[HN Gopher] The gut metabolite indole-3 propionate promotes nerv...
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The gut metabolite indole-3 propionate promotes nerve regeneration
and repair
Author : bookofjoe
Score : 203 points
Date : 2022-06-29 13:33 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nature.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nature.com)
| bookofjoe wrote:
| "Here we show that IF [intermittent fasting] promotes axonal
| regeneration after sciatic nerve crush in mice through an
| unexpected mechanism that relies on the gram-positive gut
| microbiome and an increase in the gut bacteria-derived metabolite
| indole-3-propionic acid (IPA) in the serum."
| voisin wrote:
| I don't have a subscription, but I'd be interested to know how
| long the IF protocol was (both duration of fasting and number
| of weeks of IF) and what the human equivalent is. I understand
| that there are reasons why a short IF regimen in mice equates
| to a very long IF regimen in humans.
| jbkkd wrote:
| The pre peer-reviewed version is available here:
|
| https://www.researchgate.net/publication/347663867_The_inter.
| ..
|
| > The IF group did not have access to food (fasting) during
| the first 24 h and then every second day after that (e.g.
| fasting during 0-24 h, 48-72 h, 96-120 h) with ad libitum
| access to food on the alternating days (24-48 h, 72-96 h,
| 120-144 h). Pre-weighed food was provided in the food hopper
| of their home cage at 9:30 am (unless a fasting day for the
| IF groups), and leftover food was weighed 24 h later.
| seabriez wrote:
| Why do I need nerve regeneration and repair? I get it if someone
| is sick or whatever but healthy people probably shouldn't get
| caught up in these snake oil treatments that they never needed in
| the first place. It's great to raise awareness but unnecessary
| for majority of healthy people.
| NonNefarious wrote:
| Who said you do? A lot of people have nerve damage from injury
| or surgery.
|
| I don't see where anyone promoted this as a normal regimen for
| the general public.
| whoomp12342 wrote:
| depends on how you define healthy. for instance, someone might
| have minor nerve damage from a severe injury but can otherwise
| function like normal for the rest of their life.
|
| do they NEED nerve regeneration? no. would it improve their
| quality of life? yes.
| diydsp wrote:
| I searched for some foods to increase Indole-3 Proprionate and
| this page is pretty good. [1] It tells what to eat (fermented
| foods, fiber, sprouted seeds) and what to avoid (sugar, simple
| starches, omega-6-heavy oils). It also introduced me to fermented
| bean curd. Can't want to try it.
|
| [1] https://go.ixcela.com/metabolite-library/ipa
| srcreigh wrote:
| If anyone goes through the citations here to find the
| explanation of how refined carbs (fruit, white rice/flour) and
| omega-6 oils detriment IPA production, would love to read about
| it.
| tpm wrote:
| They displace food containing more fiber and by doing that
| change gut flora to that which does not produce IPA.
| Heston wrote:
| Fruit is not a refined carb...
| srcreigh wrote:
| I assumed that simple sugars count as "refined carbs" and
| simple sugars are found in lots of stuff including fruits.
| Btw, my hope is that this very restrictive diet actually
| isn't necessary for this metabolite.
| Heston wrote:
| By definition they aren't refined. You would have to
| remove the fiber to make those sugars refined as a first
| step. Fruit isn't pure simple sugars and it certainly
| doesn't act that way in the gut when buffered with fiber.
| icegreentea2 wrote:
| I think it's coming from this source
| (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5872783/) which
| more or less just generally claims that "Western Diets" are
| disruptive to gut microbomes.
|
| Annoyingly, it doesn't really pin down what exactly it
| characterizes as "the western diet". It does include
| extracted oils and refined simple sugars (glucose and
| friends). But where exactly stuff like pasta/rice/flour sit
| is less clear in their description.
| Maxion wrote:
| You can look up SAD, the standard American diet for a
| reference.
| jerrysievert wrote:
| prepare for a whole new world. I started with a red fermented
| bean curd that had so many flavors that I stood dumbfounded
| while my brain tried to sort it all out.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Thanks for this. It's interesting how many of these studies
| reaffirm what we already knew. Eat yogurt, fruits, vegetables,
| nuts, etc. Avoid sugar. We might not have known why these were
| good for us but I've been seeing these "guidelines" for about
| 30 years now.
| Melatonic wrote:
| Natto is amazing for SCFA (not specifically propionate though -
| more Glutamate)
|
| I believe traditional salami also has a little propionate
| pstuart wrote:
| Natto is also a great source of vitamin K2 (and I think the
| only vegan one).
| Melatonic wrote:
| By far the highest source of K2 out of EVERYTHING (like
| nothing else even comes close). Its truely great stuff for
| your stomach
| xtracto wrote:
| I tried Natto and really really wanted to get to eat it every
| day. However, one portion gave me huge long lasting
| headaches. The flavour was good, and I am used to eat
| ferments (I make my own vegan yoghurt). I was really sad
| because Natto is supposed to have so many great properties.
| Melatonic wrote:
| Weird. Maybe try another brand? Some of them have weird
| sauces included too you can skip
| delibes wrote:
| I didn't know about most of these fermented soy products -
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fermented_soy_products
|
| But Tempeh is a pretty common one for vegans. I've used it in
| curries and stir fries.
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| I think the problem is that Tempeh is always cooked, so I
| would expect any critters in there to be dead (not that they
| haven't done good work making it more digestible).
| eigenrick wrote:
| My Indonesian friend introduced me to tempeh, which has to be
| one of the most versatile (and healthy) foods. You can toast it
| for a quick snack, but it disappears into nearly every type of
| sweet or savory dish, or it can be the main attraction. I've
| put it into a meat red-sauce for added texture and protein. +1
| would eat again.
| azinman2 wrote:
| Tempeh in Indonesia is great; it takes nothing like the
| tempeh I've had in the states. Admittedly I stopped trying
| over a decade ago because the disparity was so great. Can you
| finally get good tempeh in the US?
| dqv wrote:
| Was it LightLife tempeh? That's the kind I get. I've never
| had anything else, so I don't have anything better to ruin
| it for me.
| michael1999 wrote:
| Anything I buy packaged is sad compared to fresh, home-made
| tempeh. I'd start looking at "alternative" grocers that
| also have fresh seitan.
| SapporoChris wrote:
| seven different types, twelve methods of cooking...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempeh
|
| I've never had Tempeh, but I love tofu, edamame, natto
| and other soy products. This is definitely on my list to
| try and explore the many varieties.
| calebm wrote:
| The "omega-6-heavy oils" makes me think of the work of Dr.
| Nemechek
| (https://www.nemechekconsultativemedicine.com/nemechek-
| protoc...), who works primarily with Autism. He found that a
| variety of brain injuries that of various types (including
| things like concussion), which historically have resolved
| themselves, have, in recent years, stopped healing. So a
| concussion that would have naturally healed a few decades ago,
| keeps giving the patient problems. One of his primary
| recommendations is to decrease the "omega-6 to omega-3" oils,
| because it seemed that omega-6 cause brain injuries not to
| heal. And it's worth noting that almost all vegetable oils
| (canola, soybean, etc), which are in almost all "processed
| foods" are high in omega-6.
|
| This indole-3 link could be the reason why omega-6 oils are so
| bad.
|
| TL;DR: Don't eat processed vegetable oils (other than coconut
| and olive oil).
| janekm wrote:
| Just be aware that that's a whole lot of conjecture with
| little solid evidence behind it. Saying "these brain injuries
| historically resolved but don't any more" sounds much more
| like a change in diagnostics to me.
|
| The evidence against seed oils / processed vegetable oils is
| not very compelling yet (here's a pretty balanced summary:
| https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/are-vegetable-and-
| seed-... )
| cung wrote:
| Am I misunderstanding your comment? Olive oil and coconut oil
| have terrible omega-6/omega-3 ratio, where as canola is
| pretty good.
|
| https://www.cancerschmancer.org/articles/healthiest-
| cooking-...
| redblacktree wrote:
| Genuine question that's likely to sound flippant: Does beer
| count as a "fermented food" in this context? What about wine?
| mega_dingus wrote:
| I don't know the pedantic answer to "is that fermented food"
|
| However, alcohol is quite an irritant and (along with
| caffeine) is the first thing a doc will tell you to cut out
| if you have intestinal problems
|
| Speaking (only) from personal experience, it can be such an
| irritant that it more than outweigs the benefits of other
| probiotics and "good foods" -- even in small amounts (e.g. 1
| drink)
| scythe wrote:
| The recommendations on that page don't make much sense? The
| foods recommended are not major dietary sources of tryptophan
| (cf. [1]) and while a variety of fermented foods are mentioned,
| I am not aware of the use of the crucial bacterium _Clostridium
| sporogenes_ in any deliberate fermentative cultures, such as
| are used for yogurt or kombucha, which rather contain [ _checks
| fridge_ ] _Lactobacillus_ , _Bifidis_ , and _Streptococcus_
| species. But _Clostridia_ are typically found in the gut of
| breast-fed newborns within a week of birth [2], suggesting they
| don 't need much help.
|
| I will also note that there _has_ been some work done on the
| incorporation of _Clostridium sporogenes_ into probiotics, but
| it doesn 't come from kefir or miso, and... well... _just read
| it!_ [3]
|
| 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophan#Dietary_sources
|
| 2:
| https://jasbsci.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40104-01...
|
| 3: https://scholarworks.calstate.edu/downloads/x920g252b
| Rastonbury wrote:
| The study is behind paywall, does it say to eat it? The
| abstract just says delivery of Indole-3
| Melatonic wrote:
| The really interesting thing about fermented foods is that
| EVERY single culture (often completely independent of each
| other) developed their own unique ferments. Many were also
| shared but have varietal differences. There are TONS most
| people have never heard about. It is really sad that with the
| advent of refridgeration we lost so many in common culture
| (many or most are still niche). And I am not saying fridges are
| inherently bad - we just should have also PRESERVED (get it?
| BADOOSH) these practices
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| Indoles in general are common gut metabolites and an indole
| proprionate sounds like a further metabolic product.
|
| This leads me to believe that trying to increase
| indole-3-proprionate specifically may be a fruitless journey
| (pun not intended), and one would be better off by optimizing
| for a hospitable environment for beneficial microbes in
| general, for example by cutting out carbs but increasing intake
| of flavonoids.
| feet wrote:
| I suspect you may be right. Many supplements that have been
| tried just get broken down in digestion and don't actually
| increase target levels in the target tissues, rather we need
| to find ways of increasing the intake of precursor or
| figuring out which microbiota are involved in the metabolism
| and giving them a helping hand or just adding them altogether
| fredophile wrote:
| I don't have a citation handy but I know eating fermented
| foods and increased fiber have both been linked to increased
| gut bacteria diversity. Thus seems in line with what the GP
| poster found for practical advice.
| Melatonic wrote:
| Its all about PREbiotics which are the food source for
| probiotics or your gut bacteria. Which encompasses some
| fiber and also sort of is its own thing. Long chain inulin
| and resistant starch are both some good ones
| bananapear wrote:
| _Indole occurs naturally in human feces and has an intense fecal
| odor. At very low concentrations, however, it has a flowery
| smell, and is a constituent of many perfumes._
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indole
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| It is a semiochemical for many flowering plants.
| jcims wrote:
| Lilies always seem like they are on the precipice of smelling
| like death. I wonder if it's the same thing.
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| Now I have the urge to find lilies and thoroughly confirm
| this.
| jcims wrote:
| To me it's sweet from a distance and gets almost chemical
| smelling when you get close. When you really get up in
| there it feels like there's about to be a phase change in
| the smell to something very unpleasant.
| gpcr1949 wrote:
| Interesting, however the indole ring is very common in
| biomolecules, and is also present in tryptophan, serotonin,
| melatonin and others. Most of these will not have fecal odors,
| I3PA probably won't either. For another stinky indole
| derivative, check out 3-methylindole.
| badkungfu wrote:
| Sounds like ambergris.
| narag wrote:
| Ambergris synthesis uses two opposite substances: ambroxide
| and ambrinol. The former is clean, fresh. The later, similar
| to indole, smells pretty awful in isolation, but gives depth
| to the composition when both are mixed.
|
| Indole is the characteristic smell of withered flowers.
| [deleted]
| briankelly wrote:
| _I know you 'd like to think your shit don't stank, but
|
| Lean a little bit closer, see
|
| Roses really smell like poo-poo-ooh
|
| Yeah, roses really smell like poo-poo-ooh_
| mschuster91 wrote:
| A derivate of that family is Skatole [1], with its name
| appropriate to the fact that 1 gram can stink out a whole
| factory hall (at 0.001446 mg/m3 stink tolerance [2], 1 gram
| stinks up to 714.000 m3 of volume).
|
| Fascinatingly, the same is valid here as for indole: at
| extremely low doses the stuff can end up being used in perfume
| [3].
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skatole
|
| [2]
| http://web.archive.org/web/20170507164421/https://www.bmlfuw...
|
| [3] https://www.parfumo.de/Duftnote/Skatol
| imwillofficial wrote:
| "Geez Honey, your perfume smells like shit"
|
| "No, really, that's a compliment"
| 0des wrote:
| It also propagates roots in plants in the form of indole-3
| butyric acid
| gpcr1949 wrote:
| That's a substance distinct from indole-3-propionic acid, so it
| is not a form of indole-3-propionic acid.
| zackmorris wrote:
| I don't know much about this, but I've noticed an increase in
| interest around adaptogens like ashwagandha, reishi, cordyceps,
| and lion's mane:
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3991026/
|
| Going by my intuition, I suspect that the anti-microbial
| properties of roots and fungi affect which gut bacteria are
| active. Since bacteria can make anything, it seems plausible that
| certain diets support healing and even some degree of
| regeneration.
| persedes wrote:
| Having worked on microbiome / metabolome interactions I've seen
| indole-3 propionate pop up for different phenotypes /
| pathologies. Wondering if that was actually the correct
| metabolite or just something related.
| TylerE wrote:
| ... in mice.
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| Hard to find human volunteers for sciatic nerve crushing.
| mrwnmonm wrote:
| I have zero knowledge on biology and medicine, could someone
| explain this to humble people like me?
| xtracto wrote:
| This... someone should make an ELI5. It is always useful for
| people like us :)
| pid-1 wrote:
| It seems gut microbes are in full rage lately.
| majkinetor wrote:
| It seems like we fucked up with antibiotics a lot...
| zucked wrote:
| Like the inner workings of the brain, the way the microbiome of
| our body impacts our life is poorly understood. There will
| definitely be a lot of FUD that will come from this, but the
| TLDR for many of these studies seems to be: eat better quality
| foodstuffs and you'll be better off.
| fumeux_fume wrote:
| This is certainly interesting, but without a wider understanding
| of how the whole body works, it's not particularly useful on its
| own.
| upupandup wrote:
| TLDR on increase i-3p:
|
| - eat fermented food with non processed carbs (ex. rice & kimchi)
|
| - practice intermittent fasting
|
| Both of which I am doing and I can attest to the increased
| productivity, mental acuity. In fact when I was eating well by
| Western standards, I didn't quite feel like this, probably
| because it takes forever to digest stuff like steak, fries etc.
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