[HN Gopher] Health minister: Unexplained high death counts in Ne...
___________________________________________________________________
Health minister: Unexplained high death counts in New Brunswick
concerning
Author : IdEntities
Score : 69 points
Date : 2022-06-11 15:29 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.cbc.ca)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.cbc.ca)
| loceng wrote:
| donkarma wrote:
| isn't this the state/province/county/whatever with the brain
| disease similar to prion going around?
| buildbot wrote:
| I am not sure, but I believe at this point they think it is
| environmental as a best guess? Everything else has been looked
| into if I remember correctly.
| not2b wrote:
| It is most likely to be Covid. Many jurisdictions have
| undercounted Covid deaths especially for older people who die
| at home.
| loceng wrote:
| IdEntities wrote:
| We're talking about 886 excess deaths in a province that
| reported 114 COVID deaths. Are unreported COVID deaths at
| home really that common and likely to be missed on the
| death certificate? In my understanding of the lethal
| progression of the disease, there's usually a telltale
| pulmonary phase which is very likely to lead the infected
| person to seek care.
| clessg wrote:
| Yup. Or at least there was significant _fear_ about it being a
| new prion-related neurological disease. Since then, the
| government has "investigated" and been pretty vocal in denying
| any environmental causation or even any connection amongst
| patients whatsoever. In fact, there is apparently no "shared
| common illness" at all:
|
| > An oversight committee reviewing the case files of all 48 of
| the potential cases found that the patients didn't have
| symptoms in common or have a shared common illness.
|
| > A separate in-depth epidemiological investigation last fall
| concluded the patients didn't have any common behaviours, foods
| or environmental exposures.
|
| > Following these reports, all the patients were excluded from
| the cluster and the Minister of Health has accepted the
| conclusion that no such neurological syndrome of unknown cause
| exists in New Brunswick.
|
| https://www2.gnb.ca/content/gnb/en/departments/health/neuro-...
|
| Our government has a long history of arrogance and paternalism
| (probably nothing too unique there), and incredibly deep ties
| to the most powerful corporation in NB (again nothing new
| there), Irving, which has a uhh, let's just say, tenuous
| relationship with the environment and pollution. So it's hard
| to say whether or not one should believe the government's
| conclusion. But there it is.
| techdragon wrote:
| Let's be honest... Irving fucking owns the province. It's
| enormous control has been held onto since the era of Golden
| Age wealth in America and they have a hilarious history of
| not giving a fuck about anything that costs them money they
| don't have to spend. Safety, Health, Pollution, you name it
| Irving has probably cut all legal corners and is lobbying to
| make new ones they can cut.
|
| It's basically Canada's "friendly" neighbourhood Lawful Evil
| Corporate Overlord.
| lostlogin wrote:
| The anti-vax thing here in this thread is very depressing.
| gpu_explorer wrote:
| As I posted a few times here in this area so far, vaccine fear
| isn't rational. It's also amazing to me that so many people who
| are against vaccines really think that people who are getting
| vaccinated have been manipulated to do so, but that their
| decision to avoid a vaccine is well-reasoned and not the result
| of manipulation by people with anti-vaccine sentiment who
| profit from spreading misinformation in society.
|
| Here is a link that I have shared now with many people,
| including people I know who were against vaccines. It nudged a
| few people to get a covid vaccine.
|
| https://historyofvaccines.org/
| daenz wrote:
| "anti-vax" is a bad faith phrase that is intended to suggest
| that a person is against a vast range of science based
| medicine.
| lostlogin wrote:
| What is a neutral term?
|
| I have been dealing with them in person in a clinical setting
| for a while now and struggle to see a non-negative side to
| the behaviour directed at myself and colleagues.
| vpribish wrote:
| I wish I could tell if it was trolls, idiots, or villains -
| it's hard to respond appropriately if unsure. regardless, this
| is very sad to see on HN.
| IdEntities wrote:
| Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that it was not a
| metaphysical impossibility that some unknown issue with the
| novel technology applied in these vaccines was missed in the
| severely abbreviated clinical trials. The control groups were
| all vaccinated the second the EUAs were granted, so we have
| no controls against which we can check our hypotheses. In the
| (I know, _completely impossible_ ) hypothetical I am putting
| forth, wouldn't the first hints of the problem be something
| like unexplained excess deaths coinciding with vaccine
| rollout?
| t0bia_s wrote:
| Why?
| SalmoShalazar wrote:
| There is a very strong anti-vax contingent on this website.
| It's unfortunate given that you'd think appreciation for
| science and healthy, well reasoned skepticism would come
| naturally for technical professionals. Guess not.
| native_samples wrote:
| Healthy well reasoned skepticism is exactly what leads to
| "anti-(COVID)-vax sentiment", because the data is not good.
|
| If you doubt that, just browse this thread with showdead
| turned on. The people pointing out that the vaccines could be
| causing this are all being killed. Probably this comment will
| be gone within minutes. Yet those comments are also providing
| evidence and citations. Meanwhile, the "pro-vax" comments are
| all like yours: merely wishing away people who disagree with
| no arguments or evidence.
|
| So which side is truly the one with the appreciation for
| science and reason?
| logicchains wrote:
| >well reasoned skepticism would come naturally for technical
| professionals.
|
| It's not well-reasoned skepticism to question the safety of a
| vaccine for which every vaccine adverse event reporting
| database reports two orders of magnitude more adverse events
| than previous vaccines?
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-10928-z would you
| call Nature an anti-vax journal?
| midislack wrote:
| secondo wrote:
| Which is?
| midislack wrote:
| helloooooooo wrote:
| A potential prion disease?
| midislack wrote:
| GenerocUsername wrote:
| In my experience, creeping unexplainable crashes are usually
| caused by recent releases which didn't receive enough testing.
| Sometimes these bugs go unnoticed by teams without sufficient
| monitoring.
|
| Have there been any major updates or releases 'across unconnected
| demographics' in the last year or two? If I was trying to solve
| this in my production systems, I would focus my investigation
| there
| FunnyBadger wrote:
| There was ZERO phase 3 testing. If you got the jab YOU WERE
| PHASE 3 testing.
|
| Kind of like free internet products.
| epgui wrote:
| This started years ago and is unrelated to covid or to covid
| vaccines.
| IdEntities wrote:
| There's a chart right in the article showing the phenomenon
| is limited to late 2021.
| loceng wrote:
| archerx wrote:
| I like how you phrased this, I feel like this is how people had
| to talk in times of heavy censorship and the fact we have to
| pass messages like this in this day and age is terrifying and
| makes the future seem bleak.
| gpu_explorer wrote:
| Vaccines have been in use for hundreds of years. Fear of
| vaccines isn't rational.
|
| https://historyofvaccines.org/
| marcinzm wrote:
| You do realize that socially imposed norms about what topics
| you talk about, in what context, between whom and how has
| probably been the norm for longer than written history?
| Ambolia wrote:
| The problem is that usually those norms were dictated by
| some monarch because he had power and took the
| responsibility for that power and its consequences.
|
| Now nobody is taking the responsibility, but we still have
| the norms.
| Cpoll wrote:
| I think the better metaphor might be patching a known day-zero
| exploit quickly instead of waiting for a full year test cycle
| (during which the full install-base is vulnerable).
| elric wrote:
| Sure, let's blame vaccines in a funny roundabout way, while
| conveniently ignoring the more probable cause that is COVID.
| The article seems to suggest that underreported COVID deaths
| are a likely explanation.
|
| You might want to consider broadening the scope of your
| investigation to include probable causes ...
| logicchains wrote:
| >Sure, let's blame vaccines in a funny roundabout way, while
| conveniently ignoring the more probable cause that is COVID.
|
| For heart issues in young males at least the more probable
| cause is actually the vaccine, as per this paper in Nature:
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-10928-z
| native_samples wrote:
| Vaccines are by far the most likely cause. Consider this
| graph of people claiming disability benefits in the USA vs
| the vaccine rollout:
|
| https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_.
| ..
|
| Note that it correlates with the start of the vaccine
| rollout, not the start of COVID. The idea expressed above
| that it's all "long COVID" doesn't make much sense given that
| fact.
|
| At this point it's very hard to see how it can be under-
| reported COVID deaths because Omicron mutated to become so
| much milder. The vaccines however generate large quantities
| of the more potent Wuhan 2019 spike.
| halfjoking wrote:
| Covid recovered aren't having same problems as vaccinated
| when it comes to heart problems.
|
| https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/328529
|
| I had long covid 14 months and never heard of myocarditis on
| forums before the shots. I had chest pain for a while but it
| was not permanent damage. Myocarditis is permanent damage.
| ljf wrote:
| My wife had (long) covid induced myocarditis long before we
| could get our vaccines here I the UK, as did many others on
| her 'long haulers' slack group. Likely it is more down to
| the timings of the groups and vaccines, than linked to
| vaccines
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Why is it fair to entertain speculation about underreported
| deaths and all kinds of long-tail effects of COVID the
| disease, but not fair to do the same speculation about the
| vaccines?
| fastaguy88 wrote:
| Because we know that Covid kills people (more than a
| million in the US), and there is very little evidence that
| Covid vaccines have killed people ( likely fewer than 100
| deaths in the US).
| native_samples wrote:
| Sadly there is lots of evidence that vaccines can kill
| people. Obviously, there's the primary reports from
| people saying "the vaccine killed someone I know" and the
| medical experts denying everything, e.g this 29 year old
| man:
|
| e.g. https://openvaers.com/covid-data/covid-
| reports/2251260
|
| _" On 06-Feb-2022, the patient received the 3rd
| vaccination with this vaccine. Pyrexia of 39 degrees
| Celsius developed. The patient took loxoprofen sodium
| hydrate, and the symptoms subsided. On 08-Feb-2022,
| around 20:00, the patient was confirmed as alive.
| Myocarditis developed. On 09-Feb-2022, at 07:00, the
| patient was found dead in the room. On an unknown date,
| autopsy was performed. No dissection was performed. The
| outcome of pyrexia was reported as resolved. The outcome
| of myocarditis was reported as fatal. Follow-up
| investigation will be made.
|
| Company Comment: The events developed after the
| administration of ELASOMERAN and there is temporal
| relationship. Reporter's Comments: Since no
| electrocardiogram was performed during the medical
| examination, the condition of the heart is unknown. There
| is no lesion in the brain such as subarachnoid
| hemorrhage. As CT scan showed no remarkable findings, the
| causality between this vaccine and death is considered
| unknown."_
|
| (n.b. Elasomeran is the Moderna vaccine). There are
| ~28,000 like that in VAERS and more in other countries
| equivalents. The party line on these reports is they're
| all written by fools and things like a healthy 29 year
| old dying of myocarditis just days after taking a vaccine
| known to cause exactly that problem, is simply "unknown
| causality" and a coincidence that tells us nothing.
|
| Unfortunately there's also the correlation with excess
| deaths.
|
| https://bartram.substack.com/p/increased-deaths-in-
| england-f...
|
| _" I note that we managed to get through the Omicron
| wave in the UK with normal levels of excess deaths in
| those aged 75-85, but as soon as the booster doses were
| rolled out we rapidly hit the threshold for a
| 'substantial increase'."_
|
| People who are trying to convince themselves and others
| that this is all just mysteriously undetectable COVID
| need to explain why the correlations are wrong.
| [deleted]
| daenz wrote:
| In your eyes, what would constitute as evidence, and how
| would it manifest in the world?
| logicchains wrote:
| >Because we know that Covid kills people (more than a
| million in the US), and there is very little evidence
| that Covid vaccines have killed people
|
| The US VAERS vaccine adverse reporting system reports
| over ten thousand deaths post covid-vaccine, over two
| orders of magnitude more than reported for previous
| vaccines (including the flu vaccines which half of
| Americans take annually). Now, this does not imply
| causation, only autopsies can determine that, but for
| some reason in the US autopsies have not been done. In
| Germany, renowned pathologist Dr. Peter Schirmacher
| (acting chairman of the German Society of Pathology,
| director of the Institute of Pathology at Heidelberg
| University Hospital, and president of the German
| Association for the Study of the Liver) did conduct such
| autopsies, and found that 30-40% of the deaths following
| soon after vaccination were indeed caused by the vaccine.
| t0bia_s wrote:
| How many dead people of covid/vaccine you know
| personally? That should be more valid source of
| information for you.
| gpu_explorer wrote:
| Vaccines have been in use for hundreds of years. Fear of
| vaccines isn't rational.
|
| https://historyofvaccines.org/
| User23 wrote:
| Because we know with absolute metaphysical certainty that
| the vaccine is safe and effective. Thus whatever the cause
| is, however improbable, it must be something else.
| rnk wrote:
| I'd put it differently. We know that the vaccine
| absolutely saved millions of lives. Covid directly killed
| millions of people plus the millions more who have life-
| long complications from it.
|
| The vaccine is like any substance that goes into our
| bodies, it might have complex interactions with the
| functioning of the body, just as is true for the foods we
| eat, the things we encounter in our environment, even
| aspirin was recently reconsidered as a general thing to
| take daily. The vaccine has been extensively tested and
| now we have real world testing with billions of doses
| given that it is extremely safe.
|
| It's hard for people to talk about any potential concerns
| because of the huge number of people fixated on the fact
| that it could have other effects (like every single
| medicine in the world) who constantly make bad faith
| arguments (you have some sickness and got the vaccine and
| thus they claim the "obvious" connection). People had
| difficult to diagnose things like chronic fatigue
| syndrome before there was ever a covid vaccine and we
| don't understand those either.
| mlcrypto wrote:
| loceng wrote:
| SalmoShalazar wrote:
| IdEntities wrote:
| In private conversation my PCP will express concerns about
| the vaccines that she steadfastly refuses to share with most
| patients for fear of professional repercussions. You are
| operating from an assumption ("the institutions of authority
| are healthy and aligned with the imperative of finding and
| disseminating the truth") which I don't share.
| gameshot911 wrote:
| What sort of concerns? Big difference between "unsure of
| cost-benefit for patients aged 3-5" and "vaccines contain
| microchips".
| IdEntities wrote:
| It's more: unsure of cost-benefit for healthy males
| without comorbidities up to 40 and women up to 30 (
| _especially_ those who were already recovered from
| Covid), the insanity of recommending the shots to
| pregnant women with zero data regarding impact on fetal
| development, reactivation of latent viruses like herpes
| simplex which might suggest some level of induced broader
| immune dysfunction, and the potential for vaccine
| enhanced disease or OAS (especially given the use of the
| long defunct Wuhan strain spike protein in ongoing
| booster campaigns).
|
| Anyway, focusing on the specifics of the concerns is to
| avoid the more fundamental point, which is that doctors
| are not some cohort which one can implicitly trust to be
| guided by pure objective truth and scientific rigor at
| all times, nor are they a perfectly homogeneous group in
| lockstep agreement on all scientific questions.
| mwint wrote:
| Either concern will get you pilloried in a roughly equal
| manner.
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| What's with politicians doing the same? Perhaps doctors and
| pharmacists know better than politicians what medicines
| should be prescribed to patients.
| buildbot wrote:
| The next 5 years could be very interesting and sad if it turns
| out that COVID has lasting, long term damaging effects on your
| organs and vascular system, we are just beginning to see the tip
| of the iceberg.
|
| For example, there is an extremely serious post covid multi-
| system organ inflammation that occurs in children :
| https://www.cdc.gov/mis/mis-c.html
|
| Watch, I bet we will even see a huge jump in rare cancers.
|
| Edit: And in adults, it does weird things to your alcohol
| tolerance: https://www.kevinmd.com/2021/03/could-a-glass-of-wine-
| diagno...
|
| I can not drink wine really anymore.
| WoodenChair wrote:
| Some of what you wrote is true and some of it is pure
| speculation. I downvoted you for the unsubstantiated fear
| mongering in this sentence:
|
| > Watch, I bet we will even see a huge jump in rare cancers.
|
| People are afraid enough we don't need that.
| somewhereoutth wrote:
| The problem is that they _aren 't_ afraid enough - otherwise
| they'd be pushing to bring this pandemic under control.
| xyzzyz wrote:
| I'd rather bring under control people who are trying to
| prevent my children from having normal life. We all had
| Covid already (likely even twice). We are done with the
| theater. We don't want to listen to scaremongering. We want
| to smile in public. We want to breathe freely. We don't
| want or need any more boosters. If you like the
| restrictions, wear a mask, or just stay home permanently, I
| don't care. Just don't force me and my children into
| literally faceless, anti-social dystopia.
| somewhereoutth wrote:
| There is a big policy space between "We are done with the
| theatre" and "literally faceless, anti-social dystopia".
|
| Unfortunately many of the policies in that space will
| negatively effect powerful vested interests (see climate
| change, see health reform, see food standards, see police
| training, see banking, see...). Such vested interests
| have expended vast amounts of effort to convince the
| 'ordinary person' that nothing can be done - or
| equivalently, that the only things that would work would
| end our way of life as we know it. I'm sorry you seem to
| have been caught up in that.
| ethanwillis wrote:
| Put the fear aside, speculation is important as a tool for
| looking ahead at what possibilities there could be. It's not
| like the OP was trying to pass the speculation as fact.
| Personally, I would rather think about the "ifs" and plan
| ahead than to find myself in the "now" with consequences I
| could've possibly avoided.
| buildbot wrote:
| Fair enough
| uejfiweun wrote:
| As a counterpoint I got omicron in Jan and it was extremely
| mild. One day of fever and fatigue and I was back to normal. No
| lingering effects at all. I honestly think the hysteria over
| long covid is rather harmful in of itself, because now you have
| a lot of people with a sort of placebo effect. For instance,
| feeling tired and ascribing that to a permanent affliction of
| long covid rather than the 3 hours of sleep you got last night.
| raducu wrote:
| I got the original COVID and it felt very mild. Except I
| nearly passed out when I helped another patient in the
| hospital (the poor guy was obese, was on oxigen and they
| placed him near a window with no blinds and no AC, I had to
| improvise a blind from some bed sheets) from very mild
| excertion. And about a month afterwards I had a couple of
| episodes of vertigo. And then the tinitus started and I still
| get it two years in. And then half of my penis and testicle
| hurt when orgasming (thankfully that resolved).
| bsder wrote:
| As a counterpoint, I got Covid Original Flavour(tm) and it
| gave me a fever of 103 for a little more than 2 weeks and
| took me way more than a year to fully recover. And, I know
| several folks who are younger than me that are now dead--and
| every version of Covid is represented in that cohort (mostly
| anti-vaxxers after Delta--take that as you will).
|
| I'm glad your round of Russian roulette resulted in a blank.
|
| However, personally, when it comes to Russian roulette, I
| prefer to _not play at all_.
| jhardy54 wrote:
| "I flipped a coin and got heads, so the people who say they
| got tails must be confused"
| [deleted]
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| Long Covid has a proven association with microclotting and
| other vascular issues. Covid is essentially a vascular
| illness and there's some evidence it attacks the entire
| immune system.
|
| So this is anything but "hysteria." I know a shocking number
| of previously healthy people who have suddenly had strokes,
| heart arrhythmias, and - in a few cases - are now dead. Less
| dramatic symptoms include extreme incapacitating fatigue,
| persistent brain fog, joint pain, breathlessness, and
| measurably low blood oxygen.
|
| Your personal experience is exactly that - personal - and not
| in any way relevant to people who are now living with real,
| observable clinical abnormalities.
| darkerside wrote:
| Ditto.
|
| Heart disease has been a leading killer since long before
| COVID.
| darkerside wrote:
| Yes, this is real, and it's called the nocebo effect.
| StanislavPetrov wrote:
| b3nji wrote:
| And for all these people saying that the mRNA vaccines could be
| anything to do with it is absolute nonsense. Yes, Pfizer had
| some questionable data released during their trial, but show me
| a vaccine that hasn't had side effects?
| tsol wrote:
| I don't think this is deserving of being grayed out. There
| certainly do seem to be some lingering systemic effects for
| some people that have recovered from covid, and for some people
| those effects are very serious. Cancers, though, seem like a
| stretch. I don't see any reason to think covid would cause
| that. It's lingering tiredness that really seems to be common
| among those who have been infected
| raducu wrote:
| Wasn't it at some point that the greatest risk factor for a
| heart attack was if you got the flu in the past?
|
| Why wouldn't a virus that's 10-100 times more deadly not have
| serious long term effects?
| ramblenode wrote:
| Why is cancer a stretch? Other viral infections are well
| known to increase cancer risk. It seems like basically
| anything that causes tissue damage increases the risk of
| cancer, which is basically a result of the breakdown of
| information.
| highwaylights wrote:
| This. The biggest risk factor for cancer (to my knowledge)
| is accumulated cellular damage.
| darkerside wrote:
| The real question is, does it increase cancer risk more
| than a typical cold or flu.
| sorethescore wrote:
| It seems pretty likely that a vasculatory inflammatory virus
| that also infects the immune system will have lasting, long-
| term damaging effects on your organs and cardiovascular system.
| bsder wrote:
| > Watch, I bet we will even see a huge jump in rare cancers.
|
| Only if those cancers are triggered _specifically_ by Covid.
|
| For most other cancers, we are likely going to see a time-
| shifted _decrease_ in them.
|
| The Covid lockdowns absolutely wiped out a flu season. Other
| viruses probably had similar profiles. We know that asthma went
| down more than expected from environmental triggers during
| Covid lockdowns. Continuing hygiene is likely to push down some
| viral transmission--for example, sick service employees who
| can't take a day off have their transmission significantly
| curtailed by corporate policies still mandating a mask.
|
| Medicine is about to have a whole lot of information about
| things that are triggered by pathogens. The end conclusion is
| likely to be that we are _FAR_ to cavalier about viral
| diseases.
| FunnyBadger wrote:
| drno123 wrote:
| qgin wrote:
| What is your reasoning?
| mmmeff wrote:
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Is your theory that New Brunswick is the only place mRNA
| vaccines were administered?
| drno123 wrote:
| helloooooooo wrote:
| I know hundreds of people who have triple doses various
| combinations of Pfizer/Moderna/AZ vaccines. None of them
| have collapsed and died. Where does my anecdotal
| information fit into your theory?
| weaksauce wrote:
| > Where does my anecdotal information fit into your
| theory?
|
| Brushed away with the certainty of not fitting into their
| worldview I am sure.
| risyachka wrote:
| They could've had asymptomatic covid and never knew about
| it?
| pdabbadabba wrote:
| Well, if we're just trading anecdata: I know exactly zero
| people who collapsed and died within a few months of
| receiving a booster or second dose of the Pfizer vaccine.
| Where does that leave us?
| anamexis wrote:
| And why would these excess deaths be localized to New
| Brunswick?
| drno123 wrote:
| UK has excess non-covid deaths as well
|
| https://www.euroscientist.com/uk-recorded-more-
| than-10000-ex...
| lostlogin wrote:
| New Zealanders had a negative excess death rate with
| lockdowns and we have a high vaccination rate.
|
| Now we are letting covid run wild, so that stat won't
| persist.
| mattashii wrote:
| Can't that be explained by the delayed and cancelled
| normal checkups over the covid period?
| [deleted]
| Fargoan wrote:
| I know a guy who was in his early 30s and died of a heart
| attack. He was vaccinated, I think boosted, had covid a
| couple months before his death, occasionally did cocaine,
| ate a horrible diet, had an extremely stressful home life.
| I don't think it was the vaccine that did him in.
| [deleted]
| Claude_Shannon wrote:
| Hearing about this case, I'd say it's either prions (which is
| very scary), or major companies there don't really care about
| pollution effects...
| toolchange wrote:
| toolchange wrote:
| chinathrow wrote:
| Enlighten us.
| toolchange wrote:
| GenerocUsername wrote:
| Q6T46nT668w6i3m wrote:
| Breathe air? Drink water?
| toolchange wrote:
| toolchange wrote:
| snovv_crash wrote:
| Get COVID?
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