[HN Gopher] SpaceX staff condemn Musk's behavior in open letter
___________________________________________________________________
SpaceX staff condemn Musk's behavior in open letter
Author : lprd
Score : 42 points
Date : 2022-06-16 19:23 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theregister.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theregister.com)
| an9n wrote:
| > a glance at Musk's twitter feed quickly brings up questionably
| offensive memes and conspiracy-laden statements.
|
| oh no, not the hurty wrongthink tweets!
| wolverine876 wrote:
| A better link is the Verge story, which includes more reporting
| and the entire letter. The Register story might be based on The
| Verge:
|
| https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/16/23170228/spacex-elon-musk...
| anorphirith wrote:
| I used to have high regard for theregister.com
| memish wrote:
| > While it's unknown how many of SpaceX's 12,000 employees have
| signed the letter
|
| If prior letters like this are any indication, it's on the order
| of 12 out of 12,000.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| > The Verge's sources also shared screenshots of a supportive
| Microsoft Teams discussion between 100-plus employees. The
| Teams channel where the letter was posted reportedly has more
| than 2,600 members.
| kareemsabri wrote:
| I don't think that indicates much. People join channels at
| companies to spectate.
| memish wrote:
| What a desperate attempt to include some big numbers.
|
| "It was shared and discussed on HackerNews, a forum with
| reportedly more than 1,000,000 members"
| goldenchrome wrote:
| I've been following Musk on Twitter for a few months and I
| haven't seen anything worth condemning. His tweets often seem
| like thoughts off the top of his head, ie not written by a PR
| employee. It feels like the issue people have is with his tone.
| Perhaps people aren't used to seeing public figures who doesn't
| meticulously manage their image.
|
| Almost everyone is beholden to an employer, a committee, or an
| oversight board of some kind so we all have to censor our public
| thoughts to a huge extent. I think some people are upset that
| Elon doesn't have to, and they're upset that he's "above the
| law".
|
| Woke culture truly is the new church.
| schmeckleberg wrote:
| All I have to say about this is thank goodness for Gwynne
| Shotwell and JB Straubel. They adult so that Ol' Musky doesn't
| have to.
|
| Like, thank you Musk for backing smart people like Gwynne and JB
| and giving the powder that they need to fire their flintlocks of
| excellence.
|
| Dislike, no thank you Musk for your distracting and pointless
| pre-occupation with meme currencies and "I am 14 and I just read
| Heinlein and this is deep"-tier libertarian twitterings.
| assttoasstmgr wrote:
| It's his company and they chose to work there. It's like
| repeatedly patronizing a restaurant then loudly complaining how
| much the chef sucks. You're free to eat elsewhere or build your
| own spaceship company.
| an9n wrote:
| 100% this. If it's really sooo bad, why wouldn't you just leave
| instead of staying in order to suffer and create mischief? Musk
| built the company. It's his. It's revolutionary. Go elsewhere
| if you don't like it. One has to ask questions about the true
| motives behind it - Musk has powerful enemies including Biden
| etc, lest we forget.
| stevage wrote:
| No. It is always worth trying to improve something rather
| than just quitting.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| They are free to complain too, and in this case Musk can fire
| them and try to find other talented people to replace them - if
| that is in the best interests of the shareholders and other
| stakeholders. There is nothing special about Musk's side of the
| argument or Musk's leverage; the employees have leverage too.
|
| But really the goal is to make SpaceX as productive as
| possible, to do something productive for the world, not to
| serve Musk's whims. If there is a trade-off between the whims
| and the productivity, it's clear which should be sacrificed.
| masswerk wrote:
| So a cockpit crew should shut up and follow their captain
| obediently into destructive failure, since they chose to fly
| under him, while being free to choose any other carrier to work
| with?
| assttoasstmgr wrote:
| Yes. The person in the left seat of an aircraft is
| unquestionably in charge and responsible for the safety of
| the crew and passengers. An aircraft is not a commune; there
| is a chain of command. If you don't like it you can leave.
|
| You are allowing your emotions and dislike of Musk to cloud
| your judgement.
| eftychis wrote:
| Ehm yeah, thank God planes do not fly like this. The two
| pilots and the rest of the crew communicate and coordinate
| or we would have a lot of accidents.
|
| There is a reason planes still have two pilots -- and it is
| not that the need two or even one to function most of the
| time.
|
| PIC does not order anyone around, but is the actor/writer.
| The other pilot verifies and overrides/calls issues. And
| certain operations, for instance during take off, are done
| together.
|
| Maybe companies work that way, but if you fly a plane with
| that approach, I am joining as the second, crew or
| passenger.
| agubelu wrote:
| I'm not sure you can leave an aircraft mid-flight
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Corporations are neither aircraft nor ships at sea. They're
| subject to boards and other mechanisms to check the power
| of the chief executive. There are unofficial ways to
| express dissatisfaction or no-confidence towards that
| leader, without it being considered outright mutiny.
| assttoasstmgr wrote:
| Agreed. However nothing annoys me more than people who
| join a company only to immediately start complaining
| about how much they dislike the culture. It just so
| happens the culture at SpaceX revolves around one guy.
| You can... leave... if you don't like it. Everyone knows
| this yet we're all supposed to act like SpaceX engineers
| were trafficked here in shipping containers and working
| to pay off a slave debt. No. The money is likely too good
| so they'd rather complain instead. The entitlement
| expressed by the individuals involved has buried the
| needle.
| abemiller wrote:
| I think it's fair to want money/a job, and pursue getting
| hired for one, but then also be interested in improving
| the culture or working conditions of the job once you
| start working there.
|
| You say they are entitled - high skill, difficult to
| replace workers are actually entitled to make demands of
| their employer which are proportional to the value they
| offer, in particular when they act collectively.
| dangus wrote:
| I think you're missing the wider point.
|
| The point is that employer-employee relationships are
| inherently imbalanced. A corporation has far more freedom
| to make choices like that than their employees.
|
| No, you can't just "get another job" if all the companies
| are abusing employees in the same way.
|
| The fact that corporations are set as mini-dictatorships
| never made sense to me. Everyone's at the mercy of the
| whims of the CEO.
|
| Karl Marx said that workers should own the means of
| production, and this is exactly the kind of thing he was
| talking about. In capitalism, shareholders have more power
| over the company than those doing the day-to-day work who
| know the business, and those shareholders could easily tell
| Musk to tone it down if they wanted to - and Musk would
| listen.
|
| The employees could never sway him. "Take it or leave it,"
| which really just means "go work for the other asshole."
|
| I think it wouldn't be such a bad thing if corporations had
| mandatory employee democracy on certain workplace issues. I
| think the ownership class has too much power over the
| individual. Just because you own assets shouldn't mean you
| get to play games with people's livelihoods.
| masswerk wrote:
| Disclaimer: The reply was made in good faith that the
| reader might be familiar with the term 'crew resource
| management' and its historical contribution to flight
| safety. - So, sorry for the inappropriate reply.
| assttoasstmgr wrote:
| It appears I misunderstood what you were after. Yes there
| have been examples of this in the past; I assumed you
| were suggesting mutiny as a general rule. That said my
| comment still stands:
|
| _The U.S. CFR Title 14, Part 1, Section 1.1 defines
| "pilot in command" as:
|
| ...the person who:
|
| Has final authority and responsibility for the operation
| and safety of the flight_
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_in_command
| masswerk wrote:
| It is also about the shared responsibility of the crew.
| E.g., the board has installed a set of rules regarding
| corporate culture, and this for a reason, namely to
| provide a climate for achieving best results, avoiding
| distractions and material damages. It's a shared
| responsibility of everybody in this environment to have
| an eye on whether the company lives up to these standards
| or not, in order for this to work. (Mind that the open
| letter directly addresses these codes.)
|
| Edit: Mind that there is an obvious conflict between
| positions like, "you do as I say, because my money", and
| the complex relations that constitute a corporate
| business.
| phatfish wrote:
| History is full of despots and dictators that would have
| loved to have you along for the ride.
| Nicksil wrote:
| >Yes. The person in the left seat of an aircraft is
| unquestionably in charge and responsible for the safety of
| the crew and passengers. An aircraft is not a commune;
| there is a chain of command. If you don't like it you can
| leave.
|
| That's not how it works with Crew Resource Management.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management
| [deleted]
| wolverine876 wrote:
| At best, Musk has responsibilities to the company, its
| shareholders, employees, and other stakeholders, and Musk is
| choosing public behavior that risks, rather than serves those
| responsibilities. The behavior is clearly not chosen to help
| those parties, and that's Musk's job.
|
| The subtext is the unspoken 'culture war' - everyone sees it, so
| it's a bit bizarre to me that it's unspoken - between, on one
| hand, a subculture in society (including on the Internet and in
| business) that celebrates power (including its abuse and
| corruption) and disruption; and on the other hand, one that
| advocates responsibility, basic human dignity, productivity, and
| innovation.
|
| IMHO, the former subculture, of power and disruption, is
| indefensible. Maybe that's why the contest is unspoken, and
| instead we debate Musk's behavior as a proxy.
| kareemsabri wrote:
| How is the culture war unspoken? Unless you're talking about
| some _other_ culture war than the one that 's been raging for
| like a decade.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| I'm not talking about the reactionary - classical liberalism
| culture war, if that's what you mean. I'm talking about the
| one described in my comment.
| kareemsabri wrote:
| Okay, I don't think everyone sees that one, but maybe it's
| only me who doesn't see it and everyone else does.
| throwaway-blaze wrote:
| For reference, the term "Culture War" has been in use since
| the 1920's in the US.
| kareemsabri wrote:
| Sure. I'm not suggesting the term originated a decade ago,
| but when people say "the culture war" colloquially today
| they are typically referring to the ongoing debate over
| topics like racism, sexism, wealth inequality, and "cancel
| culture" that has been ongoing on twitter, in the media,
| and in companies etc.
| adb2020 wrote:
| Hopefully they singed it so that he knows who to fire
| JaimeThompson wrote:
| Why would a free speech absolutist fire people for using their
| free speech?
| [deleted]
| mwint wrote:
| Saying free-speech principles are important in the public
| square, which he asserts Twitter et al are part of, is very
| different from tolerating all forms of speech _from your own
| employees in the context of their job_.
| JaimeThompson wrote:
| He claimed to be a free speech absolutist, not a supporter
| of free speech principles. I chose to read that as a highly
| intelligent person using the words he wants to use to
| describe his position accurately, I also expect him to live
| by that position given he has the means to do so.
| fallingfrog wrote:
| I guess if they singed it out of key, he might have to
| an9n wrote:
| I'm worried they might have got their fingers burnt!
| sn0w_crash wrote:
| They need to include how many people signed this thing. If it's 1
| would they still write this article?
| mwint wrote:
| They'd probably write the article if it was 0 (written by
| someone outside the company).
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-06-16 23:02 UTC)