[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Why not have reverse life insurance that rew...
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       Ask HN: Why not have reverse life insurance that rewards longevity?
        
       In particular, reverse life insurance would only pay out to your
       loved ones if you live beyond a certain age.  This would encourage
       your loved ones to keep you alive until you reach that age.
        
       Author : amichail
       Score  : 45 points
       Date   : 2022-07-01 15:51 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
       | hirundo wrote:
       | It exists, and is known as "compound interest".
        
         | sethhochberg wrote:
         | And already something exposed to the insurance world via Whole
         | Life policies - which are technically life insurance, but with
         | an investment vehicle baked in. Whole life policies are
         | typically a lot more expensive than term life, but a portion of
         | premiums paid goes into cash value which can be invested in
         | markets, and often tax-free.
         | 
         | If you die early, your beneficiaries get a bigger payout than
         | you paid in. If you live until the end of the whole life term,
         | you've accumulated cash value and investment income on top of
         | it.
         | 
         | The "catch" is really just the expense of the premiums. Whole
         | life is out of reach of many people shopping for life
         | insurance, especially those looking for coverage because their
         | financial lives are already pretty close to the edge with
         | debts, etc.
        
           | staticman2 wrote:
           | The "Catch" with whole life is the expected returns are lower
           | than term life coupled with clean, insurance free investment.
           | 
           | You also have a entire industry of sales people spreading
           | misinformation about how the policies work:
           | 
           | https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/debunking-the-myths-of-
           | who...
        
             | Bostonian wrote:
             | Arguably whole life (WL) policies should be compared with
             | buying a term policy and investing the difference in bonds,
             | since WL policies are relatively safe. Then WL policies are
             | competitive because of the tax benefits. WL policies will
             | lag (term + stocks), but the latter strategy is more risky.
        
       | scrappyjoe wrote:
       | You should research to tontines, as they are somewhat related.
       | You pay a lump sum along with a number (10-1000) of people of a
       | similar age to buy an asset - say, a property - and then you each
       | receive an equal share of the income each year. As people die
       | off, the income is shared across successively less people until
       | at the end it's only one person who receives the income of the
       | entire asset. At the death of the final recipient the asset
       | generally cedes to the administrating company as payment for
       | their administration over the life of the tontine.
        
       | zosima wrote:
       | Robert Louis Stevenson wrote an extremely funny novel about
       | Tontines, which are a variant of what you suggest:
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wrong_Box_(novel)
       | 
       | Just like with life insurance, there is some opportunity for
       | abuse...
        
       | PaulHoule wrote:
       | It's a general problem in retirement that if you live a long time
       | you could outlive your savings. Some answers are
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_annuity
       | 
       | and
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tontine
        
         | rundmc wrote:
         | The OECD Pensions team has recently confirmed that in this
         | current environment, tontines offer better value for consumers
         | than annuities.
        
           | dmurray wrote:
           | Sounds like an arbitrage opportunity - shouldn't they pay out
           | roughly the same?
        
             | tfehring wrote:
             | Yes, there's no reason for the expected total value of your
             | payments to inherently be higher or lower for a tontine vs
             | an annuity, after adjusting for time value of money.
             | 
             | Typically a tontine would have lower payments in early
             | years with much faster acceleration later on compared to an
             | annuity. That means that healthier people would generally
             | do better with a tontine than an annuity, and less healthy
             | people would do better with an annuity. It also means that
             | the nominal amount of payments from a tontine is higher
             | than those from an equivalently priced annuity, but that
             | difference is entirely due to the tontine having more time
             | to earn interest on your money before it pays out.
        
               | rundmc wrote:
               | Tontines have no liabilities so do not need guarantees.
               | Therefore incomes do not suffer from the underwriting
               | fees of insurers.
               | 
               | This means that tontine payments typically start
               | meaningfully higher than annuities at the outset even
               | before the faster acceleration kicks in.
        
               | tfehring wrote:
               | I guess I don't understand what you mean when you say
               | "tontines have no liabilities." Mechanically, the way
               | that a tontine works (or at least the way that they
               | worked historically) is that I give you a fixed amount of
               | money today, and in exchange you promise me a series of
               | payments that are contingent on my life and the lives of
               | the others in the risk pool. That promised series of
               | payments is a liability, as a matter of accounting but
               | also for all other practical purposes. Maybe you have a
               | different structure in mind, but I don't see a way to
               | operate a tontine-like product without a balance sheet.
        
             | s28l wrote:
             | The risk profile is different. Yes, both have a payout that
             | depends on your own mortality, but there are other risk
             | factors to consider.
             | 
             | An annuity is also a credit risk: if the counter-party goes
             | under, then your payments will stop. Since most of the time
             | the counter-party is a well-capitalized insurance company
             | (potentially with an implicit government backstop), this
             | risk is pretty small.
             | 
             | On the other hand, a tontine has a risk profile that
             | depends on the mortality of the other nominees who
             | participate: your payout in a given year depends on the
             | number of nominees still alive. Also, depending on how it's
             | structured, there might be some market risk as well.
             | 
             | From another perspective, for there to be an arbitrage
             | opportunity, you'd need a way to create a synthetic annuity
             | using a tontine (or vice-versa). But the risk profile of
             | the tontine, which depends on the mortality of the other
             | nominees, is hard to come by unless you are an insurance
             | company. You can view a participant in a tontine as owning
             | a certain life annuity as well as having sold the other
             | participants a smaller life annuity. So each time one of
             | them dies, you no longer have to pay that life annuity and
             | can keep more of the income from the annuity you own.
        
             | rundmc wrote:
             | Insurers make a double profit by charging management fees
             | and by mispricing the longevity risk which essentially
             | means that those dying earlier generate excess profits for
             | the insurer.
             | 
             | In a tontine, those dying earlier generate excess income
             | for the retirees. It's explained here:
             | https://tontine.com/explainer
        
               | tfehring wrote:
               | I used to price annuities (but no longer have any
               | affiliation or financial interest in the industry) and
               | this isn't true IME - annuities are typically priced
               | using best-estimate mortality rates. Outside of immediate
               | annuities, which are a pretty small chunk of the
               | business, mortality rates just wouldn't be a useful lever
               | to increase profits, since the predominant decrement is
               | generally lapse/surrender, not death. Annuities are
               | profitable because insurers price to high target IRRs or
               | equivalent metrics, build in enough fees or spread to
               | achieve that IRR, and build in enough management levers
               | (e.g. the ability to increase those fees/spread) that
               | they can compensate for any mispricing after the fact.
        
         | cryptonector wrote:
         | I don't understand why tontines are illegal in the U.S.
        
           | whichfawkes wrote:
           | Too many murders?
        
           | spacemanmatt wrote:
           | Probably judges got tired convicting geezers who committed
           | murder to win the tontine.
        
           | rundmc wrote:
           | Tontines are perfectly legal. See:
           | https://tontine.com/news/tontines-can-a-pension-this-good-
           | be...
        
           | clifdweller wrote:
           | it was mostly because of fraud. if you are a banker seems
           | quite a nice premise to sell your rich friends a tontine with
           | them and a bunch of Bering sea crab fishermen in it.
        
       | jimkleiber wrote:
       | > This would encourage your loved ones to keep you alive until
       | you reach that age.
       | 
       | And encourage the insurance company to want you dead.
       | 
       | I like the thought exploration and fear the incentives.
        
         | diordiderot wrote:
         | Insurance company isn't the beneficiary of excess.
        
           | polishdude20 wrote:
           | It's the other people in the tontine. So don't let that list
           | leak I guess?
        
       | brudgers wrote:
       | That's basically an endowment policy.
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_policy
       | 
       | Any insurance product someone is willing to buy exists.
        
       | hgsgm wrote:
       | Create a will that gives all your money to a bunch of charities,
       | but not enough that they would kill for it.
       | 
       | Then give your loved ones gifts while you are alive.
        
       | xg15 wrote:
       | > _This would encourage your loved ones to keep you alive until
       | you reach that age._
       | 
       | Why would they need external encouragement for that?
        
         | lolsal wrote:
         | Consider a scenario where you _don 't want to be alive_, like
         | dementia, or cancer, etc.
        
           | xg15 wrote:
           | Uh, okay. Then I guess the scheme should motivate my family
           | to keep me alive against my explicit will, even if it makes
           | no medical sense and would only prolong my suffering. And
           | that's supposed to be a good thing?
        
         | groffee wrote:
         | Unfortunately there's been a few cases where families have
         | basically killed off older relatives to get their inheritance
         | early.
         | 
         | So conceptually reverse life insurance is a great idea, but I
         | can't see how it'd work in practice.
        
       | rundmc wrote:
       | Because life insurance companies make profits by:
       | 
       | a) overcharging you for covering the risk of you dying too early
       | (death insurance is marketed as 'life' insurance)
       | 
       | b) overcharging you for covering the risk of you living so long
       | that you run out of money (fixed annuities).
       | 
       | Disclosure: I am the founder of https://tontine.com which will
       | shortly launch a lifetime income solution that will reward you
       | for living longer and we are hiring.
        
         | WFHRenaissance wrote:
         | How long before you start killing customers because they're
         | living too long?
        
           | irq-1 wrote:
           | As opposed to killing customers because their treatments cost
           | too much? (Which happens everyday by denying coverage, unlike
           | the fictional plot device of Tontine as a motive for murder.)
        
             | WFHRenaissance wrote:
             | As if multinational pharmaceutical companies don't kill
             | their problematic customers _eye roll_
        
           | rundmc wrote:
           | Unlike insurance companies, we don't benefit from customers
           | passing away.
           | 
           | If customers are living longer, our algo's slows down the
           | capital payouts which means that we earn fees on more assets
           | for longer.
           | 
           | Therefore it makes commercial sense for us to give customers
           | tips to help them live longer.
           | 
           | For example, I just found this today: https://academic.oup.co
           | m/ageing/article/51/5/afac080/6572254...
        
         | jfengel wrote:
         | I will say I'm impressed that you secured the domain name. That
         | word was precisely what came to mind upon reading this
         | question. A tontine is precisely insurance against living too
         | long.
        
           | rundmc wrote:
           | I still can't believe the price they quoted us for it.
           | Sometimes it makes no sense to haggle.
        
         | jaclaz wrote:
         | Only as a reference on the history of tontines:
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tontine
        
           | papandada wrote:
           | Well put, Oxford!
        
             | rundmc wrote:
             | Context: https://youtu.be/4AqKjjhET2k
        
         | polishdude20 wrote:
         | What sort of guarantee is there that this company will be
         | around to pay this insurance our by the time I'm most likely to
         | die? I'm 29, say I've got another 50 years left. Is there some
         | insurance or assurance you can give in the event of the death
         | of the company? A sort of meta-tontine?
        
           | rundmc wrote:
           | Firstly, ~125 years ago, there was a crash in the insurance
           | industry. The insurers which offered tontines survived, all
           | of the others disappeared.
           | 
           | Secondly, the trust is managed by a board of trustees that
           | have a fiduciary duty to look after the best interests of
           | members rather than the best interest of shareholders.
           | 
           | When the next crash of 2008 scale or worse occurs, would you
           | prefer to be a general creditor of an insurer (which has a
           | debt to equity ratio of ~12:1) or would you prefer to be a
           | beneficiary of trust with no debt which manages assets like
           | the Harvard or Yale endowments whilst being legally obliged
           | to look after your best interest?
        
             | polishdude20 wrote:
             | Hmm that sounds not bad actually!
             | 
             | How does it work say if I die before starting to take a
             | monthly sum? Say I want to retire at 65 but I die at 40. I
             | wouldn't get anything in that case.
             | 
             | So the first hurdle to overcome is to actually reach
             | retirement age? I guess pensions work the same way, we pay
             | into a pension and if I die before retirement, goodbye
             | pension.
             | 
             | How are monthly amounts calculated? Is it, the more I put
             | in the more I can get out monthly when I retire? Do I get
             | paid more monthly as I get older because we're assuming
             | more people in my "pool" have passed away?
             | 
             | If I stop contributing after some time before I retire, do
             | I still get a pension?
        
         | obiefernandez wrote:
         | Regarding hiring: Is your software written in Ruby on Rails?
        
           | rundmc wrote:
           | Haskell
        
             | JoelMcCracken wrote:
             | What is your overall stack like? Haskell dev here, always
             | curious about commercial use.
        
         | dragonwriter wrote:
         | > death insurance is marketed as 'life' insurance
         | 
         | Looking at other insurance, naming after the thing insured
         | (auto insurance, life insurance, motorcycle insurance) is
         | pretty common, as is naming after the class of people who might
         | want it (homeowner's insurance, renter's insurance) and the
         | source/cause/type of loss insured against (flood insurance,
         | malpractice insurance).
         | 
         | I don't think any of those is more fundamentally "correct", and
         | they are all marketing tools.
        
       | treis wrote:
       | Because I want my family to be supported in the event that I die
       | early. I don't really see much value in leaving them a prize for
       | dying old.
        
         | rundmc wrote:
         | But if you live so long that you run out of money then you
         | become a financial liability to your family. That's why
         | longevity insurance makes sense.
        
         | jfengel wrote:
         | They don't need a prize for you dying old. But you yourself
         | would benefit from insurance against outliving your savings.
        
         | toomuchtodo wrote:
         | Indeed. You're buying a put option on yourself to insure
         | against a black swan event.
        
       | mrtweetyhack wrote:
        
       | Bostonian wrote:
       | There exist fixed annuities that pay you $X annually as long as
       | you live, which can be thought of as reverse life insurance.
       | 
       | If you are rich and spend say $200K annually on yourself in
       | retirement and buy an annuity that pays $300K annually, and you
       | tell your heirs that the $100K excess will be given to them
       | annually, that would create an incentive for them to keep you
       | alive. If you are that rich, however, they might want you to die
       | sooner to get access to your other assets.
        
         | rundmc wrote:
         | If you want your kids even more incentivised to take care of
         | you and help you live healthier & longer, you need to turn
         | yourself from a potential financial liability (the kids will
         | have to support you if you run out of money) into an income
         | generating asset by joining a Tontine (see
         | https://tontine.com/explainer)
        
         | SilasX wrote:
         | Since it's reverse life insurance, I had this shower thought
         | that the incentives should be the opposite. Like, for life
         | insurance, you get discounts for factors that make you a low
         | risk of dying. So for annuities, shouldn't you get bonuses for
         | factors that make you a _higher_ risk for dying?
         | 
         | "Yeah, I just want this annuity to ensure my financial future
         | while I ride out my retirement as a skydiver..."
        
           | Bostonian wrote:
           | An "impaired risk annuity" AKA "medically underwritten
           | immediate annuity" offers higher payments for annuitants in
           | provably poor health.
        
       | bckr wrote:
       | I like that you're thinking differently but I don't see what the
       | economic model is here. Then again, I don't understand normal
       | life insurance either!
        
       | tptacek wrote:
       | Isn't this basically how social security, or, for that matter, a
       | defined benefit pension works?
        
       | staticman2 wrote:
       | For one thing your loved ones don't have much influence on how
       | long you live?
       | 
       | For another you could just cut them out of the will if you die
       | young?
       | 
       | I don't know what problem such an insurance could solve.
       | 
       | The best way to insure your kids and loved ones try to keep you
       | alive is to behave in a way that will (hopefully) cause your kids
       | and loved ones to like you.
        
       | akramquraishi wrote:
       | Insurance companies will be hiring contract killers to save their
       | premiums.
        
       | ttul wrote:
       | It is very common to buy life insurance with a return-of-premium
       | option. If you don't die before a certain age, you get back all
       | of the premiums you paid into the plan. There's your incentive
       | for longevity.
        
       | gifjif wrote:
       | Insurance in ANY form is gambling. Plain and simple. It is a bet
       | that takes places. Just framed in a more flowery language
       | compared to a traditional betting statement "If I win you pay me
       | x, if you win I pay X".
       | 
       | Insurance company: " Pay me $xxx per month, if something happens
       | to you, we will pay you X"
       | 
       | You may benefit i.e your insurance claim is more than the
       | premiums you have paid, or you can loose out by paying more
       | insurance over a time period than the claim. Or simply loose all
       | together where you keep paying and you never get the opportunity
       | to claim.
       | 
       | The insurance company operates like a casino, probability is
       | calculated so it always earns more than it looses.
        
         | francisofascii wrote:
         | Actually, insurance if done properly is the opposite of
         | gambling for the person buying the insurance. You are paying a
         | small fee to not have to gamble.
        
         | jfengel wrote:
         | Insurance is hedging risk. The goal is not to make a profit;
         | the goal is to cut your losses.
         | 
         | You don't "win" by dying young and getting an insurance payout.
         | You just lose less than you would without the insurance.
         | 
         | If it's a bet, it's a bet you hope to lose. But in a large pool
         | of people, the odds are that one of you will "win". Your
         | descendants recoup the winnings, and the rest of you breathe a
         | sigh of relief that it wasn't you.
         | 
         | It's not unreasonable for a company to facilitate that, with a
         | small but reasonable profit. Obviously there is a lot of
         | opportunity for malfeasance and malpractice, simply because
         | there's so much money involved, but the concept itself isn't
         | inherently bad.
         | 
         | Neither is a casino, necessarily, but a casino is offering only
         | entertainment. There is no risk to you if you don't play. But
         | in the case of life insurance (and other forms of insurance),
         | you take that risk every day. If you're sufficiently well-off
         | to self-insure, you shouldn't participate, because its offers
         | no benefit. But it offers a genuine tangible benefit to those
         | who cannot afford the risk and seek a hedge against it.
        
         | avgcorrection wrote:
         | Insurance is like reverse gambling. The only similarity is that
         | the house always wins in the long run.
         | 
         | Unless your definition of gambling is so loose that not buying
         | a lottery ticket is gambling.
        
       | aynyc wrote:
       | _This would encourage your loved ones to keep you alive until you
       | reach that age._
       | 
       | Besides insurance companies for profit motive aside, this might
       | create a lot of unnecessary medical procedures to simply prolong
       | someone's life, even if the quality is total shit.
        
         | DennisP wrote:
         | Could fix that by making assisted suicide an option for the
         | patient. Patient has to live, and want to live.
        
           | aynyc wrote:
           | You have to assume the patient has mental capacity to make
           | that decision. I saw first hand family member without DNR
           | went through. I don't want that for anyone.
        
             | DennisP wrote:
             | Good point.
        
           | MrTortoise wrote:
           | surley brain in a jar is the more logical outcome?
        
         | rhn_mk1 wrote:
         | There's a dual to that in life insurance, where it incentivizes
         | procedures (or inaction) to shorten life.
        
           | nebula8804 wrote:
           | The Social Security scam in the US. Encourage people to eat
           | poorly by making healthy food less subsidized compared corn
           | filled garbage and watch as your workers spend a whole
           | careers working while eating poorly to generate value only to
           | die off at retirement as they start to collect on their hard
           | earned effort.
        
       | nonameiguess wrote:
       | It's worth considering the existing form of "reverse life
       | insurance" that already exists, which is simply selling life
       | insurance policies. The counterparty in a two-party bet is always
       | the reverse bet.
       | 
       | Think of whether it's worth it from the perspective of the seller
       | to insure only one person? Short answer is no, because that's
       | extremely risky. When you sell insurance policies to thousands or
       | millions of people instead, you can use actuarial statistics and
       | finance the policies with bonds in such a way as to ensure you
       | will make money, with the scale limited only to how many policies
       | you can sell, independent of whether any specific person lives or
       | dies.
       | 
       | So why is life insurance worth it from the purchaser side? Many
       | people will argue it isn't. You're virtually guaranteed to lose
       | money. But the argument in favor is that an early death can be
       | disastrous to others who depend on you and can't support
       | themselves otherwise. It can be worth losing money to gain peace
       | of mind. But really, that is the main argument. It's not a good
       | investment. It's protection from disaster.
       | 
       | The only real analog on the other side is the possibility that a
       | person lives much longer than expected without being able to
       | support themselves, leaving loves ones on the hook. But the best
       | form of "insurance" against that happening is pensions, social
       | safety nets, and the individuals themselves simply saving and
       | investing well as long as they're still working. Whatever money
       | you might have allocated toward reverse life insurance, just
       | allocate toward appreciating assets that will generate income
       | when the person you're reverse insuring stays alive.
        
       | barbarbar wrote:
       | In most cases the life insurance is for the loved ones to
       | continue their life in a reasonable way in case you die from
       | illness or accident. So despite they want to keep you alive that
       | is not allways what happens. So the reverse may be "nice" but in
       | case you die early it is a double penalty for the loved ones.
        
       | avgcorrection wrote:
       | You think that spouses are giving each other chocolates so that
       | they will die off quicker?
        
       | throwaway81523 wrote:
       | > In particular, reverse life insurance would only pay out to
       | your loved ones if you live beyond a certain age.
       | 
       | But it pays the insurance company to make sure you die early. :(
        
       | Rerarom wrote:
       | Isn't this just private pension?
        
       | Ishmaeli wrote:
       | That's what annuities are designed to do.
       | 
       | In life insurance, you pay the company a small periodic payment
       | in exchange for a large lump sum payment if you die while the
       | coverage is in force. If you die after paying just one premium,
       | you win! If you live so long that you paid more in premium than
       | the lump sum, you lose!
       | 
       | With an annuity, you pay the company a large lump sum in exchange
       | for a small periodic payment for the rest of your life. If you
       | die after receiving just one payment, you lose! If you live so
       | long that the company pays you more than your initial lump sum
       | payment, you win!
        
         | blairanderson wrote:
         | yes and simple calculators are everywhere:
         | https://www.schwab.com/annuities/fixed-income-annuity-calcul...
         | 
         | Its basically 5% Annually... to which stock-people say "why not
         | put into a dividend earning fund" and analysis paralysis kicks
         | in...
        
           | sp527 wrote:
           | That strategy is even better when you factor in stepped up
           | cost bases on inherited property.
        
           | burntoutfire wrote:
           | I went into that calculator and it does not say anything
           | about inflation... Do annuities get wiped out by inflation
           | (i.e. they'll keep paying me the agreed monthly amount, but
           | unfortunately it's not going to be worth much)? If, then
           | they're pretty crappy.
        
             | noodlesUK wrote:
             | There are instruments at least that used to exist (in the
             | UK) called defined benefit pensions that effectively work
             | as you describe. They have some level of inflation cap
             | (typically between 3 and 9%) beyond which they are not
             | inflation protected. I don't know if people can still get
             | them, but many pensioners in the UK on private pensions
             | have them.
        
             | rundmc wrote:
             | Fully agree. That's why tontine are so attractive, the
             | income is expected to rise which may keep up and possibly
             | surpass inflation.
        
         | rundmc wrote:
         | But the annuity only 'rewards' your longevity if you live 15-20
         | years or more because that is the bare minimum it takes to get
         | back your capital.
        
           | imachine1980_ wrote:
           | Yes, that's the point. if not is a ponsi scheme, or simple
           | investment in bonds, the point is you make sure than you
           | don't get whiout buck if you live till 100, not make maximun
           | money, this service use actuarial probability to assurethat.
        
       | bilsbie wrote:
       | I just saw a similar idea for a gym membership. Expensive upfront
       | cost but you get $5 dollars back every time you work out.
        
         | abeppu wrote:
         | I think a key issue is that people that want to go the gym
         | don't want it to be crowded. Under the current model,
         | supposedly gyms rely on people paying memberships but not
         | going. But also, the people that are actually there also want
         | it to be well under capacity so they don't have to wait for
         | equipment, etc. So even if you're really confident that you
         | would go to the gym often enough to recoup your costs, would
         | you want to go to a gym where everyone else has an extra
         | motivation to go?
        
           | iso1631 wrote:
           | And if you want to go to the gym more often, but things get
           | in the way, this gives you a more concrete incentive to go
        
       | dragonwriter wrote:
       | > This would encourage your loved ones to keep you alive until
       | you reach that age.
       | 
       | If your loved ones love you in return that's an incentive for
       | them to keep you alive as long as you are deriving value from
       | life.
       | 
       | If they don't, you might not want them to have an incentive to
       | keep you alive to arbitrary age.
        
       | LeroyRaz wrote:
       | Isn't this a pension?
        
         | rundmc wrote:
         | If it's a DC pension such as a 401k or an IRA then they punish
         | you for living longer because they once they run out that's it.
        
       | NickRandom wrote:
       | I'm not sure about what the concept is but tell me if this is
       | more or less it -
       | 
       | So you pay me (the insurer) a monthly premium and if you live to
       | be 150 years old I pay you a million dollars and if you die
       | earlier than that all I get is the money from the premiums? Ok,
       | I'll take _that_ deal and wouldn 't have any problems getting
       | reinsurance on it. Fantastic, write me a check.
       | 
       | 150 y.o is a bit too high? Ok, no problem we'll make it 109
       | years. I'll still take the deal (and your money).
       | 
       | Lower that to you making it 40, 50 or 60 y.o to get the payout?
       | No thanks. Well, not without a full medical and access to some
       | actuarial tables :)
        
         | the_only_law wrote:
         | > Lower that to you making it 40, 50 or 60 y.o to get the
         | payout? N
         | 
         | How about 90? It's pretty old, and many people won't reach it,
         | but it's not exactly super rare either.
         | 
         | Then again, one topic that's popular on HN is age extending
         | technology, if that ever became a realistic option you're
         | screwed.
        
           | JJMcJ wrote:
           | Assuming public health doesn't collapse in the near future,
           | and that's a real possibility, it seems like 85 is the new
           | 70. That is, someone makes it to 85, you can say they had a
           | long life, instead of the old three score and ten.
        
           | NickRandom wrote:
           | The percentage of people living past the age of 90 is much
           | greater than it was in the neolithic era so the premiums
           | would be priced appropriately. To 'win' all the insurer needs
           | to do is ensure that payouts never exceed 49% of premiums
           | received. Calculating the premiums payable on a million
           | dollar policy with a cut-off of living beyond the age of 90
           | is a dark art relegated to the world of Excel tables, COBOL,
           | Fortran and AS400 but gut instinct tells me that the premiums
           | would be at a level that most people with access to a
           | calculator would go 'ah hell no, I'll stick my premiums in to
           | a fixed deposit interest bearing account instead'.
           | 
           | If you have ever seen life assurance policies that state
           | somewhere in the fine print words to the effect of 'this is a
           | whole of life policy and the premiums paid over the lifetime
           | of this policy may exceed any expected payout' then congrats
           | - You've just spotted the 'gotcha' of insurance.
        
       | gergesh wrote:
       | I think this is what investing is. Being genuine and not snarky
       | here, but you can put money into a pool and save it and make more
       | back over time, whether or not it's nominally "insurance".
        
       | d--b wrote:
       | This is what we call life insurance in France. It's quite common.
       | 
       | An insurance that pays your loved ones if you die is called a
       | "death insurance".
       | 
       | An insurance that pays you if you live past a certain age is
       | called "life insurance". It's basically a pension fund (except
       | that your loved ones do not get any money you set aside if you
       | die - so usually people take both life and death insurance)
        
         | Ayesh wrote:
         | we have "life insurance" (that pays on death), and "pension
         | plans" that trickles money to your account until you eventually
         | die. But the terms "death insurance" and "life insurance" (in
         | French) make so much sense! Those are how I will call them from
         | now on, no matter how telemarketers who call me name them.
        
           | Someone wrote:
           | "Live insurance" also makes sense. It means you get money
           | when you lose your life, just as "car insurance" means you
           | get money when you lose your car.
        
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