[HN Gopher] Flow Batteries Are Here and They Will Change Everything
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Flow Batteries Are Here and They Will Change Everything
Author : socialdemocrat
Score : 31 points
Date : 2022-07-01 15:30 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (medium.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (medium.com)
| socialdemocrat wrote:
| Instead of $132 per kWh like Lithium batteries these cost $25 per
| kWh and with almost endless number of cycle times. Covers pros
| and cons.
| vardump wrote:
| I think lithium batteries currently range $50-$100, $132 seems
| pretty high.
| bioemerl wrote:
| Might be comparing different metrics. If it's lifetime costs
| you have to cover replacement timelines for lithium
| degradation, facilities, and so on.
|
| Lots of electronics involved when you have banks of thousands
| of batteries
| tyrfing wrote:
| The problem with those LCOS numbers is, from what I've seen,
| that it's a projected cost once production is scaled to a
| certain (high) level. Lithium ships in high volume today and
| benefits from scale, flow batteries don't. Manufacturers with
| public info like ESS are careful to qualify the price
| disclosures like that by saying it assumes future scaling -
| it's not their cost _today_.
|
| For example, from the ESS ($GWH) 10-K:
|
| > [W]e have not yet produced any iron flow batteries, Energy
| Warehouses or Energy Centers at volume and our expected cost
| advantage for the production of these products at scale,
| compared to conventional lithium-ion cells, will require us to
| achieve rates of throughput, use of electricity and
| consumables, yield, and rate of automation demonstrated for
| mature battery, battery material, and ceramic manufacturing
| processes, that we have not yet achieved.
|
| If there's info to the contrary, I'd love to see it, but I'm
| skeptical of any current cost advantage. At the moment they
| seem to mostly be attractive for longer duration battery
| installations, like that Fort Carson 10-hour battery mentioned
| in the article.
| ncmncm wrote:
| Flow batteries represent an intermediate point between regular
| batteries and synthetic fuels.
|
| A regular battery costs in capital expenditure per kWh it can
| store when fully charged. Once full, the only way to store more
| is to buy more. But efficiency is usually high, and rate of
| energy in and, particularly, out are high.
|
| Synthetic fuels suffer conversion losses, but more storage is as
| cheap as tankage. The expensive parts are the synthesis equipment
| -- electrolyser, catalyzer, compressor, cooler -- and stuff to
| get the stored energy back out, such as a fuel cell or turbine.
| Those cost per kW, not per kWh.
|
| Flow battery storage capacity can be extended by adding tankage
| and electrolyte. The expensive part is the bit the electrolyte
| flows through. So, kW in and kW out cost, per, but round trip
| efficiency is higher. And you can't generally sell somebody
| charged-up electrolyte, or buy it.
| bioemerl wrote:
| The efficiency downside doesn't even appear to be a downside. We
| already have solar excess power when we don't need it. If you can
| store that power and store it cheap, 80 percent efficiency is
| better than zero.
|
| I hope these pan out. We need something to happen ASAP.
| undoware wrote:
| This is incredibly exciting news, but I'd like to kick the tires
| real quick.
|
| Main worry: The magic ingredient this time appears to be vanadium
| instead of lithium, but there's still a magic ingredient (at
| least, according to my cursory understanding of the tech,
| entirely due to the OP's link)
|
| - How abundant is vanadium? Wikipedia says it's 'rarely found in
| nature' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium
|
| - What are the geopolitics of vanadium? Under what conditions is
| it typically mined? Within which nation-states' territories is it
| typically found?
|
| - What other industrial uses does vanadium have?
|
| - What quantity is needed?
|
| - Can we ramp up exploitation of deposits, or are there hard
| reasons (scarcity, remoteness, etc) that prevent this?
|
| - EDIT: most importantly, are there other candidate elements that
| can, in the case of shortage or war, also provide service?
| mhink wrote:
| I'll grant that I'm not an expert in this kind of thing, but
| according to the article:
|
| > Furthermore, vanadium is a readily accessible element in many
| different easy-to-find minerals. The rest of the battery is
| made up of equally accessible materials, making it easy to
| assemble and recycle, in comparison to lithium-ion batteries,
| which need metals like cobalt and manganese to function.
|
| This paragraph links to the following website:
| https://www.australianvanadium.com.au/what-is-vanadium/
|
| Obviously this doesn't answer all questions, but at the very
| least it's a place to start.
| exabrial wrote:
| Flow batteries have been in the news every year but I've yet to
| see a deployment other than this one. If they're so simple what
| is holding large scale implementation back?
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| They only make sense when you have large amounts of low carbon
| power that you want to store for long periods of time.
|
| Usually, just turning down some fossil fuel plant is a better
| option.
|
| Using the electricity via demand response comes after that.
|
| A long wire to somewhere else that can use it and send you back
| some of their excess is next.
|
| If you really can't use that power for anything lithium
| batteries are cost efficient as long as you regularly cycle
| them (e.g. daily solar peaks).
|
| So you need to get into storing power for long periods of time
| before they have a niche. Which is on its way, but isn't here
| yet. So building more renewables makes more sense. (Do enough
| of that and eventually you'll want some more storage options).
| Ajef wrote:
| The article has a link in it to:
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/flow-batter...
|
| If you scroll down there's a table 32.7 about Projects in
| China. A number of which, according to that table, are
| completed.
| gardenfelder wrote:
| Seems worth exploring. few links:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery
|
| https://sumitomoelectric.com/sites/default/files/2020-12/dow...
|
| https://www.powermag.com/flow-batteries-energy-storage-optio...
|
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/flow-batter...
|
| https://www.science.org/content/article/new-type-flow-batter...
|
| http://www.cei.washington.edu/education/science-of-solar/flo...
| safsgf wrote:
| Flow batter, Glass batteries, seems like everyday there is a new
| battery.
|
| The real question: Can these batteries operate at Grid Scale.
| What happens with Tokyo has a disaster event or any other mega
| city for that matter (where 70% of the population will live
| decades from now).
|
| Today 96% of storage is water being pumped up a hill...
| tim333 wrote:
| Vanadium redox flow batteries aren't that new - the first
| successful ones were made in the 80s -
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery
|
| I hope they get the economics to work.
|
| Also the longest duration flow battery in the Wikipedia article
| runs 10 hours. We really need something that can charge for
| months in the summer and discarge for months in the winter.
| Maybe rust https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27944600 or
| aluminium https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26463249 ?
| nullc wrote:
| It's kind of weird to talk about the prices of flow batteries
| when they're not really commercially available.
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