[HN Gopher] X-Plane 12 Flight Model Update - Supersonic Transiti...
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X-Plane 12 Flight Model Update - Supersonic Transition, Delta Wings
and Mass
Author : Alupis
Score : 145 points
Date : 2022-06-21 18:24 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (developer.x-plane.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (developer.x-plane.com)
| upofadown wrote:
| So the flow over the top of the wing breaks free and forms a huge
| vortex and the drag increases tremendously? Sounds like an
| aerodynamic stall to me. A bit pedantic, but that is pretty much
| what a stall is. The nose might not drop and the aircraft might
| be controllable, but the wing is still stalled.
| geocrasher wrote:
| No, that's not quite right. A stall means that the air has
| separated from the wing and the wing is no longer flying. The
| huge vortex created when a delta wing is at high AoA actually
| causes the air to _stick_ to the top of the wing, and this
| maintains control.
|
| I used to fly a 48" delta winged glider that had a catapult
| launch. The catapult would launch it at about 120mph. I could
| fly to about 300 feet in a nice vertical arc, but as _soon_ as
| I yanked back on the elevons, the rather light plane would turn
| sharply and slow down significantly, due to the very effect
| discussed. A non delta wing would have been unable to maintain
| airflow over the wing because the high AoA (20-25 degrees)
| would have been far more than the 12-15 degrees that straight
| or swept wing can take.
|
| In other words, the Delta wing kind of acts as a _giant_ vortex
| generator: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_generator
| caconym_ wrote:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_lift
| Nick87633 wrote:
| It forms a single vortex over each wing, coefficient of lift
| still increases with angle of attack. It's more like moving the
| wingtip vortex near to the nose of the plane. There is a much
| higher 'true stall' angle of attack where flow separates and
| lift reduces.
| [deleted]
| ushakov wrote:
| i'm surprised that Austin Meyer's passion for flying, simulation
| and programming hasn't decreased one bit in the last 25+ years
| anyfoo wrote:
| Yeah, he's a treasure.
| zippergz wrote:
| I've always enjoyed xplane but one thing I find annoying is that
| it seems like sometimes they emphasize visuals and cool effects
| (like 3d cockpits) at the expense of making the planes fun and
| practical to fly from a normal computer setup. The full sim setup
| people have built with yokes, pedals, and other controls are
| absolutely astonishing and it's so cool that xplane supports
| that. But most of us don't and can't have that kind of thing, at
| most a joystick and often just a keyboard and mouse. Over the
| years it has gotten less and less enjoyable to fly xplane with
| that kind of a setup because of the emphasis on making it look
| cool over making it behave realistically (I don't consider having
| to click a graphic of a physical switch on the screen with my
| mouse more realistic than hitting a key on my keyboard). You can
| fix some of it with key mappings, but it's clear that this
| experience is not the priority.
|
| That said, I totally agree with the others that this is an
| outstanding product and a bargain at its price. My griping comes
| from a place of love as someone who has been using xplane for
| over 10 years.
| anyfoo wrote:
| My setup is usually one very good joystick (VKB Gladiator II)
| and _sometimes_ an additional throttle control. But the VKB
| joystick has a little throttle slider on the joystick itself,
| and if I don 't want to make space on my desk that's usually
| enough. As long as you have a good joystick and a keyboard, you
| can often reasonably fly pretty much everything from GA to
| Airliners.
|
| Though more out of curiosity I recently got a TrackIR, which
| tracks your head (usually using reflective surfaces that you
| can put on a baseball cap) and adjusts the viewing angle, and I
| must say _that_ is an absolute game changer.
|
| No longer having to either guess what's left, right, or even
| behind the screen, or awkwardly using camera controls is so
| much easier. And I was surprised how natural it feels: The head
| tracking has to heavily amplify your head motion, since you
| still want to keep your eyes on the screen after all, and to my
| own astonishment there was practically zero time for my brain
| to adjust. I even added some nonlinear curves and that works
| well, too.
| cheschire wrote:
| its so crazy to me how many times i've heard people praise
| the TrackIR, and I have one as well that really improved
| ETS2, but the latest version is advertised as a Windows Vista
| compatible product on Amazon.
|
| It works in all the later versions of Windows, but my point
| is how OLD it is. Has nobody figured out a way to improve on
| it yet? All the gopro headband hacks, monitor bezels
| shrinking over the years, wireless tech including bluetooth
| LE... one would think that there would be room in this world
| for a TrackIR 6.
|
| The VR craze is past the peak thankfully, but man that
| would've been the opportune moment to sell a product that
| doesn't have all the weaknesses of early Oculus and Sony VR
| headsets.
| selectodude wrote:
| A lot of people I know (myself included) use our iPhones as
| the TrackIR hardware. Anything with FaceID works great.
| avereveard wrote:
| The latest opentrack neural net tracker is great too
| we're using it in dcs with mouse for clickables and it's
| a super pleasant experience
| eterm wrote:
| This was always the x-plane way. I had x-plane 5 and had tons
| of fun flying it and because of that bought x-plane 6 and it
| just wasn't as fun to fly because they put so much effort into
| getting the flight models "more accurate" which actually meant
| the sim was just less fun to fly for many of the more odd
| planes available like the SR-71.
| zippergz wrote:
| Yeah, I mean, I think the "flight models are too accurate to
| be fun" thing is true in some cases, but it's a different
| issue than I'm complaining about. For me, I'd rather have
| super accurate flight models and really great controls via
| keyboard and mouse, with graphics that look like Battlezone
| (1980s arcade game for the youngsters) than incredibly
| detailed landscapes and cockpits that might be almost
| photorealistic but give almost no thought to what it's like
| to use on a normal computer without a full dedicated setup.
| Alupis wrote:
| I think this might be because X-Plane isn't the type of
| "game" many folks are looking for in a flight sim.
|
| X-Plane prioritizes correctness and details above all else
| - whereas something like Microsoft Flight Simulator
| prioritizes eye candy and fun.
|
| Want to fly to Area 51, attempt to land a 747 on an
| aircraft carrier, fly above the pyramids of Egypt, fly
| _between_ buildings and perform aerobatics - choose MS
| Flight Simulator.
|
| Want to practice patterns, procedures, participate in a
| live online ATC simulated community, familiarize yourself
| with new territory or airstrips, learn a new aircraft -
| choose X-Plane.
|
| That's not to say you can't use X-Plane for fun, it just
| means doing things like aerobatics might not come easy due
| to the focus on realism.
|
| Both are excellent simulators in their own right - just
| need to find the one you prefer. I personally fly X-Plane
| 11, Microsoft Flight Simulator and Prepar3D (based off
| older MS Flight Simulator codebase). Each has pros and
| cons.
| hellcow wrote:
| X-Plane is a flight simulator. Its purpose first and foremost
| seems to be to create a real sensation of flying.
|
| When flying a plane in real life, you don't do it with a
| keyboard. It seems odd to build a simulator prioritizing that
| unrealistic use-case.
|
| A quality HOTAS setup can be had for under $400 which gets you
| much closer to the real-world experience that X-Plane is trying
| to create.
| potatolicious wrote:
| Also worth adding that a reasonably complex modern aircraft
| _cannot_ be fully controlled by the keyboard alone. We 're
| well past just simple throttle up/down, flaps up/down, gear
| up/down, etc.
|
| How does one interact with the MCDU in an Airbus with the
| keyboard and joystick? How does one set the A/P altitude and
| airspeed? Set the radio frequency? What's the keystroke combo
| to manage the EFB? What keys are bound to "APU bleed on"? The
| sheer amount of functionality in a modern cockpit defies
| keyboard control - both because you very rapidly run out of
| available keybinds, and also that glass cockpits require
| input modalities that are fundamentally at odds with the
| keyboard.
|
| I'd hazard to say the "3D cockpit + mouse interaction" mode
| is the only practical way of flying a modern complex
| aircraft, short of some type of VR/hard cockpit setup.
| jupp0r wrote:
| The cockpit interface could be implemented as a command
| line user interface. Having lots of buttons with text
| labels is obviously better in emergency situations.
| ses1984 wrote:
| What about some kind of "spotlight" search?
|
| Imagine you press a keyboard chord to pull up a virtual
| search bar, then type "APU bleed on" and a virtual hand
| reaches out and does the action.
| lmm wrote:
| > X-Plane is a flight simulator. Its purpose first and
| foremost seems to be to create a real sensation of flying.
|
| > When flying a plane in real life, you don't do it with a
| keyboard. It seems odd to build a simulator prioritizing that
| unrealistic use-case.
|
| How much difference does that make to the sensation though?
| As long as it's a motion that's simple enough to become
| muscle memory (which having to look around with a mouse and
| click on the right thing onscreen isn't), I don't think the
| mechanics of how you're physically doing the input makes any
| difference.
| azalemeth wrote:
| It makes a big difference. The FAA talk about "flow
| patterns" for correct activities in certain phases of
| flight; training to recover from some non-normal situations
| is quite literally learning a specific muscle memory, as
| well as decision making (albeit quite simple decision
| making).
|
| Something that is quite hard to convey is how you actually
| _do_ get into an "OODA loop" in an aircraft
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop) - observe,
| "orient", decide and act. For example, if flying VFR a lot
| of the time is spent looking out the window and _actively
| checking_ that there is "nothing there". You look at the
| instruments, but you don't _stare_ at them. A large part of
| flight training is pattern recognition, muscle memory, and
| fine motor skills.
|
| I spent a lot of time gliding while writing up my doctoral
| thesis (mostly as it's hard to panic about not working when
| you're too busy not dying) and found it very helpful for
| other situations in everyday life. Part of that is knowing,
| exactly, without looking, where everything is. For that
| reason, aircraft have physically differently shaped handles
| for the important knobs so that they are unlikely to be
| confused. On the glider I have most hours in, the lever on
| the left that is blue, with a moulded grip is the speed
| brake. The tow / winch release lever is a yellow ball. In
| many prop aircraft, the throttle, mixture and prop pitch
| knobs are again given different shapes (round, star and
| "undulating" respectively). Knowing where to move your
| hands to is actually _a really important skill_ and the
| keen-beans that X-plane sells to likely have set-ups where
| not only are these things in roughly the right place, but
| the distance between them and the chair is measured. Why?
| Well, if you 're learning to fly an aircraft that burns
| ~$150 per hour (or more), and you can practice a ton of
| circuits in X-plane, it is a hell of a lot cheaper to try
| to get good at it outside of the aircraft first.
| quest88 wrote:
| I'm not sure what you're asking. I did lots of my
| instrument training in an xplane simulator. Physically
| pushing buttons helped me create a flow that then felt
| natural when flying in the plane and in clouds for the
| first time.
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| > A quality HOTAS setup can be had for under $400...
|
| Can you recommend anything?
| hellcow wrote:
| As a stick, VKB Guardian NXT Evo Premium, and either a 2nd
| one of those for HOSAS or a Thrustmaster TWCS throttle with
| Nyogel 767a applied to prevent sticking on the rails.
|
| The stick is $200 including a substantial shipping fee from
| China. The TWCS comes bundled with a (worse) stick at $145,
| and you can resell the bundled stick for $70 new bringing
| the throttle cost down to ~$75. Nyogel is ~$13 on Amazon.
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| Thanks, awesome!
| jamesy0ung wrote:
| > As a stick, VKB Guardian NXT Evo Premium, and either a
| 2nd one of those for HOSAS or a Thrustmaster TWCS
| throttle with Nyogel 767a applied to prevent sticking on
| the rails.
|
| Don't get anything less than a VKB Gladiator. You'll buy
| a Extreme 3D Pro and then find yourself wanting a VKB
| later.
| zippergz wrote:
| What percentage of x-plane users do you think ACTUALLY use it
| for learning to fly an airplane (in the sense that they do or
| will go fly that actual plane IRL)? I'd bet a lot of money
| that it's less than 5%. They are optimizing for an
| aspirational but tiny use case.
| ziddoap wrote:
| > _What percentage of x-plane users do you think ACTUALLY
| use it for learning to fly an airplane_
|
| What does it matter? I play city simulation games, and want
| them to be realistic, because I find the realism fun. Not
| because I plan on building my own city.
|
| Wanting a realistic flight simulator that gives the real
| sensation of flying does not mean you must then become a
| pilot.
| 0xffff2 wrote:
| And unlike any city sim game I'm aware of, X-Plane is
| actually used as a research tool in real aerospace
| engineering applications.
| masklinn wrote:
| You know that if you want a more arcade oriented flight sim
| there's flight simulator right?
|
| That's not Laminar's goal, and that's not the market
| they're in. You can see that in the post, it's by the
| founder of Laminar. It's pages upon pages of gushing over
| flight modelling.
| throwaway675309 wrote:
| I feel like the use case of people who want extremely
| accurate flight modeling and physics + want to control
| their plane with a QWERTY keyboard is 0%.
| waynecochran wrote:
| It would be funny to peak into a cockpit and see a pilot
| w a QWERTY keyboard on his lap.
| selectodude wrote:
| Well, pop into the cockpit of the A380 or the A350 and
| you'll see that exact situation.
|
| https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUdKMKeXUAAjrFO?format=jpg&na
| me=...
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| I'm in that "0%", for what it's worth.
|
| I want the leisure time my kids and I spend on X-Plane to
| count towards my/their overall ability to fly a small
| plane someday (a lifelong dream), but (a) I don't have
| room for flight gear -- there's barely space for my tiny
| home office desk, and (b) I can't even justify spending
| $100 right now for a flight yoke amid other financial
| obligations (it was a splurge to spend $60 for X-Plane
| 11).
|
| Honestly, I probably would have bought Microsoft's 2020
| FS instead if it ran on macOS.
| Alupis wrote:
| You don't need to invest in all that kit if you don't
| want too - I have most of the pretty typical "kit" for a
| flight simmer, yet I'm often too lazy to haul it all out
| and set it up (I don't leave it out in between "sessions"
| since I work from that computer too).
|
| So, very often I wind up flying with just my cheap
| Logitech joystick, but even an XBox controller would be a
| huge step up from mouse/keyboard only.
|
| Having programmable buttons available at your fingertips
| without having to take your eyes off screen and look for
| a button really adds to the immersion in my opinion.
| quest88 wrote:
| My opinion is that people who start in simulator have a
| hard time adjusting to flying visually (the
| fundamentals). The sim forces you to look at your
| instruments which is a bad habit to break.
| numpad0 wrote:
| When I play Assetto Corsa I don't necessarily seeking to
| simulate operating dipsticks and clearing TPMS warnings.
| But I don't want to be able to go through corners without
| braking either.
| throckmortra wrote:
| Anecdotally: a lot! I find it very useful for practicing
| IFR procedures and approaches. You can connect it to an
| external comm service like Vatsim and a real human will
| even give you vectors and clearances! (They, too, are using
| it for realistic practice for a job with air traffic
| control)
| TylerE wrote:
| Hardly aspirational.
|
| They sell a (much more expensive) version that is FAA-
| certified for training.
| masklinn wrote:
| > They sell a (much more expensive) version that is FAA-
| certified for training.
|
| It's not even _that_ much more expensive, the Pro edition
| is 750.
|
| Though unless you also have real sim hardware it's a
| completely useless expense as aside from FAA cert
| validators the features are mostly for multi-projector
| systems (image warping, edge blending).
| MaxBarraclough wrote:
| > sometimes they emphasize visuals and cool effects (like 3d
| cockpits) at the expense of making the planes fun and practical
| to fly from a normal computer setup
|
| They don't really emphasize visuals. Even with X-Plane 12, the
| graphics will still be far behind those of Microsoft Flight
| Simulator. Thankfully they will be overhauling the graphics for
| trees, which currently look like something from the 90's. [0]
|
| > it has gotten less and less enjoyable to fly xplane with that
| kind of a setup because of the emphasis on making it look cool
| over making it behave realistically
|
| As others have said, you might be better served by Microsoft
| Flight Simulator. It prioritises approachability far more than
| X-Plane does, and isn't going for the professional/approved
| flight simulation market.
|
| > (I don't consider having to click a graphic of a physical
| switch on the screen with my mouse more realistic than hitting
| a key on my keyboard). You can fix some of it with key
| mappings, but it's clear that this experience is not the
| priority.
|
| I'd be very surprised if it weren't possible to map the button
| to a key, provided you have enough keys on your keyboard that
| aren't already bound.
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxLqU-NJhbE
| Alupis wrote:
| > I'd be very surprised if it weren't possible to map the
| button to a key, provided you have enough keys on your
| keyboard that aren't already bound.
|
| Everything can be bound to a key or keys.
|
| The reason we often click/flip switches with the mouse in a
| virtual cockpit is partly the fun, but also it familiarizes
| you with the location of things in different cockpits. It
| also increases work load, especially during critical phases
| of flight such as landing/take off, making a slightly more
| realistic feeling simulation.
|
| Just pressing a button on the keyboard doesn't achieve that,
| even if it results in the same thing happening to the model.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| I hope someone gives the author a ride on an F-4 to try it out in
| real life.
| bsder wrote:
| The F-4 Phantom: Proof that pigs _can_ fly if you strap big
| enough engines to their ass.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > First off, thanks to this intensive, minimum-sleep, once-in-a-
| lifetime week, we now have an F-4 flight model that is accurate
| enough to be used for actual F-4 flight instruction...
|
| Given the F-4 is obsolete, and it looks like it's been retired by
| everyone except Iran and South Korea, I wonder how practical it
| would have been to get an actually flight simulator for one, and
| reverse engineer the flight model from its software.
|
| It probably would be super-difficult computer history project,
| but probably pretty interesting. Might not even be worth it
| either, since given the technology of the time it wouldn't
| surprise me if the simulation actually wasn't as accurate as
| desired here.
|
| Interesting links found while writing this comment:
|
| https://www.digitalcheck.com/f-4-phantom-flight-simulator/ (The
| F-4 Phantom: Building a Flight Simulator That Ran on Film)
|
| https://www.flightmuseum.com/explore/link-f-4-simulator/ (Link
| F-4D "Phantom II" Simulator)
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMc1qqxWCeM ("a partial teardown
| of a CPK91/A24G Flight Data Computer from AireSearch - an analog
| electromechanical computer from the late 1960s, use to control
| the inner workings of the F4.")
| bvanderveen wrote:
| I love that Austen Meyer is still blogging about a week of all-
| nighters on his pet project almost 30 years later, and the level
| of palpable stoke is off the charts. A gem!
| rideontime wrote:
| Austin Meyer's blog posts are always so entertaining.
| mwambua wrote:
| Yeah, I'd love to have the sort of enthusiasm that he has for
| his work!
| wbobeirne wrote:
| Just getting into the sim world with MSFS but looking to pick up
| X-Plane as well. I see this is about X-Plane 12, but it's not for
| sale yet. Anyone know how their release schedule works? Are there
| upgrade paths if I buy X-Plane 11 now?
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| Sounds good, the extensive use of caps is a bit annoying though
| :P
| s3cur3 wrote:
| It's... kind of his1 thing. :) For instance:
| https://austinmeyer.com/why-does-god-hate-lancairs/
|
| 1 Austin Meyer, creator of X-Plane
| keyle wrote:
| On the other hand I love his writing. The passion for his topic
| and knowledge really oozes out of his words. AMAZING ;)
| edrxty wrote:
| I feel like we're reliving the golden age of flight sims again.
| There are a lot of good options available now including X-Plane,
| Microsoft Flight Simulator, DCS World, VTOL-VR, Tiny Combat
| Arena, etc.
| Koshkin wrote:
| I find DCS to be the best of the bunch, and MSFS too gimmicky
| to my taste.
|
| For those who want to simply have fun flying (in something of a
| combat setting) there is also Far Cry 5 or 6 - two beautiful
| games I can't recommend enough.
| selectodude wrote:
| The study-level aircraft have started coming to MSFS in
| droves. It's no longer a gimmick.
| Alupis wrote:
| > The study-level aircraft have started coming to MSFS in
| droves. It's no longer a gimmick.
|
| Yes, some extremely detailed aircraft have been released,
| but the underlying simulation is still lacking realism in
| some key areas. Many aircraft just "feel wrong" when flown.
| But it's a ton of fun, and the nice visuals really make it
| a joy to fly places. I find I spend a lot of time in MSFS
| these days, even though I still prefer X-Plane for the
| overall realism.
| Stevvo wrote:
| 3rd party developers can only do so much. 'Study level'
| just isn't possible in MSFS. For example, yoke position is
| not linked to control surface position. Move the yoke full
| deflection and you only might only see the control surface
| move 5% if you are at a high speed. If you model an
| aircraft in the sim accurately without these geared control
| surfaces then it will pull 20G turns at 200Kts.
|
| MSFS gets the most basic parts of the flight model and
| controls fundamentally wrong.
|
| (source: I have made multiple payware aircraft for both
| X-Plane and MSFS)
| jamesy0ung wrote:
| > I find DCS to be the best of the bunch, and MSFS too
| gimmicky to my taste.
|
| 100% agree, I enjoy the systems simulation in X-Plane, but I
| also want a DCS style native multiplayer so I can do
| formation
| mhh__ wrote:
| I would say that we are in a golden age of simracing games too,
| and we practically are, but one company that isn't doing so
| well (Motorsport games) owns a lot of them and could go under.
| otikik wrote:
| I am totally not into this kind of thing, but I can appreciate
| and admire passion when I see it. Well done on working on what
| you love, OP.
| zxspectrum1982 wrote:
| $59.99??? Really? How can X-Plane be that cheap?
| racingmars wrote:
| Hopefully they also sell a lot of the $820 professional use
| licenses, for flight training, commercial use, etc.
| tonyarkles wrote:
| I do love the business model... delete some features and
| charge >10x for the privilege :).
|
| More to the point, though, I get the impression that they run
| a pretty lean team and do a decent amount of volume. They
| definitely got my $60, and if going from 11 to 12 is a paid
| upgrade, they'll get my $60 again!
| hindsightbias wrote:
| He doesn't mention fuselage lift. That's a thing in the F-4. I
| think 20%+ in some old aero reference book I had.
| avereveard wrote:
| https://developer.x-plane.com/2018/05/better-fuselages-throu...
| his take on fuselage
| masklinn wrote:
| I'd assume fuselage lift was already part of the model because
| of previous aircrafts.
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