[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Any certification that is worth it? Legitima...
___________________________________________________________________
Ask HN: Any certification that is worth it? Legitimately helped
your career?
Free or paid. Both tech and non-tech (scrum, PMP etc)
Author : akudha
Score : 287 points
Date : 2022-06-25 12:39 UTC (10 hours ago)
| jyemeier wrote:
| I've met a lot of certified people who didn't know anything
| beyond the questions they crammed for to pass a test. When I see
| a cert on a resume, it makes me want to challenge it. Of course,
| there is a ton of nuance to these interactions, so I'm speaking
| very generally here.
|
| No cert is a substitute for real practical experience. If you are
| trying to get a job and you don't have experience, then I can see
| how a cert might be nice to put on a resume. As a hiring manager,
| it doesn't make you more attractive to me to hire. The four years
| of experience doing a thing does. For tech stuff, I'd rather you
| have a home network with the thing and valuable time using it
| then the cert for the thing. The time spent pulling your hair out
| getting the thing running at home is a better use of the time
| then studying for the cert test.
|
| However, I do put value in a liberal arts education. I don't even
| really care what that education is in. I feel people that come
| out of a four year program tend to think differently/more
| critically, on average.
|
| Short answer, then: Get a liberal arts education. Get hands on
| experience. Skip the certs.
| hashtag-til wrote:
| LPIC helped me organising my Linux/shell knowledge. It was all
| received by my propective employer.
| atlgator wrote:
| PMP is usually required to run government contracts. CISSP or
| CISM is required for cyber leadership roles And any of the pro
| solution architect certs from AWS, Azure, GCP.
| tim333 wrote:
| Not sure if it's what you mean but graduating from a good uni
| seems to make a difference to people. I went to Cambridge and
| people always treat you a bit different when you say. Though it's
| more having gone than what you studied. Even if you are too late
| for undergrad you can always potentially do a masters at some
| high ranking place.
| cube00 wrote:
| My experience is once you've got your foot in the door at a
| company nobody is interested in your university background.
| Perhaps it's different if you have a higher qualification like
| a doctorate.
| tim333 wrote:
| Could be - I never really did the career thing.
| inglor wrote:
| first aid certification totally worth it. The fact I know how to
| provide CPR and first aid opened some surprising opportunities
| (e.g. attending C level company tours that opened doors) and
| provided me with experiences when volunteering in an ambulance
| which is also a surprisingly good network.
| c8g wrote:
| Can anyone please share your personal experience with AWS
| Solutions Architect certification? I hope to complete it someday.
| Do you have any other suggestion?
| s1k3s wrote:
| For testers I found that ISTQB is really valuable. The lack of
| graduate programs for this field + the fact that's not easy to
| get make it even more important.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| The bigger and more bureaucratic a company is, the more certs
| tend to matter.
|
| Lack of experience and achievements also make certs stand out
| more, because you've got not much else to show for yourself.
|
| Sometimes certs can be a red flag.. depending on the cert. For
| example, someone with a whole bunch of Windows certs applying for
| a job dealing only with Linux? That's a bit of a red flag.
| Doesn't mean they won't get the job, though.. it's just one
| factor in the hiring decision.
|
| Sometimes for really laid back companies, any kind of formal
| signaling like this could be a turn-off. It's like coming in to a
| company wearing a suit when everyone else is wearing shorts.
| inglor wrote:
| I work for a fairly hige tech company and it's pretty
| bureaucratic (although I suspect not nearly as much as some
| others) and certifications (other than academic degrees and
| such) still carry the same sort of negative connotation here
| the other answer implies.
| DocTomoe wrote:
| > The bigger and more bureaucratic a company is, the more certs
| tend to matter.
|
| Also: The more your role is "external consultant", the more
| certifications matter.
| njharman wrote:
| > The bigger and more bureaucratic a company is, the more certs
| tend to matter.
|
| This is the key point.
|
| Certs aren't good/bad, or helpful/harmful in of themselves.
| They matter/or not depending on what type of employment(if any)
| you are trying for for.
|
| For instance, I never want to work in bureaucracies or places
| levels/layers/management complexity that they must fall back on
| certifications, skill checklists, and the like. So, I never
| pursued any form of certification. Not even a university
| diploma.
| spaetzleesser wrote:
| Form observation an MBA gets you into higher paying work.
| nixcraft wrote:
| Back in 1998 or 2000 (I don't remember the exact year), I did
| RHCE and IT networking certificate. It landed my first corporate
| gig as I was the only person who knew Linux. In addition, I was
| the first hire who started replacing traditional Unix servers
| with RHEL. So, yes, it did help me despite not having a college
| degree. I am very thankful to Linux and FLOSS for paying all my
| bills over the years.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| Honestly I do not do certs to help my career.
|
| I find product / vendor based certification helps me round out my
| knowledge of a product better than just execution of a given task
| I need done at the time. This has helped me understand more of
| the capabilities of the what I wanted to learn
|
| IMO this is more were the value of certs come in.
|
| So for example I would not get a AWS Cert to get a Job in Cloud
| Administration, I would start training learning the cert to
| understand AWS, the cert is then just the final step of the
| learning process, the reward if you will.
|
| Do I need to cert to learn it, no and sometimes I do not actually
| sit for the test.
|
| I think people that just brain dump to pass the exam do
| themselves a disservice, that said the short answer to your
| question, I can not think of any cert that by virtue of just
| having it has advanced my career, I can say the process of
| getting certs which resulted in my expanded knowledge and
| experience has
| runnr_az wrote:
| Yeah. This. I don't hire people based off AWS certs, but I
| encourage my people to get them for the learning. I'd say the
| general AWS knowledge I've gotten from even the most basic AWS
| certs have legitimately helped my career because now I know how
| the services fit together.
| donohoe wrote:
| None.
| itsmemattchung wrote:
| Cisco certified network associate (CCNA). As a developer with
| roots in networking, being able to troubleshoot the network --
| even as little as understanding the 3-way TCP hand shake to
| identify whether even a socket has been established -- helps you
| isolate fairly quickly whether it's your app, the server, or some
| intermediate device that's causing headaches.
| FunnyBadger wrote:
| For rapidly changing technology industries, certificates merely
| indicate what technologies are no longer leading edge, and
| literally that they are trailing edge.
|
| You can't and thus don't do certifications for anything that
| leading edge and high margin because there is no time. It takes
| time to normalize and formalize a technology enough to even make
| certification possible.
|
| So you need to decide:
|
| 1. What your skill levels are actually are,
|
| 2. What you comfort with actual leading edge tech is
|
| 3. Which of the two is best for you
| Waterluvian wrote:
| Fair or not, if someone has flooded their email signature with
| certs, my expectations lower.
| prepend wrote:
| I worked with someone who was a certified yoga instructor and
| uninronically had it on her business cards and email signature.
|
| She was a tech consultant. After I looked up "CYT" I think that
| made me not think positively of her. I mean it's good that
| someone is proud of their accomplishment, but such a weird
| thing to announce to the world.
| arnvald wrote:
| Same with the resumes. It's ok to have a section and list a few
| certificates, but quite regularly I see people put logos of
| some certificate programs on top of the resume, next to their
| name. It doesn't make a good impression.
| kanonieer wrote:
| I don't think certifications will make a significant difference
| from the HR point of view (maybe in Enterprise) but one thing I
| observe in my network is that some people really benefit from
| certifications purely because it boosts their self-confidence or
| help them get over a nagging case of impostor syndrome.
|
| I find that these people feel lost when you tell them they'd be
| better off just being curious and learning by doing the thing
| itself. They tend to find comfort in systems like the belt system
| in martial arts. So, if you feel this way- it might be worthwhile
| to pick up a few certifications just for _yourself_.
| douge1 wrote:
| I've been in FinTech for 20 years. Two businesses I started.
| Worked with 40 of the top 200 Investment firms. The number one
| cert I've seen BY FAR a) making the most profound impact on work
| and b) helping the most to increase your probability of always
| having a great position, is a CFA.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| Driver's license.
|
| Maybe it sounds obvious, but if you don't have a license, you are
| crippling yourself.
|
| Even if you don't have a car, not having a license means you
| don't even have the option of renting one. Also, is is so
| "obvious" that if an employer notices that you don't have it, he
| will wonder why. Are you too stupid to drive? Crippled in some
| way? Economic problems? Have some criminal history? Alcoholic?
| You may have a legitimate reason, but it is still a red flag and
| you may need to clear yourself.
|
| Second and just as obvious is a degree. Not so important if you
| have experience (though some large companies care), but a degree
| may be the key to a good first job that may launch the rest of
| your career.
|
| I have never felt the need for any technical certification, not
| personally, the few I needed were paid by my employer for a
| specific mission, and done during work hours. Didn't get much use
| after that. Since I am not an English speaker, I probably could
| want something like a decent TOEIC score if I wanted to work in a
| large company in an English speaking country, but I am net even
| sure.
| klabb3 wrote:
| > Crippled in some way?
|
| Thank you for your application. We have decided to pursue other
| candidates due to our recruiter getting "low key cripple vibes"
| from you. Don't take it personally though, and good luck in the
| future.
| xmodem wrote:
| This is probably the dumbest answer in this entire thread.
| Firstly, unless the role requires driving for some reason,
| anti-discrimination laws in many countries will make
| discrimination based on lack of a license illegal. Secondly, as
| someone with impaired vision who cannot get a drivers license,
| it's morally wrong, and your enumeration of associations
| someone might jump to are pretty fucking offensive.
|
| Also, WRT TOEIC, while you might need something like that for
| visa/immigration purposes, i've never heard of a company
| looking at a piece of paper rather than just conducting the
| interview in English.
| jpambrun wrote:
| I am 38, have a PhD in EE, but no drivers license. I am not
| disabled or stupid. I have a successful career and no one ever
| enquired about it. I live a mid size city with ample public
| transportation; if anything having a car is the
| suboptimal/stupid choice. Your assumptions are ridiculous.
| deadbunny wrote:
| Don't think I've ever had any employers asking if I have a
| driving license (in the UK) unless driving was required for the
| role.
|
| And the same for degrees, this seems to be very US centric IME.
| Not having a degree hasn't stopped me getting jobs in top
| salary brackets based purely on my experience, hell I even have
| a very odd work history and didn't move into tech till my 30's.
|
| Same for certs, requirements for certs in job ads definitely
| seem to be a US thing. And for me if I'm reviewing CVs I see
| certs as a mild redflag as I've come across far, far to many
| people who have certs but couldn't work their way out of a
| soggy paper bag.
| ksm1717 wrote:
| A drivers license and a degree.. who would have thought of
| those
| matsemann wrote:
| Is this some American car culture thing? Never heard someone
| mentioning it as an issue. If anything, in my circles owning a
| car is frowned upon.
| gcheong wrote:
| Yes. I grew up in a fairly small town. If you wanted to get
| anywhere you basically needed to drive. Even today there is
| little public transportation in that area and only between a
| few key places. Once I got my driver's license I was expected
| to drive me and my younger sister to high school. But with
| responsibilities come privileges as I had use of a car for
| going out with friends, dating, getting to jobs, etc. For
| much of the geographic US it's really the only practical form
| of transportation. That said my wife has managed to get by
| all her life without having a driver's license so it can be
| done and employers never ask about it unless it's actually
| needed for a job.
| mandmandam wrote:
| It's an American thing. You're expected to drive from 16 on.
| Public transport is generally inferior to other developed
| countries, and carries an abhorrent level of cultural
| baggage. Being told someone rides the bus is seen as an
| insult (!) over most of the country.
|
| Up until very recently, the big costs of running a car -
| 'gas', insurance, the car itself - were relatively cheaper in
| America than nearly anywhere else. Maybe now that Merkins are
| paying more for petrol their culture will adapt. However,
| cynicism would suggest a more Mad Max destination for us.
| We'll pry the guzzoline from their bullet-ridden bodies.
| frakkingcylons wrote:
| I have no earthly idea what you are talking about wrt drivers
| licenses. It'd be a mere curiosity at first but nothing beyond
| that.
| biztos wrote:
| > Are you too stupid to drive? Crippled in some way? Economic
| problems? Have some criminal history? Alcoholic?
|
| I recently got my driver's license, first one, at an age far
| far above the norm for America, even if you factor in New York.
|
| In a long and so far pretty successful career in tech, this has
| come up exactly once in a professional context, and it was my
| fault because I was asking about the lack of public transit
| options during an interview. CEO asked "why don't you just get
| a license?"
|
| My colleagues usually find out sooner or later that I don't
| (didn't) drive, because I'm very social. Most people are
| fascinated by the possibility. At the very least it's a
| conversation starter.
|
| I regret not getting the license sooner, but the kind of
| ignorant and malicious questions listed above have never, ever
| featured in my unusually long pre-DL experience.
| tikhonj wrote:
| I don't know about other industries, but driver's licenses have
| _never come up at all_ in tech. Treating it as a red flag is
| obviously facile, but, honestly, no worse than nonsense I
| _have_ seen in tech hiring... but it 's just not something that
| comes up.
|
| College degrees can definitely matter, unfortunately, but
| they're not strictly required. I've seen teams and managers who
| were pretty snobbish about _which_ university somebody went to
| --to the point where _not having a degree_ would have been
| better than going to an unknown or poorly regarded school. It
| 's an absurd idea and, thankfully, seems to be getting less
| common in tech, but I saw some of it first-hand. (From what
| I've heard, it's still a real problem in law where a bunch of
| firms in the US are virtually T14 or bust.)
| donatj wrote:
| Years ago after our DBA was let go and I took on a significant
| portion of their responsibilities, my job told me I needed to get
| MySQL certified. The sign up page for the course they wanted me
| to take at the time only worked in IE and I only had Macs at home
| and in the office. I never got around to installing a VM just to
| sign up. I'm still doing the same job like 8 years later so I'm
| guessing it really wasn't that important.
| DocTomoe wrote:
| No career progression in eight years would imply that it might
| have been.
| donatj wrote:
| I am in the highest non-management engineering position at a
| job I enjoyed that pays well. I am not looking for
| "progression", I am where I want to be, full stop.
|
| This is the dream. I had been lead developer, in charge of
| people at a previous job and I hated every single minute of
| it. Managing people sucks. I am just over here actively
| avoiding the Peter Principle.
| cpach wrote:
| I have maybe 2-3 quite old certs. I don't really seek out
| certification, and I wouldn't want to work for a company that
| requires them. Interview me and feel free to hand out a coding
| assignment and call my refs - if you still don't believe in my
| competence, just don't hire me.
| stagger87 wrote:
| Maybe not exactly what you're looking for but my M.S. was
| invaluable. Needed it to get into R&D roles, lots of people
| assumed I was smarter just for having it (it was in a specialized
| field).
| grepfru_it wrote:
| Certs have done nothing for me personally, but they have helped
| me walk into jobs. Employers do not need to validate your skills
| when someone else has done it for you. CCNA/CCNP were dirt easy
| exams (for me) but everyone wanted to see it just to validate if
| you could grasp networking concepts. MCSE (and whatever it was
| renamed to) to validate windows knowledge. Vmware, hashicorp, k8s
| certs etc all raise your worth. A lot of larger organizations
| like the structured approach that you come away with.
|
| I say, if you know the underlying concepts, go and take the
| certifications. Doubly so if your company will pay for them. It's
| just free resume fodder.
|
| TL;DR: DO IT.
| rammy1234 wrote:
| I don't have certs in my 17 years career. I always believe good
| work ( clubbed with learning ) and subsequent recommendations or
| reference based on that good work helps a career. It is always
| about learning, never about certification. I personally don't
| believe in certification, but sometime it is useful to know the
| syllabus. You go broad and dive deep on some.
| pizzalife wrote:
| Qualifications > Certifications
| FpUser wrote:
| After getting my masters in 1982 and then half defending PhD I
| did not do any certs. To me it is a total waste of time. When I
| need something I do not know I always find enough info on how to
| solve a problem or guess it myself. Being a former scientist this
| is how I was trained. The last thing I need are some bloodsuckers
| charging me money for their failure to produce decent docs /
| manuals / whatever else relevant.
|
| Since I went on my own for the last 22 years I do not recall ever
| being asked for any certs anyways. I specialize in developing
| products from scratch with some hit an run jobs in between and
| clients just read references and rather long list of products
| I've developed. This severs me way better than any cert ever
| will.
|
| Of course the situation would be totally different if I've worked
| in some other field.
| lumost wrote:
| Certs were mildly useful 10 years ago in launching my career.
| After the first job no one cared, I'd imagine a boot camp does
| the same now.
|
| There is a category of company/role that really just needs some
| basic proof point that you know what your doing.
|
| My first job was auditing user permissions, and refactoring
| Perl/bash scripts. There was a department of 9 people who
| provisioned a server once every 1-3 months using a mix of
| proprietary and open source software, they were also responsible
| for the operations of the legacy financial service the company
| offered.
|
| I got the job, because it was boring, contract to hire, and
| probably a career dead end, had a brutal on all schedule, a
| penchant for firing people over mistakes, low paid, and made you
| wear a suit to work. It didn't hurt that I memorized the answers
| to 100 Linux admin questions.
|
| I left after a year and a half for a much better tech job at a
| startup, and transitioned to a standard engineer position within
| the year.
| jcalvinowens wrote:
| Amateur radio license. The experience is more relevant to my job
| than any corporate training I've ever done.
|
| Note that "experience" means "everything I've done with the
| license _since_ getting the license ". Don't fall into the
| "achievement" trap: reading a book so you can pass a multiple
| choice test teaches you precisely nothing, unless you go out and
| start to apply the rote memorization.
| fffobar wrote:
| I am trying to learn about radio (and the electric and magnetic
| fields in general), and I'm following the Great Scott Gadgets'
| "Software Defined Radio with HackRF" video series. I'm also
| thinking about getting an amateur radio license. What else
| could you recommend?
| foundart wrote:
| arrl.org and rsgb.org, the US and UK amateur radio
| organizations, sell a variety of books you might find
| helpful.
|
| If you are in the US, ARRL sells books that teach to the
| specifics of the US tests. I used those but found them rather
| unsatisfying. There are other books which focus on
| experiments (see Hands-On Radio Experiments) and others on
| theory.
|
| The ARRL Handbook is also useful. It's updated annually, but
| you won't miss too much if you save a few dollars by getting
| an older edition.
| benbarbersmith wrote:
| Interesting. What have you experienced with it since passing,
| and why is it relevant to your job?
| imadethis wrote:
| Getting my EMT cert was pretty important for getting a job as an
| EMT. In all seriousness the difference between getting hired for
| my tech jobs vs as an EMT was interesting. I'm used to the
| standard multi week interview process, but for EMS the only
| question was if I had my certs.
| meristem wrote:
| Do you plan to go the paramedic route? I let my EMT lapse once
| I moved to CA; the scope of work was more restricted than East
| Coast, where many states rely on volunteer fire and EMT.
| imadethis wrote:
| Yes, if I can get into a program that allows for nights and
| weekends study while still being rigorous. Still need the
| tech paycheck for now.
| booleandilemma wrote:
| It's a sign of not enough people applying for EMT jobs and too
| many people applying for tech jobs.
| wcchandler wrote:
| I picked up my RHCSA this past year, seeing the rise in inflation
| I wanted an advantage for merit increases. I'll let ya know in a
| few weeks if I did better than my peers. I work in Higher Ed so I
| already get paid less than industry average.
| 0x0000000 wrote:
| I got my CCIE and then went to work in software where no one gave
| a shit, but since then I've moved back to more networking-centric
| roles and it's definitely paying dividends. That said, Cisco
| ain't what they used to be and I don't think I'd encourage anyone
| to start their CCIE journey today.
| powerslacker wrote:
| Google Cloud Architect
| itsEtai wrote:
| I found the training course for the CPWA to be really useful. I
| refer back to it frequently to help guide my company's strategy
| for web accessibility.
|
| https://www.accessibilityassociation.org/s/certified-profess...
| jimnotgym wrote:
| My accounting qualifications helped me leave a physical trade for
| an office job, where I learned about ERP systems, re-discovered
| coding and got into a hybrid tech/finance job.
| k__ wrote:
| A friend if mine took many certs for fun.
|
| He said, the AWS ones were pretty good. They weren't too easy,
| you have to train a few weeks to get them and you would actually
| learn something of practical use in everyday work. Also, they're
| actually in demand.
| xeromal wrote:
| Yeah, I think the AWS ones are a good one to have if you're a
| dev.
| conciliatory wrote:
| Certs and the studying associated with certs has always been the
| biggest unlock in my career. The MCSE gave me a 50% salary uplift
| in the early 2000's and the Cisco CCNA/CCNP gave me an invaluable
| networking background in the mid aughts. Recently, the AWS certs
| have given me an opportunity to pivot from management back into
| the technical realm and given me the confidence and framework to
| think about IT problems in a whole different way (traditional IT
| vs Cloud native) Throughout my life I've always done better by
| investing in myself and my learning, and certs have always been a
| huge part of that. My investments, stocks, startups, etc. have
| always been hit or miss, but my skills and the opportunities they
| have opened have been huge unlocks. Certs are a structured way to
| achieve those unlocks and represent them in the professional
| world. For all the cynicism one hears about certs, my experience
| has been the exact opposite, I'd do them all over again - I've
| learned a ton and had a rewarding career.
| gerdesj wrote:
| Engineering degree or and science based degree. Learn critical
| thinking.
|
| Directly IT related - Novell used to offer what they described as
| "practicum" exams for their SLES (Linux) offerings. These were
| web based and you literally did sysadmin stuff on VMs - configure
| users, set up a web server, SAMBA, DNS etc and then the system
| would mark you. Beats the crap out of memory tests like the old
| MCSEs and the VMWARE VCP bollocks. I recall quicky getting Apache
| to serve /usr/share/documentation to help me out.
|
| Nowadays I employ people and I am not predisposed to any form of
| excitement about memory test type exams and qualis on CVs
| (Resumes). I may sit you down in front of something bloody
| expensive and complicated and ask you do do something with it ...
| pcmoney wrote:
| Imagine choosing between someone with a CS degree vs someone
| without a CS degree and think which you would prefer to do SWE
| work for you all else equal.
|
| CS degree every time right?
|
| Now imagine both candidates had the exact same career trajectory.
| Say 6 YOE, couple years at a FAANG recently, but the non-CS
| candidate was promoted there etc. which do you prefer now?
|
| Probably the non-CS degree holder. They have proven they can do
| the work and advance by their self-starter mindset, skill and
| hustle alone without "appeals to authority"/certification.
|
| Once people have proven they can do the job for real,
| certification matters less. While some industries make it a box
| you have to check, tech mostly doesn't.
|
| Dont wast your time unless you can't get a foot in the door
| without a cert.
| Larrikin wrote:
| I've never heard of a CS degree being a negative in any
| situation outside of someone with a chip on their shoulder
| about college degrees in general. The person in your example
| with the degree would still win out in most situations.
|
| The person with experience versus a new graduate degree holder
| is the actual head to head where the non degree holder has a
| much better chance.
| pcmoney wrote:
| So the person who has proven they can do the work and get
| promoted in the same career path is less valuable than the CS
| degree holder (who in this example, did not achieve as much
| over the same time period) just because they have a degree?
|
| This has never been the case in any org promo committee or
| hiring committee I have been a part of (100s of candidates).
|
| I would say in most orgs after 3 years of proven track record
| the degree benefit has fully depreciated. Unless the degree
| is an advanced degree and related directly to a niche
| subfield that is the job.
|
| Not saying the degree is a negative just that its signaling
| factor is dwarfed by experience. n^2 vs cn
| poofsoda wrote:
| Oh interesting I misunderstood your comment. I thought
| "exact same career trajectory" meant the only difference
| was the degree. I'm not the user you replied to but I can
| see how 1) two people with exact same career trajectory but
| one has a CS degree results in the degree holder being
| preferred, and 2) two people, one of which has a CS degree
| with a less accomplished career and the other of which has
| been promoted/demonstrated greater accomplishments results
| in the non-degree holder being preferred.
| xeromal wrote:
| Your example actually made me think of the opposite
| situation lol.
| dzuc wrote:
| As a predominantly frontend web person, I've been wondering if an
| accessibility (IAAP?) certification is worth it -- if anyone has
| any experience with that?
| imwillofficial wrote:
| CISSP gets me a decent amount of respect, Security+ opened the
| door to gov contracting.
|
| From VMware to Cisco to all the other 25+ certs, wasn't worth it,
| but learned a lot so maybe worth it?
| rob_c wrote:
| Far too many people are needing a security qualification to be
| taken seriously by senior management.
|
| I'm very clear when I say senior management because not
| everything has to have +TLS. But when your management get the
| speak from the "security certified" guy they stop listening to
| you and delegate.
|
| With that in mind SANS. And I feel sorry for saying most of it.
| When your a seasoned Unix admin you shouldn't need a Windows
| wireshark certification about diamond team picking up your
| internal site traffic containing open secrets, but management
| thinks so...
| chelmzy wrote:
| I don't have any despite studying the material for a lot of them.
| I hate the entire cert industry and actively discourage it. It
| hasn't hindered me yet with my career path. Although, I'm pretty
| open with employers that I don't believe in certs and will never
| get one. I will however study the material they produce if its
| worthwhile.
| wodenokoto wrote:
| I used to work as a cloud consultant, building client
| applications in GCP.
|
| Certainly from Google was valued quite high by clients.
| keeptrying wrote:
| Having gone to one of the best schools in India has certainly
| helped me.
| colangelod wrote:
| I'm, going to echo a bit of whats in the comments to robcohen's
| post but the single most productive cert I hold is my pilots
| license. I do not fly for a living, Im a software engineer
| (mostly). I hold other certs, some technical, others non
| technical both work related and non work related by a sizable
| margin my PPL is the the most productive:
|
| Back story: when I started working for my self my first client
| was a pilot, he encouraged me to get my PPL or at least do a demo
| flight. I did an intro flight and was instantly hooked. 3 years
| later I had a PPL, Instrument Rating, High Performance and
| Complex checkouts. One of the best experiences I have ever had, I
| was fresh out of college, had a few bucks in my pocket and not
| many obligations. Anyway heres why its been great:
|
| - I have found there are basically three types of people that bum
| around private airports where general aviation ops occur. 1)
| people successful enough to afford to fly private jets or
| charters when they need 2) people successful enough to OWN their
| own plane. 3) People who are liable to become types 1 and 2. In
| general pilots are a nice bunch and a talkative bunch. Ive met
| some really great people (read business connections) just by
| lurking around the airport. That first client I had, had lots of
| similar buddies who were pilots that I got to meet etc. etc. By
| far the most productive business networking I have EVER done
| occurred near an aircraft.
|
| - Flying keeps you sharp in all aspects and it WILL change the
| way you look at things. It keeps you sharp on doing paperwork,
| sharp on staying current on a topic, sharp on thinking ahead of
| things, sharp on staying in at least some sort of decent physical
| shape. I have built a lot of productive habits in my life to
| ensure I can fly.
|
| - It hones your decision making skills, a lot....
|
| - It re-shapes how you view getting around and enabling your
| business/work. Both pre and post pandemic life. Meeting with
| client within 500 miles, Im not dealing with trains or regional
| jets, im coming and going as I need. This has enabled same day
| travel, taking meetings i normally wouldn't have and being able
| to generally buy time back.
|
| - Putting my PPL on my resume has been the best talking point,
| stand out item, liner note I have ever had.
|
| - Its just good fun.
| rgrieselhuber wrote:
| Haven't done any myself but when I hire people I generally treat
| them as a net positive for people early in their career because
| it gives them exposure to concepts that are relevant, but for
| more senior people it wouldn't matter at our company.
| [deleted]
| erung88 wrote:
| Certification is primarily for IT consultant. Banks, insurance
| companies hire a lot of IT consultants through IT service
| providers (e.g. Tata, Accenture).
|
| How can they tell if the IT consultants are qualified for the
| work? Certification is one way to ensure they at least meet the
| minimum requirement but this is not to say the certification
| implies the IT consultants have the skill sets or knowledge to do
| the job.
| entwife wrote:
| The USPTO registration exam is difficult to pass, and is helpful
| for starting in the patent field. Because it doesn't require
| updating, it isn't in itself valuable if you don't have a patents
| practice.
| tgtweak wrote:
| Getting certifications on a technology you want to work with will
| help companies hiring those positions find you and increase your
| odds vs a candidate that doesn't have them.
|
| If you want something that will tangibly raise your prospects -
| look into clearances instead of certifications. These will open
| you up to a segment of the market that has less competition. I
| have a few colleagues that got two levels of clearance during
| university and they were immediately hired upon graduation.
| kentosi wrote:
| Depends on the stage of your career.
|
| Back in the early 2000s when I was fresh out of university I did
| the Sun Certified Java Developer course. It made me stand out of
| the vast number of other graduates looking to get into the
| industry. I landed an awesome job straight away.
|
| My advice would be to get 1 or 2 meaningful ones if you really
| want them. Avoid littering your resume with a bunch of
| certificates, since that adds a negative bias I find.
| tboyd47 wrote:
| The Andrew Ng certification on Coursera for Machine Learning give
| me all the skills I needed to start my own ML projects. It is
| excellent.
| giaour wrote:
| OP is asking about _certifications_ , which you generally get
| for passing a test. Coursera gives you _certificates_ , which
| are a record of having taken and passed one or more courses.
| the_common_man wrote:
| CCIE is still gold
| vasco wrote:
| Red Hat, Linux Foundation (k8s mostly), AWS certifications will
| generally be a positive signal for me (engineering manager,
| interviewing about 50 people a year, seeing many more CVs).
|
| I've personally gotten a couple and thought they provided good
| structure to the learning and so I also advise them to engineers
| we hire if they want to learn k8s and don't know where to start.
| knorker wrote:
| CCIE is the only one I've seen respected.
| QuarterRoy wrote:
| Early in my career I stacked up certs. I'd usually get ones that
| were relevant to projects I was working on. I'd find sometimes
| (again earlier in my career) that I needed a combination of
| structured learning to complement concepts in large projects I
| was working on at the time.
|
| This led to more responsibility and more pay but it took a lot of
| my own time. As I'm senior in my career now I sometimes wonder if
| it was worth it as a trade off for all of the certifications I
| earned.
| sshine wrote:
| Education, job experience, provable skill set.
|
| Software development and certificates seems like it's not a
| perfect fit.
|
| If it were for an industry that is heavily regulated,
| certificates make a lot of sense.
|
| They're like small exams in highly domain-specific knowledge.
|
| Having ISO/IEC 27001, for example, for legal/compliance reasons.
| ipaddr wrote:
| I'm still looking to use my MongoDB certification.
| speedgoose wrote:
| But, do you really want to work with MongoDB?
| ipaddr wrote:
| No but it seemed useful in 2016.
| speedgoose wrote:
| I agree, we were many to bet on this horse.
| joeax wrote:
| I got a $10,000 raise and a $1,000 bonus for passing the GCP
| exam. All this for 3 weeks of studying in my spare time and 2
| hours at a test center.
| 0xbadc0de5 wrote:
| Certifications are certainly no substitute for experience and
| competence but can help you get a foot in the door if you're just
| starting out. I've always been moderately skeptical of security
| certifications (CEH, CISSP, etc) as in my experience, they are
| more often than not a negative indicator of competence for
| anything beyond junior level.
| eranation wrote:
| As a hiring manager, I treat AWS certification (professional
| especially) as relatively a good heuristic. It does not replace
| hands-on experience of course, but it has good correlation with
| good hands-on ability.
|
| Another one that will catch my eye is any Kubernetes
| certification.
|
| Both are great additions to experience, the certification itself
| has much less value standalone, but it might be the edge that
| will help someone get that entry level job.
|
| (These are common for DevOps engineers, but a SWE with the above
| will have an edge in my book)
| bawolff wrote:
| Wow interesting. I got the security specialist one (work wanted
| me to and they agreed to pay for it). It was almost entirely
| memorizing what amazon product name corresponds to what generic
| name. And a bit about ACLs. I was left feeling it had basically
| nothing to do with my job or relavent skills.
| geoduck14 wrote:
| I have a couple of AWS certs. They really helped me when I went
| to the AWS conference and got some great swag
| rowanajmarshall wrote:
| I got the _best_ multi-adapter charger at AWS Summit London
| thanks to my cert.
| hanly_paul wrote:
| Yes! That was the best bit of swag in the whole place.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| Might the above be generalized into "The best use of
| certificates is to reduce uncertainty, for the hirer"?
|
| I.e. A SWE with a SWE cert says nothing, because you'd _expect_
| them to know it. But a SWE with a DevOps cert says something,
| versus just claiming knowledge.
| mjul wrote:
| I remember someone back in the day - perhaps Microsoft -
| advertising their certs as "so THEY know that YOU know".
| ethbr0 wrote:
| My impression is that every cert seller markets as though
| the world believed "You dont know it, unless you're
| certified in it."
|
| My impression is that the world actually believes "You can
| be certified in something without knowing it."
|
| So at best, from an applicant / employee's perspective,
| certificates are a _slightly_ stronger suggestion that you
| might know the thing you claim to know.
|
| Which is a useless reinforcement for something for which
| you already have demonstrated experience via work history.
|
| But might be useful for something for which you do not.
| deadbunny wrote:
| Maybe I'm just unlucky but I've come across far to many
| people who have certs but are utterly useless at their job.
| MichaelMoser123 wrote:
| As a hiring manager, what is your course of action if someone
| doesn't have any of these? Do you reject a candidate due to a
| lack of certification?
| eranation wrote:
| Not at all, I would never reject someone for lack of any
| formal paper (degree, certificate), but if I have more
| resumes than time to phone screen them all, an AWS /
| Kubernetes certification is definitely a tie breaker for
| otherwise two similar candidates.
| datavirtue wrote:
| This doesn't answer the question by OP at all. You just listed
| two recent trendy certs.
| badrabbit wrote:
| I don't want to list a specific cert since the name of holders is
| public but GIAC certs (and SANS training) have been the most
| useful to me. They are very expensive and most people need a
| company to sponsor them as a result and also some in the industry
| complain about how them for one reason or the other but
| personally it isn't so much in terms of memorizing random facts
| or gaining some very deep insight but being exposed to very
| technical material and practical and current industry practices
| and knowledge. I think a lot of the critique is due to wrong
| expectations. You're not gonna become a threat intel expert or
| malware analyst because you took a sans/giac cert but it would be
| similar to taking a post-grad university course on the subject.
| They are also very vendor neutral and open source friendly. Their
| instructors are well recognized and accomplished in their
| respective fields.
|
| Security aside, CCNA has to be the most valuable IT
| certification. They are cisco specific but the sheer amount of
| knowledge you need to understand for it and the foot-in-the-door
| opportunity is extremely valuable.
|
| OSCP as well as others have noted.
| jpambrun wrote:
| I have a PhD so I may be biased towards formal education, but I
| do review resume often and find certifications to be of no value,
| lame even. I had very poor performing colleagues with many
| certifications and they were very proud about it. Doesn't bode
| confidence at all.
|
| When I see certifications on a resume, I see it as a negative.
| StopHammoTime wrote:
| Depends where you want to work. If you're looking to get into
| consulting, specifically related to vendors then it's a guarantee
| to win. Most vendors will require their authorised
| resellers/consultants to have a certain amount of certified
| staff. AWS comes to mind as the most obvious, but I'm sure this
| is the case with other cloud vendors.
|
| For a "normal" business that is more of a customer to vendors,
| nah not really. Your experience is worth far more than your
| certifications. The only place it might get you somewhere is
| Government, although expectations are low there so you can get
| away with associate-level certifications and seem amazing.
| myrloc wrote:
| I acquired several AWS certs early in my career. The
| understanding of AWS I developed through studying has helped me
| significantly in developing products at startups. I would highly
| recommend getting the networking specialization; it's the hardest
| but perhaps the most important when it comes to understanding one
| of the most complex aspects of AWS.
| osigurdson wrote:
| The industry currently wants competitive programmers. Obviously
| no certification is necessary but that is the best place to spend
| your time.
| Naga wrote:
| I have a bachelor of arts in history, most of a bachelor of
| commerce and the CPA designation.
|
| I was into programming and computers when I was a kid and in high
| school but for whatever reason I decided I didn't want to study
| computer science. Ended up in an arts program, which I graduated
| from and reached the top of my career path nearly immediately by
| getting a minimum wage job at a bookstore. I went back to school
| for accounting and became an auditor at a public accounting firm.
| I made it to manager, burnt out, and decided that I'd explore
| other options. I ended up with a consulting side gig at a startup
| using both my tech and accounting knowledge, and now my primary
| job is in finance process transformation/automation.
|
| Looking back, it looks like my career path was tailor-made for
| the position I'm in now. I use all my education - arts has made
| me a good communicator, researcher, accounting has given me good
| technical and management skills. This is just the narrative
| fallacy at work though, I had no idea what I was doing along the
| way (and still don't!).
|
| Public accounting and CPA has been fantastic at teaching me how
| businesses work inside and out, and is very valuable for what I
| do now. I don't know if I'd recommend it for everyone, but
| studying accounting itself is probably a good idea for anyone
| working in management or finance.
| mudrockbestgirl wrote:
| This will not apply to all companies, but for our hiring
| decisions certs have an adverse effect. If someone puts many
| certifications on their resume my expectations are lower and I
| likely won't consider them for interviews. It's a negative signal
| in my experience. Your time is better spent working on side
| projects, contributing to open source, writing a blog, etc. I.e.
| do real-world stuff instead of wasting time on artificial tests
| that require memorization and exist largely as a revenue stream
| for certification providers.
| ricksebak wrote:
| > Your time is better spent working on side projects,
| contributing to open source, writing a blog, etc. I.e. do real-
| world stuff
|
| Just FYI that at some companies, collecting certificates is
| indeed real world stuff. Some companies use it for marketing
| ("we have the most certifications in the industry") and some
| need to to satisfy vendor partner requirements ("AWS Premier
| Partners are required to have X number of certificates"). It
| doesn't seem fair to penalize a candidate just because they did
| what their company asked for.
| noirbot wrote:
| Sure, but my question would be, are you, as the resume
| writer, more proud of the cert you got via your work or of
| the work you did at work? I've done cert stuff before as part
| of my job, but it never rose to the level of being relevant
| to put on my resume over other things I did.
|
| My rule is always to only put something on my resume if I
| could talk for 2-3 minutes about it in a way that makes me
| look good/useful. Most of my certs, the only real thing I
| could say is "I spent 10-30 hours watching videos and then
| took a test well." I wouldn't really want to work for a
| company that valued those skills vs. me explaining how I
| applied the things I learned from the cert.
| bawolff wrote:
| I have also seen this. A large number of certs on a resume
| (more than 4) is the most consistent negative signal i have
| seen.
|
| I assume part of the reason is that certs are expensive and not
| well respected, so the only reason you would get them is if you
| had no other options.
| grepfru_it wrote:
| Is this recent? I held every cert under the sun in the 2000s
| and companies GOBBLED ME UP. In the early 2010s I could walk
| into companies by simply having a VCP cert. I'm sure if I
| held a K8s or some hashicorp cert, or AWS or Azure certs I
| would be pulled into any org hiring today. And I put all of
| my certs on my resume (that I can fit with most recent
| first).
|
| I should also clarify, I only put certs that matter (why put
| an Azure cert on a resume submission to an AWS shop) and
| certs that are recent (I have 20 years on my resume, why
| would i put my CCNA on there). I think a large number of
| irrelevant certs would be a negative signal. I think a large
| number of relevant certs AND job history to back them up
| would be a super strong signal.
| bawolff wrote:
| Idk, i haven't been in the industry long enough to compare.
| Also, i work in security (in north america and not gov),
| maybe other areas are more pro-cert.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| I also disagree with your first comment. Large amounts of
| difficult certs have never been a negative signal and
| I've been doing this for like 20 years. Especially in
| cyber security where a wide breadth of various knowledge
| is needed, certs can really help show who has the "full-
| stack" so to speak.
|
| That being said, 20+ CompTIA cents isn't going to move
| the needle for me.
|
| I say all that to say "it depends on the cert"
| evgen wrote:
| Actually cyber security is one area where a lot of certs
| are a strong negative signal. They basically broadcast
| course-taking and cert-chasing over real world
| experience. If you have an OSCP cert I will treat that as
| a potentially good signal, but if your CV includes CISSP
| I will walk in to an interview with low expectations and
| if it has CEH or similar wastes of time the recruiting
| lead would have known to filter the CV out so that I do
| not even see it. This if for FAANG environments though,
| so maybe if you are aiming for a corporate cube farm in a
| smaller market other certs will be useful. Just not with
| me.
| 2snakes wrote:
| SANS certs? CCIE? GSE? OSEE?
| imwillofficial wrote:
| OSCP vs CISSP is a ridiculous line to draw, they cover
| very different job types.
|
| I don't know what jobs you're hiring for, if any, I
| simply don't see how more data is a negative signal.
|
| I think that's silly.
|
| I disagree with the entirety of your reply, except for
| the CEH zinger ;)
| bawolff wrote:
| I think that's fair. I more saw it as the 20+ comptia
| certs.
| BossingAround wrote:
| It's a response to large number of people who know very
| little and want to compensate with memorizing stuff and
| passing certificates without deeper understanding of what
| they're doing.
|
| It's kind of a stupid response, especially considering that
| the same people would most likely view 10+ certs on your CV
| as a positive if your name is western-sounding...
| native_samples wrote:
| I remember many years ago, Google internally knew that one
| of the only signals obtainable from CVs was the negative
| signal from number of certs. I don't think this knowledge
| was actually used for anything, it was just a correlation,
| but yeah it's sort of an open secret in the business that
| the sort of people who get lots of certifications do very
| badly when asked to demonstrate actual technical skills.
| hijinks wrote:
| as someone in Devops/SRE I hold the same thinking as you.
| Whenever I see an interview come in loaded with certs, I
| automatically think they just know how to take tests and study
| for them.
|
| It's almost 100% that they fail the interview because they
| don't know how to put the learning into real world solutions.
| yakak wrote:
| Perhaps they get enough interviews where the cert is accepted
| that it isn't worth their time to review these technologies
| ahead of interviews.
| bad416f1f5a2 wrote:
| I find this take funny.
|
| My past company had a huge pile of credits for certs because
| they valued them and I figured "I've been working with AWS;
| why not?" I didn't study or prepare at all and went in using
| only the hands-on knowledge I picked up over my career.
|
| I came out with all the associate certs, the AWS solutions
| architect pro, and their network specialty.
|
| As a hiring manager I find certs to be a neutral indicator:
| you at least have to know the material to get them, but
| plenty of people learn the material hands-on, not from books.
| 988747 wrote:
| Also, sometimes companies will force employees to get
| certified for many reasons. My own company was recently
| looking to renew their Gold Partnership with Microsoft and
| so they were looking for victims to get Microsoft
| certified, because, apparently, that's the requirement for
| partnership.
|
| As for why companies need such partnership: it speaks well
| to managerial types, therefore helps win contracts.
| joeax wrote:
| That's funny, because I've always felt the opposite when
| evaluating candidates. If a candidate comes in saying certs are
| "trash" and "pointless" it usually looks less favorable. It
| signals an unwilling to learn and/or strive for continuous
| improvement. Certs are not the end all/be all but they help
| round our your knowledge and open your eyes to things you never
| knew.
|
| As far as side-projects and open source contributions, this is
| a two way street. When I look at side projects, I look for how
| well you are utilizing best practices in your code. If it's a
| sloppy, poorly documented mess it doesn't look favorably for
| you. If you use your side projects as a marketing tool they
| should be well-polished.
| badrabbit wrote:
| abeyer wrote:
| Your frustration is at least understandable, but personal
| attacks because you disagree with someone's hiring process
| are not appropriate, not helpful, and just going to make it
| even harder for you to get hired if anyone in a decision
| making role sees them.
|
| I'll also echo what others have said, in that certs are
| commonly used by people trying to compensate for a lack of
| actual skills. That's not always true, but it is often enough
| that the correlation is bound to stick in people's minds even
| if they don't explicitly exclude applicants because of it. If
| you do have both a lot of certs _and_ solid skills and
| experience, then kudos -- but you may want to consider
| tailoring resumes and other materials to the jobs you apply
| to based on their applicability and expected reception.
| (That's generally good advice for anything, but particularly
| for things like this that could have both positive or
| negative connotations in different circumstances.)
| tpoacher wrote:
| then you should specify this in your job requirements so that
| people can remove them from their resume when applying.
|
| the candidate should not be penalised for trying to tick boxes
| that other people have set up.
|
| I got rejected from positions because I had a masters in
| computer science instead of an ECDL certificate. So I swallowed
| my pride and went and got one. Now, I'd agree with you that as
| an actual computer scientist, mentioning ECDL on my resume is
| embarrasing. But there you go, some HR departments have weird
| automated checklists, so I leave it in. I'd hate to then apply
| to someone like you who'd reject me because I had the nerve to
| list my ECDL certificate on my resume. It's a lose lose
| situation for everyone involved.
| tootie wrote:
| I consider side projects to be absolutely meaningless
| predictors of anything. A cert is a poor substitute for
| experience but it's a signal of someone willing to learn and
| grow through diligence. Side projects are usually just
| arbitrary in value. In the very rare case that someone has a
| real blockbuster side project with a lot of users I'd be
| concerned about how much time they'd spend on it. Getting a PR
| approved on a mainstream project would be impressive though.
| creativeCak3 wrote:
| Nice try, manager ;)
|
| We work on side projects because we __like__ it. Seeing side
| projects through the lense of "value" is naive in my opinion.
| Yes, obviously if the side project has actual users than
| that's a plus. But companies like seeing side projects
| because it __does__ show that the candidate really likes what
| they do for a living. Now whether the company is purposefully
| using that to expect people to work 60 hours a week is a
| different discussion. And while I'll probably ruffle some
| feathers by saying this, I'll say it; software is a sport.
| Very much like a sport, if you stop doing it then you'll get
| fat and lose your touch. People that work on side projects
| are constantly honing their craft and because of that they
| tend to be the best athletes.
|
| If I owned a baseball team, I sure as hell want the best. And
| in my humble opinion, the best are usually __always__ working
| on getting better at the game. AKA working on side projects
| ;)
|
| EDIT:Just want to clarify; it is WRONG of a company to expect
| people to work 60 hours a week. Just so we are in the same
| page. I am NOT condoning that.
| tootie wrote:
| Value doesn't need to be monetary. Just having fun is
| something valuable. I'm saying that 99% of the "side
| projects" I see are junior devs who think they can't apply
| for a job without a bunch of things on GitHub.
| dtjb wrote:
| >Your time is better spent working on side projects
|
| This seems like a shaky assumption. Keep in mind that many
| companies, like mine, sponsor or even mandate the certification
| process. Meaning the justification, time, and costs didn't come
| from the candidate you're dismissing.
| johnchristopher wrote:
| I don't see how writing a blog post is superior to a CCNA/CCNP
| lab test but okay (ACTUALLY NO, IT'S NOT OKAY).
| csydas wrote:
| I wouldn't dismiss certs that fast as from my experience hiring
| for technical roles, it's a wash. I've had people with more
| certs than braincells, and people with certs that I loved and
| wanted on my team immediately.
|
| It at least gave me something to talk about more directly
| because I can have some expectation on tech they've worked
| with.
|
| I personally don't chase certs for myself because I don't see
| the point, but I find them as fairly okay talking points on a
| CV. And it's hard to argue any interview unfairness since the
| cert should imply certain levels of familiarity with a
| technology.
|
| Edit: I do need to add that the cert concern was a real thing
| in our company but after some analysis, we sadly found some
| biases from the interviewers as they only considered certs for
| certain candidates to be a negative signal. I put a stop to
| that fast reminding people of candidates from more western
| countries with gobs of certs, and they legit didn't know their
| ass from their head, much less how to do anything besides press
| the button the manual said to press.
| btown wrote:
| To this point, occasionally you'll come across candidates who
| have obtained certs in part because _that is the way they
| were trained to learn_ in their specific personal & cultural
| context - but the reason _why_ they chose to learn so much in
| the first place? It might be indicative of a true,
| passionate, focus-seeking curiosity that would make them a
| fantastic team member. And perhaps they hadn 't had the
| opportunity to work in a place that treats learning and
| growth as a holistic part of the job. These people can become
| culture carriers in a tremendously positive way.
|
| It's part of the reason I try to make "cover paragraphs" (not
| necessarily full cover letters) an important part of every
| application - it's important to give people the opportunity
| to let their passion shine through at the earliest parts of a
| process.
| csydas wrote:
| I get what you're saying and I think this is true for a lot
| of people, but hear me out.
|
| I actually rarely read too deeply into the CV except as a
| source for some talking points. I have a phenomenal
| recruitment team so I rarely need to "guess" on a candidate
| from a CV (truly, they are exceptional and they really get
| what my team is looking for and our candidates love them
| also cause the recruiters took a lot of time to learn
| enough to talk competently about our tech scope) If my
| recruiters pass me a candidate, the candidate is at least
| good enough to bullshit fairly competently.
|
| We structure our interviews to be very conversational --
| the same points are always hit and we have a loose grading
| structure, but mostly the goal is to get the candidates to
| talk about problems and explain their thoughts really well.
| I do feel bad, because I can tell some put a ton of effort
| into their CV, but I rarely pay that much attention to it
| besides ctrl+f for some subjects I want to talk about or
| looking for a few keywords outside of our core competencies
| just to see how they talk about these edge cases.
|
| Passion is good, but for me, passion shines through during
| the interview and the conversation and how they love to
| talk about what they work on. Even with the most nervous
| candidates, we've taken a lot of time to practice just
| being approachable and interested, which helps even the
| shyest candidates really open up. I know I had one
| candidate pretty recently where they were quite shy (and
| also interviewing in a second language, not their primary
| so lots of stress there). It took a little bit, but by the
| end of the interview, they were blushing red with pride and
| smiling uncontrollably with how proud of themselves they
| were for answering really tough questions and scenarios we
| had for them. (and they knocked it out of the park for a
| DevOps position, I don't think I've been so happy with a
| candidate in awhile)
|
| I wish we got this for every candidate; their passion gets
| tapped and just suddenly I see someone gushing about their
| favorite topic.
| javajosh wrote:
| This is also my experience. However, I would say something like
| Amazon's certifications _may_ be useful if your company has
| gone all-in on AWS. Amazon (and GCP and Azure) have such a huge
| variety of offerings, and it 's _something_ that Amazon is
| asserting this person is at least familiar with what these
| things are and how they fit together, and the trade-offs. On-
| the-job study is, in general, not going to be good enough to
| get a _comprehensive_ understanding like that, and a cert
| course makes a lot of sense.
|
| I suppose if there was a reasonably trusted organization that
| could give the same cert for "front-end javascript", that would
| be good too, since there would be great value in surveying at
| least the major features of the current js landscape. (Probably
| not practical given the breadth and depth and dynamism of the
| space, plus the ambiguity of selection. And also, not sure what
| org would or could do this!)
| ElemenoPicuares wrote:
| Be careful about the bias in single-metric gatekeeping
| strategies like this. Contributing to open source projects,
| having side projects, et al are pursuits of leisure.
| Certificates are possibly the only foot in the door for folks
| working multiple jobs with kids, etc. and the government often
| pays the tuition for low income folks. Once you've got them,
| even if you're more established, it would be crazy to leave
| them off of your resume, right?
|
| Not only could you be bypassing people passionate enough to
| work their way into the field through pretty adverse
| circumstances, you could be inadvertently reducing the
| diversity of your workforce in doing so. I know it's tough to
| have to whittle down a list of candidates on paper, but the
| closer you are to judging a person's path rather than their
| capability, the more likely you'll be to favor people who
| mirror your cultural identity and experiences. So if someone
| looks like they've got the requisite skills. It certainly
| doesn't mean everybody with a pile of certs is worth
| considering, but it's probably not a good immediate
| disqualifier.
| bawolff wrote:
| > Once you've got them, even if you're more established, it
| would be crazy to leave them off of your resume, right?
|
| Not necccesarily. Depending on the cert and field it may make
| sense to.
|
| The goal of getting the cert should be to learn skills. If
| you've done that, the piece of paper doesn't matter.
|
| > Not only could you be bypassing people passionate enough to
| work their way into the field through pretty adverse
| circumstances, you could be inadvertently reducing the
| diversity of your workforce in doing so
|
| The people with all the certs still got interviewed where i
| worked last, it was just a consistent pattern that they
| bombed the interview, usually very badly on very basic
| questions.
| ElemenoPicuares wrote:
| If you've got a few certs and two jobs under your belt that
| you got because of those certs, how would anyone imagine
| that those certs would prevent them from getting jobs? For
| people with traditional industry on-ramping, it might seem
| intuitive that someone would want to _hide_ these certs
| from people for their lack of prestige. To others, hiding
| your only officially-recognized qualifications seems
| absolutely ridiculous.
| mirekrusin wrote:
| Are you sure those were verified? It used to shock me that
| people who put on cv "5 years" of programming experience in
| language X could not write switch statement in it, not
| anymore. Certifications like CKA can be verified online,
| cvs should include verification link; CKA/CKAD expires
| after 3 years, CKS after 2 years so it's physically
| impossible to have too many of certificates like this.
| zdragnar wrote:
| > Once you've got them, even if you're more established, it
| would be crazy to leave them off of your resume, right?
|
| Recruiters and hiring managers go through so many resumes,
| the last thing you want is to have someone looking for a
| programmer to read about your basket weaving skills.
|
| My strategy has always been to tailor the bulk of the resume
| to the job I'm applying for. Bring everything else up during
| the interview if there's natural time to do so, because
| that's where they want to see who you are.
| ElemenoPicuares wrote:
| We're talking about relevant certs, here.
| badrabbit wrote:
| Completley agree with you. My reply was way too
| harsh/emotional. There are many companies that offer skill
| based pre-interview tests, tossing out resumes based on
| qualifications is not just silly but a liability and a sign
| of incompetence. The worst hiring managers are reductionists
| that act on instincts and prejudice.
| smoe wrote:
| I think how many certs and how up-center in your cv you put
| them matters.
|
| E.g. if I'm hiring for a junior dev and get some self-taught
| person having done a couple of relevant online courses and so
| far managed to get a tech support role looking to become a
| programmer I'm often interested in talking to them.
|
| On the other hand, I have seen cv's from senior
| enterprise/government engineers, 10 pages long, plastered all
| over with certs, titles, abbreviations, version numbers, iso
| standards, etc. and I have absolutely no idea what they
| actually did or achieved in their prior jobs even when
| googling a dozen terms. They might be great in the context
| they are working in, but they are from experience not a great
| fit for the context I'm hiring for.
| ElemenoPicuares wrote:
| The problem you describe is a resume design problem rather
| than a cert problem. Would you know what they could do if
| they merely left the certs off of the resume? I'd guess
| not.
|
| It sounds like you were looking at a federal resume which
| are differently structured and much, much longer than
| private sector resumes. Candidates appreciate feedback
| letting them know: "Thanks for applying but I can't suss
| out what you can actually do based on what you sent. Feel
| free to reapply with a more concise, descriptive resume."
|
| If they've worked in the federal government that long, they
| might just not realize how inappropriate their resume is
| for private sector jobs even if they're qualified. If they
| can't course correct and describe their skills in common
| business language, that's a good enough indicator of their
| ability to adapt to the position, I'd say.
| mudrockbestgirl wrote:
| I agree with you in principle, but it's difficult to draw the
| line when the hiring process needs to be practical. We can't
| interview everyone and perfect recall isn't necessary. My
| experience from dozens of interviews has been that many
| certifications are a rather strong negative signal, at least
| for our standard software/data engineering roles. I'm sure
| there are many exceptions to this, but I'll happily miss out
| on 1-2 good candidates if that means I can filter out 50 bad
| ones using the same signal.
|
| Of course it's never a binary decision and the complete
| picture of the resume matters. For example, if someone got a
| bunch of certs 20 years ago when they started their career
| that doesn't have any negative impact. But more often, people
| try to use certs and MOOCs to pad their resume and hope use
| them to hide the fact that they lack real work experience.
| ElemenoPicuares wrote:
| I hear you and have been in your shoes. Hiring is hard, and
| the steps to hire people ethically are pretty nebulous,
| which makes it much harder. Especially when the outcome
| would be the same in many cases, it does seem awfully
| impractical.
|
| But that's the problem with bias in general, though-- It's
| _always_ a matter of practicality. It 's been some time
| since most discrimination deliberately stymied people with
| a background or makeup the dominant culture considered
| objectionable. These days it hides in the subconscious
| mechanisms governing the purportedly rational
| generalizations we rely on when lacking time and resources
| to properly investigate something.
|
| I don't think it's anybody's _fault_ -- it's a bug in our
| brains and we can't control that. I do think we're
| ethically obligated to push back when practical
| requirements compel us to make those generalizations. If we
| expect police to do it when someone may or may not be
| pulling a gun out of their pocket, we should certainly
| expect ourselves to do it when we've got a queue of resumes
| to process.
| dilDDoS wrote:
| > do real-world stuff instead of wasting time on artificial
| tests that require memorization
|
| Interesting, since the majority of tech interviews (from what
| I've gathered) rely on artificial tests that require
| memorization.
|
| I'm not disagreeing, I also think real world experience is
| infinitely more valuable. But it seems like certs could
| actually be an indicator that a candidate would perform quite
| well in LC style interviews.
| noirbot wrote:
| It's a bit glib to say that even the most leetcode interviews
| "require memorization". It's certainly possible to do most of
| them from "memorized" first principles of how various bits of
| CS components work instead of brute-force memorizing, and in
| general even when I do code problems on interviews, I mostly
| try to use them to either demonstrate that or determine that
| the candidate actually understands WHY you would do things
| that way.
|
| Certs on the other hand are often just pure memorization.
| There's not really any way to "infer" which AWS service name
| matches to which service function. You either know the name
| of the API call or you don't. It doesn't provide much signal
| that you actually know how to apply that information to
| anything practical.
|
| Even at their worst, most crappy whiteboard code interviews
| are still literally testing if you can literally write
| functional code, which is closer to what you do on the job
| than memorizing the Cisco books.
| newsclues wrote:
| Instructor training.
|
| Learning to teach, forced me to learn how people learn and that
| was invaluable.
|
| I have a certificate on how to teach sailing but never got a real
| job doing so, but the experience has applied to every job since.
| sys_64738 wrote:
| An undergrad Computer Science degree and drivers license is
| pretty much the key.
| oneplane wrote:
| There is no singular "get this proof and you'll be better off for
| it". You can get a cert that says you are the best at a thing in
| the world but without any applied experience it'll be hard to be
| valuable. The same goes for having a lot of experience 'doing
| stuff' but no common vocabulary or standards making collaboration
| really hard.
|
| If you have long-term experience and a base 'proof' of knowing
| how to work together, you have a solid foundation and everything
| else is just time and putting in the work (unless you want to get
| into some old boys network which isn't based on skills but on
| some form of heritage, be it family or a specific institute to
| attend).
|
| If you get some fundaments for compsci at any college and then
| work for 5 years going from application administration to system
| administration to cloud native development you'll have the same
| solid impression as starting at the helpdesk, getting an AWS cert
| and working your way up from junior AWS engineer to medior AWS
| engineer.
|
| Keep in mind that none of this gets you FAANG level work because
| they get a large enough pool of applicants where they can just
| filter anyone who doesn't have a combination of high grades and
| university or lots of experience in a highly specialised field.
|
| Besides that, like others wrote: "advertising" what certs you
| have collected is like advertising what Pokemon you collected.
| tamrix wrote:
| Certificates say, I've read the manual. Solving the problem is
| much different.
| tharne wrote:
| I find the more a given employer cares about certifications and
| credentials, the less interesting and less pleasant the place is
| to work.
| can16358p wrote:
| I find similarity between certs and having a good GPA/being from
| a good college.
|
| Some people go for that. I've never been that type of a guy (my
| grades were also low as I spent my time working on real world
| problems). I think it's not worth the time, given that you use
| that time for actually having some hands on experience in real
| world.
|
| If you can prove yourself in the field virtually no one would
| care about certs unless they are legally required to do so (e.g.
| You'd need a piloting license to fly an airplane (legally) even
| if you can perfectly fly)
| 0des wrote:
| red cross first aid and CPR
| leokennis wrote:
| Not sure if the actual certification is that important, but I'd
| recommend some thorough introductory course to IT service
| management / ITIL to everyone. It makes you way more effective in
| navigating more complex or bureaucratic organisations as you know
| a lot better what people's perspectives and wants are.
| Lapsa wrote:
| no
| AdrianB1 wrote:
| Never. I had a number of top certificates in the past, nobody
| ever asked about it even if they were very relevant to the jobs I
| had. The only ones ever useful were the Cisco network
| certifications that were required for some jobs, but even these
| became almost irelevant in the past 10 years.
|
| I see these days lots of certifications on LinkedIn. For the
| people that I know well, it is a mystery how they get it because
| it is usually the weakest in the team that gets certified, while
| the best people never do it.
| psyfi wrote:
| RHCSA
|
| Helped me get my first Systems Admin job
|
| PS: I don't have a degree
| seneca wrote:
| I do a lot of hiring and I dont particularly value them, except
| for near entry level jobs. Certifications rarely test real skills
| or indicate the ability to actually do a job. For low seniority
| roles they indicate dedication at least.
|
| Where they are useful is as a structured learning syllabus for
| entry level knowledge of a topic. If you know nothing about a
| topic but want to get into it, starting with a cert is a way to
| get the vocabulary and build a base to actually learn it from.
| WrtCdEvrydy wrote:
| AWS certs aren't too bad. Terraform is certainly cheap and
| useful.
| zhte415 wrote:
| IP6 certification! https://ipv6.he.net/certification/
| an9n wrote:
| In certain sectors in the UK e.g. defence they absolutely _love_
| certs.
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| The best certification is a CV with top tier companies.
| faangiq wrote:
| The AWS ones are cheap and I genuinely learned useful skills. Not
| helpful on my resume but certainly don't hurt either.
| protomyth wrote:
| Lack of a Masters pretty much ended my ability to teach some
| intro programming courses according to the accreditation board.
| So, the answer to the question in reverse. Damn shame given some
| future plans, but experience isn't the equivalent.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| Outside of money I have never seen a logical explanation for
| why we has a society have not created a purely experienced
| based "degree", something that if you have say 6 years
| experience in a field of Computer Science, and can demonstrate
| either with testing or work product the same level of knowledge
| one would gain from a 4 year degree program just issue the
| degree.
|
| Even with money, let me pay $10-20,000 , take a test, prove my
| experience, and bam I now have a degree...
|
| Do the same for masters, make it 8-10 years experience
| MaxBarraclough wrote:
| > if you have say 6 years experience in a field of Computer
| Science
|
| Such as what? An industry research position in computer
| science? Sounds very unlikely, but I suppose possible.
|
| Middle-of-the-road software development experience is not the
| equivalent of a degree in computer science, or software
| engineering, or anything else.
|
| (Interestingly, the University of Cambridge may award you a
| PhD if you're a Cambridge graduate who has made a PhD-level
| research contribution to an academic field. [0])
|
| If you have work experience, put it on your resume.
|
| > let me pay $10-20,000 , take a test
|
| What test? The full suite of coursework assignments and
| written exams for every module in a 3 or 4 year taught degree
| course?
|
| > Do the same for masters, make it 8-10 years experience
|
| 10 years experience of what? For a degree in what?
|
| You could have a long and successful web-dev career with
| almost zero knowledge of computer science.
|
| [0] https://www.cambridgestudents.cam.ac.uk/your-
| course/examinat...
| giaour wrote:
| > Even with money, let me pay $10-20,000 , take a test, prove
| my experience, and bam I now have a degree...
|
| The system you're proposing sounds ripe for abuse; wouldn't
| universities get the most money by lowering standards? You
| can get an honorary or _extra muros_ doctorate if you make a
| significant contribution to the field, but explicitly tying
| it to a fee doesn 't seem like a great plan.
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| The "univers" in university means something. A university
| degree is about more than just the knowledge gained in one's
| major. It's a signal that the person has had exposure to the
| breadth of human knowledge. It might be a millimeter deep but
| the breadth gives them context in which to operate in
| society. None of that means this knowledge can't be acquired
| individually, just like having a particular major doesn't
| preclude someone who didn't attend university from gaining
| that knowledge on their own. It's simply a signal that this
| particular bundle of knowledge has been seen and at least
| understood at a surface level. In theory that should allow
| those evaluating the candidate to skip over testing
| competency and knowledge in these areas outside of the job's
| focus but still relevant to functioning in society.
|
| Many schools will give credit for life experience, some
| through testing, some through interviews and reviews of one's
| professional work. IIRC, Western Governors University is one
| of the leaders in this practice.
| MaxBarraclough wrote:
| > A university degree is about more than just the knowledge
| gained in one's major. It's a signal that the person has
| had exposure to the breadth of human knowledge. It might be
| a millimeter deep but the breadth gives them context in
| which to operate in society.
|
| This may be true of the USA, but not universally. Here in
| the UK we don't have the concept of a _major_ at all. An
| undergraduate student typically only takes modules
| pertaining to their chosen field, and perhaps a small
| number of more general modules on, say, study skills and
| writing.
| bigDinosaur wrote:
| What would be the actual value of a 'degree' here as opposed
| to just the work experience? This sounds as much a reason to
| just ignore the idea of degrees as being uniquely meaningful
| which is...probably fine. But, degrees and work experience
| are not (or should not) be the same thing.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| Why? The stated purpose of a degree is to educate a person
| in field of study, the culmination of which is a piece of
| paper that is suppose to signify to society that you have
| attained a set level of knowledge in a field of study.
|
| Work experience can convey that same level of knowledge,
| thus the purpose of an experience based degree would be to
| signify to society that you have attained a set level of
| knowledge in a field of study.
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| Work experience can be difficult to evaluate, especially
| since most companies have no incentive to cooperate with
| the degree granting institution. In addition to the
| process consuming company resources, there may be
| sensitive business knowledge they don't want revealed.
| There's also the issue of turnover making knowledge of an
| employee's experience with the company very limited. Same
| for human memory decay or simply others in the company
| not knowing what the person was doing, even if it was
| valuable.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| While I can agree with that, I fail to see how this does
| not also apply to collegiate based education.
|
| Having interviewed several recent graduates the level of
| knowledge shown is not on par with what I would expect,
| it seems from my personal experience that college is more
| of an attendance standard than educational standards,
| what years ago we would call diploma mills, pay the fee,
| attend the class, get the degree, seems to the wider
| state of the "higher" education system today
| MaxBarraclough wrote:
| > Work experience can convey that same level of knowledge
|
| What kind of work experience would give you the breadth
| and depth of knowledge of someone with a degree in maths
| or physics?
|
| Having a career in software development does not
| demonstrate a degree-level knowledge of any academic
| field.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| Having a career in software development, does not
| demonstrate a degree-level knowledge of software
| development degree, really?
| giaour wrote:
| Certainly not in any standardized way. The variance
| between what someone does in one software development job
| vs another is just too high to be a good signal of any
| particular knowledge.
| MaxBarraclough wrote:
| A software engineering degree is an academic degree, not
| a vocational certificate.
|
| Look at this syllabus for a 4-year degree in software
| engineering. [0] It's broadly similar to what we'd expect
| of a computer science degree. Topics include:
|
| * Computer architecture
|
| * Compilers
|
| * Computer graphics
|
| * Cryptography
|
| * Deep learning
|
| * Software verification
|
| The average self-taught web developer has a working
| knowledge of none of these fields.
|
| [0]
| https://www.imperial.ac.uk/study/ug/courses/computing-
| depart...
| phpisthebest wrote:
| First I never said anything about web development...
|
| That said then there is a clear disconnect between
| employment, and degree's
|
| Employers often are requiring these "software
| engineering" degree's for basic level software
| development, and /or web development
|
| That is the the point of my comment, often time people
| feel required to spend 10's or 100's of thousands on a
| degree for the sole purpose of attaining employment as a
| software developer.
|
| If they are being educated in a way that does not prepare
| them for that job then the degree is less than worthless,
| and it an out right scam
| MaxBarraclough wrote:
| > I never said anything about web development
|
| You said software development. Self-taught software
| developers are very often web developers.
|
| > Employers often are requiring these "software
| engineering" degree's for basic level software
| development, and /or web development
|
| Suppose you're right that employers place undue emphasis
| on academic achievement compared to on-the-job software
| development experience. This would not be addressed by
| handing out honorary degrees wholesale.
|
| > If they are being educated in a way that does not
| prepare them for that job then the degree is less than
| worthless, and it an out right scam
|
| If it lets them start a software development career, it's
| not a waste.
|
| Also, again, a degree in computer science is not a
| vocational course like a coding boot camp, it's an
| academic qualification. The goal is to impart a basic
| knowledge of a scientific field.
|
| In my experience software engineering degrees tend to be
| essentially computer science degrees but with a slightly
| different emphasis. Of course, both are more applicable
| to software development than, say, a degree in biology.
|
| Some degrees have limited non-academic application, such
| as philosophy, and some have non-academic application but
| with only very few jobs available, such as forensics. If
| I recall correctly, computer science and software
| engineering are among the top degree topics measured by
| average financial payoff.
| rdl wrote:
| I'm generally not a big fan of security certs, especially for mid
| career or later (and a lot of people I know got involved well
| before certificates were a thing; they might have gotten
| certificates early on had they entered the industry later).
| However, DOD (8570/8140), some specific regulations, and some
| specific clients sometimes require them. I also dropped out of
| both high school and MIT undergraduate so having at least some
| cert is sometimes helpful for forms.
|
| Assuming you have the experience and a reasonable level of
| knowledge, CISA and CISM are pretty easy to maintain. CISSP is
| arguably worth it too but I let mine lapse due to annoying
| renewal requirements and some politics in the org.
|
| Having one or more of these can be really handy -- sometimes you
| have a client who requires it (perhaps because they've copied
| someone else's requirements), sometimes there is a project you're
| tangentially aware of with an audit requirement, etc.
|
| Technically they're nothing special. The Offensive Security stuff
| is probably the best for technical knowledge in their domain.
|
| (I also do a bunch of med, shooting, driving, armorer, etc.
| classes; it's especially interesting seeing how adult
| education/instructional design/etc. work in those areas,
| independent of the actual subject areas taught. "Training" vs.
| "education" in a lot of cases, etc.)
| michaelgrosner2 wrote:
| FINRA Series 57, not only because I learned a whole lot or
| because it's useful outside of my industry (derivatives trading
| development) but because it was a regulatory requirement of
| employment :-). But seriously, I did learn a lot about the wider
| finance world outside of the little bubble I sit in. It was also
| quite hard, it covered a wide range of topics that I had no prior
| knowledge of.
| vincentleeuwen wrote:
| I am CTO of a startup (and use to be freelance dev). I once did
| the Introduction into Machine Learning course on Coursera
| (https://www.coursera.org/learn/machine-learning).
|
| Although I would agree with most opinions here that that does not
| make me into a data scientist by any meanse, I do really like
| that I have a good "helicopter view" of ML. This is still super
| benificial in my role today, as I know which kind of statistical
| models apply to certain kind of problems. This enables me to find
| the right people for the right solution with much more ease.
| mt_ wrote:
| I don't think OP meant course completion certificates.
| hardware2win wrote:
| Ive heard that hard security certs are somewhat respected, but i
| dont have experience to confirm/deny it
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| When I worked in infosec, most of my coworkers collected certs
| like eggs on Easter. Perhaps that's because it is still a very
| new field and it's only been in the past few years that more
| than a handful of schools have started offering relevant
| degrees. It's worth noting that my local high school and middle
| school now both offer information security classes, with the
| high school going as far as making it a separate academy within
| the school. Maybe certs will diminish in importance as the
| traditional education system adapts to offer more training in
| this area.
| legutierr wrote:
| Any specific certs you have in mind?
| 1sembiyan wrote:
| It will keep you busy during work slumps but otherwise serves no
| purpose (at least in FAANGs)
| CraigJPerry wrote:
| I was one of the top scores on the RHCE in the UK when 5.5 was
| current. I like to think it helped but honestly don't know if it
| swayed anyone.
|
| I also scored really high in the Sun Certified System
| Administrator exam for Solaris 10 - i can categorically say that
| didn't help. Thanks Oracle & RIP Slowlaris (i jest, 10 wasn't
| slow, 10 was the ultimate OS, lightyears ahead of its time).
| robcohen wrote:
| I collect a lot of certs for fun, but most have not been helpful.
| I still like to collect them anyway.
|
| I think OSCP was the most legitimately useful in tech
| https://www.offensive-security.com/pwk-oscp/
|
| PMP has been useful to take on Project Manager roles, but really
| PrM roles aren't all that exciting to begin with. Still helps
| when you want to run your own projects.
|
| I'm currently studying to be a certified parliamentarian from the
| National Association of Parliamentarians. I'm interested in
| corporate governance and learning Roberts Rules of Order
| definitely helps.
|
| I'm also a certified farmer (yeah its a thing), I have 5 sailing
| certs, 3 scuba certs, Wilderness Emergency Medical Responder
| cert, working on my pilots license, getting my real estate sales
| license, ham radio operator general class, almost done with my
| CDL, there's lots more I'd have to check my notes on.
|
| I do want to get a Kubernetes cert done this year. Long term I
| want to knock out my CPA/CFA exams, but those are a huge
| commitment so we will see if it pans out.
|
| Most of this response hasn't answered your question at all,
| because certs really are mostly useless. Still fun to collect.
|
| I'd imagine financial certs would be the most useful (CFA in
| particular).
|
| If anyone knows any other fun certs let me know.
| 300bps wrote:
| _I 'd imagine financial certs would be the most useful (CFA in
| particular)._
|
| I'm similar to you - have a ton of certifications and I'm an
| insanely good test taker.
|
| Several years ago I signed up for the Level 1 CFA exam in late
| August to take it on December 5th. So I had a little over 3
| months to study for it.
|
| My first inclination that I made a horrible mistake was when
| one of my portfolio manager coworkers said to me, "I got my
| bachelor's in finance, got my master's in economics, studied
| for that test for 6 months, failed it and gave up. It's just
| too hard."
|
| 350 hours of studying later, I was the only one from my company
| that passed Level 1 that year. 33% pass rate.
|
| I'm in software engineering. It has provided no discernible
| career benefit even though I work at an investment bank.
|
| I'm happy that I proved I could do it but the CFA program is
| not a certification to collect on a whim. It's literally a 3+
| year commitment and you will come close to killing yourself
| studying.
| robcohen wrote:
| Thanks for the feedback, yeah that matches what I thought
| about the exam. I don't think it's likely I'll pass but I'll
| give it a go.
| DicIfTEx wrote:
| If you have a few hours to spare, you can become a certified
| rat tickler for free here: https://www.nc3rs.org.uk/3rs-
| resources/rat-tickling/rat-tick...
| [deleted]
| watmough wrote:
| Can recommend!
|
| The rats dig it.
| NoOneNew wrote:
| Past CDL holder here.
|
| Fyi, you are then a "professional driver" even in a normal car
| driving to the grocery. If you get a ticket, many states will
| instantly double the fine because as a pro, "you know better".
| Plus there's the medical aspect and other bullshit.
|
| Unless you're going to actually use it, dont get it. Learn to
| drive an 18 speed with air brakes etc, sure. Just dont get the
| actual cdl.
| leeoniya wrote:
| to add to this, if you dont actually use your SCUBA or first
| responder or pilot skills on a regular basis, those certs are
| worthless at best, and dangerous at worst.
| meristem wrote:
| Lapsed EMT here--this is 100% true.
| ghaff wrote:
| I don't have wilderness first responder but I do have
| wilderness first aid and keep it more or less up to date.
|
| I wouldn't try something complicated like a traction splint
| unless there was really no other option and possibly even
| then--not sure they even teach it in WFA any longer. But,
| for the most part having a weekend class to refresh a lot
| of first aid isn't a bad thing even if you don't practice
| it all the time, may have forgotten some of the details,
| and maybe your splints aren't the world's greatest. But so
| long as you're cognizant of your limitations having some
| even somewhat stale first aid training is probably better
| than having none.
|
| [Of course, if you act like your 10 year old WFR or W-EMT
| cert means you're qualified to charge in and take over
| because you're "certified" that of course can be an issue.]
| klabb3 wrote:
| For recreational scuba this is misleading. The cert is
| proof of going through training at some point, which
| differentiates you from someone who has never been
| breathing under water, cleared your mask and reg, and knows
| basic buoyancy control. These skills are not intuitive so
| the main thing is exposure, which the cert proves to a
| large extent.
|
| Dive shops with more advanced dives ask for total and
| recent experience as well, and sometimes require you to do
| a refresher or dive with them once before they take you on
| the advanced dives (deep, night, high current, overhead
| obstacles etc). The OW cert is a big contributing factor,
| but it's not the only data point.
|
| That said most other recreational certs are useless and
| just a money grab, even including advanced, imo. Shops
| generally rate OW+30 recent dives higher than OW+AOW, and
| rightly so.
| robcohen wrote:
| This is true, but I do try to keep the training up. I'm
| certainly not doing it every weekend, but I train a minimum
| of 3-4 times per year for W-EMR. Scuba, honestly so long as
| you do it once or twice a year you're fine, it's really not
| terribly hard.
| leeoniya wrote:
| i have an open water cert and dive 4-6 times a year. it's
| fine for just myself, but if you have a higher level cert
| like rescue, then you may be asked or expected to assist
| others in emergencies.
|
| thankfully, most places are very careful not to take cert
| cards from unfamiliar faces at face value.
| shkkmo wrote:
| I thank that is a crappy attitude. If I am on a dive and
| there is a lost diver or some other incident in the area,
| I want to have the skills to be able to help.
|
| I would note that "asked or expected" is different than
| "required", so there really is no downside to doing a
| rescue diver class or a divemaster program. In fact, I
| highly recommend it and it was a lot of fun.
| leeoniya wrote:
| unless you have actual experience in helping, your "help"
| can quickly become a liability, no matter how well
| intentioned.
|
| not to say you shouldnt get a rescue cert, but that alone
| is insufficient if you have no actual and recent or long
| term experience.
| mvid wrote:
| There is a negative, though, and I have experienced it
| diving. Diving is often a razor thin or no margin
| business, and selling cert courses can be easy money. Few
| scuba schools will fail students who are not up to snuff,
| because they might have to issue a refund or endure bad
| reviews. Some of these certifications will give
| incompetent divers a false sense of ability, and in an
| emergency situation, rather than staying out of the way,
| they create another problem.
| mdaverde wrote:
| Why do you think cert collecting is fun?
|
| I can see this being the case just for the fact that certs are
| usually paired a structured curriculum for learning a new
| skill. This takes a huge mental burden off and decreases time
| wasted in deadend exploration.
| robcohen wrote:
| Honestly, I enjoy learning but I don't like having nothing to
| show for it. Unstructured learning like going to a library
| and picking out a random book drives me nuts, I quickly feel
| overwhelmed. A cert at least gives me some goal to shoot for
| -- where I can prove some basic competency in the subject by
| virtue of having the cert.
|
| I need something to "show" for my efforts. Project-based
| learning can work for me as well, but it takes extra work to
| figure it out for a given skill. I'm learning photography and
| I have a goal of doing 1 portrait session per week for a few
| months. That kind of thing helps me feel like I'm making
| measurable progress.
| xeromal wrote:
| It's probably fun for OP in the same way leveling up a
| character in an RPG is.
| ncpa-cpl wrote:
| > Why do you think cert collecting is fun?
|
| My work requires me to take certifications and keep them
| renewed.
|
| What I appreciate from certifications is actually taking a
| well-made test. (Instead of a carelessly made normal school
| or university test.)
|
| For well made certification tests, the question writing
| process is interesting and a whole specialization by itself.
| Each question is beta tested. And metrics are collected as to
| how a question is correlated or predicts that someone will
| pass the test. Tests should avoid mixing question pairs that
| hint the answer of another question. And writing multiple
| choice answers in which the answer is not possible to guess.
| Also writing questions so they are well written and easily
| understood. So that the question measures knowing or not
| knowing the topic, rather than affecting the test taker due
| to unclear wording.
| Hellbanevil wrote:
| If you had a four year degree you used to be able to sit for
| the Realestate Broker's Exam. That ended a few years ago with
| yearly lobbing by brokers.
|
| Now the easiest white collar profession (8 courses that are
| easy) require we work for a broker for years. Usually a broker
| who got their licence without becoming a salesperson first.
|
| Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger vetoed the bill because he wanted
| competition.
|
| Gov. Brown eventually signed it.
| kart23 wrote:
| motorcycle license?
| netaustin wrote:
| As far as I know, CPA in most states requires 150 hours of
| college credit, of which many must be in accounting. My CPA
| friends largely joined the big four firm on the strength of
| their CPA, spent a little time in audit, then promptly switched
| to consulting. What you get from that certification is the
| ability to sign corporate audits, own an accounting firm, and
| the right to prepare and defend tax returns. Unless you are
| preparing for a second career in accounting, CPA seems like a
| lot to bite off, but good on you! I don't envy you all the cost
| accounting headaches and audit rules.
|
| CFA requires that you have work experience making investment
| decisions and can get references to that effect, but in all it
| would be easier than CPA.
| camjohnson26 wrote:
| Can confirm, plus there's a 1 year requirement to work in the
| industry to get the certification after passing the test, and
| a continuing education requirement to maintain it. I studied
| accounting and passed the test, but immediately started
| working in tech so technically I'm not certified. The test
| was a beast and took about a year and a half to pass all 4
| parts, and if you don't pass all 4 within a window of time
| the old ones expire.
| robcohen wrote:
| Correct. I'll need to take classes. I found an online masters
| in accounting that's AACSB accredited
| https://onlinemsa.illinois.edu/
|
| I'll knock that out then take the charter exam, if I pass
| then I'll consider doing part time work as an accountant for
| two years to get the hours.
| devoutsalsa wrote:
| Study almond growing to become certifiably nuts.
| magicalhippo wrote:
| Or get a masters degree in cosmology so you can put "Master
| of the Universe" on your CV.
| devoutsalsa wrote:
| This only makes sense if your pronouns are He/Man.
| [deleted]
| ThunderSizzle wrote:
| TIL women can't be masters of anything?
| devoutsalsa wrote:
| I suppose you could make a She/Ra pronouns joke. Or maybe
| Battle/Cat if you're a furry.
| cosmodisk wrote:
| If you do rain studies, you can call yourself rainmaker.
| pilsetnieks wrote:
| Though almonds are technically seeds, not nuts.
| hpcjoe wrote:
| "You are technically correct. The best kind of correct" --
| Administrator who chaired the committee that selected the
| cover of the book of rules.
| devoutsalsa wrote:
| I reckon you are the kind of person that would put tomatoes
| in a fruit salad XD
| happytiger wrote:
| Sounds seedy.
| W0lf wrote:
| Well, actually... :-)
| Jenz wrote:
| A rare actually tasteful "technically...," thank you.
| btown wrote:
| Study the history of obscure German counties to become
| certifiably in Sayn!
| ketzo wrote:
| Where did you learn the material for your PMP cert? There are
| so, _so_ many courses out there advertising PM training; not
| sure how to filter.
| creakingstairs wrote:
| Just curious, how are you going to get CPA? Don't you need work
| experience as well as exams for that?
| booleandilemma wrote:
| Yeah a CPA isn't just something you can go out and get like a
| Microsoft cert.
| robcohen wrote:
| Actually you can, you just need to experience to get the
| charter. You can go pass the exam so long as you have the
| educational background.
| happytiger wrote:
| Here are the requirements: https://www.calcpa.org/cpa-
| career-center/cpa-requirements
|
| The test is administered by aicpa, but this is a helpful
| starting point.
| robcohen wrote:
| Yes to get the charter, you must have work experience. To
| take the exam, you do not.
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/Accounting/comments/306fu3/how_s
| tup...
| amelius wrote:
| driver's license?
| jinto36 wrote:
| The National Association of Rocketry which supports model
| rocketry clubs and such has a tiered certification for High
| Power Rocketry (HPR) which is where you get into building very
| large models and packing your own motors. These certifications
| involve the usual written exam, but you also have to design a
| rocket in your target class- and get the design reviewed, and
| then build it- and get the build reviewed for safety, and then
| fly it. Since it's more than a book -> test certification and
| involves an actual hands-on engineering project, I'd consider
| it a fun one.
|
| https://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-certifications/
| LurkinGrue wrote:
| How do you keep up with CPE requirements across all of the
| carts? Just the CPA cert alone requires a minimum of 40 hours
| per year.
| robcohen wrote:
| Webinars usually get CPEs in most prof orgs, so it's easy to
| just put on a webinar during lunch.
|
| Also once or twice a year you can attend a conference and
| rack up all your CPEs.
| prepend wrote:
| Many times CPE can count toward multiple certificates. For
| example the same activity that give hours for PMP also count
| toward CSM.
| landemva wrote:
| Commercial driver and pilot could maybe be better described as
| licenses. Those have recurring medical requirements, and CDL
| holders can be picked for drug testing at any time. Strangely
| most of the flight docs are ignoring the FAA disqualification
| item of taking a medicine within two years of it being
| released. At this point, most commercial and military pilots
| should be grounded for taking the new virus shots. The two year
| requirement is reasonable to protect flying public from things
| not found in rushed medical studies, like heart attacks.
|
| MSHA part 48, or others, is useful to be allowed to be
| unattended on a mine site. The scope and size of some mines,
| and the operations and equipment, are something to experience.
| Of course, the mine owner must want you to be there.
| tylermenezes wrote:
| > At this point, most commercial and military pilots should
| be grounded for taking the new virus shots.
|
| FAA explicitly allows after 48hr observation, see https://www
| .faa.gov/coronavirus/guidance_resources#useOfVacc...
| landemva wrote:
| I hadn't seen that. That explicitly grounds the pilot for
| 48 hours after procedure. It does not appear to change the
| requirements for the yearly flight Dr. recertification
| regarding new medicines.
| akudha wrote:
| Wow, that is quite a collection. What kind of work do you do?
|
| One thing I am wondering is how much these certificates cost.
| For example, quickly glancing through your OSCP link says the
| minimum is $1499, it is not cheap!
|
| Thank you for mentioning NAP, I didn't know this was a thing (I
| suspect most people don't)
|
| Fun certs - I did this last year https://www.pearsonpte.com/
| and thoroughly enjoyed it. Unlike many tech certs, to pass
| language exams one has to really know the language. This exam
| is 100% computerized, so we don't have to deal with biases of
| examiners, which is what happened to me with IELTS.
| robcohen wrote:
| I worked as a product manager in crypto for awhile, but now I
| just hack on my own projects.
| gurchik wrote:
| A pilot's license can easily cost over $10k. I can't afford
| it right now but flying is a dream for me that I'm working
| towards.
| EwanG wrote:
| Can personally recommend a Part 107 cert for flying drones.
| Particularly since you mention your pilots license. It's nice
| to fly and not worry someone is going to say you're posting
| might be commercial - because that's ok with the cert. The FAA
| card is actually pretty nice, and whipping it out can stop some
| (though not all) of the folks who want to complain about any
| drone they see.
| dorchadas wrote:
| Look at some CEFR ones next!
| robcohen wrote:
| Sadly I simply am not capable of learning languages.
|
| I've tried, really hard. I did 4 years of french, 2 years of
| spanish, 4 semesters of Arabic, 2 semesters of german, 1
| Berlitz tutor session for 3 months in Russian and 3 months of
| tutoring in Farsi. Most of my grades were AWFUL and I barely
| qualified for anything. I really tried, but I just don't have
| the medium/long term memory for language. It also doesn't
| help that I live in the US.
| timr wrote:
| FWIW, I felt the same way. Studied French for years,
| through middle school, high school and college, and never
| gained any real degree of fluency. Then I moved to Japan
| and took language classes for 4 hours a day for a year. It
| worked.
|
| There were people who still raced around me -- I'm not
| _gifted_ at languages, by any means -- but for the first
| time in my life I 'm actually modestly capable in a second
| language. I continue to study now, and it's still
| accumulating, however slowly.
|
| After this experience, I believe that most people can learn
| a second language, but they don't because the barriers to
| entry are insanely high. If you really want to learn a
| language to a conversational level of fluency, you either
| have to be truly gifted (5% of people) have to want it so
| much that you'll immerse yourself in it 24/7 (the rest of
| us).
|
| > I did 4 years of french, 2 years of spanish, 4 semesters
| of Arabic, 2 semesters of german, 1 Berlitz tutor session
| for 3 months in Russian and 3 months of tutoring in Farsi
|
| It took me about 3 months of daily immersion in Japanese
| life (plus the 4 hours of daily school, of course) just to
| get to a point where my ears could hear words reliably. If
| you translate this to coursework...it's got to be 1+ years
| of college-level study.
| zdragnar wrote:
| I'm in a similar boat. I absorbed German really easily, but
| when I moved on to picking up another language, my brain
| constantly switched between the two, even during an
| intensive study course that was basically several hours a
| day exclusively in one. I tried beating my brain into the
| right shape, but no amount of effort made me anything but
| embarrassing in anything other than my native tongue.
| myself248 wrote:
| What's it take to be a locksmith?
|
| In some states, carrying lockpicks is presumptive guilt unless
| you're a locksmith, but I never figured out whether that's a
| certification or just a business license or what.
| fat_cantor wrote:
| no teaching certificates?
| robcohen wrote:
| I've thought about it, but teaching is such a long
| commitment. I almost signed up to be a teacher at my local
| community college in CS, but I just don't want to commit my
| schedule to something like that.
|
| Maybe someday.
| paktor132 wrote:
| https://www.nmra.org/education/achievement-program offers 11
| levels of certification for people like us who have a profound
| need for external validation. My certification list overlaps
| with yours about 60% but Certified Parliamentarian is next
| level, my hat is off to you
| robcohen wrote:
| Oh please share your list. I'd love to hear it.
| paktor132 wrote:
| Aviation - private pilot airplane single engine land;
| instrument rating airplane; complex, high performance, and
| tailwheel endorsements; part 107 remote pilot; DC flight
| restricted zone; instrument ground instructor (this might
| be a good one for you, just take the FOI and then AGI or
| IGI written tests and visit your local FSDO to get the cert
| issued). Considering getting my commercial, multiengine,
| and CFI certs
|
| Maritime - master 100 tons inland / mate near coastal plus
| a bunch of random crap the USCG throws on there if you get
| those (need to renew these this year); American Sailing
| Association 101, 103, 104
|
| Scuba - just the useful ones here cause I have a whole
| wallet memorializing money flushed down the drain: rescue
| diver, ice diver, solo diver, drysuit, open circuit
| advanced nitrox/deco procedures, 45m helitrox closed
| circuit rebreather w/deco, certified Poseidon
| regulator+rebreather repair technician (though the big
| thing I learned was just to send my gear to pros working
| with this stuff every day). Currently my big focus is
| training up to take the 60m normoxic trimix rebreather
| course in the fall
|
| Radio - general class ham (failed the extra by like two
| questions, in my defense I had only studied for general),
| restricted radiotelephone operator (literally just a cash
| payment, needed this once for a flight I had planned to
| Canada)
|
| Other - authorized to perform marriages, motorcycle
| endorsement on driver's license, certified analytics
| professional (took the test on a whim and passed, it's
| since lapsed but I might see if they'll let me re-up it),
| notary public (lapsed), have thought about doing PMP since
| I'd be good to go on experience reqs
|
| I started an EMT course a while back but I dropped out
| after realizing I was never going to be able to remain at
| all proficient. I'm like this with my aviation instrument
| rating as well, I keep legally current with it but I am
| pretty cautious about relying on proficiency since I'm not
| flying multiple times a week
|
| Probably some others I'm forgetting but these are the big
| ones! I remain really impressed with your list, you've come
| up with some good ones...will have to think on whether I
| need to pursue some of them myself :-)
| paktor132 wrote:
| Also, just to clarify my verbiage on the ground
| instructor bit, not at all saying that you couldn't do
| all the other aviation ones too (and you should, they
| were all a blast to get) and more...just that ground
| instructor is one you should specifically look into
| because it is relatively little-known, is straightforward
| and cheap to get for people like us who clearly find
| tests easy, and offers a fair amount of practical
| benefits (advanced ground instructor can teach ground for
| ANY part 61 rating, also you don't have to retake FOI if
| you ever go for CFI...flight schools in my area will
| absolutely hire someone on a ground instructor cert
| alone). No intent meant to cast any aspersions or to
| minimize any accomplishments!
| BbzzbB wrote:
| If you don't intend working in finance, but rather want that
| knowledge for your own investing, it's possible to just follow
| the CFA books on your own. AFAIK, level 3 is useless for the
| non-professional that won't be managing a portfolio worth
| millions.
|
| I had started learning level 1, but realized I'm kind of
| wasting my time allocating much brain juice to it before
| growing my income/net worth.
| robcohen wrote:
| That's true, but I'd still like to give it a shot. It's a
| massive commitment as you know, so we'll see if it pans out.
| If I do it I'll probably be committing to 2 hours per day for
| the next three years.
| MichaelMoser123 wrote:
| just out of interest, what do you do with the offensive
| security knowledge?
| robcohen wrote:
| I used to be a pentester, so it was pretty applicable...
|
| Pentesting really requires "full stack" systems knowledge,
| from networking, to OS, to API analysis, malware analysis,
| binary reverse engineering. OSCP is an applied cert, so it
| really forces you to be able to leverage knowledge in a
| practical way.
|
| However my favorite benefit of offsec is really being able to
| see things from an attacker's perspective. This has been
| super valuable in many situations and I've found I'm many
| times the only person in the room with an awareness of an
| adversarial mindset.
| markoman wrote:
| I'm thinking about getting into pen-testing and eventually
| getting an OSCP. Would you mind offering a few words about
| why you left the pen-testing field? Also, do you have a CEH
| or do you recommend bypassing it in favor of the OSCP?
| robcohen wrote:
| CEH is literally useless, I used to have it because I did
| DoD. That's the only reason to do it.
|
| I got out of pentesting because no one follows your
| recommendations. I could give 40 recommendations after
| doing a pentest, come back a year later and none of them
| would have been implemented.
|
| People don't care about security---it's why everything is
| broken and it's getting worse.
|
| I moved into Distributed Ledger Technology because I
| think it could help solve security issues people face
| daily in a way where they cannot mess up. That's the idea
| anyway.
| meristem wrote:
| It does make risk analysis more interesting. It surprises
| me how people will think only of the positive or accidental
| case, leaving adversarial ones off the table (and risk
| mitigation)
| typhonic wrote:
| A co-worker once told me he had two of three certifications for
| fireworks. I forget what they were exactly, maybe one for
| manufacturing, one for transportation, and one for operations.
| jcims wrote:
| I believe these can vary by state in the US but there's some
| ATF requirements as well. 'Operations' are called 'exhibitor
| license' and there are two of them. I'm getting my assistant
| exhibitors license now, which is the entry point. Once I have
| demonstrated sufficient proficiency, a lead exhibitor will
| sign off on my application to become a lead exhibitor. This
| will likely take a few years.
|
| There is a separate certification for anything involving open
| flames. Including things like Dave Chapelle using a lighter
| to light a cigarette.
|
| Storage, transport and manufacturing certs are independent of
| these and and all involve the ATF in the US (starting with
| Form 54). It's actually pretty complex trying to figure out
| alone, I had to get plugged into the local pyrotechnics guild
| for them to lay it out for me.
| robcohen wrote:
| Thanks for sharing the info. Super helpful!
| jcims wrote:
| My number one tip for anybody interested in this would be
| to contact the Pyrotechnics Guild International any
| locate in-state guilds that can take you under their wing
| and help you along the way. There are two in my state and
| they've both been remarkably receptive and helpful.
| mmaunder wrote:
| Pilot license is great because it gets you into thinking about
| how we make data driven decisions under pressure. And actual
| flying solo after you get your license helps because you do a
| kind of self analysis every time you screw up - even the minor
| stuff. There's a lot of study and focus on human factors which
| is the primary cause of accidents. So it's great to build self
| awareness.
|
| Congrats on your OSCP - I run a cybersec biz and some of my
| colleagues have that cert and I'm always impressed when I hear
| someone has it. I'm a CISSP but I think an OSCP is more
| practical.
|
| Ham radio extra which is elec eng focused rather than just
| rules of the airwaves is a good one. (I'm callsign WT1J)
|
| In our biz I really appreciate it when folks have a Network+ or
| Security+ or a Linux admin cert because you can't argue with
| the value of knowing networking fundamentals and the Linux
| command line. In fact knowledge of Linux command line is my
| leading indicator of competency for a QA role we have open. I
| look at answers to this question first every time. Next thing I
| look at is SQL knowledge- because I think both of these are
| strong predictors of deeper technical capability.
|
| Certs are underrated IMHO because most of them provide
| practical knowledge that is immediately applicable in a work
| setting or other pastime. They give you real skills.
|
| Lastly AWS certs are also super practical and very valuable
| IMO.
|
| Great question OP!
| smitty1e wrote:
| > Lastly AWS certs are also super practical and very valuable
| IMO.
|
| And then they roll out new services almost weekly.
|
| Quite a moving target.
| astral303 wrote:
| Au contraire, AWS has a stable of foundational services
| that have not moved in a long time and a worthwhile
| knowing, no matter what service-du-jour gets rolled out.
| Not a moving target at all.
| smitty1e wrote:
| That's a fair point.
| deepzn wrote:
| The cert expires in a couple years, and you have to get
| it again, with some new stuff added though.
| gzer0 wrote:
| I've got my AWS solutions architect associate and
| professional, they expire in 3 years.
|
| Azure is the worst offender, offering certs that expire
| in ONE year. No thanks.
|
| Google certs expire after 2 years.
| akoshodi wrote:
| At least you don't have to pay for renewals of Microsoft
| role-based certifications. "You can renew your Microsoft
| Certifications by simply passing a free, unproctored,
| online renewal assessment on Microsoft Learn, instead of
| retaking exams. The assessments measure the skills you
| need to remain up to date in your job role. They're
| shorter than the original exams because they focus only
| on the latest technology changes." [1]
|
| [1]: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-
| us/learn/certifications/renew-...
| mmaunder wrote:
| AWS is also proprietary which I failed to point out - but
| it's so widely used and has such great market share that
| it's not a bad life skill at this point.
| eddyschai wrote:
| I read this and thought, damn he sounds a lot like a PM I used
| to work with at IO. Then I saw the username ;) Hope you're
| doing well man - Ed
| robcohen wrote:
| Hi Ed! Hope you're still kicking ass! I'll reach out!
| skrebbel wrote:
| I warmly recommend the UML certifications. They test whether
| you know UML syntax rules by heart, not whether you can model
| software decently. It's absolutely useless, great fun!
| lupire wrote:
| > certified parliamentarian
|
| Is the specific parliament you want to work in?
| robcohen wrote:
| I do the role of Secretary for various policy groups, so
| knowing Roberts Rules and being efficient and knowing correct
| procedures is helpful for me.
| tacon wrote:
| I perked up recently when I learned that one can now become an
| accredited investor via a Series 7, Series 65, or Series 82
| license, bypassing the income/net worth requirements[0].
|
| [0]
| https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/092815/how-b...
| pacarvalho wrote:
| Unfortunately, the Series 65 is the only one that you can do
| without working for a financial company. Moreover, you need
| to not only pass the exam but we registered with the state
| and pay an anual fee. I believe.
| ketzo wrote:
| Woah! That seems like a big deal! Cool find, thank you.
| tfehring wrote:
| Related article and HN discussion from last year:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28855330
| kvirani wrote:
| Good call on PPL. It's a lot of fun and opens up alot more cert
| opportunities (mountain rating, float planes, IFR, multi
| engine, CPL, etc) so you will be in heaven.
| arinlen wrote:
| Oh god your CV must be a headhunter's wet dream.
| t_mann wrote:
| If your CV looks like that, you're better off omitting 80% of
| that stuff entirely, and putting another 15% in the
| 'interests' section.
| weinzierl wrote:
| It's not. Fit trumps quantity and quality any time.
|
| I'm not OP, but I also have quite a bouquet of
| certifications. Why? Mostly because I love to learn and I
| also love to work towards goals. Also most certifications[1]
| are not that hard once you've figured out how to deal with
| scenario based multiple choice questions. It's a low effort
| way to focus my learning.
|
| When it comes to hiring - and as someone who sat at both
| sides of the table - any certificate outside of what is
| expected in your industry does more harm than good.
|
| [1] OSCP is the exception to the rule
| scubbo wrote:
| > When it comes to hiring [...] any certificate outside of
| what is expected in your industry does more harm than good
|
| Huh - this is surprising to hear. I would have thought that
| random extra certifications would act as indicators that a)
| you're a naturally focused and capable person (rather than
| just cosplaying one for salary), and b) you have interests
| outside of work (so will be a more well-rounded and
| pleasant person to work around). Can you elaborate on the
| ways in which you find non-standard certifications to be
| harmful?
| t_mann wrote:
| Being focused and having lots of random interests are
| mutually exclusive, that should be obvious. Having lots
| of unrelated certificates signals the latter. If it's the
| case for you, only mention what's relevant for the job or
| what actually reflects your personality (so if you're a
| serious scuba diver, by all means mention it under
| 'Interests'; but if you got a certificate on vacation 5
| years ago and have haven't done any diving since, just
| don't).
| hcazz wrote:
| >Being focused and having lots of random interests are
| mutually exclusive, that should be obvious.
|
| If I had a hiring manager say this to me in an interview,
| I would not want to work for that manager. Random
| interests outside of work have zero influence on a
| candidate's ability to perform a job well. I enjoy
| working with coworkers who live fulfilling lives outside
| their 9-5, but outside of illegal activity, I wouldn't
| let their outside life influence my decision to hire
| them. If they find value in playing video games every
| hour outside work, that's fine. If they want to obtain
| random certs and skills, that's fine too.
|
| I'm also in the process of getting my private pilot's
| license. Do you expect me to start flying in the middle
| of the day instead of working? If anything, being able to
| focus on a target goal that can take 6+ months to
| accomplish indicate focus and drive more than a lack of
| it.
|
| The SCUBA diving example mentioned is an interesting life
| experience for someone to have, and doesn't deserve
| someone gatekeeping whether or not the individual is
| "serious" about their hobbies or experiences.
| ksala_ wrote:
| I cannot reply for that person, but to me a certification
| would mean that you know a given subject, so I could ask
| more in-depth questions and expect better answers than
| the average candidate. Sometimes this is the case (and if
| so then getting a certification is not harmful in my
| opinion), but often it just gives you a very high level,
| very passing understanding of the subject so candidates
| just end up being judged against a higher bar without the
| tools/skills to match it.
| jrumbut wrote:
| I agree with you and would be excited to see a resume
| like what some of these cert masters could present.
|
| However, I understand that some people shut down when
| they see a lot of extraneous detail. Think of it like
| reading a news article. You'd get confused if you started
| reading "Ferry sinks, injuring 11" and halfway through it
| starts talking about cricket, then a fire, then congress,
| then...
| dev_tty01 wrote:
| I got irritated with the size of a quote for my heat pump
| repair, so I got an HVAC certification and did the repair
| myself. A little time, $300 worth of equipment from Amazon and
| it is still running great after several years. I needed the
| HVAC certification to buy the refrigerant. Saved several
| thousand dollars.
| briHass wrote:
| I was going to add the EPA 608 as well. Not only does it
| allow you to buy/use refrigerant, but it usually counts for
| warranties for HVAC equipment. Mini-splits and things like
| that usually want a 'certified technician' to do the install
| (or at least the refrigerant work), and your EPA number
| qualifies you. My state doesn't even have the concept of an
| HVAC licensed contractor, only the EPA cert applies.
|
| Note: the EPA 608 has multiple levels. For mini splits under
| about 2 tons, you might be able to get by with just your EPA
| 608 core and Type 1 (small appliances, <5lb of refrigerant)
| Type 1 + core can be done online, open-book, and costs $25.
| Nobody should install a mini split without it!
| robcohen wrote:
| That's awesome. I want to get HVAC certified. First I'll
| knock out welding though.
| R0b0t1 wrote:
| You can do it without the cert, it's just the recyclers
| usually won't take your reclaimed refrigerant.
|
| I'd feel worse about it, but generally the HVAC companies
| in an area are extremely predatory and only quote out new
| systems when a simple repair would suffice.
| hattmall wrote:
| How long did the certification take and how did you go about
| getting it?
| MerelyMortal wrote:
| I got the cert 10 years ago (EPA 608, not automotive EPA
| 609). 60 minutes of studying two different study packets I
| found online. Found a local test-giver, and called them up
| to schedule the test.
| wonderwonder wrote:
| And after that you felt competent to do your own repairs?
| If so I know what I am doing the next few weekends.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Correct me if I'm wrong but I think 80% of it boils down
| to "do not release refrigerant gas into the atmosphere"
| MerelyMortal wrote:
| You're not wrong.
|
| The test does not cover how to do repairs or fix HVACs. I
| learned that elsewhere.
| [deleted]
| dev_tty01 wrote:
| I watched a lot of videos made by technicians and did a
| lot of reading. It doesn't take too long to study enough
| to get the basic certification, but that is not the whole
| story. I have done lots of electronic prototyping and
| test system creation, copper plumbing, etc., so I felt
| comfortable with tools and electro-mechanical systems. If
| your entire career has been behind a keyboard, you have a
| lot more than an hour of studying ahead of you.
| MerelyMortal wrote:
| The test (and studying for the test) does not cover how
| to do repairs or fix HVACs. I learned that elsewhere.
| t_mann wrote:
| CFA and CPA are not really comparable (even though they're both
| 'finance'). A CPA charter is closer to a JD degree / bar exam
| in that it is the necessary entry requirement for a legally
| defined profession (with quite steady demand). A CFA is more
| like a Master's in that it can help you get an interview for
| financial analyst jobs, but it is neither necessary nor
| sufficient to work as one. But it can help a great deal, that's
| true, especially when you're transitioning.
|
| Also, those are some pretty serious things to do as a hobby.
| robcohen wrote:
| Well I'm a serious guy.
| indigodaddy wrote:
| Red Hat certs will definitely be worth the time and money
| invested (if your employer will pay then jump at the
| opportunity).
| Tabular-Iceberg wrote:
| Does anyone here have any of the CITA certs from IASA?
|
| I've been thinking of getting one of them to get taken more
| seriously as a software architect, but I'm concerned that it will
| be all about creating complexity for the sake of complexity.
| pgt wrote:
| Perhaps not what you mean by "certification," but any candidates
| who passed electrical engineering or physics are at the top of my
| list for hiring.
| prepend wrote:
| MCSE really helped me.
|
| In the late 90s, 98 I think, I worked for an internet startup
| that didn't end up being huge. We were on Novell and a bit if
| solaris and had just launched a product that used windows nt and
| server side activex.
|
| I was a college dropout web dev/web master making $50k. They had
| a hard time hiring devs who knew nt and could design and automate
| server farms. I learned on the job and did an ok job running it.
| But they wouldn't promote me because I was really young and
| didn't have a degree.
|
| I went to a Microsoft conference and would buy a study book each
| day and take the test there. I did 3 exams during the conference
| and took the other three when I got home and with all 6 certs got
| my Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer (with a stamp of bill
| gates' signature).
|
| They gave me a raise to $60k (and the college grads went from
| 50-55). I then got $70k six months later and $80k six months
| after that as I was the "certified person."
|
| I always thought it was funny that I did the same job before and
| after the certs. The Networking cert was really useful and I
| still remember how to do subnets and dns and dhcp and stuff.
| nsheridan wrote:
| > I always thought it was funny that I did the same job before
| and after the certs.
|
| It's often more advantageous for the company to have people
| with certs (it was with MCSE and such in the 90s anyway) - more
| MCSE etc on staff meant it was possible for the company to
| attain higher partnership levels with Microsoft which often
| meant more lucrative contracts and so on.
|
| So while you may have been doing the same job as before, just
| by having the getting the certs you added more value to the
| business.
| prepend wrote:
| This didn't apply to my company as we were just a product
| company and didn't have any relationships with Microsoft (or
| Novell or Sun) other than buying their licenses.
|
| I later worked for consulting companies where these certs
| came in handy for the reason you describe.
| worder0 wrote:
| Is there any certification for which preparing for it would teach
| me how to recap/repair vintage personal computers from the late
| 70's onward?
| javiramos wrote:
| CPR training and certificate
| iasay wrote:
| AWS solution arch professional cert. A one eyed monkey could pass
| but it legitimately got me a lot of contract work as it's a lazy
| tick box as most people only bothered with the associate level
| one.
|
| Genuinely though certs don't really add value just get you
| through people who don't know anything about it and are doing
| recruitment.
| TimPC wrote:
| I don't have a single cert of any type and have never needed
| them. My last role was at the Senior Staff level and I'm
| currently interviewing for a Principal position. I've found certs
| are mostly asked for by either very unusual jobs or bottom of the
| barrel employers that don't trust their own people. I'm not
| really looking for either of those things so I find I don't need
| certs.
| tomohawk wrote:
| > ... don't trust their own people
|
| Yep, thats the DoD for sure. They require a lot of useless
| certs.
| [deleted]
| grepfru_it wrote:
| They're a nice bonus, I used to dismiss them until my friends
| and I all worked at jobs where they would pay for the
| certification if you passed plus a bonus of $500. We would come
| together on Fridays and whoever had passed the most certs that
| week would get free drinks. I held sooooo many certifications
| in the 2000s and I got job requests every day. I went to more
| high level certs (like VCP and AWS architect) in the last
| decade and the recruiters haven't slowed down. And I'm pretty
| sure having a CISSP will walk you into any security position
| today. Don't discount certs as they are a cheap form of
| networking.
|
| It's like going to college. You don't need it, but its a nice
| bump above others in the resume stack at some orgs
| itsbalamurali wrote:
| Not really! but collecting them was fun:
|
| https://www.credly.com/users/balamurali-pandranki/badges
| https://www.credential.net/cdcfc3a1-b8c6-4b79-8efb-120b61927...
|
| CEH is missing in there.
|
| It was fun but none gives a F as long as you get things done.
| datavirtue wrote:
| The only time I have found certs useful is for a good laugh with
| colleagues (I have several including MCSE).
|
| All certs are bootcamped. Pay money...get all answers...pass the
| test (maybe).
|
| I got a lot of value out of studying for them though.
| manfre wrote:
| Certifications provide a structured roadmap of self studying a
| technology. As a hiring manager, I give them very little
| consideration because passing an exam doesn't mean the person
| actually understands the concepts.
| alexfromapex wrote:
| Heuristically, it kind of does. Otherwise, I guess we would
| need to rethink almost our entire education system.
| syntaxing wrote:
| Serious question, seems like the general sentiment certs are a
| negative signal (which I don't agree with but everyone to their
| own) but where do degrees sit? If certs are a waste of time and
| people should spend their time "working on something real
| instead", wouldn't this also apply to degrees?
| cyberpunk wrote:
| I don't even bother reading the degree or not part when I am
| hiring. It's pretty irrelevant. I doesn't hurt, but none of my
| top 5-10 hires over the last decade or so have had one.
| Anecdotal of course.
| syntaxing wrote:
| If you don't mind me asking, is your team mainly software
| based? I work in hardware in tech and I haven't had a single
| teammate without a degree
| DethNinja wrote:
| I think university education or even a masters degree is
| valuable.
|
| It tells that applicant is capable of at least understanding
| some high level concepts in terms of logic. However, Software
| Engineering and Computer Science are quite different than each
| other.
|
| It is normal that experience overweights a CS education for
| Software Engineering field.
| mellosouls wrote:
| There's quite a few comments already about the dubious worth of
| certificates but that's an assumption pretty clearly implied in
| the OP.
|
| It would be useful to focus on the question as intended otherwise
| we are just going to see the same "certificates meh" noise that
| most of us already know.
| vermaden wrote:
| I have been on 40+ courses/training over the span of about 15
| years but ever did any exams or certifications. I feel that I DID
| NOT LOSE ANYTHING not having them. If you like to take exams then
| you may do it - but if you are about to pay for them from your
| money then I am not so sure its worth it.
|
| My profile is generally BSD/UNIX/Linux sysadmin with some addons
| needed in between like storage/virtualization or high
| availability clusters.
|
| If I got asked why I get to the trainings but did not get
| certifications I reply that I went for these trainings for
| learning and knowledge (and eventually things I needed to ask a
| teacher directly about them) and that was my main interest in
| them - I do not need a 'proof' that I 'got it and understood it'
| at the classroom.
|
| Maybe certification is more needed in other areas ...
|
| Regards.
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| For a career in security:
|
| https://pauljerimy.com/security-certification-roadmap/
| Aeolun wrote:
| Oh wow, my cert is actually on there.
| ivan_gammel wrote:
| As CTO I respect a lot Cisco, PMP and UX certifications by
| NNGroup.
| simne wrote:
| Any, which give you right to work in another country, or which
| lower barrier to got job in other country. Because IT is
| basically world specialty, mean, the more countries achievable,
| the higher will be your compensation.
| isalmon wrote:
| Personal story time. Back in 2005 I came to the US for the first
| time through the Work and Travel program. I was working as a
| lifeguard and had a lot of free time while nobody was in the
| pool. I decided to take a Zend Certified Engineer certification -
| back then it was PHP 4 - thinking it might help me get a CS
| internship in the US next summer. I passed it and 3 months later
| Zend offered me to take a PHP 5 certification for free. I was
| already back in my home country and of course I agreed. After
| passing the exam it turned out I was #8 overall and #1 in my
| country to pass it. I put it on my resume.
|
| 6 months later I found a job and moved to Boston. After working
| at that company for a few months me and my boss went out for
| drinks and I asked him why he decided to hire me. He said that my
| certification was basically a deal-maker. He thought it was a
| sign that I was at the top of my profession. I thought it was
| funny, but, hey, it worked.
|
| Super fast forward - a few years later I Fat FIREd at the age of
| 33 and I'm absolutely sure that the initial certification set a
| certain chain of reaction that led to it. So even though I think
| in most cases the certifications are absolutely useless, I'm
| absolutely sure that when you have to stand out from the crowd,
| especially at the junior level - they are super useful.
| sloaken wrote:
| Non-tech - Toastmasters - I think it is called 'Competent
| Toastmaster' it is the first set. Consists of doing 10 speeches.
| Significantly improve your ability to talk in public and to do
| presentations.
| Oras wrote:
| Toastmasters have a certificate? I didn't know about that. But
| how this will be measured and standardised considering it is a
| community run?
| technimad wrote:
| In my career I got quite some technical certifications. Any cert
| shows you are taking your job seriously and you are willing to
| learn.
|
| The following three certs helped to show I know my field really
| well and these separated me from others that just say they know
| it. Cisco CCNA/CCNP, Linux institute LPI and Agile Alliance
| certified Scrum master.
|
| Later on I used certifications to quickly pivot into a niche,
| sometimes when already practicing the role. Architecture (togaf)
| and product management.
| goodpoint wrote:
| The kind of company that values certifications highly is not the
| kind of company you want to work for.
| highwaylights wrote:
| I did a bunch of the Microsoft tracks about 10 years ago, mostly
| in the hope they'd help me stand out in a crowded field rather
| than actually get me a job.
|
| It's impossible for me to know if they ever worked in that
| regard, but I imagine they probably did at a few different times
| (subconsciously at least) in terms of getting my resume onto the
| shortlist, which was the goal.
| elbigbad wrote:
| My friend got something called "Board Certification" in the
| medical field and apparently is quite a big deal. Another friend
| got something similar in the legal field and apparently isn't
| particularly useful.
|
| In tech the more prominently someone posts these certifications,
| the bigger the red flag. Someone just got a CISSP for some
| reason, perhaps as part of a job, and it's at the bottom of the
| CV? Sure ok. Someone puts "PMP" in their signature line next to
| their name? Flashing red flag.
| bubblehack3r wrote:
| As an employer in the cyber security domain I don't have many
| methods of evaluating a candidate practical knowledge. For this
| reason I take a look at their certifications and will generally
| be very happy to see an OSCP or other offensive security
| certifications.
| altgeek wrote:
| One orbit of Saturn ago, achieving an Oracle OCP opened doors for
| me and let me charge big bucks during the dot-com boom.
| mark_l_watson wrote:
| I interview lots of people for my current and previous employers.
| I primarily look at public git repos, carefully reading their
| code. Bonus points for continuous education (Coursera, eDx,
| etc.). Ultimately though success is also strongly driven by being
| good at getting along with people, having a habit of carefully
| reading coworker's emails and documents, and writing skills. Work
| is a mixed bag.
|
| I would definitely list online classes and certifications on your
| resume, right below where you list your public git repos.
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