[HN Gopher] Tesla won't give drivers their own crash data withou...
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Tesla won't give drivers their own crash data without a court order
(2018)
Author : ddtaylor
Score : 109 points
Date : 2022-06-04 21:00 UTC (1 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.consumeraffairs.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.consumeraffairs.com)
| dubswithus wrote:
| Logs don't lie or is there a bug? It would be telling if someone
| had a dashcam pointed at their feet.
| Patrol8394 wrote:
| Welcome to CaaS! Soon people will find themselves having to pay
| subscriptions to drive their own car! Crazy!
| cuteboy19 wrote:
| That's just a rental car
| stcredzero wrote:
| More likely, there will be a subscription for the Full Self
| Driving software, combined with human drivers being restricted
| or banned.
| inkeddeveloper wrote:
| Tesla out here just pushing as many boundaries as they can.
| t0mas88 wrote:
| Funny how they are so "protective of the customer's privacy" that
| they have their CEO tweeting about the data but can't share it
| privately with the affected customer.
|
| Tesla doesn't have a PR department but they're full of PR
| bullshit anyway, starting at the top.
| ModernMech wrote:
| Tesla's PR department is Elon Musk and his PR team. I don't
| understand how people view him as an engineer, he's full of
| flim-flam and bluster.
| trothamel wrote:
| And also practical electric cars, reusable crewed rockets,
| and worldwide high-speed satellite Internet.
|
| Is it bluster when it can be backed up?
| extheat wrote:
| Yeah better not say anything at all. Don't want to end up being
| accused of "PR bullshit".
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| pvg wrote:
| Discussed at the time, 282 comment thread:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17237792
| tiahura wrote:
| The phone companies have the same policy.
| kringo wrote:
| That's the driving force behind these connected cars. They'll
| make you pay for the car and collect all the data they could and
| make the money off it.
|
| Compare it to google, they're valuable because of the data that's
| being stored about every individual, imagine the same thing for
| Tesla.
|
| Data is currency
| akerl_ wrote:
| Is Tesla selling any data/metadata? To whom? How are they
| making money off of my data?
| gcheong wrote:
| They're not selling it as far as I know, but you're
| essentially providing them with free training data for their
| autopilot/self-driving AI which they do/plan to make money
| off of. In that respect it seems odd that they would be so
| stingy in handing data over to the person that generated it
| though you can apparently purchase a connection kit to access
| the event recorder data for about $3k.
| jayd16 wrote:
| They offer insurance rates based on the data.
| digisign wrote:
| In this case it looks more like loss aversion, protecting
| themselves from customer lawsuits. I'm sure there are other
| use cases for the data. Self-driving improvements have been
| mentioned.
| NonNefarious wrote:
| I suspect that this policy violates some privacy provisions in
| some states and countries. Don't California (and probably
| other) laws guarantee you the right to obtain any data a
| company has on you?
| user00012-ab wrote:
| Why do people post "news" from 4 years ago? News mostly isn't
| relevant a few weeks later; it would make sense if their was some
| follow up story or something about this. Even weirder is how
| people comment on this story like it just happened, did anyone
| actually check to see if this is still the case 4 years later?
| [deleted]
| pvg wrote:
| Just flag it. The meta inadvertently helps make it a worse
| thread on top of a bad post.
| LegitShady wrote:
| popular to attack Tesla at the moment
| JaimeThompson wrote:
| It would be less popular it Tesla had leadership that lead by
| example instead of dictate and if they stopped making
| promises they can't execute on year after year.
| LegitShady wrote:
| that's not why a lot of the attacks on tesla are happening
| - the twitter acquisition and elon being political on
| twitter have opened him up to lots of people attacking his
| companies.
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| Tesla is very divisive, a lot of people get a sense of power
| and superiority by posting anything that makes them look bad.
| The subtext is "See? I'm smarter than you by hating Tesla."
|
| This isn't exclusive to Tesla.
| influxmoment wrote:
| 100%. Tesla hating brings out the crazy
| barkingcat wrote:
| there are also those folks who don't know large pieces of
| current events and keep surfacing 10 year ago news as actual
| news (and treat it as occurring now).
| digisign wrote:
| Things like this don't tend to change without force of law. Do
| you have proof that it has?
| ddtaylor wrote:
| I think it's historically interesting and people often miss
| stories from years ago.
| pvg wrote:
| There was a big Tesla quality and safety problems story
| yesterday
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31610950
|
| And there's one every week or two. The repetition kills
| interestingness
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31487646
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31479840
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31446523
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31430407
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31398021
| iamleppert wrote:
| If they don't have anything to hide, why not allow access to the
| logs? I highly doubt the 0-100 claim. Raw sensor data of the
| accelerator is likely to be sampled at a high enough rate that
| should make something like that impossible. In fact, the car
| should have at minimum a low pass filter and reject sudden
| accelerations like that, which would indicate sensor or signal
| failure. If it's a digital sensor, and sampled high enough, even
| if someone did "floor it", you'd still be able to see a gradual
| increase, just at a faster rate. When a sensor all of a sudden
| reports a huge, non-linear jump, it generally means there is some
| sort of failure. And if that's within normal operating
| conditions, the sample rate of the sensor isn't enough to tell
| the difference between failures and intentional (real) readings,
| and reject a failed sensor. And that's a problem too and 101 in
| any sensors and signals implementation. If it's a digital sensor
| on something as important as braking and acceleration, there had
| better be redundant sensors, a mechanism to fuse the data
| together, and reject a bad sensor from the state estimate of the
| pedal.
|
| Either way, just based on the statements they made anyone who has
| worked with anything robotics or autonomous can tell you that
| first instinct would be sensor failure. Of course, all of this is
| impossible to tell without the raw log data. Companies who are
| unwilling to provide such data or make it difficult to do so
| generally have something to hide in either their implementation,
| data quality, or the actual findings from the logs themselves.
| powerbroker wrote:
| I just did a quick scrape of the NHTSA consumer-reported
| complaints for all models of Teslas for the month of May. 78
| reports. 2 concern unintended acceleration.
|
| Mind you, 'unintended acceleration' reports come from all
| manufacturers and all models of cars -- so a fair starting
| position is that the driver mistook the accelerator for the
| brake. Nevertheless, it seems that giving the crash data promptly
| to the consumer would clarify to the consumer that they have 'fat
| feet', and settle the matter, at least in the consumer's mind.
|
| Incidentally, I narrowly missed getting hit by a lady who drove
| her car (non-Tesla) into a local Fedex-Kinkos, having left the
| store 5 minutes earlier, and returned 5 minutes after her car
| 'parked' inside the store.
| alexanderdmitri wrote:
| I'm not sure driver mistaking the pedals is a fair starting
| point with the amount of software involved now a days. Telsas
| push updates over the air that affect these sorts of things. In
| this article[0] for example, it's suggested a once optional
| feature that is now mandatory can be used for one pedal
| driving.
|
| [0] https://electrek.co/2022/05/25/tesla-updates-car-software-
| re...
| kentonv wrote:
| In my Tesla I've had the experience a couple times of trying to
| hit the break, but accidentally pressing both petals at once.
| When this happens, a notice appears on the dashboard saying
| both petals are being pressed and so the car has decided you
| intended to brake.
|
| I don't think I've ever had this problem in another car (though
| admittedly, probably no other car I've driven would alert me if
| I did). It seems like the petals are placed a little
| differently from most cars and this makes it easier to
| accidentally hit both petals. I wonder if the computer's
| detection of this condition and decision to prioritize braking
| is a new feature since 2018...
| anonymousiam wrote:
| It's interesting that all the accounts reported by Tesla indicate
| that ..."the accelerator pedal was abruptly increased to 100%."
| How likely is it that, even if by accident, the driver would
| fully depress the accelerator pedal? How many people fully
| depress the brake pedal when stopping? Usually while parking,
| there is no need to fully depress the brake because sufficient
| braking action is achieved with less pressure, and the car will
| come to a stop gradually instead of abruptly.
|
| Maybe they have a CAN bus problem, or a software problem that
| they do not want to reveal.
| IshKebab wrote:
| I'd say it's quite likely that people would fully depress the
| accelerator when they meant to fully depress the brake.
| Especially with cars with cruise control where your foot might
| not already be on a pedal.
|
| I don't think you need to reach for any more conspiratorial
| explanations when there's a blindingly obvious one available.
|
| It would be interesting to see the data just before - were any
| pedals pressed?
| GuB-42 wrote:
| Probably unrelated but if you have a manual gearbox, with a
| clutch pedal, when you are about to stop, you disengage the
| clutch to prevent the engine from stalling.
|
| Clutch pedals are operated with the left foot and meant to be
| fully depressed. If you are used to drive stick and switch to
| auto, you may accidentally hit the break hard with your left
| foot, as if it was the clutch.
|
| So if you see someone breaking hard at the red light for no
| reason, especially if it is a rental car just out of the
| airport, it is probably the reason.
|
| I did it, Most of my (European) friends who rented a car in the
| US did it too.
| bdamm wrote:
| The accelerator is actually two sensors, each independently
| sampling the pedal position.
|
| So, yes, not that likely that both fail simultaneously.
|
| In fact, the pedal is not even a Tesla part.
| potatochup wrote:
| The brake pedal is physically connected to a hydraulic
| cylinder. You need to be very strong to fully engage the brake
| pedal, such that many vehicles, when presented with a sharp
| brake pedal stab, will electronically increase the amount of
| brake pressure given (because the system assumes you want to
| stop, but the driver may not be strong enough/have the right
| feeling for where maximum pedal application is). If you did
| this at speed, you'd probably engage ABS which tends to mess
| with the force-feedback though.
|
| On the other hand, the accelerator pedal is just a sensor, it
| doesn't require as much force to fully depress. I'd estimate
| the force required to fully depress the accelerator pedal to be
| 1/3 of the brake pedal.
| anonymousiam wrote:
| It is my understanding that Teslas have regenerative braking.
| Are you sure that the brake pedal is physically connected to
| a hydraulic cylinder?
| Xorlev wrote:
| Regen braking works by letting off the accelerator, not by
| pressing the brake.
| vel0city wrote:
| Yes and no. A lot of EVs can do two different modes,
| where it "coasts" and mostly only starts the regen
| through the brake pedal. You're right though, from what I
| understand Tesla kind of forces the single-pedal driving
| mode.
| gcheong wrote:
| But if it's just a sensor, couldn't it be possible that
| sensor generates an erroneous signal such that it tells the
| car to accelerate when nobody actually pressed it?
| buro9 wrote:
| It would be interesting to see whether European Tesla owners can
| utilise the GDPR to obtain the data.
| bjelkeman-again wrote:
| I am convinced they can.
| t0mas88 wrote:
| If it's linked to an individual, they can. And I'm sure Tesla
| data is linked to an individual via their account.
| zoydnog wrote:
| Someone should try to send them a variant of that 'nightmare
| GDPR letter'.
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