[HN Gopher] Faced with scooter seizures, Bird pays property tax ...
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Faced with scooter seizures, Bird pays property tax bill months
late
Author : reaperducer
Score : 32 points
Date : 2022-06-08 20:56 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.kut.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.kut.org)
| executive wrote:
| Did not see a single upright scooter in Austin this weekend.
| Littered all over the sidewalk. Must suck for the blind.
| loeg wrote:
| I wonder who evaluates how much those scooters are "worth." Like,
| where does the $6 million figure come from? As the tax office
| points out, how would you even sell $149k in rental scooters? Who
| is the market for seized Bird scooters?
| s0rce wrote:
| If they are relatively cheap and chargers are available I'm
| sure there is a market, people use privately owned electric
| scooters for transport.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| The market absolutely exists. They'd sell out within a week.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _Who is the market for seized Bird scooters?_
|
| In my neighborhood, every night at 7pm a few people set up
| tables on corners and in parking lots with hand-written
| cardboard signs "renting" out dozens of stolen, repainted
| scooters from these companies.
|
| The rate is $20/hour. Cash and Venmo only.
|
| Considering that the scooters are stolen to begin with, I don't
| think they care if they get returned or not, as their
| investment is pretty much $10 for a magic marker and a bucket
| of house paint.
| dopidopHN wrote:
| What prevent there users to never return?
| reaperducer wrote:
| Nothing at all. That's why I wrote, "I don't think they
| care if they get returned or not, as their investment is
| pretty much $10 for a magic marker and a bucket of house
| paint."
| teeeg wrote:
| Can we start charging car owners 2.5% when they leave their
| personal property on public streets
| kccqzy wrote:
| In California the registration fees you pay every year already
| includes personal personal taxes. (That's the reason why you
| can deduct that portion of registration fees in SALT.)
| colechristensen wrote:
| My car is according to the state worth $0, but I still pay a
| sizable registration fee and gas taxes.
| grouchomarx wrote:
| assuming you're in ca, $200/year for a tag and $0.50/gallon
| is not sizable
| colechristensen wrote:
| If you're driving in CA with an average car and average
| number of miles, gas taxes will be another $400 per year
| (and it's $0.68 per gallon not $0.5)
|
| On top of that if you bought an average priced car, the
| 7.5% sales tax would be another one time $4000 charge
|
| Is $4000 + $600 per year on average not sizable?
| ahahahahah wrote:
| Isn't it? An average car gets ~25mpg and travels ~14,000
| miles per year. That then adds up to a total of $480. Hard
| to estimate the average value of a car on the road, the
| average used car sales price is probably a good proxy
| (misses some value for first-owner cars, overvalues last-
| owner cars) which gives $28000 (2021 was likely abnormally
| high and this'll actually drop some, but still). So then,
| you're talking 1.7% when parent was asking for 2.5%. I
| wouldn't call that "not sizable".
| hexo wrote:
| Car owners are already way too over-charged with various taxes.
| At least here, in our country.
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| Auto infrastructure takes up 52% of cities like Houston.
|
| If autos were taxed their fair share - they should be taxed
| more than Real Estate - yet property taxes are a much larger
| portion of municipal revenues...
| ThunderSizzle wrote:
| Property taxes also go to infrastructure to access the
| property.
|
| With modern zoning laws, that means car infrastructure.
| milkytron wrote:
| What makes you think that? Are the fees excessive for the
| amount of infrastructure they require and negative
| externalities they cause?
| namecheapTA wrote:
| The fact that they are basically taxes not tied to income
| is pretty annoying. If you're barely scraping by, the state
| should not be taxing you as heavily on a gallon of gasoline
| as a doctor that barely blinks as they fill up their
| Sclass.
| hexo wrote:
| Yes, the fees are way too excessive. Most of them also
| disappear no one knows where.
| selectodude wrote:
| You'll need to elaborate so I can refute that point by point.
| aranchelk wrote:
| I want that written on a t-shirt.
| rozap wrote:
| You got yourself a deal. That's way cheaper than it is
| currently.
| postalrat wrote:
| Sounds like a deal. I'm pretty sure I'm paying a lot more than
| that every year.
| hackernewds wrote:
| And if you leave it longer, someone might hijack it and hold
| it hostage for towing fees. Why shouldn't commercial scooters
| be subject to the same?
| arthurcolle wrote:
| because electric scooters have a better carbon footprint
| compared to ICE vehicles and most cities have failed to
| implement reasonable public transportation therefore
| solutions like the scooters should be encouraged, not
| discouraged.
| tomcam wrote:
| What's your thought about the random distribution of
| scooters in sidewalks that visually impaired or
| wheelchair-bound people are trying to navigate?
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| Or the one that knocked me out right onto the street, in
| front of oncoming traffic and caused six stitches on my
| face?
| mirntyfirty wrote:
| These scooters are not part of any solution, but rather
| the result of a successful brainstorming session to
| determine what money-losing idea can receive investment
| money. In theory, they are a practical way to travel 0-3
| miles while overpaying, not being able to bring much, and
| introducing high risk of personal injury. Bicycles fit
| these use-cases much better.
| bagels wrote:
| 2.5% of the value of the vehicle? Last time I checked, I paid
| 9.x% sales tax + >1% per year in registration taxes, and who
| knows how much in fuel or electricity taxes.
| thawaya3113 wrote:
| I'm pretty sure anyone buying a scooter would also be paying
| sales tax, plus taxes on fuel and electricity.
|
| The only difference is a property tax of 2.5% assessed every
| year.
|
| That being said, I would be surprised if this 2.5% property
| tax didn't apply to car rental companies cars as well.
| colechristensen wrote:
| Fuel is taxed explicitly to fund roads.
|
| Property tax likewise to pay for roads and how they're
| used.
|
| Electricity taxes don't go to fund roads or sidewalks,
| sales tax is likewise not for that.
| SllX wrote:
| Y'know, could probably replace metered parking, public
| (municipal-owned) garage fees and parking permits with this.
|
| I think we might have a deal.
| corrral wrote:
| I don't get why these aren't free-for-all. You abandon property
| on the sidewalk, seems like littering to me at best (something
| worse if you're doing it as part of some coordinated effort or
| plan). In most jurisdictions, you lose your claim to trash once
| it's discarded. So....
| henryfjordan wrote:
| The scooters were never abandoned. They had GPS and a whole
| network of people to service them. At best they were
| "mislaid". See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost,_mislaid,_a
| nd_abandoned_p...
|
| Dumping scooters in the street is much more akin to a public
| nuisance if you want to get litigious.
| s0rce wrote:
| I'd argue its a public good, its an alternate mode of
| transport that is very useful and reduces the number of car
| trips and their associated negative externalities.
| Certainly scooters take up less space than parked cars
| which seem to have been grandfathered in and getting rid of
| parking is fiercely opposed.
| dangus wrote:
| Bicycles are safer:
|
| https://newatlas.com/urban-transport/study-e-scooters-
| injury...
|
| Bicycles and even some buses are more environmentally
| friendly:
|
| https://news.ncsu.edu/2019/08/impact-of-e-scooters/
|
| Almost half of the trips are replacing healthier and
| safer walking trips:
|
| https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2021-07-31/e-scooter
| s-r...
|
| I haven't even mentioned the rental prices, which are
| crazy high compared to a public bus ride.
|
| On top of that, scooters left on sidewalks are ugly and
| invade public space.
|
| I'm fine with people using scooters but they should have
| to own and take care of them, and if scooter sharing
| companies are operating they should be required to ensure
| they are left in proper places or perhaps in designated
| docks. They shouldn't be effectively stealing public land
| for their for-profit service.
| corrral wrote:
| > I'm fine with people using scooters but they should
| have to own and take care of them, and if scooter sharing
| companies are operating they should be required to ensure
| they are left in proper places or perhaps in designated
| docks. They shouldn't be effectively stealing public land
| for their for-profit service.
|
| Exactly this. If they'd paid for land to install
| racks/docks and taken measures to ensure the scooters
| ended up there, or partnered with local governments to
| create same (as in municipal bike rental racks) I'd have
| no problem with it. It's completely bizarre to me that
| it's fine to leave your crap all over the public sidewalk
| as long as you're a company with a scheme to make money
| off it.
| ThunderSizzle wrote:
| Throwing something on the curb is the same as abandoning
| it, at least at most cities I've been in. Completely fair
| game.
|
| Just because it has GPS in it doesn't mean it wasn't
| abandoned
| corrral wrote:
| How are people to know this? Stickers on them, sure, but
| anyone can attach a sticker saying anything on whatever
| they like, so how legitimate is that? Can I just toss all
| kinds of shit on the sidewalk if I attach a sticker first
| saying that it's cool and other people shouldn't mess with
| it? If they do mess with it, is that theft or vandalism?
| Doesn't seem like it _ought_ to be. Seems more like I ought
| to have a fine coming my way, regardless of what happens to
| the junk I left lying around or what kinds of words I put
| on it first.
|
| I'd not have known WTF these were when they showed up in my
| city, if not for reading HN. They _look like_ a company
| intentionally littering all over public spaces.
| tomcam wrote:
| When I first started started reading HN well over a decade ago I
| knew to expect some pretty far-reaching topics. I have never been
| disappointed in that regard. However, I am humble enough to admit
| I never expected to see the phrase "scooter seizures" in an HN
| headline.
| xn wrote:
| For those of us not from Texas, this article informs us that
| Travis County, which covers Austin, charges ~2.5% annual property
| tax on personal property owned by businesses.
|
| Bird owns personal property (scooters) worth about $6M in Travis
| County.
| Justin_K wrote:
| This is a pretty standard government shakedown, done
| nationwide. Small businesses get hit with assessments annually
| on "property" values. Businesses with expensive machinery get
| hit really hard.
|
| If the assessor is not permitted inside a location, the
| assessor will assign an estimated value of property (which is
| usually higher than actual). Then, the business must go through
| an audit to show what property / equipment exists at their
| locations.
|
| One time, L.A. county looked to go as far as taxing taxing
| satellites orbiting in space, because the owners were based in
| the county. https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1006-los-
| angeles-plan... I don't believe this passed though.
|
| Businesses get hit with endless fees and taxes from the gov :(
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| > Businesses get hit with endless fees and taxes from the gov
| :(
|
| So do people.
|
| Show me businesses being taxed > 40% of revenue.
| Justin_K wrote:
| I don't know where you came up with that number or what
| kind of point you're trying to make, so I don't have any
| examples for you. I'm merely referring to the myriad of
| taxes and fees you have to stay on top of as a business.
| edmundsauto wrote:
| Individuals' income taxes.
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| Self-employed are technically businesses. So every self-
| employed in Germany. Progressive rate but ends up at 42%.
| tomcam wrote:
| Ah, thank you very much
| bagels wrote:
| That's wild. They want to punish businesses that make physical
| things?
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| Things that a business makes in order to sell are not
| 'business property', and not (in most places) subject to
| business property taxes.
|
| But things a business uses to run its own business (e.g.
| laptops) are.
| wfhordie wrote:
| Bird doesn't make the scooters, they just allow them to sit
| on the sidewalk clogging the pedestrian space and making life
| miserable for wheelchair users.
| arthurcolle wrote:
| yeah that seems insane
| SllX wrote:
| Personal property taxes/business property taxes are fairly
| common.
|
| If you ever want to pull your hair out, look at how BPOL (a
| different type of tax) is charged in Virginia, and more than
| that, which debt it is servicing.
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| For reference, the equivalent tax rate in SF is 1.1801%
| csours wrote:
| No state taxes in Texas, so local jurisdictions that want to
| provide services have higher fees and taxes. (oversimplified)
| olliej wrote:
| Sounds like Bird was trying to Disrupt property taxes.
|
| (Seriously why do companies like this not just pay their bills)
| thawaya3113 wrote:
| Almost all of these companies have a single business model.
| Regulation arbitrage.
|
| They break laws and regulations and then count on either having
| those changed in hindsight or having a valuation as a result of
| breaking those laws and regulations that is much greater than
| the fine they will negotiate down later anyways.
|
| That's the Uber model. Along with passing on unwitting costs to
| their employees, and not paying them enough because they call
| them gig workers.
| [deleted]
| rodgerd wrote:
| Because it's worked well for Amazon (ignore sales taxes), Uber
| (ignore... everything), AirBNB (ditto), and a long list of
| other "existing thing, but on a computer" businesses.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| "Move fast and don't pay taxes" or something. I think that's
| how the startup mantra goes.
|
| Maybe it was "Break laws and avoid jail".. no hm...
| londons_explore wrote:
| > Travis County's tax office has collected about 99% of 2021
| property taxes
|
| I'm impressed that a government agency publishes tax collection
| rates.
|
| I'm also impressed that they are so high - I was imagining that
| they'd only manage to collect ~80% after fraud, bankruptcies,
| missing/wrong property data, people uncontactable/missing/dead,
| etc.
| Scene_Cast2 wrote:
| I also wonder if the number is 99% of dollars or 99% of
| entities.
| bombcar wrote:
| I suspect it's 99% of dollars because property tax on houses
| is really easy to track down, but some other property taxes
| would be more fluid (especially if "off the books" in some
| matter).
| brianwawok wrote:
| As long as home values are rising, it's real easy.
|
| Pay up, or forclose and sell.
| toddm wrote:
| Travis County - and all counties in Texas - makes their
| property tax rates, appraisals, and other germane information
| public by default.
|
| For Travis County, the information is at traviscad.org ("cad" =
| "County Appraisal District"); for Williamson County, wcad.org;
| and so on with variations on county name.
|
| As to the 99% rate: most people are paying a combined escrowed
| property tax + mortgage combo, so I'm not surprised at such a
| high number - no tax collected means you've got bigger
| problems.
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