[HN Gopher] Ask HN: How is the remote vs in-person trend looking?
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Ask HN: How is the remote vs in-person trend looking?
How is the remote vs in-person trend looking? With so many
rescinding on offers and freezing hiring, is there a shift where
remote jobs are going more global and in-person staying local? Are
layoffs making finding remote jobs easy or more difficult. Are
indeed, linkedin best places to look for jobs or is working via
recruiter more beneficial during these times?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2022/06/27/layoffs-netfl...
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tech-companies-ramp-layoffs-h...
Author : aruanavekar
Score : 98 points
Date : 2022-06-27 14:15 UTC (8 hours ago)
| karaterobot wrote:
| One data point is that the company where I work, which was
| hedging its bets about returning to the office last time this
| year ("we're evaluating whether to take a hybrid approach"), has
| pretty much acknowledged that that's not going to happen, and has
| started hiring more people who work out of state.
| wuliwong wrote:
| My team at ParkMobile is looking for a Staff engineer
| (Golang&Kafka), fully remote but if you're in Atlanta you can
| come in the office. There is normally one or two days in a month
| where we have an all hands type meeting or planning where they
| want us to come in. Even those days aren't mandatory but if you
| are in Atlanta, it's expected that you will show.
|
| For Parkmobile, we have been battling to hire in the past year's
| ultra competitive market. We still have a ton of hiring to do and
| are probably even looking to accelerate our recruiting. I would
| imagine there are a number of companies that for one reason or
| another aren't freezing hiring because of the economic climate.
|
| I think we have been very productive since going remote but I do
| miss the camaraderie in the office and I believe our "culture"
| has taken a bit of a hit. There are less interactions outside of
| what is specifically scheduled on the calendar. This leads to
| more focus during the day but I am one who thinks great things
| come out of casual conversations with people in the office that I
| don't directly work with every day.
| lefstathiou wrote:
| Early on (during Covid) I made the decision that remote work was
| not for our company (SAAS for financial services) and two years
| in have zero regrets about it. We are clear about our
| expectations so there are no surprises to employees and new hires
| (or we filter out people that want it). Most of our clients in
| financial services have reached the same conclusion.
|
| One of my clients at a large bulge bracket said "if these people
| insist on not being in the office we may just outsource the job
| for a tenth of the comp". I think more companies will take that
| view personally.
|
| Our attrition is sub 5% over trailing twelve months. I get what
| works for us isn't what will work for everyone else.
| ImprobableTruth wrote:
| >One of my clients at a large bulge bracket said "if these
| people insist on not being in the office we may just outsource
| the job for a tenth of the comp". I think more companies will
| take that view personally.
|
| That's obviously an empty threat. If they could save 90% by
| outsourcing, they'd already have done it. The idea that the
| tech market rate is as high as it is because of good-hearted
| managers is absolutely laughable.
| y-c-o-m-b wrote:
| > if these people insist on not being in the office we may just
| outsource the job for a tenth of the comp
|
| Hah, they can go ahead and do that. In fact I encourage it
| because it makes me more money in the end. When the software
| falls apart due to shoddy practices, they'll learn a very hard
| lesson when coming back to reality and end up paying people
| like me double (at best) what they would've originally paid to
| fix the mess. My last company was in the finance space and this
| is precisely what happened. They ended up pouring millions of
| dollars into fixing the disaster from outsourcing. If you ask
| around, you'll find this is a very common story.
| mech422 wrote:
| Having lived/worked thru the off shore craze, I've never
| heard a good outcome from it for a large company...
|
| I know several startups/small companies in the 0-50 range
| that have had awesome outcomes - but nothing larger then
| that...Between time zones and cultural differences, it just
| doesn't seem to work for large groups.
| [deleted]
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| Why would you assume people in a remote country will write
| worse software than you?
|
| There is plenty of foreign talent.
|
| Sure, companies are not great at picking outsourcing firms, I
| think corruption and/or picking your mate's consultancy firms
| plays a role in that.
| smileysteve wrote:
| The reason is the comp. You rarely get the similar results
| by off shoring AND cutting comp significantly.
|
| It often turns out that people who are empowered to write
| good software as a team are also empowered to research
| their market value.
|
| Or vice versa
|
| People who don't challenge if they're getting paid
| similarly as the previous workers also aren't asking if
| they're being provided with the correct technical detail or
| even building the "right" thing. (This can be true of
| hiring too little experience, hiring people and burning
| them out)
| enchantments wrote:
| Is this for your sales team in the US or your engineers in
| Ukraine (based on your open positions)? Do you manage
| engineering remotely but make them come into an office
| together?
| ragnot wrote:
| I at least respect that you are being upfront about it. I do
| think that you'll have a hard time sourcing the high-caliber
| software engineer you might want to get though.
|
| Sure you'll get junior/mid-grade ones (which honestly might be
| enough for you) but I don't think you are going to like what
| happens to your candidates in the coming years. Remote work is
| just such a perk that it is literally one of the make or break
| points for many software engineers. People will inevitably
| migrate to companies with the better perks and it is hard to
| beat coding with your own kitchen and bathroom 10 steps away.
|
| You also kind of gave yourself away with the "if these people
| insist on not being in the office we may just outsource the job
| for a tenth of the comp" in the sense that your industry views
| developers as a cost center and not the reason the company is
| generating value. If you've ever outsourced you know the
| challenges of time zone, language barrier and quality are a
| hard one to beat. You might as well hired a half-way decent
| developer in the beginning, but hey at least you saved a buck
| so you got your quarterly bonus right?
| marcus_holmes wrote:
| I always see this attitude as a management failure. For a
| couple of reasons:
|
| 1. as a manager, I need to be able to manage people when I
| can't see them. I need to look at what they're outputting, what
| results they get, not just whether they're moistening a chair
| for enough hours in the day.
|
| 2. people aren't fungible. Or rather, if they are, then I've
| recruited the wrong people. If I could outsource the job for a
| tenth of the salary and get the same results, then I absolutely
| should do that immediately. If I'm paying 90% of this person's
| salary just so they can moisten a chair in the office, then I'm
| not doing my job right.
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| Most of the tech world is 2 though. Our entire category lives
| because management is too dumb or power hungry to realise
| that.
|
| Sure, you probably shouldn't outsource to the cheapest places
| who barely speak English (eg. India, South East Asia, Russia,
| Eastern Europe), you'll have tons of communication problems.
|
| If you outsource from the States to the UK or Western Europe
| (and test the language knowledge in advance) you'll save tons
| of money and get engineers who can communicate with you.
|
| If the language is not a problem (eg. your staff speaks the
| language of the subcontractor) I've seen amazing deals work
| out without a hitch; eg. Russian founders hiring engineers
| for hundreds per month in Russia, Indian founders hiring
| cheap resources in India.
|
| Outsourcing didn't work out 20 years ago because we didn't
| have tools to work remotely effectively (zoom scalable video
| codec and better broadband have been a game changer) and
| because people went to the cheapest countries.
|
| There is a middle ground of productive engineers living far
| away, happy to earn less and who don't want to live among the
| homeless in an expensive SF flat.
| toyg wrote:
| Anectdotally, I get more fully-remote offers from recruiters.
| They used to be rare exceptions, most contacts would basically
| end with me saying "I'm not moving to London/Amsterdam"; some
| would try to fake it ("yeah we said remote ok, but actually
| that's just a day or two a week..."). Now most will say "fully
| remote" upfront and stress it throughout.
|
| I reckon the UK sector in particular has finally locked on the
| realization that they can save boatloads of money by hiring
| outside London/Thames Valley, and the sky will not fall if IT
| folks are not lined up in big City offices like chickens in pens.
| Covid was a big game-changer.
| nimajneb wrote:
| I don't know if this answers your question, but my employer
| (engineering firm) just announced last Friday that starting July
| 5th being in the office Tue-Thu is mandatory. Then Sept 5th Mon-
| Fri is mandatory. Pre-covid there were very very few remote
| positions at my employer, we are going back to that I guess. I've
| been going in Mon-Fri anyways, so it doesn't really effect me.
| akhmatova wrote:
| _My employer just announced last Friday that starting July 5th
| being in the office Tue-Thu is mandatory._
|
| Then you need to remind your employer that your presence on the
| team is not "mandatory", but rather optional. In the form of
| the 2-week notice you give once you have found a much better
| job that also respects your health and sanity.
| tlear wrote:
| It really depends where you live and work. I used to work for
| a startup few years back that was 15minutes bike ride from my
| apartment. So MUCH better for my mental health. Now I am
| remote with a company on a different continent, it is good
| and I have a home office but sometimes I just get my laptop
| and go to a coffee shop for no reason. Might get a permanent
| desk at a coworksping space. Even with dedicated space at
| home going outside makes me happier
|
| Now if I had your typical 1 hours each way driving commute..
| no way I am going to the office
| bpicolo wrote:
| Yeah - I* _want_ my office and home to be separate spaces.
| I like to have a short commute (ideally walking). Walking
| with no destination in mind in the morning just doesn 't
| suit the same purpose for me. :(
| bityard wrote:
| I think you missed the part where the parent said that they
| were going into the office _by choice_ every day anyway. You
| are demanding that they quit just because the company doesn't
| make it optional?
|
| There seems to be a hard-core "WFH or nothing" contingent
| here that refuse to acknowledge that a great many people
| prefer and even thrive working in a typical office
| environment.
| loudmax wrote:
| I don't think I've ever seen an argument from the hardcore
| "WFH or nothing" contingent saying that nobody should be
| allowed to work in an office if that's what they prefer.
|
| But I have seen arguments from the hardcore "Butts in
| chairs or nothing" contingent refusing to acknowledge that
| a great many people thrive outside a typical office
| environment and may be even more productive that way.
| ryandrake wrote:
| That's the big difference between the camps. The vocal
| WFH people by and large only want the option to work
| remote or not. The vocal WFO people want to return to the
| office _and_ make everyone else return to the office,
| too.
| akhmatova wrote:
| It was a suggestion, not a demand. Anyone who reads
| stay/quit advice they read on the internet as a "demand"
| has bigger problems than I can help them with.
| [deleted]
| newaccount2021 wrote:
| mouzogu wrote:
| Seems ~80% office/hybrid. 20% remote.
|
| Definitely trending to office. Remote as exception.
|
| Companies that had covid full remote, then hybrid, will move to 1
| day remote over time - maybe less.
| sdevonoes wrote:
| I just joined a new company fully remote. Been working in a fully
| remote company during COVID. I receive offers in Linkedin where
| 70% of them are fully remote and the rest are hybrid (I don't
| receive offers which are 100% on site. Funny). So, I think fully
| remote is winning so far. This in Europe.
| protomyth wrote:
| Non-tech community college: We went back to the office last year
| except for some faculty that are still remote. Some of the
| classes are online and some in person. Classes with young mothers
| tend to move to 9PM at night.
|
| I am starting to look for alternate setups to the traditional
| laptop for faculty. We used a webcam that had a flexible stand
| for the beadwork class to show the actual work up close. Testing
| a multi-camera setup with Blackmagic Design STEM mini with larger
| screen (TV of some type) and better cameras with document camera
| (think old overhead) and maybe a flexible close-up camera for
| craft work. I am firmly convinced that laptops are a poor meeting
| experience for presenters.
| T3RMINATED wrote:
| recvonline wrote:
| I was looking for new work this year and found a company which
| hired me for +40% salary increase and remote/timezone free.
|
| Personally I have young kids and therefore prefer flexible times,
| fully remote etc.
|
| Being in Europe, I think fully remote is getting embraced. It's
| the third company where I get US level salary plus all the
| benefits (30 days vacation, unlimited sick leave etc).
|
| I see a strong trend from young families moving to the country
| side and paying off a house from one tech salary. At least in my
| circle.
|
| I hope it stays.
|
| Thus being said, I am a bit nervous moving away from tech hubs
| and having to hope this remote trend truly stays. What if there
| are no good remote jobs in a few years or I get laid off? Being
| in a tech hub still seems, somewhat, more secure to me.
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| > Being in Europe, I think fully remote is getting embraced.
| It's the third company where I get US level salary plus all the
| benefits.
|
| But this is as an actual employee not as a contractor? Most of
| the US roles I've seen, that would consider EU ppl, the expect
| contractor arrangements where you deal with your own taxes.
| milosmns wrote:
| Side note: being an employee in Europe comes with a degree of
| job security (being a contractor doesn't unless you somehow
| insure yourself privately). But, employment benefits come
| with massive paperwork complications for remote people (like
| who pays if you fall from your chair during work). Pros and
| cons, as always.
| drakonka wrote:
| Some places provide the opportunity to choose between being a
| contractor and an employee through a third party local
| company. In my country, my accountant and financial advisor
| strongly recommended I stay a contractor through my own
| company for tax reasons, so that's what I'm doing, but the
| other option also sounds very nice.
| idiotsecant wrote:
| I think remote work is definitely a double-edged sword. For the
| time being wage pressure is high but as large organizations
| find out that they can recruit talent that would have accepted
| a little bit less and done just as good of a job they will
| begin to lower wages for these remote positions, which will
| lead to people being willing to accept a little less, which
| will lead to lower wages, etc until an equilibrium is reached a
| little bit above what typical tech wages would have been
| remotely but well below what US tech wages are now. This will
| be a moderately good thing for workers outside the US, a
| moderately bad thing for workers inside the US, and a fantastic
| thing for the companies who reduced the cost of their labor
| pool substantially.
|
| I feel like there is definitely a little bit of job security in
| staying with a place that insists on local work only, but those
| places will become less attached to that position as they see
| industry peers successfully migrate away from it.
| mech422 wrote:
| I heard the same thing when off-shoring was the rage, and
| salaries are higher then ever for tech workers. I also
| suspect that with declining birth rates in 'industrial'
| countries, the market for tech workers could get even more
| competitive as people retire.
|
| I've also been fully remote for 20 years now, and it just
| gets easier/better all the time...
| jelling wrote:
| For some hard data, in San Francisco and NYC, the mass transit
| agencies are starting to plan for never getting back to full
| ridership again. And by plan, I mean starting to ask for federal
| funding to keep the systems alive (which I think they should)
| because the fare revenue is never going to return to pre-pandemic
| levels but the physical plant remains just as expensive to
| operate.
|
| Keep in mind: these are two of the densest cities in the U.S.,
| where people typically have less space for a home office and
| commutes are shorter vs an exurb type city. WFH is here to stay
| in my view, especially for employers in competitive recruiting
| spaces.
| waylandsmithers wrote:
| Boston too is switching some lines permanently onto weekend
| schedules with less frequent trains
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| The MBTA did so because the FRA ordered them to after
| multiple incidents, including at least one death.
|
| They haven't been hiring dispatchers, and overworking the
| ones they do.
| ragnot wrote:
| Which ones? Personally curious.
| ghaff wrote:
| Red, Orange, and Blue apparently.
| https://www.wbur.org/news/2022/06/17/mbta-to-cut-weekday-
| tra...
|
| Anecdotally, I've gone into Boston a _few_ times this year.
| My observation when I 've driven in was that rush hour
| traffic was as bad as ever. But both the commuter rail and
| the subway were significantly less crowded than I would have
| expected.
|
| Of course, schedule cutbacks make public transit less
| appealing. The commuter rail I usually take if going in for a
| weekday cut all the express trains and seemingly spaced the
| trains generally in a less commuter-centric schedule so it's
| less attractive than it used to be at the margins.
| jedberg wrote:
| I've noticed interesting trends in the Bay Area. Up until about
| three weeks ago, traffic during rush hour was lighter than pre-
| pandemic. But about three weeks ago, traffic in the south bay
| (specifically 280N from 85 to 101) has returned to pre-pandemic
| levels.
|
| However, just last week I drove home from SF to Cupertino at
| 5pm and did it in 54 minutes (which is basically $min_time).
| Pre-pandemic that drive would have been 90+ minutes.
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| > commutes are shorter vs an exurb type
|
| I'm not sure about that. People i know in NYC typically spend
| as much time commuting as in any other city I've known, if not
| more. It's a big city, and because of the nature of public
| transportation (or traffic) it takes a while to move across it.
|
| NYC is also, of course, a place where _office space_ is more
| expensive than most other places -- employer choices could be
| effecting this as much as employee choices.
|
| But I don't disagree with your general conclusion, as a general
| sense of things. I don't think NYC and San Francisco are the
| especially driving examples though.
| ketzo wrote:
| This doesn't quite answer your trend, but personal anecdote:
|
| I recently switched jobs, and as part of my job interview
| process, I was pretty firm about only looking for companies that
| were working at least part of the week in the office. I just
| really thrive on in-person work.
|
| Fast forward a few weeks... and I ended up taking a job with a
| startup that was fully remote. I loved their product, loved the
| founders, loved the team I had met; I figured I would make it
| work.
|
| Two months in and I have hardly noticed that I'm not working in
| person. There's just such a huge difference when you're working
| at BigCo remotely and working at an eight-person startup.
| Particularly at my company, people just really _give a shit_ and
| it shows. I feel genuinely connected to and engaged with my
| teammates. Makes remote work a lot better.
| gkop wrote:
| I'm happy for you!
|
| Out of curiosity, did your current housing situation provide
| the space for a comfortable and productive home office, or is
| this unexpected development putting pressure on your housing
| situation? (If you're part of a trend, that has implications
| for preferred housing layout and square footage. And, of course
| people in different housing situations should be expected to
| respond differently to fully-remote opportunities..)
|
| (FWIW I'm single in a 600 sq ft apartment. I'm also a manager.
| My workspace needs for desk layout, equipment, and quiet are
| minimal compared to individual contributors, but I sometimes
| think of the perceived status implications when my humble abode
| appears on video, though I've reflected and don't really
| care..)
|
| Edit to add regarding status implications: believe it or not, a
| candidate I was interviewing actually blurted out "You're a
| manager in tech! How come you don't have a nicer house?". That
| got into my head briefly, until I decided that I don't care.
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| I've been remote since I graduated from college about 17
| years ago, and I didn't get a dedicated office until 8 years
| ago. Before then my computer desk was in my bedroom.
| Sometimes a rather small bedroom.
| nine_k wrote:
| > _my humble abode appears on video_
|
| Isn't blurring the background, or using a virtual background,
| nearly universal now? (Around me, it is.)
| gkop wrote:
| It's fairly popular in my organization yes, but too much
| trouble for me until/unless Google Meet supports it in
| Firefox.
| harrydehal wrote:
| Looks like it's supported in Google Meets (as well as
| Zoom):
|
| https://support.google.com/meet/answer/10058482?hl=en&co=
| GEN...
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| I've worked remote for a long time. It's very common to see
| people working from their home bedrooms.
|
| First-time remote workers will often overthink their office,
| but seasoned remote workers don't really care. It's worth
| taking a minute to tidy up the room in your background, but
| nobody is going to be judging you for not having a dedicated
| home office.
|
| > I'm also a manager. My workspace needs for desk layout,
| equipment, and quiet are minimal compared to individual
| contributors
|
| At least in software, the space needs for everyone are fairly
| minimal. There are some creative solutions for monitor arms
| that can reduce the not-in-use footprint of a desk even
| further.
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| Oh, I wouldn't think anyone would judge me, especially
| these days (plus there's blurred backgrounds etc).
|
| But a separate room I use for work helps me keep work
| separate from personal life when working from home. If I
| didn't have/couldn't afford that, I'd at least have a
| separate desk I use only for work. If not that either... it
| would be harder for me.
| swader999 wrote:
| They'll judge you poorly for spotty or slow internet on
| calls more than the background of your home office.
| ghaff wrote:
| >They'll judge you poorly for spotty or slow internet on
| calls
|
| Of course, realize that there's a good chance there's
| nothing they can do about that.
| swader999 wrote:
| Trying different providers and even different routers
| helped me. Wi-Fi is less reliable generally.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| For most US residences, there is at most 1 wired
| broadband provider to the house (coaxial cable), and they
| provide an unspecified anemic upload bandwidth.
| ghaff wrote:
| Many of us don't have a choice of different providers.
| And while I agree that WiFi in particular may not be as
| good as a wired connection, many people also don't have
| an Ethernet jack near where they work at home. (I do
| personally next to where I take my calls.)
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| I've actually had good luck with an "ethernet over power"
| device in my WFH setup.
|
| eg https://www.amazon.com/Powerline-Ethernet-Adapter-
| Extender-T...
|
| but in general, yes, I agree, I have had problems with
| network connectivity in my WFH setup that are very
| difficult to do something about, and which are very
| frustrating to all involved, it is a problem.
| chasd00 wrote:
| Also, most video chat apps have filters where you can make
| your background look like a couple of different options. A
| standard, clean, organized home office being one.
| biomcgary wrote:
| Although filters have gotten better (more precise, faster
| responding to movement), I still don't like them for
| cutting off hands or things I hold up for the camera to
| see. So, I hang a curtain behind me, since I don't have a
| wall.
| xur17 wrote:
| Yeah, I tend to agree. And tbh I kind of like the glimpse
| into a person's life that a non-filtered background gives
| (in much the same way that idle chit chat helps me
| "connect" with a coworker).
| drakonka wrote:
| I live in a 48sqm apartment and never even thought about
| this. I work usually either from my little desk and kneeling
| chair in my bedroom or my couch. My remote coworkers at
| different levels have all kinds of stuff in their backgrounds
| - pets, kids, books, walls, posters, clutter, paintings, and
| thinking back I have not once found myself judging them
| negatively _or_ positively for it. A candidate judging your
| house in an interview seems super awkward - for the
| candidate. What a weird thing to comment on.
| GenerocUsername wrote:
| I judge people who still live in tiny apartments in
| downtown cores after 2 years of lockdowns and remote work.
| I don't want coworkers who are so stalwarts they stick with
| a bad plan for years. Get out of the city.
| drakonka wrote:
| I don't think you need to worry - those people probably
| don't want a presumptuous grump judging their living
| choices as a coworker either :)
| peppermint_tea wrote:
| i'll be enjoying my city life, thanks :)
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| I live in the city because I love living in a city. So
| many things to do, not needing to own a car (I hate
| driving).
|
| Not everyone's preferences are the same.
| goodpoint wrote:
| > perceived status implications when my humble abode appears
|
| I would rather focus on the quality of someone's work than
| "status".
|
| Also, you can't find a "neutral" wall or window in 600sq?!
| bobthepanda wrote:
| At such square footage I would imagine most wall space is
| taken up by furniture.
|
| Window is kinda bad since direct light makes cameras bad.
| sofixa wrote:
| For reference 600 sq ft is 55.742 sq m, which is a decent
| appartement for a single person in Paris, or a couple
| without kids. I've been to numerous apartments of a
| similar size and you can easily find a neutral(-ish,
| there can be a bookcase(??) and it's still neutral) wall.
| dml2135 wrote:
| Living in NYC, I can't tell if by "status implications" you
| mean that a 600 sq ft apartment is swanky or cheap.
| gkop wrote:
| Ah, I meant cheap (in terms of apartment space and
| interior, not in terms of rent). I'm in a nice neighborhood
| in Oakland, CA fwiw.
| tessierashpool wrote:
| 600 sq ft in Oakland isn't _that_ far off from 600 sq ft
| in NYC at this point. it 's cheaper, but it's getting
| there.
|
| I've thought about moving back to the Bay, but I can get
| two to four times as much square feet at the same price,
| and I've been working mostly remote for almost 20 years.
| michaelbuckbee wrote:
| Good lighting, a decent (almost anything other than the
| built-in) webcam and using software blur on your background
| will give you a better setup than 90% of other folks for not
| that much money.
| ketzo wrote:
| I had been working from home for a year and a half already in
| a very comfortable WFH setup, and knew I would have one going
| forward.
|
| That, obviously, makes a huge difference: I didn't _need_ an
| office to work in, I just _wanted_ one.
| idiotsecant wrote:
| Can people really tell anything about your living situation
| from your teams call background, though? Just aim your camera
| at a neutral wall and you're good to go. You could be living
| in a giant palace or a inner city slum and nobody would know
| the difference.
| spoonjim wrote:
| The marker of low socioeconomic status in a remote
| environment is disruptions to your video call. Kids crying,
| people walking through your background, people yelling,
| neighborhood dogs barking, etc. is something that doesn't
| get into your call when you're rich.
| chasd00 wrote:
| Mostly right except for kids. All up and down the org
| chart at my firm there's been interruptions by children
| haha. Also, sometimes things just happen no matter who
| you are. There was a US Supreme Court hearing over video
| chat and someone on the call flushed a toilet.
|
| https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/05/06/politics/toilet-flush-
| sup...
| spoonjim wrote:
| Sure, but the richer you are the less it happens, because
| you have staff to take care of kids, etc. Although I have
| noticed that kids appear on camera at the most senior and
| junior levels of the company. If I am working with an
| low-level assistant to get something done she might have
| a kid pop on camera and she's super embarrassed about it.
| If the CFO has his kid wander into the room in an all
| hands he picks her up and shows her off on camera. You'd
| like to think that this could normalize it for the
| assistant but that's of course not how power works.
| gkop wrote:
| Heh, a neutral wall in my 600 sq ft place? I have such
| limited layout options to put my desk, that would be an
| _additional_ challenging constraint.
|
| Virtual backgrounds are popular in my workspace, and I
| think a more general solution to the issue. I'm not a huge
| fan of virtual backgrounds, they make things _even more_
| artificial, anyhow I would use them occasionally but for
| the fact that Google Meet does not support them in Firefox.
| nicoburns wrote:
| A simple blur can be a good compromise if you want to
| hide your room. Although personally I just make sure it's
| tidy and allow people to see it.
| gkop wrote:
| Yep, simple blur seems most classy, thanks for mentioning
| that as it wasn't directly implied by "virtual
| background". To be clear, Google Meet does not support a
| simple blur on Firefox. (I could use a virtual camera,
| but as I mentioned in another comment.. I don't care
| enough)
| iso1631 wrote:
| If you're concerned just get a roll up picture or
| greenscreen for your background
| ghaff wrote:
| Yeah, I have my office pretty well arranged as a "set"
| but I do have some very utilitarian metal file cabinets
| behind me. I was mulling making furniture changes but
| ended up just draping a fabric hanging over the cabinets
| from a curtain rod. Take about 30 seconds if I need to
| get into the cabinets for some reason.
|
| I care less about meetings but I also shoot some video so
| needed some sort of decent setting anyway.
| fatnoah wrote:
| I recently left a large tech company. It was very obvious
| who was "higher up" in the food chain, as the home offices
| of Director+ level folks were generally larger and much
| more nicely decorated. At VP-level, they almost resembled
| super-villain lairs.
| chasd00 wrote:
| Yes, at my firm one has a very extensive library behind
| them complete with ladders and everything.
| fatnoah wrote:
| I'm not OP, but I'm a manager that's 100% WFH at this point.
| I had a spare bedroom to devote to the workspace, and that's
| been a lifesaver, since (for me) part of maintaining WLB has
| been the ability to physically change spaces as a way of
| reinforcing that I'm no longer in "work mode" before/after
| certain times. Even without a separate room, having a
| dedicated work area might be a good idea to help with that
| balance if that's a problem for you.
| gkop wrote:
| Yep, I look forward to upgrading my housing at some point,
| for these great reasons and more..
| cupofpython wrote:
| Buy a smart bulb for your WFH desk. Pick a color
| (example: bright white) that you only use when you are
| working. you might not notice anything at first, but
| after a while it really helps with shifting your
| mentality into or out of work mode very quickly. Very
| helpful at the start of a busy day, or the end of a rough
| day.
|
| Source: I did WFH for about 2 years before the pandemic
| in a 1 bedroom apartment that I shared with someone
| cableshaft wrote:
| Great idea. I double up my office space for work and for
| personal projects / hobbies outside of work (same desk
| and chair, different computers), but didn't consider
| having a dedicated colored light for it.
|
| I think I'll leave normal lighting for work, but then do
| a more playful color for hobbies, like purple or blue or
| red or something. I already have the light even, I just
| haven't been using it.
| dgunay wrote:
| I did this for sleep hygiene reasons because my office is
| windowless (the light goes from cool, to warm, to red as
| the night goes on) and as a side effect I stopped working
| so late because it was easier to notice "hey, it's 6 pm,
| I should probably stop for the day".
| fatnoah wrote:
| I had a very similar experience when looking for roles in the
| fall. I explicitly wanted to makes sure there was an office to
| go to and ended up (via a personal) connection, applying for a
| fully remote role where there was a local office I could work
| from if I felt the need.
|
| Seven months later, I've gone to the office a total of 4 times,
| and two of those were because I had other appointments/errands
| nearby that day. I've surprised myself at how much I didn't
| miss the office environment.
| alexk307 wrote:
| I have had the same experience! Remote work at a big company is
| miserable
| ragnot wrote:
| We are still full remote and I don't think anyone has any
| intention to go back to "in-person" honestly.
|
| As a side note: I think the reason you are going to find so much
| friction with this is for the first time in recent history
| "workers" (specifically software engineers) have incredible
| leverage over management. I honestly don't think we've seen this
| since the days of labor unions.
|
| Think about it: software engineers have such an in-demand,
| ubiquitous skillset that they can command huge salaries, get
| incredible perks AND now they can say "I don't want to be
| constrained to a location". Don't like your job? Don't worry
| about it, get a pay raise and you don't even have to change your
| office (because it's your bedroom/study/den/whatever). Boss is
| being a dick? Move and get a raise. Don't like co-workers who
| talk to much? You don't even have a water cooler to gossip
| around!
|
| Software engineers have so much power now it's ridiculous and it
| honestly pisses off a lot of people who spent their entire lives
| brown-nosing and grinding only to have a young hotshot come in
| and earn more than they ever did at their age. I mean if I could
| get $5 for the number of times I've had older people tell me that
| I'm being too greedy for demanding SWE comps because "I never
| earned that much at your age" I could buy a really nice house in
| the Bay Area.
| ajcp wrote:
| I wonder if that makes it the best time for software engineers
| to form a union? I think the conventional wisdom is that unions
| are formed to benefit those without power otherwise, but would
| it make sense to unionize to maximize an already outsized
| position? Would that thereby ensure (to an extent) those
| proceeds for when a bargaining position might not be as
| powerful? The Icelandic press industry (I know, just hang in
| there with me) had a couple of amazing years in the 80s that
| the journalist(?) unions used as an opportunity to lock down
| some really progressive benefits that they still exercise
| today.
| msmenardi wrote:
| Check out "No Shortcuts" by Jane McAlevey. Great book about
| creating a tech union, and it gives background on how other
| industries did it (and often where they went wrong)
| ajcp wrote:
| Excellent, thanks so much!
| alldayeveryday wrote:
| In a similar position - we went fully remote and have stayed
| that way. I do sense from the c-suite that they would love to
| get people back into office - I think driven more than anything
| by distrust of their workforce.
|
| Re: engineers having leverage I am keen to see if this changes
| in the coming months. With so many layoffs will come more
| competition for each open role. Do we hit a point where there
| are more unemployed software engineers VS open engineering
| roles? Time will tell. If we do hit that point employers may go
| back to having leverage to dictate office.
|
| As an aside, I really dislike recruiters who deceive you during
| recruiting. Both my wife and I have had recruiters tell us a
| company was allowing fully remote or hybrid, just to find out
| the actual policy is 3,4 days a week in office.
| cehrlich wrote:
| I'm currently looking for a job, and in my experience everything
| is at least hybrid, and a lot of places are full remote. I've not
| interviewed with a single full on-site company so far. Remote-
| first companies, if they have a good process in place, can have a
| huge advantage in terms of access to talent.
|
| Personally I enjoy being in the office 2-3 days a week as long as
| the commute isn't too bad, but I'm seriously considering going
| full remote as it opens up a lot of life possibilities.
| paxys wrote:
| My large FAANG-equivalent company has been trying to mandate
| return to work for months now, but employees simply ignore them.
| After 2+ years it's hard to believe things will ever return to
| "normal".
| canyonero wrote:
| My experience as an engineer with ~10 years of experience (4 of
| which working remotely):
|
| I've seen no data that'd indicate a meaningful shift yet. I've
| also seen no shifts from recruiters reaching out to me about in-
| person roles. All recruiters reaching out highlight that the
| positions they're looking to fill are fully remote. (I receive
| anywhere from two to ten outreach messages per day)
|
| That said, my experience doesn't mean that there isn't or won't
| be a shift, but I haven't found or observed any evidence yet. I
| believe there is still an abundance of work for engineers wanting
| to work remotely right now. The remote opportunities are far, far
| better than any time previous to 2020.
| closeparen wrote:
| My office has allegedly gone hybrid since April but very few
| people are coming in regularly. The boss has been 3 or 4 times.
| upupandup wrote:
| I just don't understand why some people are so keen on making in-
| person or hybrid work, it won't in the long run because you are
| competing with companies that doesn't have the overhead of an
| office, HR, logistics etc. This is the _new normal_ , you either
| accept it or keep trying to go back to what will never be going
| forward.
|
| I also don't really believe people claiming they are losing
| productivity in WFH, its most likely that they were never
| productive to begin with and its becoming magnified.
|
| The latter group often expresses it emotional terms like : not
| having human interactions, missing out on watercooler talks,
| acknowledgement. Perhaps these emotions are being surfaced
| because there is nothing to hide behind anymore.
| acuozzo wrote:
| I am in favor of each employee working within the environment
| in which they are most productive.
|
| With that being said, I am one of the most productive members
| of my team and I am completely unable to WFH.
|
| I hate meetings. I don't often engage in water-cooler chat. I
| wish I had the option to occupy an office full-time. I am an
| introvert.
|
| Being at home simultaneously relaxes me and stresses me out
| since it constantly reminds me of chores and home maintenance
| tasks that need to get done. Furthermore, my three young
| children seem to be constantly starved for my attention, so
| hiding behind a closed door leads to many disruptions and
| tears.
|
| Hell, I'm not even able to WFH on non-work-related tasks I
| enjoy!
| wollsmoth wrote:
| I think it varies by person. I'm remote but still go in to the
| office from time to time and a lot of times the days I go in
| are my most productive days. But I know it's not the same for
| everyone.
| dleslie wrote:
| > I also don't really believe people claiming they are losing
| productivity in WFH, its most likely that they were never
| productive to begin with and its becoming magnified.
|
| Often such comments frame their productivity in terms of
| impromptu discussions, or over-staffed meetings. I suspect
| they're the sort of people who feel jointly productive so long
| as they're engaged with the productive people during the
| process. Y'know, the sort destined for middle management. ;)
| acuozzo wrote:
| ... or the sort of people with young kids.
| labratmatt wrote:
| The company I work for seems to be trending toward remote. It
| feels like a bad trend to me - quality of work is lower.
| Creativity is lower.
|
| Put me in a room with a few other folks, some whiteboards and
| some laptops and magic happens. Hanging around the house and
| chatting on zoom+slack is boring, pathetic and produces no magic.
| atemerev wrote:
| I am a Scala software engineer currently looking for a new
| position. Nobody is offering remote, and two of the prospects
| explicitly told me that remote is no longer allowed.
| cnj wrote:
| We at commercetools have remote Scala roles open both in Europe
| and the US (EST timezone only, though):
| https://commercetools.com/careers/jobs
| jka wrote:
| It'd be useful to validate against multiple data sources, but
| Google Trends does seem to show a noticeable ongoing and
| increasing interest in remote work:
|
| https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?cat=60&date=all&q=r...
|
| Edit: filtered link to category "Jobs"
| dogman144 wrote:
| If your in cybersecurity, specifically some form of security
| engineering, it went and stayed remote after 2020. Thank you
| SOLARWINDS I guess. Caveat is this most applies to engineers in
| Sec, as knows how to cloud and code.
| as1992 wrote:
| Based on my own experience as a SWE (Working with a previous
| company up until May 2022, job searching from Feb 2022 , and now
| at a new company)
|
| The vast majority of companies are willing to hire remote, but a
| lot only within locations they have the legal means to do so (eg.
| Legal entity, contract with Deel or other company). It seemed
| during 2020/early 2021 people were saying it was going to be a
| "global job market", which in my understanding meant you could
| get a job in any country in the world, easy.
|
| While it's true in my experience you can get a job in any country
| in the world, it's not that easy. A lot of companies do not want
| to hire outside areas they have a legal entity in, Eg. a company
| has an office in Paris, they'll hire remotely anywhere in France,
| but good luck if you're based in Spain.
|
| Companies that will hire most anywhere are far and few between,
| and generally from what I've seen are smaller, startup/small
| business sized companies.
|
| Take the above with a pinch of salt as that is purely my own
| experience, and could be bias based on what I was looking for.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| "global job market" generally means contract labor, not direct
| hired employees
|
| Either individually contract, or via a 3rd party firm like
| Tata, or Infosys
| Tainnor wrote:
| I switched jobs recently and when I was looking, it was
| definitely the case that remote work was advertised as a perk.
|
| I'm not particularly fond of wfh, and prefer a vibrant office
| setting, but I realised that I would have a hard time finding a
| place where in-person work would be the norm. So now I settled
| for a job where there is still an office, but most developers
| never go (my boss is at least there 1-2 times a week). I also
| don't go every day (it's a bit far), and since not a lot of
| people are there maybe I'll go even less, although I do find that
| I can work better from there.
|
| It's not ideal, but for now I'm trying to make it work. I
| certainly like the flexibility and I don't think anyone would
| want to go back to a fully Mo-Fri in the office kind of setup (me
| neither), but I do wonder if we'll see a reverse of the trend in
| a couple of years where a nice office and a good in-person
| atmosphere will be advertised as a perk, too.
|
| We'll see. 2 years of pandemic is not necessarily enough for
| everyone to make up their minds on their preferred mode of
| working. And while I know that "wfh or I'll quit" kind of people
| are very vocal, I also know a number of people who enjoy going to
| the office regularly. Ideally, in some years, wfh people will
| apply to wfh companies and in-person people will apply to in-
| person companies (with some flexibility around wfh, of course),
| and everyone can find something that works for them.
| pram wrote:
| I'm in the interview loop with two places atm (one is Google) and
| they're both remote. Last time I was frantically looking hard in
| 2019 I couldn't find any remote positions, so it's still a lot
| easier from my pov.
|
| Also I've found that submitting job applications through
| LinkedIn's 'easy apply' thing is rarely successful. It doesn't
| seem like recruiters often check that. I've had the most replies
| from going through the company job posting websites. I know it's
| a pain in the ass but _shrug_
| _fat_santa wrote:
| Personally I never use easy apply or go through websites, I
| always talk to a recruiter on LinkedIn. Usually I'll get 1-2
| messages per week from recruiters about a position, I'll
| politely decline but tell them I would like to keep in touch.
|
| Whenever I go looking for another gig, all those recruiters are
| hit up. IMO, having a recruiter helps you cut through a ton of
| BS like filling out job applications, recruiter takes care of
| all that for you.
| Uptrenda wrote:
| My experience with recruiters has always been negative. Do
| you mean internal recruiters or external ones?
| autarch wrote:
| I was recently looking for a new position and I found
| internal recruiters were quite useful. My experience with
| external recruiters was mixed, though at least a couple did
| get me interviews at places that seemed decent.
| wollsmoth wrote:
| Most external recruiters aren't that useful in my
| experience. Unless they happen to have a client you want to
| connect with at the time you are looking. Internal
| recruiters have helped speed me through the process in many
| cases though, so those are worth connecting with imo.
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| Internal recruiters are pretty useful.
|
| External recruiters are generally pretty bad and will never
| get you the best rate you can get. Also you'll be able to
| negotiate more if your client doesn't have to pay 20% of your
| annual salary to the recruiter as a finder fee.
| theonething wrote:
| Man, I ignore all the recruiters that contact me. It's just
| too many. Not humble bragging, it's just the reality. And not
| trying to rude. I have trouble keeping up with my personal
| emails, much less random recruiters on the internet. I hope
| it doesn't come back to bite me.
|
| So far in my career (10+ years), I've just applied to company
| job postings and that's worked out pretty well for me.
| kypro wrote:
| Recruiters probably won't hold a grudge against you if
| you're a highly skilled engineer that they know they can
| place easily. Fortunately for us there's just not enough
| skilled engineers for recruiters to be too picky. That
| said, I personally try to keep good relationships with
| recruiters because as a contractor because it can be useful
| when looking for my next job.
|
| If you're a junior dev or working in a highly competitive
| industry though I would be much more careful not to upset
| recruiters too much. Not that you won't be able to get
| work, but you'll be making things considerably harder for
| yourself.
|
| Recruiters don't expect you to reply to their emails btw -
| unless you're interested in the role they're recruiting for
| of course. I think it's polite to answer the phone if they
| call though. Normally it takes about 30 seconds to tell
| them you're not on the market, but will but will be in
| touch when you are. I think a lot of people can be quite
| rude to recruiters and they seem to appreciate the fact I'm
| polite to them and happy to have a quick chat.
| iso1631 wrote:
| The worst is a recruiter promising a "highly competitive
| salary" in a company that's "one of your competitors"
| that wants "your specific skills"
|
| It feels like nine times out of ten "one of your
| competitors" means they are also a limited liability
| company, "your specific skills" means you know what a
| keyboard is, and "highly competitve salary" is $30k a
| year.
|
| I have a very particular set of skills that I have
| acquired over a long career which are honed to a very
| narrow industry. I did have a genuine recruiter after me
| for a job which used a small subset of those skills, on
| 20% more than than I currently earn, but it was a second
| line support position rather than the various roles I
| play today. I couldn't face the prospect of working in
| such a confined environment.
| boppo1 wrote:
| How do you go looking for recruiters?
| klodolph wrote:
| Recruiters for tech position generate leads from various
| sources like Linked In, GitHub, Stack Overflow, etc. If
| you're in a software engineering position, it's common for
| recruiters to contact you.
|
| If you don't want to switch jobs right now, just reply to
| the recruiters that contact you and say "I'm happy with my
| current position." or something similar--short, to the
| point, professional, not dismissive.
|
| The recruiter will keep your email in the system and follow
| up later. (Sometimes they'll follow up immediately, you can
| safely ignore immediate followups without explanation.) You
| can also follow up later and say that you're now
| interested.
|
| You should also know the difference between internal and
| external recruiters. Internal recruiters tend to be easier
| to work with just because their incentives are more likely
| to be aligned with the company that they are hiring with--
| so if you have some recruiter emails saved in your inbox,
| start by contacting internal recruiters for companies that
| you would consider working for.
| rnk wrote:
| You could just put "open to opportunities" on your linked
| in. I always wondered if that would hurt at my last job,
| now I just leave it on all the time.
| IshKebab wrote:
| Just make a LinkedIn profile and you'll start getting job
| adverts from recruiters. Not always relevant but they often
| are.
| xeromal wrote:
| I just save ones that write reasonable emails to me. You
| can definitely get a feel if they're worth your time or not
| depending on how they phrase their email to you.
| yboris wrote:
| I've been at Forbes for 5 years now. 2 years ago we went 100%
| remote; we're still committed to 100% remote. Many job listings
| still showing: https://boards.greenhouse.io/forbes/
|
| Unsure how it is out there - I've not jumped jobs because it's
| been great here so far.
| LesterTheMolest wrote:
| looking pretty good papa
| zxexz wrote:
| My company maintains an office, which some people local go in
| once or twice a week. But it's 100% remote-first, and everybody
| (including leadership) has no desire to go back to "in-person-
| first". The remote shift was a major boon to hiring - being able
| to recruit talent from all over the US.
| milosmns wrote:
| Berlin: most companies I know of are hybrid.
|
| As a community organizer, I talk to a lot of people - nobody said
| that their management is forcing anything yet. My own experience
| is that management doesn't care in most situations, as long as
| the work gets done. And it does right now.
|
| Reading online about it, I feel like most of the people who
| complain about this problem are in the USA, and that there's some
| kind of struggle between employees and their managers. Never felt
| this in my career so far, so can't really relate...
| [deleted]
| fbrncci wrote:
| I interviewed a lot this year; the amount is probably between
| 50-75, with at least 15 take homes (all 100% remote jobs). The
| great majority of those came from LinkedIn recruiters, and that
| all sucked, I got three offers which I declined because they
| weren't great. In the end, what got me a new job was my blog and
| the branding I have on Twitter. At some point my posts where
| getting traction, and companies started reaching out to me. It
| got me a job without even interviewing. If it wasn't for that, I
| would probably still be interviewing with recruiters on LinkedIn.
| Yhippa wrote:
| For some reason, I have in my mind September when we're going to
| see a lot more RTO of at least 3 days a week.
|
| Also in my mind, companies that are either smaller or have a good
| idea of what they need their people to do are the ones that are
| going to be able to thrive and provide full-remote work.
|
| BigCo's are probably going to continue to push for in-person as
| they are unable to determine what they need from their people so
| they will substitute face time and meetings to make themselves
| feel like progress is made.
|
| Random thought: for me, hybrid work as a mostly-remote person was
| hardest when you had more than one person in a meeting room and
| the rest were remote.
| dleslie wrote:
| BigCos need to justify the expenditure of maintaining an
| office, and the office culture that goes with it: all those
| over staffed meetings, the HR and management roles that exist
| primarily to facilitate in-office culture, the facilities staff
| and so forth.
|
| A non trivial amount of BigCo roles and expenses are simply
| unnecessary when the physical office no longer exists.
|
| And all those people in those roles will advocate strongly for
| in office work in order to defend their jobs.
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| I think there's a lot of sunk cost fallacy going on with
| BigCos that spent a lot of money on building their own office
| buildings.
| Fezzik wrote:
| I work for a large State agency, the last type of employer I ever
| thought would be flexible, and for all staff --
| support/secretarial, managerial, and attorneys -- we are on a
| permanent (optional) hybrid model. Non-attorney staff can opt for
| a minimum of 1 day/week WFH, with the highest "ranking" able to
| do 3 days/week WFH. Some attorneys have worked out more WFH days
| but most of us are in the office 5 days a week now that we can
| be.
|
| Not that it relates directly to tech jobs, but now that a work-
| from-home model has proven to be functional it seems like it
| should become more and more prevalent across the board.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I am curious what the price premium distributions will be for
| in office vs remote work.
|
| Driving 1 minute in the US costs at least $0.60 in nominal
| dollars, and including non monetary costs/benefits, I can
| imagine it being quite a difference, more noticeable for lower
| paying jobs.
| bityard wrote:
| At the beginning of the pandemic, the CEO of our company was very
| adamant about working from home being a temporary situation, with
| all of the usual explanations.
|
| Although I still have to go into the office occasionally to
| things that can't be done remotely, midway through the pandemic I
| had decided that I am going to work from home as much as I like
| from now on. And if this company doesn't let me, I'll switch
| jobs.
|
| Earlier in this year, the CEO set a "back to the office" date of
| June 13th. I've been in occasionally since then and it's still
| basically a ghost town. So apparently most of my co-workers have
| the same idea as me.
| zelphirkalt wrote:
| In Europe here. Still working remotely. Saves me tons of time. We
| get our stuff done. Recently had a few days office work, which
| was OK for a workshop, but I wouldn't want to have it every day
| or even most days of the week, because of the loss of time.
|
| There is a voluntary office day now and I'll try to make it work.
| I hope it stays voluntary and does not become mandatory.
| rebeccaskinner wrote:
| My guess is that the current market conditions will accelerate
| the market toward whatever the new normal will be. Companies that
| hated having to give into demands for remote work will use this
| as leverage to get people back into the office. Companies that
| were going to look at remote work as a way to save costs (either
| by hiring from cheaper regions, saving on real estate costs, or
| both) will be pushed into those decisions sooner, and companies
| that were remote first, or on a path to it, in order to get the
| best talent will be pushed to improving their remote work
| processes so they can be as efficient as possible.
|
| I'm not going to try to make a bet on where the lines will get
| drawn between remote and in person, but I expect hybrid work will
| become less common since it often ends up being then worst of all
| worlds (you pay for office space, limit your hiring pool, and
| decrease worker efficiency by encouraging repeated Covid exposure
| leading to both more short term leave due to sick employees and
| less effective employees in the long run due to long Covid, but
| you still have many of the organizational, communication and
| infrastructure challenges of a remote team)
| timr wrote:
| > decrease worker efficiency by encouraging repeated Covid
| exposure leading to both more short term leave due to sick
| employees and less effective employees in the long run due to
| long Covid
|
| PSA: this is wild speculation. There's no definition of what
| "long covid" is, and there's certainly no evidence that it is
| made worse by getting Covid more than once. If anything, the
| opposite is true: we know that repeat infections lead to fewer
| symptoms and milder illness.
|
| Regardless, Covid is an endemic cold virus now, along with the
| other four circulating coronaviruses. It isn't going away.
| Everyone is going to get it multiple times in their lives,
| whether or not they work remote or in person.
| Tainnor wrote:
| Regardless of your feelings and convictions around it, covid
| and its effects on the workforce are definitely something
| that many managers think a lot about, so even if what you
| said were true, it still wouldn't change corporate responses
| at least in the short to medium term.
| terminatornet wrote:
| https://www.transtats.bts.gov/homedrillchart.asp 59,033 and
| 34,793 flights cancelled in 2019 and 2018 respectively
| according to the US department of transporation.
|
| In 2022, we're already at 76,776 flights cancelled and not
| even halfway through the year, so nearly the amount cancelled
| in 2018 and 2019 combined. I'm curious if there's anything
| different that's happening this year vs those other two that
| would account for such a stark increase in cancelled flights,
| likely due to an impacted labor force. Probably just people
| out with colds.
| timr wrote:
| > Probably just people out with colds.
|
| That's a leap. My understanding is that airlines are
| affected by the same thing every other employer is seeing
| -- they can't hire. It might be exacerbated by the fact
| that airlines reduced/eliminated their training pipeline.
| For example:
|
| https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/15/us-pilot-shortage-forces-
| air...
|
| > The pandemic exacerbated a pilot shortage by slowing down
| training, hiring and creating a wave of early retirements.
|
| > Airlines offered pilots early retirements to cut labor
| bills during the depths of the pandemic.
|
| > The process to become airline-qualified in the U.S. is
| lengthy and expensive, making the barrier to entry high.
| rebeccaskinner wrote:
| You are (mostly) wrong. The definitions of long Covid are
| indeed a bit inconsistent for now, but there's evidence that
| both repeated infections do tend to be worse with the omicron
| variants (possibly due to t-cell exhaustion but I'm not sure
| if that's the only factor), and that repeat exposures are at
| least not protective against long Covid (this isn't settled
| science yet, and there are a lot of confounding variables,
| but the recent studies I've seen seem to put the risk of long
| Covid at somewhere between 5% and 30% each time you are
| infected). To the extent that there are good consistent
| definitions of long Covid, they tend to agree that
| neurological symptoms- including brain fog and reduced
| cognition, are frequent (not a majority, but still common)
| symptoms associated with long Covid. Looking at cognitive
| effects in particular, some UK studies estimate that the
| impact is actually quite a lot higher than is reported, and
| is common even in people with asymptomatic or very mild
| initial symptoms. I've seen at least one estimate that puts
| the impact of an asymptomatic Covid infection on the brain as
| being equivalent to 10 years of normal aging.
|
| The cognitive effects don't seem to be entirely evenly
| distributed- the impact is bigger on older (40+) people, and
| I've heard (but not read the study) that people with ADHD are
| also much more likely to experience cognitive issues after
| covid.
|
| Covid is also not yet endemic. We are still in the pandemic
| phase- there is not yet a regular and predictable load of
| infections or a reasonable model for the evolutionary trend
| of variants. In any case, endemic does not mean not
| dangerous, it just means predictable and well understood.
|
| Calling it a cold virus is also just a rhetorical trick to
| downplay the severity. Yes, some colds are caused by other
| coronaviruses, but covid19 remains far more severe on average
| than any of the other common coronavirus infections that we
| lump in with common colds.
|
| Finally, it's probably true on our current trajectory that
| most people will be infected multiple times, even people that
| work from home. Given the evidence of compounding risks, it's
| still better to prevent whatever vectors of infection that
| you can. It also gives people more flexibility in their own
| risk tolerance. I'm still avoiding bars and restaurants, but
| many of my coworkers aren't. If we were in an office I'd be
| obliged to take on a much higher level of risk due to
| unavoidable exposure to higher risk people.
| the_doctah wrote:
| You lost me at "T-Cell exhaustion". If that were a thing,
| repeated boosters wouldn't really make sense, now would it?
| timr wrote:
| > You are (mostly) wrong. The definitions of long Covid are
| indeed a bit inconsistent for now,
|
| It's not a matter of "a bit inconsistent". There is no
| definition of "long covid". Literally anyone can claim they
| have it and not be wrong.
|
| > but there's evidence that both repeated infections do
| tend to be worse with the omicron variants (possibly due to
| t-cell exhaustion but I'm not sure if that's the only
| factor)
|
| No, there isn't, and "t-cell exhaustion" is not a thing.
| It's a phrase made up by pop scientists.
|
| > I've seen at least one estimate that puts the impact of
| an asymptomatic Covid infection on the brain as being
| equivalent to 10 years of normal aging.
|
| There are, sadly, a large number of irresponsible people
| making hysterical, pseudo-scientific claims with no data to
| back them up. This is a great example.
|
| Even if it were _possible_ to quantify "10 years of normal
| aging" on "the brain" (it isn't), the specific claim
| advanced here -- _asymptomatic_ infection leading to
| accelerated 'normal aging' -- is not backed by any
| evidence.
| rebeccaskinner wrote:
| > It's not a matter of "a bit inconsistent". There is no
| definition of "long covid". Literally anyone can claim
| they have it and not be wrong.
|
| Individual studies tend to look at different things, but
| most of the relevant studies give a particular
| definition. It generally involves symptoms 3,6, or 8
| months after an acute infection, and some studies further
| limit the definition to a particular set of symptoms.
| Most control for the occurrence of those symptoms in the
| general population too.
|
| > No, there isn't, and "t-cell exhaustion" is not a
| thing. It's a phrase made up by pop scientists.
|
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-019-0221-9
|
| https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-
| releases/2021/july/pe...
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34288064/
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7389156/
|
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41423-021-00750-4
| cheesewhizemacs wrote:
| At least a few of those links are in fact pop science
| articles like the grandparent complained they would be,
| and when you leave a bunch of links like this with no
| consideration for the discussion or explanation for lay
| people, it's basically gish gallop[0], which is an
| informal fallacy / rhetorical technique that generally
| underlies a bad faith argument.
|
| Anecdotally it's anti-science / conspiratorial types that
| tend to do these obscenely large link dumps with
| references to dense studies, and then pretend that
| they've read them all. I consider you and other
| proponents of the Long COVID theory to be in the same
| category; deploying gish gallop as a rhetorical tactic
| hurts your case more than it helps it, when encountered
| by skeptical people like me.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop
| timr wrote:
| All of these papers describe _different molecular
| mechanisms_ -- underscoring the fact that this is not an
| established phenomenon -- and most are trying to apply
| some level of rigor to a term that has no definition. The
| very first link makes it clear:
|
| > In this Viewpoint article, 18 experts in the field
| _tell us what exhaustion means to them_ , ranging from
| complete lack of effector function to altered
| functionality to prevent immunopathology, with potential
| differences between cancer and chronic infection.
|
| Also, the final link explicitly rebuts your claim:
|
| > However, because CD8+ T-cell exhaustion is not evident
| in patients with COVID-19, it is assumed that
| COVID-19-experienced individuals successfully develop
| functional CD8+ T-cell memory following vaccination.
| Recent studies have reported that a single dose of mRNA
| vaccine robustly induces spike-specific T-cell responses
| in COVID-19 convalescent individuals [131].
|
| > whether the differentiation state and transcriptional
| profiles of functionally impaired CD8+ T cells in
| respiratory viral infections are similar to those of
| exhausted T cells is not clear.
|
| > In addition, the differentiation dynamics of CD8+ T
| cells during the course of COVID-19, particularly whether
| SARS-CoV-2-specific CD8+ T cells become exhausted, remain
| enigmatic.
| slotrans wrote:
| I desperately want to work in an office again, but there are
| effectively no opportunities to do so. The companies doing in-
| office around here are outfits like Dish Network, that everyone
| knows are terrible employers.
|
| Like it or not, the software labor market is now nationwide, and
| remote is the rule rather than the exception. I don't know how
| long that will last, as I see very obvious negatives to remote
| for creative work, but for now that's how it is.
| exolymph wrote:
| Would coworking or being a regular at a cafe help?
| missedthecue wrote:
| Not for me. Coworking and cafes scratch the "I need to get
| out of my apartment" itch, but what I really value about in-
| person work is the collaboration and relationship-building
| with teammates that is not otherwise possible or easily
| achieved.
|
| I'm not sure if other people (particularly here on HN) can
| even relate to this, but working is a lot like everything
| else in life for me. I'd rather see my therapist in person
| than over Zoom. I would rather hang out with my friends than
| FaceTime them. And I would rather be in an office with people
| than Slacking and Zooming. I like being able to pull someone
| into a meeting room with a drawing board and explain ideas. I
| love small talk. These are things that are not easily
| replicable via telephony.
|
| Some companies do the 'one day per week in office", or "we
| have an office space you can use if you want to" but this
| doesn't solve my problem either. What I want only works if
| everyone else is cooperating. In the meantime, I have found
| that working remotely or alone in a big office building,
| which I do most days, is making me unhappy. But there just
| aren't any other options.
| waynenilsen wrote:
| i am never going back to the office
| willcipriano wrote:
| We are rapidly approaching 10% inflation and had similar numbers
| the previous two years. When inflation was 3% firms struggled to
| keep up with it. I see WFH as a inflation salary adjustment, this
| leaves me with high expectations for in person jobs that so far
| nobody has been able to meet.
| mathverse wrote:
| I interviewed with 3 companies all remote positions and have been
| ghosted by all 3 of them.
| digitalsushi wrote:
| were you referred by recruiters or did you come in the front
| door?
| mathverse wrote:
| Nope i applied through their sites. Did 2-4h long take home
| assignments and went through 3-4 rounds and then never heard
| again from them.
| avgDev wrote:
| Yes, please name them. This is terrible and you could save
| some readers time.
| mathverse wrote:
| I am not really comfortable doing that. Others may have a
| different experience than me. You never know which team /
| hr person you are going to interact with.
| aynyc wrote:
| name them.
| bityard wrote:
| That is extremely common, unfortunately, even before the
| pandemic.
| Uptrenda wrote:
| Don't take it personally. You should expect a large number of
| companies to ghost you. It's just part of the process. Keep
| going and believe in yourself.
| JasserInicide wrote:
| It's just ridiculous though. It's a shitty trend that's
| filtered down from social/dating applications. A decade ago,
| I always got a follow-up rejection email. Sometimes it took
| months from bigger companies but it still came. Today: more
| often than not you're just ghosted.
|
| Milliennials now being in positions of power are 100% to
| blame for this. They see no difference between the
| conversation with a job candidate and that of the girl you
| fucked last week.
| marcus_holmes wrote:
| I think it's more the trend of companies being scared of
| litigation. They can't be sued for discrimination if they
| never actually turned you down.
| willcipriano wrote:
| That's just an excuse for bad behavior. "We are going in
| another direction" isn't going to get you sued any more
| than radio silence will.
| akhmatova wrote:
| _You should expect a large number of companies to ghost you.
| It 's just part of the process._
|
| I would say no - it's not part of the "process". Every
| company swears they are against ghosting (and are "shocked"
| when it gets publicly exposed), but they all keep doing it
| anyway. It's a reflection of the cynical, emotionally
| immature nature of this industry.
| Uptrenda wrote:
| What's depressing as hell is when you first start searching
| for a job and you've put in a massive effort yet for like
| ~a week you get no responses. It really kills moral. But
| usually then all the replies come in a deluge and you
| wonder why you were ever worried to begin with. Job
| searching is a legit emotional roller coaster, lmaoo.
| akhmatova wrote:
| And the irony is -- they suddenly think you're "hot"
| because you're getting competing offers (or competing
| invites to do 7 or 8 rounds of culture fit interviews
| and/or LC grinding, in any case). Which is another way
| for them to say: "Actually we really don't know how to
| evaluate these candidates, so instead we rely on random
| externalities, like the number of other interviews
| they're having this particular week."
| Uptrenda wrote:
| Agreed. I also find it problematic that you have no
| control over the schedule of when the interviews start,
| when offers are made, how long companies might wait. E.g.
| if you have offers and you're still interviewing do you
| tell those companies to wait? If so - might they consider
| it a lack of interest? Possibly too much competition to
| waste further time on you with? Do you risk making them
| wait too long and rescinding an offer? idk... i wish
| there was a guide on how to handle this crap based on
| actual research. I've read from a recruiter not to
| indicate you have other offers at all because they're
| likely just to say to take them and not to proceed
| further. There are so many aspects of hiring that seem
| unknown.
| akhmatova wrote:
| You do have control, actually -- you can always say
| things like "Sorry, but the number of weeks / rounds does
| not seem to be in line with the TC being offered",
| knowing that this carries a moderate-to-high risk of
| rejection. Or if that is too blunt for your style -- you
| can always politiely excessive rounds of LC, interviews
| that start before 9 a.m. in your time zone, or (one of
| favorites) interviews with people who expect you to have
| _your_ camera on while they have theirs off.
|
| Or any of the other tokens of gratuitous unpleasantness,
| carelessness and plain one-sided-ness that these
| companies routinely rub in our faces, as if we're
| desperate to work for them.
|
| It just depends how much FY money you're sitting on at
| the moment. Like anything else in this industry.
| tarentel wrote:
| It really shouldn't be. It doesn't take long or much effort
| to send a quick boilerplate email saying they're not hiring
| you.
| spoonjim wrote:
| It shouldn't be, but it is. So the lesson when a company
| ghosts you shouldn't be one of personal insult (although
| it's hard to avoid that feeling), it should be "that
| company is poorly led and/or managed."
| mathverse wrote:
| It is especially bad cuz i sent a follow up email asking
| them about the status etc. no reply whatsoever
| mateo411 wrote:
| You probably don't want to work at a company that behaves
| that way.
| Clubber wrote:
| Yes, this has been going on since at least the early 2000s.
| It's really a dumb thing to do for the hiring company,
| particularly if there is more than a few days of contact.
| The person they want to hire just assumes they are being
| ghosted and immediately starts looking for additional
| opportunities, which equates to more competition for the
| hiring company.
|
| Had the original company stayed in contact, or it was
| common practice to stay in contact wether it's a hire or no
| hire, the hiring companies wouldn't have to deal with the
| extra competition created by no contact.
| Uptrenda wrote:
| There are still good tech jobs but hiring is down compared to its
| high. Whether its down compared to pre-covid times - can't say.
| What I will say however is: job search sucks no matter what the
| economy is doing. If you want to skip as much bs as humanly
| possible look for companies where its still possible to talk to
| the founders one on one and only apply if you've basically
| already done exactly what they need doing. Don't waste peoples
| time.
| jstx1 wrote:
| > look for companies where its still possible to talk to the
| founders one on one and only apply if you've basically already
| done exactly what they need doing
|
| This also means only working at small companies and never
| changing your problem domain or trying to work on something
| new. Doesn't sound that great.
| fleetwoodsnack wrote:
| Seems like the parent was optimizing for reducing
| bureaucratic BS or time-between-jobs, as opposed to career
| growth opportunities. They're both valid objectives, but you
| know the whole "judge a fish by it's ability to climb a tree"
| thing.
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