[HN Gopher] The Human Toll of Fallout 76's Disastrous Launch
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       The Human Toll of Fallout 76's Disastrous Launch
        
       Author : danso
       Score  : 50 points
       Date   : 2022-06-08 19:52 UTC (3 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (kotaku.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (kotaku.com)
        
       | wly_cdgr wrote:
       | It's really a testament to how soul crushingly boring working in
       | non-games tech is that people keep eagerly volunteering to be
       | abused exploited and disrespected like this (at not even one of
       | the very best game companies, just a mid-high tier one!) rather
       | than work a Series C startup making 2-3x with good WLB
        
       | nonrandomstring wrote:
       | I guess this relates to another current thread [1].
       | 
       | The games industry is it's own weird universe of madness at quite
       | another level.
       | 
       | I once had business with a large AAA house in Cambridge England,
       | in a big glass corporate headquarters. When I visited I was
       | greeted by an attractive, kind of gothy/emo young lady who had
       | visible self-harm marks. A senior person turned up and there was
       | a really weird dynamic. She was obviously not supposed to have
       | met me. The guy gave her a look, and her reaction was something
       | that stank of domestic violence situations. There was something
       | abusive and creepy going on that really threw me off balance.
       | This was at least 5 or 10 years before the gamergate and metoo
       | stuff.
       | 
       | [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31664203
        
       | mysterydip wrote:
       | "Press Reset" by Jason Schreier has many examples of this cycle:
       | crunch, layoff, repeat at next company (or go indie, or exit the
       | industry). In many cases, the people responsible for the
       | decisions are insulated from the fallout (no pun intended).
        
       | aftergibson wrote:
       | I went to several Universities to interview undergraduates for a
       | paid summer internship for our small SAAS startup (I was barely
       | out of college myself). A huge percentage of technical students
       | were hoping for internships at video game companies, many hoping
       | to start with testing. So no wonder video games companies feel
       | grinding through QA engineers it's a viable strategy.
       | 
       | All we can really do is warn the younger generation to steer
       | clear of the video games industry even if video games are a
       | passion. You'd think with such a terrible reputation they'd be
       | struggling for hires, but there's always fresh blood to grind
       | into the ground.
        
       | pipeline_peak wrote:
       | I've heard so many horror stories in the game industry about
       | being underpaid and sleeping under desks.
       | 
       | I don't understand how anyone would want to be such a piece of a
       | cog of a wheel just because they love games. You aren't Shigeru
       | Miyamoto, you don't get to make creative decisions. You'd make
       | twice as much coding boring business logic, it's not "cool", but
       | you get to sleep at home.
       | 
       | Is it just me or does being given pizza as an adult feel
       | insulting. I get it, I'm a gamer so I obviously don't care about
       | healthy choices.
        
         | ajb wrote:
         | I visited a place one where the schtick was to get new
         | employees to make a paint print of their hand on the wall like
         | a primary school kids. I thought, this place infantilises its
         | employees, I will never work here.
         | 
         | This comes about because companies see 'culture' as a means of
         | manipulating their employees. It works because long-childhood
         | tokens are a status symbol - poor people need to grow up
         | quickly and demonstrate that they are compliant by wearing
         | suits or other uniforms, middle class show that they can afford
         | long education by retaining the signifiers of childhood. But
         | no-one does this consciously, so people are susceptable to
         | being 'rewarded' by these cheap signifiers instead of real
         | value
        
         | spread_love wrote:
         | > does being given pizza as an adult feel insulting
         | 
         | Yes! Give me better healthcare! I don't care about snacks and
         | coffee. If I was healthy I could afford these things myself.
         | 
         | Even worse, using it as bait to return to office. "We're having
         | a pizza party in the office today!" (Now a Waffle Party I might
         | come in for)
        
         | lapetitejort wrote:
         | > Is it just me or does being given pizza as an adult feel
         | insulting. I get it, I'm a gamer so I obviously don't care
         | about healthy choices.
         | 
         | This is how I know I'm old. Instead of giving me the cheapest
         | viable dinner possible, why not spring for something more
         | tasty, healthy, and costly? Pizza is the free meal equivalent
         | of minimum wage. If possible, they'd offer free off-brand
         | animal crackers to everyone crunching.
        
         | Tiktaalik wrote:
         | First off sleeping under desks is a project management failure
         | and not representative of the games industry. Heaps of people
         | making games that haven't worked a day of overtime for years
         | and years.
         | 
         | But as you say, boring business logic is boring, so no surprise
         | that people would be interested in games for that reason alone,
         | but more than that, game programming isn't the same sort of
         | work as other programming. Are there jobs for graphics
         | programmers working on some business spreadsheet software
         | company? If you want to do graphics programming you need to
         | work in an industry that needs graphics programmers.
         | 
         | Doesn't really matter that you're not the Miyamoto. There's
         | lots of programmers in leadership roles solving hard and
         | interesting problems that don't exist in other sorts of
         | business software.
        
         | TrackerFF wrote:
         | ...and the animation industry
         | 
         | ...and the movie industry
         | 
         | ...and the music industry
         | 
         | ...and the, well - we could go on like this forever. If it's
         | creative work, people will endure all kinds of sh!t in order to
         | work on the stuff they love.
        
           | yieldcrv wrote:
           | stuff they ^ _think_ they love.
           | 
           | most people don't have an objective view of the whole market
           | of things they can exchange for, its a compromise of what we
           | are exposed to and what makes enough money
           | 
           | then there is a slight gradient containing people that don't
           | care for a variety of reasons, such as some passive income or
           | other financial security
        
           | kodah wrote:
           | I'd be willing to say the wider tech industry isn't much
           | better, it's just one degree less shady and disgusting.
        
             | the_lonely_road wrote:
             | And about 300,000 degrees more lucrative.
        
         | lukewrites wrote:
         | > You'd make twice as much coding boring business logic, it's
         | not "cool", but you get to sleep at home.
         | 
         | And, possibly just as importantly, you'll have time for gaming!
        
           | whateveracct wrote:
           | Or even gamedev!
        
             | [deleted]
        
         | googlryas wrote:
         | Anecdotal, but everyone that I can recall from my uni's CS
         | cohort who used video games as motivation to learn CS were
         | ultimately bad or middling programmers, who were basically only
         | employable by these game companies that pay crummy wages with
         | bad work culture.
         | 
         | It makes sense somewhat - the skills and talents for, say,
         | racing cars has almost nothing to do with the skills or talent
         | to design and construct an engine.
        
           | urthor wrote:
           | My experience is the opposite.
           | 
           | I've seen many extraordinarily talented people who got into
           | this field originally because of the dream.
        
           | kaladin-jasnah wrote:
           | The impression I get from video game hackers (eg. finding
           | glitches for speedrunning) are that they are quite talented,
           | and console hackers as well (finding that PS5 jailbreak
           | definitely requires skill) so I'm not sure if it's the best
           | generalization.
        
           | friedman23 wrote:
           | I think that would be a bad generalization. Maybe people
           | obsessed enough with video games that you find out that's why
           | they are learning CS are bad coders?
        
         | jeromegv wrote:
         | How would they know? They spent the last 10 years playing video
         | games, they literally worship those companies. It's still not
         | widespread enough as knowledge that those employers are
         | literally all shit. And if that's your first job, how would you
         | know it's better somewhere else? Got to learn the hard way.
        
       | snickerer wrote:
       | Listen, kids, if someone tells you to do overtime: run!
       | 
       | You-must-do-overtime is a management fail and a strong indicator
       | for bad leading.
        
       | danso wrote:
       | I had some hope that Microsoft's purchase would somehow change
       | things (not that Microsoft is necessarily more benevolent, but
       | maybe could realign the team's priorities and politics), but the
       | (pure) speculation suggests "no":
       | 
       | > _Bethesda officially became a part of Xbox Game Studios on
       | March 9, 2021, which placed Fallout 76 under Microsoft's
       | stewardship. When asked whether or not the acquisition had
       | improved the internal work culture within Bethesda, several
       | sources offered lukewarm responses._
       | 
       | > _One source suggested that Microsoft's emphasis on a "hands-
       | off" culture toward its studios meant that the new owners trusted
       | Bethesda to take care of its own problems. Sources at Undead Labs
       | also mentioned that Microsoft had a "hands-off" policy, which
       | they claimed had "allowed dysfunction to fester" at their
       | studio._
       | 
       | No quality of game could justify the senseless anti-human
       | mentality and processes described. But the fact that Fallout 76
       | was just such an abysmal and hated release just increases my
       | contempt for Bethesda. Not seeing the moral value in treating
       | their employees ethically is bad enough; not even having the cold
       | business sense to see how it obviously affects their bottom line
       | is just pathetic:
       | 
       | > _Some sources noted that the project drove an exodus of senior
       | developers who had worked on some of Bethesda's most prolific
       | titles. Many developers developed physical health issues, such as
       | tinnitus and back pain. One source said it "wasn't uncommon" for
       | artists to have wrist braces. Senior staff who'd remained loyal
       | to the company for 20 years finally found their reason to quit.
       | Some had been around since Fallout 3 and Skyrim. Fallout 76 was
       | their final breaking point._
        
         | sourthyme wrote:
         | This is sick. What does anyone learn doing by working like
         | this? Is anyone gaining experience from this? It just feels
         | like people are ground down so they can't physically work
         | anymore.
        
           | fnimick wrote:
           | The people running the show see no benefit from their team
           | members "learning" or "gaining experience". If they ship the
           | game and are so ground down they're burned out and
           | ineffective, that's a problem for the next guy; the manager
           | who got the game shipped by burning out the team got a huge
           | bonus and has leveraged it into a shiny position somewhere
           | else by the time any of the consequences rear their heads.
           | IME this type of short-term thinking inevitably infects most
           | companies, unless there is a very strong culture to combat
           | it.
        
       | ansible wrote:
       | Why are things so bad in the games industry? As compared to other
       | IT / programming fields?
        
         | tmp_anon_22 wrote:
         | * very strict deadlines decided by publishers years in advance
         | 
         | * incredible passion making the workforce exploitable and more
         | tolerant of abuse
         | 
         | * explosive revenue growth bringing in scammers, hucksters, and
         | MBAs
         | 
         | * incredible passion from consumers who will buy the same game
         | over and over
         | 
         | * the advent of gambling in the form of microtransactions
         | 
         | * the consolidation of the industry to a handful of big
         | publishers
         | 
         | * incredible technical complexity
         | 
         | * exclusive rights on media like star wars or sports like
         | basketball giving some publishers a complete monopoly in some
         | cases
        
           | extrememacaroni wrote:
           | +1 for "incredible passion from consumers". I've never seen a
           | mass of customers so easy to fool as gamers are. Imagine a
           | washing machine company releasing broken products, and the
           | average joe going "yup, I really want another washing machine
           | from this company after seeing this ad which showed something
           | I like, even though the last time I bought some they were
           | barely working and only half washed my clothes, please take
           | my money".
           | 
           | If bethesda/microsoft announced Fallout New Vegas 2, everyone
           | would lose their shit and preorder instantly.
           | 
           | Also it disgusts me how happy everyone seems when a company
           | announces that they won't do microtransactions. If the
           | company has a history of keeping promises and releasing games
           | without mtx, sure, it's warranted. But otherwise? Are you an
           | idiot? They'll update the game half a year after you and the
           | other fools bought the game and introduce microtransactions
           | then. I wish there were laws that clearly defined what
           | monetization in a game means and forbade developers from
           | changing monetization schemes during the lifetime of a game,
           | I just can't trust cloud-enabled games nowadays that promise
           | a non-mtx non-p2w experience. It's worthless promises if you
           | can change your mind down the line after I invested time and
           | maybe money in your game. First get the money from the gamers
           | who think they're really smart for "supporting games with
           | fair monetization schemes", then when they're exhausted
           | introduce mtx and go after the whales for the big bucks.
           | 
           | Fuck this industry, you don't even know what kind of product
           | you're buying anymore. People waiting for "a full review of
           | Diablo Immor(t)al to figure out how much money you need to
           | spend to get a good build" - what's the point? By the time
           | the review is out blizzard probably already changed the
           | sliders and everything's different. Although from what I hear
           | about the game, the only way they could change them at this
           | point would make the game better, so there's that. $100k
           | (that's one.hundred.thousand.dollars.) to get a fully
           | equipped build. Jesus christ. Go back in time to when Diablo
           | 2 is released and tell the gamers that soon they'll have to
           | pay one hundred. thousand. dollars. to get a fully equipped
           | build in the latest Diablo. They'll just cry and jump out the
           | window. An even sadder thing is if you told them the latest
           | Diablo will be a mobile game, they'd think "what? you can
           | play Diablo anywhere like with a Gameboy? That's freaking
           | amazing dude!" ugh. But you need to tell them this before
           | telling them about having to choose between a nice house and
           | a cool armor for their barbarian, burst that bubble properly.
           | 
           | I hate this. My comment here is the incredible passion from
           | consumers, you can see it live now, you're welcome.
           | 
           | The incredible passion from developers is also me still being
           | interested and working on gamedev crap even though I wish I
           | could just turn back time instead.
        
           | Apocryphon wrote:
           | Many of the problems and potential of abuse as present in the
           | entertainment industry, with none of the organizing to
           | protect workers.
        
             | walrus01 wrote:
             | isn't this literally supposed to be why screenwriters,
             | actors and others are unionized in the hollywood system?
             | and all the behind the camera IATSE members.
        
               | mort96 wrote:
               | Yeah, and the exact same reason why the lack of
               | unionization in VFX is such a large problem.
               | 
               | Unions work.
        
         | Pet_Ant wrote:
         | Because a lot people want to work for games so there is high
         | supply of willing talent. You can run them ragged and then
         | replace as needed.
        
           | neaden wrote:
           | At the end of the day basically all jobs little kids dream
           | about (actor, doctor, astronaut, making video games) are
           | either really hard to get into (like doctor) or pay very
           | poorly for the majority of people (like actor and making
           | video games).
        
             | exdsq wrote:
             | Video game devs aren't paid 'very poorly', they're still
             | comfortably above a countries median, they're just lower
             | than roles requiring a similar skill. My friend is a game
             | dev at Epic and loves it, FWIW. He doesn't give a shit
             | about money if he can pay his mortgage, cover his wife and
             | child, splash on toys, and save a bit.
        
           | tmp_anon_22 wrote:
           | > You can run them ragged and then replace as needed.
           | 
           | Until you can't. A good case study is Dice Stockholm, perhaps
           | best known for their stewardship of the Battlefield
           | franchise. They butchered the launch of two titles in a row
           | and lost much of their senior staff.
           | 
           | FWIW BFV became a good game. But the churn BFV (+Firestorm
           | Battle Royale mode) caused has taken BF 2042 to a new low.
        
           | ajmurmann wrote:
           | IMO this is true for every field that has a similar draw.
           | Working on anything that's perceived as "fun" or for the
           | greater good will allow for lower comp and worse working
           | conditions. I believe that that's also a factor why teachers
           | in the US can be so underpaid and treated badly and why Musk
           | gets away with some of the rougher working conditions at
           | Tesla and SpaceX (at least the pay seems good at those
           | companies though).
        
         | sourthyme wrote:
         | There's so much hype and expectation compared other software
         | that it hits harder when bad software design appears in gaming.
         | Bad software/project design still exists for regular software
         | but users are more understandable when deadlines change.
        
       | mhh__ wrote:
       | Bethesda need just let obsidian make the fallout games from now
       | on.
       | 
       | They don't understand the franchise's message or the lore, they
       | can't write very well, and they also really struggle with
       | technology apparently.
        
         | ssully wrote:
         | I won't say it will never happen, but Obsidian has basically
         | already made their own property in the style of Fallout with
         | The Outerworlds.
        
       | uejfiweun wrote:
       | It seems pretty clear to me that in the video games industry (and
       | pretty much any 'art' industry for that matter) great results are
       | driven by singular, great people. Todd Howard was the mind behind
       | TES and Fallout 3/4. Hidetaka Miyazaki was the mind behind Souls
       | / Elden Ring. Shigeru Miyamoto was the mind behind Mario. And
       | it's because these people really care about the product they are
       | making. They have PASSION.
       | 
       | When it comes to a game like 76, which was clearly mandated by
       | some greedy executives who don't play games, the lack of passion
       | permeates the whole game. From what the article describes it
       | seems like nobody wanted to work on this thing - not the QA, not
       | the devs, not the managers. The end result is no surprise. Nobody
       | cared.
       | 
       | If I was a games exec, I would do everything to empower the great
       | minds that produce great games to pursue the projects they are
       | passionate about. Unfortunately there are a lot of very
       | successful companies out there that do the exact opposite of
       | that, but the tide seems to be turning.
       | 
       | EDIT: I want to clarify that part and parcel with being a
       | talented passionate game director is the ability to build a great
       | team and keep the team motivated. Obviously passion isn't the
       | only ingredient to make a great game. As with any other massive
       | undertaking, teams of humans are what get the job done. I simply
       | observe that these singular figures have the two-part gift of
       | understanding what makes a great game, and also being able to
       | attract others who can help execute that vision.
        
         | antisthenes wrote:
         | > Todd Howard was the mind behind TES and Fallout 3/4.
         | 
         | If your example of a great game is Fallout 4, then you've
         | already lost the argument.
         | 
         | It pales in comparison to Fallout NV, Fallout 2 and even 3 in
         | many regards. It's an extremely dumbed-down RPG experience,
         | plagued by a lot of the same issues that are present in 76,
         | including lack of passion and generic, tropey NPCs and
         | environments.
         | 
         | I think it would be more fair to say that most studios and game
         | designers have their masterpieces, and then most of their other
         | work is mediocre, simply because it trends towards the mean.
         | 
         | Some great studios and designers can replicate their initial
         | success once or twice more, but those are extremely rare.
        
           | JohnJamesRambo wrote:
           | I loved Fallout 4, I'm sorry. Every second. I think a lot of
           | people see the older games through nostalgia lenses when
           | their lives were better/minds were younger/they were first
           | experiencing an engrossing RPG. I played NV after 4 and NV
           | was good too. Fallout 3 I keep giving up on and I'm not a
           | quitter. It just doesn't draw me in like the other ones. It
           | seems crude and simple comparatively, due to its age I guess.
        
             | ericd wrote:
             | It's not just nostalgia, go play Fallout 2, GoG has a copy
             | that should work. It holds up extremely well, because it's
             | just a much better game than the Bethesda versions. The
             | writing, the humor, the world building, it feels a lot more
             | alive and real than the much more technically advanced
             | iterations. Fallout 1 is less polished, but also great.
             | Fallout 3+ always felt like a reskinned Elder Scrolls to
             | me.
        
               | lostmsu wrote:
               | I did exactly that. Multiple times, including before
               | Fallout 3 came out, after, and also pretty recently.
               | IMHO, Fallout 2 sucks in comparison with anything F3+.
               | Worldbuilding might be there, but the gameplay simply
               | isn't.
               | 
               | There's nothing wrong with being "a reskinned Elder
               | Scrolls". Elder Scrolls is a great game (series). It is
               | up there in the hall of masterpieces along with GTA and
               | CS.
               | 
               | If you don't believe my word, look at Steam stats:
               | https://store.steampowered.com/stats/
               | 
               | Like many here I also believed F3 and NV had better
               | storytelling. But many hours of playing later, I see that
               | I actually prefer F4.
        
             | kaibee wrote:
             | Try Fallout 2.
        
             | antisthenes wrote:
             | > I think a lot of people see the older games through
             | nostalgia lenses when their lives were better/minds were
             | younger/they were first experiencing an engrossing RPG.
             | 
             | Yes, they do. But it is absolutely not the case here,
             | sorry. F4 is just a worse game.
             | 
             | It's not the worst game in the series or the genre, but it
             | is utterly mediocre and not at all an example of a
             | resounding success in Bethesda's history as a game company.
             | Metacritic's 5.6/10 User score agrees with me.
             | 
             | Doesn't mean you have to stop liking the game. There are
             | plenty of bad games we all play as guilty pleasures.
             | 
             | Also, just FYI, I think Fallout 1, the first game in the
             | series is a pretty awful game. It's extremely short, the
             | side quests are all boring fetch/kill quests, the open
             | world is mostly dead. F2 was a huge improvement upon it.
        
           | uejfiweun wrote:
           | Haha, that's fair. I certainly didn't like it the first time
           | I played it. However, I recently tried again on survival mode
           | after a friend's recommendation, and it feels totally
           | different. No fast travel and saving only at beds changes the
           | game completely. Suddenly vertibirds are useful, settlements
           | are mandatory, and the world feels absolutely gigantic rather
           | than a sandbox separated by loading screens. Highly recommend
           | checking it out (although it still won't scratch your RPG
           | itch).
        
         | Apocryphon wrote:
         | Hero worship is bad in games development because it can lead to
         | just as tortuous experiences for those working under a supposed
         | visionary who takes the praise and becomes a megalomaniac.
        
         | Beltalowda wrote:
         | > It seems pretty clear to me that in the video games industry
         | (and pretty much any 'art' industry for that matter) great
         | results are driven by singular, great people. Todd Howard was
         | the mind behind TES and Fallout 3/4
         | 
         | There are also many great results that are a team effort.
         | 
         | And according to this article Todd Howard was also part of the
         | problem. For example:
         | 
         | "[A]lmost none of the Bethesda designers wanted the game to
         | launch without NPCs. The design teams at both Rockville and
         | Austin wanted NPCs to fill out the world of Fallout 76, but
         | they say executive producer Todd Howard was not willing to
         | budge all the way up 'til launch."
        
           | uejfiweun wrote:
           | Yeah, its my bad for not articulating this in the post.
           | Obviously, any giant product like a modern movie or game is
           | made by teams. I think one hallmark of a great director is
           | the ability to build a great team around you, which is just
           | as important as being passionate and understanding the
           | medium.
        
           | bradhe wrote:
           | Having a vision is "part of the problem?"
        
             | kristofferR wrote:
             | If the vision is bad then obviously.
        
             | anigbrowl wrote:
             | Lots of visions are mediocre, incoherent, or superficial.
        
         | synu wrote:
         | I worked in the video game industry for a long time. This is a
         | story you're being sold - it's the teams who build great games,
         | not some singular great passionate mind. It's a way for
         | marketing teams to build a brand, not much more than that.
        
         | izzydata wrote:
         | I don't think it comes down to a singular person, but I'm
         | pretty sure it is about passion. Modern large game studios have
         | removed all the passion and turned game development into an
         | assembly line of 100s or more people working on it. Creating a
         | very large game and also having it be good seems more like an
         | exception at this point.
         | 
         | Games with small teams probably have a much easier time
         | creating a game they are passionate about even if the scope of
         | the game has to be smaller.
        
           | urthor wrote:
           | I find the presence of the "auteur" is valuable because it's
           | a signal to people.
           | 
           | When there's a single leader who's highly motivated to do
           | critically acclaimed work, it signals to talent that this is
           | a project aimed at critically acclaimed work.
           | 
           | Now, said auteur also makes great margin calls and leadership
           | decisions.
           | 
           | But keep in mind it's not just "great man syndrome."
        
         | meheleventyone wrote:
         | > It seems pretty clear to me that in the video games industry
         | (and pretty much any 'art' industry for that matter) great
         | results are driven by singular, great people.
         | 
         | I can assure you from working inside said industry that this is
         | not often the case, if ever.
         | 
         | Edit to add: great results are driven by great teams.
        
           | fnordpiglet wrote:
           | I agree. Producers and designers that frontline a successful
           | project get the visibility but they have to be backed by
           | highly effective teams of equally gifted folks that
           | collaborate effectively. I don't think this is different for
           | any complex human endeavor. Often times the front liner isn't
           | the one who built the team - there's often an anchor person
           | more in the middle of the project that attracts talent and
           | creates the atmosphere of collegial collaboration. Smart
           | front liners bring those folks along to the next projects.
           | From the article it sounds like that was Starfield, not 76,
           | which is probably why it was so miserable.
        
           | uejfiweun wrote:
           | That's a totally fair point, and I completely agree. I should
           | have clarified this in my original post. If you're passionate
           | about games, but nobody wants to work with you, then that
           | passion won't permeate throughout the development team. All
           | these gaming visionaries tend to have the gift of extreme
           | charisma and strong passion for games - you need both IMO to
           | make a great result. You may have a great idea, but you need
           | to get people fired up about it too and articulate it in a
           | way that can be understood.
        
         | pacetherace wrote:
         | What you mean to say is that there are guys who get much more
         | credit than they deserve when a game or for that matter any
         | product becomes a success.
         | 
         | Fallout 76 seems to be a classic case of unrealistic
         | development and testing deadlines.
        
       | bradhe wrote:
       | I'm all for the unionization of labor in this industry. But this
       | article absolutely has a spin on the whole thing. They're
       | painting QA in a light where by they're underappreciated despite
       | their deep talent comparable to engineering and art. Am I wrong
       | in thinking that, indeed, while their skills are important,
       | they're easily replaceable as compared to developers or artists?
        
         | Avshalom wrote:
         | what makes you think devs and artists are difficult to replace
         | at Bethesda's scale. or indeed at any scale in the video game
         | industry.
         | 
         | more expensive maybe, but that's not the same as difficult.
        
           | friedman23 wrote:
           | Devs are absolutely hard to replace in any industry right now
           | given that I have to give 2 interviews a week in my current
           | job.
        
             | Avshalom wrote:
             | so at minimum two people apply and get past HR's filters
             | per a week.
             | 
             | hard to replace is when there are no interviews a week.
        
         | thedz wrote:
         | I don't know that replaceability (true or not) should have that
         | much of an outsized impact on the expectations of humane
         | treatment
         | 
         | I realize capitalism rewards scarcity here, but imo this is a
         | piece explicitly about the tolls that tends to bring
        
       | Animats wrote:
       | Union, yes!
       | 
       | I'm waiting to see how this "metaverse" thing works out, as it
       | moves from the dreams and bullshit stage to the actual
       | implementation stage. Big, high-quality shared virtual worlds are
       | hard. There really are no off the shelf solutions that Just Work.
       | Epic is spending US$2 billion on this. Roblox has 90 dev teams.
       | The NFT crowd has announced lots of stuff, and shipped only very
       | basic worlds such as Decentraland.
       | 
       | Bored Ape Yacht Club's "Otherside" supposedly launches in mid-
       | July, with very ambitious goals. We'll see.
        
         | paskozdilar wrote:
         | Honestly, the whole metaverse thing has always felt to me like
         | a bunch of baloney. Why exactly would anyone want to join
         | metaverse? What purpose does it serve?
        
           | TrevorJ wrote:
           | I view it as something that is inevitably happening in
           | _spite_ of all these large companies who are tying to own it.
           | They are to the metaverse what AOL was to the worldwide web.
        
         | danuker wrote:
         | > how this "metaverse" thing works out
         | 
         | Not looking too good. Especially since the interest rate hike
         | (the free money faucet was tightened), but the timing might be
         | coincidence.
         | 
         | https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&plat...
        
         | yarg wrote:
         | I still can't believe that Facebook trademarked a prefix.
         | 
         | (I'm not surprised they tried; but surely they should have
         | failed.)
         | 
         | The metaverse will succeed if it breaks free of the walled
         | gardens; a federated distributed internet - controlled by the
         | users.
         | 
         | Otherwise the users will continue to be the product, eating an
         | illusion of freedom that only ever tells them what they want to
         | hear and think they already know.
        
         | Hamuko wrote:
         | What is my incentive as a game developer to make a "big, high-
         | quality shared virtual world"?
        
           | Animats wrote:
           | Second Life is "a cash machine", according to its owners.
           | 
           | Turns out that no advertising, rent land, sell memberships
           | works.
        
             | kaibee wrote:
             | This is good motivation to make a metaverse. It is not a
             | good motivation to enter one as a developer.
        
           | devwastaken wrote:
           | Connections and sale of assets. Look at VRchat.
        
             | Macha wrote:
             | But the only ways to give money for VRChat is the
             | subscription for extra avatar bookmarks and a fancy
             | nameplate. And from what I understand, the deeper into it
             | people get, the more likely they are to stick to one
             | avatar.
             | 
             | This is a pretty good deal for the users, but it's not
             | going to pay for a Meta quantity of developers.
             | 
             | Yet if they put in all the mobile money extraction
             | mechanisms into it, why would people choose Meta's product
             | over VRChat?
        
             | JaimeThompson wrote:
             | Meta will be taking approximately 50% of all sales on their
             | metaverse platform IIRC.
             | 
             | Seems a bit much.
        
       | siskiyou wrote:
       | If anyone looking for a career in the tech industry says they
       | love games and game development, please tell them not to work for
       | a gaming company. I suppose they're not all horrible, but the
       | percentage of horrible companies in the gaming industry is too
       | damn high.
        
         | ModernMech wrote:
         | Tell them to work in robotics instead. A lot of the technical
         | challenges you find in games can be found in the computer
         | vision and robot simulation spaces.
        
         | TylerE wrote:
         | This is true of pretty much of any job people want to do
         | (performer, commercial pilot...)
         | 
         | Jobs are generally; Demanding, Requiring Skill, Well
         | Compensated... pick 2
        
           | siskiyou wrote:
           | I had great experiences in the tech industry for over 25
           | years with very little overwork, great pay, and though I have
           | some skills, really nothing special. My way to win was
           | getting along in teams, and being vigilant on behalf of
           | customers/company. I have a high school diploma. This was
           | easy money for me.
        
       | xen2xen1 wrote:
       | Sad. 76 is one of my favorite things. I didn't bother to play it
       | until they added NPC's though. Fallout with no NPC's is like a
       | Hershey's bar with no chocolate.
        
       | friedman23 wrote:
       | Video game QA (really any qa) seems like an absolutely terrible
       | job. If you are young and reading this, don't choose professions
       | that require 0 qualifications and have a massive line out the
       | door of willing applicants.
        
       | tmp_anon_22 wrote:
       | I think a lot about the emotional abuse the Overwatch team has
       | faced over the years. They created a once in a generation
       | experience which outperformed every reasonable expectation (OWL
       | was not a reasonable expectation unless you are on shrooms).
        
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