[HN Gopher] A phone app called Lumenate claims to alter the brai...
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A phone app called Lumenate claims to alter the brain's rhythms
(2021)
Author : greenSunglass
Score : 137 points
Date : 2022-07-04 08:01 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.vice.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.vice.com)
| mgdlbp wrote:
| Very similar to last year's post on the hallucination-inducing 15
| Hz red/black 'Ganzflicker',
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27669211
|
| Direct link to fullscreen flicker: (warning)
|
| kerblooee.github.io/ganzflicker
| davesque wrote:
| What am I supposed to be seeing in that flicker effect? Doesn't
| do anything for me.
| msk-lywenn wrote:
| I see that vertical sync still isn't working in my browser
| technothrasher wrote:
| I don't know what you're supposed to see, but the first thing
| it did to me was make the whole room go dark, then saw some
| geometric patterns, followed by the silhouette of a man with
| light exploding out from his limbs, and finally saw a long
| tunnel heading away into the distance. Funky.
| davesque wrote:
| Lol, you had me there NGL.
| technothrasher wrote:
| I swear, that's what I saw. It wasn't really hardcore
| like I was actually tripping, but more like trying to
| interpret a Rorschach inkblot. I just tried it again.
| Same darkening of my vision, but this time I saw the
| tunnel first, then a crucifix, and then Conway's Game of
| Life like patterns.
| bgroat wrote:
| It gives me the sensation of hurtling/spinning through a
| tunnel surrounded by teeth
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| Yeah, there's serious study on this. Like, my dad did the
| Ganzfeld experiment back in the 80s with the ping pong balls
| over the eyes with red LED's in them... There's even serious
| scientific study on it [1] looking into the differences of the
| effect between people with mental imagery vs aphantasia. Here's
| another study which looks at fMRI scans of people with the
| goggles on [2]. This Vice commercial-for-an-app-as-an-article
| doesn't even touch on any of that, which is pretty weak even by
| the journalistic standards of this publication. I'm sure I've
| seen older Vice articles that weren't just an ad for an app
| which delved into this more seriously.
|
| I've tried both white and red light myself and found the red
| light you linked to be a LOT more evocative.
|
| [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34172274/
|
| [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-75019-3
| mgdlbp wrote:
| Tbf OP does link to research of its own[3] by a team with "a
| relationship" to the app. [1] is actually what last year's
| submission is based on. Following the references, there's
| quite a number of papers on flicker-induced entoptic
| phenomena.
|
| [3] https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/511766v1.full
| gpas wrote:
| Similar to roXiva[0] but for mobiles. Imho the "competitor"
| website does a better job at explaining the science behind the
| product.
|
| [0] https://roxiva.com/
| 14 wrote:
| I have to pass on this one. The first thing it makes you do is
| sign up for an account. I have better things to do then another
| sign up. I'm willing to pay a fair price it pass when I need to
| sign up and agree to their terms of service.
| tomduncalf wrote:
| Not sure if it addresses your issues with signing up or not,
| but on Apple devices you can "sign in with Apple" which is one
| touch and hides your email address from them. No need to even
| create a password.
| jtode wrote:
| I built a copy of the dreamachine once - I had a Re/Search book
| about Burroughs, Gyson, etc, and there were lots of pictures,
| possibly there were even measurements, I don't recall. Anyways, I
| just got some thick paper and cut out the holes, the hardest part
| was finding a working record player that did 78 in the late 90s.
| It wasn't nothing, but it also wasn't much.
|
| I also remember trying out a more fun device at the third
| Lollapalooze where you lay with your face to the sun and the
| thing fit over your face like a snorkel mask, with a little
| plastic tube you blew into and which spun a thingy and did the
| same effect. What was neat about that one was that you could
| control the intensity of the visuals by blowing harder or softer,
| by tilting your head for more or less light, etc - more
| interaction makes better fun.
|
| A more capable than me friend even had a go at an electronic
| version with LEDs, but it was also more boring. I wish I had
| bought the snorkel mask.
| kwatsonafter wrote:
| Adding the breath to the equation is really smart. Thanks for
| sharing. Brion Gysin is one of my favorite artists.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| Had a lot more fun making a dreamachine than using it. Kinda a
| big shrug.
| MrYellowP wrote:
| 99% of what he wrote is unrelated to what he should have written
| about, but this is no surprise given that it reads like it's
| written by someone who, not once in his life, experienced a high.
|
| Because he had barely anything to share about the experience
| (which means he definitely was NOT high), he filled the article
| with as much as he can about everything _around_ what he should
| be talking about.
| jalino23 wrote:
| what is it like to experience a high?
| travisjungroth wrote:
| It's incredibly broad. I'm not trying to quibble, but it
| depends on what you mean by "high". There are two major
| overlapping groups of experiences you could be talking about.
| There's the euphoria and energizing high associated with
| stimulants (see Jones, Casey 1970). Then there's the
| psychedelic high. The second one is what's being talked about
| here. (Again, these experiences aren't distinct but it would
| more clear if they each had their own word).
|
| The experience of a psychedelic high is incredibly broad.
| It's like asking "what's it like to experience a vacation?".
| It might be relaxing if you're on the beach in Barbados. It
| might be exhilarating if you're skiing in the Alps. It might
| be serious work if you're cave diving in Tulum. Then there's
| the individual experience. Do you feel relaxed and free from
| your job? Do you feel stressed because you can't stop
| thinking about it? Fighting with your family? Connecting with
| them? Lonely? Content?
|
| In defense of the person you're replying to, someone could
| give you an impression they've never been on a vacation by
| the way they talk about it. It's not that their experience is
| different than yours, it's just that what they're saying
| doesn't seemed to be informed by any sort of experience at
| all.
|
| Even though psychedelic highs are incredibly broad, there are
| a few common (usually opposing) themes. The first is
| hallucinations. These are perceptions that aren't real, or
| more generously, outside of consensus reality. If the paint
| on the wall looks like it's flowing, it won't to anyone else
| in the same room. At least not in the same way. You could
| feel a snake wrapping around you, but a video recording
| wouldn't show one. Then there are delusions, which are
| beliefs disconnected from reality. You believe you're Jesus.
| You believe someone is out to get you. You believe nothing
| bad could possibly happen to you.
|
| You could feel complete boundary dissolution. Everything is
| one. Or, strong separateness. You're talking to the parts of
| yourself as distinct, external parts. Or are communicating
| with a spirit. Faded memories can come back, or you can have
| trouble remembering anything. Fearlessness or fear, heart
| rate increase or decrease, peace or terror.
|
| Decreased motor control is the only thing I can think of
| close to universal, but it isn't. There are reports of people
| having temporary increases in motor function, often in an
| area that is deficient due to physical trauma.
|
| Anyone who answers your question with a few simple
| declarations is like answering "what's it like experiencing a
| vacation?" with "You take a break from your job, go somewhere
| sunny with your family, have a nice time doing fun and
| relaxing things, then feel refreshed when you go back to
| work". It's not even an oversimplification. It's a sample
| presented as a summary. Suitable for a telling a 3-year-old
| what "vacation" means, but certainly not _right_.
|
| This page is great if you'd like more examples, and examples
| are the best you're going to get:
| https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Subjective_effect_index
| bckr wrote:
| Great summary.
|
| I've definitely had experienced polar opposites that both
| involved visual hallucinations or delusions / shifts in
| belief.
|
| For example, I've experienced the belief that my life is a
| beautiful story where everything is going to be revealed to
| be part of some sort of divine plan, with people in my life
| turning out to have some kind of angelic knowledge and
| agency in this plan.
|
| I've also experienced the belief that existence is a
| horrendous joke, and that everything from physical reality
| to my identity is actually some kind of swirling prison-
| prism that is eternally flowing into horrible nothingness.
|
| Well, those are both true in certain ways and false in
| other ways. But boy were they experiences.
| loves_mangoes wrote:
| Many people have tried to describe it and report their
| experiences.
|
| See https://www.erowid.org/ for a large collection
| fluoridation wrote:
| While these are worth a read, IMO if language was
| sufficient to properly communicate the experience it would
| not be worth having.
| csydas wrote:
| There are many types of high, so it's difficult to explain.
| It's extremely personal in a way that you want to share with
| everyone as it likely is one of the best times of your life
| sitting there and feeling the ecstasy and glory of everything
| around you, but I'm not confident there's a language that can
| express the feelings of joy and pleasure in a way other than
| to spark curiosity in a listener. I can certainly try though
| to describe some more positive experiences.
|
| All wayward thoughts, the problems that bog you down, the sad
| thoughts and feelings that creep in or the little worries
| about what you need to do today, tomorrow, next week, they
| don't appear as tasks or problems, if they appear at all. If
| they do, there is an unbridled energy towards how well you're
| going to handle them, and then they're out of your mind. As
| you approach the peak of your state, there is a rush to your
| head like a warmth, a little unnerving at first, but it will
| just let loose over you and you'll feel your body let go of
| stresses and tension you never realized you had.
|
| Uncontrollably, you'll start to smile and want to share what
| you're feeling with anyone around, finding the joy of life in
| absolutely everything. Everything will seem more real, with
| small details that mesmerize you and astound you and you
| focus on with incredible attention and admiration. Imagine
| the scenes you've probably seen in movies or TV shows where
| someone is stunned by the beauty of a piece of art or by
| music, and then try to imagine how powerful the emotions
| would have to be to stop you in your tracks and just gaze
| upon something that registers to you as pure beauty. I once
| stared at puffy white clouds against a huge blue sky, and
| they had a silver shimmer outlining them, each cloud seeming
| "happy" to just be a cloud floating in the sky, sharing their
| happiness with the world below them. As I took in their
| happiness, I felt I "gave it back" and they loved and
| appreciated our connection so much, they shimmered even
| greater. The vastness of how far the clouds stretched and
| reached felt immense as logically I could know they stretched
| for kilometers, but at the same time it felt as if we were in
| the same room sharing our positiveness with one another. (To
| this day I cannot look at clouds without smiling, even when
| completely sober)
|
| Tastes and feelings are taken to something else, as even
| sipping on a simple glass of juice felt like drinking from
| the divine, whatever that means, and every molecule of the
| juice was friendly and soothing to every part of me it
| touched, and gladly gave me its energy to help me feel
| stronger and better, and I thanked every drop as it
| rejuvenated me because I felt so close to each and every
| moment and was almost brought to tears as I thought of how
| much work had to happen for this fruit to become a juice, the
| care and love to grow the plants and to bring them to
| fruition and now the juice shared the same love and care it
| had with me as it gave me energy and refreshed me.
|
| If you're with people, you want nothing but the best for them
| and to tell them how much they matter and how wonderful they
| are. You never lie, but you also find the positive in
| everything and even if sad subjects do come up, you cannot
| help but approach it from a strategy of understanding, and
| conflicts are anything but that, you just want to show that
| no matter what they are loved and appreciated and that they
| matter. Even telling of such subjects isn't an offense, it's
| a brave and human act of someone who wants to grow, and you
| want to help them grow, so you even thank them for the
| offenses and want to help them take the next steps they want
| to become the best "them" they can be.
|
| During this time, your entire body relaxes in ways maybe
| you've felt before. If you've ever had a partner and held
| them at night and realized you didn't know when your body
| ended and theirs began, it's a similar experience, but when
| you're on a high, it's an intensity of comfort and happiness
| that really cannot be described. For hours, you barely feel
| the weight of your own body while having full control over
| it.
|
| For other highs, everything just seems more "intense", both
| the good and sometimes the bad (hence, bad trips). You will
| think and understand yourself in ways you consciously avoid,
| and it can go either way depending on the conditions you
| prepare for. Directing your attention to the simple things
| like calming music, some gentle twinkling lights, it brings
| you to the same joy where you just can't compare it to any
| sober experience as everything is enhanced. There is a beauty
| and "feel" that inhabits the world as you see it and all
| things have a significance you cannot ignore.
|
| I doubt this really conveys it, but I tried :)
| TrainedMonkey wrote:
| Modern journalism is much more about selling the story rather
| than listing the facts and citing evidence. He did state that
| he experienced Altered State of Consciousness and that at least
| some students in 19 strong study did too. The result is
| unsurprising to me because that is a known property of
| meditation. The app itself combined traditional audio
| meditation techniques with a visual component, so the real
| question is what visual component adds to the experience. Given
| that audio stimuli works to help induce meditation, it is
| highly likely that there is a way to tie in a visual component
| in a synergistic way.
|
| As someone who dabbles in meditation I would like to see a
| study with a lot more people split into 3 groups: control group
| who are put in same environment without anything, group with
| audio component only, and a group with both audio and video
| component.
|
| P.S. in additional to audio stimuli there are many other
| techniques that can induce ASC: concentrating really hard (this
| one is for flow most of us are familiar with), smells, walking,
| breathing patterns (including breathing super rapidly and over
| oxygenating), dancing, yoga/exercise routine, etc.
| nicoty wrote:
| The app doesn't work on my Android device (it's stuck on the
| "Welcome to Lumenate" screen after signing in). I'm not sure
| exactly how this app is supposed to function, but assuming it's
| just similar to something like a stroboscope, it's a bit
| ridiculous that I have to sign up for an account to use it, when
| free and open-source alternatives like
| https://f-droid.org/packages/co.garmax.materialflashlight/
| already exist.
| colordrops wrote:
| Same, also crashed during signup.
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| Didn't do anything for me... Saw the light flashing with
| different frequencies through my eyelids and that's it. Maybe
| some vague geometric artifacts like zebra stripes and such,
| depending on the flashing frequency, but didn't feel anything.
|
| If this is what shrooms supposed to do, then it's very much
| overblown.
| throwaway290 wrote:
| Another subscription-based app. I'd get it if I could buy it,
| even if I needed to pay more.
| eafkuor wrote:
| Yes! I'm so sick of this trend. Why does everything need to be
| subscription based nowadays?
| rusk wrote:
| Because it reflects the costs involved in keeping an app up
| to date on an ongoing basis
| hansword wrote:
| Right, right, because these subscription apps never close
| down and leave all their customers with nothing...
| tsol wrote:
| This implies that I want to pay for an app to stay up to
| date. I do not. Obviously this would be more expensive,
| which is why I would only do that when I'm confident that
| I'll continue to use it. Unfortunately there usually isn't
| any option
| nwh5jg56df wrote:
| I just tried it briefly, it was fairly interesting. I will
| definitely keep it installed for a couple more experiments, since
| I've tried some meditation apps but they never stuck with me
|
| https://lumenategrowth.com/the-science/
|
| How do I find the actual science? i.e. Where are the papers?
| labrador wrote:
| I haven't tried the app but I know from experience that ymmv. For
| example, ASMR videos on YouTube do nothing for me, but some
| people say they experience frisson. I am susceptible to
| trypophobia and avoid any pictures with patterns of holes like
| that.
| b3morales wrote:
| I'm surprised there was no mention of binaural beats, which are
| used in a similar way. I'd expect them to be complementary to the
| visual stimulus that this app provides. Though only
| experimentation would tell for sure.
| Yenrabbit wrote:
| Tried it out (sceptically). Quite a fun experience -
| hallucinations in the 'visual artefacts' sense. I doubt it's
| comparable to a drug trip (maybe those with experience can
| comment) but it is a somewhat pleasing way to zone out and be
| mindful.
| semicolon_storm wrote:
| The problem with reproducing a hallucinogenic trip is there's a
| whole mental/headspace side of it that they can't hope to
| reproduce. The visual aspect isn't even half of it. It's like
| an app saying it can make you drunk by giving you blurry cross-
| eyed vision.
|
| Are you seeing the same thing a drunk person might see? Sure.
| Is it comparable to being drunk? No.
| dinkleberg wrote:
| I did the same, and likewise was pleasantly surprised. I've
| never experienced something quite like it.
|
| Signed up for a month, will see if it helps me stick to a
| meditation practice better than usual (I'm very off and on with
| it).
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| If you can find it, consider the movie "Looker" with Susan Dey in
| it. The guy who wrote it had been looking at influencing brain
| state with flickering lights.
| josephpmay wrote:
| This sounds to me more like hypnotism, where you're using
| external stimuli to induce a specific brain wave state, rather
| than hallucinogenic tripping, where you're inhibiting some of
| your brain's filtering mechanisms to see phenomena and form
| connections that would normally be filtered out.
|
| Honestly, this sounds more useful, at least in app form. Not a
| great article, but I'll definitely be trying it out myself.
| pessimizer wrote:
| > inhibiting some of your brain's filtering mechanisms to see
| phenomena and form connections that would normally be filtered
| out.
|
| I think it's more like inhibiting some of the functioning of
| your brain by clogging a type of receptor, so your sensations
| are severely distorted and you have to work around the damage
| by processing input using other pathways.
| olyjohn wrote:
| I'm not sure if this is related, but one time while tripping
| balls, we got a kaleidescope and put up to a CRT that was
| displaying only static. Looking through it was the craziest
| feeling that I had ever gotten while tripping. We even filmed it
| with our phones and watched it again and it did the same thing.
| It was like we all got sucked into the visual. You could almost
| feel it pulling you in. But it created other crazy visual
| feelings too. You could see the individual RGB pixels in the CRT
| all lighting up randomly. Highly recommend if you're gonna trip
| balls. Haven't tried it sober though to know if it could have the
| same effects.
| FredPret wrote:
| Getting some Snowcrash vibes from this
| adv0r wrote:
| I think that for a non native english speaker, I'll head to
| Duckduck go to search for "Tripping balls" as a verb
| lgas wrote:
| "having a quite powerful psychedelic experience"
| yesenadam wrote:
| This native english speaker thanks you. Never heard "trip
| balls".
| hansword wrote:
| https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/balls#Adverb
| zalebz wrote:
| probably should just head to UrbanDictionary for looking up
| slang
| cossatot wrote:
| Do you still have the video?
| smoldesu wrote:
| Something tells me that directing a cathode ray with a series
| of mirrors directly into your retina isn't a phenomenal idea,
| all things considered.
| olyjohn wrote:
| We were just looking at the screen through the kaleidoscope
| with the scope pressed up against the glass. It wasn't taken
| apart or anything. If that's dangerous than I'm doomed from
| all those years sitting too close to the TV, as my parents
| told me!
| flycaliguy wrote:
| Can you do a Show HN with some more technical details?
| olyjohn wrote:
| Probably not worth a full Show HN. Just get an old TV turn it
| on so a dead channel so you just get "snow" on the screen.
| Get a cheapie Kaleidoscope and put it near or up against the
| glass. Look through it at the CRT and enjoy the show. Helps a
| lot if the room is dark too.
| divs1210 wrote:
| could you share your videos?
| thanatos519 wrote:
| We hooked up my fisheye lens to the projector and pointed it
| back at the projection from inside a blown glass plasma lamp.
| Good times.
| tomduncalf wrote:
| Those of you in London or Belfast (and next up Edinburgh) can try
| out a large scale immersive version of what I assume this is
| (strobe lights causing you to see crazy colours and patterns)
| with a soundtrack by (electronic music producer) Jon Hopkins:
| https://dreamachine.world/
|
| I thought it was fun, definitely worth a visit and quite an
| impressive effect. I think the London tickets are all gone but
| the site says there are usually walk-ups due to people not
| turning up.
| squiggy22 wrote:
| Thanks for posting this. In Belfast here totally going.
| tomduncalf wrote:
| Oh awesome, I hope you enjoy it! I vaguely know some of the
| people behind it and I know they put a huge amount of work
| into making it a great experience.
| csdvrx wrote:
| Uh, careful there, I tried something like that at home and
| found myself lying on ground a few hours later with no idea
| what had happened inbetween (my best guess is a seizure!)
| sacrosanct wrote:
| I've tried it and can confirm it works, at least for me. I even
| tried it listening to binaural beats
| (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/binaural-beats) to
| enhance the experience.
|
| It's certainly useful, and I like the way if it feels too
| intense, you just move the strobe away from your eyes. Something
| you can't do in the thralls of a shroom trip. With actual drugs
| you're stuck in that state and have to wait it out!
| tipsytoad wrote:
| I've had my fair share of psychedelics so I was pretty skeptical
| going into this, but it actually worked pretty well although I
| would call it a more like a trance than a trip.
|
| It can't alter mental state anywhere nearly the same way as acid
| though - really the most significant part not just flashy light
| patterns. Still very cool can't wait to try next trip :)
| fallingfrog wrote:
| Wanted to try it, but it asks for you to sign in via google or
| Facebook etc, and I can't think of any non-pathological reason it
| would need you to do that.
| the_third_wave wrote:
| Same here on the subject of having to sign up/log in - although
| it does offer the option to log in using an email address. I do
| not want an application with the specific intention of changing
| my state of mind to be connected and transferring personally
| identifiable information to some remote mothership in any way
| so thanks but no thanks - no _neurocannula_ for me.
| gnuj3 wrote:
| You must have had closed eyes when you tried to sign in as you
| can register using just an email.
| tomduncalf wrote:
| Or Sign In with Apple on iOS devices which also hides your
| email from them
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