[HN Gopher] Number of pubs in England and Wales falls to record low
___________________________________________________________________
Number of pubs in England and Wales falls to record low
Author : samizdis
Score : 75 points
Date : 2022-07-04 07:47 UTC (15 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| WhyDoIThink wrote:
| More people are at their homes playing video games, using
| streaming platforms, and going online to shop for alcohol or
| food. Less people are wanting to leave their homes, especially
| during gas inflation and other things.
| mshook wrote:
| That's a good point.
|
| Not only people tend to drink less nowadays but also when
| people mention these kinds of development (like movie theater
| decline and so on), they forget to mention all of these are
| just different kinds of entertainment.
|
| And there has never been so many ways to entertain oneself so
| the competition is stiff.
| cpursley wrote:
| Gas inflation? Aren't most pubs in the UK walkable (vs say, US
| bars)?
| iasay wrote:
| Not necessarily. In cities people tend to be disparately
| located so usually ends up via public transport. In small
| towns the local pub can be a 30 minute walk away or a 30
| minute taxi away depending on how many of them have closed
| down and the spread of the car-focused structure of some
| towns.
|
| The petrol/gas inflation, plus the incursion of Uber, really
| screwed the prices of the taxis up as well.
| Nux wrote:
| Indeed many are and in the age of working from home I expect
| many neighbourhood pubs to do well.
|
| We're certainly going more often than before.
| cpursley wrote:
| It's also a great way to get to know your neighbors and
| build community.
| [deleted]
| chmod775 wrote:
| A location only reachable by car would be a suboptimal choice
| for any establishment mainly selling alcoholic beverages.
| standardUser wrote:
| You just described America.
| revscat wrote:
| Suboptimal?
| morninglight wrote:
| I've been going to pubs in Wales and England since 1977. I've
| noticed the customers seem to be older during the last 10 years.
| I suspect it is related to much social interaction moving to the
| internet.
|
| In any case, I wonder how this change has affected the sale of
| beer & ale.
| [deleted]
| richardwhiuk wrote:
| Isn't that just you are getting older and thus more likely to
| go to pubs where people are older?
| morninglight wrote:
| Brilliant, but I already thought about that and doubt that it
| is the case.
|
| Furthermore, I refuse to admit that I am getting older.
|
| Cheers
| krona wrote:
| I live in a semi-rural area and all the local pubs that serve
| food are overflowing on a weekend, and usually busy on a
| weeknight.
|
| However, they all have staffing problems, and some have to close
| part of the week because staff presumably find better work
| elsewhere.
|
| Couple that with sometimes extortionate business rates and many
| average pubs in remote areas are simply not viable.
| genocidicbunny wrote:
| Sounds like they're not paying their staff enough. If they're
| not having trouble with staffing on busy nights, but are on
| quiet ones thats a pretty sure sign that they need to raise
| their pay. On busy nights staff might be okay with the lower
| pay thanks to tips, but otherwise its likely more profitable
| for them to go work somewhere else that pays better.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > On busy nights staff might be okay with the lower pay
| thanks to tips
|
| You have absolutely no idea about this topic you're
| commenting on, do you?
| genocidicbunny wrote:
| It might not be applicable to the UK, as someone else
| pointed out, but this is absolutely the case in the US. On
| a good night, a server might make several times more than
| their hourly wages in tips alone. I've known plenty of
| people that worked as wait staff at a restaurant that liked
| the tipping system because thanks to tipping their wages
| were several times higher than minimum wage. Most of them
| would have rather had a slow night once in a while rather
| than give up the tipping because of how much they made
| thanks to tipping.
| Dan_Sylveste wrote:
| >tips
|
| Barstaff don't get tips in the UK
|
| It's more likely that on quiet nights/days it's simply not
| cost effective to open. During a weekday a small pub might
| literally have one or two customers. They're traditionally
| owner-operated for a reason, and the reason is because the
| margins don't allow for staff.
| genocidicbunny wrote:
| Fair point. I'm looking at this from an American point of
| view, and I forgot that wait staff in the UK get paid
| actual wages unlike in the US.
| origin_path wrote:
| mywacaday wrote:
| The reasons are multiple but here are the ones I've noticed are.
| Compared to my father's generation most women now work and men
| and more involved with the family, a hangover Saturday/Sunday
| morning doesn't work. Cost, mortgage/childcare require two
| salaries, hard to justify a large cost of pub sources alcohol.
| The cost of property, saving for a deposit creates a habit of no
| longer going to the pub. We no longer need to go to a social
| place toget most of our local news or gossip, Facebook/WhatsApp
| have filled the gap. Every generation seems to be more health
| focused than the previous.
| cletus wrote:
| People who've never spent significant time in the UK may not
| appreciate the significance that pbus have played in the UK
| culture and social structure. Pubs have for many eyars been a
| social nexus. You wouldn't even go to drink necessarily but just
| go by default because that's what everyone else was doing.
|
| These are quite typically "locals" rather than going somewhere to
| go to a pub in particular.
|
| So this is really a long term trend in the changing social
| structure of the UK. Pubs are becoming less important socially,
| probably conciding with the rise of Internet culture and online
| connectedness. But also real estate prices come into play. Pubs
| sit on some valuable land, particularly in London. Costs go up to
| the point where you might be paying 8 pounds for a pint. That
| gets really expensive.
|
| I haven't seen anything close to this in the US. Take something
| like the bar in How I Met Your Mother. Obviously this is all
| fictional and these characters spen da lot of time there but it's
| still portrayed as extremely intentional, meaning plans are made
| to meet there. UK pub culture doesn't tend to be that intentional
| about meeting particular people but rather hanging out where
| others may or may not show up.
| zimpenfish wrote:
| > probably conciding with the rise of Internet culture and
| online connectedness
|
| Possibly also related to the greater ease of accessing, e.g.,
| sports on TV compared with 10-15 years ago - now you don't need
| a satellite dish etc., you can just stream Sky Sports over the
| internet which cuts out the need to find a pub showing whatever
| match you wanted (assuming you're not doing it as a social
| activity.)
| bencollier49 wrote:
| Pubs were closing long before the internet appeared, albeit in
| smaller numbers.
|
| The main driver, in my opinion, is specialisation. We've got a
| much more professional workforce these days, with more
| specialist skills, who for this reason often have to travel for
| some distance to get to their places of work. That means far
| less time to go to the pub. Combined with modern media, it's
| just easier to sit indoors. People have posted other points
| elsewhere on this thread - they're all contributing (plus drink
| driving laws and smoking bans).
|
| I mean, a lot of people used to stop working at lunchtime and
| spend the afternoon in the pub.
|
| Now, if home working holds up, and then inflation abates a bit,
| perhaps pubs might regain an advantage, but I fear we're now in
| a new "steady state", and it'd take more to change things back.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| You should try visiting New Orleans.
| OJFord wrote:
| > UK pub culture doesn't tend to be that intentional about
| meeting particular people but rather hanging out where others
| may or may not show up.
|
| Interesting, other than 'the locals' propping up the bar,
| that's not my experience at all.
|
| I think going to each other's homes (on a smaller scale and in
| a less organised way than 'a party') is more common now. For
| whatever reason, I wouldn't like to say, could be fashion,
| could be the other side of 'the pub is too expensive', or
| something else.
| Atheros wrote:
| I want to raise another contributor: volume. At most bars in
| large cities, if I'm in a group of six people, I can not hear
| someone talking who isn't sitting directly next to me.
|
| The parent commenter said "Take something like the bar in
| [the television show] How I Met Your Mother. Obviously this
| is all fictional and these characters spend a lot of time
| there". The only reason they can meet there and hear each
| other is because the bar is silent and they're actually on a
| sound stage. Watch _any_ show where any characters interact
| at a bar: they talk comfortably in a way that would not work
| in real life.
|
| Bars and restaurants have simply gotten measurably louder to
| the point where people are choosing to meet at home instead.
| When English Pubs and U.S. speakeasies became popular,
| amplified music was not a thing. Even the name "speakeasy"
| comes from the fact that people could and did speak quietly
| in the bars!
|
| > But consider a 1993 study of about a dozen dining
| establishments, which found that sound levels peaked at 68
| decibels (a little louder than normal chitchat). Compare that
| with a much larger 2018 survey of New York City restaurants,
| in which one-quarter hit at least 81 decibels (more like a
| garbage disposal), the average level was 77, and just 10
| percent were 70 decibels or below. The report deemed those
| "quiet."
|
| https://www.popsci.com/story/technology/restaurant-noise-
| lev...
|
| Scientific papers abound
|
| https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation.aspx?paperid=.
| ..
|
| > There are increasing numbers of reports from patrons
| complaining about the difficulty in conversing with fellow
| diners due to loud venues. In Zagat's 2016 Annual Survey,
| when surveyors were asked what irritated them the most about
| dining out, noise was the second highest complaint (25%)
| behind poor service (28%). But in major urban cities of San
| Francisco, Boston, Portland and New York City, noise was the
| number one complaint [34]
| viraptor wrote:
| > Even the name "speakeasy" comes from the fact that people
| could and did speak quietly in the bars!
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speakeasy
|
| The more common explanation is that it's a place where you
| have to speak easy to not attract attention.
|
| It makes sense too, since without amplified music being
| popular why would the speakeasy be specifically quiet
| rather than just "like everywhere else".
| OJFord wrote:
| Very good point.
|
| It's worse than not fixing it, the trend is to make it
| worse, by removing soft furnishings etc.
|
| Saw an article recently on loud restaurants (the loudest in
| the world are in London, followed by SF iirc) - the top few
| in London were measured as so loud that per the law (I
| assume it's not known/adhered to) they have to provide
| staff with hearing protection from the injurious volume!
| dpeck wrote:
| This is a huge thing to me and many others who I've spoken
| with. My spouse seems to be able to handle it just fine,
| but to me it's just a wall of sound all around me and it
| has led to frustration that they cannot hear me and I
| cannot hear them.
|
| It's become true at even many very "nice" restaurants as
| the open kitchen, open spaces, and hard surfaces everywhere
| aesthetic has taken over nearly everything.
| maerek wrote:
| Strong seconding here. I have a low voice that doesn't
| travel well in noisy environments. It's pretty tiring
| having to shout an entire night out just to converse
| across the table.
| xyzzy123 wrote:
| IMHO an under-appreciated side effect of rising property values
| is the destruction of third places
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place), a role that pubs
| often filled in the UK. As land values rise the pressure to
| make a return on any given space goes up. Leads to fewer places
| to "hang out" without strong pressure to spend money.
| OscarCunningham wrote:
| Damn. Working from home I don't even have a second place.
| codeulike wrote:
| _... pbus ... eyars ..._
|
| - typed while in the pbu, clearly
| rrodgers wrote:
| I'd be curious if the loss of social cohesion/connection offsets
| the reduction of alcohol (if that really occurs) - does dementia
| rise in small villages that lose pubs - or does it fall?
| chippy wrote:
| Curious too about trade off of increased health but wrt
| isolation: in small villages / rural areas, the community is
| more tight-knit generally - you get more social isolation in
| urban areas, particularly for older folks.
|
| There was a recent paper done on social isolation in the UK -
| but heres one for the usa:
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30609155/
| pcrh wrote:
| It would be interesting to compare the number of pubs with the
| total number of establishments that cater to eating and drinking,
| e.g. including cafes, restaurants, night clubs, etc.
| pm90 wrote:
| Bars and Pubs are a very "boomer" sorta place imo. Personally I
| do like going to them sometimes, but the people there are
| generally older. The younger groups are either there with work
| buddies or for some event, or are tourists. Notable exception are
| clubs, which are still dominated by the young.
|
| The ones that do well today IMO are the ones that experiment with
| their food offerings. Instead of the standard fare (greasy fries,
| burgers etc) they offer legitimately good food and
| vegetarian/vegan options and salads/tacos.
|
| I think its fine. Beers/Ales are worse health wise than the more
| refined liquors. These establishments just need to change to
| reflect the tastes of their clientele.
| genocidicbunny wrote:
| I wonder how much on an effect prices have in this.
|
| It's gotten more and more expensive to go out drinking, while the
| prices for alcohol haven't risen commensurately in my area. When
| you're paying almost the cost of a bottle of cheap rum for a
| single drink, suddenly drinking at home starts to make a lot more
| sense. Why spend $20 on a drink when you can for the same money
| buy a bottle of cheap alcohol, some mixers and snacks and have
| yourself and your friends a merry night?
|
| On a side note, this made me wonder why prices on alcohol haven't
| gone up all that much, despite the recent inflation. Most of the
| prices for alcohol at my nearby grocery store are the same as
| they were last year and the year before.
| nemo44x wrote:
| It's amazing to hear these stats and then drive around England
| and be astonished how many pubs there are. On high streets, town
| centers, neighborhoods, etc. Just think how many there were!
|
| I love pub culture and always look forward to a bitter when
| traveling to the UK.
| phphphphp wrote:
| The record low is a part of a long term trend, the numbers have
| been falling year over year for the last few decades -- this
| headline is somewhat misleading. The pandemic and changing
| economic environment may hasten their demise, but it has been
| long coming.
|
| https://www.statista.com/statistics/310723/total-number-of-p...
| mike_hock wrote:
| Sounds like an extremely alarming trend! Why is no-one doing
| anything? Where are they gonna go to get hammered?
| InCityDreams wrote:
| Cannaboids.
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| One factor that's important not to overlook is that younger
| people, especially in developed nations, are drinking much less
| in recent years, even after the COVID-19 lockdown. [1] It's just
| not really fashionable anymore. Everyone I know under the age of
| 25 or so, and (A smaller amount of) older people I know as well
| who have grown out of thinking being drunk is fun, are looking at
| it more as a quick way to get fat and sad.
|
| [1] https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2020/sep/analysis-our-survey-
| show...
| bloodyplonker22 wrote:
| > younger people, especially in developed nations, are drinking
| much less in recent years, even after the COVID-19 lockdown.
| [1] It's just not really fashionable anymore.
|
| and then you link to a 2020 article that analyzes drinking
| DURING lockdown. Well, of course it's going to be lower during
| lockdown in the initial phase of covid. What you've said is
| bloody misleading.
|
| > Everyone I know under the age of 25 or so, and (A smaller
| amount of) older people I know as well who have grown out of
| thinking being drunk is fun, are looking at it more as a quick
| way to get fat and sad.
|
| It's always binary to you people. Drinking moderately can be
| social and fun, but to you, it's only to get drunk and hammered
| and fat and sad.
| FredPret wrote:
| To "you people" doesn't set a constructive tone.
| bloodyplonker22 wrote:
| cto_of_antifa wrote:
| mnd999 wrote:
| Instagram ruined everything.
| pydry wrote:
| It was always a pricey hobby and wages have stagnated. I think
| that was the main driver - the rest is post hoc
| rationalization.
|
| Ditto with smoking.
| madeofpalk wrote:
| Personally, the whole covid situ, and working from home just
| taught me to go over to friends places and drink at home rather
| than some shitty pub with expensive drinks that I don't like.
| AnonymousPlanet wrote:
| This sounds more like people going to pubs to get hammered
| instead of going there to be social. The beer gardens around
| here are full of people enjoying a cold one. No one goes there
| to get drunk. Same with the pubs (mostly). Tons of young people
| there. Maybe we just have a different pub culture on the
| continent?
| neaden wrote:
| How much of a business profit comes from people getting drunk
| though? One serious drinker might spend as much a small group
| of people just enjoying a beer or two.
| AdvancedCarrot wrote:
| I live in the UK and honestly from what I've seen at least
| nice beer gardens are doing great, and even many of the
| regular pubs aren't necessarily doing badly.
|
| I think people do like going out for a drink (and certainly
| not just to get drunk), rather I think the bigger problem is
| that its become far too expensive for many.
| mmarq wrote:
| Adults in the UK drink to get drunk, like Italian 15 year
| olds. It is different for young adults, who are adopting a
| more "continental" approach to alcohol.
| syndacks wrote:
| "I don't drink, thanks. I just do hard drugs."
| baq wrote:
| Personally, the primary reason is hangovers take waaaaay too
| much time after 30
| rightbyte wrote:
| I thought it was due to me drinking way less ofent and thus
| losing resistance. Are you sure?
| ezekiel11 wrote:
| btw I hear this a lot from North American/English speaking
| parts of the world but less in others. There seems to be more
| tolerance/less judgement towards drinking alcohol, its seen
| as an integral part of socializing, almost to a fault in some
| cultures. I wonder if this is some pre-emptive virtue
| signaling,since if you break it down, hangovers is largely
| the result of dehydration and loss of minerals. It might be
| that as you get older you retain less fluid or something, i
| do not know, just guessin.
|
| having said that, i can go without drinking. you tend to
| increase consumption in bursts, social events. it can cause a
| lot of societal problems (ex. south korea/russia) and
| combined with tobacco (ex. south korea/japan), its right up
| there in terms of toxicity with combining cocaine and alcohol
| (dramatically/needlessly increases toxicity).
|
| One might make the same judgement about cocaine hangovers or
| any substance for that matter.
| bloqs wrote:
| This is common incorrect assumption, it's due to tolerance
| and consistency of drinking habits, including hydration and
| liver health.
| barry-cotter wrote:
| This seems extremely unlikely to be true, based on personal
| experience and that of many other people. Sources?
| [deleted]
| standardUser wrote:
| There's no reason hangovers should be any worse in your 30's
| or 40's. Hangovers are mostly the result of poor drinking
| habits.
| robonerd wrote:
| Ha, and what bad drinking habits would those be? The
| popular answer is "drink water", but I didn't do that when
| I was young and I didn't have hangovers then. These days if
| I drink two beers and even twice as much fresh water, I'll
| be miserable the morning after. Consequently, I don't go to
| bars anymore and I buy a sixpack at the grocery store maybe
| two or three times a year.
| justinhj wrote:
| I would guess that this is just because young people have
| more energy and healing ability, both of which
| deteriorate with age
| 14 wrote:
| This is exactly why I quit drinking and have been sober
| for almost 2 years. I kept finding that one or two beers
| and I would feel like crap or get headaches the next day.
| I know about the drink water trick and it didn't help. So
| finally gave up drinking and don't miss it. Also other
| reasons to quit as other commenters mentioned is the
| price. Going out for a drink costs a lot of money. Just
| food and a non alcoholic drink cost me over $20. A couple
| alcoholic drinks would cost me 1/3 days pay. I would much
| rather not.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Yes, such as drinking to the point of getting drunk.
| the_only_law wrote:
| The effects are great (for many but not all), and bars can be
| nice are if you're drunk, but the cost is just so heavy.
| hyperbovine wrote:
| Ever tried getting drunk in an English pub? It's surprisingly
| difficult.
| bowsamic wrote:
| The problem is not just that the alcohol is expensive in pubs
| (it's actually cheaper than a lot of European countries) but
| that also the alcohol in the shops is very expensive. I think
| that is why alcohol use has become so unpopular. Not only is
| it a less pleasurable drug than others, but it's actually
| becoming more expensive than them, even at home
| tailspin2019 wrote:
| Name your time and place. Perhaps you're doing it wrong :)
| collegeburner wrote:
| Also bars got shitty prices these days. Most people pregame
| before they actually go out so they buy less there bc its too
| fucking expensive to get drunk out. Seems like prices at bars
| go up even faster than prices for alcohol retail.
| hbn wrote:
| I'm far too cheap to order more than a drink or 2 at bars,
| but it tends to mean I keep a bottle of something at home
| which makes it dangerously easy to go too fast/hard
| sergers wrote:
| I have always looked at it as a social activity, than sole
| reason to be getting drunk.
|
| With my friends, if you wanted to get drunk, it w as s never at
| a pub, we were too cheap.
|
| We would just drink at home.
|
| In general, people are less outgoing, not specific to pubs.
|
| Look at restaurant closures in your area, retail stores etc...
| I bet the pub lines up with these
| crmd wrote:
| I'm an American (New York city) and I originally met most of my
| friends at the neighborhood coffee shops and bars. Most people
| don't go there specifically to caffeinate and get drunk, it's
| just the third place (outside work and home) where people go to
| socialize.
| iasay wrote:
| In the UK we have some serious social drinking issues unlike
| America where a couple of beers is perfectly fine. I prefer
| going to a bar in the US than a pub here because it's a decent
| social event.
| ezekiel11 wrote:
| The other day I was listening to Raoul speak on Real Vision, and
| apart from his weird angle that crypto will survive this cycle
| (it wont), he mentions demographic time bomb that is about to hit
| our Western economy.
|
| The basic gist is that baby boomers will drastically curtail
| their spending by 60% because of the retirement pension is
| broken. It is essentially a ponzi scheme that will not be able to
| pay out everybody without huge erosion to currency and its
| literally the last thing a world reserve currency like US is
| going to want (a hegemony is only as good as its status as a
| world reserve currency). so without a sound pension/retirement
| guarantee, the only way to hedge against future grey swan is to
| retain capital as much as possible by curtailing spending. This
| is similar to what happened to in Japan, they would drastically
| cut spending while increasing savings following the '89 asset
| bubble brust, followed by deflation. Now the situation is getting
| out of hand due to supply chain and energy supply issues but
| eventually the belief is that price inflation post-pandemic will
| not last. For example, the watch collectibles market appears to
| be showing signs of stress, as market values of previously
| inflated (on purpose?) watches have begun to come down in price
| as buyers tighten their wallets. The JM gold green dial daytona
| is a good example of the asset bubble. The first market usually
| to lead deflationary events is the luxury goods section, followed
| by mainstream consumer goods that simply cannot find enough
| buyers at the current inflated price.
|
| Taking this a bit further then, there is a huge looming crisis to
| all sectors of the consumer/leisure economy. Pubs I think are on
| the decline as a result of inflation and warning signs of further
| curtailment of spending. This is a very nasty situation to be in
| because in the past we've been able to swing out of crisis by
| simply printing money and keeping the consumption rate constant,
| central banks simply have exhausted their monetary velocity, and
| could easily stand to lose control of the situation leading to
| Japan's near 40 year stagnation.
|
| The common belief about grey/black swans is a zealous/elastic
| band like reaction the remotest idea that it could happen here.
| anti-fragile or not, a multi-decade change in consumption will
| set a country back for decades.
|
| Perhaps it is this weakness that Putin saw, and EU's reliance on
| it's energy/commodities, that he chose to gamble on what he saw
| as a looming demographic crisis on his end (number of young males
| available for conscript has peaked and is on the decline). Unlike
| technologically advanced militaries like EU/US which can absorb
| this demographic decline, Russia's security guarantees besides
| its nuclear deterence is largely on numbers. For this reason I
| believe that Xi is going to emulate Putin to a certain degree in
| the Taiwan strait.
|
| The US is in a better situation, but it also faces a decline in
| its population and must continue to increase immigration, one
| that it is increasingly unwilling to do as populism demand rise
| as cost of living increases.
|
| We are in unprecedented territory now and the content of this
| article reads familiar to what we've seen in previous downturns,
| except that we have a huge monetary excess debt from '08 money
| print frenzy.
|
| I am not convinced the US hegemony will go away any time soon but
| I am wary as to whether we are going through what South America
| did up until 90s, a series of populism that swung the country to
| authoritarianism and ugliness that rose from that.
|
| This is the connections I made after reading this article and
| looking at consumption trends in other sectors.
| odiroot wrote:
| Coming from a country with a huge alcoholism problem, I welcome
| any trend that shows decrease in alcohol consumption.
|
| Now living in England, I'm amazed how people just take their cars
| to a pub and drive back home like it's nothing. And considering
| how busy my local pub is, some do it on a daily basis.
| pm90 wrote:
| Wait really? For some reason I thought the transit was great in
| Cities in England... that would seem like the better option,
| no?
| rocgf wrote:
| Public transport is pretty good in the UK, but not to the
| point of being able to live without a car for a large portion
| of the population. In London, there is the tube and driving
| in the city is quite dreadful, so I guess that is the
| exception, but I would say that the UK is pretty car-centric
| overall.
| orobinson wrote:
| They may not live in a city. Even tiny villages in the UK
| will have a pub and some pubs are literally just on their own
| in the middle of nowhere. I grew up in a small town in
| eastern England and people would drive from the surrounding
| villages to go to the pubs there and then drive home after
| several drinks. Drink driving outside of cities is
| unfortunately very common.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > I'm amazed how people just take their cars to a pub and drive
| back home like it's nothing
|
| In England and Wales people often take their children to pubs.
| So not everyone's drinking alcohol - many are having food or
| just non-alcoholic drinks.
|
| If you think someone going to a restaurant or cafe and driving
| home isn't madness, then neither is someone going to the pub in
| England or Wales.
| prvit wrote:
| I think I'd rather have slightly inebriated drivers than
| people letting their kids drive them home.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| I mean not all adults in pubs are drinking.
| fleddr wrote:
| Another article I read called the pub "England's living room". It
| fits the stories my brother told as he used to work in England
| (we're from the Netherlands). He'd describe that workers would
| immediately continue to the pub after work, after which their
| wife would bring a home-cooked meal directly to the pub. And the
| children might visit for an hour or so too.
|
| Anyway, different times. Some trends I'm spotting in the
| Netherlands that I suspect would also apply to the UK:
|
| Young people drink far less than before. When they do drink, they
| may first home drink cheaply and only then attend a pub (or club)
| extremely late at night. Others rarely attend a pub at all and
| prefer infrequent big events like concerts, where often they pop
| a cheap XTC pill and drink two sodas.
|
| And yet another group are truly "digital natives", my nephew is
| one of them. Their idea of a great Saturday night is to play a
| multiplayer game online. They never go anywhere, they rarely ever
| meet new people.
|
| Still, it's not just young people. Over here middle-aged (and
| older) people also seem to come far less than before. I think
| this has to do with life being so damn fast and busy, it's much
| different compared to a few decades earlier.
|
| You can't really stop it, times change. Still it saddens me to
| see another socially important physical place go the way of the
| dodo.
| onion2k wrote:
| I'm trying my best to keep them going.
| varispeed wrote:
| In the younger generation, people are not so much interested in
| drinking alcohol. Many prefer to relax with cannabis, but it is
| illegal for "recreational" purposes. So going to pub, then going
| somewhere to smoke, then coming back to pub was just tedious and
| risky. Especially that police likes to harass people minding
| their own business and if they are from ethnic minorities. That
| combined with the cost of living crisis, means it's cheaper and
| more comfortable to meet at ones home or somewhere in the park.
| citrin_ru wrote:
| Many pubs in England are operating since XIII - XIV centuries.
| It's a living history. Would be sad to see them gone.
| 202206241203 wrote:
| It's only more visible than people being Airbnb-d out of their
| native towns.
| mdavis6890 wrote:
| We should impose mandatory-minimums for alcohol consumption. I
| think 10 drinks/wk should do it.
| kawsper wrote:
| In pre-pandemic times I worked from home and to get out a bit
| during a day I would have a coffee and work from the local pub.
|
| Depending on the time of day I showed up there would always be
| the regular pensioners starting their first drink of the day
| around 11:00, then around 12:30-13:00 the lunch crowd from the
| nearby offices would show up and sometimes after that there would
| be a birthday event or a funeral wake, then it would quiten down
| again until 17:00-18:00 when families showed up for dinner, and
| later than that the drinking crowd would show up and it would
| become too lively to sit and code.
|
| Pubs in the UK works as family restaurants (with a bar) but they
| are a place of social gathering, and they cater to all sort of
| different types of business.
| s8s8discourse wrote:
| There isn't sufficient margin in drink to float a pub. The margin
| is in food (and to an extent, dispensed soft drinks).
|
| Because priority becomes food over drink, people are willing (and
| able) to drive further for a better pub. Competition increases
| and you don't need a 'local' for every village or part of town
| anymore. Less pubs can serve more people because rather than
| regulars "propping up the bar" 3-5 nights a week for an extended
| session, you get restaurant-esque table turnover.
|
| This is desirable for landlords - they often live above their
| pubs - profit from food service means you can shut earlier, you
| don't have regular fights or trouble from drunk customers and
| general toil is lower.
|
| But some publicans just won't (or can't) adapt. They won't or
| can't invest in kitchen and chef. They can't or won't learn how
| to market and attract new, younger customers. Inflation, energy
| pricing, COVID shutdowns et al have all just accelerated the
| demise of the "pub pub".
|
| The old "pub pub" crowd are now well served by the Wetherspoons,
| who have the advantage of controlling their margins in ways
| Brewery landlords can't compete with (mass purchasing, pre-
| prepared food, all their pubs are "new" buildings that don't have
| the insane maintenance and insurance overheads of a 200+ year old
| pub building etcetc).
|
| We may be at a record low, but I suspect we'll be setting new
| lows for some years to come yet.
|
| src: family of publicans from 193Xs ~> 200X. Tried to buy a pub
| at the 'end' of COVID restrictions.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| > There isn't sufficient margin in drink to float a pub. The
| margin is in food (and to an extent, dispensed soft drinks).
|
| In the US, the exact opposite is true. Alcohol sales are where
| the money is made (and yes, soft drink sales, but there's
| usually far less of that in an actual bar.) Food has nowhere
| near the profit margin. Multiple restaurant owners have told me
| this for years.
|
| Why is it the opposite in the UK?
| smcl wrote:
| The food in many of these pubs is of very low quality and is
| designed to be quickly prepared (reheated) at scale with no
| complex steps involved. After a short time in the UK you can
| quickly tell what sort of food you can expect in a given pub,
| so I think most Brits know what they're getting. Personally,
| I think this (plus the fact that a large amount of the
| population _take pride_ in enjoying shit food) give the UK a
| bad reputation re food.
|
| And you'd actually be surprised how much soft drinks are
| served in pubs. They're _very_ low wastage - so if your
| company budgets that X% will be lost for some reason, you 'll
| very likely undershoot that and have only X/2% wasted.
| Additionally you can adjust the syrup/carbonated water mix so
| that your margins for each serving are higher. The dodgy pub
| I worked at as a student frequently used soft drinks as a way
| to balance stock in case of wastage (or in the case of a
| corrupt assistant manager, theft). Towards the end of a given
| stock-keeping period (monthly?) we'd often be told something
| like "Tennent's is down, ring it up in the tills as 3 small
| diet cokes" - meaning that there is less of a given beer in
| the stock room than expected when accounting for how much we
| ordered and how much we sold, and to correct for this we'd
| use take advantage of the surplus of coke stock (after a
| price adjustment) to try to counteract this. God help you if
| anyone asked for a receipt and accused you of swindling them
| ...
| workingon wrote:
| This is so strange, and the exact opposite of America. In
| America margins on drink are 100-200%+ while margins on food
| are much less when you take into account untipped workers
| fixing it. It must be the tipping difference, since bartenders
| are basically free labor in America.
| bavent wrote:
| Wow, this is complete opposite of America. I have run several
| bars/restaurants and most of our money came from alcohol sales.
| Food was still profitable, but much tighter margins. A lot more
| labor goes into the food side of the business too, and we
| couldn't get away with marking things up 4x like you can with
| wine.
|
| I think as you get into Michelin-starred places, the name of
| the chef and the quality of the food is enough to allow you to
| charge more, and also to cheap out on labor - some of the top
| restaurants in Chicago collude to pay their cooks $10-12/hr,
| for example.
| algorias wrote:
| I'd think those low wages are also partly explained by the
| desirability of working at a top place (good for your CV and
| for acquiring actual skills). Pretty similar to how the game
| industry attracts talent out of proportion to the monetary
| compensation they pay.
| bavent wrote:
| They're 100% explained by that, not just partially. At all
| of the top-rated restaurants in every city I've cooked in,
| all the chefs are buddies. It's very common for there to be
| a tacit agreement to just not pay more than $X, that way
| they can all keep labor costs down.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| I was under the impression that margins on alcohol were huge.
| At least where I am, proprietors trip over themselves to get
| alcohol licenses, and those licenses go for hefty premiums.
| tamade wrote:
| Having invested in this business before, the margin is entirely
| in alcohol. Typical drink costs <50p and sold for >20x. Food
| has nowhere near those margins given the labor and materials
| required.
| jimjambw wrote:
| Not saying I don't believe you but why would a Brit leave out
| the 'u' in labour?
| benbristow wrote:
| > The old "pub pub" crowd are now well served by the
| Wetherspoons, who have the advantage of controlling their
| margins in ways Brewery landlords can't compete with (mass
| purchasing, pre-prepared food, all their pubs are "new"
| buildings that don't have the insane maintenance and insurance
| overheads of a 200+ year old pub building etcetc).
|
| Bit untrue on your last statement. Wetherspoons have a habit of
| occupying traditional/landmark buildings. For all the negative
| they do against the independent pub trade by outpricing with
| their brewery deals they do a cracking job in preservation by
| using & maintaining old buildings that would otherwise go to
| ruin.
|
| Just in Glasgow for example you've got The Counting House
| (George Square) which was an old premises of the Bank Of
| Scotland in the late 19th century and The Crystal Palace also
| built in the 19th century which houses one of the oldest
| lift/elevator installations in the UK.
| hintymad wrote:
| Eh... Good thing? As someone who does not have the genes to
| produce ADH2, I can never appreciate alcohol or the euphoria of
| getting tipsy. Employees in my previous startups in SF openly
| stocked and drank lots of liquor, which made me uneasy too. It
| was also very frustrating that engineers in Dropbox of early days
| used to socialize and design their systems in noisy bars over
| hard liquor.
| [deleted]
| helloworld11 wrote:
| So, because you yourself get no joy from alcohol, it frustrates
| you and makes you "uneasy" to see any situation where others
| do? Consequently, anything that forces them to consume much
| less is a good thing? Why? Why should others' personal pleasure
| bother you in the first place? I comment because this is a
| sadly selfish attitude that's far too common among many people
| about many things.
| [deleted]
| codeulike wrote:
| This is a trend that has been steadily continuing for at least 20
| years
|
| https://www.statista.com/statistics/310723/total-number-of-p...
|
| Imho alcohol is historically way too prominent in UK culture so
| its a relief to learn that people are finally finding something
| else to do with their time
|
| edit: 30 year trend in this paper:
| https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-...
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