[HN Gopher] Wild turtles age slowly, and some basically don't ag...
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       Wild turtles age slowly, and some basically don't age at all
        
       Author : bryanrasmussen
       Score  : 214 points
       Date   : 2022-06-26 06:14 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.futurity.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.futurity.org)
        
       | rideontime wrote:
       | Rumor has it Peter Thiel is already pumping turtle blood into his
       | veins.
        
         | marban wrote:
         | And Tom Cruise already sampled it.
        
         | IncRnd wrote:
         | It's been confirmed, and an NFT of prehistoric turtle blood is
         | on the blockchain.
        
         | worik wrote:
         | Fake news.
         | 
         | Reptiles do not need another reptile's blood
        
       | platz wrote:
       | Planaria essentially have immortal bodies, excepting being
       | destroyed by environmental forces.
        
         | dghughes wrote:
         | Microscopic Hydra are even more impressive you can blend them
         | to a pulp and they'll just grow into more copies of Hydra
         | animals.
        
       | f6v wrote:
       | It's very interesting to know how they get protected against
       | tumors at such an old age.
        
       | hunglee2 wrote:
       | "It sounds dramatic to say that they don't age at all, but
       | basically their likelihood of dying does not change with age once
       | they're past reproduction,"
        
         | JoeAltmaier wrote:
         | Same with humans, to a degree. Actuarials place your chance of
         | dying at 50% after the age of 80. So we 'stop aging' after 80!
        
           | sethammons wrote:
           | to the downvoters:
           | https://www.science.org/content/article/once-you-hit-age-
           | agi...
           | 
           | At a certain point, humans appear to stop aging. Just it is
           | at 105, not 80 :)
        
           | pawelmurias wrote:
           | Wasn't this result largely cause by small sample size?
        
           | Someone wrote:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gompertz-
           | Makeham_law_of_mortal...:
           | 
           |  _"The Gompertz-Makeham law states that the human death rate
           | is the sum of an age-dependent component (the Gompertz
           | function, named after Benjamin Gompertz), which increases
           | exponentially with age and an age-independent component (the
           | Makeham term, named after William Makeham). In a protected
           | environment where external causes of death are rare
           | (laboratory conditions, low mortality countries, etc.), the
           | age-independent mortality component is often negligible. In
           | this case the formula simplifies to a Gompertz law of
           | mortality. In 1825, Benjamin Gompertz proposed an exponential
           | increase in death rates with age.
           | 
           | The Gompertz-Makeham law of mortality describes the age
           | dynamics of human mortality rather accurately in the age
           | window from about 30 to 80 years of age._
           | 
           | You probably remembered the first part of the sentence
           | following that:
           | 
           |  _"At more advanced ages, some studies have found that death
           | rates increase more slowly - a phenomenon known as the late-
           | life mortality deceleration - but more recent studies
           | disagree."_
           | 
           | Even if that were true (something wikipedia contests. See
           | also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-
           | life_mortality_decelerati...), that doesn't mean rate of
           | death decreases, just that it increases slower than this
           | model predicts.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | spython wrote:
           | 7156945704626380229481153372318653216558465734236575257710944
           | 5058227039255480148842668944867280814080000000000000000000 is
           | a good age to stop aging.
           | 
           | Sorry, couldn't miss a factorial joke.
        
             | RGamma wrote:
             | You could witness https://czep.net/weblog/52cards.html
             | 3748508088259971967302999598973478215811072000000 times
             | until then. Frankly, I'm terrified.
        
           | ddulaney wrote:
           | This is not true. Either that it's 50% at 80 or that it is
           | flat after 80. Here's an actuarial table:
           | https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html
           | 
           | Annual chance of dying is 5% at 80 and continues rising every
           | year (9% by 85, 16% by 90, 25% by 95, 35% by 100).
        
             | JoeAltmaier wrote:
             | I see that! The chart I recall is clearly very out of date.
             | Thanks!
        
           | andsoitis wrote:
           | Does this actuarial table support your claim that chance of
           | dying is stable at 50% after 80:
           | https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html
        
             | LeifCarrotson wrote:
             | No, not exactly. Your chance of dying at year 80, per that
             | table, is about 5% at 80, 15% at 90, and 30% at 100
             | (averaging for males and females). Not the same, and not
             | 50.
             | 
             | I think the observation they're trying to convey is that
             | your expected number of years remaining goes down by much
             | less than one year per year at those ages. A 90-year-old
             | can expect to live for another 4.5 years, but on their 91st
             | birthday, the chart surprisingly predicts not 3.5 but 4.2
             | years remaining. The number of expected years left drops
             | more than 0.95 years per year until age 20, 0.9 years per
             | year until age 40, down to 0.8 at 60, 0.5 at 80, and 0.1 at
             | 100.
        
               | bena wrote:
               | Quirks of statistics.
               | 
               | To have an average of 4.5, you need people to die before
               | and after the mark.
               | 
               | So a lot of people drop off between 91 and 92. But those
               | who make it to 92 have about 4.2 years remaining.
               | 
               | If you have a population of 100 people and 50 of them
               | will live less than 1 year, and 50 of them will live an
               | average of 10 years, that's 5.5 years on average for the
               | whole population. But if you check that same population
               | one year later, you will have 50 people who all live 9
               | years on average. You've managed to increase the average
               | by eliminating the bottom.
               | 
               | Same thing is happening here.
               | 
               | And it's probably similar to professional sports careers.
               | The average NFL career is about 3 years. However, if you
               | make to 3 years, your average career length is about 7
               | years.
               | 
               | We probably need more of a median or mode than a mean.
        
               | thaumasiotes wrote:
               | > I think the observation they're trying to convey is
               | that your expected number of years remaining goes down by
               | much less than one year per year at those ages.
               | 
               | But this is a necessary fact about everything. The
               | alternative would be that the expected complete lifespan
               | of an 81-year-old would be _less_ than the expected
               | complete lifespan of an 80-year-old, and that forms a
               | logical contradiction with the fact that, in order to
               | achieve that longer lifespan, the 80-year-old must become
               | an 81-year-old.
        
               | pmontra wrote:
               | The prediction is not surprising.
               | 
               | The set of people alive at age N has size Sn. Some of
               | them die. Some survive and form a new set of people alive
               | at age N+1 with size Sn+1. Sn+1 <= Sn.
               | 
               | If the expected number of remaining years at age N was Y,
               | death removed all the people that actually lived only 1
               | year or less, so the expected number of remaining years
               | for people of age N+1 must be greater than Y.
               | 
               | Life expectancy at birth is always lower than at any
               | other age.
               | 
               | Check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Rom
               | an_Empire
               | 
               | > When the high infant mortality rate is factored in
               | (life expectancy at birth) inhabitants of the Roman
               | Empire had a life expectancy at birth of about 22-33
               | years
               | 
               | > The 46-49% that survived to their mid-teens could, on
               | average, expect to reach around 48-54
        
               | thaumasiotes wrote:
               | > If the expected number of remaining years at age N was
               | Y, death removed all the people that actually lived only
               | 1 year or less, so the expected number of remaining years
               | for people of age N+1 must be greater than Y.
               | 
               | No, that is neither necessary nor true. It must be
               | greater than Y-1, not Y. Your way would mean that the
               | expected duration of a life was infinite.
        
             | jewayne wrote:
             | I love how, even for men, life expectancy doesn't fall
             | below one year until age 113.
        
               | candiodari wrote:
               | Well that happens because the ones who die get excluded
               | from the calculation. So it doesn't drop off nearly as
               | fast.
               | 
               | It's calculating P(death|age = N), not P(death|age <= N).
               | Now luckily you can calculate the second one, by adding
               | all values up to that age together.
               | 
               | I would argue the value you're looking for, "when you
               | die", is different still: P(death|age <= N,
               | current_age=M), where M is your current age. You know,
               | taking into account that you didn't die from sudden
               | infant death syndrome or measles, or you wouldn't be
               | here, but leaving everything in the future up to chance.
               | To get that value, you should the odds of dying at all
               | ages up to N, but only starting at your current age.
        
           | vaishnavsm wrote:
           | Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the criterion be that
           | the probability of death is the same between 80-90, 90-100,
           | and so on (for example) to say that humans stop aging after
           | 80?
           | 
           | Saying that your chance of dying is 50% after 80 != saying
           | it's the same consistently after 80?
        
             | zamfi wrote:
             | I think the parent poster meant "annual chance of dying
             | after 80" as in, for any year 80+, you have a 50% chance of
             | dying that year: it doesn't go up each year, so you don't
             | "age" in that sense.
        
               | jewayne wrote:
               | But this is not true. The life expectancy for an 80 year-
               | old Caucasian American woman is over 9 years. The life
               | expectancy a 90 year-old Caucasian American woman is less
               | than 5 years.
        
               | peregren wrote:
               | Yes the coin of death remembers how lucky you were in
               | your eighties and skews towards tails in your 90s. Still
               | 50/50 as its a coin.
        
               | cylon13 wrote:
               | There's only two possibilities: I'll either win the
               | lottery or I won't, so it's a 50/50 shot!
        
               | mejutoco wrote:
               | I guess I am a bayesian :)
        
           | izzydata wrote:
           | But if you flip a coin every year the chances of getting
           | heads after 10 rolls is quite high.
        
             | hutzlibu wrote:
             | Yup, it is then still quite high - exactly 50%.
        
               | capitainenemo wrote:
               | I'm sure he meant within 10 years. So (1-(0.510))=99.9%
               | chance
               | 
               | (that is, chance of flipping tails 10 times in a row is
               | 0.510 - chance of any head is what's left)
        
       | binbag wrote:
       | If this is true, why is the oldest one only trivially older than
       | the oldest human?
        
         | wila wrote:
         | Oldest known turtle you mean? [1]
         | 
         | I wouldn't call 190 years old "trivially older".
         | 
         | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_%28tortoise%29
        
       | randomopining wrote:
       | Aging is def a feature of evolution.
        
       | andsoitis wrote:
       | The article talks about the protective phenotypes hypothesis,
       | which basically says that animals with physical or chemical
       | traits that confer protection (e.g. armor, spines, shells, or
       | venom) have slower aging and live longer (compared to other
       | animals their size).
       | 
       | The thinking is that these protective mechanisms can reduce
       | mortality rate (you're not getting eaten by others), so you're
       | likely to live longer, which exerts pressure to age more slowly.
       | 
       | Biggest support for the protective phenotype hypothesis is in
       | turtles.
        
         | pkulak wrote:
         | And these protections probably take more resources to produce,
         | making it less advantageous to create offspring and die off.
        
         | ehsankia wrote:
         | Isn't the worry that a specie that doesn't die off will have
         | the older generation consuming all the resources, reducing the
         | chance at survival by the newer generation?
         | 
         | Also, how do these species with extremely long lifespan adapt
         | to changing environment?
        
           | MrPatan wrote:
           | The turtles don't seem to be worried about it.
        
       | olah_1 wrote:
       | I've gotten interested lately in the world of Ray Peat. His big
       | thing is energizing the metabolism, healthy thyroid, etc. The
       | idea is to maintain the state that a child is in to prolong life
       | and be healthy. Maximize energy rather than limit it.
       | 
       | Below is an example of a random insight:
       | 
       | > His article Cholesterol in Context states that aging "seems to
       | be a state of cholesterol starvation." In other words, the
       | ability to make cholesterol diminishes as we age.
       | 
       | https://www.womensinternational.com/blog/aging-is-cholestero...
       | 
       | It's tough to synthesize his thought though. Whoever does and
       | sells a popular level book of it will make a lot of money.
        
       | lkrubner wrote:
       | The Permian/Triassic mass extinction seems to have been the
       | turning point. The creatures that have not changed much since
       | that earlier time are the creatures that don't age. But when life
       | revived at the end of the Triassic, the world was more
       | competitive, eco-systems were more integrated, and specialization
       | became more common. Aging allows specialization, we can see that
       | most obviously with birds, which need to maintain a specific
       | weight and body mass and ratio of wing span to body mass. A bird
       | that simply grew and grew and grew, like a tortoise, would have a
       | changing ratio of wingspan to body mass and therefore it would
       | soon lose its ability to fly. The creatures that age are those
       | that have a fixed adult body shape. By contrast, the tortoises
       | and reptiles and fish that live forever also seem to grow and
       | grow and grow -- their body mass to external ratio changes over
       | time, therefore they are less specialized.
        
         | conradfr wrote:
         | New Zealand has birds that don't fly due to the lack of
         | predators and they don't get enormous and live very long life,
         | IIRC.
         | 
         | Although the ones that were big got extinct so maybe you have a
         | point...
        
         | pier25 wrote:
         | So you're saying that aging is basically growth control?
        
           | escapecharacter wrote:
           | if you were optimizing for success for a whole species, do
           | you see how going for fast iterations and throwing out old
           | code could appear as a strategy?
        
             | shadowofneptune wrote:
             | The article states:
             | 
             | "It sounds dramatic to say that they don't age at all, but
             | basically their likelihood of dying does not change with
             | age once they're past reproduction," says Reinke."
             | 
             | In humans, kids are born well below the age when we see the
             | worst effects of aging. The old do not play much of a role
             | in natural selection. It seems likely that aging or lack of
             | it is more of an accident, then.
        
             | hwillis wrote:
             | It's the opposite. You don't have children when you die,
             | and evolution occurs overwhelmingly due to genetic
             | _diversity_ rather than iteration. That is, mutations are
             | not nearly as important as the number of parents with
             | diverse code to recombine with. Excluding older individuals
             | causes the gene pool to become more consistent, because
             | mutations are easier to lose.
             | 
             | If iteration was important, sexual maturity would occur
             | drastically younger in birds and mammals, and you'd have
             | tons of offspring to maximize iteration. Reptiles are the
             | ones that have tons of children.
        
               | hackinthebochs wrote:
               | In a competitive environment, success is a function of
               | fitness over your competitors. The fitness of a
               | population is a function of the speed of fixation of
               | advantageous alleles, which itself is a function of the
               | number of generations. Thus in competitive environments,
               | selective pressure towards generational turnover is
               | increased, which is accomplished by aging. The issue of
               | genetic diversity is satisfied by the close relationship
               | of parent-offspring diversity. There's no reason to keep
               | prior generations around just for the sake of genetic
               | diversity.
               | 
               | >If iteration was important, sexual maturity would occur
               | drastically younger in birds and mammals, and you'd have
               | tons of offspring to maximize iteration
               | 
               | There are always antagonist selective pressures, e.g.
               | selective pressures towards longer childhoods and fewer
               | offspring when parental investment requirements grow.
        
           | ezconnect wrote:
           | Growing means you're making new cell, aging is when you're
           | cell seems tired and stop regenerating or being eaten by
           | other cells.
        
             | pier25 wrote:
             | Aren't cells replaced periodically?
        
               | space_fountain wrote:
               | Yes, but in a very controlled way, typically with a fixed
               | number of total devisions. Understanding aging is a slow
               | process, but as far as I know current thought is that it
               | has a lot to do with that replacement slowing down for a
               | variety of reasons. This slow down seems like it may
               | somewhat be a tradeoff with cancer though. Cells that
               | divide too robustly end up cancer, cells that sort of
               | shutdown instead are known as senescent and seem to
               | contribute to aging
        
         | fbanon wrote:
         | [citation needed]
        
         | jessermeyer wrote:
         | None of this was mentioned in the article. Where to read more
         | about this point of view?
        
         | dalbasal wrote:
         | This kind of happens to slow aging reptiles too.
         | 
         | Massive snakes like anacondas, reticulated pythons and such are
         | partly arboreal when small. When bigger, they can't really
         | climb or hide in trees. Same thing for giant monitors. Komodo
         | dragons are arboreal when small, and live a different lifestyle
         | once large. They're kind of like different species, inhabiting
         | different ecological niches.
        
           | nofollow wrote:
           | I wonder how some snakes' ability to atrophy and regenerate
           | internal organs (including the heart) is related to aging:
           | https://www.tacc.utexas.edu/-/how-pythons-regenerate-
           | their-o...
        
             | Retric wrote:
             | That's much closer to recovery from hibernation than an
             | anti aging effect.
        
         | FredPret wrote:
         | What are you talking about - I've been growing and growing as
         | an adult!
        
         | outworlder wrote:
         | Not sure if aging is related to growing forever. Our ears never
         | stop growing but they don't live forever :P
         | 
         | It's more likely that those animals descended from an ancestor
         | that didn't 'age' in the conventional sense _and_ had slow,
         | unrestricted growth. Those two traits are not necessarily
         | related.
         | 
         | Not sure if I agree with the 'specialized' moniker. All
         | creatures are specialized to their ecological niche. Humans are
         | kind of an exception.
         | 
         | What may have been selected for is fast and adaptable
         | organisms. Why bother with 'aging' if you can tolerate damage
         | over time, in exchange for more efficient organisms in the
         | short term? You only need to repair enough to ensure the
         | organism will reproduce (and maybe help care for the offspring
         | for a while).
         | 
         | Humans are actually pretty good in that aspect compared to many
         | animals. Probably because it takes a while before we are able
         | to reproduce.
        
         | bergenty wrote:
         | That's very interesting. Literally the dawn of aging. I'm
         | skeptical though, do you have any sources you can point me to?
        
         | tambourine_man wrote:
         | It's an interesting hypothesis, but why can't growth slow or
         | stall?
        
           | svachalek wrote:
           | I think the idea is that evolution finds "good enough"
           | solutions. If you can stop growth and it has the side effect
           | of putting a time limit on an individual organism's lifespan,
           | that may be an acceptable tradeoff in terms of genetic
           | propagation. While halting growth without aging may be even
           | better there may not have been enough pressure given how many
           | animals in the wild don't die of old age.
           | 
           | Not that I've ever heard this theory before. But logically it
           | seems plausible.
        
             | tambourine_man wrote:
             | Right, the question is why would stopping growth
             | necessarily limit an organism's lifespan. I don't think
             | that's a given.
             | 
             | If you don't age _and_ can stop growing at optimum size,
             | then that 's potentially a huge evolutionary advantage. And
             | since even "marginally better" can often be selected given
             | enough pressure, it's hard to imagine why growing older is
             | so prevalent.
        
         | RosanaAnaDana wrote:
         | This could also be a selection bias based on the nature of the
         | selection events. Longer lived species for whatever reason
         | (slower metabolism, ability to go dormant for long periods) may
         | have had an edge for a period of time. Its important to not
         | that there wasn't a sudden radiation based on these specific
         | surviving species after these events either.
        
       | sohrob wrote:
       | I like turtles!
        
       | andrewingram wrote:
       | Related: Andrew Steele, a friend of mine whom I know from school,
       | wrote a book about ageing, titled "Ageless", that was published
       | late last year, It's a good read - highly recommended:
       | https://andrewsteele.co.uk/ageless/
       | 
       | Worth following on Twitter if you're into the topic:
       | https://twitter.com/statto
        
         | layer8 wrote:
         | From the top Amazon review:
         | 
         |  _Essentially, a brief summary of the book is that research is
         | ongoing, there is some hope, but do not expect any treatment in
         | the very near future, meanwhile eat healthy and exercise.
         | Overall, it is a very good book for understanding the process
         | of aging. Delves into scientific evidence and provides good
         | description of the most recent developments. However, do not
         | expect it to give you any valuable practical advice apart from
         | you already probably know: you need eat healthy, do not smoke,
         | exercise etc._
        
       | cutler wrote:
       | Essence Of Wild Turtle soon to appear in a pharmacy near you.
        
         | vrc wrote:
         | Already part of Traditional Chinese Medicine (ex
         | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilinggao)
        
       | jamal-kumar wrote:
       | In multiple locales (Japan and the Caribbean) people have tried
       | to sell me on eating turtle meat because it 'makes you strong'.
       | Like there's this virility transfer that happens or something
       | between you and the meat you consume. I only tried it once in
       | Japan and it tasted like a pond, will never do that again. I
       | definitely appreciate how they're pretty cool animals in general.
       | I hope people get it out of their heads that eating them is like
       | natural viagra or whatever.
       | 
       | Oh wait, I did try a turtle egg at a bar one time in a shot of
       | chili guaro... Don't bite them open, there's sand inside.
        
         | downut wrote:
         | People have been eating soft shell and snapping turtles in the
         | SE US since... always? I grew up in the Everglades in South
         | Florida and caught and ate many soft shell turtles. Fried up,
         | tastes like... chicken? It's pretty good. The bullfrogs we
         | gigged then were quite good too, the farmed ones I've tried in
         | recent decades, not so much.
         | 
         | At no point was there any reference to particular inherent
         | qualities of turtle meat, that I recall.
        
           | jamal-kumar wrote:
           | I dunno I kind of class them in animals which are too close
           | to humans somehow to be desirable to eat. Like they have
           | personalities and long lives that just get interrupted by
           | people deciding they'd make a great meal. A lot of species of
           | turtles are threatened by invasive species like bullfrogs and
           | habitat degradation as well.
           | 
           | I'm not a picky eater by any means but there's definitely
           | some meats out there I see on the menu and don't order,
           | octopus for example - They're too smart to be munching on.
        
             | pessimizer wrote:
             | Pigs and cows seem pretty smart to me. Smarter than horses,
             | at least.
             | 
             | edit: hell, birds are pretty smart, too, even if domestic
             | chickens seem exceptionally stupid.
        
             | downut wrote:
             | I've encountered many soft shell turtles (if you fish with
             | bait in South Florida you will catch turtles) and I would
             | not classify them as close to humans. I think if this sort
             | of determination were to get any social traction then pigs
             | would be the first granted clemency. I don't see that
             | happening, ever. (I have no opinion at all about your
             | preferences, obvs.)
        
               | jamal-kumar wrote:
               | Yeah I guess we all anthropomorphize our favorite
               | creatures
        
             | s1artibartfast wrote:
             | >I kind of class them in animals which are too close to
             | humans somehow to be desirable to eat.
             | 
             | That is certainly the first time I have heard this said
             | about turtles.
        
         | munificent wrote:
         | _> it tasted like a pond_
         | 
         | Probably geosmin[1]. Some people really dislike it, others
         | don't seem to mind as much. I grew up eating catfish and
         | crawfish so I don't mind my food tasting a little muddy or
         | ditchy, but that's just me.
         | 
         | [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geosmin
        
           | jamal-kumar wrote:
           | That's really fascinating, I'm a big fan of knowing exactly
           | what the chemical signature of scents and tastes are. It
           | sounds kind of like cilantro in that way where some people
           | just feel it tastes like soap while others love it (myself in
           | the 2nd camp), but in the end from what I understand it's a
           | genetic thing.
        
       | omot wrote:
       | "Death is very likely the single best invention of life. It is
       | Life's change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the
       | new. Right now the new is you, but someday not too long from now,
       | you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to
       | be so dramatic, but it is quite true.
       | 
       | Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's
       | life. Don't be trapped by dogma -- which is living with the
       | results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of
       | others' opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most
       | important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition.
       | They somehow already know what you truly want to become.
       | Everything else is secondary"
        
         | go_elmo wrote:
         | This is one of the most important and mostly actively ignored
         | facts that I know of. It is a uncomfortable truth regarding it
         | as an individual but it is the only good solution for humanity
         | as a whole.
         | 
         | People (mostly) don't change - they (have to) die for change to
         | happen. I'm considering myself to be modern - today. In 70
         | years I'm quite sure I will no longer be by a large margin and
         | I highly doubt that I'll be able to adapt my thinking
         | incorporating them - just as I observe my parents and their
         | peers not to be fully able to do so. As humanity with this we
         | have a pool of new approaches (young) and tons of experience
         | (older) which maximizes the likelyhood of finding the right
         | approach to new challenges & making us survive as a species
        
           | somesortofthing wrote:
           | > People (mostly) don't change - they (have to) die for
           | change to happen.
           | 
           | How much of that is a consequence of the fact that our brains
           | physiologically lose the ability to change over time though?
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | chrisfosterelli wrote:
           | The causality here seems unobvious. Is aging a necessity
           | because we inherently lack the ability to change? Or do we
           | become inflexible because we age?
           | 
           | Measures of willingness to change your mind and ability to
           | learn new concepts is correlated with age. It seems just as
           | reasonable to argue that if we could solve aging, we'd solve
           | stagnation.
        
             | fleddr wrote:
             | I think it's just a roll of the dice with age as a side
             | effect.
             | 
             | Evolution's primary mechanism is to promote traits that
             | increase the likelihood that you'll survive until you can
             | reproduce. Perhaps multiple times. And for some species an
             | additional period to raise the new generation.
             | 
             | So if evolution selects for a hard protective shell, this
             | increases the odds that you reach reproductive age, which
             | is the goal. This may accidentally also add an additional
             | 100 years of lifespan. Which does nothing for reproduction,
             | but it just happens anyway.
        
               | shadowofneptune wrote:
               | Yeah, the lack of connection to reproduction is why I'm
               | skeptical of aging being an evolutionary mechanism. The
               | above quote (appears to be from Steve Jobs) seems like an
               | application of old ideas about the natural order to our
               | current understanding.
        
           | tatrajim wrote:
           | >People (mostly) don't change - they (have to) die for change
           | to happen.
           | 
           | An excellent justification for the forced retirement at 65
           | years of faculty in universities in East Asia. The sclerotic
           | atmosphere in most US research universities, where over-
           | privileged professors often linger into their 80s, has in my
           | lifetime led to a growing intellectual stagnation in many
           | (most? all?) academic fields.
        
           | fleddr wrote:
           | Today, you may be right, but historically you're wrong.
           | 
           | Take any period in human history before 10,000 years ago and
           | you'd find that nothing ever happened. As old person, the
           | world would look exactly the same as when you were young.
           | Even in modern times, there's centuries with no progress at
           | all.
        
         | Rapzid wrote:
         | Life is deaths greatest invention.
        
       | RappingBoomer wrote:
       | and we really have no idea how to transfer that to humans...and
       | we won't for a long long long time
        
       | downut wrote:
       | Back in 1994 we purchased a box turtle at a Santa Clara pet shop.
       | We still have it. It must have been fully grown then because I am
       | pretty sure it hasn't changed in size at all. I don't think we
       | have noticed any behavioral changes, either. Appetite seems the
       | same. Still gets pissed off and bangs its shell against the
       | terrarium glass when it's hungry. So that would be something like
       | 27 years without noticeable change.
       | 
       | Anyway we're close to retiring and I suppose it will transition
       | to my daughter eventually. Maybe it will outlive her too.
        
         | nonameiguess wrote:
         | I found a box turtle once, in the middle of the street in Long
         | Beach, CA, and despite all of the Internet advice not to mess
         | with box turtles, I didn't want it to get run over, so I
         | brought it inside, went to the vet, and ended up keeping her
         | for a few years until the Army was supposed to send me to
         | Hawaii, where you're not allowed to bring reptiles. So I gave
         | her to a family at Fort Lawton that built a huge enclosure in
         | their back yard, and they took her to another vet to try and
         | get an age estimate, and they guessed she was at least 70 years
         | old. She definitely did not behave in any obviously elder
         | manner. Same as any other box turtle I've ever met.
        
         | hkon wrote:
         | The idea that a turtle gets pissed off and starts banging the
         | glass made me laugh. Feed your turtle!
        
         | ocdtrekkie wrote:
         | We have a turtle that was found somewhere around 30 years ago,
         | so full age largely unknown, but... like old.
        
         | 202206241203 wrote:
         | Sounds like the beginning of a clan dedicated to serving a
         | totem beast.
        
           | downut wrote:
           | I have resisted naming our turtle 'Om'.
        
             | noir_lord wrote:
             | Pratchett?
        
             | justinpowers wrote:
             | Resistance won't be needed if you name it 'Ohm'.
        
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       (page generated 2022-06-27 23:01 UTC)