[HN Gopher] The "just worrying" labelling technique [pdf]
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The "just worrying" labelling technique [pdf]
Author : jossclimb
Score : 128 points
Date : 2022-06-26 08:51 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.mindmate.org.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.mindmate.org.uk)
| WhitneyLand wrote:
| For anyone wondering, this actually works, it can literally
| change your life, and is as simple as it sounds.
|
| But if this is true, why wouldn't it be some huge thing you hear
| about everywhere?
|
| And it is, as the essence of mindfulness meditation.
| float4 wrote:
| > why wouldn't it be some huge thing you hear about everywhere?
|
| I feel like you hear about this all the time though. Both in
| the context of mindfulness, and in the context of cognitive
| behavioral therapy.
|
| Also, as far as I know the actual effectiveness of CBT and
| mindfulness is still up for debate? It certainly works very
| well for some people, but "this actually works" might be a bit
| much?
| idleproc wrote:
| I tend to think of the workings of the mind like those of the
| body.
|
| Some people have minds that lack even basic personal hygiene.
| Others have minds that could run a marathon every week for a
| year. Most people are somewhere in-between.
|
| This is partly nature, partly nurture. But just as 'do
| squats' is good advice for someone looking to improve their
| general health, this labelling technique is good advice for
| someone who wants to worry less often.
|
| I'm not a doctor or physio, but I'd imagine that if you have
| heart problems you'd want to get those sorted before doing
| squats. Likewise, if you have suicidal thoughts it would be
| best to address those before anything else, for example.
|
| So yes, I believe 'this actually works'. But depending on
| your current level of mental fitness YMMV.
| WhitneyLand wrote:
| They're both actively researched but also both have a body of
| evidence supporting their effectiveness.
|
| If your only caveat is does not work for 100% of people, I
| think you'd have to exclude almost all therapies, drugs,
| techniques, etc.
|
| And, it's free. To learn many great books are available for
| free.
|
| Or go on a retreat to practice under an instructor. If you
| can't afford the retreat fee, it can likely be reduced or
| free. You will marvel at walking away at the end feeling no
| pressure to buy or do anything.
| afandian wrote:
| The story of the Buddha 'inviting Mara to tea' stuck with me. It
| involves more embracing of fears than "just worry", but probably
| does take more emotional investment.
| https://www.tarabrach.com/inviting-mara-to-tea/
| Trasmatta wrote:
| This only works to a point, especially if the excessive worry is
| the result of past trauma.
|
| > Or saying hello to the worry but don't stop to chat
|
| Alternative approach: get to know the part of your brain that's
| worried. What underlies that worry? What is that part of your
| brain afraid will happen if it didn't bring up this anxiety? It's
| trying to protect you from some sort of pain, even if this
| behavior of excessive worry has now become maladaptive.
|
| That's sort of the basis of Internal Family Systems therapy. The
| idea that our brain has discrete parts (different neural nets
| probably), and that they're all trying to protect us. Getting to
| know these parts can let us understand why they do what they do,
| which can give us the tools to heal them, and allow them to take
| on new roles.
|
| Sometimes this "labeling" technique can lead to negative blowback
| if parts of your brain feel that you're now in danger because
| you're ignoring their warning signals. The same problem happens
| with meditation too, which is why you hear lots of stories of
| people being destabilized at meditation retreats. I think this
| risk is higher for people with trauma in their history.
| meken wrote:
| I never thought I had trauma, but this has been my exact
| experience with labeling, and I've recently begun working with
| an IFS therapist as well.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| Yeah, it's also possible that it's not the best approach even
| for people without acute trauma. Trauma can also be complex
| and cumulative, like with CPTSD.
|
| I think it can work in the short term, but it ignores the
| longer term fact that these anxieties are coming from
| somewhere in our brains that can't always be reprogrammed
| with a simple labeling technique.
| spoiler wrote:
| This is all thinking in hindsight, so maybe it's backwards
| rationalisation, but when I started meditating it felt like
| it helped me improve my focus at work, but around the same
| time I've become more emotionally disregulated. So, maybe
| there is something to what you're saying.
|
| This is very anecdotal though (and I've definitely had an
| abusive mother)
| Trasmatta wrote:
| I've read a lot of anecdotal reports just like yours. I
| think it's way more common than people think when they
| get into meditation. Especially for people who had any
| trauma growing up.
|
| I think the IFS model offers an interesting hypothesis
| for why this happens. According to IFS, we have parts
| that experienced extreme pain in childhood that hold onto
| that pain and become "exiles". Other parts are put in
| front of them as "protectors". Meditation seems to quiet
| the protectors, which can unleash the pain of the exiles
| unexpectedly, leaving us without the ability to deal with
| it.
|
| IFS takes a different approach by working with the
| protectors, not against them. You only go to the exiles
| (the deep pain underneath) with the permission of the
| protectors.
| riffraff wrote:
| I struggle a bit with anxiety, and started doing some similar
| form of labeling a few months back.
|
| Whenever I notice my thoughts spiraling I just notice it ("I am
| starting to be anxious") and take a few deep breath to put a
| break on the automatic reflex loop.
|
| I can't say it solves all problems, but it seems to be at least
| somewhat helpful, and as the PDF says, it's really, really easy.
| djbusby wrote:
| Similar, and I add a note about the thing into a little
| notebook to review later.
| jancsika wrote:
| The word "helpful" is doing a lot of work in that phrase "helpful
| problem solving."
|
| For starters: which phone is the most secure option for HN to
| make a call to a therapist-- an Iphone SE or a Pixel 6 Pro
| running Graphene OS?
| hardlianotion wrote:
| This sort of thing always reminds me of the potato sacks the
| Silastic Armourfiends of Striterax had to punch each morning to
| get rid of their surplus aggression.
| dwighttk wrote:
| I use this on deja vu so I don't have to spend a while trying to
| figure out if/when I saw something before.
| [deleted]
| _def wrote:
| Incredible, thanks for sharing. Seems like this whole website is
| packed with similar good explained help around mental health:
| https://www.mindmate.org.uk/
| glenstein wrote:
| Just this morning I listened to a radiolab podcast: "the wordless
| place", which talks about how a word puts something in a
| category, and that doing this can take living concepts and turn
| them dead, like putting a firefly in a jar without air. It makes
| reference to something named the Zeigarnik effect - for
| remembering unfinished or interrupted tasks better than completed
| tasks, and it analogizes this to the ability to better remember a
| phenomenon in its detail and nuance and contextual connection
| better when you don't have a word for it.
|
| In this case, putting a word to worry is used as a good and
| effective way to stop worry, which is an angle that had not
| occurred to me.
| meken wrote:
| I've been doing this for months.
|
| Sometimes it's helpful, but it seems more and more like I'm using
| it as a tool to suppress my worries and control my thoughts,
| which feels bad and leads to a lot of internal conflict.
|
| I can't understand what people mean with "let your thoughts float
| by". For me, noticing them is synonymous with interrupting them,
| and it feels like I'm suppressing them most of the time.
| jcutrell wrote:
| I can understand that. I have to follow through with logic for
| why the worry won't help.
|
| "What is the upside for me if I continue to worry?"
| rpastuszak wrote:
| > I can't understand what people mean with "let your thoughts
| float by". For me, noticing them is synonymous with
| interrupting them, and it feels like I'm suppressing them most
| of the time.
|
| The way this works for me, say, when I meditate, is to
| acknowledge a thought and put it in a box labelled "for later".
|
| I'm not ignoring it, I'm just dealing with it when I _want to_,
| not when my anxiety kicks in or when my brain tries to fill the
| silence in my head. If it's important, I'll remember it.
|
| I still suck at this, but I'm somewhat better than I used to
| be. So, it's a bit like exercise, and one can get better with
| time. It's also very personal (ymmv). Again, this way of
| looking at it worked for _me_.
| WhitneyLand wrote:
| It's common to get hung up on a point like that. I think the
| best way to get past it is have someone explain the same thing
| in a different way that might click easier.
|
| What's described here is basically mindfulness meditation. I an
| not the mystical type _at all_ and this was a great entry point
| for me:
|
| http://ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Mindfulness%20in%20Pla...
| rpastuszak wrote:
| This reminds me of a CBT technique known "Rumination Cues
| Action". It was quite useful in my case.
|
| The goal of the technique is to tackle the issue behaviourally,
| spot the rumination trigger and do something else so you can
| anchor yourself to back to reality. This should help you develop
| a habit of stopping worrying _before_ it escalates into
| rumination.
|
| This is roughly how it works:
|
| 1. Notice when you're ruminating (i.e. what are the triggers?
| e.g. "leaving the bed", "taking a shower"). Ideally, write them
| down somewhere. I'd use the Notes app on my phone for that.
|
| 2. Once you notice the trigger happening again, _do something
| else_!
|
| Example: if I noticed that I was worrying about _<generic,
| impossible to solve problem [1]>_, I'd leave my computer and grab
| a glass of water, stretch, text someone. Initially, I had to do
| this almost all the time, which felt a bit silly but after a few
| days I had less and less to put in my Notes app and felt
| generally more in control.
|
| None of this is a replacement for therapy, of course, but it's
| one of the CBT tools I've personally found helpful. Stretching
| 15m per weeks is not as good as visiting the gym, but it's still
| better than doing nothing. And this is low-hanging fruit.
|
| [1] pick your poison, in my case this could've been anything
| ranging from impostor syndrome to homelessness to cancer to war.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| Much of this seems familiar from mindfulness and CBT style
| approaches to rumination and catastrophising.
|
| However, I do have a problem with the word "just" and its
| possibly dangerous consequences. The opposite tendency is
| minimisation.
|
| You properly identify "impossible to solve problem" as a
| target, but without some care the label _" just"_ might get
| attached to: Just a final exam. Just one burger. Just a little
| unexplained blood.
|
| I was expecting a second page to the PDF dealing with how to
| mentally process these labels and sort them into actionable and
| inactionable.
|
| Worry can be anything from a pointless, corrosive rumination to
| a very important instinct that your subconscious or body is
| telling you to do something about. Linking the feeling to a
| phenomenon and possible action requires attention which cannot
| be pushed down indefinitely.
| [deleted]
| ergonaught wrote:
| This isn't about labeling the target. It's about labeling the
| entirely unhelpful "just worrying", which they identify in
| the very first bubble. "Just worrying" about a final exam is
| an entirely accurate and useful label. "Just worrying" about
| it will not accomplish anything useful or helpful.
|
| Labeling it as "just an exam" may or may not be
| useful/helpful in some circumstances, but those aren't the
| subject of the PDF.
| rpastuszak wrote:
| I see your point, but I think this leaflet is aimed at the
| people who have a tendency to overthink and ruminate as
| opposed of ignoring issues, hence the approach.
|
| You'll be rarely ruminating about something that is a real,
| actionable problem. Instead, you're more likely to be
| ruminating about something, anything that _isn 't_ the actual
| problem at hand. So, in a sense, ruminating can be a form of
| escapism.
|
| That's why I don't worry too much about the use of "just"
| here. At least personally, I don't think it's likely that I'd
| follow this approach and end up _avoiding_ problems.
|
| Reason: it's easier to spot either extreme when you step out
| of your head even for a moment.
|
| PS. When I worry too much about something I can't control
| (e.g. silly office politics) I try to figure out what is the
| thing I'm _not_ thinking about (getting the release done,
| having a difficult workshop to run).
|
| PPS. I'm not a psychologist, but I read some interesting
| perspectives on the problem of avoidance when researching
| Schema Therapy. Surely, there are better materials than that,
| but I found it personally interesting and you might too.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| > the thing I'm _not_ thinking about
|
| Yes, interesting point. I think that's a good thing to
| investigate. Thanks for the thoughts,
| systom wrote:
| This is one of the 6 key processes in ACT (Acceptance and
| Commitment Therapy), which is based on RFT (Relational Frame
| Theory).
|
| _Defusion involves the creation of nonliteral, nonevaluative
| contexts that diminish the unnecessary regulatory functions of
| cognitive events, and increase contact with the ongoing process
| of relating as opposed merely to its products. Said in another
| way, the focus is on mindfully noticing thinking as it occurs.
| Some examples of defusion techniques include thanking one's mind
| for a thought, watching thoughts go by as if they were written on
| leaves floating down a stream, repeating words out loud until
| only the sound remains, or giving thoughts a shape, size, and
| texture. Clients can practice labeling the process of thinking
| (e.g., "I am having the thought that I will never be
| successful"), and practice behaving in ways that directly
| contradict a thought (e.g., saying "I cannot walk" as one walks
| across the room). The goal is greater behavioral flexibility, not
| an immediate change in their frequency or form._
|
| Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3635495/
| keybored wrote:
| I got chronically stuck in my meditation regiment when I got to
| the point where I was supposed to briefly acknowledge
| distractions. It turned into too much of a thing. Too much
| thinking about thinking.
|
| The best headspace for me is when I can stop identifying with my
| thoughts. That's the best thing that I've learned from meditation
| yet, and I would have never gotten to that place/space
| organically by myself.
|
| > This technique involves no criticism or anger at yourself,
|
| Easier said than done. I blamed myself for getting distracted.
| And then I blamed myself for blaming myself. I wasn't mindful
| enough to get out of that cycle.
| dqpb wrote:
| > Worrying involves repetitive thinking ... without coming up
| with any solutions
|
| The problem here is not the worrying, it's the lack of solution.
|
| > The 'Just Worrying' Labelling Technique
|
| This is not really a technique, it's just a thought terminating
| cliche. There are many possible thought terminating cliches.
|
| In my experience, rational techniques are far superior to thought
| terminating cliches.
| dymk wrote:
| I think the linked poster is talking about irrational
| stressors, not ones you can talk yourself out of.
|
| Worries that stem from irrational sources sometimes can't be
| quelled with rational thought processes. We're more beholden to
| primordial stress responses than we'd like to admit, triggered
| by things which make no sense on paper. Social anxiety is a
| good example. Worrying about deadlines you know you're on track
| for. Etc.
|
| It makes sense that (some) irrational stresses can be quelled
| by sheer force of will. We have _some_ conscious control over
| our stress responses, or at least can retrain the way our
| brains follow up to that stress response. It doesn 't work for
| everything, but it's a good tool to have in one's mental
| wellbeing toolbox.
| dqpb wrote:
| > We're more beholden to primordial stress responses than
| we'd like to admit
|
| I completely agree. This is why I don't think thought
| terminating cliches are a solution. Our stress response is a
| policy trained over eons of evolution. We should honor it
| with real thought and real action.
| ReactiveJelly wrote:
| I think it's okay to use thought-terminating cliches on
| yourself if you understand what you are telling your
| subconscious and why.
|
| E.g. politics isn't going my way this year? What can I do?
| Vote? Protest? Strike? Donate? I will certainly vote. I don't
| feel like doing anything else. Everything else has to fall
| under "I'm doing what I can for now." or "Yeah life just sucks
| huh" or something.
|
| Then I'm free to put that thought back down for a while.
| cuser wrote:
| Is there a good book on CBT? I've looked into Burn's collection
| and others, but they have so much filler and anecdotes about this
| one time they had a patient that thought they were ugly but was
| actually stunningly beautiful, then the simple steps they
| followed cured them etc.
|
| Looking for something more practical on how to implement the
| techniques, not something trying to sell me that it works.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| His "Feeling Good Handbook" is actually a good course if you
| treat it like a particularly slow textbook aimed at new
| students.
|
| Skim the exercises and anecdotes. You can stop reading after
| chapter 6. It's just variations on the same theme from there.
|
| I also have a two page "crash course" I derived from it. It's a
| worksheet and how to use it. It assumes you have some level of
| self-awareness and already understand the dangers of using CBT
| improperly.
|
| Word: https://kayode.co/therapy-worksheet.docx
|
| PDF: https://kayode.co/therapy-worksheet.pdf
|
| At some point, I need to write an article on my blog that
| covers how to use it properly. Until then, I'm using unlisted
| links.
| darrelld wrote:
| I keep telling myself: "He who worries, suffers twice". I can't
| remember who the quote is attributed to, but it's a helpful
| little phrase that reminds me that it's better to just suffer
| once and be done, or sometimes, not suffer at all.
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| I'm going to try it but I can't imagine why it would work.
|
| After an accident two years ago I developed some tics and
| abnormal compulsive behaviour that make me feel like a real
| nutcase but none of the tricks I find online have done anything
| to help.
|
| I've tried inflicting light pain to myself when it happens as a
| sort of reverse Pavlov bell, I've tried deep rationalization:
| analyzing the feelings to their root as a way to take away the
| associated emotions, and lately I've been trying repeating the
| opposite of the way I feel as a way to try and cancel the
| thoughts. It is really hard retraining the brain it seems.
|
| It's given me some really interesting insights on trauma, though.
| It's hard to empathize with things you haven't experienced, I
| used to feel people were weak who were traumatized by life
| experiences that I felt were not all that bad compared to some of
| the things I and other people I know have been through. But it
| turns out it's not about the magnitude of the harm, it's more
| about the way your brain interprets it and the false causal
| patterns it forms from your experience.
| feanaro wrote:
| I think techniques based on observation and acceptance might
| have a better chance of working than trying to forcefully
| extinguish or fight it.
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| Bruteforce has worked for me in the past. But maybe you're
| right, I'm going to try this one and see how it goes.
| mrcartmeneses wrote:
| PTSD? Have you considered MDMA, ketamine or Ayahuasca? Nitrous
| Oxide is also said to work on the same "glutamate pathway" and
| may also have some therapeutic effect. You'd need food safe
| stuff though like you find in whipped cream, not from a car's
| nitrous bottle.
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| No idea what it is, I never went to a mental health
| professional. I got Ketamine before being loaded into the
| ambulance and I felt pretty great for about 4 to 6 months
| after. But it's not easily available in my country outside of
| emergency situations.
|
| Hadn't heard of some of those other ones, maybe I'll them a
| try, cheers.
| yata69420 wrote:
| If you're not aware, ketamine clinics are now trending in
| the US. The effects do seem to last about 4-6 months from
| what I've heard.
| rpastuszak wrote:
| > It is really hard retraining the brain it seems.
|
| Have you tried seeing a therapist? A good therapist works a bit
| like a coach (think: "sports coach", not "live coach" whatever
| the fuck that means). We're notoriously bad at spotting
| unproductive thought patterns, and having someone with an
| unbiased perspective and the right expertise really helps. It
| takes years, but so far it has been the most effective way of
| doing so, for me.
|
| Also, you can keep rationalising as much as you want, but your
| meat sponge is not a rational, logical machine. The average HN
| reader might make the mistake of believing otherwise (include
| me on this list). Your amygdala doesn't give a shit, however.
|
| Speaking from personal experience here, hope it didn't come
| across as patronising. I just noticed that many of the things
| you've said sound familiar.
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| It'd probably be the healthy thing to do but I don't have the
| money, the time or the ability since my physical health
| hasn't recovered yet. Also I find the idea of talking about
| my feelings to a complete stranger unappealing. But anyway
| I'm not complaining, it's not too bad, I've solved the more
| debilitating aspects through personal work and the rest I can
| live with until I figure out a way to get rid of it.
|
| I didn't take it to be patronizing, I appreciate the advice.
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