[HN Gopher] Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers
___________________________________________________________________
Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers
Author : flummox
Score : 65 points
Date : 2022-06-09 22:57 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bloomberg.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bloomberg.com)
| avsteele wrote:
| For my wife its mostly about being able to walk in the air
| conditioning. Hot outside
| ghaff wrote:
| There are plenty of locations that actually have reasonable
| parks and so forth where a lot of people just don't want to
| walk outside for a decent chunk of the year.
| colineartheta wrote:
| Can you expand on this? Are you describing areas outside that
| people walk in? Or some other area?
| ghaff wrote:
| Yes, parks are areas outside. There are other walkable
| outdoor areas in many places too of course. However, fairly
| large swaths of the US are very hot or hot/humid in the
| summer or cold/snowy in the winter. You can still go
| outside of course but it may not be the best conditions for
| a pleasant walk.
| Gravityloss wrote:
| antiterra wrote:
| I think the anti-mall narrative is generally misplaced.
|
| Suburban malls were a mitigation of sprawl but are somehow viewed
| more as a direct symptom. Strip malls continue to thrive, and the
| form where there are residences atop the commercial storefronts
| does little to improve the need to flit from parking lot to
| parking lot like consumerist pollinators. In Austin, there's a
| huge amount of development at the mixed-use outdoor Domain, some
| calling it a second downtown. Yet, the thing is peppered with
| crowded roads. And, it does little to escape triple digit
| temperatures. It isn't much of an improvement.
|
| Enclosed urban shopping areas have been around for a long time,
| from covered arcades and indoor markets to underground malls in
| cities.
|
| The PATH system in Toronto and RESO in Montreal create
| decentralized malls that are also ways to navigate a city on
| foot. Their creation was likely due to harsh winters more than
| concern about pedestrian traffic mixing with vehicles. They are,
| admittedly, kind of ugly and sometimes claustrophobic, but they
| are functional. I know there are underground malls in Manitoba
| cities for similar reason, but have never been.
|
| I love transit oriented developments like the little villages
| along the MAX light rail in Portland, but I don't think there's
| any where near enough momentum to spark a fully transit based
| pattern of development like there has been in Japan. (Some
| possible reasons/differences are covered in
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S235214652...)
| xg15 wrote:
| > _Yet, the thing is peppered with crowded roads_
|
| Not from the US, but: NYC has crowded roads crossing right
| through downtown. So does Paris and many other famously
| "walkable" european cities.
|
| I think while traffic is certainly relevant and it's always an
| improvement if it can be reduced, it's not what blocks an area
| from becoming walkable. It's more how much space the area
| affords for pedestrians _next_ to the traffic: Can you get from
| A to B without detours and without danger? Can you cross the
| busy roads? Are there enough spaces to get away from the
| traffic?
| chrisco255 wrote:
| The Domain seems to be better off than Barton Creek mall. Went
| there recently and a lot of stores were empty. Even Starbucks
| moved out.
| antiterra wrote:
| I agree, it is doing much better, it has hotels, large office
| spaces and housing. What it's really missing is a larger car
| free area. The roads aren't well designed for the volume of
| traffic they carry: busy crosswalks at four way stops. The
| drivers are also tense and frustrated and on the edge of road
| rage when it's really busy.
| ghaff wrote:
| Malls are generally dependent on anchor stores drawing
| traffic. And a lot of the historic anchor stores--in many
| cases department stores--have gone out of business or
| downsized. One pretty dead mall near me had a Penney's, a
| Sears, and a Macy's.
| jmyeet wrote:
| The real lesson of mall walking is that it came about because in
| many places there's literally nowhere else you can walk. Non-
| Americans may be vaguely aware that America has a sickness of car
| dependency but may be unaware of the extent of it.
|
| I present to you the 26 lane Katy Freeway in Houston, Texas [1].
|
| Non-Americans may not realize just how large these cities are
| geographically. I believe one end of the Houston metro area to
| the other is _almost_ as far as London to Birmingham.
|
| Many Americans live in the suburbs. This is complete car
| dependence. Children in particular often can't go anywhere
| without being driven.
|
| It's actually depressing what a soulless barren dystopia most of
| the US actually is.
|
| [1]: https://charlesandcharles.co.uk/f/take-a-look-at-the-katy-
| fr...
| robocat wrote:
| FYI: that "highway" is a photoshop fake.
|
| Note the pattern of dark heavily driven lanes - that is the
| most used slow lane copied again and again. See other comment
| pointing to reddit discussion.
| hoppyhoppy2 wrote:
| Growing up in northern New England, a lot of mall walkers chose
| it not because we have too many freeways or lack bike paths,
| hiking areas, or nature trails, but because walking outdoors
| can be unpleasant in the dark, frigid, snowy, and often-
| slippery depths of winter. An icy path may not be a huge deal
| for someone my age, but the risks are greater for an older
| person falling from a standing height (e.g.: one in three
| adults age 50+ dies within 12 months of getting a hip
| fracture).
|
| I imagine people in very hot climates appreciate being able to
| exercise in air conditioning, and you can also schedule it with
| others (say, every Tuesday and Thursday at 10am) regardless of
| inclement weather. But I would guess a lot of it has been
| supplanted by going to the gym (there are a lot more gyms, at
| least around here, than there were a couple decades ago).
|
| I agree about Texas. When I stayed a night in Amarillo I was
| astounded not only by the fact that everyone there drives a
| giant tank, but that there weren't any sidewalks, even though
| my hotel was within walkable distance of various stores, etc.
| occz wrote:
| >Growing up in northern New England, a lot of mall walkers
| chose it not because we have too many freeways or lack bike
| paths or nature trails, but because walking outdoors can be
| unpleasant in the dark, frigid, and often-slippery depths of
| winter. An icy path may not be a huge deal for someone my
| age, but the risks are greater for an older person falling
| from a standing height (e.g.: one in three adults age 50+
| dies within 12 months of getting a hip fracture).
|
| This sounds to me like a matter of infrastructure - street
| lights and plowing + puttin gravel on walking infrastructure.
|
| >I imagine people in very hot climates appreciate being able
| to exercise in air conditioning, and you can also schedule it
| with others (say, every Tuesday and Thursday at 10am)
| regardless of inclement weather. But I would guess a lot of
| it has been supplanted by going to the gym (there are a lot
| more gyms around here than there used to be).
|
| And this also sounds to me kind of like a matter of
| infrastructure - planting trees to provide shaded paths and
| cooler microclimates could remedy this issue. This one is
| less solvable though on account of the ongoing climate
| catastrophe, but it can at the very least be improved.
| hoppyhoppy2 wrote:
| Those infrastructure improvements sound great, don't get me
| wrong, but walking in a snowstorm in windy 10-degree-
| Fahrenheit weather would still be considered unpleasant by
| a lot people even with good plowing and lighting. (I hike
| and run all through winter, but some people just want a
| comfortable place to walk.) Maybe climate catastrophe will
| "help" "solve" that issue, but in the meantime I think a
| lot of folks around here will continue to walk in malls and
| gyms when it's cold out.
| occz wrote:
| >Those infrastructure improvements sound great, don't get
| me wrong, but walking in a snowstorm in windy 10-degree-
| Fahrenheit weather would still be considered unpleasant
| by a lot people even with good plowing and lighting. (I
| personally hike all through winter, but some people just
| want a comfortable place to walk.) Maybe climate
| catastrophe will "help" "solve" that issue, but in the
| meantime I think a lot of folks around here will continue
| to walk in malls and gyms.
|
| The key to this is that there's no 10F snowstorm every
| day. It's perfectly feasible to optimize for the case
| where it's a simple and pleasant snowy day.
|
| I don't think the climate catastrophe is likely to remedy
| the problem of unpleasant weather up north,
| unfortunately. It's liable to just get more extreme.
| Aloha wrote:
| In Texas, walking outdoors can the unpleasant or outright
| dangerous in summer or frankly winter (in Amarillo
| certainly). We drive giant tanks because distances are vast
| here between towns and cities - also because gas tax is low.
| refurb wrote:
| This is a bizarre take. Most suburbs I've seen is actually
| _amazing_ for walking in.
|
| Sure if there is no sidewalk it sucks, but if you walk where
| people live usually there is a nice walking path, minimal
| traffic, lots of families around. I've lived in dense urban
| centers and walking can suck with the crowded sidewalks, always
| having to cross streets with cars, the noise.
|
| People aren't walking in malls because of car culture. Usually
| they walk in malls because it's too damn hot/cold outside.
| phil21 wrote:
| > People aren't walking in malls because of car culture.
| Usually they walk in malls because it's too damn hot/cold
| outside.
|
| People (most) are walking in malls entirely due to car
| culture. No one where I live in Chicago is going to the mall
| to walk - because they walk every day just by default to get
| things done.
|
| When you use a car to go literally everywhere, you don't have
| that exercise baked in. It's difficult to commute here and
| walk less than a mile a day, usually much more. When I lived
| in the suburbs this might be measured in hundreds of feet.
|
| Very few people go walking for the sake of it, regardless of
| location or weather. If you're not walking on a daily basis
| simply for practical reasons - odds are you don't walk
| regularly at all.
|
| The rest is subjective - but I highly prefer "pleasure walks"
| in the city as well. After a month or two in the suburbs
| you've seen literally everything there is to see within a 1
| mile radius of your home, and it almost never changes. A
| living city is a much different experience, and it's rare a
| walk won't result in some novel discovery or meeting a
| neighbor. This personally motivates me walking new routes far
| more than the endless sterile lawns in the suburbs.
|
| Not to mention how insanely anti-pedestrian many suburban
| populations are - you will absolutely be harassed unless you
| are on designated walking trails in my experience. I did live
| in one inner-ring suburb that was a far better experience,
| but I feel most here would consider that to be light urban
| vs. suburban.
| morsch wrote:
| Nice places for a walk: the forest, a river bank, a park,
| walkable (zero car) city center. Poor places for a walk:
| anywhere there are cars, anywhere that is indoors. I get that
| there are places with inhospitable climate where it's too hot
| even in a shady forest or too cold even with the right
| clothes. Those places just don't have truly nice places for a
| walk.
| pnutjam wrote:
| This is simply not true, and it was less true in the
| 80's/90's.
| coastflow wrote:
| There might be two separate assertions under discussion.
| One is that it is typically difficult in a suburb to get to
| a landmark destination (e.g. to the grocery store, to the
| gym, to a coffee shop, and to work) just by walking,
| without a car.
|
| This is true. At the same time, suburbs with low rates of
| crime are typically nicer to walk around without a
| destination in mind. It's typically easier to go outside
| for a jog or run in a suburb than in downtown, as there are
| fewer cars on the road and other pedestrians on the
| sidewalk.
| alphabettsy wrote:
| > At the same time, suburbs with low rates of crime are
| typically nicer to walk around without a destination in
| mind.
|
| I have to disagree here. In the suburbs there is nowhere
| to go and nothing to discover. Walking around the city I
| see new people, restaurants or other businesses that I
| find interesting. The suburbs where I grew up were always
| the same thing.
| throw0101a wrote:
| > _The suburbs where I grew up were always the same
| thing._
|
| Hence the title of the book _The Geography of Nowhere_ :
|
| > _The Geography of Nowhere: The Rise and Decline of
| America 's Man-Made Landscape is a book written in 1993
| by James Howard Kunstler exploring the effects of
| suburban sprawl, civil planning, and the automobile on
| American society and is an attempt to discover how and
| why suburbia has ceased to be a credible human habitat,
| and what society might do about it. Kunstler proposes
| that by reviving civic art and civic life, we will
| rediscover public virtue and a new vision of the common
| good: "The future will require us to build better
| places," Kunstler says, "or the future will belong to
| other people in other societies."_
|
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geography_of_Nowhere
| Retric wrote:
| I have been in plenty of suburbs without sidewalks or
| almost worse where there are bits and pieces of sidewalks
| that don't connect to each other. Walking on the road is
| possible, but can be quite dangerous in such places.
| jjav wrote:
| > One is that it is typically difficult in a suburb to
| get to a landmark destination (e.g. to the grocery store,
| to the gym, to a coffee shop, and to work) just by
| walking, without a car.
|
| > This is true.
|
| Could you post a few map links to suburbs (not rural)
| where you can't walk to, say, a grocery store or a coffee
| shop?
| matwood wrote:
| Yeah, people tend to take the worst suburb setup and
| compare it to the best city setup. The reality is,
| there's a lot in between.
|
| I live on the coast in a suburb about a 1/2 hour outside
| the downtown area. The long edge of my suburb is banked
| by a river with neighborhood supported docks, and large
| green spaces along the river. There's a grocery store at
| the entrance to the neighborhood (along with cleaners,
| bars, etc...) that people walk and ride bikes to. There
| are other large green spaces where kids play sports plus
| there's tennis and basketball courts, golfing, pools,
| etc...
|
| I'm not saying where I live is perfect, but as I started
| with, people like to take the worst mid-west suburban
| hell and compare it to the best city like NYC. When I see
| these discussion what I hear is all the more reason why
| people are migrating to the coasts.
| Ar-Curunir wrote:
| While the streets are quiet, it's really not fun to walk in
| neighborhoods where every house looks the same, and where
| there's no visual variety.
|
| Personally I find a 15-minute walk in my suburban
| neighborhood feels much longer than a 15-minute walk in the
| town where my college was located.
|
| The other extremely irritating part is the completely ass-
| backwards design of suburban neighborhoods that makes walking
| to places much longer than necessary. Eg: there's a grocery
| store _literally_ right behind my house, but without a door
| in my backyard, it would take me 5+ minutes to walk there.
| listenallyall wrote:
| How is it ass-backwards for a grocery store not to install
| a door and entrance for the custom use of a single
| household?
| Ar-Curunir wrote:
| None of the houses on my street have easy access either.
| The point of that anecdote wasn't that everyone should
| have backyard doors, but rather that the street design
| should make it easy to get to places, and not require
| circuitous routes that make life difficult for
| pedestrians.
| gsk22 wrote:
| This is true in certain American suburbs, but definitely not
| all. Older and less affluent suburbs, in particular, often
| have abysmal walking infrastructure.
|
| I'm not sure this fits the prototypical suburb -- but I have
| spent a lot of time in southern Texas, and look at this
| amazing pedestrian infrastructure: https://www.google.com/map
| s/@26.1413614,-97.9581625,3a,75y,3...
|
| They recently (past ~5 years) installed new ADA-compliant
| pedestrian crossings from which you can walk...nowhere. But
| you can circle the 4 corners of the intersection all day!
|
| (Incidentally, the restaurant on the SW corner of the
| intersection is amazing!)
| joebob42 wrote:
| There's also what looks like a perfectly lovely park a few
| blocks away
| bombcar wrote:
| I mean that area almost looks rural - if you go over to
| where the houses are they actually have some sidewalks.
|
| The street names also imply it's rural or was rural very
| recently.
| gsk22 wrote:
| Yeah, I'm not sure the right terminology for the type of
| urban landscape it is.
|
| There's uninterrupted development for a 30 mile stretch
| between McAllen and Harlingen, with densities ranging
| from suburban to exurban. So not quite typical American
| suburbia, but similar sprawl and car uber-dependence.
| muti wrote:
| I think the point about suburbs promoting car dependence over
| walking is more about walking _somewhere_
|
| Sure, it can be nice to go for a walk around the
| neighborhood, but mostly only in a loop, there is no
| destination. One of the reasons I moved where I live is due
| to the walkability. I'm technically in the suburbs of a
| medium sized city, but happen to live close enough to a small
| retail center that I can walk to shop for groceries, get a
| hair cut, go to a pharmacy and many other things.
|
| It's _really_ nice to be prompted to go for a nice walk
| instead of hop in a car when I need to run an errand.
| csydas wrote:
| I'm not sure this is a universal experience.
|
| The suburbs my family lived in were quite hostile towards
| pedestrians, as the lack of sidewalks had two primary
| outcomes:
|
| 1. People just rarely walked
|
| 2. As a result of 1, drivers became unaccustomed to
| pedestrians and adjusted to a driving style that assumed no
| pedestrians
|
| I absolutely don't really fault the drivers too much, as it's
| reasonable -- the road is for cars and in most situations
| with roads it's not expected to have pedestrians except at
| crosswalks.
|
| But it's not universal that suburbs are pedestrian friendly.
| Especially growing up in the midwest, even suburbs with
| sidewalks were not very pedestrian friendly. Despite laws
| requiring maintenance and upkeep of the sidewalks (including
| snow shoveling during winter), it's not feasible for able-
| bodied persons to walk across many suburbs because of how
| awful the upkeep of the public sidewalks are, neverminding
| people persons with disabilities or injuries.
|
| The heat is inconsequential -- where I live now, since about
| May it's been 34o or higher real temperature (feel is close
| to 40o or higher), and yet everyone is accustomed to it and
| still out and walking. It's easily changeable, but the main
| difference is the city has many walkable elements, many small
| parks with shade, public fountains to cool off, and so on.
| Getting to a shop to get a cheap bottle of water (or beer,
| why not?) is a matter of walking 50 meters in any direction;
| the last US city I lived in, even though it was better than
| _many_ US cities, it was still almost 2 Km to get to the
| nearest store that had anything small to drink/refresh
| yourself (and you had to cross an 8 lane road that fed into
| I5, so it was pretty busy).
|
| My takeaway as a US native is that US cities really did get
| ruined by the influence of car culture, and the cities are
| exceptionally hostile towards pedestrians. Even the quaint
| suburb-style cities ( < 500k population) which advertise
| their closeness and small town feel are ostensively
| pedestrian hostile just due to poor planning which prevents
| you from getting around by foot or by reliable, cheap, and
| safe public transportation.
| sampo wrote:
| > I believe one end of the Houston metro area to the other is
| almost as far as London to Birmingham.
|
| One end of the London metro area to the other (say, from
| Reading to Southend-on-Sea) is almost (half of the distance) as
| far as London to Birmingham.
|
| Both London and Houston seem to have metro areas of maybe
| almost 100km in diameter.
| joeamroo wrote:
| Living in Katy is hellish when you don't drive and want to
| hangout on the weekends as a broke college student:
|
| A. you are surrounded by aliens (cars) who look at you
| strangely for _not_ riding a car B. There 's not a place to
| hangout and talk to people in the street
| msandford wrote:
| That's not an actual picture of the road in the article. I'm
| also not sure one should count the feeder or access road as a
| part of the freeway. If you can't go freeway speeds it's
| probably not a freeway.
| fourthark wrote:
| I counted 40 lanes in that picture!
| red369 wrote:
| I think that photo might not be of a real place - here is a
| discussion trying to locate it:
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/whereisthis/comments/iss0vj/where_
| i...
| [deleted]
| jfk13 wrote:
| While that picture doesn't belong with the article (it's not
| the Katy freeway mentioned, if indeed it's a genuine photo at
| all and not a photoshop job), the real thing in Texas seems
| dystopian enough in its own right: https://www.google.com/map
| s/@29.7847495,-95.5325233,3a,75y,2...
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| Seems pretty similar to the 401 in Toronto, which is 18
| lanes wide on some parts (not including merge lanes or
| access lanes):
|
| https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.64726,-79.6370771,631m/data=
| !...
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| Not all suburbs are complete car dependence. Plenty of kids
| biked in their suburbs in the '80s and '90s. In the '90s I
| would alternate between biking and walking to and from a school
| that was 2.5 miles away. And within that 2.5 miles there was
| plenty of things for me to do.
|
| Since then, I've lived in about 7 different US suburbs. All had
| things to do within about 1.5 miles of where I lived, and I
| wasn't exactly aiming for mobility.
|
| This last year, I walked my kid to elementary school every day.
| It's a 10 minute walk. My 3 neighbors, whose kids go to the
| same school, drive them.
| hedora wrote:
| I lived in a subway like you describe. The slightly newer
| suburbs didn't have sidewalks, and had non-leveled, unmowed
| (easy to twist your ankle in your 20's) green space moats
| between each housing subdivision and shopping strip mall.
|
| The poor folks had to cross a narrow, 4 lane car bridge to
| get to work. There was a bike fatality on that bridge every
| six months or so.
|
| This was in a city with above average transit and bike trails
| for the US, but most housing was still gratuitously car
| dependent.
| WalterBright wrote:
| In the area where I live, the schools are in easy walking
| distance. I never see kids walk or bike to school.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| Maybe because you're not out right before or after school?
|
| I know that at least where I live in Ontario, if you live
| within 3 km (elementary) or 5 km (secondary) of the school
| you are not entitled to bus pick-up. Maybe some parents
| drive their kids, but most kids walk, and a few bike. Also,
| if you live farther away than that, the bus stop could be
| as far away as 0.5 km where the bus picks up a lot of kids
| at one time (unless you live on a busy highway, in which
| case it will be at your driveway).
|
| Related: late last night I sent an email to my city
| councilor to see about getting bike lanes added to some of
| the roads in the neighbourhood of two schools. One of my
| arguments was that it would make it more viable for kids to
| bike to school. I've had this thought _years_ ago, but only
| now did I decide to actually see if I could get it done. To
| my surprise, the councilor _and_ the mayor responded early
| this (Saturday) morning, both in agreement and said they
| would add it to the agenda for discussion and invited me to
| send further comments to their Master Transportation Plan
| that will soon be meeting (I believe this is something they
| do every 10 years). We 'll see if it actually gets done,
| but I'm hopeful.
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| In my experience, a lot of these people (mayor's, etc)
| are huge transit nerds. The problem is getting the
| citizens and budget behind it.
| mgdlbp wrote:
| > Critics say that the road will simply attract more traffic,
| but the way in which it is managed means that traffic is
| dispersed and therefore means there is less congestion than
| your average motorway.
|
| What's the incentive for a UK construction talent agency to
| defend it? I don't actually grok any road traffic science aside
| from repeatedly seeing induced demand[0] mentioned; is there
| any truth in that?
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand
| throw0101a wrote:
| > [...] _induced demand[0] mentioned; is there any truth in
| that?_
|
| RAND Europe 2018 study for the UK Department for Transport,
| "Induced travel demand: an evidence review":
|
| > _The objective of this study was therefore to review the
| empirical evidence on induced demand, with a view to
| understanding the size of the effect and where and under what
| conditions it occurs. In practice, measured induced traffic
| effects will depend on the time period over which they are
| measured, the geographical area and whether short-run or long
| run effects, particularly on land use, are included. While
| the impact of background growth is not included in this
| review, empirical studies of induced travel need to control
| for background traffic growth, as well as traffic changing
| route (reassigned traffic)._
|
| [...]
|
| > _The evidence reviewed in this study supports the findings
| of the SACTRA (1994) report that induced traffic does exist,
| though its size and significance is likely to vary in
| different circumstances. It was not possible to obtain any
| qualitative understanding about the composition of induced
| traffic in terms of new trips, redistributed trips, transfers
| between modes and trips associated with new developments.
| There remain wide variations in the quantitative evidence
| that make it difficult to draw conclusions about the
| magnitude of the impact of induced demand from road capacity
| improvements on the Strategic Road Network. However, we draw
| some tentative conclusions:_
|
| * https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/induced-travel-
| de...
|
| * PDF: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/up
| loads/...
|
| 2021 follow-up, "Induced travel demand: analytical research":
|
| * https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/induced-travel-
| de...
|
| From the Netherlands:
|
| > _The increase in traffic volume that arises after opening
| of new road infrastructure, is often attributed to 'induced
| demand'. The objective of this study is to provide
| empirically derived insights in this phenomenon, in the
| amount of induced demand and in the benefits that adding road
| infrastructure has for users. Based on multivariate analyses
| of detailed data in The Netherlands from 2000-2012, it is
| concluded that the amount of induced demand in total is
| relatively low and that the relatively large increase in
| traffic volume during peak hours on roads that were congested
| before adding lanes mainly has been caused by shifts in route
| and departure time. The benefits of the new infrastructure
| for users have been calculated in terms of savings of travel
| time and travel time reliability. Implications for cost-
| benefit analyses of road investments have been reviewed._
|
| * https://doi.org/10.1016/j.trpro.2016.05.008
|
| Huge amounts of academic literature on this.
| mgdlbp wrote:
| larryett wrote:
| It is absurd to say there is no place to walk in the suburbs.
| People just walk on the suburban streets. Most suburban streets
| are obviously not the highway. I just got back from a walk in
| the suburbs and passed 5 other people out for their morning
| walk. I don't think I even passed a car.
|
| My impression of mall walking is that it was largely used by
| people when the weather was bad.
| bluejekyll wrote:
| One thing missing in a lot of suburban places is the ability
| to walk to do chores.
|
| Out of curiosity, what destinations do you have within 15
| minutes of walking? Can you buy milk? Go to the bank? Have
| access to a coffee place? Etc.
|
| It's nice to have walking paths, but so many new developments
| in the US seem to actively make walking a poor option (beyond
| exercise). The roads in many of these areas even if there is
| a store nearby are upwards of four or five lanes across, and
| then the stores are setback behind huge parking lots without
| much protected walking from the street to the store.
| jjav wrote:
| > One thing missing in a lot of suburban places is the
| ability to walk to do chores.
|
| Within 15 minutes walk of my very suburban house there are
| two supermarkets, two pharmacies, many restaurants (some
| fast food but also real restaurants), multiple coffee
| shops, movie theaters, library & post office, hardware
| stores, other misc stores, multiple banks & credit unions
| and other things I'm forgetting to list.
|
| One question I've asked in these threads in the past is
| where are these suburbs where you can't get to anything
| except by driving half an hour? I'd be curious for specific
| place names that I can look up in maps to get a sense of
| what they're like. Because having mostly lived in suburbs,
| I've never experienced that. There's always walkable
| destinations in all suburban areas I've seen. Could someone
| post a few addresses of these unwalkable suburbs?
|
| I've also lived in a rural area, and yes there a car was
| essentially a must to go anywhere. I could and did
| sometimes walk (was young and bored) but it was more than
| an hour walk to anywhere. But that was definitely rural, we
| had many acres of forest, certainly not a suburb.
| niftich wrote:
| Norfolk / Virginia Beach, VA:
|
| https://www.google.com/maps/dir/36.7727569,-76.0409875/Ha
| rri...
|
| https://www.google.com/maps/dir/36.7651538,-75.9875131/AL
| DI,...
|
| https://www.google.com/maps/dir/36.695792,-76.2014209/Har
| ris...
|
| Charlotte, NC:
|
| https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.1699757,-80.7776553/Pu
| bli...
|
| https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.3178445,-80.8026925/Fo
| od+...
|
| https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.1256141,-80.764483/Har
| ris...
|
| Oklahoma City:
|
| https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.5530786,-97.5514845/Wa
| lma...
|
| https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.4038959,-97.5743727/Ca
| sh+...
|
| Las Vegas:
|
| https://www.google.com/maps/dir/36.2812358,-115.1554982/S
| mit...
|
| https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.9958535,-115.1523847/W
| alm...
| jjav wrote:
| Great links, thanks!
|
| The North Carolina ones I wouldn't quite consider a
| suburb, given the large forested areas and huge lots,
| that's pretty rural already.
|
| The VA and OK ones are good examples! At least the roads
| seem nice for cycling.
|
| Las Vegas seems particularly hellish, with the heat
| probably wouldn't even cycle these routes.
| niftich wrote:
| Perhaps it's a terminology issue. No one in the visible
| map frames of the Charlotte links would consider
| themselves to live in a 'rural' area. Sure, their
| neighborhood might be pleasant and quiet, and there's
| abundant tree cover, but the mapped path is alongside
| houses the entire time. The linear density is high. In a
| rural area, there exist lots with generous road frontage
| that interrupt the linear sea of homes.
|
| This is a nearby area that those residents would agree is
| rural: https://www.google.com/maps/@35.3612637,-80.381869
| 9,5696m/da...
| jjav wrote:
| Yes, there is certainly terminology ambiguity on what
| "suburb" is.
|
| To me the huge lots, big setbacks of houses away from
| street and major forest cover, isn't a suburb. The new
| link you posted seem more like farmland, not rural
| housing.
|
| To me a suburb is where houses or townhouses (but no
| highrises) are packed next to each other in small lots.
|
| But yes, it would be useful to have more specific
| definitions of housing densities instead of dumping
| everything that's not farmland or Manhattan into
| "suburb".
| eropple wrote:
| _> One thing missing in a lot of suburban places is the
| ability to walk to do chores. ... what destinations do you
| have within 15 minutes of walking? Can you buy milk? Go to
| the bank? Have access to a coffee place? Etc._
|
| This represents in part a terminology clash, I think, and I
| think it impacts the discussion a lot. "Suburb" means
| different things in different parts of the country. I live
| on the edge of what you'd call "suburbs" around Boston, and
| yes to all of these; my morning routine is to walk about
| 7-8 minutes down to the nearest convenience store for a
| morning beverage and maybe a bagel. It's next to my bank,
| across the street is a coffee shop and a couple of nice
| bars. Maybe five minutes past that is a liquor store, an
| Indian food market, and my auto mechanic.
|
| I can be in downtown Boston, by train, in 30 minutes, but
| unless I throw on a backpack and walk 2.5 miles round-trip
| I'm not going to the hardware store or to a full-size
| grocery store. Which I do, when I have the time, but here's
| where the overlap with more conventional "suburbs" happens:
| _when I 'm walking somewhere, nobody else is_. It's totally
| doable and totally reasonable, even in bad weather, but the
| locals don't have that mindset, so they don't do it.
|
| Much of what folks like Strongtowns talk about is actually
| represented pretty well in my New England town, but we're
| the "burbs" because we're outside the city proper. On the
| other hand, I've been to places like Des Moines, IA, and
| the suburbs are just car parks as far as the eye can see.
| PebblesRox wrote:
| Reminds me of this image of the city center of Florence shown
| to-scale next to a single highway interchange.
|
| https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2019/11/19/visualizing-p...
| PaulHoule wrote:
| Our mall has 4 busses an hour and it is becoming a non-profit
| center as stores fade away, the Hospital moved in COVID testing
| and vaccination and will be moving in more medical officers,
| other kinds of NGOs such as toy banks are moving in. (E.g. there
| is no 'toy store' to compete with it, no 'pet shop' to compete
| with the SPCA, etc.
| al_borland wrote:
| From what I've seen malls are consolidating. The good ones
| continue to do well and get even nicer, while all the others
| slowly die as people make the trek to the good mall. There is
| no room in the market for average.
|
| It will be interesting to see what happens to them as they die,
| as they are quite unique pieces of real estate.
| xoxxala wrote:
| Here in Orange County, CA, they are converting some dead
| malls to apartment complexes.
| fibonachos wrote:
| Seems like an amazing opportunity to build a pedestrian-
| centric community. Include a grocery store, coffee shop,
| gym, and some green space, with automobile infrastructure
| exclusively below ground or on the periphery. The idea
| being that you don't need a car for most of your daily
| needs. Doesn't sound half-bad to me if I'm a renter (which
| I was for most of my adult life).
| tomcam wrote:
| Haven't lived there in 30 years. Which ones? Guessing
| Orange Mall, maybe some in Garden Grove or Santa Ana?
| al_borland wrote:
| That would be pretty interesting. Are they mixed use
| spaces? It would be kind of cool to have an apartment with
| shops you can just walk to, like a little town square.
|
| It would be quite ironic to live in an old mall, while then
| needing to drive to get anything.
| ghaff wrote:
| Where I live there is a shopping plaza that does quite well
| overall with a _very_ busy chain home improvement store and
| supermarket. Some other stores like Starbucks that seem to do
| very well also. But the central mall anchored by largely
| defunct department stores is effectively dead.
|
| At the same time , as you say, there are vibrant shopping
| malls within 30-45 minutes.
| webwielder2 wrote:
| The lack of large plazas and walkable streets in the US really
| bums me out. I wish I was European, there I said it.
| refurb wrote:
| I've walked all over US cities. Hell I've walked from one side
| of SF to the other.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Same. But those parts of SF tend to be super unaffordable.
| presentation wrote:
| You also have to know them well enough to avoid the shady
| areas, not look muggable, not be female, not be small, not
| carry anything that looks remotely valuable, and only walk
| during daylight hours or else you're taking a significant
| risk (though all of that didn't save me from random verbal
| abuse when walking around the city or taking public transit
| nonetheless). And you have to be cool with places being
| totally filthy, and regularly cross 6-lane roads on a
| regular basis (yes, most of SF is like this). Plus you have
| to have a thick skin to see the abject horrors of
| homelessness and drug addiction everyday and convince
| yourself, "yup, this is normal and totally fine".
|
| Yeah, that was fine for me when I was a 20 year old,
| relatively large man who didn't know that the rest of the
| world has much more hospitable places for pedestrians and
| human beings generally, but no thanks today. Kinda
| depressing that at least from a walkability standpoint it's
| about as good as it gets for the USA.
| ars wrote:
| Europe is pretty small - just pick a small subset of the US
| that meets your needs and enjoy it. The US has a huge variety.
| If a small section is good, you don't need the rest to change.
| presentation wrote:
| Uh, Europe and the USA have similar area (with Europe being
| slightly larger). Though Europe has 2.5x the population.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| There aren't many small sections of america that are walkable
| like europe, and the small areas that are happen to be very
| unaffordable
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| They're taking applicants.
| octokatt wrote:
| The lesson I'm taking away from this is if the U.S. wanted to
| support its increasing senior population and improve the
| loneliness epidemic [1] _and_ obesity epidemic, buying up malls
| and retrofitting them into public community spaces would be a
| huge step in the right direction.
|
| [1] https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2018/loneliness-an-
| epidem...
| phil21 wrote:
| Very mixed feelings about this sort of thing.
|
| On one hand, it's practical and seems to immediately offer a
| minor amount of relief for a very small number of people. Don't
| let perfect be the enemy of good and all that.
|
| On the other hand, the urban design that caused the social
| fabric of the country to fall apart will remain, causing the
| problem to continue unabated. You need to fix this before the
| people get old to have any meaningful wider impact on the
| population.
|
| Seems like some form of surface-level McCivics vs. actually
| building up lasting civic institutions that can endure and
| strengthen the community throughout all life phases.
| starkd wrote:
| Building up lasting institutions is only going to happen from
| the ground up, starting at the local level. I tend to doubt
| it can successfully be imposed from the top down - especially
| not by the government.
| hedora wrote:
| What about the national parks service?
| starkd wrote:
| Not really a "civic institution". that's a governement
| agency.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| maybe not the federal government, but states could do it -
| eliminating single-family zoning, for example
| feet wrote:
| We could even turn malls into arcologies, walkable and highly
| social housing and amenities
| newaccount2021 wrote:
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| or we could build our cities and towns so they are pleasant to
| walk around in!!!
| codemonkey-zeta wrote:
| A fantastic group in this space is strongtowns (.org). The
| essays on their site have really opened my eyes to the
| particularities of American infrastructure which make life in
| those places ... suboptimal. I'm particularly fond of the
| "stroads" essay
| https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/10/30/the-stroad,
| and share the term with people IRL, who also seen tickled by
| it.
| starkd wrote:
| Most of them were pleasant to walk around in at one time!!!
| iso1631 wrote:
| Certainly not in the days of the horse and cart
| [deleted]
| tomcam wrote:
| > Anderson, sitting in for a day, observes the largely male
| population commenting on ladies' dress and appearance, reading
| the paper, and, in one case, getting served coffee by a woman
| acting as mall "wife."
|
| Wut
|
| Couldn't find references on the Web... what is a mall wife?
| throwawayForMe2 wrote:
| Have you heard of a "work wife"?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_spouse
| causality0 wrote:
| One aspect of shopping malls I feel is vastly underappreciated is
| how they fulfilled the needs of those of us on the spectrum or
| who are otherwise antisocial. Shopping malls let us immerse
| ourselves in socializing people without having any responsibility
| to engage directly with individuals. I found it quite blissful to
| be in a crowded space and feel like a social participant without
| expending any "social battery" to do so. These days I still visit
| my local mall around Christmas time for the feeling. I find it
| sad today's teenagers don't get the same experience.
| jkingsman wrote:
| For a bit of a topical giggle, this 1987 woman is... /super/
| passionate about her mall walking.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMfPDBahbPI
| hubblesticks wrote:
| I am having a very hard time telling if this is scripted/ad-
| libbed or a real person. I hope it's a real person because it's
| wonderful.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| I'm leaning toward scripted. It's a fairly easy set up for a
| joke.
|
| Like this sort of stuff, they're shorter than that segment
| but sort of the same idea:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9hRIjys4Qw
| throw0101a wrote:
| > _I 'm leaning toward scripted._
|
| This is (allegedly?) a segment from the British documentary
| series _Equinox_ , from the episode "Malltime":
|
| * https://www.imdb.com/title/tt15434612/
|
| * https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0264241/
|
| * https://tftsarchive.gla.ac.uk/vod/maindisplay/?mid=7203&n
| id=...
|
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equinox_(TV_programme)
|
| So an actual person it seems.
| hubblesticks wrote:
| It feels that way too. I was just hoping it might have been
| authentic! Either way it is lovely. Thanks for sharing it!
| presentation wrote:
| I used to live in US suburbs, but now live in Tokyo - a lot of
| older postwar-constructed neighborhoods especially on Chuo Line
| from Nakano-Kichijoji have covered shopping arcades (shotengai)
| that are well connected to transit (as one would expect from
| Tokyo) and really nice to be in - it's like halfway between the
| accessible/controlled nature of malls (though without air
| conditioning), and a normal urban setting.
|
| Separately, my suburban hometown in the US seems to be leaning
| into urbanism, with a (n artificial-feeling) human-scale city
| development with nice outdoor shopping and mixed use development
| (apartments, office, and retail space) in the middle of a parking
| lot and strip mall-dominated wasteland. It feels like that area
| is boomeing, seems like a trend of these urban islands in the
| deep suburbs is getting popular (presumably to the detriment of
| the nearby city itself).
|
| Meanwhile the malls are getting either destroyed, repurposed into
| other stuff like warehouses, or remain open but have the weirdest
| niche shops which I don't really understand how they survive. I
| never liked the feeling of being in a mall, it just feels like a
| weird commercial dystopia to me when I'm in them, but never
| thought of them from the perspective of inclusivity and
| accessibility. Guess the biggest flaw is that they tend to be
| inconvenient to get to, in places that are inaccessible to start
| with.
| tomcam wrote:
| > After police officers removed elderly Korean Americans from a
| McDonald's in Flushing, Queens -- managers claimed the group
| overstayed their welcome, buying only coffee and french fries
|
| Before you judge McDonald's... this is a thing in Asia. Talk
| privately to someone who works in a Shanghai Walmart, IKEA, and
| so on, and you will learn that massive groups of these
| freeloading aunties can shut down any business with a free place
| to sit for hours. They will buy as close to nothing as possible,
| are rude to employees, and are not averse to clotting up a
| business for half the day or more.
|
| Sounds vaguely comical but it's severely not fun if you're an
| employee or prospective paying customer who just wants to park
| the kids, grab a bowl of noodles and rest your dogs for a few
| minutes.
| Markoff wrote:
| Since when job should be fun? Who cares they are rude? It's not
| like there is some law you must be nice to employee, especially
| if they are bothering you.
|
| Lived in China for years and yes, IKEA in Beijing is occupied
| by families enjoying bedrooms and living rooms, sleeping there,
| hanging there, but I've never seen it as issue and never seen
| any conflicts, that's just how it works there and I can
| understand these people considering temperatures in China and
| some of them not having AC (or saving money).
|
| By your logic you could complain about Chinese/Asians not
| giving tips or bringing their own drinks to restaurants. These
| both may seem outrageous to American SJW, but I find it as
| European actually very nice and logical behavior. Why should I
| be giving any tips to someone getting salary, do you give tips
| to policeman, clerk in supermarket or McD staff? Doesn't
| business ear enough money from the food I order that they need
| to rob me on drinks as well? Well, I might as well eat at home,
| if they like it more, if they have problem with me bringing my
| own drink.
| tomcam wrote:
| > Since when job should be fun?
|
| I love your attitude, seriously. Many, many people would
| actually be happier in life if they knew their job doesn't
| owe them everything.
|
| My use of "not fun" was meant to be understatement, a gentle
| Way of saying that working conditions are highly unpleasant.
| And while I don't feel everyone's jobs have to be fun, I do
| think it's my moral obligation not to darken anyone's days if
| I can avoid it.
|
| > By your logic you could complain about Chinese/Asians not
| giving tips or bringing their own drinks to restaurants.
|
| And don't worry, I find those practices to be just as
| unpleasant. My wife and I laugh about it routinely.
|
| > Why should I be giving any tips to someone getting salary,
| do you give tips to policeman, clerk in supermarket or McD
| staff?
|
| You may have chosen the wrong hacker news person for this
| discussion. It's illegal to give tips to policeman, but I
| regularly give tips to both clerks in the supermarket and
| McDonald's.
|
| > Doesn't business earn enough money from the food I order
| that they need to rob me on drinks as well?
|
| Preach, brother! The whole concept of tips is alien to me
| because if it's inconsistency in the application. I am a
| generous tipper but I am completely baffled as to why I
| should tip some people versus others. But what I do know is
| that everyone loves to get tips. And if I can afford it, why
| not make the day a little bit better?
|
| > Well, I might as well eat at home, if they like it more, if
| they have problem with me bringing my own drink.
|
| Judging from the rest of your message I think that's a great
| idea
| charlescearl wrote:
| If the elders and families on the periphery can't catch a
| break at capitalism's expense in PRC then we are done.
|
| > Doesn't business ear enough money from the food I order
| that they need to rob me on drinks as well?
|
| Exactly!
| jancsika wrote:
| > These both may seem outrageous to American SJW
|
| Yes-- for far too long we've been putting up with these
| insufferable American SJWs and their _reflexive defense of
| the private property rights of megacorporations to refuse
| service to loiterers?_
|
| I unironically love this definition of SJW and vow to use it
| in all future HN posts where I can shoe-horn it in.
|
| Edit: clarification
| [deleted]
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