[HN Gopher] Stack Overflow Developer Survey 2022
___________________________________________________________________
Stack Overflow Developer Survey 2022
Author : klez
Score : 248 points
Date : 2022-06-22 15:05 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (survey.stackoverflow.co)
(TXT) w3m dump (survey.stackoverflow.co)
| bluedino wrote:
| I'm kind of shocked at the small amount of developers with > 15
| years experience (as well as the amount with 1-4 years) but I'm
| just betting it's more to do with the developers that are more
| likely to respond to the survey.
| TrackerFF wrote:
| I guess either:
|
| A) The most senior programmers simply don't visit Stack
| Overflow that much
|
| B) The more senior you get, the less actual programming your
| work entails, and you again visit Stack Overflow.
|
| Or something similar.
| bombcar wrote:
| I assume you mean greater than 15 years, but my experience is
| that many of the programmers with 25+ years experience don't
| bother with things like Stack Exchange, especially if they're
| in a programming world that is "old and out of date" anyway.
| ilikehurdles wrote:
| 10 years post college experience and I didn't even realize
| there was a developer survey to answer.
| nomilk wrote:
| "Fully remote" is the most common work environment! Wasn't
| expecting that, even considering covid. I wonder if employers
| will pressure staff to return to the office (e.g. hybrid) and
| fully remote will lose that number 1 spot next year. Time will
| tell. https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#section-employment-
| wor...
| yuy910616 wrote:
| Udemy coming in at 66% is pretty surprising to me. I personally
| purchased some 50 courses on there, and am happy with the result
| (especially owning the course and not having to deal with a
| subscription), but it is surprising to me that it basically won
| that market. It isn't all that friendly to course maker iirc. And
| the course quality varies a lot. Its pricing model is also very
| shady, giving me the impression that it is a poorly run company.
|
| Of course - youtube is not included; I imagine that'll really
| skew the graph
|
| edit: shoot, I just checked and I actually purchased 98 courses.
| ravenstine wrote:
| Yeah, though I thought Udemy had the least favorable reputation
| just because of the weird pricing tactics and a lot of courses
| being glorified tutorials. There's some great stuff on there,
| but I didn't think it would rank that much higher than
| Coursera.
| jedberg wrote:
| > A majority of respondents (75%) have been working for 14 or
| fewer years as a professional developer, meaning they've never
| worked in a world without Stack Overflow.
|
| Oh boy did this make me feel old.
| vgeek wrote:
| The horrors of expertsexchange?
| jedberg wrote:
| Even worse -- the horrors of having to find a _book_ in the
| _library_ to answer your question.
|
| When I started working all the senior devs had full
| bookshelves of O'Reilly books, and if you got stuck you went
| to them to either ask a question or use their books. Then as
| they left the company, all of us would fight over who got
| ownership of the O'Reilly book collection!
| TIPSIO wrote:
| Interesting as always. It would be great to have a UX to easily
| compare the trends, such as 2022 vs 2021 vs 2020 though. Unless I
| missed it.
|
| The "Web framework and technologies" section doesn't seem
| accurate to compare in a meaningful way.
|
| For example, they have Node.js as a standalone option probably
| throwing off everything. Then these compare weird when put
| together as options: Next, Nuxt, React, Vue, etc.
|
| Love it or hate it, jQuery was also #3.
| pastor_bob wrote:
| As an aside, I find the search-ability of this presentation to be
| terrible.
|
| I tried looking for word with CMD+F and the section I was looking
| at completely disappeared!
| Aachen wrote:
| I don't remember last years' but this was pretty mediocre
| indeed. E.g. after the first two graphs, I used autoscroll
| (middle click, move mouse) so that I 'saw' the whole page and
| all the graphs loaded and animations triggered. Then ctrl+up
| and read more comfortably.
|
| How stackoverflow builds this in when flashing content is such
| a common annoyance, I don't know. Sure, you don't want to load
| a megabyte of data for when people open the page for just 2
| seconds, but there are animations on top of the lazy loading,
| the actual data is not that large anyway, and the loading
| distance is not hard to increase either.
| rurp wrote:
| Breaking cmd+f functionality will immediately sour me on a
| site. It's surprising how many tech companies go out of their
| way to ruin basic behavior like that.
| Yuioup wrote:
| One web framework I expected to see trend downwards for
| professional developers is Angular, slowly being replaced by vue
| but my prediction did not seem to come true.
|
| Angular is steady while vue even trended downwards.
|
| The absolute king is React. Clearly professional developers are
| choosing to go for it because it looks like a safe bet.
| runarberg wrote:
| They are also choosing it because that's what they know, or
| that's what the project lead picked. And the project lead might
| have picket it because it is a company policy or because their
| manager told them to pick what ever would have the most
| available talent, etc.
| blablabla123 wrote:
| I kind of want to like Angular since it's so nicely integrated.
| But working with it is clearly not fun...
| agumonkey wrote:
| I like vue a lot for weird reasons, but it seems vue3 hit some
| roadblocks. The boxed refs are unpretty, and now they look like
| react-metoo product.
| layer8 wrote:
| They don't seem to answer the most important question: Does using
| spaces over tabs still predict a higher salary?
| kwertyoowiyop wrote:
| Tabs, but only when set to three spaces.
| ho_schi wrote:
| I'm using tabs. Explains a lot...
| newaccount2021 wrote:
| TrackerFF wrote:
| Wonder if that Rust lust comes from Rust developers themselves -
| i.e, programmers that use Rust a lot in their spare time, and
| really want to use it in their work too.
| Macha wrote:
| My understanding is this is the generally accepted theory for
| most of the highly "want to use" technologies. Likewise the
| least "want to use" technologies tend to be business-y type
| tools where people might be made to use them for the ease of
| other stakeholders, or integration with frameworks only used by
| e.g. legacy enterprise software.
| pxeger1 wrote:
| Could the title be updated to include the word "Results"? When I
| saw this, I thought it was the survey itself (which has already
| happened, obviously)
| whatever1 wrote:
| How many web frameworks are people building per day? I built my
| last website in 2018 and I cannot recognize any of the top
| frameworks listed today by SO. Even worse the frameworks I knew
| are now at the bottom lol
| pier25 wrote:
| Svelte is doing great in the loved/dreaded metric.
|
| First of all JS technologies. Second overall.
| gedy wrote:
| I love Svelte and maintain some open source libraries for it,
| but in recent job search I was struck by a near total lack of
| jobs mentioning it being used.
| pier25 wrote:
| I don't think it will ever get as big as React or jQuery, but
| once SvelteKit is released I expect it to grow much faster.
| kertoip_1 wrote:
| I wish they asked more about remote working, e.g. "Do you work
| for a company that operates overseas?". I'm also curious how does
| those answers differ by country: which nationalities are most
| open to work remotely for foreign companies? Where do people from
| my country work when they work remotely abroad?
| juice_bus wrote:
| (semi unrelated) Does anyone else find them selves using SO less
| and less as you gain more experience? I'm over 10 years now and
| rarely find my self on SO.
| [deleted]
| a_chris wrote:
| I can confirm. Also the technology used really counts: with
| Javascript I got weird error and there are no standard in the
| ecosystem so I found my self looking on Google and SO all the
| time. With Ruby, on the other hand, there are better
| documentation, no weird errors and everything seems so smooth
| that I visit StackOverflow just once a month. I have been
| working with JS for 3 years and just 1 year with Rub
| vitorsr wrote:
| I believe that Stack Overflow belongs to a time when VCS was
| the exception rather than the rule, codebases were scattered
| across many different providers, discussions took place on
| dedicated channels or mailing lists, documentation was scarce
| and of poor quality, and tooling was limited to the most
| essential. All this added friction to any form of shared
| knowledge of being built by the general public.
| dgb23 wrote:
| I can only talk about my personal experience:
|
| - Documentation seems to have gotten way better overall.
|
| - Github issues are often a good place to search for
| open/resolved problems.
|
| - I've simply gotten better at reading and debugging code over
| time.
|
| - There are often chat rooms for larger communities on
| Slack/Discord nowadays. You get a more fluent and direct form
| of communication there.
|
| - I still sometimes reach for Stack Overflow. But it tends to
| be for things where I'm a total newbie.
| bitwize wrote:
| Closed. This question does not meet Stack Overflow Guidelines.
| It is currently not accepting answers.
| mtoddsmith wrote:
| There always those really weird esoteric bugs that someone has
| already slogged through lots of trial and error to resolve. SO
| is great for those kinds of problems.
| wizofaus wrote:
| Yep - if you're getting a particular error code or message
| that makes no sense, googling as often as not finds it in a
| SO post, along with 20 ways to solve it, of which at least 1
| usually gives you what you need to do so. It's hard to
| imagine how much time I'd have spent tracking it down
| otherwise.
| runarberg wrote:
| I find myself using it equally much, but maybe in a different
| way. There are always times I find my self wanting to do
| something weird in a framework a specific framework or a
| language so I go see if there are already solutions out there.
| There are also times where I find an existing question but I'm
| not happy with the answers so I write my own after some
| research--which I would have hoped to have been able to skip--
| then my answer serves as a reference for the next time I need
| to do something similar (which may be as long as a year or two,
| so I won't remember).
| captainkrtek wrote:
| I find this as well. Earlier in my career it was useful, but in
| the last bunch of years I rarely if ever am on SO, and if I am,
| I'm trying to contribute answers. Wouldn't be surprised if the
| survey data is largely skewed to more junior people.
| binarymax wrote:
| Anecdotally, I find that web search has been doing a much worse
| job of recognizing my query and presenting an SO result - which
| is why I personally use it less. Blogspam created from scraping
| SO has been completely pwning top results in Google and
| DDG(bing) and it's really disheartening.
|
| See for example "geeksforgeeks" and similar sites, which I find
| to be a poor and overly verbose resource, which now dominates
| the top position
| plonk wrote:
| > See for example "geeksforgeeks" and similar sites, which I
| find to be a poor and overly verbose resource, which now
| dominates the top position
|
| Google Search's and Facebook Messenger's spam filters started
| letting tons of garbage through at roughly the same time. I
| wonder if the advances in generative deep learning helped
| with that.
| bil7 wrote:
| DDG usually shows a SO preview in the right hand gutter for
| code related searches. I guess that must be a bing feature.
| binarymax wrote:
| It does when it works, but I've found it to work less often
| these days.
| [deleted]
| heretogetout wrote:
| StackOverflow has become nearly useless because they don't
| mandate version numbers on questions and answers. I never start
| searches on SO and walk away empty handed probably 95% of the
| time I find my way there.
| Aachen wrote:
| I was actually part of a study on improving that. They
| selected for some criteria that I'm not privy to, but part of
| it was being active on the site. Iirc only a few hundred
| meeting invites went out in total. Some of the questions I
| was asked were also geared towards validating the problem so
| they could present it to management and get more manpower on
| solving it.
|
| Since then I've seen sorting by 'recently most voted' being
| used by default sometimes, but I still have to read up on the
| actual results. They're somewhere on meta SO or meta SE.
| heretogetout wrote:
| Part of the problem is the attitude that questions are
| duplicates of questions posted 10 years ago, so they get
| closed without answers. I am not sure recently most voted
| is enough. I think the culture needs to change
| substantially, maybe figure out some way to discourage
| closing as duplicate (cost N*5 points where N is the age of
| the supposed duplicate in months or years). Make it really
| expensive.
| TheCapn wrote:
| Maybe my attitude is wrong, but I've always felt the onus
| is on the Question asker to dictate that they've found
| the old answers and provide explanation to why they're no
| longer relevant to the problem. "I've already tried
| solutions from <x>,<y>, and <z> but they use functions
| depreciated in 2.1 and I'm using 3.0."
|
| I do recognize the problem you're describing though. I
| think I've developed this mindset because I stopped
| helping out in StackOverflow a lot due to the low quality
| of many questions. I did a bit of time moderating with
| the intent to teach new users how to improve their
| questions, but ultimately the amount of users who want
| quick answers outpaces my patience so I just moved on. I
| follow two niche categories now that I consider myself an
| expert in and that's about all I help out with anymore.
| heretogetout wrote:
| Yeah, questioners should be encouraged to include version
| numbers. Ideally there would be a specific mandatory
| field for a version number. I'm honestly shocked there
| isn't one, it seems so obvious there's no way I'm the
| first to think of it.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| Absolutely. Two of the big reasons are improved understanding
| and problem solving skills on my part and improvements in the
| tech stack I use day to day making things more clear and
| covering more use cases cleanly.
|
| The third is that I've come to recognize that the average
| quality of answers on SO is quite poor -- while they
| technically serve as solutions to posted problems, they often
| come with big caveats... use of private/deprecated APIs,
| hackiness, and feature misuse abound.
|
| As such when I use SO these days it's usually not for wholesale
| solutions to problems but rather to add to a greater body of
| examples of APIs in action which I can then abstract and use as
| needed. It's decent for this use case.
| plonk wrote:
| > The third is that I've come to recognize that the average
| quality of answers on SO is quite poor -- while they
| technically serve as solutions to posted problems, they often
| come with big caveats... use of private/deprecated APIs,
| hackiness, and feature misuse abound.
|
| The real clean answer is usually a mildly upvoted comment
| that scolds the answerer for violating a standard or using a
| bad practice. SO is still useful when that happens.
| [deleted]
| figassis wrote:
| I find that in recent years my best resources are official docs
| because that's where I find the "obvious" answers to the issue
| I'm having by not having previously read the docs. I also find
| lots of answers in gh issues (often unresolved) where I gain
| insight into what might be happening so I can come up with a
| solution. SO answers that I find useful are usually ones which
| link to related docs.
| pasc1878 wrote:
| Why is that in recent years. The best resources have always
| been thofficial docs and that has not changed since before
| SO. The issue is that official docs are often not good and
| you need pointers too them. In fact I would say that official
| docs are getting worse and you need more help from SO now.
|
| Agreed that github issues are very useful for understanding.
| But even there for popular reps there are too many stupid
| questions to wade through.
| Macha wrote:
| Broadly, yes. It's been years since I asked a question, and for
| searching and finding an answer, github issues has replaced it.
| stemlord wrote:
| That would be great. I work in a generalist type of field where
| learning new tools is part of the job so I am still googling
| the same stupid questions almost every day
| plonk wrote:
| I google the same git commands three times a day and end up
| on stackoverflow. Everything else is answered by the github
| issue comment with 10 emojis under it.
| clumsysmurf wrote:
| It probably depends on the technology you are using. For
| example, the Android conceptual guides are very good, but the
| javadoc / references are abysmal. You simply can't get anything
| done without SO because its more authoritative than the Android
| javadoc.
| cpascal wrote:
| I probably take more guidance from blog articles and GitHub
| issue comments than I do from StackOverflow. I think this
| started to happen for me around 2015/2016. I'm not sure though
| if that's a function of me requiring more niche/targeted
| guidance, or StackOverflow no longer capturing as much
| knowledge as it once did.
| lawn wrote:
| In the beginning I used SO a ton, both asking questions and
| using existing answers.
|
| But now I can't remember the last time I visited SO and I
| stopped asking questions many years ago.
|
| This is true even when learning new languages and other things.
| jjslocum3 wrote:
| I was asking myself similar questions after finding that the
| survey results bore little resemblance to what I've encountered
| in the US software industry in the last few years (I've been at
| it for decades). My first hunch is that the results say more
| about SO survey takers than about the actual software industry
| - similar to how various political polls (e.g. FoxNews,
| Politico) seem skewed towards the bias of the polling
| organization. My second hunch is that it's a big world, and I
| and my colleagues may just inhabit a bubble far from the center
| of the bell curve.
|
| These days, the only time I drop into SO is when a "how do you
| do that again?" search yields a relevant-looking question asked
| within the last year or so. As often as not, the search leads
| me to a blog post or primary source (e.g. mozilla javascript
| documentation). But when I do make it to SO, I find that it's
| still a bustling community full of legitimate expert guidance.
| shagie wrote:
| Yes. Several parts to it.
|
| 1) My experience is greater. Many of the problems that I
| encountered before, I know how to solve.
|
| 2) I know what knowledge I'm looking for if I don't know the
| answer. Instead of searching for the problem I am having (and
| ending up on SO), I am searching for the specific part of the
| documentation that I need for solving the problem that I have.
|
| 3) I tend to bias to project specific knowledge now. The
| general pollution of search on Stack Overflow means that it is
| more productive to search Spring documentation or the project
| specific forums ( https://github.com/spring-projects/spring-
| kafka/discussions ) rather than Stack Overflow itself.
|
| 4) Stack Overflow content is having difficulty with the lack of
| curation of old answers and the deceased quality of people
| answering now. Finding an answer written in recent times with a
| few variations on "have you tried {x}?" without the material
| leading to how that suggestion was derived means that trying to
| apply the answer is shotgun "maybe this works" without an
| understanding for _how_ it works or if that is the right
| solution.
|
| 4b) I try to avoid the "have you tried {x}" answers as that
| impacts the rate I grow my experience (and thus part 1) at.
| Likewise, in general, people who try the shotgun solutions (and
| I can see that in code reviews if they're not good about
| cleaning up (and they aren't) tend to continue to make the same
| type of errors again as they are following cookbook / paint by
| numbers approaches rather than understanding some basic food
| science or aesthetic theory.
| [deleted]
| billpg wrote:
| I answered "Very Favorable" to "How favorable are you about
| blockchain, crypto, and decentralization?"
|
| I am indeed very favorable indeed to decentralization.
|
| I also think blockchains are almost always a waste of electricity
| by computers pointlessly playing Numberwang all day. (I'm not
| quite sure if "almost" is needed there.)
| bitwize wrote:
| "Pointlessly playing Numberwang all day" is _the_ best, most
| accurate description of blockchain activity I 've ever heard.
| boardwaalk wrote:
| I agree this is a very unfortunate grouping of topics. The
| irony is that there's a lot of cryptocurrency stuff that isn't
| even well decentralized, so it's almost an objectively bad
| grouping.
| butterNaN wrote:
| I went through 'I need to learn a new language' phase a few weeks
| ago.
|
| I decided to go with Elixir because it seems fun (I have no
| Functional experience). However, I am seriously considering Rust,
| because it seems so universally loved.
|
| Maybe the grass is greener on the other side?
|
| I will definitely pick up Rust when I feel I am comfortable
| enough with Elixir.
|
| I primarily want to work with Distributed Systems, but It seems
| the best 'setup' is Elixir for Distribution logic and Rust for
| leaf-nodes-number-crunching logic.
| kretaceous wrote:
| I'll politely hijack this thread to ask for suggestions about
| what functional language to learn next.
|
| I have no functional experience apart from dealing with
| similar, toned down concepts in JavaScript.
|
| I was considering Clojure or Elixir depending on tooling,
| ecosystem, market worth and most importantly, what can it teach
| me.
|
| The reason I got inclined to Elixir was to learn
| Phoenix/LiveView. The reason for Clojure was it's very much
| adored here and it seems a good starting language for FP.
|
| Rust is in my list but maybe sometime later this year.
| H12 wrote:
| As someone pretty plugged-in to the Elixir community, I can
| fully endorse it. There are a lot of really exciting new
| developments happening on the regular, but it also has really
| solid foundation, being built on the BEAM (Erlang's VM).
|
| As a language, the syntax is pragmatic and approachable like
| Ruby, but the VM scales super well since it's Actor model
| provides concurrency by default.
|
| There are even projects working to enable GPU-accelerated
| numerical computations (Elixir Nx) and Jupiter Notebook style
| collaboration and code sharing.
|
| If you're primary goal is to learn something fun that's also
| great for getting actual work done, you'll probably really
| like Elixir.
|
| My recommended introduction would be installing it, and
| running through their official guide from the top:
|
| http://elixir-lang.org/getting-started/introduction.html
| ducharmdev wrote:
| While I like the functional aspects of Rust, not sure I would
| call it a functional language - still very much worth
| learning though.
|
| Maybe a slightly unconventional answer, but F# is quite nice.
|
| https://fsharpforfunandprofit.com/
| cigrainger wrote:
| They work really well together. Check out Rustler.[1]
|
| [1]: https://github.com/rusterlium/rustler
| lawn wrote:
| Both Rust and Elixir are languages people generally love, and I
| too really like them both.
| Taywee wrote:
| I'd recommend Rust even if just because the available material
| for learning it is really good: https://www.rust-lang.org/learn
|
| I'm just recommending Rust in general, not over Elixir, because
| I've never used Elixir and have no experience in that area.
| Rust is a pretty easy language to love.
| politelemon wrote:
| > A Linux-based OS is more popular than macOS - speaking to the
| appeal of using open source software.
|
| I'm glad to see this, and I hope this trend can continue. Though
| I wish I worked for such a company, and I friendly-envy people
| who have such a privilege.
| ask_b123 wrote:
| I always miss out on answering these surveys and only remember
| their existence when the results come out.
| jarek83 wrote:
| Salary part - I wonder if those results make much sense. I
| remember that question did not specify the currency and also the
| previous question to it was the country of origin, which could
| suggest to use your local currency. At least I was not sure what
| to put there.
| jedberg wrote:
| It blows my mind that 72% of developers love Slack. I absolutely
| hate it with a passion. It's like someone walking up to your
| desk, except we made it way easier because they don't have to get
| up and feel the social pressure of waiting for you to stop what
| you're doing and take off your headphones.
| mulmen wrote:
| It's IRC without the headaches.
| jedberg wrote:
| I have the same complaint about IRC. :). I'm ok with both
| Slack and IRC for collaborating on an immediate problem, like
| an outage, but I hate having it just sit there as a way for
| someone to ping me any time.
| mulmen wrote:
| Sure but your complaint is about chat apps, not Slack
| specifically. For the people who "love" Slack it is just
| IRC but easier.
| boredtofears wrote:
| It's about the proliferation of slack being treated as
| the primary mode of communication at many companies now
| instead of email.
|
| I'd much prefer default asynchronous communication than
| default real time communication (or some kind of hellish
| mixture of the two).
| jedberg wrote:
| That's fair, but even between slack and IRC I much prefer
| IRC for real time collaboration and any chat app for one
| on on conversations.
|
| Slack threads are the worst thing to happen to IRC. Pick
| a modality. Is it a real time conversation or
| asynchronous threads? And then having one on one and
| group collaborations in the same place means both are
| done poorly.
|
| It also means the notifications for both get mixed
| together. I want to get notified when someone posts to a
| group in slack, and I also want to get notified when I
| have a direct message, but not at the same time.
| mulmen wrote:
| I love threads. They're lightweight channels. In large,
| busy channels it allows parallel conversations. I see no
| reason a thread would be strictly asynchronous or real
| time. That's an organizational expectation. And anyone
| who expects real-time responses outside of a call needs
| to come back down to Earth.
| VirusNewbie wrote:
| My company basically uses slack as an improved email. We don't
| expect immediate responses unless we specifically tag someone
| and say ASAP or whatnot. Works out well.
| windows_sucks wrote:
| I think you can disable notifications, so you're not disturbed
| jedberg wrote:
| You can, but people get annoyed if you don't respond quickly,
| because they expect a quick response, otherwise they would
| send an email.
| loudmax wrote:
| This is really a social problem, not a technical problem.
| The technology for instant communication exists and it
| isn't going to disappear. Your coworkers need to learn to
| give people space to do their job. Sorry that's scant
| comfort if that's what your workplace is like.
| cudgy wrote:
| Or is it a technical problem that creates a social
| problem, thereby making the technology the problem?
| jedberg wrote:
| It's a product marketing problem, specially Slack's. They
| market it as an instant communication product, but then
| they put threading and other asynchronous type modalities
| into it.
|
| I have no problem with instant chat apps. I can set
| myself as away and people know not to expect a response.
|
| But in slack it's a group conversation with the
| expectation of instant response, because that's how they
| market it.
| cauthon wrote:
| Note that all of these percentages are a little misleading.
| It's the percentage of developers who responded to the
| question, not the percentage of developers who participated in
| the survey.
|
| For the slack question, it's 72% of 34,440 responses (24,635
| love vs 9,805 dread), or about 36% of the 70,000 participants
| (with ~50% of participants giving no response and I'm assuming
| therefore being neutral or having no experience.)
| slindsey wrote:
| Does your company culture expect immediate response? I like it
| because we treat it like short-form email, maybe with a slight
| expectation of quicker response. If I send you an email, it
| will have some detail and please get back to me within a few
| days. If I send you a slack message, I expect a sentence or two
| and a response today or tomorrow.
| jedberg wrote:
| I've never worked anywhere that didn't expect an immediate
| response from Slack. If they wanted a delayed response,
| they'd send an email.
|
| Worse yet, if I try to enforce that myself by not responding,
| there is a whole conversation in the channel before I get
| there and then I have to respond to all the messages in a
| mess of threads or some big long response block.
| scarface74 wrote:
| I very much have "deep work" time where I turn off
| everything. If there is a house on fire emergency, they can
| use our paging app that can bypass DND on the phone.
| ozim wrote:
| You know you set the expectations. Is it firing offense if
| you reply in 30 mins.
| runarberg wrote:
| My interpretation: Devs like the experience of interactive
| instant messaging without any hassle and simply equate Slack
| with that experience. Slack is really pervasive in our industry
| despite its subpar experience for developers.
|
| I largely agree with 72% of developers here, although I would
| gladly swap it out for something better. The notification
| scheme is good enough. I don't like to be disturbed a lot, so I
| disable sound notifications, and just notice the red dot in the
| browser tab occasionally (which I promptly ignore if I don't
| want to stop and read messages).
| gdsdfe wrote:
| Wait so in Canada a student is payed $116k+ more than a data
| scientist or a data engineer or a backend developer etc. ?!? How
| does that make any sense ?
| prohobo wrote:
| I love that C++ developers only want to work with C++ and Python,
| while nearly everyone else is doing web stuff.
| a_e_k wrote:
| 1. It's a combination that hits the sweet spot for the
| "alternate hard and soft layers" architecture.
|
| 2. Python is quick to write for scripts, one-offs, and things
| that don't need to the performance of C++.
|
| 3. The ecosystem is fairly stable and low-drama.
|
| (Speaking as one of those C++ and Python devs.)
| TillE wrote:
| This is hilarious because that's literally me. I use C++
| professionally and where it's appropriate for hobby stuff, and
| Python for nearly everything else.
|
| Ok I also use C# for the parts of game development where Python
| is too slow / not well integrated, but C++ would be overkill.
|
| But web dev? No way. Trendy new languages? Meh.
| jarek83 wrote:
| I wonder if there might be a bias in lang/framework popularity
| results towards those that give more challenge to devs. Like the
| more problems you have with a tool the more often you go to SO
| and it makes it more likely to fill the survey.
| treis wrote:
| (1) My poor back button
|
| (2) Those YoY salary increases are bonkers
|
| (3) Poor Ruby on Rails. Seems to be slowly sliding into
| irrelevance in the face of stiff competition.
| tra3 wrote:
| Rails is boring tech [0] now. Phoenix seems to top the "wanted"
| listed, but it only has about a ~1000 respondents. If I had to
| guess I'd say js/typescript will eventually eat rails, django
| etc. If I started coding today, or indeed within the last 10
| years, it's not clear why I would choose anything other than
| Javascript.
|
| [0]: https://mcfunley.com/choose-boring-technology
| mayormcheeseman wrote:
| I really want to learn Rust, but I just don't have enough time in
| the day to commit to learning it if I'm not going to be able to
| find a job with it that doesn't involve blockchain or
| cryptocurrencies.
|
| Can anyone tell me how the general Rust job market looks for you
| guys outside of things like Indeed?
| jonteru wrote:
| Interesting results as always, but on the salary side I find it
| really hard to believe that on the executive level (C suite/VP)
| the median annual salary is just 6k bigger than that of
| engineering managers. I'd imagine not a lot of executives respond
| to this survey so that probably skews the results.
| StevenWaterman wrote:
| A 3-person startup probably has a CEO, probably doesn't have an
| engineering manager
| wiseowise wrote:
| > Interesting results as always, but on the salary side I find
| it really hard to believe that on the executive level (C
| suite/VP) the median annual salary is just 6k bigger than that
| of engineering managers.
|
| C suite/VP that receive salary that is substantially higher
| than engineering managers don't sit on StackOverflow.
| ctvo wrote:
| Surprising for me: AWS's market share is still Azure + GCP
| combined amongst professional developers [1]. With various
| articles about Microsoft's success I was expecting lower. The
| same for loved / dreaded. AWS scores significantly better [2] in
| terms of loved over other cloud platforms. Being in the HN bubble
| I was expecting that to be lower also. The other items that
| scored high on loved / dreaded were mostly new technologies vs.
| dominant incumbents.
|
| 1 - https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#most-popular-
| technolog...
|
| 2 - https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#most-loved-dreaded-
| and...
| clumsysmurf wrote:
| As an Android developer since 2009, I will not touch anything
| from Google ever again. Its a very asymmetrical relationship,
| and if something goes wrong, like your account gets suspended,
| its a Kafkaesque nightmare, with usually no recourse.
| geek_at wrote:
| same goes for other platforms too, you know.
|
| The only advantage for Android is that you can theoretically
| also just distribute via sideloading
| npalli wrote:
| Regarding Azure, it is quite possible the primary developers
| are corporate/in-house types and not big on responding to this
| particular survey. About 70,000 developers (in total) responded
| which is a small fraction of the developer universe.
| swyx wrote:
| always the same criticism with surveys. and yet this is one
| of the biggest surveys in the world. one has to try.
| isbvhodnvemrwvn wrote:
| And I believe microsoft counts their SaaS offerings in their
| Azure usage, which significantly skews the numbers.
| andsoitis wrote:
| Of the ~52k responses:
|
| - almost 33% of people have programmed professionally for less
| than 4 years
|
| - just over 27% have programmed professionally between 5 and 9
| years.
| ARandomerDude wrote:
| I suspect junior developers care a lot more about Stack
| Overflow than more experienced developers. When I first started
| my career, I looked at SO at least daily. Now (10 years later),
| I look at it maybe monthly when I'm searching for a solution to
| a weird library/config issue.
|
| If that hunch is correct, it would explain why the data are so
| skewed towards people with less than 5 years of professional
| experience.
| Washuu wrote:
| 30 years of coding experience here.(Professional + student) I
| only end up on Stack Overflow for cryptic regex stuff that I
| forgot and ffmpeg syntax.
| Barrera wrote:
| > Clojure remains the highest-paid language to know.
|
| Any ideas around why that could be?
| caterwhal wrote:
| I've been a professional Clojure developer for some time now.
| My main observation when it comes to this is that Clojure is
| often picked to solve particular problems based on the
| capabilities it offers over other languages very deliberately.
| I've seen quite a few cases where an organization had attempted
| to solve a really high value problem with a more mainstream
| language, realized that it was next to impossible to succeed
| that way, and then tried Clojure with great results. In short,
| oftentimes Clojure makes it easy to solve really difficult
| problems and expert Clojure developers are in short supply.
|
| Some examples of problems that I've seen Clojure excel in
| solving: 1. Complex rule modeling 2. Optimization systems 3.
| Big Data pipelines 4. Highly concurrent systems 5. Streaming
| systems
| yen223 wrote:
| My hypothesis is that Clojure doesn't get used outside of the
| US, and so the median salary isn't pulled down by the
| comparatively lower salaries outside of the US
| askonomm wrote:
| Tons of Clojure in Europe. Especially Northern Europe.
| Following the job boards and Clojurians Slack channel's #jobs
| channels I figure it's about 50/50 for US and EU.
| ilikehurdles wrote:
| Many people using clojure were already senior level engineers.
| Few jump into clojure (or elixir or some of those other top
| languages) straight out of college. They make conscious choices
| to introduce these technologies to their companies or to seek
| out companies that utilize them, which implies they're at a
| level where they're able to exert more influence.
| rr888 wrote:
| Because there is like one project and they had to pay a fortune
| to find anyone.
| capableweb wrote:
| Common trope which if you'd actually read through any real-
| world data, is nowhere near to be true.
|
| One basic example: https://jobs.braveclojure.com/, five pages
| of jobs that are all about Clojure (and some others languages
| + Clojure)
|
| Not to mention when you're running a Clojure company and you
| go out to find candidates, most of them are really good and
| you won't have to look for very long, as long as you can
| compensate them well, as the competition between companies
| (for candidates) is fierce.
| ilikehurdles wrote:
| And few clojure shops will require previous experience with
| clojure. The ones I've worked on have all welcomed
| engineers new to the language, which on its own is a
| refreshing approach to hiring. I don't think highly of
| companies that hire at the level of specificity of "X years
| in Y technology".
|
| Good engineering principles translate across stacks.
| NKosmatos wrote:
| When you see (once more) that despite your 20 years of experience
| you're being paid less that what students are being paid in other
| countries :-) (yes people, I know it's my fault that I'm still
| staying at this job... no need for downvotes or negative
| comments).
| anticristi wrote:
| Depending on your geography, it might be a fair price to pay
| for universal healthcare, free daycare and university for your
| kids, as well as having a notion of evening and weekend.
|
| I'm still looking for a golden tool to convert total
| compensation plus geography into expected happiness.
| mminer237 wrote:
| The average American pays 10% of his income on healthcare
| expenses. [1] That would mean it would be around $5,000/year.
| The US charges maybe $30,000 more for college than some
| cheaper countries. With two kids, that's maybe $1,500/year
| amortized over a career.
|
| Those aren't going to be worth it for the average person
| unless you live in Norway, Luxembourg, or the UAE. I doubt
| there's any country where those outweigh the average
| programmer salary difference, let alone after taxes. Even if
| you have a serious health condition and crappy health
| insurance, deductibles cap out at $7,000/year.
|
| [1]: https://www.advisory.com/daily-
| briefing/2019/05/02/health-ca...
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| you are not alone
| wiseowise wrote:
| Surprised at average Ocaml salary. But then Jane Street folks,
| probably, don't use platforms like StackOverflow.
| acchow wrote:
| It's because Ocaml is from France and is taught in many schools
| in France. Europe overall has much lower salaries than the US.
| viggity wrote:
| Is the raw data available?
| jesprenj wrote:
| +1. The website is unusably slow for me.
| usrbinbash wrote:
| Docker going strong :-)
|
| Unsurprising, really. The usefulness of it cannot be overstated.
|
| Doesn't even matter if its used anywhere in the deployment chain;
| simply having the ability to pull up a replica of almost any *nix
| environment on my laptop _in mere seconds_ , using it for tests,
| and then throwing it away resetting it _again in mere seconds_ is
| beyond awesome, no matter if what I 'm working on then goes into
| a huge complicated deployment chain, or is shoved onto some on-
| premises, zero-abstractions, baremetal server.
|
| And how is it all configured? Plain text files. How is it
| controlled? Command Line. Meaning I can script it every way I
| want, using the tools I already have and use. Doesn't get in the
| way, doesn't demand that I work around it...it works with me and
| my tools in the same way they already work together.
|
| Oh, and of course, good bye and good riddance to the days when I
| had to install and configure local RDMS for tests. Everything I
| use has an official image, so I just write some small setup
| script, a Dockerfile, knit everything together in a docker-
| compose.yml and presto, done: Application stack is up and
| running.
|
| To me, Docker is as essential as my text editor these days.
| KronisLV wrote:
| > Unsurprising, really. The usefulness of it cannot be
| overstated.
|
| Furthermore, in addition to the points you mentioned, it also
| lets us: - trivially remap ports to whatever we
| want (and expose whichever we'd like to the outside) -
| easily set resource limits, so your instance of MariaDB doesn't
| bring the whole server down and make it unresponsive -
| abstract away storage, in case you want a specific directory
| for your backups instead of following HFS (say, just have /app,
| treating the rest of the server as throwaway) - perhaps
| most importantly, your host OS is now separate from the actual
| containers that you are running, updating/redeploying either
| becomes a breeze
|
| Recently, I actually decided to build my own containers for all
| of my personal use cases and it's been an interesting
| experience: I base everything on a LTS version of Ubuntu and
| just use apt for getting all of the runtimes (Node, Java, .NET,
| PHP, Ruby, Python, ...) for my own software, and so far it's a
| nice experience.
|
| All I need is the base Ubuntu image from Docker Hub and the
| rest is up to me and the regular mirrors/repositories for the
| software packages in question, most of which can be stored on
| my own Nexus instance as needed, as well as the whole build
| process is primarily driven through Gitea, Drone CI and a few
| "servers" (repurposed old computers with passive cooling) that
| I have on my desk.
|
| Though for now I also use Bitnami images for databases and
| such, which are also decent and which I largely just cache on
| my end: https://bitnami.com/stacks/containers
|
| So what I'm trying to say, is that there's a lot of flexibility
| that you can enjoy, both in making your own "templates" for web
| servers, programming languages, build toolchains etc., as well
| as you can grab pre-made stuff that other people have made, be
| it on Docker Hub, someone's Nexus/Artifactory/Harbor instance
| or another registry out there.
|
| Docker and other OCI compatible tools have largely achieved the
| sort of adoption and widespread usage that projects like Nix
| and Guix could also benefit from.
| mynameisash wrote:
| I sorta learned a little about Docker+Kubernetes on a previous
| project, and it was a nightmare. I don't have a good mental
| delineation between the two products because the whole thing
| was a trainwreck, though I'm inclined to think that 95% of the
| horribleness was K8s.
|
| That said, I also don't remember the Docker documentation to be
| very good. For someone that doesn't work with it
| professionally, what's a good starting point to learn Docker
| well?
| [deleted]
| EnKopVand wrote:
| Are you sure you need to learn Docker well? I ask this
| because I use docker on a daily basis, but I rarely actually
| "use" docker. What I mean by this is that we deploy
| everything using docker, but it's handled by our DevOps
| pipeline and the "docker" part is really just a dockerfile
| that is typically given to us by our cloud vendor. I think
| the only thing I've changed in ours for nodejs, c#, Python
| and go images is the image version they get build with.
|
| Lets say I want to write a typescript microservice and deploy
| it to azure as a serverless functions app. I'll fork our bare
| metal nodejs project for azure functions, which is
| essentially the standard azure cli "create nodejs function
| -typescript -docker" (this isn't correct syntax but you get
| it) with the linting and ts-compiling rules we use on all our
| projects (and an updated image version in the docker file as
| mentioned). While I build things and run them locally, I
| don't use docker, it's not until I actually want to deploy to
| azure and setup the release pipeline and trigger it that
| docker comes into play, but those DevOps steps (also
| streamlined) aren't really docker heavy as they simply use
| the dockerfile that was mostly provided by Microsoft.
|
| I can certainly build and run my micro service as a docker
| container locally, but I don't need to. In fact the only
| times I did was when it failed to build during the azure
| pipeline but it turned out to be the azure container registry
| access controls every single time that happened, so these
| days I almost never "use" docker. In fact I use it so rarely
| I almost always have to Google command lines.
|
| I know people use docker in many different ways, and that
| many use things like docker compose, but my point is that you
| can deploy everything you build with docker and never
| actually have to care much about docker itself. So maybe you
| should ask yourself if you really need to learn docker good
| before you spend too much time on it.
| tacker2000 wrote:
| Though k8s works with docker, you shouldnt need to use it off
| the bat, especially in the beginning without having lots of
| experience with docker itself. Most projects dont need k8s
| and i personally have never used it.
|
| I agree the docker docs are lacking, i basically learned
| everything by googling stuff, stack overflow and reading some
| blog posts
| Taywee wrote:
| I find for builds especially it's invaluable. I have a Makefile
| that builds Docker images and runs build processes for all 4
| supported versions of Debian, 3 LTS versions of Ubuntu, RHEL7,
| and Fedora 35 and 36. It builds and packages the software on
| all of these, giving me debs and rpms for every relevant distro
| ("relevant" meaning distros used for servers or workstations
| for any of our employees and clients).
|
| I then have another set of docker images for making package
| repositories and signing everything.
|
| I do have a lot of mostly-redundant dockerfiles in some places,
| but in others I've managed to leverage m4 to reduce the
| redundancy (though I'm trying to keep it as slim as possible to
| avoid the pain of turning everything into a convoluted set of
| impossible-to-maintain macros).
|
| Before this, I was using Vagrant and Ansible for builds, which
| was slow, memory hungry, and frustrating to debug. Not to
| mention that dependencies that needed to be built statically
| couldn't be easily cached, which comes out of the box with
| Docker.
| toastal wrote:
| And yet here I am having used Docker like 3 times. I've used
| Heroku, Nix, or even just versions through asdf if necessary
| and been fine--though Nix is the only truly reproducible option
| here. None of these options involved containers or overhead.
| seabrookmx wrote:
| What overhead?
| mulmen wrote:
| The virtual machine?
| mandarax8 wrote:
| What virtual machine?
| city41 wrote:
| Docker requires a Linux VM when not ran on Linux.
| noisem4ker wrote:
| ... unless you're running Windows containers (on
| Windows).
| KronisLV wrote:
| > ... unless you're running Windows containers (on
| Windows).
|
| But aren't most Windows containers a bit on the heavier
| side? And don't you then need to also use the whole MS
| server setup for deploying your stuff to prod, which is a
| no-no in certain settings?
|
| Edit: provided that you can even find an image for the
| software you need (from an official provider/latest
| versions/with proper instructions and source). Consider
| the following: - https://hub.docker.com/s
| earch?q=postgres&operating_system=windows - https:/
| /hub.docker.com/search?q=postgres&operating_system=linux
|
| Then again, WSL2 is pretty okay for running *nix based
| OCI containers, apart from the file permissions (SSH keys
| and anything like that is a pain, especially with bind
| mounts).
|
| Even a Hyper-V VM was a decent choice, though any sort of
| a performance overhead was also negligible - I've heard
| the story being worse on OS X in regards to disk
| performance, though not sure whether that's still
| relevant. The worst thing about Docker on Windows has
| generally been the weird bind mount syntax for the
| Windows file system paths (not too bad, to be honest) as
| well as the whole file permission thing, as well as the
| Hyper-V approach eating some of your RAM in the
| background.
|
| Apart from that, it's _mostly_ passable, though Docker
| /Podman on *nix is comparatively painless. Though I could
| say that about most development ecosystems, from PHP to
| Java. Windows is just generally better for certain
| classes of desktop software and gaming, *nix is generally
| better for most development related tasks and servers.
| /opinion
| lmarcos wrote:
| > simply having the ability to pull up a replica of almost any
| *nix environment on my laptop
|
| Umm, I struggle with that. I have Ubuntu machines that run in
| production. They are VMs that run systemd for some stuff and
| Docker containers for others. The only way to (easily)
| replicate such machines on my laptop is via VMs (e.g., Vagrant
| + VMware), not via Docker only.
|
| I do use Docker a lot... Inside VMs.
| _ZeD_ wrote:
| > Unsurprising, really. The usefulness of it cannot be
| overstated.
|
| meh, I can count on my hand the times it was useful to me.
|
| oh, and having to deal with docker desktop is not fun
| swyx wrote:
| fwiw you can run docker without docker desktop now
| https://www.swyx.io/running-docker-without-docker-desktop/
| umvi wrote:
| Well yeah, Docker + Windows isn't the best experience. I
| recommend WSL if you must go down that route.
| tester756 wrote:
| I wish installing Docker inside WSL2 wasn't so problematic
| - the networking part to make it work is messy
| GordonS wrote:
| It used to be a bit flakey pre-WSL2 integration ~2-3 years
| back - it's been absolutely rock solid for me on Windows
| since then, just like on Linux.
| skinnyarms wrote:
| Same, I can't even remember the last time it's crashed
| for me or anybody on my team.
| folkrav wrote:
| You don't even have to bother with Docker Desktop these
| days, you can start it in `/etc/wsl.conf` directly with
| `service start docker` and forget about it, it'll start
| with the VM. I think this is a rather new feature though.
| plonk wrote:
| > oh, and having to deal with docker desktop is not fun
|
| To stay sane, just forget it exists until it crashes
| irretrievably, then reinstall it and repeat. Containers and
| images being disposable is the whole point anyway.
| mythrwy wrote:
| Not denying the potential usefulness, but I've seen a lot of
| time get lost to faffing around with Docker when it completely
| added nothing at all.
| melony wrote:
| Except when it comes to paying for it. Developer tooling is
| still a dead end business model if you are not subsidized by a
| bigger company.
| scarface74 wrote:
| One of my updated "Joel Test" job requirements is "do you give
| each developer access to a dev cloud account with fairly wide
| guardrails."
|
| I would much rather just spin up all my resources on a dev
| cloud account using CloudFormation/Terraform, and spend them
| down when I'm done.
|
| Before I get (rightfully) called out. Yes I work at AWS now.
| But I also found that just as appealing three years ago when I
| worked at a 60 person company.
| shagie wrote:
| Students claim to have 4.86 years (on average) of professional
| experience. O_o
|
| The lowest years of experience of actual professionals belongs
| to... blockchain developers with 9.63 years (on average) of
| professional experience.
| kiernanmcgowan wrote:
| My guess is that there's some sampling bias for the student
| population - if you're plugged in enough to be doing this
| survey you've probably been hacking for a while.
|
| Fwiw, I started getting paid for slinging code at 16,
| maintained the website for a university group in college, while
| still doing other work in the summers. I probably would have
| answered with "6 years of experience" if asked when I
| graduated.
|
| Is that truly "professional experience"? In retrospect probably
| not, but 22yo me would have been too stubborn to answer
| otherwise.
| tester756 wrote:
| Do you take hours ratio into the account?
|
| e.g if you've been working 4h a week,
|
| then it'd be weird to say after year that you have 1 year of
| commercial experience, when your colleagues spent 40 hours /
| week and have "only" 1 year too
|
| I believe that pay is not necessary, but working for somebody
| else or in team (e.g OSS) is necessary.
|
| So yea, I wouldn't say that hacking something even cool, but
| alone is commercial xp.
| kerblang wrote:
| Just a note, the comment is quoting from this:
|
| https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#section-experience-yea...
|
| BTW many people go (back) to school after obtaining some
| professional experience. Not sure about the context of this
| part of the poll though.
| shagie wrote:
| The 4.86 years of experience is the mean of the 677
| respondents who indicated student.
|
| Going back to school after a few years is one thing... (and I
| lack the median, but I'm going to guess that it isn't too far
| from the mean) but having _most_ students go back to school
| after 4 years of professional experience seems a bit odd.
|
| I really suspect that they're either counting their 2 months
| of summer internship as a year several times over, misreading
| the professional part of it and including hobby, or
| misreading the professional and considering that they're a
| senior with 3 years of academic experience which translates
| 1:1 with professional, so they'll put that down.
|
| The issue is that type of "something is fishy here" without
| further drilling into it makes me more skeptical of other
| data outliers and suspect more reporting and analysis issues
| than a (self reported) poll can be trusted.
| BlargMcLarg wrote:
| >Students claim to have 4.86 years (on average) of professional
| experience. O_o
|
| You've heard of "5 years of experience" entry level jobs, now
| meet the "5 years of experience" students
| bierjunge wrote:
| The eight Canadian students claim to have an income of (avg)
| $116,850.5. I think it's time for me to move to Canada.
|
| https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#salary-canada
| trinovantes wrote:
| Those are probably 16-month (effectively fulltime) coop
| students working at big tech/finance. By senior year some
| of my classmates were making 10-12k/month.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| That's not at all surprising.
|
| It's their intern salary projected on a yearly basis so ~
| $9737/month.
| juice_bus wrote:
| I'm in Canada and these students allegedly make more money
| than I do with ~12 years of experience.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| it gets better -- twenty years experience and you will
| make much less again
| gopher_space wrote:
| There are probably crypto-fintech-medtech jobs out there
| that pay 500k but we'd never get to the salary part of
| the conversation because the whole idea feels shady.
| Security might also pay well but there are too many
| personalities involved in the domain for me to find out.
| tester756 wrote:
| I do have 4 years of commercial experience and I'll be getting
| masters next year.
|
| That's because I've been working full time since 2nd semester
|
| But I still do believe that it's weird.
|
| Maybe people think about experience in general instead of
| commercial, full time?
| davidspiess wrote:
| Is it possible to find out the average salary of a specific
| country? In the survey it's only possible to switch between US,
| India, Germany, UK and Canada.
| speedgoose wrote:
| My union does that, you may have one for IT professionals where
| you live.
| pxeger1 wrote:
| I presume that's because they didn't have enough data for other
| countries.
| throwaway889900 wrote:
| People love APL more than Java? Interesting, I always bring up
| APL as a joke.
| Beltalowda wrote:
| Only about 500 people filled in APL, whereas about 22k people
| filled in Java. For a lot of people APL isn't really on the
| radar.
| abrudz wrote:
| Makes sense to me (but I'm of course biased) due to selection
| bias. My impression is that those for whom APL clicks, find the
| day-to-day APL experience very enjoyable, while those that just
| don't get it will tend to leave APL behind. Probably not so for
| more widely-used languages, where people will stay with them,
| even if it means daily frustration.
| mayormcheeseman wrote:
| I expected C#/dotnet to make a little more headway considering
| all of the work being done and released recently, plus the push
| to make it more cross-platform than it already is.
| BlargMcLarg wrote:
| Microsoft usually has pretty good documentation. Maybe that
| lowers the need to use SO, which would lower the odds of those
| developers being active on SO.
|
| 28% is still pretty good compared to Java's 33%.
| mayormcheeseman wrote:
| Oh definitely, Microsoft docs are usually very well written.
| And you're right, those percentages look pretty good.
| khoobid_shoma wrote:
| The numbers do not say what is really better. It just reflects
| responders' opinions.
| bigbillheck wrote:
| > It just reflects responders' opinions.
|
| That's why they called it a 'Developer Survey'.
| mg wrote:
| Observations:
|
| 1: Amazing that Javascript is the most popular language, despite
| nobody has yet managed to write a fast FizzBuzz in it :)
|
| https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/215216/high-thr...
|
| 2: SQL and Bash both went up a percentage point! Yay! The art of
| terse and efficient code is not yet dying.
|
| 3: Strange that "Web frameworks" mixes backend and frontend
| frameworks. Why is "node.js" listed here? Isn't node.js a
| runtime?
|
| 4: Docker made a big jump from 49% to 64%. I consider that a good
| thing. I don't believe in "containerizing" applications. But I
| prefer to have Docker stay around for the long term. Because
| containers on their own are so darn useful.
|
| 5: Git is at 94%! Really? 94% of developers use Git? Or do they
| use some tool that is using abstracting Git away, like GitHub?
| Anyhow. Thats great, because Git (like vim) is one of the best
| pieces of software out there and I love that it will be around
| for a very long time.
| GlitchMr wrote:
| > 1: Amazing that Javascript is the most popular language,
| despite nobody has yet managed to write a fast FizzBuzz in it
| :)
|
| The reason for that is that standard output implementation in
| Node.js is very slow. When the challenge is to write as fast as
| possible to standard output that's not ideal.
| speedgoose wrote:
| It's because it's not possible.
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| Why not?
| trinovantes wrote:
| This fizzbuzz competition specifically requires the
| solution to work up to 2^63 which is not possible as the
| largest int in JS is 2^54-1. You would have to use BigInt
| which would greatly reduce your performance.
|
| So not impossible but kinda pointless for JS
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| I'm not a programmer just a pedant ... can't you just
| concatenate two integers one as your bigend and one as
| your little end. Sure, probably not fast, but slow !==
| impossible.
| city41 wrote:
| That's pretty much what BigInt is doing for you.
| TJSomething wrote:
| The thing that was said to be impossible was writing a
| fast FizzBuzz. Assuming that your reference is C, it kind
| of is.
| shakna wrote:
| There's ASM and C answers, without going near BigNum
| libraries. You wouldn't necessarily have to implement or
| use a BigNum library.
| Taywee wrote:
| ASM and C have access to native 64-bit integers.
| Javascript does not.
| shakna wrote:
| Javascript does [0]. Shipping in Chrome v67, and rolling
| out elsewhere.
|
| [0] https://chromestatus.com/feature/5371603852460032
| Taywee wrote:
| That's not native 64-bit integers. That's BigInt, and
| it's already out everywhere, and unless the situation has
| changed, it's significantly slower than just 64-bit
| integers would be.
|
| I'm not actually attacking JavaScript for this, note. I
| don't think it's really all that much of a problem given
| the purposes of JavaScript, and I think it could really
| be better fixed by doing something similar to what Lua
| did, and have all numbers transparently either a 64-bit
| floating point number or a 64-bit signed integer. If you
| are using JavaScript and something like specifically
| needing 64-bit integers is an issue for you, there's a
| good chance you should just be using WebAssembly.
| bluedino wrote:
| There is no way that 94% of programmers know how to use Git.
| Most of them barely know how to program.
| silentguy wrote:
| Regarding Git being 94%, if you see the table just below about
| interacting with the version control system, you'd see 83.57%
| users using command-line. 28.44% are using version control
| hosting service web GUI. 83.57% is still a big number of people
| who are using git with fewer abstractions on top.
| thunderbong wrote:
| > Git is at 94%! Really? 94% of developers use Git?
|
| I think this means that 94% of the people using Git have
| questions!!
|
| IMHO, this means that a simple Distributed Version Control
| System is really required.
| _ZeD_ wrote:
| like mercurial?
| layer8 wrote:
| > a simple Distributed Version Control System is really
| required
|
| Right, it would be nice to have a simple one.
| kwertyoowiyop wrote:
| All the Git users took a break from reading tutorials and
| googling for solutions, and took this survey.
| capableweb wrote:
| > Amazing that Javascript is the most popular language, despite
| nobody has yet managed to write a fast FizzBuzz in it
|
| It's almost like "Best performance of all languages!" is not
| that important of an requirement for a language to become
| popular :)
| runarberg wrote:
| Being the native language of the most popular information
| sharing standard in the history of humanity surely must
| account for something.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| Re 2: Bash can be terse, yes. Efficient? Depends. It can be
| efficient in terms of developer time to get something running.
| Efficient in terms of CPU time? Maybe not.
| waylandsmithers wrote:
| > Why is "node.js" listed here? Isn't node.js a runtime?
|
| In this context this almost always means node.js with express
| MattGaiser wrote:
| I so rarely hear of Express in the context of backend JS.
| People always just say Node. Curious convention.
| diarrhea wrote:
| I was under the impression Solidity was a dumpster fire language.
| For example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14810008. It
| ranks surprisingly high. Is this riding off of Ethereum's
| popularity? Perhaps in combination with the skewed sample
| (towards young/beginning devs).
| Xenoamorphous wrote:
| Race "European"?
| tacker2000 wrote:
| Found that interesting too. But i guess that has to do with the
| fact that if youre not in the US then the concept of "race" is
| different.
| badrabbit wrote:
| Not gonna lie, I am a little upset about Ocaml here.
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