[HN Gopher] One man's fight to end California's ban on ferrets
___________________________________________________________________
One man's fight to end California's ban on ferrets
Author : danso
Score : 91 points
Date : 2022-06-27 17:52 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.latimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.latimes.com)
| Zak wrote:
| Given that ferrets are legal to keep as pets in Arizona, Nevada,
| and Oregon, it's probably not terribly difficult to quantify the
| ecological and agricultural impact in places similar to
| California.
|
| I don't know if any such research has been done, but I _suspect_
| if it was done and found significant harm, there would be a
| movement to ban ferrets in one or more of those states. My very
| brief web search did not find one.
| sigzero wrote:
| Ferrets are only illegal in Hawaii, California, DC, and NYC at
| this point.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Favorite story of ferrets:
|
| https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/felicia-ferret-particl...
|
| They found a way to use them to clean metal debris :)
| mattanimation wrote:
| when I read this I immediately just thought of the neighbor in
| Silicon Valley
| AlbertCory wrote:
| My brother had a ferret. It was a lousy pet, not remotely
| "cuddly" or "playful." As soon as you let it loose, it would run
| behind the washing machine and hide. He also had a (de-scented)
| skunk; also a lousy pet.
|
| I really don't understand why non-farmers feel this desire to
| have pets other than dogs or cats, or rabbits, or reptiles, or
| birds, or any of the other legal pets. If you really need to feel
| different, paint yourself blue.
| wildekek wrote:
| I owned two ferrets for a few years. You can have all the time in
| the world and read up as much as you want, but very few people
| have what it takes to deal with these wonderful feral shitheads.
| conradfr wrote:
| Surprisingly it wasn't Noah the neighbor from Silicon Valley.
| dboreham wrote:
| Learned from this that Ferrets are a domesticated species (like
| dogs and cats). I'd only heard of them in the context of Monty
| Python and affinity for trouser legs and assumed they were a wild
| animal.
|
| Also, they're _big_ : we have a kind of Weasel (Ermine) in
| Montana and I've seen then drag an adult rabbit carcas over long
| distances. Ferrets look to be around twice their size.
| vrc wrote:
| The black footed ferret is native to the US, wild, and
| endangered. The domestic ferret is thought to be from the
| European polecat
| gadders wrote:
| They're not that big, at least in the UK. They're about the
| size of your forearm.
| pxc wrote:
| > Also, they're _big_ : we have a kind of Weasel (Ermine) in
| Montana and I've seen then drag an adult rabbit carcas over
| long distances. Ferrets look to be around twice their size.
|
| Most pet ferrets come from one inbred line produced by one
| monopolist who breeds ferrets for research (testing drugs and
| chemicals on animals) and for sale in pet stores. Those ferrets
| are pretty small (2-4 lbs), in part because they're virtually
| all pediatric neuters, and never go through puberty.
|
| There are also very small numbers of ferrets available from
| small breeders in some states. They tend to be a bit larger,
| and additionally those breeders also sometimes sell hybrids
| (ferrets crossed with wild polecats), who are quite a bit
| bigger.
|
| Anyway I think of domesticated ferrets as pretty small! And I
| guess they're much smaller than whatever wild/feral relatives
| they're sometimes crossed with in the hopes of improving health
| or genetic diversity.
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| In NZ the ferrets tend to specialise in rabbits, the stoats and
| weasels go for rats, mice, and birds.
|
| Although I did once see two stoats coursing a brushtail possum
| to death, it was nasty AF.
|
| But yeah, apparently stoats and weasels can't be domesticated
| like ferrets.
| pvaldes wrote:
| We probably could, but we definitely don't want it.
|
| They have a different sense of time and are just too much
| energetic to be bearable.
|
| Would be like having a children with the most severe case of
| ADHD jumping over you each five seconds non-stop after
| drinking ten coffes and doing cocaine. Just watching a stoat
| to play is exhausting.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| My younger brother had a pet ferret growing up. It wasn't that
| big. But it had no fear. Our large dog (rhodesian ridgeback X
| black lab cross) was scared of it. They'd "play" but the dog
| always backed off.
|
| They only have two modes: sleep and play/hunt. Ours learned to
| play with us without puncturing our skin, but its play still
| involving biting and tugging incessantly.
|
| Once a squirrel had gotten into a wall cavity. The ferret knew
| and paced outside of the wall for days, every waking hour, just
| obsessed.
|
| It smelled pretty bad. The scent gland had been removed but it
| still had a musky odor that got through the whole house.
|
| One day it escaped the confines of the house and got over to
| one of the neighbours. It got into their garage and killed an
| entire litter of little kittens.
|
| We think an owl caught it not long after.
|
| Their status as pets is a bit dubious IMHO. They'd also be a
| real problem anywhere near where people keep poultry or
| rabbits. They're notorious serial killers. Weasels get into
| chicken coops and slaughter whole flocks seemingly for fun,
| killing like crazy but actually eating very little.
| surfpel wrote:
| > killing like crazy but actually eating very little
|
| For a domesticated species it sounds like that is the main
| function.
|
| That is, it would make sense that humans domesticated
| multiple species (cats, dogs, ferrets, minks, etc..)[1] to be
| adept at killing just for killing sake, probably with
| different niches. Dogs for defense, and all of them able to
| offer pest control for various sizes of pests.
|
| This is pure speculation on my part however. Any experts care
| to weigh in?
|
| 1 - (dogs and minks killing lots of rats)
| https://youtu.be/SM4C3_nMN_g
| [deleted]
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| The thing is that the wanton serial seemingly-senseless
| slaughter isn't confined to domesticated weasels. Wild
| weasels do it too. We keep chickens and have heard so many
| stories of people coming out to find that a fisher has
| gotten into their coop and destroying 20, 30 chickens and
| then just leaving with maybe one. Their instinct to kill is
| so strong and they're intensely efficient at it it seems to
| go well beyond hunting for hunger.
|
| Yes, cats are a bit like this, too, but not to this scale.
| And cats are remarkably more parsimonious with their energy
| usage. They'll beat up a mouse for an hour, and then just
| sleep like crazy. Or stalk a single bird, and be satisfied
| with that.
| exhilaration wrote:
| _Their instinct to kill is so strong and they 're
| intensely efficient at it it seems to go well beyond
| hunting for hunger._
|
| I read up on this after our community's chickens were
| massacred by a fox -- it's called Surplus Killing
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surplus_killing and here's
| what's believed the key motivations:
|
| _... researchers say animals surplus-kill whenever they
| can, in order to procure food for offspring and others,
| to gain valuable killing experience, and to create the
| opportunity to eat the carcass later when they are hungry
| again_
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Interesting. Also gives another reason why roosters so
| aggressively attempt to lead predators away from the hens
| and all the hens scatter even though you'd think they
| might have strength in numbers. Creates a situation where
| only 1 or 2 will die, instead of the whole flock.
|
| A fox got after our chickens two years ago. Our rooster,
| a beautiful and gentle Barred Rock tussled with the fox
| for about 300 feet down to the road (there was a trail of
| feathers) and then dashed under a passing car which was
| forced to stop while the fox brazenly circled. All the
| hens scattered and hid and were fine.
|
| We rescued him from under there and chased the fox away
| and cleaned him up and gave him antibiotics but the poor
| guy had wounds we didn't see that festered, he got a
| fever, and died about 3-4 weeks later despite us doing
| our best for him.
|
| (Turns out foxes long teeth and mouth bacteria/biome are
| also engineered to create a situation where prey may die
| later even if they can't be taken right away. Then the
| fox can come back later when it's weakened or dead)
|
| I'd never been so close to an eastern red fox. They're
| usually super skittish but this one must have been
| extremely hungry and indignant that I took his kill from
| him. Beautiful creature but I don't look at them the same
| way anymore.
|
| We planted a lovely native flowering Eastern Redbud tree
| over the grave of the rooster ("Jacques")
| dboreham wrote:
| Cats seem to catch mice for fun, only eating one after
| playing with it, and if they're feeling peckish.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| Cats tire out mice and injure mice specifically for
| eating but sometimes they just mutilate the body, those
| seemingly playful pats of their paw have a lot of force
| and can send a mouse across the room. The mouse is taking
| consequential damage on every swing, which can come in
| quick succession, and the mouse is not fast enough to
| escape.
|
| The cats in turn avoid any bites when they go to actually
| eat it. They could theoretically do something else to
| kill and eat faster, but its more akin to their long
| range attack ensuring they take no damage, avoiding any
| skin piercing infection.
| Hellbanevil wrote:
| I had a neighborhood cat that wanted to live with me. He
| introduced himself while I was working on my truck. He
| would literally watch me work on my truck. He was always
| looking on right behind me, even when under the truck.
| (maybe because mice sometimes hide in vechicles?)
|
| Anyway for months he would leave a dead mouse on the
| house mat.
|
| I felt sorry for him, and let him stay in the utility
| room, and showed him how to use a dog door. (I would have
| kept him, but he ended up having a home. He lived in a 8
| million dollar mansion, and was feed fresh Salmon, he
| hated the dog.)
|
| I found all that out later. I couldn't let him in the
| house 24/7 because of allergies.
|
| He would sneak in and bring on mice. The mice were so
| quiet, I didn't even notice them until he arrived.
|
| I found out later he was going to multiple houses daily,
| and we all spoiled him.
|
| He did want to live with me, but finally gave up.
|
| I think some wild animal got him though. The wealthy
| family that owned him was devistated. People on that
| Neighborhood social site condemned the family for not
| keeping him indoors, but they didn't know he liked his
| freedom.
|
| He lived a full life, but killed a lot of rodents. Which
| didn't bother me at the time. Well it kinda did, but rats
| I just can't live with.
|
| I used to believe all cats should be kept indoors, but
| once certain cats are used to freedom it's painful to
| watch them suffer mentally by being inside. I learned
| where the Tom Cat phrase came from by knowing him.
| kloch wrote:
| It depends on if it's a fully domestic cat or one that
| has spent significant time living on it's own in the wild
| (stray/feral).
|
| I've seen a domestic cat play with a mouse until it's
| dead, then act like it doesn't know what to do with it.
| An old stray cat (that had rejoined domestic life but
| didn't have the energy to catch and play with the mouse)
| would then get up and eat it in two chomps.
| bbarnett wrote:
| And the middle ground, the barn cat.
|
| The barn cat knows humans, but is also not let inside the
| house. It is also rarely fed, unless sick, but has the
| comfort of the barn.
|
| Such cats are often highly efficient, and eat all their
| prey for food.
|
| I've seen barn cats, when old, fed and kept in nicer
| surroundings.
|
| This is what cats are primarily for! To keep mice
| populations down in barns, feedlots, groceries, etc.
| clairity wrote:
| at the cat rescue i volunteered at, the kittens who were
| too feral/fearful to become pets were moved over into the
| 'working cat' program. they'd be put in the storage areas
| of the rescue and allowed to roam freely in those areas,
| but still be near humans and be fed/litterbox trained.
| then businessowners could adopt them to keep the rodent
| population under control in their businesses. a real win-
| win-win situation, considering those cats would likely be
| put down otherwise.
| jacquesm wrote:
| > killing like crazy but actually eating very little.
|
| That could easily apply to humans.
| sph wrote:
| I personally eat any animal that I kill on purpose.
|
| I should mention that I haven't killed any yet, apart from
| unlucky insects, but if I were to shoot a deer I'll eat it
| too.
| moron4hire wrote:
| I have yet to eat any of the mice I have killed. Wild
| house mice smell like death even when they are still
| alive.
| catlifeonmars wrote:
| Technically, insects are animals too :)
| hypertele-Xii wrote:
| Ferrets were domesticated to hunt rabbits. Literally bred and
| rewarded to kill prey, but otherwise leave intact for
| skinning and cooking, generation after generation.
| pru567 wrote:
| There's some horror stories of ferrets around toddlers (eating
| face/eating fingers), they seem pretty wild.
| scythe wrote:
| Based on some reading, it appears the principal risk of ferrets
| relative to other animals is that they can climb. A crib will
| protect a baby from a cat or dog, but not from a ferret.
| Consequently, the most disturbing examples involve ferrets
| attacking immobile newborns in cribs.
|
| There are lots of reports of domestic pets attacking babies,
| but ferrets are more likely than the others to have the
| opportunity, when normal infant care is applied.
| Clubber wrote:
| >A crib will protect a baby from a cat or dog
|
| A cat can easily get into a crib, not only can they climb,
| they can jump pretty high too. My cats regularly scale a 6"
| wood fence in the back yard to see what the neighbors are up
| to. The first 5" is pure jump, followed by a fairly ugly
| pull-up.
|
| >Consequently, the most disturbing examples involve ferrets
| attacking immobile newborns in cribs.
|
| My college roommate had a ferret. I don't remember him every
| climbing anything and he could hardly jump. He was adept at
| pooping all over the corners of our dorm room though.
|
| Always keep in mind that now a days, just about anything you
| read in a publication or on the internet is over-hyped or
| dramatized, or sensationalized for effect.
|
| "Ferrets can get into a crib and there have been instances
| where a ferret has attacked a child, but the same holds true
| for cats and most household pets," just doesn't sell the
| drama as well.
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| On the contrary, ferrets are generally kept in cages, whereas
| dogs and cats conventionally have free roam of the house.
| Ferrets out of their cage should be monitored, especially in
| the presence of infants who don't know how to interact with
| the animals yet.
|
| We had some concerns about our dog around a newborn child, we
| had to be super careful while the dog adjusted to the baby
| being in the house, because she showed a decent amount of
| jealousy for the attention the baby was getting.
|
| I wouldn't consider allowing a ferret free roam of your
| infant's room to be normal ferret or infant care, it'd be
| irresponsible in terms of both.
| Beltalowda wrote:
| Keeping _any_ animal around toddlers unattended is
| irresponsible and should never be done; this includes cats and
| dogs. Plenty of stories about attacks from the family dog or
| cat too.
|
| That being said, one of my childhood friends had a ferret, and
| can definitely attest they're kind bitey, more so than your
| average cat or dog, and they also seem to have an unlimited
| amount of energy.
| Teknoman117 wrote:
| As someone who has had dogs, cats, and ferrets - it really
| just comes down to training.
|
| The bitey-est animal I've had so far is my current cat.
| Neither of our ferrets were bitey. The only time a bite
| happened was when our (at the time, young) dog backed one
| into a corner and it got scared.
| tzs wrote:
| On the other hand there are also plenty of stories about dogs
| and cats saving kids too.
|
| One of my earliest memories is from being out back and seeing
| something interesting that I wanted to go pick up and play
| with, and our dog (a little wirehaired terrier) getting
| between me and it and forcing me back despite my attempts to
| get around him to get to the interesting thing, while barking
| his head off until my mom came out to see what was going on.
|
| The interesting thing was a large rattlesnake.
| pvaldes wrote:
| Unlike dogs that sniff and bark, and cats that watch, meow and
| rub everything, ferrets interact with the world by biting and
| tasting.
|
| If they love you, they will show it pulling gently the hair in
| your arms with its mouth while you are watching TV. This can
| last for a lot of time.
|
| If they are startled, in pain or feel threatened they will sink
| the fangs in your flesh and bite. Strong. Every single owner of
| a ferret show small red spots in their arms. And they are
| perfectly capable to chew off a finger, even if that behavior
| is extremely rare in a domesticated animal.
|
| I don't have any problem with people having them as pets in
| Europe. They love to be cuddled, are affectionated, playful and
| curious, but they also smell, are oily, lose the hairs when in
| heat, and sometimes yes, they bite.
| hilbert42 wrote:
| _" The agency introduced "gripping" testimony in a Senate
| committee meeting from a 14-year-old Nevada girl who had been
| mauled as an infant by a ferret."_
|
| No doubt a terrible tragedy for the child and parents and one
| hopes it never happens again.
|
| However, there's a reasonable compromise here - simply make it
| illegal to own a ferret if you have children below a certain age
| where they're incapable of defending themselves - perhaps six or
| so. Similarly, if you own ferrets you must ensure that they don't
| endanger other children that are not your own.
|
| Overtight regulation such as banning ferret ownersip until
| children are say teenagers is also not the answer as kids get
| great fun with playing with them. Here sense ought to prevail.
|
| As a kid I was mauled by a dog and my injuries hurt, but we don't
| ban them nor would I ever advocate that except in exceptional
| circumstances - or perhaps with some very vicious breeds such as
| Rottweilers (as some municipalities have done). Similar logic
| ought to follow with respect to ferret ownership.
|
| Moreover, it seems to me that the 1933 rule banning ferrets
| because of farmers' concern for their farmland ought to be
| questioned. They should put up solid evidence of potential damage
| or shutup (why is it a problem in CA to the point of banning but
| not so elsewhere?).
|
| _BTW, my mauling was essentially my own fault, I pushed my hand
| through a picket fence to show a schoolfriend something I 'd
| found and in the excitement I'd forgotten his dog was vicious.
| The dog grabbed my hand and lower arm to the point of bleeding
| and wouldn't let go until he ordered it to do so. Incidentally,
| I'm a dog lover and have owed dogs but never a ferret (they
| weren't very common in my area when I was a kid or I likely would
| have). However on second thoughts it wouldn't have been the
| smartest idea as I owned a collection of white rats and mice.
| Owning and looking after them was quite an interesting learning
| experience but that's another storey._
| snarf21 wrote:
| One could easily argue that if an animal isn't safe to be left
| alone with children 6 and under that it is a very bad choice
| for a pet. Kids would have fun playing with a tiger cub too.
| Just get a cat.
| hilbert42 wrote:
| I did say _perhaps_ six, that is I didn 't stipulate a
| specific age. Moreover, I also put a caveat to the effect
| that it ought to be illegal to own a ferret if kids were of
| an age where they were unable to protect themselves.
|
| What more could I've said to be reasonable? Clearly there's
| no pleasing some people no matter how reasonable or
| considered one's comments are - and you're one of them. Your
| ludicrous implication that a ferret is as dangerous as a
| tiger cub points to the degree of how unreasonable you
| actually are.
|
| Incidentally, despite not owing one as a pet, I've actually
| held and played with ferrets and I found them great fun and
| they've never bitten me - unlike some family cats I've known.
|
| As I've posted previously on HN, I thank myself truly lucky
| that I grew up in an era before overprotective helicopter
| parenting and thus - unlike many of today's generation - I
| along with my friends grew up with both autonomy and
| resilience.
|
| There would have been nothing further from my parents' minds
| than the thought of my parents banning me from owning a
| ferret and by the standards of the day they were
| overprotective of me (I used to whinge about it when I saw
| what my friends' parents let them get up to).
|
| P.S., thanks for the downvote.
|
| -
|
| _Edit /afterthought: decades ago when I was a kid I was
| living outside the US and up to that point I'd never been
| there let alone California. Even so, at that young age I well
| aware of CA's well deserved reputation of being the 'whacky'
| state - the whole world was aware of the fact. Thus it's
| little wonder CA's the odd-man-out on ferret laws, it's just
| acting true to form._
| pxc wrote:
| There really are no animals that are safe to be left alone
| with children under 6. Critters of any species are liable to
| bite or scratch if they are badly hurt, scared, or trapped,
| and kids are clumsy, energetic, unpredictable, and often very
| rough with animals (usually without any malice, of course).
| And with small animals (e.g., cats, ferrets, dogs under 10
| lbs), an unsupervised 5-year-old is a danger to the animal,
| too. A kindergartener tripping and falling on a tiny animal
| like that can break bones!
|
| Animals can be great with kids and vice-versa, but it's
| really important to always maintain supervision with kids and
| animals.
| hilbert42 wrote:
| _...Seems you too didn 't read what I actually said about
| the actual age and my caveat. Does the word 'perhaps' mean
| anying to you?
|
| May I suggest you provide me with sample text that would
| make my points unambiguously clear?_
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| That comment wasn't talking to you, and wasn't about what
| you said.
| hilbert42 wrote:
| Fine, I accept that, my humble apologies.
| tokai wrote:
| Cats can also be dangerous for young kids.
| sigzero wrote:
| Dogs do this as well. We've had several pairs of ferrets.
| No incidents with 4 kids growing up.
| hilbert42 wrote:
| Correct, and as expected. Thanks for the backup.
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| The reason this comment is at the bottom is because you managed
| to come up with a regulatory proposal that is absolutely
| ridiculous to both sides of this:
|
| 1. The weird people in California who think ferrets are
| dangerous and/or could cause an ecological problem, and hence,
| think they should be banned outright.
|
| 2. Anyone who's actually ever interacted with a ferret, and
| thinks the idea you should be banned from owning one while you
| have young children, because _that 's_ a ridiculous regulatory
| overreach.
|
| As a note, I own literally hundreds of different items that
| could be lethal to my infant. My infant is _in the same house
| as all these things_! I have knives, hammers, saws, a
| lawnmower, all sorts of toxic cleaning supplies, numerous
| electric devices which connect to 120V power. Of course, as a
| responsible parent, I know to keep them and my infant separate.
| The idea that a parent can 't also be responsible to not allow
| pets access to an infant is... absolutely ludicrous, especially
| when applied to a relatively safe pet like a ferret.
|
| For those who have never actually seen a live ferret: They most
| commonly live in cages, and are supervised when out. The videos
| of folks you see online where they have free roam tend to be
| the sort of people who have explicitly decked out one or more
| rooms of their house to be safe for ferrets to run around
| without getting hurt (which is far more likely than them
| hurting anyone).
|
| 90 years ago, some farmers got worried about ferrets, got a law
| passed in California with no justification in science, and now
| despite 48 other states demonstrating there's no actual risk
| here, supposedly enlightened progressives are scared of them.
| No wonder disinformation has thrived in today's tech platforms.
| hilbert42 wrote:
| The only additional comment I'd make is the fact that rules
| in the vast majority of other States were made _before_ the
| internet and social media took hold of people 's senses.
| davidhegarty wrote:
| Shout out to one of the greatest documentaries of all time: PBS's
| 'Ferrets - The Pursuit of Excellence'.
|
| It is ever bit as funny 'Best in Show'... but the characters are
| real.
|
| The only place I can find a streaming version is this low quality
| YouTube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrhSFMO4egI&t=4163s
|
| The DVD is now ~$80 on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Pursuit-
| Excellence-Ferrets/dp/B000RL2...
| [deleted]
| stewx wrote:
| Reminds me of the Silicon Valley ferret neighbour scene:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMK_GAyRY0o
| lovetocode wrote:
| I was quite literally watching SV when I saw this post
| Saint_Genet wrote:
| Also, let's not forget, let's not forget, Dude, that keeping
| wildlife, an amphibious rodent, for uh, domestic, you know,
| within the city, that aint legal either.
| tokai wrote:
| They are not wildlife.
| [deleted]
| projektfu wrote:
| It was a Big Lebowski reference.
| dylan604 wrote:
| the upper case Dude was a dead giveaway, but that's just
| like your opinion man.
| [deleted]
| mirceal wrote:
| What? Are you a park ranger now?
| paulgb wrote:
| TIL that although the Dude referred to it (earlier in the
| movie) as a marmot, the part was played by a ferret.
| https://thebiglebowski.fandom.com/wiki/Marmot
| jansan wrote:
| "Are you familiar with the California fish and game code
| section. 21.16-21.26 with regard to the possession and
| harboring of ferrets?"
|
| "Oh god"
|
| "Oh yeah, those little shits are illegal."
| pvaldes wrote:
| And many people sweating blood and tears to save endemic fishes
| like the Bonytail, the razorback sucker, the Colorado Pikeminnow,
| the four Ambystoma species of tiger salamanders, the California
| Red-legged frog, the Giant and San Francisco Gartersnakes, the
| California Ridgway's rail. Without talking of the endangered
| freshwater clams, snails and crustaceans of California.
|
| This man is not a hero. Feral ferrets would treat tens of species
| of endangered animals of California. They even maybe could block
| an hypothetical future reintroduction of the American polecat
| (unlikely, as is a pairie dog specialized hunter from Central US,
| but not impossible as is one of the most endangered mammals of
| US).
|
| All this effort could be destroyed for the lack of vision of one
| single man and the "but is so cute" trap. Nature is too important
| to be left to the caprices of pet owners.
| jasonhansel wrote:
| 1. Wouldn't requiring ferrets (aside from the limited number
| needed for breeding) to be spayed or neutered greatly reduce
| this risk?
|
| 2. Don't feral cats and dogs also pose a threat to ecosystems?
| Why should the threat to endangered species necessarily
| outweigh the significant psychological benefits of pet
| ownership?
|
| 3. Couldn't feral ferrets from one of the many states where
| they are already legal easily make their way into California
| anyway?
|
| 4. Since many people violate the ferret ban anyway, wouldn't
| legalizing and regulating the keeping of ferrets result in more
| responsible ferret ownership?
| guerrilla wrote:
| > Don't feral cats and dogs also pose a threat to ecosystems?
|
| Yes, but that doesn't mean we should make it worse.
|
| > Why should the threat to endangered species necessarily
| outweigh the significant psychological benefits of pet
| ownership?
|
| Because ecosystem collapse could kill us or at the very least
| be very expensive in the long run. We're not gods, so we
| depend on the ecosystem working.
|
| > Couldn't feral ferrets from one of the many states where
| they are already legal easily make their way into California
| anyway?
|
| Maybe, but that doesn't mean we should make it worse.
| pvaldes wrote:
| 1. Neutered animals still hunt, one single racoon released in
| a small Spanish Island by idiots almost wiped the entire
| colony of an endangered marine bird in two years.
|
| 2. One problem does not exclude the other. Ferrets live in
| freshwater systems. Can swim and eat amphibians, fishes and
| molluscs. They know how to manage toads to remove the poison
| glands and then eat the toad entire. Feral cats don't like
| frogs, and avoid entering in water unless necessary. Cats
| favor to live near humans and are quickly extirpated from
| wild areas with raptors. Ferrets instead, dive into crevices
| and rocks, remain hidden and are much more hard to hunt.
|
| 3. They could and they should be eliminated if you want to
| save the Californian fauna. In any case "I want to be allowed
| to violate the law in my state, because the other states
| don't care and is free for all there" is a false dichotomy.
|
| 4. Not. You would just increase the number of ferrets and the
| probability of escape. To start, entire litters would be
| released by the animalist crew (100% of probability if the
| species is legally allowed to breed). Moreover, ferrets
| aren't dogs, they enter in each hole of crevice that see, and
| need to investigate it, even for days. They will not return
| to you when you call them so (unlike cats and dogs), if you
| let your pet play in the garden alone for one minute, you
| will lose it. Entire females in heat are an "hormonal bomb"
| they either mate or die by stress if let alone. This mean
| that they travel a lot in search of a male.
| scythe wrote:
| >one single racoon released in a small Spanish Island
|
| Island fauna are uniquely ignorant of threats. On some
| islands, birds will literally walk right up to humans -- a
| huge, mean apex predator. The situation in California is
| not reasonably comparable.
| pxc wrote:
| > They will not return to you when you call them so (unlike
| cats and dogs),
|
| Ferrets can be recall trained using literally the exact
| same methods as one uses for cats and dogs. They learn the
| same way.
|
| > if you let your pet play in the garden alone for one
| minute, you will lose it.
|
| Yeah, this kind of thing likely surprises a lot of new
| ferret owners. People I've seen who are serious about
| caring for their ferrets never leave them unsupervised
| outdoors, ever. Leashes, backpacks, and fully enclosed
| structures (like 'catios') are popular tools. Even
| supervised outdoor play requires a lot of preparation and
| vigilance.
| olalonde wrote:
| > one single racoon released in a small Spanish Island by
| idiots almost wiped the entire colony of an endangered
| marine bird in two years
|
| That's crazy. Do you have a link to that?
| pvaldes wrote:
| Let me refresh my memory
|
| Checked. I stand corrected. It was a few months, not two
| years and the seabird was not an endangered species
| globally (but can be locally).
|
| It happened in the National park of Timanfaya almost
| twenty years ago. At the end of June-2003, a trail of
| depredated corpses of Scopoli's shearwaters started to
| appear.
|
| The area is dry and the invisible predator left no traces
| and almost no faeces to examine. The National Park staff
| suspected a ferret as main candidate. Dogs, cats or even
| badgers were also in the list, some camera traps were set
| and eventually show a racoon.
|
| Until caught at the end of the summer, the final
| "bodycount" was 100 shearwaters killed (plus the orphaned
| chicks unable to survive without the parents). This just
| by one single racoon in a single summer. The animal was
| tame, not afraid of people and was clearly a released
| pet. If it hadn't happened in a national park no one
| would have bothered to hunt it.
|
| I only found a link in Spanish, you can use google
| translate if you are curious about the details.
|
| https://www.abc.es/espana/canarias/abci-capturado-
| mapache-ca...
| xbar wrote:
| Similar but different, invasive rats in Galapagos have
| been particularly destructive in the past 50 years.
|
| https://galapagosconservation.org.uk/invasive-black-rats-
| in-...
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| "Wild" North American raccoons here in their native range
| are also completely unafraid of people. Or even dogs. At
| least in urban areas. They basically "know" that they
| can't really be messed with, because it's not typically
| legal to shoot them, they have nasty teeth and claws, and
| they're ridiculously smart.
| navbaker wrote:
| I found this in the first google result ( https://www.sci
| encedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004896971... ), but
| my first pass at the article didn't mention anything
| about a marine bird it threatened.
| pvaldes wrote:
| Different cases and different places. Mallorca Island is
| located south of France. Lanzarote Island is located to
| the west of the Sahara.
|
| The Mediterranean Islands had pygmy elephants, endemic
| goats, bunny like rodents with short ears and forests
| with many trees that were extinct long time ago. All
| fauna now is similar to the continent, and seabirds know
| since long time ago that there are small carnivores
| roaming; and that some places are safe to nest and other
| not.
|
| Canary islands have their own biodiversity area and
| remained much more isolated with no native wild carnivore
| predators.
| tomc1985 wrote:
| A couple of housecats multiplied and wiped out a bunch of
| native species on California's San Clemente island a
| while back. A friend of mine was a contractor doing work
| for the Navy on that island (it's USG property) and told
| me stories about how some of the other folks stationed
| there would grab a shotgun and Jeep and go cat huntin'
| clsec wrote:
| They also have a huge racoon problem in Japan where they
| were introduced.
|
| https://www.dw.com/en/raccoons-wreak-havoc-with-
| agriculture-...
|
| edit: link
| pvaldes wrote:
| Can't fall to mention that the "racoon" shown in the
| photo is a Japanese native mammal :-)
| jasonhansel wrote:
| I think we may be in agreement about the potential risks of
| ferret legalization, even if we disagree about the
| likelihood of the worst case scenario.
|
| But regardless, you need to weigh those risks against the
| enjoyment and psychological benefit that owners derive from
| pet ferrets, just like with pets of any other species.
| mikestew wrote:
| _But regardless, you need to weigh those risks against
| the enjoyment and psychological benefit that owners
| derive from pet ferrets, just like with pets of any other
| species._
|
| I need do no such thing, especially when the argument is
| one logical step away from "but ma freedumbs!". Or
| whataboutism, I haven't decided. But "yeah, we might lose
| an endangered species or two, but what about _my_ needs?
| " is what I'm reading here.
| rexpop wrote:
| > you need to weigh those risks against the enjoyment and
| psychological benefit
|
| The risks are massive, and the opportunity cost
| miniscule.
| wcarron wrote:
| The enjoyment and psychological benefit of pet ownership
| is of exactly zero consequence.
| armada651 wrote:
| > But regardless, you need to weigh those risks against
| the enjoyment and psychological benefit that owners
| derive from pet ferrets, just like with pets of any other
| species.
|
| What's the unique psychological benefit that owners get
| from a ferret that they wouldn't be able to get from a
| cat, dog or any of the numerous already legal pets?
| sigzero wrote:
| Go watch videos of ferrets playing. They are amazing
| animals. I love mine and would rather have a ferret than
| a cat but maybe not a dog.
| pxc wrote:
| Or if you're not in CA, see if you can find a ferret
| rescue willing to let you meet some in person.
| pvaldes wrote:
| There is also enjoyment and psychological benefit in
| watching native animals in nature. Who has the priority?
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| Ferrets are, like dogs, heavily play-focused animals. For
| people who can't own a dog-sized animal, ferrets are an
| excellent choice for active pet owners. Your rabbit or
| guinea pig is literally going to sit there, eat, and
| poop. Ferrets are one of the only small pets you can
| really actually play with.
|
| I think they're extremely good pets for kids, because
| they're friendly, active, (relatively) robust and much
| less likely to cause harm to a kid than a larger animal
| like a dog.
| nomel wrote:
| My small dog is about 2 lbs heavier than a ferret, and
| shorter in length.
| hgomersall wrote:
| Arguably cats and dogs should be banned too!
| nomel wrote:
| Cats definitely. I've seen outdoor cats kill many birds,
| and have even come across house cats out on hiking
| trails. What do dogs do to native wildlife though? I've
| never seen this argument made before. Wild dog packs are
| very rare, and usually taken care of since they're
| dangerous. Ferrel cats aren't all that different from
| house cats, and can be found everywhere.
| Clubber wrote:
| Just ban people from California and be done with it. 99%
| of all of California's ecological problems would be
| solved right there.
| rcpt wrote:
| At the very least allow people to kill cats when they're
| on your property.
|
| Instead you can face a year in jail if you put down the
| cat that's been hunting your rabbits and chickens
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| People have problems with cats and chickens? Dogs, sure,
| but cats?
|
| Our chickens stare down the neighbour's barn cat (who
| hunts full size rabbits BTW) and the cat is like...
| hm.... not worth it, and she moves on.
|
| Now, I wouldn't want cats around when they're still
| chicks, true. A rooster comes in handy then, though.
| [deleted]
| hgomersall wrote:
| A few years ago someone in the UK put an electric net
| over their vegetable patch, probably to stop cats. Long
| story short a cat was killed by said electric net. He was
| prosecuted but only got a fine of PS60 or something. I
| suspect he might have felt that was good value to
| eliminate the cat shit from his veggies.
| sanedigital wrote:
| > But regardless, you need to weigh those risks against
| the enjoyment and psychological benefit that owners
| derive from pet ferrets, just like with pets of any other
| species.
|
| This almost sounds like satire. You can't have a ferret.
| Dad said so. Go play with something else.
| mikeyouse wrote:
| Right. It's such a tiring method of argument -- "You
| can't do anything until you exhaustively quantify the
| plusses and minuses." Some things are self-evidently bad
| ideas with potential costs so large and "benefits" so
| imperceptible that they can be safely ignored out of
| hand.
|
| Sorry man, you don't get to have ferrets. You also can't
| own a cheetah or a chimpanzee. Get a hamster, cat, dog,
| tarantula, python, goat, chicken, alpaca, chinchilla,
| fish, parakeet or one of the dozens of other options.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| > It's such a tiring method of argument -- "You can't do
| anything until you exhaustively quantify the plusses and
| minuses."
|
| It takes like ten seconds to go over the benefits of
| ferrets. Why be lazy? I don't think it's a bad idea to
| briefly weigh both sides in just about every situation.
| alistairSH wrote:
| Sure...
|
| - Pluses: furry animal in the house. This benefit can be
| bestowed by a dog or a hamster.
|
| - Minuses: annihilation of several wild species native to
| CA. Neither dogs nor hamsters pose this risk.
| ip26 wrote:
| _Don 't feral cats and dogs also pose a threat to
| ecosystems?_
|
| Yes. Cats in particular are a disaster. Ecologists have been
| trying to figure out how to effectively control feral
| populations and convince people to stop letting domestic cats
| outdoors for decades.
|
| _" It's already a disaster so what's the harm in making it a
| whole lot worse"_ is not the most compelling argument.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| Keep in mind that ferrets will displace some amount of
| cats.
| oldstrangers wrote:
| A lot of these "ferret fears" come from ignorance about what
| happened in New Zealand in the late 1800s / early 1900s.
| Domestic ferrets were crossbred with European polecats and
| brought to New Zealand specifically to counter rabbit
| overpopulation.
|
| They introduced a man made killing machine to run through
| rabbit populations, and unsurprisingly the hybrid ferrets did
| the job very well. Now they thrive on the island as an invasive
| species. All that said, these ferrets are genetically distinct
| from domesticated ferrets. They are not remotely the same
| thing.
|
| A domestic ferret in the US would last all of 8 minutes in the
| wild.
| ramblerman wrote:
| Honest question, what makes you more qualified? You talk as if
| there is "some" desired state for nature to be in, and that you
| know what it is.
|
| To be clear, I have no issue with you lobbying your viewpoint,
| but I find it takes a bit of hubris to pretend to do it on
| behalf of "nature".
| pvaldes wrote:
| > Honest question, what makes you more qualified?
|
| More qualified than whom?
| sigzero wrote:
| Except that hasn't happened in any other State where Ferrets
| are legal and have been for many many years. Hmmm.
| pvaldes wrote:
| Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and maybe we
| are just not looking carefully at it. Or maybe the damage was
| yet done.
|
| In any case this is the old area of distribution of the
| American polecat. Is extinct from all the red area. If you
| look carefully you will spot three tiny blue dots. This is
| the area with actual wild populations of American polecat, in
| the entire planet.
|
| https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8qbxp4Sx6gI/W3S5UtX7E3I/AAAAAAABD.
| ..
| technothrasher wrote:
| > Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
|
| Absence of effect is not absence of evidence.
|
| > maybe we are just not looking carefully at it. Or maybe
| the damage was yet done.
|
| That's a shifting of the burden of proof in an attempt to
| prop up a claim for which you not only have no evidence,
| you in fact have counter evidence.
| gwern wrote:
| > Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and maybe
| we are just not looking carefully at it. Or maybe the
| damage was yet done.
|
| If it existed, then enemies of ferrets like yourself, who
| go so far as to trot out anecdotes about raccoons halfway
| across the world, would know after all these decades. And
| the California state regulators would quickly invoke it in
| their defense. It doesn't exist because it doesn't exist,
| not because no one cares or is ignorant.
|
| This whole topic does illustrate the benefit of federalism
| in serving as 'the laboratories of democracy': if ferrets
| were banned federally, how would we ever know how absurd
| and false all your arguments about the vast ecological
| harms of ferrets were? It would be a case of the seen and
| the unseen. But with federalism, we can simply look at the
| other 49 states and roll our eyes at the hyperbole. They
| aren't perfect natural experiments, but they do fine here.
| pvaldes wrote:
| You would be surprised about how many things we still
| don't know in Biology.
|
| But we do know a few things... for example that European
| and American polecats are mammals in the same genus and
| close genetically.
|
| So close that both are susceptible to the same diseases
| and in particular to the same viruses. How do I know
| that? Because I'm interested in pathology of vertebrates.
|
| We know also that the American polecat went extinct, and
| that diseases played a main role in that. Check the
| bibliography.
|
| Are you following me?
|
| So when you say that there was "not any measurable
| effect". Yes, in fact there is a clear perfectly
| observable effect. The closest carnivore to European
| polecats went extinct in the wild. Why?
|
| > benefit of federalism in serving as 'the laboratories
| of democracy':
|
| I refuse to enter in political stupidity molasses. We are
| talking about nature problems here.
| sigzero wrote:
| > Absence of evidence
|
| Your comment is wrong. Ferrets have been legal in other
| States for enough years to have SOME evidence for people
| that hate ferrets to use. It isn't there because it doesn't
| happen.
| [deleted]
| tzs wrote:
| Has this happened in the 48 states (all but California and
| Hawaii) where ferrets are not banned? How about Canada where
| they appear to be legal in all provinces?
|
| All I've been able to find on this is the paper "Environmental
| Impact and Relative Invasiveness of Free-Roaming Domestic
| Carnivores--a North American Survey of Governmental Agencies"
| [1] which looked at the impact of non-native domestic
| carnivores (dogs, cats, and ferrets) in the US and Canada.
|
| It says this in the discussion section:
|
| > Aside from an occasional "stray", there were no reports of
| "feral (breeding)" ferrets; nor were there reports that of
| "free-living", or "naturalized" ferrets anywhere in the
| continental United States or Canada, including California. More
| importantly, no jurisdiction reported ferrets impacting local
| (native) wildlife, including ground-nesting birds, or
| threatened, endangered and sensitive species.
|
| [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5664037/
|
| Edit: this comment seems quite controversial. In a few minutes
| it got several up votes, then quickly got twice as many down
| votes, then quickly returned to about even. I'm quite confused
| by this.
| rcpt wrote:
| > Edit: this comment seems quite controversial
|
| Pet talk on the internet is like that
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| Rats are illegal in Alberta, and it is one of the few
| populated areas of the world without rats. Of course, the ban
| was put into place before the province was over-run with
| them, and an aggressive rat-killing program was put into
| place along it's eastern border with Manitoba to stop them
| migrating any further.
|
| https://www.domyown.com/images/content/rat_distribution_map_.
| ..
| pvaldes wrote:
| > no jurisdiction reported ferrets impacting native wildlife
|
| Hum, so what do they found that those ferrets eat? tacos?
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| The idea domesticated ferrets would escape, breed, and
| threaten wildlife if one of the most hilarious concepts I've
| ever seen, starting with the fact that getting a ferret that
| isn't already spayed or neutered is basically impossible, and
| ending with the fact that domestic ferrets tend to get fat,
| are lazy, and especially in the case of one of my previous
| ferrets, remarkably dumb.
|
| Of a dozen ferrets I've had in my life, I can think of one
| that might be able to find and capture food well enough to
| survive on his own. And he couldn't reproduce.
|
| It's absolutely shocking to me still that California has this
| weird villainous perception of these basically elongated
| rabbits.
| pvaldes wrote:
| >The idea domesticated ferrets would escape, breed, and
| threaten wildlife if one of the most hilarious concepts
| I've ever seen
|
| New Zealanders probably don't find it so funny
| tzs wrote:
| Ferrets specifically released in large quantity over many
| years to breed in the wild and threaten wildlife, which
| is the case in New Zealand (they were trying to get rid
| of the rabbits), is hardly comparable to pet ferrets
| which are mostly incapable of breeding and which usually
| don't survive long if they do get into the wild.
| nomel wrote:
| > elongated rabbits
|
| That eat meat.
| ttyprintk wrote:
| Tasmania and Australia proactively eradicate feral colonies.
| ajford wrote:
| It's highly unlikely, given that released/escaped pet ferrets
| can't breed. Ferrets purchased for the pet trade are all
| sterilized as a ferret in heat doesn't end well.
|
| Females can die if they go into heat and don't have a mate to
| breed with, and male ferrets can get very hostile around a
| female in heat.
| [deleted]
| hilbert42 wrote:
| _" Edit: this comment seems quite controversial. ..."_
|
| You're not alone, I watched votes on my various comments on
| this matter oscillate in both directions then settle near one
| or zero. I thought my comments rather mild and I wasn't
| deliberately trying to stir up controversy.
|
| A while back I also encountered this sensitivity and
| tetchiness when discussing veganism. Seems some people
| consider such subjects verboten and should not be discussed
| on the internet.
| jpadkins wrote:
| > Feral ferrets
|
| Citation needed. Where in the other 49 states is this scourge
| of feral ferrets?
|
| Domesticated ferrets are to known to die fairly quickly if they
| escape to the wild. They have no hunting instincts. If you are
| worried about feral animals, why would you allow cats but not
| ferrets?
| ip26 wrote:
| _why would you allow cats_
|
| Ecologically speaking, we shouldn't. But the cat is already
| out of the bag, so to speak.
| alistairSH wrote:
| Who is claiming feral cars aren't a problem?
| HideousKojima wrote:
| There are also tons of people in California who _already own_
| ferrets illegally (one of my friends growing up did) and yet
| there 's no feral ferret problem in California. Meanwhile
| there are now feral parrot populations (descended from
| escaped pets) in my hometown near San Diego that weren't
| there 15 years ago, and I haven't heard anyone talk about
| banning parrots for that reason.
| nomel wrote:
| To be fair, parrots aren't carnivores that directly eat the
| native wildlife.
| ajford wrote:
| It's really rare for an escaped "pet ferret" population to
| boom on it's own, since most ferrets purchased in the pet
| trade (i.e. not specifically purchased for breeding) are
| already spayed/neutered. This isn't the case for most other
| pet species.
|
| IIRC, this is done because female ferrets who go into heat
| can/do die if they don't mate and male ferrets will become
| quite hostile when near a female in heat.
| smegger001 wrote:
| wild cats were already here, they just have been driven out
| by humans so house cat fill the niche while being able to
| live beside humans successfully.
| mutatio wrote:
| > Domesticated ferrets are to known to die fairly quickly if
| they escape to the wild.
|
| Citation needed.
|
| Seems like feral ferrets exist in Ireland:
| https://invasivespeciesireland.com/species-
| accounts/establis...
|
| If ecological history has shown anything, it's that things
| shouldn't be "tried out" to see if they do indeed become an
| issue.
| jpadkins wrote:
| Almost all pet ferrets are sprayed and neutered. Female
| ferrets die if they go in heat and don't mate.
| https://www.westdavisvets.com/veterinary-topics/ferret-
| healt...
|
| Maybe CA would have a position if they banned ferret
| breeding farms, but banning pet ferrets is simply dumb.
| sigzero wrote:
| That's a different scenario though. They were brought in to
| curb other animals. They weren't domesticated ferrets let
| loose in the wild.
| ejb999 wrote:
| >>Nature is too important to be left to the caprices of pet
| owners.
|
| I agree - read up on what is going on in the everglades with
| the explosion of huge pythons (many were former pets released
| into the wild) - they have already killed of something like 99%
| of the small mammals in the everglades, and they are not even
| close to containing the problem yet.
| sigzero wrote:
| The isn't happening with ferrets. Ferrets have been legal in
| other States for many many year (over 30+ years in Virginia
| for example) and "feral ferrets" is not only not a problem
| but doesn't happen because they DIE quickly in the wild.
| namlem wrote:
| Ferrets are legal in neighboring Oregon and Nevada. Do they
| cause serious problems in those states?
| sigzero wrote:
| Nope. Been legal in Virginia for 30+ years and nada.
| ajford wrote:
| So can you explain how a number of escaped pet-trade ferrets
| can grow into a force that can threaten an ecosystem when they
| are unable to increase their population size?
| Supermancho wrote:
| > Feral ferrets would treat tens of species of endangered
| animals of California.
|
| They die at temperatures that are a sustained sub-65 degrees or
| sustained 100+ degrees (which you can demonstrate with a live
| ferret, although I wouldn't recommend it).
|
| The blackfooted ferret (endangered) is native to California.
| The claim that domestic sable ferrets would be invasive is
| ridiculous on it's face.
|
| > Nature is too important to be left to the caprices of pet
| owners.
|
| The CA fish and game commission is completely ideologically
| captured as they do not want to engage in any sort of
| scientific study for the non-existence of existing process
| (beyond a simple decree) or legal jeopardy that they may become
| embroiled in, after the fact. They much rather enjoy their
| salaries mediating the relatively safe cases of licensing and
| managing bureaucratic rules around existing fish and game.
|
| There's also the uncomfortable truth that people do possess
| ferrets in CA. Pet stores stock goods for them and vets treat
| them. People all around CA let their ferrets roam outside and
| come back in when it gets colder at night (and to get
| food/water). Young adult/College dorms and apartments are rife
| with ferret owners. Again, the claims about ferrets being a
| "potentially" invasive species are specious, at best.
| pvaldes wrote:
| The European polecat (same species as the domestic ferret),
| inhabits a territory that goes from Finland to Spain. They
| live in western Russia and also in Morocco. They are adapted
| to a wide range of temperatures and climates. If you think
| that an animal living in Moscow can't survive temperatures
| below 18 Celsius, well, think again.
|
| In particular they feel pretty at home in the Mediterranean,
| so would survive perfectly in the Mediterranean weather of
| California as long as they find something to eat. There is
| little doubt about it.
|
| And, as is close genetically to the American polecat, and as
| ferrets need to breed when in heat, there is a danger of
| genetic contamination or displacement of the ultra-rare
| American polecat.
|
| I agree that most mammals will boil and turn delicious at 100
| degrees
| Supermancho wrote:
| > If you think that an animal living in Moscow can't
| survive snow, well, think again
|
| I happen to have lots of experience seeing people who have
| frozen their ferrets, rabbits, hamsters, rats, mice,
| possums, etc to death. Domesticated ferrets aren't stupid,
| but they also aren't very good burrowers. Other than
| finding a nice gopher hole, in the 80s and 90s, a domestic
| ferret froze to death (still floppy, not solid) outside.
| Now CA is so hot, they would probably survive pretty well
| but then die to dehydration and heat in the day even with a
| burrow.
| pvaldes wrote:
| The problem with animalism is that it has a big, big,
| blind spot. They see individuals named Harry and Rex, is
| all that they can see. They are blind to the
| relationships, the consequences, the animals that aren't
| cute, and refuse to see the big picture.
|
| But individuals don't matter.
|
| Not for the science of ecology. Not for nature. Is the
| population and ecosystem what matters.
|
| Individuals in a population die all the time. They
| freeze, starve or are predated each single night. It
| doesn't matter.
|
| It doesn't matter if 980 of each 1000 released ferrets
| die before an hour.
| Supermancho wrote:
| While I agree, the problem is that the Black footed
| ferret already is endangered AND the legal ferrets have
| not crept into the ecosystem from beyond the arbitrary
| lines humans have drawn. So at both the micro and macro
| perspectives, you have no explosion of population.
|
| Taking a large population of ferrets and putting them in
| some California farmland and see them die off might be
| what your conscience requires as "proper evidence", but
| it's ironically illegal to even perform the test. Much
| like the CA F&G, it's an ideological problem, not an
| evidence based one for you.
| pxc wrote:
| > People all around CA let their ferrets roam outside and
| come back in when it gets colder at night (and to get
| food/water)
|
| Do you mean 'roam' within extremely ferret-proofed yards?
| Ferrets famously lack a homing instinct and are not likely to
| find a way home after wandering off, if left outside
| unsupervised.
| the_watcher wrote:
| I was just thinking about the last paragraph. I honestly
| didn't know they were illegal in CA, since I had so many
| friends that owned them growing up (inland southern CA). They
| bought food at the pet store, brought them in for show and
| tell, etc. They didn't hide it at all.
| bragr wrote:
| As apposed to all the other illegal things people do right
| out on the open?
| snug wrote:
| Something I found out about moving to California from Texas where
| I had a ferret. You could still buy ferret food in California,
| even though they are banned. The ferret sadly passed away before
| I moved, or even planned to move.
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