[HN Gopher] Engage with an unemployment algorithm
___________________________________________________________________
Engage with an unemployment algorithm
Author : bryanrasmussen
Score : 96 points
Date : 2022-06-13 09:41 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (ledighedsalgoritmen.dk)
(TXT) w3m dump (ledighedsalgoritmen.dk)
| lancebeet wrote:
| Unemployment sure doesn't seem to be a big issue for front-end
| developers in Denmark.
| Izmaki wrote:
| Anything that allows you to pocket a starting salary of 36k /
| month fresh from a B.Sc. does not have a problem with
| unemployment, lol...
| tokai wrote:
| The job marked for B.Sc.'s is actually quite small in
| Denmark. Everybody takes a master.
| Izmaki wrote:
| In IT it's different. 9/10 software development, DevOps,
| System/Network/Security Engineering, and so forth jobs I've
| seen have required just a bachelors degree. Other fields
| are likely different.
| McBeige wrote:
| Would you mind sharing where I can read about this? It's
| going to be important for my upcoming career choices.
| mrweasel wrote:
| I don't have any statistics on this, but when I studied
| computer science 20 years ago, nobody stopped at the
| B.Sc. Depending on the university, it's basically only
| another year, writing one or two papers, and then a year,
| either doing the same or the equivalent of a minor, where
| you're just doing the first year of the B.Sc. in some
| other field.
|
| One issue you might encounter is that Danish IT companies
| are obsessed with hiring people with a masters, even if
| the job doesn't even require a B.Sc. Most of the jobs in
| the industry could be fulfilled by people from trade-
| schools or other shorter educations. Companies just seem
| to have this idea that they need engineers or people with
| a masters in computer science, even if their product is
| just some CRUD application.
| Izmaki wrote:
| Things have changed. You can get far with just a
| bachelors degree, if you are open to working other places
| than Big Four and corporations with tens of thousands of
| employees. I have anyway, and I'm only 10 years behind
| you. If you move into InfoSec the requirements for
| degrees are even smaller, at the end of the day.
|
| Also how much is a masters degree even worth after a
| handful of years of relevant experience anyway? Not
| much...
| tokai wrote:
| Newsblog post from Aalborg Uni with a good overview of
| the issue: https://www.careers.aau.dk/nyheder/vis/snart-
| bachelor---hvad...
|
| The ministry of research and education's page about their
| project to develop the job market for bscs.:
| https://ufm.dk/uddannelse/videregaende-
| uddannelse/fleksible-...
|
| It's not like its impossible to get a job with a
| bachelor. Almost all companies and institutions will just
| automaticity look for master graduates, and you might
| have to educate them about the benefits of getting the
| same capabilities for a lower pay.
| googlryas wrote:
| Is that take home per month or pre-tax and all that?
| Izmaki wrote:
| 36,000 DKK. before taxes give or take 2000 is the average
| starting salary for people fresh from university, in
| Software Development, System/network engineering, DevOps,
| Security and those kinds of IT areas. The nerdy stuff.
| PeterStuer wrote:
| Even when you are over 56?
| londons_explore wrote:
| Soooo.... What is the _use_ of the output of this algorithm?
|
| If it's for the government to predict how many 'help finding
| employment' leaflets the government should print next month, that
| seems fine.
|
| If it's to decide who is eligible for state handouts, it is
| unsuitable.
| [deleted]
| GistNoesis wrote:
| Is this the real life or is it just fantasy ?
|
| How far is this demo from the real algorithm ? In the demo it
| seems they use a very simple decision tree just based on very few
| criterion (In order : Self-perceived ability to get a job,
| Origin, Age, Recent employment rate).
|
| Does this simplistic (racist and ageist) model have been derived
| from real data and is in use, or is it just some kind of
| propaganda (from CopenHagen University?) and the real model they
| use is much more complex.
|
| Random forests can be made much bigger and match data quite well
| provided they are big enough, but the bigger they get the harder
| they are to explain.
|
| Caught in a landslide, no escape from reality.
| PeterStuer wrote:
| It seems to be the result of analyzing 152.000 unemployment
| case histories. While the outcome is rather coarse grained I
| have a feeling it wouldn't be too far of reality for a quick
| risk assessment.
|
| You can say e.g. the resulting model surfaces 'ageist' rules,
| but isn't that just a reflection of reality? Jobs chances for
| the average >56,5yo are indeed pretty slim, and not just in
| Denmark. Should the model lie about that?
| jmeister wrote:
| Is it racist or ageist if it is accurate?
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| The general problem with all this "algorithmic" (lazy-arse
| avoidant) jiggery-pokery is that it entrenches a bunch of
| extant values. An "expert system" - what this is - is nothing
| but the sum of historical expertise minus the human wisdom lost
| encoding it.
|
| Thunderbolt and lightning very, very frightening.
| Aeolun wrote:
| This website is quite terrible on mobile. I don't know how many
| times we'll have to tell people to stop hijacking the scroll
| position, but I suspect until the end of time...
|
| Also, none of my questions mattered, by virtue of being a western
| immigrant and expecting to look for a job from 3-6 months I'm
| somehow at risk of long term unemployment.
| hampereddustbin wrote:
| It would be really great if any javascript binding could be
| turned off in about:config or it's equivalent in other
| browsers. It's not really a solution, but would bandaid a lot
| of bad design which I can't see any legitimate use for (like
| scroll-hijacking).
|
| I guess you can already overwrite any existing function with
| your custom non-function with userscripts, but that seems quite
| hacky and non-portable, since most mobile browsers don't really
| support extensions (Firefox does, but only a small subsection)
| marcinzm wrote:
| >Also, none of my questions mattered, by virtue of being a
| western immigrant and expecting to look for a job from 3-6
| months I'm somehow at risk of long term unemployment.
|
| I wonder if the underlying cause is "having savings and not
| needing a job to have a comfortable living." May also tie into
| how easily or not you can get government support. The more
| desperate you are the more likely you'll settle for any job as
| quickly as possible.
| martin_a wrote:
| Yeah, I got the same result, too. Really wonder if this
| algorithm is good for anything. I tried to play "Give me a
| break, then I'll look for a job and I am certain I'll find
| something" and it just tells me I've got a high risk for long
| term unemployment... Ok, whatever.
| dry_soup wrote:
| It's pretty terrible on a desktop browser as well
| dusted wrote:
| Is it any comfort if I tell you it's also quite terrible on
| desktop? :P
| hahamrfunnyguy wrote:
| It's quite terrible on desktop too.
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| Based on the visualization the algorithm seems to be:
|
| If you input that you expect to be unemployed for a short/long
| time, it returns that assumption. Only if you say you don't
| know...
|
| Immigrant/descendant: High risk of long term unemployment, right
| away. (Edit: Apparently _except_ non-western immigrants, based on
| the source code!)
|
| Age is the next check that can classify you as high risk, I
| didn't look for the threshold (Edit: 56, according to the
| source). As long as you're below that, the deciding factor is...
|
| How long were you employed out of the past 36 months? 12 months
| is apparently _good_. (Edit: <2 is the threshold).
|
| It seems like most of the questions don't seem to be considered
| (if the visualization is to be believed) and it's a very simple
| "if x return foo" style algorithm, not some fancy scorer/ML.
|
| Look for function setValues() in
| https://ledighedsalgoritmen.dk/p5vis.js
| bjarneh wrote:
| > Look for function setValues() in
| https://ledighedsalgoritmen.dk/p5vis.js
|
| It seems you've found the algorithm right there. Not only is
| this algorithm the good old mega-nested-if-test-of-hard-coded-
| answers for a _few_ of the questions asked. It basically checks
| if you think you are at risk, then puts you "atRisk" if you
| are older than 56/about to retire/an immigrant/pregnant.
|
| Sadly; that is probably enough to report relatively correct
| values.
| hampereddustbin wrote:
| There is another way to look at it; a student was able to
| visualize what they wanted with minimal investment in
| learning secondary tools to their actual field.
|
| Similar issue is often misattributed in other places like
| game engines aswell. For example Unity is often labeled as
| lower quality because of the correlation with bad code
| quality in many of the games made with it, while forgetting
| that this is precisely because it's so easy to get started
| with, more new developers choose it
| wodenokoto wrote:
| > "if x return foo" style algorithm, not some fancy scorer/ML
|
| It's a decision tree. Decision trees falls under ML. The
| thresholds are learned from data.
|
| I would imagine they had to use a decision tree in order to
| tell users and case workers _why_ they are at risk.
|
| The algorithm has been heavily criticized for putting basically
| all non-western immigrants into the "high risc"-group, but if
| the job market historically hasn't been willing to hire high
| performing, non-western immigrants, isn't it the whole point of
| building an algorithm from data? To shed light on this?
| kaoD wrote:
| Feels like a decision tree is not the kind of algorithm that
| can solve this problem due to its multidimensional nature.
| It's very vulnerable to Simpson's paradox.
|
| It may be right most of the time if we lump everyone in the
| same bag, but that is not helpful at all.
|
| Also, having the self-evaluated unemployment risk the first
| deciding factor seems to defeat the purpose.
| googlryas wrote:
| A fixed decision tree isn't machine learning. If the tree can
| be updated or generated by code, then sure, but a human just
| writing a decision tree has nothing to do with machine
| learning.
| hash07e wrote:
| chki wrote:
| Please don't do this here.
| hnbad wrote:
| HN seems to be fine with race realists and antisemites
| (just look at the person's recent comment history, they're
| not the first one I've seen either) as long as they don't
| go on excessively unhinged rants and resort to slurs. HN is
| very much trying to be a "marketplace of ideas" with all
| the faults and warts that come with being a marketplace
| (e.g. false or misleading advertising).
| chki wrote:
| I think the comment in and of itself is not very
| substantiated but that's not why I commented. The comment
| I was replying to is a complete non-sequitur. The top-
| level comment only mentioned "non western immigrants" in
| passing by saying that they were _less_ likely to be
| unemployed. To follow this with ranting about "non-
| western immigrants" is simply not acting in good faith
| and not adhering to the site guidelines, especially
|
| >Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and
| generic tangents.
| hash07e wrote:
| Please do refute. Personal attacks are not valid.
|
| It is very strange that the same people that claim HN is
| a techno/logical place when confronted with logic and
| realism suffer from cognitive dissonance.
|
| Please check [1] page 59.
|
| [1] - https://www.diw.de/documents/publikationen/73/diw_0
| 1.c.61234...
| krageon wrote:
| It's not a personal attack to say that you have a
| definite horse that you like to speak on ("race", as
| nebulous and weird as that is). Above you have reframed
| more or less the same thing as a culture issue, which has
| been _widely_ discussed and is currently popularly
| mitigated with education. We can see this works in
| practice.
|
| What more do you want? Justifications for why people move
| out of their cultural frame to a different one? Perhaps
| they value more rights for women (the middle east is out
| then). Perhaps they enjoy a peaceful environment (again,
| the middle east is out). There are so, so many reasons
| someone might move away from their reference frame. Some
| don't apply to the middle east. Some don't apply to Asia.
| But they definitely apply to someone, somewhere.
|
| I simply cannot believe you have not thought of this, but
| to construct this narrative you must ignore these
| realities for why people flee their own environment in
| favour of a new (much more uncertain) one.
| hash07e wrote:
| _" I simply cannot believe you have not thought of this,
| but to construct this narrative you must ignore these
| realities for why people flee their own environment in
| favour of a new (much more uncertain) one."_
|
| I did not refer race.
|
| I am not ignoring but I am alerting that them may be
| BETTER served with cultures that conform with their
| ideologies and aptitudes.
|
| Why create a cultural shock? Why make the person struggle
| to be accepted?
|
| How many generations for me to be considered "japanese"?
| Or I would force japanese to me consider one of them?
| krageon wrote:
| The racism thing is definitely a soapbox issue for this
| person, which is a little distasteful to be sure. I do
| not see any antisemitism.
| hash07e wrote:
| notahacker wrote:
| > Immigrant/descendant: High risk of long term unemployment,
| right away. (Edit: Apparently except non-western immigrants,
| based on the source code!)
|
| The latter part is probably on the basis that non-Western
| immigrants mostly needed skilled worker visas, whereas
| descendents and 'Westerners' (which apparently maps to "EU
| members" in this case) don't. Though as with most of the rest
| of it I'd struggle to see this as a conclusion from advanced
| modelling and not just a stereotype kept relevant largely by
| not asking the descendent or 'Westerner' what type of work
| they'd been doing and how long they'd worked in Denmark
| hash07e wrote:
| If you look at [1] at page 59 you will see only 19% of men
| and 7% of women from non western countries are working in
| Germany.
|
| This is after spending a LOT of money and political power.
|
| [1] - https://www.diw.de/documents/publikationen/73/diw_01.c.
| 61234...
|
| Note: the statistics are heavily censured and the language is
| always to show "positive" like we increased xx% (from 10% to
| 15%).
| DoughnutHole wrote:
| You've completely misrepresented the statements of that
| document - it's specifically about _refugees_ , not all
| "men and woman from non western countries".
|
| Of course refugees are vastly more likely to be unemployed
| - 2/3 came from the Syrian civil war and there's no
| guarantee of entering the country with in-demand skills or
| any understanding of the language.
|
| Germany has 1.24 million refugees, but it has ~14 million
| first-generation immigrants including over a million Turks.
| People who immigrated _for work_ and had to apply for visas
| are going to have completely different employment outcomes
| than a surge of war refugees.
| hash07e wrote:
| So please provide the stats from "first-generation"
| immigrants.
|
| They are public right?
|
| Right?
| bildung wrote:
| By law their residency was on the condition of employment
| or self-employment, so close to 100% by definition.
| Nowadays they are either naturalized (so no immigrants
| anymore) or pensioned, or returned back home after their
| work life ended, or already died. Keep in mind that this
| immigration wave was 40 to 50 years ago.
|
| And yes, all of this is easily findable public data.
| hash07e wrote:
| _" By law their residency was on the condition of
| employment or self-employment, so close to 100% by
| definition"_
|
| That is a very strong "stimulus" to keep people working
| and being integrated. Do we have the same today?
|
| _" And yes, all of this is easily findable public
| data."_
|
| Please may you provide the link with first-generation
| employment status?
| [deleted]
| notahacker wrote:
| I'm not sure why you think a statistic applying to a
| different group (refugees are not all "non-Western
| immigrants", especially not in Denmark) in a different
| country in a different direction is particularly relevant.
|
| Actually, scratch that, looking at your account history I
| can see exactly why...
| bildung wrote:
| Germany is a bit special here because refugees often are
| not allowed to work at all, or, depending on their status,
| are only allowed to work under certain conditions. This was
| introduced by the conservative parties as a juridical
| answer to fears of immigrants "stealing" jobs.
| [deleted]
| hash07e wrote:
| Nope.
|
| My cousin was able to get it right away.
|
| Same happened in other countries as Sweden[1] and in
| UAE[2]
|
| The conservatives have no power in Germany the most they
| can do is:
|
| "We will SOMETIME in future make a coalition, but for now
| we will stay here barking".
|
| It is ok to confront narratives.
|
| [1] - https://archive.is/oUsbj [2] -
| http://saharareporters.com/2021/06/29/exclusive-uae-
| suspends...
| ginko wrote:
| >The conservatives have no power in Germany
|
| Did you somehow miss 16 years of conservative government
| in Germany?
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Conservative by German standards is pretty liberal by US
| standards.
| bildung wrote:
| It's literally law, and has been for decades. See here,
| directly from the federal government:
| https://www.bmas.de/DE/Arbeit/Fachkraeftesicherung-und-
| Integ...
| hash07e wrote:
| From google translator
|
| 1. after three months for asylum seekers who are not
| obliged to live in a reception facility,
|
| 2. after six months of asylum seekers with minor
| children,
|
| 3. after nine months of asylum seekers without minor
| children (even despite the obligation to live in a
| reception facility).
|
| Comparing to US A 565 Authorization to work in US is at
| 6-9 months wait.
|
| that study data was from 2016 onwards... There was enough
| time..
| bildung wrote:
| Those are
|
| * minimum times, i.e. they don't automatically have
| rights afterwards, but have to obtain a permission for
| working first ("Arbeitserlaubnis")
|
| * those minimum times prolong as long as immigrants live
| in special immigrant housing ("Aufnahmeeinrichtung"),
| i.e. as long es they don't live in normal housing. Which
| they can only get if the ministry grants them that (in my
| town there are still quite a share of syrian immigrants
| living in that kind of housing, not normal housing in
| town).
|
| * additionally, even after that, the employer has to show
| that a) no German of comparable qualification wanted the
| job, and b) no EU citizen of comparable qualification
| wanted the job.
|
| Edit:
|
| _> that study data was from 2016 onwards... There was
| enough time.. _
|
| "onwards" is only 2017. Your source only compares 2016 to
| 2017. 2016 is the year when most syrian refugees arrived
| in Germany. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fl%C3%BCchtling
| skrise_in_Deuts...
| hash07e wrote:
| even if you consider 11 months the data is still valid.
|
| Are we moving goal post?
| silvestrov wrote:
| There are (compared to SV) very few asians in Denmark. They
| also integrate well so the Danish "I don't have a job" system
| isn't focused on them.
|
| It is a long-standing taboo to split "non-Western" into
| "middle east" and "asian". Avoiding the split makes the bad
| numbers less noticeable.
| Olphs wrote:
| Is the "algorithm" that simple tree at the end? Really confusing
| hampereddustbin wrote:
| Maybe it is to bring about it's simplicity, or a sarcastic
| tounge-in-cheek jab at it. The word "algorithm" doesen't really
| distinguish it's complexity in any way. It's just a sequence of
| steps.
| yobbo wrote:
| It's most likely a trained decision tree with binary output.
| laputan_machine wrote:
| Trained in what way? I'd have thought this was just a hard-
| coded DT, it's multiple-choice questions all the way down
| yobbo wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_tree_learning
| danuker wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_tree
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| part of the reason I posted this is there has been some recent
| controversy as to whether or not the algorithms used are racist
| https://www.version2.dk/artikel/styrelse-frikendes-algoritmi...
|
| translated to English
|
| https://www-version2-dk.translate.goog/artikel/styrelse-frik...
|
| on edit: changed where to are, not sure why I wrote where instead
| of were, but there we go.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| If this algorythm was a fancy neural net, we wouldn't even be
| able to inspect it and have this discussion
| notahacker wrote:
| Certainly it's difficult to imagine someone motivated by
| accuracy rather than making political points about migrants
| (and education and desire to work) concluding that what
| industry people have worked in, the years of experience they
| have, the level of seniority they've obtained, how much of
| their previous work is in Denmark, previous salaries they've
| earned and whether they're willing to take a lower paid job etc
| are all less important than whether they're non-Western and
| what their highest level of education is...
|
| Admittedly, it's also the type of model you'd expect someone
| working back from very limited available data to come up with,
| but I struggle to believe it's a particularly accurate model
| stevesimmons wrote:
| They could well be the few factors that, in aggregate at a
| population level, give the greatest explanatory power. And
| which have then been roughly calibrated.
|
| The resulting model can be well be accurate in aggregate for
| informing policy decision tradeoffs. Just totally irrelevant
| for an individual's particular circumstances...
| notahacker wrote:
| Suspect if they're getting more explanatory power from
| which part of the world their family originated from than
| any kind of indicator of actual employment history, it's
| because they either don't have enough usable employment
| history data or they badly misspecified the employment
| history indicators. Agree that the macro model they have
| might nevertheless be relevant to certain policy decisions,
| but not individual ones.
| jmeister wrote:
| Very interesting. I'm working on visualization and
| explainability of ML algorithms.
|
| Thank you for posting this.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| I doubt it is a real ML algorithm, there is some discussion
| of the algorithm in the comments, so it seems the one
| currently in use is very downgraded from an earlier one that
| had more variables but not quite sure about that part.
| timvdalen wrote:
| Turns out I'm at high risk of long term unemployment if I were to
| move to Denmark...
| smcl wrote:
| Me too, not sure if I should be worried or if the algorithm is
| a bit wonky. I am in my mid-30s, graduated with university
| degree in a STEM field, and have been continuously employed
| since I left university but filled it out as if I had just
| quit. The summary after I entered everything showed the
| following decision tree:
|
| How quickly do you believe you will get a job: "Don't know"
| (I've enough savings to carry me a couple of years, no rush)
|
| Origin: "Western immigrant"
|
| Verdict: high risk of long-term unemployment.
|
| If the little summary is to be believed, there are no other
| important factors. Changing my "Don't know" to 3 months reduced
| me to "low risk of long-term unemployment". So if I'm not
| mistaken, the main factor for their estimate for how long you
| will be unemployed ... is _your_ estimate on how long you'll be
| unemployed?
| tokai wrote:
| A bit wonky is a very mild way of putting it. Absolutely
| garbage seems more precise.
| timvdalen wrote:
| I think we entered the exact same data!
| mrweasel wrote:
| It might be a case of the algorithm not being designed for
| your case. If you work in IT, you most likely only have to
| deal with the unemployment office is you've been hit by
| stress and is trying to recover. The unemployment office
| almost exclusively deal with people who are very reluctant to
| seek employment or have other issues that might prevent them
| from functioning in the job market (lack of education, mental
| issues, health issues, language barriers and so on). That
| does leave them with some funny interactions when someone
| outside those categories show up.
|
| A friend of my took a spent month, after getting hit masters
| degree in CS, finding the right job. That meant that he need
| to show up at the unemployment office. They where only able
| to offer him a forklift certification, which he didn't need
| or want. In the end they just left him alone for a month and
| he found the job he wanted.
|
| Overall the Danish unemployment office is remarkably bad at
| finding jobs for people or even help them get better
| qualifications. There's an entire book written about it
| (based on one journalists experiences). In the book the only
| person, that particular office found a job for is one they
| hired themself.
| recoveringeng wrote:
| Dane here. Disclaimer: I can't say I really know much about this,
| but here is a bit of background info:
|
| STAR is acronym for Styrelsen for Arbejdsmarked og Rekrutering
| (English: Agency for Labor Market and Recruitment).
|
| They have a note describing the system (in Danish) at [1]. I
| copy/pasted a few relevant sections to Google Translate at [2].
|
| TL;DR: Algorithm is a decision tree based on questionnaires and
| outcomes of about 152000 cases. The note states a precision of
| 70% and a recall of 32%. There is no mention of a split between
| modelling and test data.
|
| [1] https://star.dk/media/12514/2020_01_31_beskrivelse_-
| _profila...
|
| [2]
| https://translate.google.com/?sl=da&tl=en&text=Modellen%0APr...
| YetAnotherNick wrote:
| It missed the "How good are you at leetcode" question
| [deleted]
| hampereddustbin wrote:
| Instead of a specific question that most of the working sector
| is unfamiliar with, the form goes only by the field of study to
| guess where you're working
| martin_a wrote:
| Seems like this joke got over your head. :-)
| hawkeye424 wrote:
| Wonder if the algorithm is based on this
|
| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvsKIBSPfWw
|
| movie ?
| arghwhat wrote:
| Dane here.
|
| I know nothing about this particular "algorithm" or how it is
| used, other than that it was to my knowledge meant for use in job
| centers - i.e. it applies to someone who is already unemployed
| and unable to find work on their own for whatever reason (we
| should not judge, every life is different). In some cases, those
| on social benefits are also forced to job centers despite their
| condition, which might negatively affect this crude "algorithm"
| as well.
|
| In other words, it does not represent the job market or life in
| Denmark as a whole. With a 2.5% unemployment rate that should be
| more or less obvious.
|
| Of course our job market has a degree of ageism, sexism and
| racism (with the rather racist nationalist parties being popular
| in some regions), unfortunate as it may be. A male, white Dane in
| their 20s is likely going to have an easier time getting jobs
| than a female foreigner in their early 30s, where the language
| barrier, additional paperwork for work visa and non-zero risk of
| maternity leave (can easily be 50 weeks, which is costly in
| industries where the standard is full rather than partial salary)
| may make a small company uncomfortable.
|
| But while I cannot speak for industries I have never worked in,
| industries that we are familiar with here on HN are fully
| internationalized and would hire a foreigner in the blink of an
| eye, and such a person would is unlikely to ever discover a job
| centers.
|
| TL;DR: don't worry about this crappy "algorithm".
| mrweasel wrote:
| > industries that we are familiar with here on HN are fully
| internationalized and would hire a foreigner in the blink of an
| eye
|
| Small correction: Foreigners from within the EU. Many of the
| Danish software companies have contracts with e.g. banks and
| government organisations, that makes them nervous about taking
| in people from outside the EU.
|
| It depends very much on the company. It should be easy enough
| to find someone willing to hire you, but many won't.
| arghwhat wrote:
| > Many of the Danish software companies have contracts with
| e.g. banks and government organisations, that makes them
| nervous about taking in people from outside the EU.
|
| I actually meant outside EU. I do not know of any places that
| would exclude foreigners due to government contracts. I see
| no lack of foreign hires within fintech and medical, and the
| usual government contract dumpsters (KMD, Netcompany, that
| sort) also hire foreigners. I myself work in a place that
| employs a lot of engineers from India on-site for example,
| and I know many companies like it.
|
| Foreigners from within EU will have easier paperwork and
| living situation though.
| Dave3of5 wrote:
| I'm also high risk of unemployment if I ever moved to Denmark. Oh
| well ...
| filt wrote:
| I tried it from my phone. A lot of the times, trying to sexpand
| the select list moved me to the previous question.
|
| After answering all of the questions, I came to a black and empty
| section, scrolling down from there gave me an option to do the
| test again.
| kkarimi wrote:
| Same, seems like not working on iPhone safari atleast
| jonsen wrote:
| Same on iPad Safari.
| kgeist wrote:
| My phone gave up and the browser crashed :)
| larsnystrom wrote:
| One of the named authors in the footer also wrote an article
| about the STAR algorithm, which I think might provide some more
| context: https://www.zetland.dk/historie/sOMVZ7qG-m8aLzmJK-94d1e
| m00dy wrote:
| I think Banks should also expose the internals of their credit
| rating algorithms. Openness and transparency should be part of
| new world order.
| hampereddustbin wrote:
| They might be afraid their algorithms would be too easy to
| manipulate if you knew all of it's factors. Since testing the
| all of the possible factors would be cost-prohibitive for most,
| it's not exactly 1:1 with software development
| justinclift wrote:
| > They might be afraid ...
|
| It's not really relevant what they're afraid of. They should
| be made to be transparent, and it should be enforced when
| they don't meet the mark.
| hampereddustbin wrote:
| Maybe I used the wrong wording. There may be legitimate
| reasons for keeping it vague, because designing tamperproof
| public metrics for credit approval has huge risks involved,
| or they may be designed so conservatively that a lot
| actually qualifying people would now be unable to get a
| loan. I've personally been bitten by the latter despite
| making nearly six figures.
|
| Similarily I've not really seen any sites which publish how
| their anti-spam filters work or what the treshold values
| are either for similar reasons. They're possible to figure
| out, but cost a lot more.
|
| Maybe a better solution would be to somehow guarantee that
| they're consistent with their own rules, and regularly
| audited so that they're also compliant with the current
| law?
| kzrdude wrote:
| This all seems a bit backwards but I guess we're just looking at
| a visualisation of the algorithms.
|
| The "forwards" part would be to look at risk factors and how to
| mitigate or improve those points. Of course together with the
| unemployment office.
| DocTomoe wrote:
| If you talk to unemployment offices, worldwide, that's pretty
| easy: accept any job, for any salary. There's always work in
| the sulphur mines.
|
| It's better to try and improve yourself without involvement by
| biased and agenda-ed state actors. Maybe with a coach. But not
| with g-men.
| kzrdude wrote:
| The ideas behind Reagan's quote "I'm from the Government and
| I'm here to help." is the most damaging meme in american
| politics
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| Just a fun fact: ~90% people outside academia I ever knew had
| jobs unrelated to their formal education so the questions about
| education level and field always seemed pointless to me.
| BlargMcLarg wrote:
| Most questions are pointless and have almost no evidence behind
| them. Doesn't stop hiring from believing they know better.
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| Why isn't anybody trying to fix the system so it would be
| more efficient at directing people to the jobs they would be
| actually good and happy at? To me it seems this (using the
| human resources the optimal way) becomes more and more
| important nowadays. And I believe the formal education one
| has completed can only serve as a hint to what the best job
| for him is and not a direct definition of that.
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