[HN Gopher] Value Chains: Designing Video Game Economies
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       Value Chains: Designing Video Game Economies
        
       Author : martialg
       Score  : 21 points
       Date   : 2022-06-07 14:09 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (lostgarden.home.blog)
 (TXT) w3m dump (lostgarden.home.blog)
        
       | ItsMonkk wrote:
       | Disagree strongly with the early argument in the article. If a
       | gameplay element in your game is not fun, it should not be in the
       | game. Games are about fun. If that gameplay element gate-keeps a
       | fun element, then players will do it, but they won't like it, and
       | will quit your game earlier than if your game was just the fun
       | element. Cut the fat, keep the fun. Mobile 'pay-to-skip-the-
       | boring' is the pinnacle of this, and is not a good practice. That
       | said, there are reasons to have these sorts of tasks.
       | 
       | 1. Your core gameplay is complex, for example in Factorio it
       | starts with chopping trees, but it does so as a tutorial so that
       | you manually learn what your later automations are doing. If you
       | can create timing mini-games when you chop the tree at a certain
       | rhythm to do extra damage, and those timings later work against
       | bosses, players will understand what is really going on here.
       | It's an un-punishing tutorial.
       | 
       | 2. You want a good mix between extremely intense and more calming
       | gameplay. If your core gameplay is intense then having these
       | sorts of breaks in between the intensity will improve the
       | experience. Without the intensity, your play-testers might not
       | understand the point. Drinking to regain mana in WoW is not fun
       | in itself, but if it gives an opportunity to regain composure and
       | communicate during the run to meet new people, it actually is.
       | 
       | 3. These elements tend to be in multiplayer titles, and you can
       | get results that are better than the sum of their parts because
       | of the community bonding aspect. If one player chopping 10 trees
       | and another collects 10 rocks, and then they trade so that each
       | have 5 of each - which because of specialization allows them to
       | have more than they could get alone, then this boring gameplay
       | just facilitated a trade. In fact, I suspect the author would
       | agree with me here, as his earlier blog article on RotMG has this
       | line: 'The rule of thumb for everything is "Does this mechanic
       | make the game better to play together?"'. The entire point of
       | economies in games is to get people to coordinate because
       | coordination is fun.
       | 
       | Checking the Steam reviews for the game mentioned, all of the
       | negative reviews mention gate-keeping and boring repetitive
       | gameplay. It still has a 'Very Positive' rating, but there are a
       | lot of low-hanging fruit that could improve the game. 'A Short
       | Hike' is the perfect example that you should attempt to emulate,
       | and is among the top mentioned games when 'under-rated games' are
       | brought up.
        
         | endominus wrote:
         | I disagree with the implicit belief that every game should be
         | fun. There are other metrics to judge games by. Though it might
         | be needed in this particular game, it's not true of all games
         | as a whole, nor of every mechanic in games.
         | 
         | The Beginner's Guide did not need fun to keep me, at least,
         | engaged. Dwarf Fortress's fun must be made almost entirely by
         | the player. Boring or downright hostile mechanics - such as
         | long travel times in X3, or the long slog of rebuilding an army
         | after a disastrous war in Mount and Blade, or permadeath in
         | Darkest Dungeon and roguelikes - are not fun, yet I contend
         | that without them the rest of the game would feel boring, even
         | weightless. The unfun parts don't just "pad out" the game, they
         | give meaning to the player's decisions and make choices matter.
        
           | ItsMonkk wrote:
           | I accept this criticism. I misspoke slightly when I said fun.
           | Entertaining is closer. A game should know what it wants to
           | invoke in the player, and the entire game should be built
           | around that.
           | 
           | In a game like Paper's Please, your moment to moment gameplay
           | might not be fun, but the tedium is deliberate and a part of
           | the experience.
           | 
           | Cutting down trees for a half an hour straight so that you
           | can later be creative and decorate your house, much less so.
        
         | Night_Thastus wrote:
         | Regarding fun vs. not-fun gameplay elements, there's a lot of
         | flexibility here.
         | 
         | Sure, chopping down a tree may not be particularly fun. But if
         | as the game progresses you can work to build/unlock better and
         | better tools for doing it, you can see and feel the
         | satisfaction that your hard work has provided - making this
         | task easier allowing you to more quickly go on to greater
         | things. If time is limited in the game, that's another layer.
         | The activity hasn't gotten any more fun in itself, but it makes
         | _other_ things more fun. (the gear progression)
         | 
         | I think it's also OK for a game to have some activities that
         | aren't as fun, if they are needed for a system that _is_ very
         | fun. I 'd rather have a game that's focusing on what it does
         | well than try to make every single activity good. Sure,
         | Skyrim's lockpicking is pretty dull. But if time was invested
         | there instead of into the core loop of explore->kill->retrieve,
         | I'm not sure it would be a better game.
        
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