[HN Gopher] Toxic Productivity
___________________________________________________________________
Toxic Productivity
Author : jackdelaney
Score : 292 points
Date : 2022-06-10 05:01 UTC (18 hours ago)
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| [deleted]
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| > After all, what good is your time if you aren't doing something
| with it?
|
| Actually calculating how much my time is worth helped me answer
| this. Divide money earned by hours worked to get an $/h figure.
| Any moment where I can't do anything to earn more than that is
| free time. This algorithm ensures I only make extra effort when
| an activity actively improves my value and allows me to enjoy
| myself completely free from guilt at all other times.
| jdthedisciple wrote:
| But how much do you practically enjoy yourself ultimately then?
| Sounds like technically you could almost always be making more
| money somehow ... ?
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| I've decided that enjoying my life is better than making less
| $/h than I'm currently worth. I'll only accept more work if
| it pays more than that. My goal is to constantly maximize
| that figure.
|
| I could accept all jobs regardless of pay and make more money
| by working at all times but that suffers from a serious case
| of diminishing returns. It's harmful for my self-worth and
| self-respect when I put in extra effort to make less than
| what my time is worth. So I just do nothing instead.
| black_puppydog wrote:
| This brings me back to the book "Four Thousand Weeks" (not "4000
| Weeks"!) which was recommended to me here on HN and which goes
| (among others) into the idea that the very concept of measuing
| time and treating it as some source of resource (that is
| naturally scarce and valuable!) is a very modern, western way to
| see it.
| avgcorrection wrote:
| I saw in the news recently that relatively many (relative to
| women) pensioner males kill themselves because they find that
| they have no purpose in their post-work lives.
| Minor49er wrote:
| Reminds me of the episode of King of the Hill where Hank
| worried about if his obituary headline read "Hank Hill: Found
| Dead, Not Working" because it would be embarrassing
| rob74 wrote:
| One aspect of "toxic productivity" I was thinking of that wasn't
| addressed in the article is not how it affects you, but how it
| may affect your work. I have often worked with people who could
| get a lot done quickly, but what came out of it was so half-baked
| that it was of little or no value or required several cycles of
| feedback until it could be used. So it's not only the quantity of
| stuff you do, you have to also keep an eye on the quality...
| Tozen wrote:
| I see that more as such people pretending to be productive,
| when they aren't. Some examples are managers in all kinds of
| constant meetings, as if that is work by itself, versus actual
| outcomes. Related to that, are people you see working excessive
| hours and give all kinds of reasons for it, but the actual
| output is very little or doesn't justify the extra hours.
|
| People who are faking productivity can be quite hard to spot,
| because often they look busy. If others become suspicious and
| try to confront them or try to detangle the spaghetti of
| inefficient practices, there is often a flood of excuses and
| illogic. Not necessarily just with the workers, but also with
| supervisors or managers, who are hiding that they don't know or
| are not sure about what they are doing.
| notakio wrote:
| I am rather compulsive with my approach to anything, whether work
| or leisure, and have a strong tendency to pour myself into the
| task at hand. I wouldn't categorize this as "toxic productivity",
| in that I don't feel like it causes me any harm, and isn't
| focused exclusively on work-related matters. I am the same way
| with hobbies that I am with work tasks that I find challenging;
| if I'm going to do a thing, I will do my best to be as good at
| doing that thing that I possibly can, regardless of the overall
| merits of me doing that thing.
|
| The part of what is described that resonated is the feeling that
| I can't "sit still", and have to be "doing something". I've got a
| three year old daughter whom has improved my life immensely, and
| yet I still get comments from people about my other projects, and
| how much I get done regarding those projects, despite having a
| toddler. My secret, of course, is just that I can't sit still. My
| free time has been diminished pretty severely by becoming a
| father, and yet when I have a spare hour or two, I won't sit and
| relax; I will take that time and try to push through as much as I
| can on whatever project I'm working on.
| daviddaviddavid wrote:
| It's unfortunate that the entire article is focused on toxic
| productivity as a feature of individuals, as though their
| personal/psychological shortcomings are to blame.
|
| I think it is worthwhile asking what are the cultural,
| structural, workplace conditions which contribute to people
| feeling like this in the first place. Are people more likely to
| have 'toxic productivity' when they are having unrealistic
| deadlines/workloads thrown at them? Does management foster a
| hypercompetitive environment? Does being tethered to Slack/Teams
| contribute? Do specific workplace methodologies such as Agile,
| etc have an effect?
| b3morales wrote:
| Very much this; it was actually what I expected the article to
| be about. Though it's true that both halves are important to
| consider.
| throwaway4aday wrote:
| So we're just rehashing workaholism with a modern spin? We really
| are just living through a cycle that endlessly repeats. I've
| started reading books and listening to interviews done in the
| early 1980s and I've been astounded as to how the culture at the
| time was almost identical to what we're doing now. It's down
| right creepy but when I think about it it's not unexpected. From
| my point of view, that's exactly 1 generation. My peers and I
| have no memories of the period and so it makes sense that we
| haven't learned any of the lessons from that time. Thus we're
| doomed to repeat them now that we are the ones dominating the
| economy and the culture. It makes me wish for a more thorough
| survey of modern history to be taught in schools, I'm sure that
| with enough research you could identify significant trends that
| repeat on a regular basis which you could then teach to students
| so that they had some warning of what was to come and could
| perhaps break out of the cycle.
| bsenftner wrote:
| You want immediately relevant history to be taught in schools?
| The Conservatives will lose their minds at the suggestion of
| any such thing.
| posedge wrote:
| Can you give some examples of which things haven't changed?
| rco8786 wrote:
| The cycle you're referencing goes back way past the 80s.
| Consider where the phrase "burning the candle on both ends"
| comes from. Epictetus (an Ancient Greek philosopher) often
| talked about this subject. Etc.
|
| It's not a "cycle" to be avoided with better schooling, but
| rather just the persistent, ever present human condition that
| we must all learn to manage individually.
| Frost1x wrote:
| I don't think workaholism is an issue so ubiquitous that it
| could be considered a human condition to deal with. It's
| certainly existed for an undoubtedly long time, as you point
| out ("burning the midnight oil" was another more recent
| reference). It may even be a survival trait that developed
| for some: persistence and effort, not giving up, focus, etc.
|
| In the modern human experience most people realize they don't
| or shouldn't have to run constantly just to survive. They
| understand how societies function and that if everyone puts
| in a little effort we'll all get growth and returns.
|
| Modern workaholism in my opinion stems from market factors
| driven by capitalism and governmental policy. People have to
| hustle to survive more and more, we've began stripping off
| the protections societies have and replacing darwinistic
| survival of the fittest with a human social abstraction of
| survival of the fittest in economics. You need to make sure
| you succeed in the market to provide food, shelter, so on,
| otherwise you will starve or falter to poor health. You may
| be out on the streets living in a box. You'll still have some
| protections over living in a jungle alone, you're less likely
| to be eaten by a tiger or mountain lion but your overall
| longevity will be lower relative to economic success on
| average.
|
| So the captains of industry, those who hold the purse
| strings, those who shape the culture and expectations are
| forcibly creating these sorts of obsessions through various
| private policies in terms of employment. You need to reach
| certain goals, you only take so many days off, you need to
| exceed your peers, you need to "grow" (become more efficient,
| pull in more revenue relative to your cost), and so on.
|
| These environments shape a lot of workaholics you see now, in
| my opinion. They do it because to succeed in life they need
| to. To do the things they want to do, those are the rules
| they must play by. To supply their families, they pick up a
| second job, they sacrifice their evenings with their families
| to get a little ahead so maybe they'll be promoted or get a
| raise to meet up with inflation or in some cases, just so
| they're not the one on the chopping board when cuts come to
| provide stability.
|
| Do this stuff long enough and it becomes embedded in your
| personal expectations and behaviors: you begin to be shaped
| by your environment. That's why we see so much deep focus on
| work. It's all driven by economic expectations and more so
| those who want to see their wealth magically transformed into
| more wealth passively.
|
| It's not everyone, there are those completely driven and
| obsessed with goals aligned to workaholism but I don't think
| it's ubiquitous, most people set realistic goals for
| themselves and just want to have a happy living experience
| not extravagence and exceptionalism. I think those who have
| these obsessions are the ones who shape the culture from the
| top down due to a selection bias in our economic system
| (although.. due to pigeonhole principle, only so many of them
| are at the complete top--many need to live with less powerful
| positions).
|
| This is not some crazy argument for socialism or to promote
| laziness, I think it's an overall good idea that people have
| some drive to be some measure of productive, it's instead an
| argument that capitalism has gone to extremes in efficiency
| and growth expectations and trimmed too much fat off the
| labor force to try and meet those expectations that labor is
| slowly starving. We need to reign expectations back down to
| something sane.
| Maximus9000 wrote:
| Krazam has a great satire video about this (only 2 minutes)
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o7qjN3KF8U
| mariodiana wrote:
| > Create a simple end-of-workday routine (like reviewing your
| calendar for the next day and clearing all of those used coffee
| mugs from your desk) to signal to your brain that it's time to
| switch out of "work mode."
|
| I think this is key. I had a 40 minute drive home. I don't miss
| the drive. What I miss is the demarcation of my workday and
| transition to free time. Maybe I could switch in and out of
| tennis shoes, like Mister Rodgers used to do.
| Tozen wrote:
| I wonder if there is a conflating of pushing oneself too hard or
| with a toxic work environment, with toxic productivity. I've
| always seen toxic productivity more in the context of a person
| having an unbalanced life, where they have nothing going on for
| themselves but work. When life is completely consumed by work,
| those types more often mentally burn-out, get into stress related
| health problems, or we see suicides.
|
| That a person sets goals for themselves that they seek to
| accomplish, is often a good thing. Those goals usually only
| become problematic when they are unrealistic or its too much, too
| soon. Like if a person is way too overweight, but thinks they are
| going to be able to run a marathon in a month. So by pushing an
| exercise routine to the limit, they begin to have say knee or
| back problems.
|
| If a person is simply goal-orientated or competitive in multiple
| aspects of their lives, I don't see that as toxic, unless they
| are taking it to extremes. Like if it is causing relationship,
| stress, or mental health issues.
| goatcode wrote:
| I think a possible problem with this concept is the assumption
| that its application is a constant. It's definitely a bad thing
| to produce in the extreme _all the time_, however from time to
| time, depending on the industry or pursuit, an otherwise
| unhealthy obsession is admirable and necessary. Without such a
| thing, many of our innovations and industries would not exist
| today -- Tesla was pretty "toxically productive," it could be
| argued. Certainly in his case, he probably took it too far at
| times, but we'd be in mud huts with no running water if
| individuals such as he were not permitted to operate as they see
| fit.
|
| If an individual or group of individuals doesn't want to be
| hyper-focused, fine, don't do it, but it's a dangerous thing to
| judge others who may be different for being different form you.
| bibliographer wrote:
| > 1. Untangle your self-worth and your work
|
| When you are passionate about your work, it can easily bleed into
| every other area of your life -- you read about work-related
| topics in your free time, you think about a particularly
| challenging problem in the shower, you journal about your work,
| etc. It also changes ones social circle: hanging out with an
| ambitious and curious start-up crowd easily leads to work as the
| default topic in a gathering of friends. Once you have work
| deeply embedded in your interests and social life, it does not
| take a huge mental leap to "work is what defines me as an
| individual".
|
| That then leads to a precarious "all eggs in one basket"
| situation that leaves you vulnerable in cases of professional
| failure ("My start-up is not doing well; I am a failure") or
| burnout ("I'm cynical about my work; nothing matters").
|
| It took quite a bit of time to disentangle my self-worth and my
| professional identity, but it makes life so much better.
| nowherebeen wrote:
| That makes a lot of sense. Work and life should have a clear
| boundary, but it's sometimes not easy to see. Especially when
| you are young.
| PheonixPharts wrote:
| A related issue is that many technical people mistake a passion
| for their _craft_ with a passion for their _work_.
|
| For example, I am very passionate about statistics, I spend a
| tremendous amount of my free time studying it. I also work as a
| data scientist. For far too long I mistook a passion for
| statistics as a passion for data science. I know many software
| engineers make a similar mistake regarding their passion for
| programming.
|
| This is a surprisingly big issue in my experience because
| commitment to your craft can lead to friction with your work
| and vice versa. This is not a problem when you realize these
| are two distinct things, but can lead to problems if you aren't
| aware of this difference.
|
| The most obvious one is that confusing work for craft means you
| can put more energy into your employer's goals than ones
| related to bettering your craft (and also yourself). For a
| software engineer, at first, a late night coding session can
| benefit both. However in the long run if you keep spending time
| solving your employers problems, you will have less energy to
| study and practice software for it's own sake. This can also
| lead to burn out in which you start to lose you passion for
| your craft as well.
|
| The reverse of this is also true: being very good at your craft
| can hurt you professionally. Your employer doesn't care about
| good code, or the correct statistical models. In the past,
| whenever I saw fundamentally incorrect statistical tools being
| used in production at work I couldn't stop and try to correct
| it. I've seen many software engineers struggle similarly when
| orgs make bad technical decisions.
|
| I failed many interviews because the interviewer had a mistaken
| view of things, and rather than just play along, I would try to
| correct them (I've learned that no matter how sincere and kind
| you are in your correction, it is always a mistake to correct
| an interviewer). I distinctly remember the first time an
| interviewer incorrectly "corrected" me, and instead of
| justifying my decision, I just said "wow you're right, I was
| just sketching out some ideas here, but that path is worth
| investigating". Got that job very easily.
|
| Eventually I realized that I am passionate about statistics and
| mathematical modeling, these are related but ultimately
| tangential to my day job. It's great that I get paid well to do
| something closely related to what I love to study, but at the
| end of the day it's no different than a true coffee lover
| working at starbucks.
| djmips wrote:
| It funny you mentioned the interview thing. I interviewed at
| Google with someone who obviously has the wrong mental model
| of how multi-threading worked at the OS and hardware level
| and I got into that exact situation. I could tell they were
| annoyed and I realized my miscue immediately. Didn't get that
| job even when the rest of the day long interview went very
| well.
| karmakaze wrote:
| An interesting distinction. I think I've somehow found
| subconscious ways to keep these aligned. I suspect that my
| craft is finding creative technical/programming solutions to
| semi-well-defined problems so that intersects with work. If
| there's a lack of such problems and learning opportunities,
| I'd look elsewhere. I'll be thinking about this more from now
| on and seeing how I can do things differently. I should at
| least be able to identify some cases where I don't like the
| feeling of something then learn why.
| tj-teej wrote:
| This is such a great distinction! The reason people are
| encouraged not to make their work their life is that their
| work can be taken away from them (including for reasons that
| are in no way their fault). But a passion for your craft can
| transcend your day-to-day work.
| barbazoo wrote:
| > That then leads to a precarious "all eggs in one basket"
| situation that leaves you vulnerable in cases of professional
| failure ("My start-up is not doing well; I am a failure") or
| burnout ("I'm cynical about my work; nothing matters").
|
| I have such an annoyingly hard time with this. From a simple
| "couldn't achieve a technical goal I set for myself for the
| day" on a Friday afternoon ruining my Friday night and, through
| ripple effects, subsequently the rest of the weekend to I'm
| unfulfilled in my job therefore I'm worthless.
| LowkeyMouths wrote:
| I definitely experienced this. The problem for me was that in
| addition it made it harder to deal with tough feedback as self
| worth is connected to the work.
| vasco wrote:
| You could say the same about falling in love with someone, it's
| great, you can get caught up in it, and you're really
| vulnerable in case the relationship fails.
| shafyy wrote:
| The analogy here would be to not cut out all your other
| social relationships just because you have a romantic
| partner. Make time for your family and friends.
| BeFlatXIII wrote:
| People not following this advice is part of why the
| American divorce rate is so high.
| dwaltrip wrote:
| Fundamentally, the idea here is to learn to love and care for
| yourself no matter what job you have, what relationship you
| are in, and so on.
|
| Much easier said than done :)
|
| But it is a very worthwhile pursuit. And future jobs and
| relationships will be better for it.
| idealmedtech wrote:
| One is a fundamental human experience. The other is a SaaS.
| davidguetta wrote:
| Some would argue that careers usually last longer than the
| usual modern relationships..
|
| In both case I think the advice is "do not get invested
| that much that you loose everything including yourself if
| it fails".
| brailsafe wrote:
| Well, you have managed to have pretty long career as a
| DJ. I don't know if anyone can be so influential in
| software development as you were with House music ;)
| eckza wrote:
| > "do not get invested that much that you loose
| everything including yourself if it fails"
|
| That's great advice if you're 18 years old; but some
| things are worth the risk.
|
| If you're not all in, you're not in at all. While this
| certainly applies to work in some cases, it applies as
| much as again if you want to start a family.
|
| Modern relationships are a hell because everyone has
| their eye on the door at all times - ready to bolt at a
| moment's notice if something goes wrong, or if something
| better comes along.
|
| You'll never have a family of your own with that mindset;
| it's a problem that causes itself.
| antonvs wrote:
| > If you're not all in, you're not in at all.
|
| Seems like black and white thinking. There's a big
| spectrum between those two extremes, and no good reason
| you can't healthily occupy a point on that spectrum. In
| fact, many points on that spectrum are probably a lot
| more healthy than either extreme.
| cercatrova wrote:
| Depends on how much success you have with the SaaS, perhaps
| it changes your life enough to be a world-changing event.
| Some people fall in love multiple times, not many can say
| the same about making a ground breaking SaaS.
|
| Tongue firmly in cheek, in case people don't get what I'm
| saying.
| dkarl wrote:
| Work is a fundamental human experience, too.
| vladimir929 wrote:
| I don't think so. When you look at the historical record.
| Work either in the modern or agricultural sense has only
| existed for at most 5% of human existence.
|
| It's a modern concept.
| feoren wrote:
| This starts from the hidden assumption that all work sucks.
| Basically, if you become passionate about your work, you will
| necessarily burn out, because work is awful for everyone all
| the time everywhere. It's a little like saying you should work
| really really hard to not be too into your romantic partner,
| because every human being on the planet is an abusive asshole.
|
| Clearly not every human being is an abusive asshole; it's
| _wonderful_ to be really extremely deeply invested in your
| romantic partner! But unfortunately we can 't really say the
| same thing about work environments.
|
| What you're actually doing here is excusing shitty work
| environments. If all jobs are abusive to their employers, we
| need to _fix that_ , and quickly. There is nothing more
| satisfying in life than being passionate about your work, and
| the fact that it is virtually impossible to do so without
| eventually feeling like a battered abuse victim is a symptom of
| a late-stage cancerous regulatory-captured capitalism run by a
| caste of psychopaths.
|
| I _want_ to be passionate and invested in my work. Can we work
| together to make that a good thing, rather than being something
| only stupid loser suckers do?
| luxurytent wrote:
| My challenge with this is that I feel I am not good enough, so
| I make the extra effort (e.g in my personal time) to show up
| and be better. The problem is I've been burnt by this in the
| past and I see it happening again to myself. There's a few
| things I've done differently to prevent burn out, but anytime I
| pause, my inner critic catches up and works to remind me how
| incompetent I am relative to everyone else.
| paulcole wrote:
| You're probably not good enough at a lot of things (this is
| true of nearly everyone), so why do you make the extra effort
| to get good at work? How do you know you're not good enough?
| Are you getting fired over and over?
| gmadsen wrote:
| if you are going to spend extra hours outside normal, make
| sure it at least is benefitting you with new skills or
| experience.
|
| no one is cheering on the dude who decides to vacuum the
| office after work for free
| bibliographer wrote:
| These patterns of automatic thoughts ("how incompetent I am
| relative to everyone else") are a pain to overcome,
| especially, if there is no alternative avenue for self-worth
| (e.g. I am a good partner / friend / child / parent /
| citizen).
|
| It's also quite surprising to note how easy these thought
| patterns emerge from seemingly nothing. The bar we evaluate
| ourselves against is often quite removed from rational
| thought -- we can easily place this at an arbitrarily high
| point just out of reach ("OK, my start-up is growing; it
| doesn't matter, it needs to be grow faster!").
|
| Good on you for reflecting and picking up these thought
| patterns!
| grasshopperpurp wrote:
| Your inner critic can be shaped to what you need it to be.
| First, I'd change, I'm not good enough, to I want to get
| better at X. Seems like semantics, but perspective is
| everything. When possible, frame things in the positive (hit
| the ball, rather than DON'T miss).
|
| When you do this, I think it will be easier to convince your
| inner critic that you need rest (not just sleep but time to
| pause, other activities for your brain/body, etc.). Whatever
| balance is for you, you can train your inner critic to
| prioritize that over a cruel checklist.
|
| Also, I think it's unhelpful to describe yourself as
| incompetent relative to everyone else or not. If you are
| behind some others, there are reasons (most probably related
| to experience), and if you understand them, I think you
| should be at peace with where you are. That doesn't mean stop
| improving. It just means, I am here; to get to Z, I must do X
| and Y.
|
| Basically, zoom in and out of your situation enough to
| understand it, and do the best thing for you. It could be
| helpful to frame it as though you are setting up the
| parameters for a friend rather than yourself. A lot of people
| aren't as kind to themselves as they are to people they care
| about. Care about you; be kind to you.
| SubuSS wrote:
| I think you're forgetting natural talent (it is their
| Acceleration to your velocity), commitment, energy, lack of
| distractions, luck and so many other things you can't
| account for. Feeling left behind is inevitable even if
| you're on the top of one field - there are going to be
| others you're not at the forefront of. The billionaires pay
| a ton of money to play tennis/golf for example - ask them
| how they feel when they watch pga/open events.
|
| The crux of the answer is making peace with getting left
| behind and constructing meaning where you're. Or use that
| as motivation. In a connected world the Jones are way too
| many in number to match and exceed.
|
| I think we as humans need to and will find the ability to
| have a thick skin for this. We have had to historically
| build resistance to various distractions - this is just the
| latest where all the celebs are very interested in making
| you feel like they are regular humans as well and what they
| do is very much achievable for everyone: in short it isn't
| and we just need to get with the program.
| goodpoint wrote:
| > Once you have work deeply embedded in your interests and
| social life, it does not take a huge mental leap to "work is
| what defines me as an individual".
|
| No, you are confusing cause and effect around emotional
| attachment and passion/effort.
|
| People are equally likely to attach their sense of self-worth
| to aspects that require zero effort: nationality, favorite
| sport team, family name...
|
| Putting a lot of effort into something is not the cause for
| attachment, but sometimes it can be the effect.
| Existenceblinks wrote:
| Off-topic: scroll down to their site footer, it is a full page
| size. I've seen many adopt this pseudo professional look,
| marketing feeling, like *we have a ton of thing* or *we are
| really big*. I found it's uncomfortable.
| siskiyou wrote:
| When I untangled my my self-worth from productivity, I retired.
| Consider it a possible outcome of succeeding at that.
| rexreed wrote:
| Back in the day we used to call this being a workaholic. Old wine
| in new bottles as they say.
| theoa wrote:
| I am very productive, never satisfied and always happy.
|
| To paraphrase John Wanamaker: half my productivity is toxic, half
| is beneficial. The trouble is I don't know which half.
|
| In any case, the article is readable and brings up a number of
| observations I can relate to.
|
| Bye for now. I need find a way to release some more dopamine
| somehow. ;-)
| metanonsense wrote:
| That I was able to read that text during work-time gives me hope.
| pontsprit wrote:
| Oof as someone who makes a living as an artist this article hit
| hard. There's little to no separation between what I do and who I
| am. Been thinking about inhabiting character modes/avatars as
| different modes of output hopefully without introducing some
| schizoid element(?)
| amriksohata wrote:
| This is brilliant and the journey I went on
|
| Don't get overwhelmed with a massive to-do list just do what is
| realistic and small amounts and prioritise
| rco8786 wrote:
| This is something I struggle with, and there's some good advice
| in here (though nothing particularly novel). I do want to call
| out one thing that probably _doesnt_ work that's in this article:
|
| The idea of scheduling your downtime. Or blocking off "leisure
| time" on your calendar
|
| This would be akin to an alcoholic putting "sober blocks" on
| their calendar. It doesn't address the problem, it in fact
| acknowledges and accepts the problem as normal.
|
| For me the biggest problems have been: taking on too much too
| fast, and my phone.
|
| For the first, saying No has been the cure though still difficult
| sometimes. The second I think does not get the attention it
| deserves. Delete work email, delete work slack, delete work
| calendars from your phones. If you are literally carrying your
| work around with you in your pocket every waking hour there's no
| chance you're going to avoid it.
| benreesman wrote:
| I've met a lot of "this is my job" people, and I've met a lot of
| "this is my life" people.
|
| I've personally done both. I was once well-paid to discern the
| difference from afar.
|
| It's unfortunate but true that the ICM, adderall-abusing,
| 20hrs/day people just fucking crush the folks who kayak on the
| weekend.
|
| Being a monster in technology isn't everything, but being the
| best in _anything_ is inherently extreme.
|
| Olympians don't have a "healthy body image".
|
| They'll do anything to win.
| vsareto wrote:
| >It's unfortunate but true that the ICM, adderall-abusing,
| 20hrs/day people just fucking crush the folks who kayak on the
| weekend.
|
| Not sure what ICM means, but if it's coding on adderall,
| 20hrs/day is not going to make great code. And this is assuming
| all of the requirements are perfectly written and understood.
| Especially if you're not taking adderall therapeutically.
| [deleted]
| codingdave wrote:
| > 20hrs/day people just fucking crush the folks who kayak on
| the weekend.
|
| I think the point is to let go of that measuring stick. If you
| measure them by how satisfied they are with their lives,
| kayakers are the ones crushing it. Being the best at something
| and the extreme work that requires does not necessarily make a
| better life than just walking your own path at a pace that
| works for you.
|
| Neither should that diminish anyone who truly does want a life
| where they push to the extreme to be the best. If that works
| for them, great. But that is not for everyone.
| benreesman wrote:
| I said nothing demeaning about life satisfaction or mental
| health or work/life balance as goals. People who emphasize
| life satisfaction are almost definitionally living a "better"
| life in some sense.
|
| I am rather impatient, as you can likely tell, with people's
| endless efforts to conflate that with elite technical
| ability, either individually or in a team.
|
| I ground it out over decades with no education and for at
| least one of those decades, no mentorship.
|
| I'm not advising anyone to take that path, but I'll always
| get grumpy if someone triple equals that with learning some
| scripting language and being good at GitHub.
| daniel_reetz wrote:
| At BigCorp, I was a "this is my life" IC. But minus the
| Adderall. It took nearly two years to understand that my
| coworkers were using stimulants to keep up their level of
| effort. It was a revelation, but one that strongly contributed
| to my departure.
| tomjakubowski wrote:
| > It's unfortunate but true that the ICM, adderall-abusing,
| 20hrs/day people just fucking crush the folks who kayak on the
| weekend.
|
| Maybe, but at some point - hopefully before they burn out -
| they'll realize they are drug addicts without any meaningful
| life outside of work, and then they take up kayaking on the
| weekends.
| ajhurliman wrote:
| Non-facetious question: will kayaking bring them meaning in
| life?
|
| I'm a little burnt out on these articles that talk about work
| life balance, 4 day work weeks, UBI. Not working isn't going
| to bring you meaning in life, it'll probably make you more
| sedentary and feel more isolated from the world (or at least
| it does for me).
| macNchz wrote:
| How do we define being "the best at technology"? In software
| there are some types of tasks that truly benefit from any
| additional hour worked, but plenty of others for which that is
| actively counterproductive.
|
| I'd say I've done some of the _worst_ work of my career during
| the weeks of deepest crunch time. Many of the people I 've
| known closely who've worked like that long term have had
| stress-induced medical problems.
|
| It's also interesting to point to Olympians here...elite
| athletes follow carefully planned training programs to balance
| training and rest to avoid overtraining, and while the best of
| the best can work up to massive training loads, there is a
| point for every human where additional training hours start to
| negatively impact your performance. To my understanding, recent
| research actually suggests elite athletes should sleep a couple
| of hours per night more than most people, so in some way a key
| piece of "doing anything to win" involves scheduling time to do
| nothing at all.
| benreesman wrote:
| The absence of a strict metric yielding a total ordering (if
| you want to get all math pissy about it) over all people who
| write code does not in fact create any confusion about where
| Carmack or Dean sit relative to the average shmuck (e.g. me)
| who knows what a branch table buffer is and knows what it is
| on Golden Cove and Xen 3, and the fucking JavaScript-only
| people.
|
| I hate that knowing your craft and not being embarrassed
| about it is a faux pas around here.
|
| When did people who haven't put in the time become a
| protected class? It's not borderline racist to know why
| Electron apps suck ass in excruciating detail.
| [deleted]
| robjan wrote:
| Most Olympians train less than 40 hours per week. Yes, they
| make some sacrifices, such as not having that ice cream or
| drinking water at the bar but it's very possible (and normal)
| to have a life outside training.
|
| Besides, nobody's gonna sponsor a boring Olympian.
| h2odragon wrote:
| The Olympic level athlete I knew trained most every moment
| she had that wasn't committed to other things, like school
| and sleep. Her life from about age 5 to 17 or so was about
| her sport.
|
| I dunno what sports might require "sacrificing ice cream" but
| AFAIK Olympians are _nuts_ and have very little life after
| their events.
| benreesman wrote:
| Yeah, the elite coders I've known don't do anything else.
| Sometimes a light gym routine to keep their posture in
| place for the high-G burn.
| brianmcc wrote:
| >> It's unfortunate but true that the ICM, adderall-abusing,
| 20hrs/day people just fucking crush the folks who kayak on the
| weekend.
|
| Not at kayaking.
|
| And I'm only being slightly facetious. "Winning at coding/tech
| career" is just one dimension of many, many alternatives.
| bumby wrote:
| Very true, but it can be difficult to manage in team
| environment.
|
| It's frustrating when a "this is my life" person relies on a
| "this is my job" person and the latter is too busy planning
| their next kayak trip to carry their pack. It would be the
| equivalent of the former constantly poking holes in the
| latter's kayak.
| brianmcc wrote:
| Don't mix up "enjoys work life balance and has evening and
| weekend plans" with "slacks off at work and drops the ball"
| though, they really are not the same.
|
| The latter can and should be challenged. I 100% agree
| someone not really engaging at work can have a highly
| negative impact.
|
| IMO we should aim for "highly engaged 9 to 5 - but then
| enjoy _life_ "!
| bumby wrote:
| > _IMO we should aim for "highly engaged 9 to 5 - but
| then enjoy life"!_
|
| I agree, but that perspective doesn't reconcile with the
| point higher up in the thread from somebody who works in
| the field of identifying high performers. I believe their
| point was that the "work is a job" people can't really
| compete with the "work is my life" group. Naturally then,
| the latter group would then be constantly outpacing the
| others.
| brianmcc wrote:
| That's a fair point. The challenge is to decide what you
| want from life - to be a Top 1% Career Winner or someone
| who spreads their resources more evenly, with the
| compromises that really does force.
|
| You can crush it and give your all in your 20s, and take
| a difference pace later on at the right time for you, and
| that can work very well for people, it often does!
|
| The original article is cautioning against an all-in-one-
| basket approach that - rather than launch you into the
| career achievement place you expect - ends up taking more
| than you can give and burning you out.
|
| It's also not all-or-nothing. Consider a Normal
| Distribution of achievement, it's entirely OK to be in
| the top 25% or 10% rather than top 1%. None of us I'm
| sure wants to be in the bottom percentiles, but it's fine
| to not even aim for the very very top. That's my view
| anyway, others will definitely disagree!
| bumby wrote:
| You're completely right. I just don't know how a "Career
| 1%" person can continue that path in a team full of, say,
| "Kayak 1%" types. At some point, the team will limit your
| trajectory.
|
| I guess it speaks to finding your tribe of people with
| similar values.
| kubanczyk wrote:
| It's all about the framing. So, is it that "people just fucking
| crush [some other people]"?
|
| I'd say with that framing you can go kayaking and you'll be
| constantly vigilant about kayakers around you, building your
| status, watching their speed, noting their achievements, etc.
|
| On the other hand, take me, I go to work and, miraculously, I
| don't feel being "crushed" by any adderall-abusers. I know many
| people who commit a lot more than me, I know many CEOs or
| managers decade younger than me, my old roommates are now
| tenured professors at respectable universities, and you got me
| wonder just now, maybe I just have a blind spot and they _are_
| "crushing" me day by day somehow, going in circles while firing
| their machine guns at me. Who knows? I sure don't feel it in
| any way, they all seem really decent folks, so maybe it turns
| that ignorance is bliss after all, no?
|
| I struggle to even image how would that be done, but I have
| some ideas. Maybe if I cared about certifications, or went
| extensively to every meetup, or tried to lead a community, or
| bragged about my salary, maybe then I would have opened a hatch
| to get signals from those people. I don't, so I won't.
|
| Maybe it has something to do with me keeping all too many
| hobbies (I'm thinking about dropping two or three of them
| actually, and that includes hn) plus my kids?
| softcactus wrote:
| Maybe I have a holistic view but I think the adderall-popping
| hypothetical person is only good at churning out lines of code.
|
| The Kayaker is building experiences and growing as a person,
| and probably allowing their subconscious to solve the difficult
| problems while they are consciously enjoying nature. I think
| that having a diverse set of experiences ultimately makes you a
| better problem-solver since you can apply abstract concepts
| from one domain to another. From an entrepreneurial
| perspective, you can see a need within one of your hobbies that
| needs to be fulfilled, and apply your technical skills to it.
| Meanwhile the adderall person has churned out 1000 lines of
| business logic for their employer.
|
| There is obviously more nuance to it than that, but the most
| intelligent people I have met were all incredibly well-rounded.
| I have also met people who probably had the potential to be
| equally as intelligent, but their laser focus on a single
| subject stunted their growth and they can only talk
| about/entertain ideas within their super specific niche. They
| become boring and unable to work with others.
| jenny91 wrote:
| There are certainly a lot of single-minded individuals who
| think just churning out lines of business logic will get them
| ahead, and I think most would agree that doesn't work in the
| long run.
|
| But there is also that crowd of people who know that a more
| holistic set of experiences helps them get ahead in their
| career.
|
| > Kayaker is ... allowing their subconscious to solve the
| difficult problems while they are consciously enjoying nature
|
| To an extent taking your mind off a problem and mulling over
| it helps. But there's no subconscious doing the work, in the
| end spending the weekend thinking about a problem with a few
| breaks will definitely make more progress than a weekend
| Kayaking and not thinking about work.
| paulsutter wrote:
| Focusing 100% on work for a few years, then taking one of two
| years off is an alternative I'd recommend. Focus brings huge
| benefits to both work and not-work
| samsolomon wrote:
| I spent a good part of my 20s trying to be as productive as
| possible. I always had projects that I was working on and wasn't
| particularly satisfied with what I was doing for a living. I felt
| like I always needed to be pushing myself--learn something new,
| get better at something I know.
|
| I don't regret it at all. I'm in an excellent position today
| because of how hard I pushed myself. Maybe there's a bit of
| difference because most of my productive drive was used outside
| of work.
|
| Burnout is terrible. At the same time, you won't get to where you
| want to be in life without effort.
| ekianjo wrote:
| What's this trend about prefixing every word by "toxic" nowadays,
| to characterize how too much of a thing can be bad? In the past
| we used to have common sense... So alcoholics now should be
| described as "toxic drinkers" too?
| codegladiator wrote:
| pretty sure that is called 'toxic prefixing'.
| moeris wrote:
| What's with the trend of suffixing every world with "-oholic"
| then-a-days, to characterize how too much of a thing can be
| bad?
|
| Language changes. We used to make up words like "shopaholic".
| Now we might say "toxic consumerism" if we didn't already have
| a word for it. Different forms that mean the same thing; no
| need to get worked up over it.
| layer8 wrote:
| I had a similar reaction at first, but thinking about it it
| actually makes sense here, because the productivity urge
| becomes toxic to the person in question. (In a slightly
| different spin, the person may also have become intoxicated by
| productivity.) My initial reaction is really only due to the
| prevalence of the word "toxic" in modern discourse, and not
| because the traditional meaning wouldn't fit here.
| damowangcy wrote:
| The 3x culture is the culprit, everything needs to be fast,
| there's so many things to do, so many dramas to binge, so many
| trends to chase, so many methods to get things done.
|
| In the end, small wins become a curse, win big or go home and
| watch YouTube videos about productivity, on 3x.
| rlaksana wrote:
| wow i am 5 out of 5. thanks for sharing. i need to a better daily
| work habit.
| throwaway98797 wrote:
| we need meaning in a meaningless world
|
| net worth is nice
|
| family is nice
|
| health is nice
|
| it all turns to dust
|
| act accordingly
|
| this too shall pass
| nunodonato wrote:
| This is why I think GTD is still the best out there. If you go
| deep into it, you will get it how GTD is not really about
| gettings things done, but living your life to the max (whatever
| that means to you).
| Terry_Roll wrote:
| I dont think he covers how to switch creativity on and off on
| demand, & most entities are reactionary to events, some of them
| are beyond their control, even Govt's.
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| I'm sure toxic productivity is a problem. I'm sure over-
| exercising is also a problem for some people who end up injuring
| themselves.
|
| But lets face it, most of us have the opposite problem.
| Sammi wrote:
| Toxic Productivity as the article defines is isn't "working too
| much" or "being too productive". It is the feeling that should
| should try far too much to be more productive all the time. The
| culture that celebrates productivity above life meaning and
| mental health.
| emblaegh wrote:
| > Are You Suffering from Toxic Productivity?
|
| Yes, even small amounts of productivity are extremely toxic to
| me.
| rfrey wrote:
| Since taking up management, I've taken increasingly tiny,
| dilute concentrations of productivity. I believe my work
| "remembers" the productivity even though the dose is too small
| to detect, and helps my body and mind to resist it when it is
| encountered in higher levels.
|
| This has granted me immunity.
| belter wrote:
| I think it's called autoerotic procrastination.
| danuker wrote:
| There's no escape, I can't wait
|
| I need a hit, baby, give me it
| pcthrowaway wrote:
| That just sounds like procrasturbation with extra steps
| zivkovicp wrote:
| shnobloos22 wrote:
| Toxic productivity is when compensation doesn't directly scale
| with the effort.
| nasretdinov wrote:
| It can be even more daunting for a person if they're paid well
| and feel like that because of it they have to produce even more
| results, or otherwise they're paid unfairly, which compounds
| stress. So it can go both ways.
| shnobloos22 wrote:
| Compensation at 40 hours should already be fair.
|
| Anything above 40 hours should scale on top of base - and not
| in a linear fashion.
|
| Otherwise that is simply a toxic productivity. Working hard
| so that someone else could get an extra ski holiday (or
| whatever).
| sorenn111 wrote:
| This is clearly propaganda from someone trying to get promoted in
| front of me....
| PeterStuer wrote:
| Toxic productivity, including its negative effects, is idolized
| by society, at least in many western countries.
| cy_overlord wrote:
| Stay away from social media for a while helps too.
| no-dr-onboard wrote:
| Growing weary of these "give yourself more grace" articles tbh.
|
| > 1. Untangle your self-worth and your work
|
| I think a lot of people propose to themselves static mindsets
| about how they currently "feel". You might currently feel that
| your self worth and your work are conflated into one thing, and
| that can be motivating, but it won't last forever. So what do you
| do knowing that what you're feeling won't last forever? You ride
| it out and experience the highs/lows of the feeling as it
| transpires as there is a good chance that the "feeling" will
| evaporate much sooner than you expect.
|
| Anecdote: For the first couple years of my career I _did_ have
| conflated feelings of self worth and work. My work _was_ my life
| for a couple years, and you know what? I don 't regret it. It
| helped establish a good pace, set me leagues apart from my
| colleagues in terms of experience and knowledge, and landed me
| far beyond where I thought I could be after graduating. Were
| there downsides? Absolutely. Would I do anything differently? No,
| because there would be downsides there too and in the set of all
| possible options, I think I chose the best one.
|
| There is nothing wrong with trying hard.
|
| There is nothing wrong with trying hard for long periods of time.
|
| There is nothing wrong with experiencing burnout.
|
| There is nothing wrong with working to overcome burnout.
|
| These attitudes have negative consequences. Trying to avoid them
| also has negative consequences. You're going to experience
| negative consequences, and that's okay.
| dzink wrote:
| I have more than one kid and their personalities are a world
| different. One, since she was a baby, had the urgency to do
| things quickly and learn how to do more at all times. She would
| operate like she is on borrowed time since as long as she could
| move. She would ask for something once and go do it herself.
| Bring everyone else's shoes after getting ready, while my son is
| still putting his pants etc. I was the same way. Growing up I had
| this feeling every second is precious. My mind can move fast and
| solve tough problems and invent and I didn't want to waste it as
| time is precious. This urgency varies with time and varies in
| format. When we had babies, I would absolutely focus and enjoy
| every moment with them, because those are short and never come
| back either. And even so, my mind would come up with ideas, while
| holding a little one, and I would jot those down writing or
| dictating on my phone whenever necessary.
|
| Yes, there is also toxic workaholism - where financial pressures,
| peer pressure and other reasons cause people to be lost in the
| work and burnout. The biggest reasons for burnout in my book is
| not working too much, but working where the volume of work
| doesn't match the reward, or where you ignore sleep depravation
| and don't pay off sleep debt (not eating enough while working may
| lead to that as well). So if you are lucky enough to get people
| who are born machines of productivity, make sure you compensate
| them well so they don't burn out and ensure they get adequate
| sleep. It pays pack quickly.
| deathanatos wrote:
| > _Create a simple end-of-workday routine (like reviewing your
| calendar for the next day and clearing all of those used coffee
| mugs from your desk) to signal to your brain that it's time to
| switch out of "work mode."_
|
| Funny, that's basically exactly my routine.
|
| The problem is the time at which I do it.
| honduras wrote:
| I had colleague that could be described in such way. Working with
| him was difficult and He was handed bs tasks just so others could
| focus on their own work. I'd say that trying to be extremely
| productive in some large companies won't lead to promotion or
| appreciation.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| _> Duracell Bunny_
|
| Energizer Bunny.
| papito wrote:
| Got arrested. Charged with battery.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I'm sorry that got downvoted. It was a funny joke.
| glandium wrote:
| Duracell also has (had?) a bunny.
| xbar wrote:
| Yes. And it's interesting to note how successfully the
| Energizer brand has co-opted it such that when seening
| "Duracell Bunny", an HN poster wants to "fix it."
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Well, to be fair, the author of the article is (likely) too
| young to have remembered the original Duracell Bunny (I'm
| 60, and barely remembered it, myself), and almost certainly
| meant the Energizer Bunny, since that is the conventional
| idiom, these days.
|
| So...be nice. I could have worded my "correction" better
| _(e.g. "Did the author mean the Energizer Bunny?")_, or,
| better still, not have made the comment in the first place
| (it wasn't necessary, and I admit that. I probably won't do
| it again). I did correct myself, upvoted the HN user that
| corrected me, and, as a general rule, I do not take
| opportunities to launch unprovoked slaps at HN users that I
| don't know.
|
| I've learned that it's generally a bad idea to initiate
| relationships with attacks. There's no upside.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| You are correct. TIL:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duracell_Bunny
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Actually, I just remembered the Duracell bunny, because the
| Energizer Bunny was created to make fun of it. I remember
| its debut ad.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiFQsxGUQOI
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