[HN Gopher] Probiotics can support the effect of antidepressants
___________________________________________________________________
Probiotics can support the effect of antidepressants
Author : NickRandom
Score : 174 points
Date : 2022-06-17 12:24 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.unibas.ch)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.unibas.ch)
| SaintGhurka wrote:
| Sample size of 1 here, but just hear me out.
|
| Probiotics are a cheap and low-risk. If you have any general
| inflammation type issues that don't seem to have a cause, it
| might be worthwhile to just try probiotics.
|
| My Dr. told me to try them for a digestive issue - and they sort
| of helped that.
|
| But a handful of other things unexpectedly improved. Acid reflux
| went from really bad to barely noticeable, and my skin really
| cleared up. I had red, flaky skin on my face for 20 years and
| suddenly it's gone within 48 hours of starting probiotics.
|
| Yeah... post hoc ergo propter hoc, but it's a cheap and harmless
| shot in the dark.
|
| Worst case scenario, it doesn't work and you're out $10.
|
| Edited to say "low risk" instead of "risk free".
| AmateurLeader wrote:
| pazimzadeh wrote:
| Probiotics will compete with whatever is in your gut. If you
| have a messed up microbiota, then that would be a good thing.
| If you have a healthy microbiota, then taking probiotics could
| backfire. Taking probiotics can slow down the recovery of your
| original microbiota, after taking antibiotics:
|
| https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(18)31108-5
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| > But a handful of other things unexpectedly improved. Acid
| reflux went from really bad to barely noticeable
|
| What are you even buying if you don't mind me asking? I don't
| get acid reflux often, but I definitely want to prevent it
| happening so often, because it continues for days when I do get
| it. There's all sorts of things that say they have / are
| probiotics, including a few different sodas out there.
| SaintGhurka wrote:
| Culturelle. Just their basic "Digestive Daily Probiotic".
| It's a single strain Lactobacillus rhamnosus. My Dr.
| suggested either that or Align.
|
| The first thing I tried worked so I haven't tried anything
| else. A friend of mine had the same problem and he buys
| generic bulk acidophilus from amazon and he says it works for
| him.
|
| I didn't expect it to work, but I didn't want to wonder if it
| failed because I cheaped out, so I went for the expensive
| stuff.
| philliphaydon wrote:
| Definitely going to try this too. I go though periods of
| acid reflux and it wakes me up. I sleep with 2 pillows so
| raise my head and shoulders to prevent it waking me which
| helps most of the time. But will give the probiotics a try.
| Thanks.
| SaintGhurka wrote:
| Good luck. I hope it works for you.
| stainforth wrote:
| Curious - are you a back sleeper? (Or what type of
| sleeper are you?)
| philliphaydon wrote:
| Sometimes sleep on my left side. Sometimes on my back.
| Darkphibre wrote:
| What's the brand/dosage you use? There's so many different
| brands out there.
| SaintGhurka wrote:
| Culturelle Digestive Daily Probiotic. It's dosage says 40 mg
| and "10 Billion CFUs". It also has Inulin in it, whatever
| that is.
|
| I take one every other day.
| saxonww wrote:
| Inulin is classified as a dietary fiber. It's an
| indigestible polysaccharide that ends up being eaten by
| microbes in your gut.
|
| A lot of packaged foods that are high in fiber that you
| wouldn't expect to be, have inulin. I remember buying some
| plain 'greek' yogurt for a while that was advertising fiber
| per serving, and it had added inulin. Anything containing
| chicory or jerusalem artichoke is probably high in inulin.
|
| If you're not used to eating it - and this is true of a lot
| of dietary fibers and prebiotics - be prepared for gas.
| Like potentially uncomfortably large amounts of it. That
| side effect is supposed to lessen as your gut adjusts to
| the change, though.
| klohto wrote:
| What was the bacteria you introduced to your system? I'm on the
| market for some.
| SaintGhurka wrote:
| Lactobacillus rhamnosus. It's the strain in Culturelle.
| Expensive compared to others but still cheap.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > Probiotics are a cheap and risk-free.
|
| Not entirely risk-free, but the side effects of a negative
| reaction don't last too long at least.
|
| I felt notably worse for about a week after trying one of the
| mainstream probiotic brands with strange brain fog I couldn't
| shake. This effect was repeatable and I could start the malaise
| again by resuming the probiotic. The same effect didn't happen
| with another antibiotic with different strains.
|
| Probiotics could be worth trying, but you have to go in with
| the understanding that the possible outcomes are more than just
| "no effect" and "improved health". Worsening is also a real
| possibility.
| toshk wrote:
| It's hard to believe something can be as powerful as to
| relieve depression, while at the same time not having any
| downside or risk.
| jessermeyer wrote:
| The brain fog could have been a consequence of the ensuing
| biological war you started by introducing a new strain of
| bacteria to your digestion for which your metabolism had yet
| to adapt to.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| More likely that it's the case that more bacteria in your
| stomach isn't necessarily a better thing.
|
| These negative effects have been noted in the literature,
| too, so I'm not alone:
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6006167/
| jessermeyer wrote:
| I did not imply probiotics were a panacea. Difficult to
| imagine such a biological war playing out in every host
| beneficially. Although the study you mention is concerned
| with an unusual fermentation process, which may be caused
| by a different biological mechanism.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| The link was about probiotics causing or contributing to
| intestinal bacterial overgrowth. It's a real risk.
| jessermeyer wrote:
| I read the study. The risk is real tho uncommon, but the
| study was unable to determine if bacterial overgrowth was
| the underlying condition responsible for the symptoms,
| because they appear the same as those from D-lactic
| acidosis, caused by the same bacteria as found in common
| probiotics.
|
| So whether the issue is too much bacteria or poor
| compatibly with a host remains unanswered by your linked
| study.
| challenger-derp wrote:
| I believe it's not risk-free. For example, I read that
| immuno-suppressed people should avoid consuming kombucha,
| kefir, etc.
| SaintGhurka wrote:
| Thank you. I should have said "low risk" instead of "risk
| free".
| pcarolan wrote:
| Can you recommend at good product at that price point?
| SaintGhurka wrote:
| The only one I've ever taken is "Culturelle Digestive Daily
| Probiotic". It comes to $0.50 per pill. There are much
| cheaper generics but I haven't had the guts (no pun intended)
| to switch away from what's working to try them.
| lr4444lr wrote:
| Brand? Dosage?
| SaintGhurka wrote:
| Please see my answer to this sibling comment.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31780214
| dan_quixote wrote:
| Mind sharing the brand/product?
| SaintGhurka wrote:
| Not at all, although I'm beginning to feel like a bit of a
| shill for the company.
|
| I use "Culturelle Digestive Daily Probiotic".
|
| My Dr. suggested either that or "Align". His comment on that
| was that they are delivery systems that are designed to let
| the bacteria survive the trip through the extreme environment
| of the stomach.
| dan_quixote wrote:
| Thanks. This is the problem with unregulated supplements -
| internet strangers sharing recommendations is just about
| the best heuristic we've got!
| chasebank wrote:
| I have a sample size of 1 as well. Probiotics didn't help me
| but I've dealt with digestive issues for the last 4 years after
| a bout of food poisoning. I used to think gut flora /
| microbiome was quackery but I recently did an oral FMT (fecal
| microbiata transplant) the results were unreal.
|
| For reference, I'm a 37 y/o fit male and donor was 18 y/o
| female. After 2nd week I got the deepest sleep since I was a
| child (slept for 11 hours straight - went to bed, teleported to
| the morning) and woke up with this hard to describe feeling. I
| literally felt like I was 16 again. This sort of optimism /
| happiness I hadn't felt in years. And I'm a generally happy
| dude! All my symptoms went away and the euphoric feeling
| persisted. Whatever the bacteria did was truly remarkable. The
| bad news is a few weeks after the FMT was finished, things went
| back to the way they were before. I'd continue to do them
| forever but it was very expensive, $1400 for the month. Fwiw, I
| tried it again with another donor with zero results so I could
| have been a fluke.
|
| I do think I'll try it again with the original donor. It was a
| spectacular month. I really think the microbiome is a major key
| to our health and wellness. Remember the blood boy from Silicon
| Valley? I bet we see 'fecal boys' for rich people in the near
| future.
|
| If you're interested, I'll link the source and study I based my
| dosage off below. The guy who runs the fmt operation very
| passionate about the concept.
|
| [0] https://www.humanmicrobes.org/
|
| [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7866462/
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| _I have no medical training. This is speculation only.
| Consult a doctor._
|
| Assuming the translated gut flora to be the cause of your
| improvement then I'd look at two things. What bacteria the
| beneficial transplant contains, you can have it assayed (I
| believe it's called a bacterial culture test) and then find a
| cheaper source for that bacteria. Two, what the diet of the
| donor is, so you can try to replicate the beneficial
| environment in which those particular bacteria flourish.
|
| AIUI, your own bacterial flora are in competition with the
| transplant. So, I wonder if a doctor would prescribe
| antibiotics (or something else) to wipe out your own flora,
| then the new flora (possibly with a diet change) would have a
| greater chance of taking hold?
|
| I wonder also if the causal flow is different here, that
| there's maybe an underlying condition that is causing the gut
| flora to not prosper (like making an excessively acid
| environment).
| l-albertovich wrote:
| According to books such as "!Es la microbiota, idiota!"
| (ISBN 8413440688 but I don't know if it's available in
| english) it's not that simple, I think they said that not
| all the strains are identified and even then there are
| strains that aren't easy to grow in vitro (I'm NOT a
| scientist, don't quote me on this, I just listened to the
| audiobook).
|
| What they make a point on is diet, she insists on the
| importance of having a diet that gives desirable bacteria
| strains an environment where they can thrive to achieve a
| balance.
|
| IIRC she also mentions how it's not as simple as having
| "good" and "bad" strains and how balance is key.
|
| It's a really interesting and funny book to listen to if
| you have a few hours for it.
|
| So in the case of OP I think you're right about finding out
| more about the donors diet and replicating it as well as
| adjusting anything necessary for the newly arrived colonies
| to last through time.
|
| I don't know sh!t about it nor do I intend to sound like I
| do so please correct me if I'm wrong.
| SaintGhurka wrote:
| Are you sure you don't have sleep apnea? I did... or rather I
| do, but if I sleep with a CPAP machine, I wake up with a
| feeling like you describe.
|
| I hate that machine, but it works.
| chasebank wrote:
| I'm pretty sure I don't. I suppose I could try one out or
| get a test.
| SaintGhurka wrote:
| You said you're fit, but it's still possible to have
| sleep apnea.
|
| Incidentally I had it and never knew about it until I had
| the sleep study. I never woke up gasping for breath or
| anything like that.
| SaintGhurka wrote:
| Thank you for that. I've wondered if those transplants stick.
|
| Hopefully this becomes an area of major research because all
| the anecdotes sound so promising.
| amelius wrote:
| This is what doctors call "the honeymoon phase", and it can
| happen with various drugs and supplements.
|
| If it stops working, and you can't reproduce it the second or
| third time, then it's probably better to give up and look for
| another solution.
| agumonkey wrote:
| This would have been the strangest placebo I've read so
| far.
| joedevon wrote:
| I've been fascinated by FMT, but it also grosses me out. I'm
| super curious, was it tough mentally to take the pill if it
| was a pill?
| loufe wrote:
| This was a fascinating read, thank you for sharing. Were
| there really no lasting effects? I'm curious why the
| introduced bacteria didn't flourish and permanently change
| your microbiome. Can anybody weigh in?
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| It might be that they have to hit a certain critical mass
| to become self-sustaining. Or they require a particular
| environment to thrive, which exists in the donor but not in
| the donee. It's such a new field, at least for prescriptive
| medicine, that it'll probably be a while before we get a
| good base of understand of what lives in our gut, what it
| does, and how to keep it healthy.
| Darkphibre wrote:
| My money is indeed on the environment. You'd want to know
| what that donor was eating, and try to replicate it.
| z3t4 wrote:
| We are what we eat. Could try changing to the same diet as
| the donor...
| wtetzner wrote:
| I wonder if it would be worth finding out about the donor's
| diet, and trying to replicate it after the transplant in an
| effort to maintain the gut flora.
| phkahler wrote:
| The problem I have with "take probiotics" is that there are
| hundreds or even thousands of species of bacteria that could be
| classified as "probiotics". Which ones of these have positive
| influence on mood or physical health? How can a person know
| what to expect from a bottle of stuff at Whole Foods or where-
| ever?
| AuryGlenz wrote:
| I wonder if prebiotics are a better choice, with fecal
| transplants done for when you have a real issue.
|
| For what it's worth, and doctors obviously don't suggest
| this, you can easily do a fecal transplant at home. By
| "easily" I mean that the process is simple, not that it isn't
| super gross.
| Darkphibre wrote:
| No lie, I've done exactly this before.
|
| Something was coming up that'd wipe out my intestinal
| flora, and I'd been feeling _extremely_ healthy lately. So
| I preserved a chilled sample of the 'good stuff.'
|
| Usually I'd have all sorts of problems as the gut bacteria
| sorted itself out, but this time it was... smooth sailing.
|
| Sure, it's... WEIRD in the extreme to actually perform. But
| I can't argue with the results.
| ada1981 wrote:
| Having dirty sex with happy people is how our species has
| done this since the Dawn of man.
| phkahler wrote:
| I didn't even want to joke about that on HN, but it did
| cross my mind. Find a happy healthy person and (somehow)
| ask them for some fecal matter and do a transplant. Or
| _just_ start licking butts... ugh
| selimthegrim wrote:
| I think they found out when studying maternal vaginal
| swabbing for seeding microbiota Caesarean newborns that
| the bacteria were actually either airborne from the
| maternal fecal route or somehow getting into the baby
| from there
| zrail wrote:
| Pooping during delivery is a thing. So that's entirely
| believable.
| Hellbanevil wrote:
| I don't think licking butts would do it. The gastric
| acids in the stomach might kill most of the good stuff?
|
| Now a turkey baster with a partner whom has no STD's
| might be doable.
|
| I once had a perpetually happy virginal, before me,
| girlfriend whom would have made a perfect donor.
| midislack wrote:
| Sadly 40% of US adults already have an incurable STD so
| this isn't really good advice.
| Hellbanevil wrote:
| Is it 40%?
|
| I guess it's herpes for most of that number?
| halfnormalform wrote:
| Moralizing is probably a sadder tragedy, though.
| midislack wrote:
| Not saying you're immoral for having an STD. Just
| spreading one.
| pygy_ wrote:
| In the absence of more precise evidence, I'd recommend to aim
| for diversity, you're more likely to pick up what you're
| missing that way. You can also try diy lactofermented
| veggies.
| pinko wrote:
| This may not be the answer you're looking for, but a good
| start is just to go with the ones that humans have been
| eating for millennia: whatever's in yogurt, sauerkraut,
| natto, fermented pickles, etc.
| edejong wrote:
| Probiotics are not necessarily low risk when used during or
| after antibiotics usage.
|
| Quoting directly from [1] "Effect of Probiotic Use on
| Antibiotic Administration Among Care Home Residents: A
| Randomized Clinical Trial"
|
| "...participants who were randomized to the probiotic group
| were administered significantly more antibiotics for lower
| respiratory tract infections, had small but statistically
| significant lower self-reported generic well-being/capability
| scores at 3 months, and a prespecified sensitivity analysis
| found a significant increase in cumulative systemic antibiotic
| days.
|
| These findings should be interpreted with caution, given
| multiple testing. However, this study does not rule out harm
| from probiotics. Certain probiotics may delay the return of the
| host gut microbiome to its normal state after antibiotic
| treatment,[2] and a retrospective single-center study found
| probiotic exposure was associated with C difficile infection in
| hospitalized patients.[3]"
|
| [1] Butler CC, Lau M, Gillespie D, et al. Effect of Probiotic
| Use on Antibiotic Administration Among Care Home Residents: A
| Randomized Clinical Trial. JAMA. 2020;324(1):47-56.
| doi:10.1001/jama.2020.8556
|
| [2] Suez J , Zmora N , Zilberman-Schapira G , et al Post-
| antibiotic gut mucosal microbiome reconstitution is impaired by
| probiotics and improved by autologous FMT. Cell.
| 2018;174(6):1406-1423.e1416. doi:10.1016/j.cell.2018.08.047
|
| [3] Carvour ML , Wilder SL , Ryan KL , et al. Predictors of
| Clostridium difficile infection and predictive impact of
| probiotic use in a diverse hospital-wide cohort. Am J Infect
| Control. 2019;47(1):2-8. doi:10.1016/j.ajic.2018.07.014
| cortic wrote:
| There is a risk here we are not talking about; Some significant
| number of people die every year trying low risk solutions to
| high risk problems, while not being qualified to judge risk.
|
| Probiotics, tinctures, vitamins and a gluten free diet
| basically killed a friends mother who spent years on these
| things while her undiagnosed stomach cancer spread everywhere.
|
| The issue as i see it, is that there is profit to be made
| stringing people along from one 'cheap and harmless shot in the
| dark' to the next.
| encryptluks2 wrote:
| I don't think people are advocating to not see a doctor and
| discuss issues, but that there are intermediary steps that
| can be tried. Sorry to hear what happened to your friend's
| mom. I've seen the opposite where doctors will over prescribe
| and rarely ever test and that ends up killing people too.
| There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying supplemental
| treatments and it is really no different than OTC remedies
| that people spend billions on each year.
| amelius wrote:
| Was that OTC probiotics? Most of them seem to need
| refrigeration, and I'm surprised they are not sold as such
| (just placed on non-refrigerated shelves in stores or sent by
| mail in a normal box without cooling).
| SaintGhurka wrote:
| Yes it's OTC. My box just says to store in a "cool dry place
| away from sunlight". It doesn't specify a temperature range.
| __alexs wrote:
| I noticed when reading the Amazon reviews of probiotics recently
| that a lot of people claim they improved their mood a lot too.
| raverbashing wrote:
| I suppose there's also an inverse correlation with, let's say,
| "bathroom frequency"
| kudzoo wrote:
| A healthy gut microbiome has a diversity of bacteria. You want to
| have a healthy gut microbiome because it has an incredible number
| of interactions with your nervous system, which can impact mood,
| energy, and brain function.
|
| Below is a quick rundown of the essential tools for feeding one's
| gut microbiome.
|
| - Prebiotics: Carbohydrates and fiber that our body can't digest
| but act as food for the bacteria in our gut.
|
| - Active culture foods: Yogurt, sauerkraut, kimchi, etc that
| contain active bacteria which support the growth of other
| bacteria.
|
| - Probiotics supplements: contain live active cultures.
|
| If you have a depleted gut microbiome due to stress, disease or
| recent usage of antibiotics, probiotics are useful to restart the
| gut microbiome but probably aren't needed for maintenance.
| Instead, you may be better off eating a diet that contains a
| healthy amount of prebiotics (fiber, complex carbs) and fermented
| foods.
| midislack wrote:
| This is a GPT post, right?
| jb1991 wrote:
| I was thinking something similar -- says a lot without saying
| much.
| midislack wrote:
| Looks like it was just lifted from some article somewhere.
| mfer wrote:
| About 90% of serotonin is made in the gut [1]. This is one of
| those things that helps us with being happy and an unhealthy gut
| produces less. So, this makes sense.
|
| [1]
| https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/22572-seroton...
| zymun wrote:
| Does this serotonin make its way to the brain?
| jasongill wrote:
| Seratonin is produced in multiple places in the body (not
| just the brain, and apparently, most of the seratonin in your
| body is not produced in the brain), but doesn't appear to
| cross the blood-brain barrier.
|
| I'm not a doctor but I think what that means is "seratonin in
| your gut probably doesn't make it's way to the brain; but,
| the rest of the body is already awash in seratonin, so
| additional production in the gut can help increase those
| levels, which may have some sort of yet-to-be-understood
| action that has an impact on depression"
| amelius wrote:
| How does serotonin in a pill reach the brain then? :)
|
| Is there some special delivery mechanism behind it?
| [deleted]
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| There is no serotonin in pills. SSRI stands for selective
| serotonin reuptake inhibitor. It is a chemical that
| modifies how certain cells reabsorb serotonin.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_serotonin_reuptak
| e_i...
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| The serotonin in your brain doesn't come from the gut.
|
| Serotonin isn't just a "happy chemical". The body uses it in
| different places for different functions.
| kache_ wrote:
| n=40, seems a bit small. But this fits into a lot of anecdotal
| accounts I've heard. Gut flora is very complex and not well
| understood.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| What is an adequate sample size depends entirely on the effect
| size.
| kache_ wrote:
| Yep. I wouldn't eat a mushroom that killed someone, sample
| size being 1
| Kakashi4 wrote:
| I've also had anecdotal experience in agreement with this.
| There have been many studies on this but most of them have a
| similar small sample size. Wonder why it hasn't been conducted
| with a larger sample size yet, or maybe it has but didn't find
| anything so it's not being posted on HN -\\_(tsu)_/-
| [deleted]
| woliveirajr wrote:
| > Probiotics maintained microbial diversity and increased the
| abundance of the genus Lactobacillus, indicating the effectivity
| of the probiotics to increase specific taxa. The increase of the
| Lactobacillus was associated with decreased depressive symptoms
| in the probiotics group. [0]
|
| So, yogurt everybody ? [1] [2]
|
| [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-022-01977-z [1]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogurt#Health_research [2]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probiotic
| 0daystock wrote:
| As long as it's not cow's milk yogurt, sure.
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20389060/
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23415826/
|
| Also, the citations in the wikipedia article are hilariously
| biased.
|
| > Presented at the satellite symposium "First Global Summit on
| the Health Effects of Yogurt." The conference was organized by
| the ASN, the Nutrition Society, Danone Institute International,
| and the Dairy Research Institute
|
| Another paper was straight up one paid consultant writing an
| industry-funded article. Here's who edited and reviewed it:
|
| > Editorial assistance was provided by Chill Pill Media LLP,
| which was contracted and funded by Danone Institute
| International.
|
| It's hilarious how desperate the dairy industry is to cook
| science.
| Ozzie_osman wrote:
| I read this take somewhere that we are basically a vessel for our
| microbiome / gut Flora. Our moods, what food we crave, how social
| we are might all be impacted by them, in which case they do have
| some sort of control over not just how we feel, but how we
| behave. For instance if you eat a lot of sugar, you will crave
| more sugar, and the argument would be that it's the bacteria that
| have developed in your gut that are causing you to crave that
| sugar because that is what they consume (vs the more human-
| focused evolutionary argument of "sugar was rare and so humans
| have evolved to crave as much of it as they can get").
|
| Reality is probably a mix of both (ie we are a complex system
| with wants/needs influenced by both our own body and the Flora
| that live within it).
| 0daystock wrote:
| The literature couldn't be more clear in support of what you
| wrote. It's actually a fairly well researched topic in
| nutritional science.
|
| https://nutritionfacts.org/video/microbiome-we-are-what-they...
| 0daystock wrote:
| Almost as if the gut microbiome (and by extension, the food we
| eat) has massive influence over our mood, health and autonomy.
| Crazy how that's a novel concept to people still.
| ianstormtaylor wrote:
| Anyone have recommendations for which probiotics are the best
| ones to buy?
|
| I always get confused while looking at all the various options,
| and this seems like a good place to find someone who's done a lot
| of research.
| willseth wrote:
| Visibiome has OTC and rx-only probiotics products, the latter
| of which is used to treat severe IBS and ulcerative colitis.
| Their OTC products are also very high potency and regularly
| recommended by doctors as well.
|
| Also, nicer grocery stores typically have a refrigerated
| probiotics section, and those are typically good brands as well
| (Garden of Life is one). Generally, shelf stable probiotics are
| less potent and varied in cultures than ones requiring
| refrigeration.
| thrwy_918 wrote:
| >Visibiome has OTC and rx-only probiotics products
|
| It's worth pointing out that the actual biotic payload is
| exactly the same between the two products, only the dosage is
| different.
|
| In other words, taking two packets of the regular unflavored
| powder should deliver the same payload as one packet of the
| rx-only "extra-strength" powder.
|
| I suspect the only reason the higher strength product exists,
| and is rx-only, is so that it can be covered by health
| insurance for some people.
| willseth wrote:
| Sure, I was pointing this out only because it's a signal
| that their product has gone through a more rigorous
| approval process to be accepted by insurance
| wtk wrote:
| I think the market is flooded with supplements, while you can
| help your gut bacteria with natural products like kefir (kind
| of buttermilk), kombucha, kimchi like products. I happen to
| love all those mentioned.
| enviclash wrote:
| Same here, loving all things fermented! I am surprised people
| actually spend on probiotics, while kefir cultures (et alli)
| are so easy to buy.
| 0daystock wrote:
| Those are all very bad recommendations. Buttermilk is loaded
| with cholesterol and saturated fat, kombucha with sugar, and
| fermented vegetables like kimchi have shown to increase
| prostate adenocarcinoma. You want to regulate your gut flora
| with a variety of whole plant-based foods, not quick fixes
| like pills and a jar of stinky cabbage.
| enviclash wrote:
| You are telling me milk kefir is the cause of health
| issues? I would suggest limiting it to a few spoons a few
| times per week, then.
| glogla wrote:
| How would you make that practical? How long can you keep
| a bottle of kefir open before it goes bad?
| enviclash wrote:
| I have half glass of milk with kefir cultures, only, and
| I keep in the fridge. I use it also ad sauce, because the
| cultures get big and it gets concentrated and strong.
| monadgonad wrote:
| Neither dietary cholesterol nor saturated fat nor sugar are
| bad in moderation, and that's completely orthogonal to the
| point of them providing probiotics.
| 0daystock wrote:
| Motor oil could provide probiotics if cultured - wouldn't
| make it healthy to consume, except in "moderation".
| logankeenan wrote:
| Disclaimer, I'm a software engineer for Ritual.
|
| Antidotally, I recently started taking a probiotic and have had
| great improvements in digestive health. I also have a chronic
| digestive disease.
|
| Ritual recently launched a probiotic which includes the two
| most studied strains, LGG and BB-12. Our formulation and
| technology is very much driven by science. Maybe it's right for
| you.
|
| https://ritual.com/products/synbiotic-plus-for-gut-health
| okdood64 wrote:
| Off-topic: Please don't take this the wrong way. What sorts
| of engineering does an engineer at Ritual do? From an outside
| perspective it's just a website selling healthcare products.
| Is there some sort of big data driven approach to developing
| the products?
| logankeenan wrote:
| None taken and thanks for asking! I'll speak generally
| about this, at some point eCommerce sites will out grow
| what Shopify/etc offers. They need better integration with
| their partners and better control of their data. We rely on
| data to help measure the outcomes of decisions we make.
| This is not just engineering, but the whole company. The
| engineering side operates very much like any other software
| startup where we iterate on features that will help us grow
| and support our existing customers.
|
| A fun example is that we did not have the concept of a cart
| at the very beginning. You don't need a cart when you only
| have one product, so why spend development time building
| that? My most recent work has been performance because that
| was worth spending time on now. Before that, I worked on
| allowing customers to update their subscriptions via an
| email magic link for the launch of Synbiotic+ (the
| probiotic). We then look at our data to see how effective
| our efforts were in supporting the hypothesis which
| initially kicked off the work. Hope that helps!
| vecter wrote:
| I've had bad gas most of my life. I just kind of assumed it was
| me and there was nothing I could do about it. I started on 10
| Billion CFUs of Lactobacillus Acidophilus [0] a few weeks ago
| and my gas went away in literally one day. I take 10B CFUs
| every day or every other day now (every other is probably
| sufficient), and it's still gone. I'm literally amazed. I
| started taking it because I saw a video from Dr. Eric Berg [1]
| about how to deal with a potential candida overgrowth.
|
| [0] https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-
| acidophilus/art...
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9wWC7M0QxI
| pionar wrote:
| It should be noted that Eric Berg is a known quack and
| conspiracy theorist. I'd be careful taking what he says as
| fact.
|
| He is not a medical doctor, he is a chiropractor.
| pkrotich wrote:
| It's a shame because in the bygone ages you could have been
| knighted as Touch Wood or Safety champion - flatulence games
| for those wondering. ;)
| negroni wrote:
| My wife as been on SSRIs for years. Anecdotally, a few years ago,
| she noticed when she forgets to order her probiotics she slides
| into a malaise after a few days. For both of our benefit, I now
| make sure we never run out. https://www.amazon.com/Probiotics-
| Billion-CFU-Prebiotics-Aci...
| NickRandom wrote:
| Note to mods: I 'editorialised' submission title slightly
| (Original is "Good bacteria to tackle depression") which seemed a
| bit click-baity
| josiahpeters wrote:
| I appreciate your editorial take. Thanks for saying no to
| click-bait titles!
| [deleted]
| zackmorris wrote:
| I finally beat my digestive issues and chronic fatigue (physical
| depression) which lasted 3+ years from 2019-2021. Without getting
| too far into it, here's the stuff that finally worked, weighted
| by immediacy on a scale of 10:
|
| - 10: Eating a serving of Brussels sprouts, preferably daily
|
| - 10: Taking about 3 psyllium husk capsules occasionally with
| FODMAP and spicy meals
|
| - 10: Taking a digestive enzyme occasionally with FODMAP and
| spicy meals (Digest Basic, no affiliation)
|
| - 10: Taking a "stress" B complex with 100% daily, instead of
| 1000% weekly (Nature Made, no affiliation)
|
| - 10: Avoiding all beans, unaged dairy, whole-grain wheat and
| most tree nuts for a few months
|
| - 8: Drinking at least twice as much water as I feel that I need,
| from one big container over the course of the day
|
| - 8: Eating plain giant salads with dressing, preferably spinach-
| greens mix, several times per week
|
| - 8: Drinking Kefir daily
|
| - 6: Trying several different brands of probiotics occasionally
| in no particular order
|
| - 6: Eating 1-4 eggs per day, preferably on post-workout days
|
| - 6: Taking an iodine supplement initially, a few times per week
| until the bottle was gone
|
| I think what kicked this all off was dabbling with keto 5 years
| ago which might have cost me most of my tolerance to milk, and
| prolonged dehydration from intense workouts and large servings of
| protein without proactive hydration. When I lost my gut health, I
| may have picked up bad bacteria or parasites from food poisoning
| or raw seafood. I was also under debilitating stress during the
| last few years at my previous job, so began every morning on an
| empty tank spiritually. I never listened to my body until my
| health failed and it made the decision to stop for me.
|
| The biggest change has been that being tired feels ordinary and
| rare, with no emotional component. Instead of the crushing
| "universe is against me" sense of being attacked, alone and
| hopeless knowing there was no end of it in sight, which I endured
| for many years before my physical health's deterioration finally
| caught up.
| jollybean wrote:
| How do you know any of that worked?
|
| You can't do all that stuff to yourself - and - go through
| COVID (and other things) which has caused widespread
| depression, and assume any of that had an affect one wary or
| another without a fairly big randomized trial isolating all of
| those elements.
|
| Even just the notion of 'regime' will change people's psyches
| via placebo.
|
| I mean, I would certainly 'feel' healthy if I did such a list
| of 'ostensibly healthy things'.
|
| That said, I wouldn't doubt some of it did, and that we are
| just barely beginning to understand gut health.
| dontbenebby wrote:
| I can't give instructions that specific but despite my
| sometimes spastic post history, having a healthier diet (yogurt
| in the morning for "breakfast" + 2 small meals, (as in an
| espresso and a croissant) then a big meal in the evening + no
| liquid calories (booze counts) helped me drop 50lb.
|
| Another key seemed to be avoiding artificial sugar.
|
| Following these heuristics (not rules - strict diets encourage
| you to chase losses if you slip up) seemed to help more than
| any strict diet, though it helps with _depression_ , not
| _anxiety_ , which is mostly situational.
|
| (This is a news site. The news is not good right now, even
| here, away from war and famine in the "tech world".)
| mrharrison wrote:
| I had similar issues. I went and saw a functional medicine
| doctor, had a stool test and he diagnosed me with candida
| overgrowth. Which may be what you had. Here is the diet
| protocol for beating back candida, which is similar to the diet
| you put yourself on. https://www.thecandidadiet.com/
| alexfromapex wrote:
| I think the main things here that helped me too are probiotics
| and B complex (the choline) because they both support healthy
| bile production
| jstx1 wrote:
| So difficult to pick out which part of this had what effect
| though.
| smt88 wrote:
| Or none of it had any effect, and something psychological or
| undiagnosed was resolved.
|
| It's a completely meaningless list for us and (possibly) for
| OP.
| DantesKite wrote:
| I can give some context for what may have happened because I
| went through something similar.
|
| My two cents is the biggest factors were the keto and the
| stress. A low carb, high fat diet does not traditionally
| feature intact plant cell walls, or what we otherwise know as
| "fiber". There are literally thousands of different of
| variations of "fiber" of which we have catalogued only a few,
| but these structures feed the microbiota in your gut. And they
| really do depend on fiber in a profound way.
|
| Without this fiber, they tend to starve and adjust to feed on
| the epithelial lining of your gut. It also gives an opportunity
| for the pathogens in your gut to "takeover", especially when
| paired with the stress since most of the "beneficial" microbes
| will tend to die off.
|
| When you read stories of people who got an autoimmune problem,
| there's almost always a period of severe stress prior to it. My
| working hypothesis is this impairs the immune system which is
| what keeps the pathogenic bacteria in check through several
| mechanisms (pathogen-associated-molecular-pattern detection or
| PAMPs for instance).
|
| Through much, much trial and error and a lot of scientific
| article research, I've found the most consistent way to restore
| microbiota ratios is with Vitamin D, followed by a clinically
| tested probiotic like Visbiome, followed by Kefir. The Vitamin
| D alone at moderate to high doses will get you very far,
| although it doesn't necessarily restore diversity (since
| Vitamin D in of itself does not contain any microbes) but it
| helps shift the balance of microbes through a variety of
| biochemical functions.
|
| Vitamin D also helps with gum disease in my experience and in a
| way no other supplement or product has so far. Highly recommend
| and you don't even have to take a high dosage to see it for
| yourself. You just have to be consistent.
|
| One last thing I'll say is that for whatever reason taking the
| supplement seems to work better than exposing yourself to
| sunlight, which is unusual, but there may be something about
| the biochemical pathway Vitamin D takes when consumed as a
| supplement as opposed through the cholesterol-synthesis that
| happens with UVB.
| jollybean wrote:
| "Through much, much trial and error and a lot of scientific
| article research, I've found the most consistent way to ..."
| etc..
|
| Unless one has done proper, randomized, medical trials, I
| don't see how anyone could use such unambiguous language.
|
| These n=1 experiences lacking in objectivity and also likely
| proper measures might help us discover new ground for things
| that might work (i.e. the basis for a trail), but without any
| testing it's not something any reasonable person should be
| walking around saying 'works', unless you mean to indicate
| you're referring to the literature.
| barrysteve wrote:
| _- 6: Taking an iodine supplement initially, a few times per
| week until the bottle was gone_
|
| Iodine related to hypothyroidism?
| harigov wrote:
| I have always had a significant mood boost from taking probiotics
| - either from food or as supplements. Some forms of probiotics
| make me overly happy to the point that it is detrimental to my
| life. Recently I started taking these probiotics - seed.com - and
| find them reasonably balanced. You will see improved mood and
| sleep for a few days but then not much - not sure why it doesn't
| persist. I am still continuing with these because they seem to be
| helping with other digestive issues. I also notice way more mood
| improvement when eating Sauerkraut so try to eat a couple of
| tablespoons of it everyday. I have experimented enough with
| microbiome related stuff that I am fully convinced they play a
| major role in ones health (including mood and energy). That said,
| there is way more to it than simply the species of bacteria.
| Where those bacteria are located in the gut (small or large
| intestine or colon), what other species are there, your genetics,
| your diet, lifestyle, your psyche, etc., all play a part in their
| functioning. I wish there was a more "big-data" approach to
| figuring out things than researching one species at a time.
| [deleted]
| InfiniteRand wrote:
| One thing with depression is that every ache and discomfort gets
| amplified and seems endless and indicative of the terrible nature
| of existence.
|
| So taking care of yourself in numerous ways is helpful. Not sure
| if that's all that's going on with the probiotic link but it's a
| factor.
|
| Unfortunately, depression saps your will to care for yourself so
| eating better, exercising, sleeping better are all easier said
| than done
| sealthedeal wrote:
| Kombucha is the way
| nope96 wrote:
| This study scared me away from trying Probiotics:
|
| Probiotics linked to brain fog, severe abdominal bloating
|
| https://www.healio.com/news/gastroenterology/20180808/probio...
|
| "What we now know is that probiotic bacteria have the unique
| capacity to break down sugar and produce D-lactic acid," he said
| in the press release. "So, if you inadvertently colonize your
| small bowel with probiotic bacteria, then you have set the stage
| for potentially developing lactic acidosis and brain fogginess."
| AmateurLeader wrote:
| getpost wrote:
| I'm doing a trial of Sugar Shift[0][1], inspired by William
| Davis[2]. There may be a small improvement in my mood, but not
| enough to say with certainty. I'm not doing any tests to monitor
| for the other possible benefits of the supplement. Two weeks into
| the trial, I have a mouth sore, which is rare for me (less than
| one occurrence per year). This may be coincidental, but I
| discontinued the supplement for the time being.
|
| I don't have a blood glucose problem particularly, but I am
| hoping to reduce inflammation. The manufacturer offers several
| probiotic supplements, and Sugar Shift seems to be the most
| comprehensive.
|
| [0] https://biotiquest.com/pages/sugar-shift [1]
| https://biotiquest.com/blogs/blog/sugar-shift-challenge-the-...
| [2] https://drdavisinfinitehealth.com/
| cess11 wrote:
| Leonid Schneider has some interesting background on Lang and
| Schmidt.
|
| https://forbetterscience.com/2022/06/17/schneider-shorts-17-...
| [deleted]
| jokoon wrote:
| The problem is that you have to take them often to colonize your
| gut, so it becomes a bit expensive, and it won't work on
| everyone, depending on their gut (since scientists know too
| little about the gut).
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| I've heard that most of a probiotic dies in the stomach. That
| what you need is probiotics: foods that make the gut more
| friendly to the right types of bacteria, which basically
| amounts to 'a range of vegetables'.
|
| I haven't studied this topic however.
| goda90 wrote:
| My hypothesis is that probiotics also need to be paired with
| the right diet. Bacteria needs to be fed, and needs to compete
| with the existing gut flora. If conditions aren't right, then
| they may never get a foothold.
| [deleted]
| jokoon wrote:
| Yeah and honestly I don't think there is a "right diet",
| because that might be highly dependent on the person, his/her
| food history, medical past, antibiotics, genetics, physical
| activity, the "initial gut bacteria" at birth, breast fed or
| not, etc.
|
| Of course one can expect the usual "less sugar and fat, more
| macro nutrient", but unless there's proof and proper cause-
| effect relationships, it's going to be complex to draw
| conclusions. I'm not really sure that sugar causes a bad
| balance in the gut bacteria.
|
| Not to mention all the chemicals in food and the environment
| that makes it almost impossible to track what could work and
| what would not.
| stephen_g wrote:
| Yeah, it requires types of dietary fibre classed as
| 'prebiotic' [1].
|
| 1. https://www.monash.edu/medicine/ccs/gastroenterology/prebi
| ot...
| awinter-py wrote:
| actual results are in figure 1 of the linked article
|
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-022-01977-z/figures/1
|
| they were using the HAM-D instrument to measure impact. The
| probiotics group appears to have initial +2 HAM-D (19 vs 17), and
| have -1 at follow-up (7 vs 8).
|
| This is for relatively small N (21 completed probiotics course,
| 26 placebo), and the fact that the difference is _smaller_ at the
| end vs at the beginning says 'within the noise' to me.
|
| results section also notes probiotic group had twice the drop-out
| rate of the placebo group (30% vs 13%)
| mrfusion wrote:
| How to find the best probiotics?
| UI_at_80x24 wrote:
| I don't know much this topic, but if you are looking for
| supplements make sure they are refrigerated. Yogurt is probably
| the easiest/best way to ingest them though instead of specific
| pills.
| MezzoDelCammin wrote:
| The original study [1] uses Vivomixx in about double dose.
|
| According to them it's because it is easily accessible and has
| multiple strains of bacteria in it (they were not trying to go
| for one strain in particular).
|
| 1 : chapter "Study intervention" of
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-022-01977-z
| [deleted]
| Cenk wrote:
| Here's a direct link to a PDF of the study:
| https://oa.mg/pdf/s41398-022-01977-z.pdf
| justsocrateasin wrote:
| Sample size of 1 here, but hopefully worth the read.
|
| I got food poisoning while abroad shortly after college, and took
| some shitty OTC antibiotics. I was low-grade sick for ~1 month,
| and when I came home I started developing IBS which got
| progressively worse over the next few years. FODMAP saved me, but
| at the detriment of needing to eliminate a lot of foods that I
| loved eating.
|
| Recently I started eating 2tbps of chia seeds with some lemon
| juice and water daily. Chia seeds are incredibly fibrous. Over
| the next month, my stomach seemed to get permanently better - I
| can now eat larger quantities of some of those "problem" foods
| without debilitating side effects.
|
| The bacteria in your gut affect a whole lot of things. And there
| are competing cultures, all of which like to eat different
| things. My hunch is that I coaxed the fiber-loving ones back to
| health, and they in turn did me the favor of repressing the
| cultures that liked fermenting beans and cruciferous vegetables.
| There's a lot we don't know about our gut microbiome, but my
| guess is that eating high-fiber, high-diversity diets is a much
| better solution than taking a pill.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Garbage in, garbage out. Everybody wants a pill or supplement
| rather than adopting healthy eating habits.
|
| My "chronic" acid reflux disappeared by simply doing what I
| already knew I should be doing: Eat fruits and vegetables. Fish >
| chicken > beef > pork. Don't buy snacks or sugary drinks. You
| aren't hungry, you're bored.
|
| I wish doctors would treat the whole person rather than
| prescribing a pill. I wish my doctor told me to do these things
| before prescribing me omeprazole when I had an issue.
| cpncrunch wrote:
| Hmmm not very impressive. See figure 1. Placebo and treatment
| group have identical depression scores post intervention, and the
| small difference at followup is the same amount as the difference
| between groups.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| Full paper here:
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-022-01977-z
|
| Skip down to Figure 1 to see the chart. Note that the response to
| placebo is normally extremely strong in depression studies, so
| it's normal to see both groups improve drastically like this.
|
| The only thing that jumps out to me is that the probiotic group
| started with HAM-D depression inventory scores that were notably
| higher. When measuring absolute reduction of HAM-D scores, this
| actually leaves the more depressed patients with more room to
| improve and can therefore inflate the perceived effectiveness of
| their response, placebo or otherwise. And indeed, both groups had
| basically identical scores at the end of the trial. They only
| really diverged at follow-up where the probiotic group had
| improved slightly more than placebo.
|
| I've seen enough probiotic stories that failed to pan out later
| that I'd take this one with a huge grain of salt. Trying
| probiotics might be worthwhile if you can afford them, but the
| probiotic-depression link never seems to actually play out from
| online anecdotes of people taking them. Note that we've been
| seeing small studies about this exact topic for a long, long
| time.
| [deleted]
| enviclash wrote:
| Very good insights. Still I am surprised by one point: why do
| you use the verb "afford" for probiotics? Kefir from milk is
| home-made and 1.5 buck per liter at most.
| cpncrunch wrote:
| HN users seem to have a habit of posting crap science wrapped
| up in impressive sounding news stories, and it's kind of
| annoying. This is meant to be a group of intelligent people who
| should have the ability to click on the link to the article and
| look at the actual results.
| guerrilla wrote:
| The community has grown a lot. A ton of junk is posted (a
| ton, browse new for a while) but the real deal here is that
| sometimes enough people upvote the junk to frontpage it. I
| don't know why but I think sometimes some people just want
| certain things to be true.
| encryptluks2 wrote:
| I'm speaking from anecdotal evidence here but I have seen a
| lot of research that indicate the digestive tract is
| basically the primary storage of serotonin. And whenever I
| get chronically depressed I also get chronically
| constipated. I don't necessarily think probiotics are a
| magical cure but I think anything that aids with digestion
| and moving things through the digestive tract can help.
| guerrilla wrote:
| > the digestive tract is basically the primary storage of
| serotonin.
|
| What does this even mean? Monoamines aren't fat or
| glycogen stored in the body. The digestive tract has
| serotonin receptors, like the brain, but they differ in
| purpose entirely. Monamines are just messenger chemicals.
| Their context determines the actual message. I get it...
| it makes sense, humans are basically worms and worms are
| basically digestive tracts, that's our main thing, but
| taking this fact and making predictive science out of it
| is not trivial at all and anecdotal evidence means
| absolutely nothing so please never ever ever ever mention
| it in public forums.
| [deleted]
| cpncrunch wrote:
| Serotonin does not cross the blood brain barrier. Quite
| often neurotransmitters are used in different parts of
| the body and have different purposes.
|
| Gut motility is driven by the autonomic nervous system.
| The sympathetic nervous system controls colon motility,
| and the parasympathetic controls digestion and stomach
| emptying. Depending on the type of depression you have,
| it can alter the HPA axis up or down. Let's say you have
| the "don't want to get out of bed and do anything" type.
| In that case your HPA axis is likely underactive. That
| results in reduced sympathetic nervous system activation
| (as it operates in parallel with the HPA axis). That then
| results in reduced colon motility and constipation.
|
| Sometimes often I get constipation at weekends for this
| reason. I'm not depressed, but if I don't do much at the
| weekend after a busy week then (I assume) my HPA axis
| reduces, and that causes constipation.
| [deleted]
| wbsss4412 wrote:
| HN tends to have a lot of insight into tech topics, and a
| high level of hubris when it comes to non tech topics.
| amelius wrote:
| Also:
|
| https://www.cuh.nhs.uk/news/friendly-gut-bacteria-speeds-lon...
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| I had to go on a probiotic diet due to medication once.
|
| My favorite dish (that I still eat!) was simply mixing powdered
| baking chocolate with Greek yogurt.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| When I think of probiotics I think of this song
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnJM_jC7j_4
|
| because probiotics are the "ones that mother gives you [that]
| don't do anything at all"
|
| (Right up there with Vitamin D supplements. Everything good, like
| low blood pressure and your team winning the Superbowl seems to
| be associated with high vitamin D in the population and
| everything bad is associated with low vitamin D... But when you
| supplement Vitamin D seems to lower your blood pressure as much
| as it makes your team win the Superbowl.)
| Alex3917 wrote:
| > But when you supplement Vitamin D seems to lower your blood
| pressure as much as it makes your team win the Superbowl
|
| Because you need UVA to convert the vitamin D to nitric oxide,
| and if you're getting enough UVA to do that then you're also
| more likely to already be getting enough UVB to create
| sufficient vitamin D in the first place.[1] Not super
| complicated.
|
| Taking vitamin D supplements is probably still better than not
| taking them if you're deficient, but if you understand the
| mechanism of action then it should be obvious as to why the
| science is always equivocal.
|
| [1] Or, more precisely, vitamin D regulates nitric oxide
| synthesis.
| wutbrodo wrote:
| You're commenting on a post about an RCT that does show
| probiotics having an effect...? And AIUI, there's plenty of
| other evidence of a) their efficacy for changing the gut biome
| and b) the gut biome's causal effect on a variety of health
| issues.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| An rct with n=40 is better than the junk non-controlled
| studies that inexplicably get funded and accepted by journals
| but probably meaningless for something involving something as
| subjective as mental health.
| PKop wrote:
| You need to get it from sunlight. Modern man has way too little
| sun exposure, and the meme of everyone being afraid of sun and
| using sunscreen obsessively exacerbates the problem.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-06-17 23:01 UTC)