[HN Gopher] In Algeria, Ancient Cave Art May Show Psychedelic Mu...
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In Algeria, Ancient Cave Art May Show Psychedelic Mushroom Use
Author : prismatic
Score : 48 points
Date : 2022-06-07 01:55 UTC (21 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.atlasobscura.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.atlasobscura.com)
| vladimir929 wrote:
| TL;DR you cannot attribute this rock art to mushrooms.
|
| Rock art specialists will say that interpreting rock art is
| extremely hard and should be done with caution.
|
| When even the foremost experts have been completely wrong when
| taking their interpretations of rock art to the indigenous
| peoples that had their meanings passed down.
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| Yeah man... I don't know. That's kind of a just-so story you have
| there.
|
| But Joe Rogan would love it!
| begueradj wrote:
| That's just an interpretation of the some of the paintings.
| Interpretations are a very subjective assessment and change over
| time. For instance, the same paintings are interpreted as
| representations of extra terrestrial creatures.
| TremendousJudge wrote:
| A big difference is that we know for a fact that psychedelic
| mushrooms were around back then -- they didn't spring into
| existence in the last couple thousand years.
| vladimir929 wrote:
| Sure but rock art is extremely extremely hard to interpret.
| The foremost world experts in it. Do not make such claims.
| Unless there was a mushroom literally found at the site how
| can a serious person make such a bold claim.
|
| (Even if a mushroom or proof of its usage was found nearby.
| Rock art specialists have found that dating rock art by the
| surrounding context is not the correct technique. As newer
| methodology has found that the surrounding context can lead
| to dating thousands of years off. It's best to date the art
| directly)
| formerkrogemp wrote:
| It's not like we can find fossilized shrooms that easily.
| They decompose things as part of their food source just as
| they in turn decompose things. I grow shrooms, and they
| don't have a shelf life for more than 3-12 days depending
| upon the variety of edible if they're not dried out. Reishi
| notwithstanding.
| TremendousJudge wrote:
| I'm not saying that this should be thought of as the only
| interpretation, only that it seems more likely than
| "aliens". And in the pictures provided by the article, one
| of them clearly depicts mushrooms
| pvaldes wrote:
| Clearly inspired by the anatomy of a foetus or stillborn to me.
| The stripes in the arms could represent fasciae of muscles. Eye
| and nose cavities in the skull can be spotted easily in the
| figure.
|
| Not need to use a supernatural explanation for something that
| can be explained by normal events.
|
| https://www.darwinandwallace.com/products/fetal-human-skelet...
| asdff wrote:
| Ancient peoples likely consumed everything seemingly edible they
| came across. Imagine how profound an experience would be taking a
| hallucinogen as an ancient person, with no explanations for how
| anything of that experience might of worked. It really seems
| plausible that an experience like this could lead to entire
| belief systems of thought, especially during this time when no
| one knew what a psychedelic trip was or how to place that
| experience in any context. It wouldn't be hard to imagine entire
| cultures springing up around these drugs back then. After all,
| entire cultures have sprung up around these drugs in modern
| times.
| dontbenebby wrote:
| >Ancient peoples likely consumed everything seemingly edible
| they came across.
|
| And they traveled much more slowly, so I'd expect that what is
| now Algerians may have had many folks in parallel eat things,
| die, not what didn't kill them, etc.
|
| The real issue seems to be that some folks take things that
| used to be taken once a year or less on a much regular basis.
|
| For example, I met someone who was native american. I don't
| recall which tribe. But they told me that tobacco used to be
| more akin to how some folks who are Italian will only drink
| once a year at Christmas.
|
| I've also noticed a sunk costs phenomenon related to the prison
| industrial complex: if your freedom depends on following a
| treatment program, and the treatment program doen't allow you
| healthy choices, then sometimes they'll double down on
| unhealthy behaviors.
|
| (For example, you can drink alcohol on a Friday and clear it
| out of your system Monday, but be a violent jerk for those two
| days your parole officer is not at work, versus smoking a joint
| in a park on a Saturday morning, then sitting silently in a
| corner with your wifi off sorting the nature photos you took,
| having burned as many or more calories as you would in a gym
| walking around taking them.)
|
| I've yet to sample psilocybin[1] in a good set and setting --
| both times I compromised on that due to sourcing issues.
|
| The first time cleared my depression, but that "depressive
| realism" stayed with me.
|
| The second, my home was unclean and triggering my allergies,
| and when I tried to go out for a walk, folks I encountered did
| not help the matter.
|
| (I've met people in a variety of contexts like a party at
| hacker conference, bar patio, or attending a lecture at the
| Federal Trade Commission's offices at Constitution Center, and
| I'd always just try to ask if they needed water or an escort to
| safety, let them know I (at the time) had a script for 0.5
| aloprazolam pills, and encourage them to avoid alcohol for a
| few hours so if the trip gets worse they can safely take a
| benzo.
|
| But to be clear, I have zero medical training. I'm just a mid
| 30s hacker who wants people to stop making bad decisions, and
| will (figuratively) bend over backwards to assist that if
| people try to minimize their impact on others. :-)
|
| The Dutch "smart shops" had a good idea in that they rate the
| strength of the dose, and sell truffles so it's harder to take
| a bunch at once. They did a similar thing with edibles -- they
| sold pound cakes, which are less appetizing to eat multiple of
| than brownies, along with being lower glycemic. Unfortunately I
| made the terrible calculus to not book a single room, so I
| ended up wandering the Red Light district on a bad trip.
|
| They're very tolerant, but at the end of the day, it's a
| business district and if you're "just admiring the neon"
| they're going to get annoyed even if you're not taking photos.
|
| I did a walking tour during the day, which was immensely
| educational, but you really need to go through at night to see
| the neon, though I _strongly_ suggest finding a partner, even
| if it 's someone who seems halfway sane from the hostel bar.
| Just pray they don't have a midlife crisis during the walk and
| try to make out with you after telling you their spouse is
| involved with a conference you've attended for a decade, or
| you'll wish you'd just downed 1.5mg of alprazolam on little to
| no tolerance and went to sleep for 16 hours.
|
| [1] Erowid is a good resource for dosages etc but double check
| what you read there
| https://erowid.org/chemicals/psilocybin/psilocybin.shtml
| bitxbitxbitcoin wrote:
| The tobacco the Native American was talking about is likely
| nicotina rusticana which is apparently ~9x stronger.[0] Not
| to detract from your point but that isn't what they sell in
| stores.
|
| [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotiana_rustica
| dontbenebby wrote:
| Interesting! I will bookmark this, thanks for the
| scientific name.
|
| People often smoke a whole pack though (20 cigarettes, I
| think a gram in each?)
|
| Probably better to make it legal to buy just one.
|
| I used to bum them when drinking, or sometimes buy a pack,
| smoke two, and trade the rest for someone to put a beer on
| their credit card. They were usually getting a good deal
| since I'd have an American brand...
|
| I didn't like how some people would load up at a duty free
| store and sell at a profit or stretch the definition of
| friends and family for gifting purposes, I try to just get
| one or two of something, use it, and maybe trade a bit of
| the extra for something else that's hard to obtain.
| uwagar wrote:
| haha funny, sounds like u are tripping now too ;)
| dontbenebby wrote:
| Nah, my anxiety spiked because the guy who tried to kill me
| keeps showing up in the best spots to study.
|
| I purposefully bought some food so I can stay in a bit, but
| anytime I say something like that, if I end up going out
| again shortly after people react like they aren't literally
| stalking me in a stand your ground state.
|
| (Though someone could argue I'm on a bad caffeine trip, but
| sometimes a bunch of caffeine + ibuprofen is the only thing
| that helps a bad stress headache, I have no idea if it's a
| placebo or a physical effect though.)
| [deleted]
| allemagne wrote:
| Not to totally disagree, but while the first psychedelic trips
| would be extremely confusing and profound to the first person
| who experienced them with no knowledge, prehistoric humans
| would already have a baseline understanding of altered states
| of consciousness (dreams, extreme emotional states, other drugs
| like alcohol).
| dontbenebby wrote:
| >Not to totally disagree, but while the first psychedelic
| trips would be extremely confusing and profound to the first
| person who experienced them with no knowledge
|
| Very few things are truly magic, and finding out if an
| experience is truly unique is as close you can get to a
| miracle in an age of smartphones with multi megapixel cameras
| and high quality audio mics in the hands of vast swathes of
| the populace.
|
| But I'm speaking from the perspective of a WEIRD guy[1] --
| they seem to be considering dropping the D here in the USA :/
|
| [1] https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/Weird_People_BBS_
| fin...
| radus wrote:
| To those interested in the history of human consumption of
| hallucinogens I can't recommend this book enough: The
| Immortality Key.
| zvmaz wrote:
| I'm Algerian. Note that if you want to go to certain places in
| Algeria, you have to be escorted by the police.
| uwagar wrote:
| the desert looks awesome. for everyone? or just tourists are
| escorted?
| Off wrote:
| Foreign tourists are always escorted by gendarmes in those
| places, especially when it shares borders with Libya. Local
| tourists can visit but some places require an escort.
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| There is zero literary evidence from Ancient Greek, Latin,
| Assyrian or Chinese sources. Meaning: it was a long-standing
| taboo by then.
| bergenty wrote:
| TremendousJudge wrote:
| Literary canons are not everything that was ever written, only
| what people decided was valuable to keep copying. Until more
| durable parchment and paper were introduced, everything on
| Europe was written on papyrus, which quickly decays on more
| humid weather and has to be continuously maintained by copying.
| It's possible that it was written about, but wasn't a super
| popular topic in the intervening time and the texts didn't
| reach us.
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| Again, points to taboo over lack of knowledge. Think about it
| -- really, no one knew about psilocybin mushrooms till 1957?
| uwagar wrote:
| the mexican lady shaman that showed gordon wasson knew it
| before 1957 (life article :)
| begueradj wrote:
| Or maybe for them, it's like drinking water, no interest for
| them to talk about something they consume "naturally"
| voltaireodactyl wrote:
| I'm open to this idea, but they talk about alcohol plenty
| which would suggest it's not the case.
| vadansky wrote:
| The book "The Road to Eleusis" has _some_ proof, obviously it
| 's a biased interpretation but it's still interesting to
| consider.
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| Road to Eleusis is convincing. But it is about ergot rot on
| barley, not psilocybin mushrooms which grow naturally all
| over Europe.
| pvaldes wrote:
| The mushrooms in the figure masked as some ungulate are the
| hands, maybe shaped like hoofs, or any other ornament. The people
| "levitating high" are clearly swimming in an age when Sahara was
| covered with lakes.
|
| I don't see anything suggesting mushroom use in the pictures, I
| see another victim of publish (anything) or perish. But people
| will see what they want to see, of course.
|
| And to prove it wouldn't be difficult. If you paint something in
| presence of fungi, the spores will be everywhere and fuse with
| the paint. Each spore has a different shape and size, so you
| could even guess the family or genus.
|
| No spores or spores of other species? don't make us lose our
| time.
|
| Spores over the painting? recent times. The images would
| represent any other thing.
|
| But if they find ancient spores under the layers of painting, (or
| traces of it as bubbles in the pigment), and are of the shape and
| size correct, the theory would start having any support at least.
|
| In the giant I see a foetus dead, with a small figure next that
| has a suspiciously round belly.
| Enginerrrd wrote:
| >The mushrooms in the figure masked as some ungulate are the
| hands, maybe shaped like hoofs
|
| That would explain the bottom two but it doesn't the top two.
| The alternative is to take it more literally and see them as
| attached to the upper arm and upper thigh. I'm also not
| overwhelmingly convinced that they represent mushrooms though.
| poulpy123 wrote:
| I sometimes have the feeling that people read too much in this
| kind of things.
| feet wrote:
| Or its just evidence that humans have been using these
| compounds for eons, contrary to what the clowns in government
| seem to think
| iancmceachern wrote:
| There is so much evidence across all of humanity's history,
| mushrooms, Ayahuasca, peyote, etc.
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21893367/#:~:text=Olmec%2C%2.
| ...
|
| And also - if you were an ancient human wouldn't you? (Use
| them) I would.
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