[HN Gopher] Walking the World: Seoul
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Walking the World: Seoul
Author : jbredeche
Score : 55 points
Date : 2022-06-06 14:43 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (walkingtheworld.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (walkingtheworld.substack.com)
| curuinor wrote:
| seoul has city planners, hell, my cousin applied to be one. it's
| just that unlike in the us, city planners are empowered to get
| nimbys to shut the hell up and go and build things
| Barrin92 wrote:
| it's less a case of city planners being empowered and more a
| case of property rights being absolute (similar to Japan,
| France or Germany) which gives property and land owners the
| right to do whatever they want (within the confines of national
| regulation), which leads to development towards economic
| demands naturally.
|
| This is also why Seoul or many Japanese cities look so
| individualistic and mosaic like from one lot to the other as
| the author describes in the article.
| curuinor wrote:
| lawrenceyan wrote:
| > The younger generation seems to be dealing with the rampant
| consumption and materialism, and the emptiness that results, by
| embracing the cute.
|
| This resonates. Didn't realize it until now though.
| cm2012 wrote:
| Or, cute things are just fun. One of my favorite things about
| Korea and Korean products is that they take the time to make
| even small things like pens pretty. I would love for American
| society to "embrace the cute" more.
| livueta wrote:
| This thesis always reminds me of Satoshi Kon and _Paranoia
| Agent_.
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20210820145247/https://sittingon...
|
| > "monotonous ruins of a nation-state... perfectly realized in
| the name of capitalism."
|
| > Urban isolation and rapidly advancing technology have helped
| erode reality in favor of representation. Connection with real
| human beings becomes less desirable; cartoon characters to
| which you will never be held accountable become ideal friends.
|
| > a cartoon dog, soft and cuddly, with no blood, no fragile
| network of organs, no accountability and no ability to hold
| others accountable.
| foobarian wrote:
| I feel uneasy dismissing this new way of things and harkening
| back to the more meaningful old days, because the crispy clear
| meaning back then often stemmed from war. When you had
| adversaries threatening to destroy your country of course it
| felt so much more fulfilling to train to be any number of
| supporting or active roles. Without that pressure, things seem
| to lose that sharp drive but perhaps we are better off. It is
| also probably true that we have not evolved to live in a state
| of peace, and have a long way to go as a race to become
| accustomed to it.
| kcanini wrote:
| I wonder whether the threat of attack from North Korea is
| felt in daily life in Seoul.
| chrischen wrote:
| I didn't get that from day to day life, but you'd probably
| feel it in things like mandatory military service, and the
| fact that escalators going down to subway stations were
| deeper than normal.
| pigtailgirl wrote:
| -- only real issue walking in Seoul is the fine folks of said
| city have not yet selected a uniformed direction of travel per
| side of any given walkway - that is to say - they meander all
| over - i've always found this quite challenging - i like to look
| a head a plan my path through the pedestrians - a difficult
| endeavor in this city -- that said - still easily my favorite
| city in the world for walking around --
| curuinor wrote:
| they had a campaign a decade back to get people to walk on the
| right side and put stickers everywhere in the subways for it.
| didn't work out 100% because the previous direction was left.
| when the ad campaign finished, some people reverted
| zelphirkalt wrote:
| It does not work out 100% anywhere in the world. 80-90% is
| sufficient. Not having any order is just inefficient.
| anm89 wrote:
| > Seoul is not a pretty town, not at least by most Western senses
| of beauty.
|
| Seoul is one of the most intensely aesthetic places on the
| planet. It's ugliness wraps all the way around into a kind of
| brutalist cyber punk thing that I find to be one of the coolest
| aesthetics of any city anywhere. I don't think I've ever found
| brutalist stuff to be beautiful outside of Seoul
|
| Really grateful for the countless hours of my life I've gotten to
| spend walking around Seoul between 3-6am
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| The chaos of people being able to build whatever, wherever, is
| probably why Seoul and Tokyo both have remarkably reasonable
| rents relative to their size, prosperity, and national
| importance.
|
| These cities are a bit like slamming NYC, SF, and LA together
| into a single megacity. And yet rent prices there are generally
| much lower than the most comparable big cities in the US.
| sva_ wrote:
| > reasonable rent
|
| Surely you mean outside the city center?
| chrischen wrote:
| I just got a private office in the center of Tokyo (Minato-
| ku) for about $400/mo. You can barely get a hot-desk in San
| Francisco for that price.
| frxx wrote:
| Seems to look a lot like Tokyo. Lovely writing and photography
| here for sure.
| temp8964 wrote:
| As someone grew up in similar environment, I don't miss this at
| all.
|
| I would rather buy grocery once a week with a huge load put in
| the trunk and drive back home, instead of buy a little bit every
| next day and walk home carrying the bags. I don't want to carry a
| gallon milk or a Watermolen, or push/drag a cart on the street.
|
| I think people who envy this kind of environment just don't know
| how inconvenient it is for a working family with a few kids. But
| it is kind of OK if you live with grandpa / grandmom, who will do
| grocery almost everyday, or if you don't do grocery just eat in
| restaurants or buy food online.
| silicon2401 wrote:
| I agree. This is why I'm excited to have a house where I can
| buy in greater bulk and do groceries less often. Even doing
| groceries once a week is a hassle
| dougmwne wrote:
| I think even in a very walkable city it can be inconvenient not
| to have a car. I enjoy buying groceries for the next day or two
| and making multiple quick trips per week in tiny stores. I also
| like taking the car over to the hypermarket and loading up on
| heavy, bulky and pantry items. I also sometimes get free
| grocery delivery instead. It's really about choice. In the US,
| often your only choice is Walmart.
| presentation wrote:
| As someone who lives in Tokyo and cooks regularly I for one
| don't mind this at all and in fact prefer it to my life in the
| USA where all the produce tastes like nothing and all the food
| is packed with preservatives to last long beyond their natural
| expiry dates to accommodate said lifestyle.
| temp8964 wrote:
| This actually I do agree, USA food are almost tasteless on
| everything.
| yongjik wrote:
| Counterpoint: Many American parents spend a large portion of
| their time simply shuttling their kids between home, school,
| and other activities, because none are within walking distance
| and buses are all but absent in most places.
|
| I'm now raising my kids in the Bay Area, and I'm fortunate
| because the kids' schools are within walking distance, but
| that's a luxury not enjoyed by most people around here.
| temp8964 wrote:
| Yes. You may have a few things in walking distance, but I
| don't believe you can have most things (schools, grocery,
| public library, gyms, bike ground, soccer ground, tennis
| court, etc.) in walking distance, you will need other
| transportations other than legs.
| dougmwne wrote:
| Around here in Europe, the kids ride the city bus along
| with the adults or hop on a bike/scooter. And in fact, most
| of the things you listed are within a medium walk or short
| bike ride from most urban neighborhoods in my city. It's
| not a particularly big or important city, about 400k, but
| has extremely human friendly urban planning (hooray
| communists?)
| rexpress wrote:
| Not sure if your comment was confined to the USA or not,
| but I live in outer suburban London, and I have the
| schools, small Sainsbury's supermarket, libraries, a small
| gym, soccer grounds and tennis courts within an easy walk.
| Larger gym and larger supermarkets are an easy bike ride
| away. There is nothing at all unusual or remarkable about
| my particular part of London.
| bombcar wrote:
| From where I'm sitting a 15 minute walks gets to two
| schools, a grocery store, the library, two gyms, a bike
| path, and a soccer field. The tennis court is 19 minutes
| away, and the high school would be the furthest, at 40
| minutes.
|
| And this is in a smallish town, one advantage of which is
| that things _cannot_ be that far away in a town that takes
| an hour to walk across.
| pnathan wrote:
| Counternarrative: I live a few blocks from a grocery store,
| with kid, and frankly, I don't mind it at all. Maybe kid does.
| But it's nice to be able to just walk there and not worry about
| parking, loading, etc. Looking to move to a place even,
| amusingly, closer to the grocery.
|
| now, the kid might decide that he wants a huge SUV and to drive
| to the store every 1-2 weeks, that's going to be interesting.
| But for me, the parent, I like it.
| temp8964 wrote:
| There is almost no parking / loading problem for grocery in
| U.S. suburban. Grocery stores have huge parking lots.
| ddoolin wrote:
| We have two kids born and raised in Seoul. It is a bit of a
| pain, but also the price, quality, and quantity of prepared
| food outside makes it way more feasible to bring that burden
| down somewhat. If your children are small, I could see it being
| a pain. We did have the help of a grandma, though pretty
| inconsistently.
| temp8964 wrote:
| When I grew up, we didn't have food market close, except for
| breakfast. Grocerying was constant pain when the weather was
| not perfect, like too hot, too cold, or raining, snowing etc.
| spywaregorilla wrote:
| Seoul to me felt like NYC but with more eastern european
| presence, and, of course korean. On a whole it felt pretty
| familiar.
| mark_l_watson wrote:
| I enjoyed that article a lot. I just started working remotely for
| a South Korean AI startup and I really look forward to visiting.
| I worked in Singapore for a while, apparently very different than
| Seoul!
| skrbjc wrote:
| I lived in Seoul for almost two years about 10 years ago and I'm
| stricken with how the photos depict it almost exactly the same as
| I remember. It seemed at the time there was an un-ending amount
| of construction, I suppose there are probably many new buildings,
| but seemingly still in the style that I remember.
|
| I was particularly fond of buying beer and sitting at the little
| tables in front of the convenience stores on warm summer nights,
| just enjoying the sights.
|
| He also mentions the number of scooter deliveries, something that
| blew my mind at the time, was when we ordered delivery, someone
| would arrive on a scooter and drop the food off and it was all on
| re-usable plates wrapped in plastic. When you were done, you put
| the dishes in a bag in-front of your door and the delivery person
| would come back later to pick the dishes up. I wonder if that
| still happens.
| givemeethekeys wrote:
| > I was particularly fond of buying beer and sitting at the
| little tables in front of the convenience stores on warm summer
| nights, just enjoying the sights.
|
| You'd love the coffee and beer culture in Hanoi =)
| pnathan wrote:
| I love Chris' writing. He seems to be more of a "regular guy",
| not a "writer", and it comes through in his work.
| pigtailgirl wrote:
| -- he's in his 60s - had a lot of practice :) --
| freewizard wrote:
| Really liked his book _Dignity: Seeking Respect in Back Row
| America_.
| ogogmad wrote:
| Regarding religion, I've heard that the Talmud is a popular book
| in South Korea. I'm surprised by this. Is it appreciated for
| being analytical? For its tradition and lore? I'm Jewish, so I'm
| really curious about this.
|
| [edit] Some Koreans are interested in extending the method of
| Chavruta (friendly debate) into general education:
| https://www.timesofisrael.com/talmud-inspired-learning-craze...
|
| More on Chavruta: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chavrusa
| curuinor wrote:
| it's stereotypes about jews being rich, i'm afraid.
| [deleted]
| lifthrasiir wrote:
| I'm less sure about this as I ponder. So there is definitely
| such a stereotype, and there is also a long-running meme of
| "be a rich" (bujadoeseyo), originated from a 2002 credit card
| advertisement, which cemented a notion of money being a
| virtue to the general public since then. The problem is that
| the Talmud craze definitely predates this meme, probably
| dating back to 1980s. But I can't conclusively say that this
| was nothing to do with that stereotype at that time---it
| might be just that jews are seen as a model minority.
| yongjik wrote:
| As far as I understand, Talmud was sold as a distillation of
| "Jewish wisdom" that raises smart kids, and Koreans are
| _really_ crazy about raising smart kids, and somehow the
| marketing stuck. There may be other aspects to it but I think
| this is the biggest factor.
|
| But then again, books purporting to teach you how to live your
| own life have always enjoyed a steady demand in Korea, and
| Talmud (at least as seen in Korea) fits the mold very well.
| MarkusWandel wrote:
| Coming from an European aesthetic background, but having had a
| little bit of street-level Asia experience... the 4th picture is
| actually very nice.
| jannyfer wrote:
| I think there are many, many beautiful and charming spots in
| Seoul, but I don't see any of them here. And through thousands
| of years of history and various wars, Seoul definitely is a
| mosaic.
|
| My impression is that this author doesn't have a particularly
| great sense of photography - he just faces a storefront and
| snaps a photo.
|
| I enjoyed reading someone else's perspective, though.
| tus666 wrote:
| > Seoul is not a pretty town, not at least by most Western senses
| of beauty
|
| Korea is not a particularly pretty country in general. I think
| people got there for the culture, people and food.
|
| Contrast this with Japan which is stunning almost everywhere. But
| with a very different culinary and cultural experience.
|
| I like both countries, but if it was natural or urban beauty it
| is Japan hands down.
| presentation wrote:
| I live in Japan, I don't really find most day to day
| architecture to be "stunning" but on the other hand I think it
| remains aesthetic thanks to the people and the integration of
| the whole urban form, not its individual buildings. Western
| cities usually do have nicer looking (but less functional)
| architecture.
| tus666 wrote:
| I think the low-key, unique, quirky and tranquil aesthetic is
| what people find stunning about urban Japan.
| ajmurmann wrote:
| I think some of it also the absence of cars in places you'd
| see them in the west. In particular absence of parked cars.
| I didn't realize that that was part of it till I learned
| that street parking is highly restricted in Japan and now I
| cannot unsee it. Similarly the tiny backstreets are super
| charming and also not car friendly. It's human friendly
| though.
|
| Edit: another thing that really sticks out as adding to the
| charm is the more diverse usage of building space. You
| might find businesses on floors other than the ground floor
| and many of them are much smaller than you'd ever find a
| similar business in Europe and especially not the US. It
| gives a feeling that there are always things to discover.
| [deleted]
| smcl wrote:
| It's weird, I visited Seoul a lot and I guess I've internalised
| the fact that it is not pretty ... but it doesn't really
| register when I was there. It's a fairly buzzing city with a
| decent transport system, good food and a lot going on ... so it
| kinda doesn't matter on some level that it's a bit
| unspectacular visually.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| > Places where the only thing that ends up happening is fiddling
| around the edges. Like building bike lanes through neighborhoods
| where nobody ever bikes.
|
| This stood out to me within the article as a rather dumb
| statement to make. Like writing, "nobody ever seems to drive
| through this plot of land that has no roads."
| bombcar wrote:
| It could be read as "bike lanes are added to roads where nobody
| bikes" or "bike lanes are added, and nobody uses them".
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