean up manually afterwards and that's it.
        
               | jb1991 wrote:
               | It's not a full uninstall -- all kind of weird stuff
               | sticks around that hooks into various places. Just Google
               | all the things people do just to get the Adobe CC stuff
               | out of their Launchpad. Many users just create a junk
               | folder and throw it all in there because there is no way
               | to get rid of it on some machines.
        
               | iasay wrote:
               | That's absolutely not true.
        
         | pier25 wrote:
         | Just the other day I updated Adobe CC and it prompted me to
         | install yet another daemon to check for original Adobe
         | software.
        
         | iasay wrote:
         | I used to be like that but quite frankly nothing else comes
         | near Photoshop and Lightroom Classic for me. The bottom end
         | photo sub is cheap and you don't need to use any of the cloud
         | stuff.
        
           | tambourine_man wrote:
           | It's not you. Photoshop, Lightroom, Illustrator and InDesign
           | are on a class of their own. Unfortunately, nothing comes
           | close. If you don't like Premiere or After Effects, that are
           | great choices. Not so much for the rest of the suite.
           | 
           | I'm rooting for Affinity, because of the buy vs rent business
           | model and because Adobe need competition, but they still have
           | a long ways to go
        
             | spockz wrote:
             | What do you think of the ON1 suite? Their marketing
             | department is quite full of themselves. It also heavily
             | features content aware deletion, filters, and options to
             | replace a sky with some fancy one.
        
               | tambourine_man wrote:
               | It's an OK competitor to Lightroom, though I prefer Adobe
               | Camera Raw's rendering in most cases.
               | 
               | But Photoshop is harder to replace.
        
             | Pulcinella wrote:
             | Yeah there really isn't any replacement for After Effects
             | (well I guess there is Motion, but even Apple seems to
             | forget that exists).
             | 
             | I'm not super confident that Affinity will be able to do
             | it. Feature development seems to have really, really slowed
             | down. The gap between Adobe and Affinity has grown, rather
             | than shrank. Yeah Affinity's software has a lot of the same
             | main features, but it's like MS Word where there is a long
             | tail of very useful features where hardly anyone uses all
             | of them, but everyone uses a few. Affinity hasn't even come
             | close to integrating those kinds of features.
        
             | danielvaughn wrote:
             | I'm hoping Figma leans a bit on the illustrator market,
             | because their app is phenomenal. The vector editor is
             | great, but is clearly biased towards UI development. If
             | they could release a parallel product that is even close to
             | feature parity with Illustrator, I'd be very happy.
        
               | tambourine_man wrote:
               | Figma's selling point are collaboration, UI focus as you
               | mentioned and being a webapp (no install needed)
               | 
               | I think there's much to be done to compete with a general
               | purpose vector tool like Illustrator.
        
             | odessacubbage wrote:
             | clip studio pretty handedly outperforms illustrator for
             | vector images and publishing at this point imo.
        
         | pantulis wrote:
         | One of the procurement team members from a client said: "Adobe
         | is the most unpleasant vendor we work with". I was surprised
         | and then they added: "We prefer working with Oracle". Somehow
         | they have managed to out-Oracle Oracle.
        
           | Closi wrote:
           | I mean I hate adobe too, but being hated by the procurement
           | team (who are usually incentivised by reducing spend) doesn't
           | always mean that much.
           | 
           | Most procurement teams just love suppliers who will give them
           | big quotes and then provide a 50% 'discount' so they can get
           | a great big bonus for all the savings they achieved. Maybe
           | i'm being too pessimistic.
        
             | t0mas88 wrote:
             | This is really a myth, I've never seen any large enterprise
             | do this type of bonus on such a bogus construct and I've
             | seen many.
        
               | Closi wrote:
               | I've absolutely seen it, so it's not a myth.
               | 
               | I worked for a large company (>PS50bn revenue) that used
               | to do this in the UK - I had to sign off the 'savings' my
               | procurement stakeholders achieved on the projects (you
               | had to 'agree' their savings and sign them off) because
               | that would go into their performance reports which then
               | triggered their bonus. So it happens.
               | 
               | What else do you think procurement teams get targeted on
               | if not savings/price decreases?
               | 
               | So what do procurement teams hate? Things purchased from
               | a single supplier, with no competition/accepted
               | substitute, and no/little ability to negotiate the price
               | or payment terms.
        
             | pantulis wrote:
             | Ah, that's for sure. I just wanted to point out that we are
             | not talking about Vercel or Netlify here ;)
        
         | thatgerhard wrote:
         | Same, so over Adobe's last generation software clogging up work
         | computers
        
       | megax wrote:
       | This is an interesting move by Adobe, which appears like the
       | first step towards reasserting themselves in a hot WYSISWG CMS
       | authoring market that's currently dominated by folks like
       | Webflow. What makes it even more interesting is that their
       | enterprise CMS offering AEM (Adobe Experience Manager) will
       | certainly get a leg up as it relates to ease/flexibility, further
       | separating them from the market competition.
       | 
       | For the folks who are unaware, AEM is a tier 1 CMS powering many
       | top-shelf enterprise websites[1], competing with products
       | Contentful, Contentstack, Salesforce, etc.
       | 
       | I'm personally not a huge fan of their solution but they tick
       | many of the boxes clients typically ask for.
       | 
       | [1] https://trends.builtwith.com/cms/Adobe-Experience-Manager
       | 
       | It'll be interesting to see how this develops...
        
         | wolfhumble wrote:
         | I remember I heard about Adobe moving into the CMS business in
         | 1998 or 1999. I'm glad they finally got around doing it . . .
         | ;-)
        
           | kinglion75 wrote:
           | Adobe entered the CMS business long time ago, currently it's
           | for sure the leader in this category, leveraging the
           | acquisition of Day Software in 2010.
        
       | tronster wrote:
       | Another product called "Helix"?
       | https://www.perforce.com/products/helix-core
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | AngusH wrote:
       | So I've read through this, but the docs seem to assume you
       | already know what it does. (Which I'm still not sure that I do)
       | 
       | It seems to be a way of generating a website from a shared google
       | drive or MS sharepoint setup.
       | 
       | The google drive documents act as content which is mixed with
       | templates to generate a website.
       | 
       | But it doesn't seem to be static site generator, more like
       | wordpress with google drive (or sharepoint) as the content
       | database?
       | 
       | But then it also talks about the helix team doing work for you?
       | So it's maybe more of a service to create websites than a
       | technology stack?
       | 
       | It seems like there are some interesting ideas, but it also feels
       | like there should be more explanation.
        
       | Keyframe wrote:
       | So, what is this even? Site doesn't tell much. From what I've
       | gathered it's dreamweaver meets wix meets wordpress?
        
       | whywhywhywhy wrote:
       | Hope none of the hundreds I pay Adobe every year went to funding
       | this project.
        
       | boboche wrote:
       | Thanks Adobe, 3 minutes of my life wasted to figure out that you
       | have converted the bounce rate, after 2 second page load
       | hesitation, to epic ragequit after 3 minutes of having to go
       | through developper documentation to figure out whats the actual,
       | tangible and practical experience you are trying to sell.
        
       | bsenftner wrote:
       | Friend of mine tells me a headhunter perked up when he mentioned
       | he used this for his last project, and told him crazy salaries if
       | he wanted a job as the Helix specialist at several corporations.
       | Says he's investigating.
        
         | gertrunde wrote:
         | Perhaps the number of people who work with it is even less than
         | the number of people who know what it is? ;)
        
         | cwdegidio wrote:
         | Sounds like people with Adobe Experience Manager experience as
         | well. I think AEM salaries are high because there is no way to
         | learn it on your own (from my experience). You can only learn
         | it on the job because there is no "developer version" that I
         | know of.
        
           | kinglion75 wrote:
           | I understand your point, but I don't think is 100% accurate.
           | There are tons of tutorials on adobe.com and you can at least
           | study some open source projects (such as Adobe core
           | component) to understand how it works. If you mean there is
           | no downloadable free version of AEM you are definitely right,
           | but still some of the most important stuff can be learned by
           | using the open source stack on which AEM is built, like
           | Apache Felix, Apache OAK and Apache Sling. And I guess even
           | in the current market if you have java skills and you know
           | something about Felix, OAK and Sling it could be pretty easy
           | to get a good job contract (maybe not at the same salary, but
           | just with one year experience you can get a substantial
           | increase).
        
       | madspindel wrote:
       | Pricing?
        
       | tambourine_man wrote:
       | https://www.hlx.live/business/developer-productivity
       | 
       | "Helix has reinvigorated my passion for coding. The simplicity of
       | building something great and seeing it used by our visitors the
       | next day is a joy like no other. Kenny"
       | 
       | Who's Kenny? Has no one reviewed this page? I hope that's not a
       | signal of how important this project really is to Adobe.
        
         | tambourine_man wrote:
         | This link now redirects to the home page. Good for them.
         | 
         | It's on Wayback Machine, but the indexing breaks the page. One
         | must inspect the source code.
         | 
         | https://web.archive.org/web/20220704092727/https://www.hlx.l...
        
       | cwdegidio wrote:
       | Really curious how this ties into AEM. There is way too much
       | marketing speak to parse out the relationship.
        
       | fxtentacle wrote:
       | "https://www.hlx.live/business/experience-effectiveness" looks to
       | me like they didn't intend to publish this yet. I mean the
       | formatting is off and they have 3 feature boxes without icons..
       | looks really unfinished to me.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | vnm wrote:
         | Yep https://www.hlx.live/robots.txt
        
       | cush wrote:
       | According to their FAQ https://pages.adobe.com/ redirects to some
       | demo pages.
       | 
       | "Is Helix a good solution for landing pages?
       | 
       | https://pages.adobe.com is a great example how Adobe uses Helix
       | to manage hundreds of landing pages, owned by dozens of
       | independent teams."
        
       | vnm wrote:
       | How is it ok for a serious company to claim that their solution
       | is the "fastest on the web", as if nobody else can hit the same
       | performance marks?
       | 
       | And what's with the code? Why not use TypeScript, at least?
       | 
       | https://github.com/adobe/helix-website/blob/main/tools/sidek...
        
       | monkey_monkey wrote:
       | I'm trying to understand the thought process that would lead
       | someone to decide that this wierd and entirely proprietary
       | solution is the best way to build a website for their
       | organisation.
        
         | skonteam wrote:
         | Adobe money...
        
       | greencore wrote:
       | I will never trust Adobe on their development platforms after
       | they were lying to developers about bright Flash future while
       | silently killing it and wasting number of years of their careers
       | on dead horse.
        
         | dylan604 wrote:
         | If you're tea leaf reading skills were so underdeveloped to not
         | see that Flash was doomed, then that's kind of on you to get
         | better. Flash was being berated everywhere about its problems,
         | yet it was still being pushed because it was _the_ thing.
         | 
         | Flash had so so much against it even thouh it had a lot of
         | things that make it sound like such a perfect solution. Write
         | once, deploy anywhere...except there's a lot of baggage we're
         | not going to tell you about. Eventually, that baggage is well
         | understood and then exploited. The damn player released by the
         | maker was the main vector before even running code written by
         | any 14 year old. This was all before Jobs' little letter.
        
           | blooalien wrote:
           | > "Write once, deploy anywhere" ... _anywhere Adobe deems
           | acceptable, that is._
        
         | xbar wrote:
         | I think you are smart.
        
         | Comevius wrote:
         | Adobe Flash was killed by smartphones and HTML5, but Harman
         | still offers support for it.
         | 
         | https://services.harman.com/partners/adobe
         | 
         | "wasting number of years of their careers on dead horse"
         | 
         | The world keeps changing, it's on you for putting all your
         | money on a horse that was obviously not going to make it.
        
         | cush wrote:
         | Is the market for flash devs really that different than similar
         | software? I highly doubt those Flash devs ended up on the
         | street.
         | 
         | Aside from that, Adobe has like 100 other pieces of software
         | that creators have trusted going back to the early 80s. They
         | have sustained millions and millions of successful careers.
        
         | jarjoura wrote:
         | Flash was a Macromedia product that Adobe acquired. I don't
         | think the team that worked on it foresaw the rapid shift to
         | touchscreen mobile devices. Even so, there's no way Adobe could
         | have competed with Apple and Google's push towards Javascript
         | and HTML5 during those two companies early WebKit
         | collaboration.
         | 
         | I wouldn't fault Adobe for at least trying to find a future for
         | the technology they spent a lot of R&D on. I certainly wouldn't
         | call them liars. If you missed the very public industry shift
         | towards Javascript and HTML5, that's on you.
        
         | enlyth wrote:
         | I will never give Adobe a penny again in my life after going
         | through their abysmal cancellation process littered with dark
         | patterns and manipulation for one of their subscriptions, on
         | top of being charged a fee to cancel.
        
           | finfinfin wrote:
           | I contested the cancellation fee in PayPal and Adobe didn't
           | bother to respond, so the case was auto-resolved in my favor.
           | 
           | Since then I switched to PixelmatorPro and it works for all
           | my needs.
        
         | willio58 wrote:
         | To be a devils advocate for a second, what did you expect them
         | to do? If Adobe came out and said "flash is dead" too early, it
         | would be the nail in the coffin. By waiting decade(s) past its
         | peak usefulness to kill it, they probably kept more people in
         | flash jobs for longer than they would have otherwise. And if
         | you as a developer couldn't see flash's demise on the horizon,
         | isn't that at least partially on you?
        
           | badsectoracula wrote:
           | > To be a devils advocate for a second, what did you expect
           | them to do?
           | 
           | Open source the Flash Player code and work towards properly
           | defining the SWF format. They could have kept their shiny IDE
           | that a ton of people knew how to use and work with but also
           | made it possible for Flash to become part of the open web -
           | since it was actually useful.
           | 
           | This is something that they were repeatedly asked to do, but
           | never ended up doing because Adobe wanted to have full
           | control over it - and ended up having full control of
           | something dead.
        
             | Cyberdog wrote:
             | > Open source the Flash Player code
             | 
             | This sounds easy, but it isn't. Major commercial closed-
             | source projects often include third-party software which
             | itself isn't under OSS licenses, and publishing the project
             | without violating those licenses means removing them from
             | the code base before open sourcing it (which may result in
             | a completely non-functional project), negotiating with the
             | provider of the third-party software to allow for their
             | code to be open-sourced (probably impossible), or replacing
             | the licensed code with free alternatives (which may not
             | exist, most likely have a different API if they do exist,
             | and would take developer resources to develop from
             | scratch).
             | 
             | All this preparation for OSSing the code base takes work,
             | and where's the bottom line? How would Adobe, a public
             | company with shareholders and all that nonsense, profit
             | from OSSing Flash? It wouldn't make them business sense to
             | do so.
             | 
             | That's not to say this sort of thing never happens (see
             | Netscape and Mozilla), but it's just never as simple as
             | "they should just release the source."
        
               | frognumber wrote:
               | The major reason I don't use Adobe is lack of trust in
               | Adobe. I want my files to work next year, and in 10
               | years. That's also why I don't use anything B2B from
               | Google, and avoid Oracle (who doesn't break products the
               | same way as Adobe and Google, but tends to milk cash cows
               | in unpleasant ways).
               | 
               | The payback on open-sourcing something like Flash is
               | maintaining trust. I trust open-source. I trust a few
               | commercial companies who invest like crazy in maintaining
               | trust (e.g. Microsoft or AWS). That leads to business on
               | unrelated product lines down-the-line.
        
               | None4U wrote:
               | Amazon managed to do it with CryEngine
        
               | blooalien wrote:
               | And yet there exist open source Flash renderers [0] to
               | this day which can render much of that old Flash content
               | with little to no issues. Kinda sad that multiple _other_
               | folks could each independently accomplish what Adobe
               | themselves could not.
               | 
               | [0]: https://alternativeto.net/software/flash-
               | player/?license=ope...
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | SV_BubbleTime wrote:
           | It's also not like they killed the flash devs when the
           | project ended. I'm pretty sure most of them were fine and
           | able to learn new work somewhere else or in another dept.
           | 
           | Of all the places I expected to see a top comment attacking
           | Adobe for killing flash... yea actually nevermind, it's
           | backwards enough to make sense here ;)
        
       | nfreising wrote:
       | So I spent a while on their page,
       | https://www.hlx.live/business/project-plan seems to have the best
       | explanation how Adobe thinks you should use their product.
       | However I still don't really see the use case:
       | 
       | > Helix dynamically renders HTML via Markdown that is generated
       | from the content source documents. Markdown provides an
       | abstraction as well as filter for content created in the various
       | different data sources and strips all the formatting that cannot
       | easily be projected into HTML semantics. This means you don't
       | have to worry about authors picking the wrong font, size, or
       | color, Helix will take care that your final site looks as the
       | design specs say.
       | 
       | So it's just generating a markdown document from my Word document
       | and dynamically renders that to HTML. It seems like a weird SSG
       | that isn't static, relies on proprietary files stored in either
       | Google Drive or SharePoint, and seems to be aimed at Content
       | Creators that are not tech savy at all (why else would you prefer
       | Word over md files?).
       | 
       | However all that is still very confusing and it looks a bit like
       | the project changed direction during development (e.g. there's
       | still mention of GitHub as file storage which has been
       | discontinued in the faqs etc.) I still don't see who would use
       | this for their site.
        
         | tambourine_man wrote:
         | They probably weren't expecting the scrutiny of HN. Most pages
         | we discuss here are now redirecting to the home page. The one
         | you linked to included.
        
         | pornel wrote:
         | This is the Dropbox for your rsync.
         | 
         | The hard part in maintaining a website by a team of non-geeks
         | is _not_ a Markdown renderer, but the fact that people have
         | their own preferred tools and workflows, and aren 't keen on
         | learning yet another one. All the extra export/import/sync
         | steps are a pain for them, and cause chaos when collaborating.
         | You update the Markdown version, someone else changes the Word
         | version instead, a third person hates Word, and someone else
         | puts notes on GitHub, and now you need to train half a dozen
         | people how to clone a repo and how to fix a detached head.
        
           | nine_k wrote:
           | Markdown though looks like a _really_ constraining medium.
        
           | michaelmrose wrote:
           | Why would you want there to be a separate upload and file
           | sync step instead of simply editing in the browser?
        
             | mbreese wrote:
             | Versioning? Publishing workflow?
             | 
             | People might like to pass around a draft before publishing
             | an article. Maybe to an editor for feedback. That's easiest
             | done with a Word document.
             | 
             | Then, when you're ready to publish, just save the file to
             | the right location. It's easier than opening an CMS and
             | copying/pasting (marginally).
        
         | yetanother12345 wrote:
         | > So it's just generating a markdown document from my Word
         | document and dynamically renders that to HTML.
         | 
         | Ages ago (probably more than 15 years or so) I generated HTML,
         | even multi-page web sites from within Word itself, using VBA.
         | It required some proficiency in VBA but Word already had a
         | structure that you could translate with different classes of
         | headings, font modifications, etc. - so it wasn't exactly
         | "rocket science" either. I did the same in Excel, but here more
         | focused on autogenerating pseudo "db-driven" sites than on
         | prose.
         | 
         | Typically these would be "intranet" apps, but I believe some
         | may have been exposed to the www. Being static sites, security
         | was like any other pure HTML site.
         | 
         | > I still don't see who would use this for their site.
         | 
         | My customers were in marketing. They already used these Office
         | tools and they found it a real advantage that they could just
         | continue to use these tools.
         | 
         | This was before WP got to the dominant position (and level of
         | user-friendlyness) it has today. It's still possible though.
        
       | skilled wrote:
       | It's very rare I get frustrated with landing pages, but holy
       | guacamole... is it so hard to link to demo websites? Is it so
       | hard to provide a quick demo of a landing page? What are those
       | lousy screenshots on the "Built with Helix" section?
       | 
       | The only one I could make out was blog.adobe.com - and by the
       | looks of it that was no small feat to make such a conversion
       | happen.
       | 
       | Very unhappy, even more so seeing Adobe trying to get away with a
       | barebones product explanation.
       | 
       | EDIT: Ok, after going through the comments in this thread - it
       | looks like Adobe doesn't even intend to have this site published
       | yet. That's my impression of it also.
        
       | Paul_S wrote:
       | I just get a blank page on firefox.
        
       | interestica wrote:
       | Brackets was actually my favourite code editor on Mac and it was
       | discontinued by Adobe. It left a bad taste in my mouth. It seems
       | that they are trying to replace it with "Phoenix" which is
       | entirely web-based and kinda seems to defeat the purpose.
       | 
       | It looks like brackets may have some others keeping it alive.
       | 
       | The project helix page comes off quite hilarious on mobile for
       | me. "these aren't the droids you're looking for" followed closely
       | by an uncaptioned screenshot and then a long scroll of a blank
       | orange canvas only to be greeted at the bottom with "You can go
       | about your business."
        
       | AndrianV wrote:
       | I've taken some time to try to comprehend what this tool is
       | doing, but I still don't get it. Could someone kindly clarify?
       | Similar websites include http://webflow.com, https://siter.io,
       | and http://www.squarespace.com. ? What exactly is this?
       | 
       | I understand: Speed - ok, the same can do other platforms
       | 
       | Migration - ok same can do othe rplatforms
       | 
       | Create content in Microsoft Word or Google Docs - realy Adobe?
       | 
       | Stop wasting developer time on framework churn - start wasting
       | time on Helix.
        
         | jjbinx007 wrote:
         | I wish pages like this were written by techies for techies
         | rather than by a Marketing dept
        
           | duxup wrote:
           | I wish there was always a mirrored nuts and bolts page for
           | every marketing page.
        
             | krisoft wrote:
             | But it has one!
             | 
             | In the top menu click "Getting Started / Build your first
             | site". And that tells you how exactly it works.
             | 
             | Do you want even more details? Click "Documentation /
             | Architecture"
             | 
             | Are you seeing the same page I'm seeing? I'm confused by
             | all these complaints.
        
           | danielvaughn wrote:
           | It definitely feels like this was written for someone on an
           | executive team, rather than the person who would actually use
           | the product.
        
             | blooalien wrote:
             | That's because when you're Adobe, you sell to that person
             | on the executive team who then _mandates_ that everyone use
             | it, whether they like it or not, because of how much money
             | the company just paid Adobe for it.
        
           | 9dev wrote:
           | I think that's pretty much the point - this is kind of a SSG
           | generator that is usable by non-techies...
        
         | keyle wrote:
         | It's adobe. By the time we understand it, it will be cancelled.
        
         | appleflaxen wrote:
         | > Faster. Better. Period.
         | 
         | Is it a menstrual tracker?
        
         | smelbe wrote:
         | website with Microsoft word is like websites with notion...
        
       | anodari wrote:
       | Is an Wix alternative?
        
         | whywhywhywhy wrote:
         | Judging from the domain, I feel that's what they're hoping.
         | 
         | I imagine someone on the team felt very strongly Wix might
         | still have the advantage if they can't secure a 3 letter domain
         | name.
        
       | daviddever23box wrote:
       | Does anyone else find it interesting that the architectural
       | diagram (https://github.com/adobe/helix-
       | home/blob/main/docs/Helix%20A...) is in an OmniGraffle file
       | format?
        
       | ksec wrote:
       | For a moment I thought Adobe brought Real Media [1]. Which
       | despite the hatred against it, is a surprisingly good video
       | codec.
       | 
       | [1] https://realnetworks.com/products-services/helix
        
       | bonaldi wrote:
       | Easy is hard. That is, to make something easy for _users_ , you
       | have to work hard to build great tools for them. Helix appears to
       | be punting on that.
       | 
       | Examples:
       | 
       | > Helix dynamically renders HTML via Markdown that is generated
       | from the content source documents.
       | 
       | Markdown is a lossy format. Sometimes that's good (it'll strip
       | unwanted Word formatting), but there are vital things that get
       | lost too. (The easiest to grasp are the internationalisation
       | issues, like mixing right-to-left and left-to-right scripts in
       | the same paragraph, or multiple language spans.)
       | 
       | > To add metadata to your page, create a table like this at the
       | end of the document
       | 
       | And how is this better than an actual tool, with actual field
       | validation, helpful UX, etc? It's not: it's undiscoverable magic
       | boxes with inexplicable (to the user) side-effects that oblige
       | users to remember secret incantations (or sticky them to their
       | screens) and hope everything works out all right.
       | 
       | This is the opposite of "intuitive and fast". Which anybody
       | familiar with AEM won't be surprised by.
        
       | andybak wrote:
       | Helix is currently made available to select AEM Sites customers
       | in the Helix VIP program. If you are interested in learning more
       | about Helix, getting a personalized demo, and want to understand
       | how Helix can make your site better, reach out to your Adobe
       | account manager and mention the keyword #helix-chat.
       | 
       | If you are impatient, a developer, or both, take a look at the
       | Helix Developer Tutorial in the meantime.
        
         | nix23 wrote:
         | #helix-chat is that the keyword for the chatbot?
         | 
         | I dont get it VIP??? Really?? AEM Sites? Whats that?
         | 
         | Are you from marketing?
        
           | ImprobableTruth wrote:
           | I'm 99% sure they just copypasted from the 'Get Demo' page:
           | 
           | https://www.hlx.live/business/demo
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | andybak wrote:
           | I don't understand it either. I was just pasting it to try
           | and be helpful.
        
             | nix23 wrote:
             | Ah ok, was thinking your the head of adobe marketing ;)
        
         | TimSchumann wrote:
         | Nothing on the page linked even describes what 'Helix' is, much
         | less why I would want it.
         | 
         | That whole site seems like excessive marketing fluff written by
         | someone who's been living and breathing whatever this project
         | is for years.
         | 
         | Assume I have no idea what it does or why I'd want it. Use
         | small words and no acronyms. Also, less words. Then, as simply
         | as possible, tell me what it is and what it does for me from a
         | technical standpoint. I'll decide for myself if it's useful.
        
           | krisoft wrote:
           | > Nothing on the page linked even describes what 'Helix' is,
           | much less why I would want it.
           | 
           | I think this is unfair criticism. Right at the top it says:
           | 
           | "Helix is the fastest way to launch new sites and deliver the
           | fastest pages on the web, as a bonus it is also the most
           | intuitive and fastest way to create and publish content."
           | 
           | That is what it is and that is why you would want to use it.
           | It is a way to create new websites fast. And it promises that
           | those websites will be fast, and you will be able to update
           | them fast.
           | 
           | These are small and simple words.
        
             | KerrAvon wrote:
             | 1. Small and simple words *for a technical audience*, not
             | C-suite know-nothings. An example might be something like
             | "Generates HTML statically from Markdown documents in a Git
             | repository with a built-in caching server with load
             | balancing to edge servers for an additional fee" --
             | whatever it actually does. Nowhere that I can easily find
             | does it describe how it does what it claims.
             | 
             | 2. Claiming to be "fastest" is usually a good way to get
             | your ass handed to you.
        
           | egypturnash wrote:
           | _What is Helix? (if you like tech jargon) Helix let's [sic]
           | business users ingest and publish markdown documents and
           | spreadsheets from Microsoft Office or Google Docs and Sheets
           | into a scalable, distributed content repository and
           | dynamically renders HTML (and JSON, webp, etc.) to produce
           | fast websites and actively manages cache consistency with
           | your existing CDN infrastructure.
           | 
           | Helix let's [sic] frontend devs develop and deploy the design
           | and functionality of their website with CSS and JavaScript
           | directly in their GitHub repos._
           | 
           | - cut and pasted from near the bottom of the page
        
       | winkelwagen wrote:
       | Great, Google docs and share point, does that mean we have an
       | extra dependency on Microsoft and Google not to break any of
       | their apis? Managing formatting straight from a document sounds
       | like a recipe for disaster if you don't own the whole stack. I
       | really wonder how a company like adobe is managed.I'm sure they
       | have some great selling products with great margins. But the
       | creative industry is beginning to hate their products more and
       | more. Yes they might have a a good unmatched creative suite as a
       | whole, but if professionals can't do their work anymore because
       | of serious deteriorating of quality between versions. Was
       | following a Twitter rant from Ashe thorp a while ago, he isn't
       | one to whine about anything quickly, but that guy is so well
       | connected and in think his network pretty much operates is
       | anything cutting edge design wise, avatar, Microsoft film etc. At
       | this point I chose for an alternative to adobe products they
       | might be a better deal, but I wouldn't trust your paying my
       | mortgage on anything in adobe creative suite. I'd rather invest
       | upfront in something that I know will get better over time
       | instead of worse.
        
       | status200 wrote:
       | Sure, i'll use this tool and then in a few months Adobe will want
       | a monthly subscription fee or they break all my links or
       | something.
       | 
       | Such a low effort site as well, ugly design and i found at least
       | a couple dead links that redirect back to the homepage (e.g.
       | https://www.hlx.live/business/project-plan)
        
       | hansword wrote:
       | Is this the most current Adobe Dreamweaver? As an online service?
       | 
       | I think it's hilarious there are 20 comments here, and all are
       | voicing confusion at what the product is and does?
        
       | ecmascript wrote:
       | In typical launch fashion, I read the site but still couldn't
       | figure out what it was. Closed it pretty fast after that.
       | 
       | I don't understand why people insist in not explaining what it is
       | they're selling in a clear, simple manner.
        
         | geraltofrivia wrote:
         | Some sell technology, some sell vision. The latter involves
         | trusting them/submitting to their vision which would put off a
         | lot of developers, I feel, but still create intrigue in
         | managerial circles for them to get traction.
         | 
         | I can't remember which but there was a post about this, in the
         | context of cloud service providers, a few weeks ago, on
         | Hackernews Top. Will add if I can find it.
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | icemelt8 wrote:
         | site builder from microsoft word
        
         | albertopv wrote:
         | "What is Helix?" is the 4th question in FAQ page:
         | https://www.hlx.live/docs/faq
         | 
         | There's really something wrong if you have to put a question to
         | FAQ list to tell what your product is and that question is not
         | the first one in the list.
        
           | TimSchumann wrote:
           | And even then... it really doesn't answer what exactly
           | 'Helix' is. A subscription service? An API?
           | 
           | How do I interact with it? What's the value add? What's the
           | use case? Why would I even want this thing?
        
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