[HN Gopher] The integrated timetable of Switzerland
___________________________________________________________________
The integrated timetable of Switzerland
Author : jokteur
Score : 205 points
Date : 2022-06-20 08:54 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.jokteur.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.jokteur.com)
| toss1 wrote:
| The people running the Boston Transit system REALLY need to read
| this
|
| Very impressed with the Swiss system. I could consistently take
| my seat, and watch a station clock as the departure time
| approached, and the train would inevitably start to roll on the
| very second. It seemed like the conductors really took pride in
| the exactness.
|
| It was also worrisome one evening when I was traveling alone with
| all my ski racing gear (multiple bags and ski bags). The schedule
| showed elapsed time between stop-departure as one minute at the
| small town station where I had to disembark. The doors seemed to
| open randomly at one end of the car or the other, but never both,
| and no conductor to be found to ask. I got all ready, sprinted
| with the gear to the open door, got everything off, and the train
| indeed left in 60 seconds. Fortunately, I was so nervous that I
| managed to get everything off with about 30sec to spare...
| sschueller wrote:
| The Bunker Hill Memorial Bridge built during the big dig was
| designed by a Swiss. I recall reading that during construction
| the designers visited the site and noticed there being an issue
| (one of many at the big dig) where the rebar was incorrectly
| spaced and had to be completely redone or it would have
| collapsed before the opening.
| alx__ wrote:
| What's wild is that the width of Switzerland is nearly the
| distance between SF and LA. We're still figuring out how to build
| one train line. On mostly flat ground. Maybe when I'm retired
| we'll have a better transit system
| mfsch wrote:
| What isn't explained in the article is how this was made
| possible. While carefully adjusting departure times is certainly
| part of it, there were also a range of construction projects that
| shaved minutes off the travel times between major hubs to bring
| them just below multiples of 30 minutes (and 15 minutes in some
| cases). This makes it much easier to coordinate arrivals and
| departures and minimize transfer times.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_2000
| jokteur wrote:
| Author here: great suggestion, I will add this at the end of
| the article for supplementary readings
| londons_explore wrote:
| I _hope_ that every infrastructure project tries to make a
| measure of the total economic gain of said project.
|
| Getting people around quicker is part of that (many models use
| a cost-per-hour for citizen time on the train). More efficient
| connections are part of travel time, and a simulation of a
| large number of potential journeys on some proposed
| infrastructure would show that.
|
| That means that when government is considering how to allocate
| $X of budget, they should naturally end up choosing projects
| that help align the schedules, even if nobody explicitly tried
| to do such an alignment, simply by choosing the projects that
| are best value for money.
| jeromegv wrote:
| They do this for transit projects in Toronto. They calculate
| the total infrastructure + operational cost of the project
| over 60 years then compare it with the estimated economical
| benefits of having this project.
|
| They still ended up approving many negative projects, even
| while there were other cheaper/better located transit
| projects with more benefits. The political cost of cancelling
| those projects was higher (ex: Mayor has campaigned on
| getting it approved and there was no way he would get back on
| that)
|
| It's still interesting to see it and calculate it, as a
| matter of transparency, but its still not a guarantee of
| success.
|
| https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/costs-for-scarborough-subway-
| and-...
| ur-whale wrote:
| > They do this for transit projects in Toronto.
|
| They may do this, but whether the number they derive has
| any kind of meaning or value is another thing altogether.
| Ma8ee wrote:
| When you do this kind of estimates, in particular when the
| time scale is many decades, the outcome depends on way to
| many assumptions and other projections to even a little
| reliable. I still think it is useful exercises, but it is
| certainly legitimate to use it as only one of many
| variables in the decision making process.
| bombcar wrote:
| I spent a large amount of time years ago reading the
| LOSSAN reports [95] and it would have been interesting to
| see things noted as "for certain will help" and "most
| likely will help" etc. Many of the improvements were
| things like "double track this single-track section
| between two double-tracked ones" which would almost
| certainly help; others were things like bridge
| replacements which wouldn't necessarily help but would
| prevent maintenance issues in the future, to things like
| station improvements which would only really help travel
| times if travel volumes got above a certain amount.
|
| For example, this project: https://www.octa.net/LOSSAN-
| Rail-Corridor-Agency/Central-Coa... doesn't really change
| average transit times, but _would_ allow two or three
| trains to "start" each day at the farthest north.
|
| Of course US passenger rail is in such a state that
| there's almost always very obvious low-hanging fruit.
|
| [95]: https://www.octa.net/LOSSAN-Rail-Corridor-
| Agency/Overview/
| ur-whale wrote:
| > I hope that every infrastructure project tries to make a
| measure of the total economic gain of said project.
|
| This is basically impossible to do short of shutting the
| system down for year to measure the loss (unthinkable).
|
| And even then, you'd have a measurement that doesn't mean
| anything because it couldn't measure the opportunity costs of
| the path not taken when the chocie was made initially.
|
| As a matter of fact, I'll go one step further: I don't even
| think the question makes sense.
|
| Economies are chaotic systems, and even if it is sometimes
| rather clear after the fact that a specific choice leads to
| overall positive outcomes (such as choosing to implement a
| high-quality public transportation system in Switzerland),
| actually measuring the "gain" is basically impossible. Worse:
| it's an ill-defined question.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| this is already done; this is what modelling and simulation
| is for. at least in the US pretty much all projects require
| some kind of alternatives analysis, and at least one of
| those alternatives must be "do nothing at all."
|
| whether the model's assumptions are correct, and whether
| politicians actually allocate funds based on projected
| efficacy, are another matter entirely.
| belter wrote:
| No doubt Swiss train network is excellent.
|
| If we are to trust to published statistics form other countries
| for 2018, and using for the Swiss system, the 2021 data mentioned
| in the article: "about 92% of passenger trains were on-time" this
| would make it for punctuality, somewhat middle of the league.
| Behind Poland, Greece and Bulgaria for example.
|
| This is assuming being on time is: "a delay of five minutes or
| less". For Swiss network the article uses the definition: "a
| delay of three minutes or less".
|
| "Share of regional and local passenger rail services classified
| as punctual in Europe in 2018, by country":
| https://www.statista.com/statistics/1255048/punctuality-regi...
| smoe wrote:
| Currently on the phone so can't add many sources, but I think
| you can't really compare the punctually of trains across
| european countries like this. E.g if I remember correctly in
| Germany, a train is late after 5 minutes 59 seconds, whereas
| Switzerlands threshold is 2:59. Also Switzerland measures
| delays at arrival at destination, not departure from origin. I
| don't really know about other countries thought.
|
| https://company.sbb.ch/de/ueber-die-sbb/verantwortung/die-sb...
| bigDinosaur wrote:
| Hopefully European countries aren't prone to manipulating the
| statistics. An example that used to happen in my (Australian)
| city: if a train was running late, they'd skip stations:
| magically, it now arrived at its destination on time!
| dirkf wrote:
| In my European country if a train was running very late they
| could turn around the train some stops earlier, thereby not
| servicing the stations further down the track. Since the
| train would never arrive there it implied it also couldn't be
| late and thus it would not be counted in the statistics as
| such.
|
| The rail company has a government-imposed punctuality target
| and their result is used in the calculation of how much money
| they get from the government the next year, i.e. the usual
| "once a KPI becomes a target..."
| CHsurfer wrote:
| Was on a Swiss train that did exactly this yesterday. To be
| fair, the delay originated in Italy (20 minutes late)and
| there was a minimal impact for people wanting to get to or
| leave from that city (Bern) as passenger on the affected
| train could get off one stop early and then catch another
| train to finish their leg and passengers trying to board the
| train in Bern just had to catch another train to the
| subsequent stop (Olten) to get on the late train there.
|
| Finally, this was the first time in over 20 years of light
| rail use in Switzerland that I experienced this.
| tonfa wrote:
| > Was on a Swiss train that did exactly this yesterday.
|
| Though there's usually replacement trains for those use
| cases. The main stations have a standby train (Dispozug)
| ready to immediately replace any train that's cancelled or
| delayed (and avoid propagating delays).
|
| https://twitter.com/SBBTrainDriver/status/15080952614149365
| 7... (is an example, the driver spends 3h+ just waiting in
| the train in case it needs to replace another train)
| [deleted]
| wongarsu wrote:
| German rail has what we call the Profalla-Wende (a "turn"
| named after the former minister of transport). If a train is
| sufficiently delayed, and at the final destination would turn
| around to do the same trip in the other direction, it might
| skip the last few stops and just turn around earlier. Now the
| train is on time, skipped stops aren't counted in the
| statistic, the ripple effects from tracks and stations
| blocked by the delayed train are gone, and everyone who
| wanted to go to the final destination is skrewed.
| netsharc wrote:
| German Rail did that: translated presentation from German:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGCmPLWZKd8 (with a
| translator that sadly breathes into the mic...)
| jeroenhd wrote:
| I don't know about the statistics reported to the European
| level but most Dutch railways don't take into account
| "cancelled" trains when determining punctuality. A train is
| "cancelled" when it's 30 minutes late and therefore doesn't
| alter the punctuality scores.
|
| It does stop at all stops unless it's really late and
| passengers might as well get out at a stopover station and
| transfer trains, however if it's sufficiently delayed it may
| be put on side tracks to let other trains pass to prevent a
| ripple effect, delaying the train even more to keep the rest
| of the system working well.
| michaelscott wrote:
| The point is that Switzerland maintains this level of
| punctuality in addition to connecting the entire country, down
| to the village. That "down to the village" bit is the part that
| very few other public transport systems in the world have
| managed to get right, including those alternatives in your
| list.
|
| Of course, as you say this is about trusting the published
| statistics from the country itself. In the case of Switzerland,
| I can say from anecdotal experience that 92% is probably very
| close to the truth, if that helps?
| bwanab wrote:
| As an American living in a suburban Swiss village taking the
| bus into Geneva, I don't think the bus was more than 1 minute
| late once every hundred days. And I was pretty far along on
| the line. It was staggeringly punctual.
| jemen wrote:
| Because they way Switzerland is structured both in terms of
| administration and geography I don't think that a village in
| Switzerland is equivalent to a village in most other
| countries. Presumably the canton system results in more
| smaller cities and large villages, and the terrain means they
| are in a limited number of places. The largest cities are all
| within 100 km of each other. While a single trip in a large
| country can be longer than the entire length of Switzerland.
| It will of course be easier to match a timetable with short
| predictable distances at lower speeds.
| michaelscott wrote:
| I think there are pros and cons to both structures.
| Villages in Switzerland are well separated by geography
| that is physically difficult to overcome (i.e. mountains),
| even if the distances are not big. It's way easier to lay
| down a flat, long rail between 2 cities in, say, the US or
| Mexico than it is to do the same in Switzerland.
|
| The structure would probably need to change for larger
| countries though, it's true. But you could keep a lot of
| it; create long distance rails between major cities with
| stops along these rails for smaller towns to feed into.
| Some European countries have this type of structure, Italy
| for example, though it does get very tricky for the very
| smallest villages
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| The really smaller villages in the mountains are only
| connected by postal bus. The villages in the valley and
| what I could call small towns are connected by train, but
| it is far from ubiquitous.
| izacus wrote:
| 200km/h is "lower speeds"? That's the nominal speed of IC
| trains between Swiss population centers.
| carlhjerpe wrote:
| And Switzerland is quite a tiny country, so more than
| 200kph isn't worth it. Regular rail connected by wire
| will require much more maintenance going faster.
| izacus wrote:
| It's thus probably also worth counting the number of trips -
| I don't have numbers, but I have a feeling that SBB runs much
| more passenger trains daily than Polish or other systems do.
|
| The trains run more often and go to more places than any
| other place I've ever been to.
| Vinnl wrote:
| I think GP's point was also that the Swiss look middle-of-
| the-league only when comparing their strict definition (>3m
| is counted as a delay) with the looser definition used by
| other countries (>5m is counted as a delay). Presumably, if
| trains with a 4- or 5-minute delay were not counted as
| delayed, more than 92% of Swiss trains would be on time.
| fvdessen wrote:
| Fun fact, if a train is cancelled in Belgium, it doesn't
| count in the delayed statistics :)
| immmmmm wrote:
| Swiss here. Amazing system, using it everyday. Brutally expensive
| tickets tho.
| CaptainZapp wrote:
| Another Swiss here.
|
| Brutally expensive? Sure, when you look at full fare tickets.
| Since every Swiss, who uses public transport owns a half fare
| card those prices are (mostly) halfed, though.
|
| When it comes to commuter travel prices become outright
| reasonable.
|
| The best deal, if you use the train for a regular commute
| intercity is the Generalabonnement[0].
|
| ca. $4000 (6500 for first class) for a year of unrestricted
| travel throughout the (almost) whole country on any train is
| actually a steal.
|
| There are also special saver tickets, restricted to a specific
| train and usually booked well in advance, which can be outright
| cheap.
|
| [0] https://www.sbb.ch/en/travelcards-and-
| tickets/railpasses/ga/...
| ggambetta wrote:
| > a year of unrestricted travel throughout the (almost) whole
| country on any train
|
| Any train, or boat, or tram, or bus,... :)
|
| Source: expat in Zurich and loving it!
| kenneth wrote:
| Swiss expat living abroad. I'm in Switzerland just enough
| every year to feel the pain of the full fare tickets, and yet
| not enough to justify the cost of the half-fare card. I live
| in Asia, but I'm often flying in and out of Switzerland from
| short hops around Europe, and it's rather shocking and sad to
| pay far more for the train home from the Airport than my
| flight cost, almost every single time.
|
| Also then I do fly in long haul, I usually have the choice of
| a $100 train ride from Zurich or a far cheaper connecting
| flight to GVA followed by a $30 train. I would much rather
| take the train from ZRH but it's almost always cheaper to
| fly.
|
| Switzerland's public transit system is absolutely amazing and
| I use it anytime I'm in Switzerland -- but we have to admit
| it's one of the most expensive in the world.
| tauchunfall wrote:
| German here, who traveled a lot through Switzerland.
|
| I find it even more amazing that there are more people who
| have a Generalabonnement than a Bahncard 100 (the German
| equivalent which is a bit cheaper). [1]
|
| Commuting between Fribourg and Zurich was always great, even
| when there were only circa five minutes to change trains in
| Bern. It's so efficient, I always catched my train in Bern.
|
| [1] >2019: 500'000 Exemplare des GA sind seit dieser Woche im
| Umlauf. Dies entspricht im Vergleich zu vor 20 Jahren einer
| Verzwanzigfachung.
|
| >Anzahl der Besitzer einer BahnCard 100 bis 2021. Die
| BahnCard 100 der Deutschen Bahn wurde lange Zeit immer
| beliebter, im Jahr 2021 gab es rund 36.000 Besitzer.
| ls15 wrote:
| > I find it even more amazing that there are more people
| who have a Generalabonnement than a Bahncard 100 (the
| German equivalent which is a bit cheaper).
|
| GA costs about 50% of a typical monthly Swiss salary.
|
| BC100 costs about 100% of a typical monthly German salary.
| xenonite wrote:
| Germany has a 8.7 times larger area, and a 7.4 times
| longer rail network though.
| jlelse wrote:
| Yes, but in Germany you probably don't travel 8 times as
| much.
| [deleted]
| phaer wrote:
| > I find it even more amazing that there are more people
| who have a Generalabonnement than a Bahncard 100 (the
| German equivalent which is a bit cheaper). [1]
|
| To contextualize this a bit: Switzerland has about a tenth
| of the German population (~8.5M vs ~83M)
| pera wrote:
| Is there any alternative to this? Because that's about 4
| times the price of the normal monthly local bus pass in the
| US and the UK. Most people don't need to travel around the
| country, they just need to commute to their jobs.
| soco wrote:
| Apparently half a million Swiss did the math and decided 4
| times that local bus pass price is worth their money. It's
| not like you _have_ to get a GA. I don 't and I'm happy
| with the half-fare abo, my daughter has a local pass _and_
| a half-fare abo (which doesn 't help to the local pass
| reductions), but if you go in the mountains or skiing
| enough weekends (and many do) you will save lots with the
| GA - as the mountains are often not in your local bus
| network.
| ornornor wrote:
| 1/2 fare card is about 170$ a year and gives you 50% off
| every train ticket.
|
| There are yearly abos for specific routes (home to office,
| typically) that you can choose for 1/2/3/4/5 days a week.
| But the price usually gets close enough to a full GA that
| most people in this situation opt for a GA. And many
| employers cover the 1/2 fare card or GA for their
| employees.
|
| SBB also (used to?) has a plan where you get a yearly GA
| and a Tesla or eGolf in every major train station you
| arrive. It feels magical: get on any train any time and
| when you arrive there is a car waiting for you. Use it, get
| back on the train, and there is another car at your
| destination for you to drive. It isn't cheap but it's a
| pretty neat concept.
| prmoustache wrote:
| Yes you can only have the smaller passes. But taking the GA
| is really convenient. You just enter every public transport
| without thinking about buying a ticket. I had a general abo
| for years and decided against renewing it when I moved to a
| job 3min of biking distance from home, I missed it dearly
| despite owning a car.
|
| You are drunk after a late night. Some sort of public
| transport will bring you home. You want to do some hiking
| today? You just go to the nearest train station and decide
| at the last minute. You want to go to that music
| festival/concert on the other side of the country? Take the
| train, have a nap, chitchat or share a meal with your
| friend for a few hours without the stress of traffic,
| looking or paying for parking a car at your destination.
| Train is great, it allows you to move from A to B while
| basically being at the pub.
|
| You might not need to access your whole country but once
| you realize you can you use that opportunity and realize
| your country is much deeper and more interesting than you
| thought it was.
| lasftew wrote:
| That's all correct. In addition, you can get almost the
| same convencience without purchasing an expensive GA by
| using the EasyRide feature [1]. No more worrying about
| buying and choosing the right ticket.
|
| [1] https://www.sbb.ch/en/timetable/mobile-apps/sbb-
| mobile/easyr...
| lmc wrote:
| Amazing! Everywhere needs this
| CaptainZapp wrote:
| Yes, there are.
|
| Mostly, but not necessarily, within regional transportation
| networks.
|
| As a for example: I pay roughly $1200 for one year of
| travel within the city of Zurich and the adjacent zone
| including the airport.
|
| This includes any mode of transportation, except taxis.
|
| A Generalabonnement makes more sense, though, commuting
| from, say, Zurich to Basel, which is not uncommon.
|
| Edited to add: Regional commuter passes also allow for use
| of intercity trains, provided that they stop within your
| zone of validity.
| pera wrote:
| ah cool that sounds very reasonable then
| snovv_crash wrote:
| If you just want Zurich city it is less, about $850/year
| CaptainZapp wrote:
| That sounds about right.
| Stevvo wrote:
| However you look at, it's brutality expensive. It's nearly
| always cheaper to drive.
| CaptainZapp wrote:
| Maintaing a car (bottom line) in Switzerland hits you with
| a minimum of 800 Franks a month, or almost 10'000 Franks a
| year.
|
| A first class Generalabonnement is virtually half the price
| of that.
|
| So, no. It's certainly not cheaper to drive.
| doctor_lollipop wrote:
| Would you mind sharing your numbers? I recently tried to
| figure out how much my car costs me but it was less than
| half of your 10'000, so I'm wondering - either I missed
| something, or you have a rather expensive car.
| misja111 wrote:
| I'm from the Netherlands, living in Switzerland, and public
| transport prices in both countries are roughly the same.
| But other prices + salaries in CH are almost double the
| ones in NL. Also, punctuality, cleanliness and sitting
| space in Swiss trains is much better.
|
| So at least comparing to NL, public transport in CH is
| brutally cheap.
| gjulianm wrote:
| I wouldn't be so sure. Maybe if you look just at the price
| of the car itself, but between parking, gas, insurance,
| maintenance, the actual cost can get fairly high.
|
| I don't know about prices now, but when I lived there, if
| you actually needed to travel so much that the GA was worth
| it over the half-fare card, it definitely was worth it over
| the car, just on gas prices alone.
| Youden wrote:
| That depends on a lot of factors. If you live in or around
| Zurich for example, the median price just to rent a parking
| space is CHF 200/month, or CHF 2400/yr.
|
| For comparison, an adult GA is CHF 3860/yr, so paying for a
| parking space in Zurich alone puts you 2/3rd of the way to
| the cost of public transportation, even disregarding costs
| like insurance, the car itself, registration, vignette,
| fuel, vehicle maintenance, tyres and parking costs away
| from home.
| chinathrow wrote:
| Where did you get the price figure for a parking space in
| Zurich?
|
| It's CHF 300 per year in a blue zone where you have to
| find a spot whenever you feel like parking your car.
| throwaway2412 wrote:
| I pay 250 / month for a parking space in an underground
| garage. That's close to the upper limit from what I've
| seen. Usually, the prices start around 100-150 for a
| dedicated parking spot outside.
| Youden wrote:
| That number was from Immoscout24 listings of parking
| spaces for rent [0].
|
| If you have vacant spaces in blue zones near you, that's
| a viable option. There are plenty of places where that's
| not the case though.
|
| [0]: https://www.immoscout24.ch/de/parkplatz/mieten/ort-
| zuerich
| jo6gwb wrote:
| And it might be quite a bit faster too. For example, to get
| to the airport from where I lived would take 3 hours by
| train and 2 by car.
| prmoustache wrote:
| Only if you own the car in the first place and wouldn't
| part with it by any mean.
|
| Owning a car is brutally expensive.
| baq wrote:
| expensive in absolute or relative terms? is it expensive e.g.
| compared to a car?
| herbst wrote:
| Swiss here, it always depends. Some rides are cheaper by car
| but take less time by train and you have WiFi and fresh
| coffee in trains so it's only partially travel time partially
| leisure or work time.
|
| Some routes are more expensive, but again way more
| comfortable than a car.
|
| The there are dozens of hacks to save. Early booking, last
| minute bookings, half fair (which is only $200 or so a year
| and makes you pay half for everything including boats and
| some mountain trains), $50 24h all inclusive tickets, ...
|
| IMO if you assume our median income to be 3 times that of
| Austria (or Germany, Italy for that matter). And our tickets
| on average cost only 1.5-2x as much while we actually have
| one of the best networks you can think of I would say it's
| not expensive at all.
|
| My all in leasing car is $500 + petrol. For 2 people getting
| 2 all inklusive Tickets would still be cheaper.
| cybrox wrote:
| Half fare card is CHF 185 for the first year or CHF 165 for
| every subsequent year (CHF 120 / CHF 100 if you're 16-26).
|
| For anyone planning to spend any amount of time in
| Switzerland and using PT, it is well worth considering. It
| does exactly what it says, you only pay half.
|
| So assuming you travel from Zurich to Bern (CHF 51 -> CHF
| 26, you safe CHF 25), it's worth it after only 8 trips.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Everyone seems to have a half price card except tourists.
| I think this is designed to get subsidize tourists less,
| because otherwise Swiss rail and metro prices appear
| twice as much as other European countries.
| myrion wrote:
| Tourists have access to tourist-only specials though,
| which make up for that, I think:
| https://www.sbb.ch/en/leisure-
| holidays/inspiration/internati...
| jokteur wrote:
| I would say, if you take single tickets (even with the half-
| fare card), the tickets are quite more expensive than the
| trip with a normal car (counting costs of car, of gas,
| insurrance, ...).
|
| However, if you have a monthly fare because you go somewhere
| regularly, it is still expensive, but much more managable.
|
| The monthly General Abo (unlimited travel for all public
| transports in Switzerland) is ~340$/month. A parking spot in
| a city could already be from 80$ to 200$ a month.
| cybrox wrote:
| I'd like to add that the fact that single tickets are
| [sometimes too] expensive in some cases is due to the
| approach of billing by geographic zones, which has its own
| up- and downsides.
|
| For example: If I want to go from somewhere around Lake
| Zurich to Zurich, I have to pay to "travel in every
| geographical zone" between me and Zurich. However, this
| also allows me to travel freely in these zones.
|
| In addition to that, if you pay for a return trip (which
| most people usually do), you automatically pay for
| travelling freely in these zones in any direction for a
| full 24 hours.
|
| So assuming a half-fare card, I pay CHF 3.20 to take the
| bus 500m and back, which is ridiculously expensive for that
| distance, however, I "only" pay CHF 12.90 for riding all
| forms of PT (train, bus, ship, etc.) between me and Zurich,
| including the whole city for a full day, which is
| relatively reasonable for Zurich standards.
| grncdr wrote:
| That is _way_ cheaper than I would have guessed. A yearly
| subscription for public transport in Berlin alone costs at
| least twice that.
| p1anecrazy wrote:
| S/he wrote 340 a month, not a year
| herbst wrote:
| City tickets in Switzerland also are around 300-500/year.
| (sure our cities are nowhere near Berlin in size) the
| 340/m option does allow you to use nearly any transport
| (boats, trains, buses, some cable cars) in the whole
| country including price reductions (up to 50%) for most
| non-included transport methods (like private mountain
| trains or tourist hot spot cable cars).
| a4a4a4a4 wrote:
| > City tickets in Switzerland also are around
| 300-500/year
|
| Zurich zone 110 (city center) is 782chf/year ($816) for
| the non-transferable one. Bern is 790chf/year. I'm not
| sure where you're getting "300-500/year".
|
| https://www.zvv.ch/zvv/de/abos-und-
| tickets/abos/netzpass.htm...
| https://www.mylibero.ch/de/libero-abo/jahresabo
| herbst wrote:
| That's absolutely new to me. Last time I got a Libero it
| was like 380 or so for 2 zones.
|
| Thanks for the correction
| runeks wrote:
| > I would say, if you take single tickets (even with the
| half-fare card), the tickets are quite more expensive than
| the trip with a normal car (counting costs of car, of gas,
| insurrance, ...).
|
| Which numbers are you using for this calculation?
|
| I assume you have some price-per-kilometer traveled by car
| (all expenses included) and by train?
| tragomaskhalos wrote:
| That's not a bad trade-off to be fair. In the UK tickets (at
| least inter-city) are also brutally expensive but the system
| is, to put it kindly, often flakey.
| midasuni wrote:
| I had a delay repay for the first time in years a few weeks
| ago - someone threw themselves under a train at Milton Keynes
| just before my train was due to leave Euston.
|
| I don't consider PS25 each way Manchester-London to be
| brutally expensive to be honest - http://brfares.com/!faredet
| ail?orig=MAN&dest=EUS&rte=371&tkt...
| gmac wrote:
| > I don't consider PS25 each way Manchester-London to be
| brutally expensive to be honest
|
| I think you're citing pretty much a best case there. I just
| put in the same journey on a morning next week and got
| PS150 each way, which I suspect is still not the worst
| case.
|
| Before the pandemic, my wife used to pay about PS5K/year
| for a London - Brighton season ticket (a distance of about
| 50 miles).
|
| Possibly the most infuriating thing is that it's highly
| unpredictable what's cheap and what's expensive, and long
| journeys can often be several times the cost of flying.
| From a social-welfare/cost-of-carbon and oil-crisis
| perspective, this is nuts, especially when you compare what
| Germany is doing[1].
|
| [1] https://e360.yale.edu/digest/germany-slashes-summer-
| train-fa...
| iso1631 wrote:
| PS25 each way is a walk up fare, you just need to take
| the slightly slower train (which is still faster than the
| car and about the same speed it was in the 90s), arriving
| in London about 1030.
|
| Peak time commuting tickets are likewise a bargain.
| Brighton-London for PS5,300 5 times a day 50 weeks a year
| at 65 miles each way is 32,500 miles, or 16p per mile.
| For a car doing 45mpg that will cost you PS6,300 in fuel
| alone, let alone parking, depreciation, wear and tear,
| etc.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| The car will carry 4 people and luggage. So if you
| consider car pooling, or you need to be in office 3 times
| a week, it's not a good deal. Or your car is electric.
| Even for a couple, a car makes economic sence.
|
| Also consider comfort - have you see how crowded those
| trains get, sometimes you might have to stand for hours
| on a long distance train. If you are able bodied man
| thats one thing, but if you are pregnant or injured,
| that's tought.
|
| They are not suppose to be close.
| iso1631 wrote:
| Sure, you could spend 3-4 hours driving from Brighton to
| central London and paying PS65 to do it.
|
| It doesn't come close with season tickets, hence the
| reason so many people chose to commute by train rather
| than driving. Also why people take the train rather than
| commuter bus services which tend to be cheaper
| Zenst wrote:
| Shows as PS46.70, which still isn't bad, though off-peak is
| often less painful. If you have to use the train to commute
| to work, then things start raking up.
|
| I live 15 miles outside London and 17 years ago was paying
| best part of PS2k a year just to get into central london
| and back, today it would be the best part of PS3k a year to
| make that same journey. Using the same tracks, (probably
| trains) and stations all those years ago. Though more
| people than back then, which was already at levels upon
| peak work commutes that saw you playing sardines.
| CaptainZapp wrote:
| That almost gets you one year of travel in 2nd class
| throughout the entire Swiss train network (including
| public transport in cities).
| iso1631 wrote:
| Nobody should be commuting from Manchester to London.
| That's PS46.70 return, so PS23.35 each way, arriving in
| London about 1030.
|
| Peak time london commuting is the most expensive part of
| the network to deliver, as it requires increased amount
| of capital that's mostly idle, yet peak time commuters
| get massive discounts compared with occasional use.
| Compare Reading to London. A season ticket works out to
| be about PS22 return for 5 days a week, a normal peak
| time ticket is PS52.10.
| vladharbuz wrote:
| As someone who has lived long-term in both countries, I think
| that while the Swiss system is absolutely better than the UK
| system, people in the UK are a bit _too_ self-deprecating
| about the UK rail system, which is, all things considered,
| relatively good. Honestly, the biggest pain point in my eyes
| is that, because of privatisation, it's not all integrated
| into a single booking/refund/information system, which
| unfortunately does it make it _feel_ quite flakey.
| martinald wrote:
| It will be as of next year:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Railways.
| vladharbuz wrote:
| How did I miss this? Thank you for linking it, I'm very
| curious how things will turn out!
| CaptainZapp wrote:
| > which is, all things considered, relatively good
|
| It really depends on the line and the company. Virgin from
| London to Manchester is a reasonably good experience.
| Anything Northern (as a for example) makes me fume when I
| even think of taking any of their trains.
|
| Also, prices for spontaneous bookings are outrageous. Even
| compared to Switzerland.
| iggldiggl wrote:
| > Honestly, the biggest pain point in my eyes is that,
| because of privatisation, it's not all integrated into a
| single booking/refund/information system, which
| unfortunately does it make it _feel_ quite flakey.
|
| Despite some shortcomings in that area, at least in the UK
| they _did_ keep a common ticketing system with through-
| ticketing (and integral passenger rights for the whole of
| your journey) between operators even through the whole of
| the privatisation saga. In Germany they 've mostly ignored
| that topic and we're mostly only saved by the fact most
| long distance trains are still operated by DB, and for
| international journeys it's equally bad, with often no
| through-tickets available.
| vladharbuz wrote:
| I have to admit I don't fully understand the issue you're
| talking about, but I'd like to find out more. Could you
| give an example? I've booked trains entirely via DB from
| Basel Bad Bf to Copenhagen, for example, but perhaps you
| mean something else?
| neosat wrote:
| Having experienced this during an exchange program, without any
| car there, I never once felt constrained that I couldn't travel
| where I wanted. A great example that I wish every country aspired
| to emulate
| MichaelRazum wrote:
| Can confirm. Trains are good. BUT in some situations very
| expensive, where you have to pay like 20$ for 20 minutes. And it
| is not transperent, why some roads are more expensive then
| others.
| jgrahamc wrote:
| If you're wondering about the title here I assume that the writer
| is a French speaker and is using the word "correspondance"
| meaning "transfer or connection".
| jokteur wrote:
| You are right, thanks. I changed it
| rspoerri wrote:
| i just encountered this video while browsing around from this
| topic:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTnFpKCAJtE
|
| Very interesting documentation on the process of tunneling.
| atemerev wrote:
| Not only this, the transportation network is intermodal-
| synchronized. Meaning that e.g. most buses will come to train
| stations at times that are convenient to take a train to
| somewhere, without much waiting. This is achieved by constant
| numerical simulations and optimizations of real transport
| patterns.
| archerx wrote:
| Has anybody told this to Morges? I would routinely get off the
| train in Bussigny just to watch the bus leave the bus stop as
| everyone is arriving. We would collectively let out a sigh of
| disgust. I've seen many people confront the following bus
| drivers about this problem, I know the drivers are not in
| control but some people just vent their frustrations on them
| anyway.
|
| I even saw a mass walk out of an MBC bus because they were so
| disgusted with the service. At least the TL (Transport
| Lausanne) isn't garbage like MBC.
| [deleted]
| atemerev wrote:
| The problem with this is that if buses come rarely enough,
| you can optimize either for bus-train or for train-bus
| transition, and you could get in the unlucky part :(
| jokteur wrote:
| Once per year, you are allowed to complain on
| https://www.projet-horaire.ch/fr/prise-de-position.html.
| However, the delay for next years timetable has already
| passed.
|
| I did this once for a bus to a village which didn't wait on
| the train and they made corrections for the next scheduling.
| So I guess it works ?
| archerx wrote:
| That's pretty cool, thanks for the info!
| snovv_crash wrote:
| MBC was consistently rushing, late and occasionally just
| never arrived (particularly the 701). I think this is a
| localized issue though, I don't see this anywhere else.
| archerx wrote:
| My train to and from work has been late almost every day since
| last year. I feel like I don't live in Switzerland. So where are
| the punctual trains that this article is talking about and I am
| paying so much for?
| jokteur wrote:
| This is what you get with averages: you may have lots of
| problems on one particular line, but compared to the sheer
| numbers of daily trains in Switzerland that _are_ on time, it
| doesn 't change the average so much.
| archerx wrote:
| The same train almost everyday for over a year? I'm sorry but
| the CFF loves smelling their own farts talking about how
| great they are but let's be honest here the Romandie part
| gets treated like a second class citizen. The trains are
| dirty, I remember seeing the same goop and grime on an inside
| train wall for over a month (I'm very consistent with my
| train timing so I ended up mostly taking the same train). The
| trains are late all the time, even yesterday for a simple
| trip from Vevey to Lausanne the train was late and I saw a
| lot of +5 min and more delays for other trains at the
| stations.
|
| I know things are better in Swiss German parts but my
| experience has been so I have considered maybe getting a car
| or anything to avoid the trains.
| DeathArrow wrote:
| Have you tried to complain?
| archerx wrote:
| I have sent a couple emails to MBC but it was in vain.
| lasftew wrote:
| > second class citizen
|
| As far as I know, investments in particular in local and
| regional trains is heavily driven by cantonal investments.
| For example ZVV (Zurcher Verkehrsverbund) contracts the
| S-Bahn network from SBB and finances a good part of its
| operations. While Zurich's network is therefore quite
| excelent, I am not sure other cantons invest at similar
| levels and therefore enjoy a worse experience.
| jokteur wrote:
| I am sorry that you have this kind of experience. Vevey -
| Morges is really a weak point of the network, and I do
| agree that the Romandie gets treated like a second class
| citizen.
|
| I also use the train daily to get to Romandie (to
| Lausanne), and I almost never have problems: maybe the
| train is late every two weeks by 5 minutes.
| archerx wrote:
| Maybe you're lucky or my route is cursed, either way I
| hope you don't have to go through my awful experience.
| I've had hours of delays over the past year (and it is
| making me angry). It's sad but when I would see the delay
| was on 5mins I would do sigh of relief because 15-20min
| delays were becoming common and a 5min delay at this
| point becomes tolerable. Also to add extra salt to the
| wound, the train would leave 10mins and then wait an
| extra 10mins in front of the Lausanne station because
| reasons. In the end a 10min trip became 30mins.
| masklinn wrote:
| > and I do agree that the Romandie gets treated like a
| second class citizen.
|
| Does that mean Ticino is a third-class citizen?
| lasftew wrote:
| I don't think this is true. There were massive
| investments into the Ticino regional rail network over
| the last 10-20 years, partially driven by the NEAT
| extension, which shortened travel times between regional
| centers (Lugano - Locarno - Bellinzona) dramatically.
|
| What doesn't seem to work well are interconnections with
| neighboring Italy, but that is likely not due to
| underinvestment on the Swiss side. Road traffic is
| therefore still a huge issue in Ticino, as many Italian
| workers cross the border twice per day by car due to the
| lack of adequate public transport options.
| sschueller wrote:
| Which train are you taking? There may be construction and it is
| planned. Or it might be the train from Milan which no mater
| what the SBB tries to do is always late! Then again if you have
| ever been to Milano Centrale you kind of understand...
| eterevsky wrote:
| It would be interesting to see what will happen if the times of
| the trains are moved to random other times within the hour. In
| might well be that short transfer times is just statistical
| consequence of having many scheduled trains.
|
| There are probably some trains that are intentionally
| synchronized, but I don't think there's too many of them, because
| synchronizing all trains is simply impossible. For instance if
| you have a timetable where it's convenient to transfer from train
| A to train B, then in the same timetable it will be inconvenient
| to transfer from B to A since you will have to wait almost 30
| minutes (or an hour for hourly trains).
|
| Also a nitpick: "Gemeinde (administrative limit of a city)".
| Gemeinde means "municipality". All small villages belong to some
| municipalities.
| denni9th wrote:
| It is possible for train A and train B to arrive at the same
| time, and depart at the same time, allowing convenient
| transfers in both directions. From my brief experience on Swiss
| railways, I found this arrangement to be quite common.
| eterevsky wrote:
| A train usually stops at the station for only around a
| minute, so there is no time to change to another platform
| unless another train arrives later.
|
| There are some trains that stop at the big train station for
| a longer period of time, so it might theoretically be
| possible. I live in Switzerland and I don't remember ever
| changing trains like that (though maybe I just didn't
| notice).
| jokteur wrote:
| Author here: it would be a good point of comparison, to
| generate a random network and look at the same statistics. I
| will do this maybe in a future article.
| eterevsky wrote:
| I'll be sure to read it. :)
|
| Just to clarify, not another network, just shift all trains
| by a random number of minutes.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Switzerland is a very rich country per capita. It can afford to
| spend a lot on public transit to get a very good service.
|
| That's important to remember when wondering if these ideas could
| be applied to your country.
| jeffbee wrote:
| It has approximately the same GDP per capita as the San
| Francisco Bay Area, while having also about the same
| population, but more than double the land area. And yet, while
| I could take a direct train from Basel to Zurich in less than
| an hour, the similar trip from Berkeley (comparable in size to
| Basel) to San Jose (much larger than Zurich) would require a
| minimum of 1 transfer and take over 2 hours. Our trip isn't
| even cheaper. It would be 17 CHF at full price on SBB, round
| trip, but it would be $11.40 each way on BART+VTA
|
| The fact is we're rich as anybody here and what we spent our
| money on is 12-lane freeways.
| Leherenn wrote:
| Not sure how you got that 17CHF, that's the price I get for a
| single trip with the half fare card (IC3). Full price would
| be 34CHF each way.
| jeffbee wrote:
| Sorry, you're right, I double-counted the half card.
| DeathArrow wrote:
| Switzerland has also a lot a lot of mountainous landscape and
| use a lot of tunnels and viaducts. Wages for construction
| workers are larger, construction work is more expensive.
|
| In some other countries it might be cheaper to build a transit
| systems using the same ideas.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| China has a lot of viaducts and tunnels for its HSR and
| expressway systems. In fact, it is more of a worse case than
| Switzerland since it's major cities aren't really connected
| by valleys.
| dgb23 wrote:
| High quality public infrastructure is a force multiplier IMO.
| It's hard to get and a long term investment. But the payoff is
| huge.
|
| Another good example would be South Korea. The state invested
| massively in digital/communications/internet infrastructure
| fairly early on. The results speak for themselves.
|
| Surely large infrastructure projects hinge on execution as
| well. You need solid processes and engineering competence. But
| it's generally something that is not solved though competition,
| but through collaboration and long-term thinking. In the
| "planting the trees for the next generation" kind of way.
| jkarni wrote:
| I'm currently reading this in the Bern train station, since my
| train to Basel was cancelled altogether.
|
| (Though yes, there's another one soon.)
| config_yml wrote:
| Man it costs a lot of money to maintain this, but Switzerland
| will continue to invest heavily into rail service, backed by the
| public: https://www.bav.admin.ch/bav/en/home/modes-of-
| transport/rail...
|
| One project I find pretty cool is the 4 track expansion via
| tunnel under and through an existing village:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi2rmEl8ULA
| runeks wrote:
| > Man it costs a lot of money to maintain this, but Switzerland
| will continue to invest heavily into rail service, backed by
| the public: https://www.bav.admin.ch/bav/en/home/modes-of-
| transport/rail...
|
| Isn't it paid for through ticket fees? Or is it subsidized by
| the state?
| mellavora wrote:
| > Or is it subsidized by the state?
|
| "subsidized", yes, but like any other investment the idea is
| that it will create positive economic value across the whole
| country and across a long time horizon, in a way that the
| tickets cannot recapture (for example, every person on the
| train is one less person on the road -- less cars is a
| benefit for the other drivers and reduces road
| wear/maintenance cost and reduces accidents/health-care
| costs).
|
| Thus perfect for a government project. Create vast value and
| the recapture mechanism is taxes.
|
| Luxembourg went to totally free public transportation. Bus,
| train, light rail. Total game-changer. More countries should
| do this.
| erichocean wrote:
| > _Luxembourg went to totally free public transportation.
| Bus, train, light rail. Total game-changer. More countries
| should do this._
|
| It's a "country" with 630K relatively wealthy, educated,
| trustworthy people. You can do a lot of things if your
| "country" meets that criteria.
|
| Few do.
| mrep wrote:
| You're looking for the Farebox recovery ratio [0].
|
| Japan and honk kong: Mostly yes.
|
| Europe: Mostly no but at least a good portion of it is for
| most.
|
| US: Not even close.
|
| [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio
| ISL wrote:
| Except Amtrak, which on that page is listed at 95%.
|
| Why are the US regional transit ratios so low? They're
| taking in real money, yet the costs are 4-5x the revenue.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| Theres a couple things wrong with regional transit in the
| US
|
| * it's rarely the fastest way to get to your destination,
| wherever it may be, so doesn't attract passengers
|
| * to build on the above points, the suburbanization of
| jobs in recent decades has reduced the ability of transit
| to compete, since transit mostly performs best heading
| quickly into congested city centers; suburbs are also
| diffuse, which make them hard to serve with frequent
| transit
|
| * labor productivity in US transit is really low. as a
| general example, in the US most commuter rail systems
| still check individual tickets on every journey, which is
| very labor intensive. EU systems tend to use proof-of-
| payment, which basically means most of the time you're on
| the honor system, but if a roving inspector catches you
| without a ticket you'll get charged a punitive fine worth
| several months of fares. transit unions are probably one
| of the few US unions with teeth left, and they fight
| anything perceived as cutting jobs.
|
| * US systems charge flat rates as a kind of social policy
| for the poor, which is good for them but bad for the
| balance sheet
|
| one thing to note is that pretty much all the North
| American agencies on the list, unlike most of the Asian
| and European ones also on the list, integrate bus
| operations, and bus operations pretty much never make
| money due to the lower passengers per driver and high
| fuel costs.
| treis wrote:
| That number is wrong. For 2021 Amtrak received 4.7
| billion in Federal money while their revenue was 2.1
| billion.
| dom9301k wrote:
| Usually the ticket fee are very, very small part of it. The
| heavy weight is public founding, taxes.
|
| I gladly play my tax here in Swiz because the system works.
| There are "big" delays ever here, yesterday something like 30
| minutes, but is like 1 time out of 100.
| throw0101a wrote:
| > _Isn't it paid for through ticket fees? Or is it subsidized
| by the state?_
|
| You can subsidize public transit/rail or you can subsidize
| highways. Which has a better 'ROI' when high oil prices come
| along? :)
| misja111 wrote:
| The Swiss rail company, SBB, is owned by the state. In 2021
| it made a loss of 325 million CHF, which is about 3.3% of its
| total turnover. So it's paid mostly through ticket fees and
| for a small part by the state.
| Leherenn wrote:
| I think that's incorrect, public funding is included in
| revenues. In 2021, out of ~10B revenues, 4B came from state
| aid. In terms of operating income, traffic revenues are
| roughly equal to public sector funding.
|
| See https://reporting.sbb.ch/en/finance?highlighted=8e22267
| 9f50e...
| izacus wrote:
| Quoting coronavirus pandemic numbers in a country where
| people are ordered to stay at home is a pretty dishonest
| argument.
|
| SBB made profit it 2019 for example.
| kuon wrote:
| In the area where I live (near Aigle on the east of Leman) the
| main problem is that there are only two tracks (one each
| direction) going to Geneva. Which makes it hard to have frequent
| stops. I live at 100m from the tracks, but I have to do 8km to
| take the train at Aigle.
|
| I lived in Tokyo for some time, and you have stops everywhere,
| mainly possible because there is so many tracks running.
|
| But in Switzerland, many places suffers from this.
| jokteur wrote:
| Yes, as it is very densely build around the tracks, it is now
| almost impossible to build more tracks without paying a lot.
| cinntaile wrote:
| Not having too many stops makes travelling a lot faster (good
| for when alternatives exist) and less delay prone, but it sure
| sucks when the nearest stop is quite far away.
| flohofwoe wrote:
| Theoretically, such an integrated timetable likely also exists in
| Germany. And I definitely don't want to complain, all connections
| from my hillbilly home village to the capital run at a one hour
| clock cycle or better, and I only need to switch trains twice on
| the whole journey. If it works, it works great, but if any train
| is late (and usually that's the ICE between Hamburg and Munich),
| then all bets are off :)
| Narretz wrote:
| Something like an integrated timetable for Germany is actually
| in planning: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutschlandtakt,
| but it looks like it focuses on high speed routes.
| BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 wrote:
| An interesting contrast to Alberta where you pretty much have to
| have a car to get to the mountains for hiking, climbing, skiing,
| biking, scenic dining...
|
| Public transit in the mountain national parks is limited to daily
| hostel shuttles and a bus between Banff and Jasper. However I
| have been able to finagle a ride on a tour bus to Takkakaw Falls
| and come back a week later.
|
| As for provincial parks and trailheads, forget it.
|
| Back in the '80s, a two lane highway was sufficient. The lack of
| transit has necessitated an extremely expensive twinning of the
| Trans Canada highway from Alberta to British Columbia.
|
| The Swiss fares and timetables enable people to get their
| recreation without having a car and paying gas, registration,
| maintenance, parking...
|
| That's one good way to limit global warming - brought to you in
| large part by the car centered North American suburb.
| _zoltan_ wrote:
| I had to be in Genf for an appointment at our temporary embassy
| (normally living in Zurich) and before the day I bought a "day
| GA" - a pass that allowed me to travel almost all of Switzerland
| for a fixed price. The train takes around 3 hours or so one way,
| so once there, I just hopped on a bus (covered by the GA), did
| what I went there to do, then did the trip back as well.
|
| I had an electric socket under my seat so I could work on the
| train.
|
| Cost? 69 CHF for the day. (Or 59? ish.). Cheap enough.
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