[HN Gopher] In a small trial, drugs seemed to rejuvenate the bod...
___________________________________________________________________
In a small trial, drugs seemed to rejuvenate the body's 'epigenetic
clock' (2019)
Author : tayne
Score : 222 points
Date : 2022-06-04 02:32 UTC (20 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nature.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nature.com)
| gdudeman wrote:
| Before you run out to get some growth hormone, you should be
| aware that metformin seems to extend health span and life span
| quite effectively alone.
|
| Even people with diabetes live longer on metformin than a control
| group that is not on metformin.
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25041462/
| altgeek wrote:
| The issue with metformin is your own personal gastrointestinal
| sensitivity to it. If you're tried it in the past and quit,
| people have reported success with the time-released variant.
| See https://www.drugs.com/pro/metformin-extended-release-
| tablets...
| asimpleusecase wrote:
| I'm no fan of death, but death (by natural causes - age, sickness
| , accident) has been how different generations have gotten rid
| some of the worst despots.
| mrcartmeneses wrote:
| "The hate of men will pass and dictators die. And the power
| they took from the people will return to the people. And so
| long as men die, liberty will never perish."
| richardw wrote:
| Similarly:
|
| "Science progresses one funeral at a time".
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck%27s_principle
| D-Coder wrote:
| "Give me liberty AND give me death"?
|
| I'd prefer to solve the despot problem in a way that doesn't
| involve me getting dead.
|
| Several countries have managed to not have despots for long
| periods.
| Dudeman112 wrote:
| Sounds like a self solving problem.
|
| I reckon people will start caring about their despots if they
| expect to live a millennium under the despots' boot
| BurningFrog wrote:
| I suspect people not caring is not the main underlying cause
| of despots.
| DarylZero wrote:
| Despots make sure the people who care are killed off (or at
| least marginalized, say in prison), leaving only people who
| don't.
| r3drock wrote:
| I would not be so sure about that.
|
| If you were expecting to live a much longer life, people
| might grow more fearful about the consequences of speaking up
| against a dictator.
| johnlbevan2 wrote:
| Presumably 6 months later you'll have to put your body clock
| forwards again in time for Spring.
| swader999 wrote:
| Depends where you live.
| cerol wrote:
| If a cheap, reliable technique of halting or slowing down the
| "epigenetic clock" hits the market, and assuming its main effect
| on a population level is increased life span, wouldn't it make
| the demographics of most developed countries even worse?
|
| It's still unclear whether or not "automation" will compensate an
| ageing population, and prevent a demographic collapse. But having
| a pill that makes people live longer (even if it's 5 to 10
| years), wouldn't it be like throwing an entire gas station into
| the fire?
| forum_ghost wrote:
| > throwing an entire gas station into the fire?
|
| Why? Longer span can also mean longer healthspan.
| stevenjgarner wrote:
| If an ageing population has increased health span, they will
| also be able to work and contribute longer. "Population growth
| has declined mainly due to the abrupt decline in the global
| total fertility rate, from 5.0 in 1960 to 2.3 in 2020. The
| decline in the total fertility rate has occurred in every
| region of the world and is a result of a process known as
| demographic transition." [1]
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_decline
| Qem wrote:
| Depends on where the additional years are added. Around the
| middle of life or in its end.
| jamesblonde wrote:
| Epigenetics is fascinating. I just came back from a project
| meeting, where i work with people who discovered that HRT
| (hormone replacement therapy) slows down epithelial cell aging.
| Epithelial cells are the cells that cover all your vital organs,
| so they are important for aging.
|
| Now, there are even commercial companies that measure Epigenetic
| age of cells with a technique called DNA methylation.
|
| References:
| https://investinaustria.at/en/news/2022/03/epigenetic-clock-...
|
| https://www.mydnage.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwheyUBhD-ARIsAHJNM-Mrk...
| realitsflat wrote:
| DNA methylation is not a technique that can be applied. It is a
| biological system present in your cells silencing expression of
| genes that are not useful for a cells current behavior.
| Differently differentiated cells have different "genes
| methylated" and thus inactivated which govern their behavior
| and potential for further sub-differentiation. Indiscriminately
| "reversing methylation" would probably lead to a lot of
| "cancering".
| jamesblonde wrote:
| You don't apply DNA methylation - it is the basis for
| measuring epigenetic age. I mentioned HRT as one way of
| reducing epigenetic age for epithelial cells.
| realitsflat wrote:
| Right, just wanted to clear up the concept.
|
| The reference you gave measure blood or urine samples which
| would probably not be representative of epithelial cells.
| Also i like non-descriptive but professional looking stock
| photos of multi-pipettes and the ubiquitus vortex genie 2.
| Extra points for consecutive photos of the same tip-rack in
| obviously proffessional use.
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| Time to hit up my gymrat brother for some testosterone I guess!
| moonchrome wrote:
| Not sure riding high on dirty test (dosing TRT levels off
| toilet test going around gyms will be next to impossible)
| will slow down ageing - but it will probably make you juicy.
| Make sure to hit the gym to double the gainz.
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| Oh, forgot to add that my brother is also an MD resident ;)
| Although he's doing opthamology :/
| random_upvoter wrote:
| Isn't it weird how we were created by a supposedly "dumb"
| universe but yet we can't find the cheat code?
| mft_ wrote:
| Quite the opposite, I think?
|
| _Because_ the process is 'dumb' (as you put it) we evolved via
| chaos rather than order. It therefore follows that how we work
| is complex and disordered - and an easy 'cheat code' doesn't
| exist.
| giardini wrote:
| What are the 3 ingredients? HGH, possibly metformin and what
| else? The article does not clearly state.
| ceasesurthinko wrote:
| dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA)
| donthellbanme wrote:
| LinuxBender wrote:
| DHEA, Metformin and HGH.
|
| My personal preference is to replace Metformin with Berberine
| since I can get it online or grow it in a greenhouse and it is
| less likely to induce lactic acidosis. One can fast for 72+
| hours to get a massive spike in HGH. I am not a doctor and this
| is not medical advice.
|
| I also consume desiccated Thymus in capsule form following the
| "like improves like" theories.
|
| Here is a video discussing the latest results the article is
| talking about [1].
|
| [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KukRAXnNOJM
| giardini wrote:
| Thank you.
|
| Are you seeing results? And does it improve healing (skin and
| knee injuries here) ?
| LinuxBender wrote:
| I use these and many other molecules so my answer would be
| far from scientific. Anecdotally I can say that I heal
| faster than anyone I know of at or near my age. I also look
| and feel younger than anyone I know of at or near my age. I
| do not get sick and have no age related pain. There are too
| many confounding processes and molecules to attribute my
| results to these specific things however.
| giardini wrote:
| LinuxBender says
|
| _> " One can fast for 72+ hours to get a massive spike in
| HGH."<_
|
| Relevant URL:
|
| https://hrtguru.com/does-fasting-really-increase-hgh-levels/
|
| referenced articles therein say fasting 48 hours causes a
| 5-fold increase in HGH, fasting 5 days causes a 10-fold
| increase, but that 5 days of fasting also _makes the cells
| unable to utilize the extra HGH_ :
|
| _" Despite the fact that fasting may increase your growth
| hormone, it actually suppresses the anabolic effects of HGH.
| That's because fasting lowers the sensitivity of your cells
| towards HGH, and decreases its main anabolic mediator called
| Insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1).
|
| Thus you will not experience the benefits of increased HGH on
| muscle mass, energy levels, etc. ..."_
| LinuxBender wrote:
| Agreed. One has to cycle the fasting / exercising /
| rebuilding. Each trainer and nutritionist appear to have
| their own preferences to maximize this effect but they also
| have many confounding treatments and are usually already
| quite healthy.
|
| I would suggest researching this more on the PubMed nih.gov
| site as they get into a little more details and usually
| have decent controls in place in some of the studies. Their
| search function is awful so I suggest using the following
| on google to get better results:
| site:nih.gov "search terms"
| __warlord__ wrote:
| I'll be happy if two things happen:
|
| 1. I can have "better years" in the same lifespan. Lots of energy
| at 90 for instance.
|
| 2. I can increase the lifespan of my dog by 50 years :)
| more_corn wrote:
| I think daily exercise can get you #1 As for #2 Totally. We'll
| only show that we deserve longer lifespans if we solve it first
| for dogs.
| xiphias2 wrote:
| 90 is still an exceptional lifespan even if you take care of
| yourself. Human system breaks down randomly after the age of
| 70, and the complete breakdown depends on luck.
| gdudeman wrote:
| If you have a large dog, you can sign up for a lifespan
| extension study now with rapamycin.
| https://dogagingproject.org/
| [deleted]
| steeleyespan wrote:
| Exercise, fasting, and saunas are probably the strongest things
| we can control here.
| xwdv wrote:
| What does it really mean to rewind a persons age? Does hair get
| less gray, does skin get less wrinkly, does cartilage regrow?
| elihu wrote:
| This is a good question:
|
| > Horvath used four different epigenetic clocks to assess each
| patient's biological age, and he found significant reversal for
| each trial participant in all of the tests.
|
| Presumably the "epigenetic clocks" are correlated with age, but
| it's not clear if changes to the epigenetic clocks causes
| aging, or aging causes changes to the epigenetic clocks. (Maybe
| it's both?) Is this like overhauling the engine in an old car
| to make it function like new, or is it more like rolling back
| the odometer to make it seem new?
| refurb wrote:
| Exactly. And this is why the FDA won't approve drugs based on
| changes to biomarker (which is what these "epigenetic clocks"
| are) unless a direct link between that biomarker and a
| beneficial outcomes has been proven.
| moh_maya wrote:
| unless its for Alzheimer's? [0]
|
| 'The FDA's eventual decision to ignore the advice of its
| advisory committee and approve the drug, it says, was based
| on aducanumab's ability to lower levels of amyloid plaques
| in the brain -- protein clumps that some scientists think
| cause Alzheimer's.'
|
| ...
|
| With aducanumab, the agency has shown that it is willing to
| push the paradigm to a broader set of people. One reason
| that decision has attracted criticism is that decreased
| levels of amyloid plaques are an unvalidated and
| contentious marker of a drug's activity.
|
| In large trials of other Alzheimer's drug candidates,
| amyloid lowering has not led to cognitive benefits, and
| this has made it a sticking point for researchers.' [0]
|
| [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01763-9
| nick__m wrote:
| I wonder if those amyloid lowering drugs could have a
| prophylactic effect while having no curative effects. I
| would love to see a trial in people at high risk of
| Alzheimer...
| swader999 wrote:
| And human lifespan, the best meaningful outcome, is too
| long for any study to use.
| hericium wrote:
| I was expecting the article would be about nicotinamide
| mononucleotide (NMN)[1]. "Lifespan..."[2], a book on the subject,
| and more recent publications also mention rapamycin[3][4][5] and
| metformin[6][7][8].
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotinamide_mononucleotide
|
| [2]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifespan:_Why_We_Age_%E2%80%93...
|
| [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirolimus
|
| [4] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3972801/
|
| [5] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6814615/
|
| [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin
|
| [7] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7990352/
|
| [8] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31405774/
| SubiculumCode wrote:
| I thought for a second that this was a branch off of R.
| mtw wrote:
| Did they continue tracking health effects years after they study
| ? It's possible the drugs reversed the body clock but will
| accelerate it after. Much like coffee gives you a temporary
| boost, then makes you crash later
| beanjuice wrote:
| By what basis do you make this estimation? The factors for
| aging and feeling awake arent exactly comparable.
| DarylZero wrote:
| They're both cyclical.
| lallysingh wrote:
| How's aging cyclical?
| darkerside wrote:
| Can we add (2019) to the title?
| awsrocks wrote:
| narrator wrote:
| You can do this at home, except for the little inconvenience that
| growth hormone is a scheduled drug. I wonder what the results
| would be with just growth hormone. Let's ask Sylvester
| Stallone[1] who looks great for 75 and got caught trying to get
| into Australia with illicit Growth Hormone a while ago[2].
|
| [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvester_Stallone
|
| [2]https://abcnews.go.com/Health/ActiveAging/story?id=3176015
| pseingatl wrote:
| It has to be refrigerated, which makes travel difficult. Not to
| mention the hypodermics needed for intramuscular injections.
| thelittleone wrote:
| Growth hormone can be injected subcutaneously. They now come
| in convenient pens with adjustable dosage that are so fine
| you can't feel the prick. But yes, they must remain
| refrigerated.
| chefandy wrote:
| GH by itself decreases insulin sensitivity, aggravates insulin
| resistance, and may significantly increase cancer risk.
| thelittleone wrote:
| Insulin sensitivity and resistance are a non-issue if
| combining HGH with a low carb diet (such as keto) and
| fasting.
| cycrutchfield wrote:
| Ask Dave Polumbo
| nick__m wrote:
| You can significantly boost your growth hormone level by using
| nicotinic acid (Niacin) and exercise, have a look at figure 3
| in this paper
| https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysio...
| .
|
| According to that paper it doesn't have a significant effect on
| the performance during exercise but it has a large effect on
| the serum level of GH. However it should be noted that this
| experiment was conducted on young healthy men and I have no
| idea if Niacin have the same effect in women or older men.
| monus wrote:
| They're conducting a Phase II trial now with 85 participants, the
| completion date is set to November 2022.
|
| https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04375657
| losvedir wrote:
| I'm getting somewhat interested in this topic. How did you know
| about this trial? I'm curious what good news sources are to
| follow so I can see when the results are out.
| [deleted]
| Teever wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31577871
|
| This was a recent story that I wish had gained more traction.
| epicureanideal wrote:
| I saw this article recently that also claimed something called E5
| could roll back aging a bit. No idea of the merits of it.
|
| https://liveforever.club/blog/harold-katcher-s-e5-elixir-you...
| davidedicillo wrote:
| For anyone interested in the topic, I'd encourage reading
| "Lifespan" by David A. Sinclair. As someone with little to no-
| knowledge about aging (other than feeling the effects of aging on
| myself) I found it very instructive on how our aging clock works
| and what are some of the ongoing studies to slow down or revert
| aging.
| jeppebemad wrote:
| I can the recommend recent interview with him on the The
| Knowledge Project podcast. Had a lot of aha-moments listening
| to that.
| bredren wrote:
| Thanks for the tip.
| jamesblonde wrote:
| Sorry, but he oversells his work. He has not contributed so
| much on epigenetics, but rather nad as a supplement. He
| oversells nad as a longevity aid. However, he advocates
| intermittent fasting, and i heard from a epogenetics research
| leader that there is an ongoing trial for intermittent fasting
| reducing your epigenetic age. So sinclair is not wrong on that,
| probably.
| astrange wrote:
| This article is a bit old (like the other comment about missing
| year tag says).
|
| I think there's newer news that AKG, an easy to get and cheap
| supplement, has anti-aging effects with no known issues.
|
| https://www.science.org/content/article/bodybuilding-supplem...
| hilbertseries wrote:
| Anti-aging effects in mice*
| IshKebab wrote:
| We've got to be careful or we're going to end up with super-
| intelligent immortal mice!
| donthellbanme wrote:
| more_corn wrote:
| As long as we pair the world domination seeking, brilliant
| one with a lovable doofus we'll be ok.
| sam_lowry_ wrote:
| Put flowers on their grave
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowers_for_Algernon
| CPLX wrote:
| Don't forget Mrs. Frisby
| zeristor wrote:
| And her backing band the Rats of NIMH
| altgeek wrote:
| I always think of Don Bluth's "The Secret of NIMH" when
| experimental pharmaceuticals edge those lil' squeakers
| closer to being an uber-rodent.
| oldgradstudent wrote:
| Super intelligent, immortal, and free of cancer, diabetes,
| Alzheimer, and MS.
| ben_w wrote:
| And with a single giant ear on their back. Don't forget
| the giant ear.
|
| (Weirdly, just saw a breathless article talking about how
| 3D bioprinting obviates the use of rib cartilage that the
| human-ear-on-a-mouse 25 years ago was also supposed to
| end).
| gwern wrote:
| Not sure why you're skeptical. That ear is physically on
| the human woman:
| https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/02/health/ear-
| transplant-3d-... Even if it's rejected or otherwise
| fails later on, that's a long way from just-in-mice
| breathless talk.
| ben_w wrote:
| It's not so much scepticism as cynicism; it works, what I
| think it doesn't do is represent a radical (rather merely
| an incremental) improvement.
| Phrenzy wrote:
| Shh....! They can hear you!
| EarlKing wrote:
| Yes, but then we might get the answer.
| bornfreddy wrote:
| Getting the question might be a bit more challenging
| though.
| [deleted]
| zeristor wrote:
| Super intelligent?
|
| Meh, don't you mean Hyper-Intelligent pan-dimensional mega
| beings who commissioned the Earth?
|
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/profiles/1MmQjXrkwp98jNdc1
| 7...
| jeroenhd wrote:
| If we make these mice strong, smart, and immortal enough, we
| may convince them to find anti-aging drugs for humans as
| well!
| yojo wrote:
| I went down this rabbit hole a little. It does seem like the
| specific formulation of AKG _may_ matter. The commonly
| available supplements are L-Orthinine Alpha-Ketogluterate (OKG)
| and Arginine-Alpha-Ketoglutarate (AAKG).
|
| The study in question used Calcium Alpha-Ketoglutarate (CAAKG).
|
| There are a few sellers of CAAKG, but it is an order of
| magnitude more expensive than the others. (~$1.50/gram for
| CAAKG vs ~$.08/gram for OKG and ~$.05/gram for AAKG)
|
| There have been studies in the past (for non-aging conditions)
| that have demonstrated a difference between OKG and AAKG, so
| it's reasonable to assume there may be a difference between
| CAAKG and the others as well. Without a study, who knows.
|
| Also as other commenters have mentioned, the only evidence so
| far for aging related benefits is in mice. Of the human trial
| studies I could find for OKG use, it does seem like there were
| no reported side effects, so it might not hurt you, but it also
| might not do anything for you.
| nick__m wrote:
| That article says that AKG was 2% of those mice diet, that a
| lot of supplements if the dosage transpose linearly to humans!
| mbreese wrote:
| The actual paper is here [1]. And it's not quite as conclusive
| in mammals yet. But it sounds like there is a clinical trial to
| actually study the supplement, which is a welcome thing in the
| anti-aging world. I'm happy to read that this work came out of
| the Buck Institute in Novato, which is a solid research
| institution. It's also a beautiful campus.
|
| Disclaimer: I was there for a short stint as a postdoc a while
| back and not connected to this paper at all.
|
| [1] https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cmet.2020.08.004
| gniv wrote:
| That articles says "Alpha-ketoglutarate is a key metabolite
| in the tricarboxylic acid (TCA) cycle, and its levels change
| upon fasting, exercise, and aging."
|
| But there is no citation for this statement. Any idea where
| to read about how these levels change naturally?
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| 01100011 wrote:
| IIUC the epigenetic clock theory is BS. It's pushed by quacks
| like David Sinclair but is basically a red herring.
|
| i.e.
| https://twitter.com/CharlesMBrenner/status/14317765988275404...
| meowkit wrote:
| 1) There is no "epigenetic clock theory". There is an
| epigenetic clock though, and it's a well established system[0].
| They are talking about measuring a cellular "age" by measuring
| the methylation/acetylation tags on DNA and histones. These
| tags are essential for specialized cellular function and a core
| part of Horvath's/Sinclair's "epigenetic theory of aging".
|
| 2) Sinclair is not a quack, and to depict him as such doesn't
| help whatever opinion you're parroting. The guy has quite the
| resume, and obviously playing the social media game doesn't
| mean you should dismiss that.
|
| 3) Linking a tweet that essentially says "no you're wrong" is
| adding to the noise and isn't helpful. Brenner is saying
| reversing epigenetic age isn't going to make you immortal,
| which is true. It doesn't mean Sinclair's work is BS.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetic_clock
| throwaway742 wrote:
| Am I the only one who thinks immortality is a nightmare? I don't
| understand people who want to live forever.
| jallen_dot_dev wrote:
| I don't understand people who don't want to at least have the
| option. I mean, if it turns out you don't like living longer
| you could just opt out?
|
| As far as I can tell, "I don't want to live forever anyway" is
| just cope.
| lottin wrote:
| Getting old is a nightmare. You must be very young if you don't
| understand that.
| refurb wrote:
| When the supply of something is unlimited, it's value tends to
| approach zero.
| WHA8m wrote:
| Depends on how you'd define 'immortality' in your though
| experiment.
|
| I'd actually disagree with you - under the premise, you'd be
| able to end your life as you will.
|
| In that case, hell yes, I'm in for that. I'm in my mid 20s and
| the past years have been filled with burn-out, depression and
| literal still stand career-/ education- wise. I can now really
| grasp how short life actually is. It's so easy (I did it!) to
| actually waste a notable portion of your life span.We're
| talking more than half a decade. It gives me shivers. I have so
| many interests and I'm never bored. I can find interesting
| topics in any domain and if I could, I'd stay in university my
| whole life. So, to make this short, I'd be the ultimate dream
| of mine to not have to care about what to fill my life with. It
| steamrolls me and I get a lot of fear out of it. But not the
| fear that drives you, the fear that paralyzes.
| the__alchemist wrote:
| You say this now. How will you feel as your body gradually
| breaks down, and you stare into the void?
| throwaway2a02 wrote:
| Since there are people who end their own lives early, i.e.
| suicides, that position is clearly not unique.
|
| But I think it boils down to where you are in life. No-one
| would like endless suffering.
|
| As for my own stance on this, i wouldn't want this to happen
| simply because it will greatly exacerbate the gap between the
| haves and have-nots, the poor and the well-off. It will
| completely throw the current social equilibrium out of the
| window.
|
| And I'm mainly talking about life extension, since i find
| immortality a foolish/impossible goal.
| krageon wrote:
| I like to look at it holistically. If you don't want to live
| forever, your life is a rounding error anyway. May as well die
| today. Don't want to do that? Why do you imagine you want to do
| that in ten years?
| pawelmurias wrote:
| I don't understand fearing immortality and wanting to actually
| get old. It's a common theme in silly trite science fiction but
| never seen a good argument for why it's something to fear.
| swader999 wrote:
| Increasing functional span is compelling.
| jeppester wrote:
| One thing I rarely see mentioned in regards to living forever
| is that during a life you will accumulate mental scars.
|
| My wife has lost a sister, and she's witnessed a murder.
| Neither she nor I are the same after those experiences. I don't
| think we will ever be.
|
| If we lived forever I think we would all become more and more
| anxious and excentric as time progressed and our souls
| inevitably became more "scarred".
|
| Maybe it's a "challenge" that will also be solved - with memory
| erasure or what not - but it seems like an overlooked issue to
| me.
| derbOac wrote:
| I agree.
|
| I am starting to think we might reverse biological aging
| before we resolve psychosocial crises associated with it.
|
| It wouldn't be the first time humanity has introduced
| physical tools they weren't ready for.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| It's an interesting point. I forget the exact quote and
| source, but it's something like: living to a very old age
| requires great emotional strength, and is lonely, because you
| will see all those you love die.
|
| Getting to know your grandchildren and embrace their changing
| world is probably a good defence in this regard.
|
| To the extent I agree with the parent commenter about it
| being "a nightmare", the danger lies in exacerbating
| inequality. As with all medicines, those with access to life-
| improving medicines will be first world, wealthier people.
|
| But of course that's no good argument against progress, just
| an unfortunate short-term side effect of it.
| krageon wrote:
| > eccentric
|
| This is good. I always say rich people can't be weird, only
| eccentric. And chances are if you live for a long time, you
| have more money :)
| swader999 wrote:
| Or the difference between genius and insanity is the amount
| in your account.
| pawelmurias wrote:
| Time heals mental scars.
| jeppester wrote:
| It gets better over time, but not to the point of complete
| recovery.
|
| I think PTSD is a good example of that.
| ekianjo wrote:
| > If we lived forever I think we would all become more and
| more anxious and excentric as time progressed and our souls
| inevitably became more "scarred".
|
| Not sure, you could apply the same reasoning to people who go
| thru active wars: the first time they see someone die, they
| care, but by the time they see hundreds of people dead it
| does not matter to them anymore.
| goldenkey wrote:
| It matters to them but they tuck it beneath the surface.
| avgcorrection wrote:
| Isn't this Cartesian Dualism? The brain is part of the body
| and it might be possible to reverse damage to it.
| ben_w wrote:
| This is at best eternal youth, not resistance to all injuries
| and illnesses.
|
| We'd all still die at some point -- at current rates, even
| without ageing, 0.1% would die in any given year, though it
| isn't clear how that would change long term -- we just wouldn't
| get age-associated degeneration such as Alzheimer's and forget
| the concept of left and how to count past four like my mum did:
| https://kitsunesoftware.wordpress.com/2018/01/31/alzheimers/
|
| I don't know what you're imagining that makes you see a
| nightmare.
| ekianjo wrote:
| > Am I the only one who thinks immortality is a nightmare?
|
| Who's talking about immortality anywhere? It would be already
| great if you could die in great shape, not stuck on a
| wheelchair for years.
| philjohn wrote:
| Altered Carbon, and to a lesser extend Upload! touch on this
| dystopian part - the great leveller is that every billionaire
| will one day die - imagine if that wasn't the case, and they
| could keep hoarding wealth and having undue political
| influence.
| thelittleone wrote:
| What a pleasure to see Altered Carbon mentioned here. Amazing
| show.
| krageon wrote:
| If you take a step back you see that when they currently die,
| someone with roughly their money takes over. Good families
| keep generational wealth, so you will always be under the
| influence of some rich person. It is our modern royalty after
| all.
|
| Given that is the case and everything else being equal, I
| would prefer that exact scenario with an opportunity to live
| forever. Even if that means someone I don't like gets to try
| that too.
| ALittleLight wrote:
| Would you really want your parents to die, your loved ones,
| your family, your children, and yourself, all so you could
| have the satisfaction that at least rich people, and their
| loved ones, would suffer and die too?
| ben_w wrote:
| Many people are fundamentally motivated by fairness, and
| knowing someone else is getting more than they seem to
| deserve can violate that. Schadenfreude is a thing.
|
| Myself, I think that longevity treatments are unlikely to
| remain unaffordable to the poor for very long after they
| are invented -- even in a cynical world where the rich are
| greedy enough to try and keep it for themselves, old-age
| healthcare is _really_ expensive, so societies which cause
| this to be cheap will outperform those that keep it for
| just the powerful.
| D-Coder wrote:
| I suspect that in any society where this exists, the
| government will end up making it available for
| everyone... or will be voted out / overthrown for a
| government that will.
| fleetwoodsnack wrote:
| The individual rich are irrelevant, and this is a
| mischaracterization of the sentiment.
|
| Elite capture under the parameter of current human
| lifespans is extant and difficult to counteract. It stands
| to reason those negative consequences associated with elite
| capture would only be exacerbated under longer lifespans.
|
| It's simply an acknowledgment of a likely negative
| consequence.
| karmakurtisaani wrote:
| You might change your mind when you're older. And wealthier.
| [deleted]
| celim307 wrote:
| If my quality of life remains high and I can still choose to
| end things when I want, I don't see an issue. Then again
| there's probably psychological cost and I may end up a
| sociopath
| bowsamic wrote:
| HN is the only place where I've seen people purpose immortality
| as a legit goal. I think it's because of lack of religion. If
| you are existentially scared of death and you are a techie, it
| makes sense
| bawolff wrote:
| Immortality is literally the carrot that religion holds in
| front of its followers.
| steeleyespan wrote:
| That's "opiate of the masses" claim, but rather its removal
| of suffering and imbuing life with permanent meaning and
| purpose which isn't lost at the point of death (theosis).
|
| What is the point and purpose of life, beyond avoiding
| suffering and seeking pleasure? Even the ancient pursuit of
| honor and memory is rather ephemeral and lame.
| bowsamic wrote:
| I'm talking about the physical life, not the spiritual one
| bawolff wrote:
| Sounds like a distinction without a difference to me.
| bowsamic wrote:
| Why? They seem quite distinct to me
| veltas wrote:
| Not to self-own or anything but I'm religious and lots of
| religions have a message of immortality for the virtuous,
| e.g. Christianity, Islam. But our method of achieving it is
| spiritual, not technical. I think pretty much every normal
| person fears death right up to the end, unless they're
| seriously suffering in their body.
| bowsamic wrote:
| I'm a Buddhist and fear of death is one of the first things
| we work to get rid of
| inkblotuniverse wrote:
| I'm just not interesting in brainwashing myself to be
| suicidal
| bowsamic wrote:
| Spiritually suicidal maybe, but not physical suicide
| pawelmurias wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu - never
| underestimate how stupid some people are
| bowsamic wrote:
| Why is that stupid? Someone who is enlightened can no
| longer create karma, so it isn't really suicide
| DeWilde wrote:
| Why do you think fear of death is the only thing that
| motivates them? Have you considered other motives, like joy
| of live?
| inkblotuniverse wrote:
| Isn't the joy of life what makes its end scary?
| krageon wrote:
| I enjoy candy but that doesn't mean I want the taste to
| last forever.
| desertraven wrote:
| I tend to agree with you. In saying that, I wouldn't mind an
| extra 100 years. If we could invent a mechanism to avoid
| concentrated power/resources [1], I think humanity would be
| better off; for if we can mostly agree that "with age comes
| wisdom", we would surely be collectively wiser.
|
| [1] - The mechanism to avoid concentrated power is a drop in
| for many other things. For example, I believe if societal
| structures could effectively optimise for ethical behaviour,
| individuals would be less likely to crave for power lust and
| greed.
| bawolff wrote:
| I can't help but feel there is an element of self-justification
| in that sort of view.
|
| We can't stop death, therefore we tell ourselves its ok and
| something that we actually want, in order to cope with the
| terror of death.
| LinuxBender wrote:
| I do not believe it is always a nightmare. If one plans for a
| long health/life span and is always adding forms of diversified
| income then it is just a matter of hobbies.
|
| One of my personal goals is to tell the great grandchildren of
| people my age what their great grandparents were like since
| most of them won't write down the interesting bits of their
| lives and instagram/snapchat/facebook leaves a distorted image
| and may not even exist in the future.
| xiphias2 wrote:
| It was a great validation, that reversing epigenetics is possible
| in the human body, but using Yamanaka factors to do the same
| thing has much more investment dollars behind it (billions vs
| millions), so I believe it will be ready on the market faster.
| krageon wrote:
| If money was what it took to be correct in medicine, Theranos
| would be a huge success.
| xiphias2 wrote:
| Are you really comparing Theranos to the Nobel prize winning
| Dr Yamanaka, and the amazing group of scientists who have put
| their lives to work on cellular reprogramming?
|
| Of course it's more than just about money, it looks like it's
| the more efficient path, but there's a huge need in research
| to stop cells from losing their identity during partial
| reprogramming (and cause cancer).
| krageon wrote:
| > Are you really comparing Theranos to the Nobel prize
| winning Dr Yamanaka [...]
|
| I was responding directly to what you said, this is a
| strawman.
|
| > Of course it's more than just about money [...]
|
| This is not the impression I got from your post, because
| all you talked about was money.
| xiphias2 wrote:
| I think both approaches are amazing advancement for
| humanity, and I wish Greg Fahy would get more funding as
| well.
|
| Before Jeff Bezos came in, the money was really really
| missing from the longevity field that I have been
| following for the last 10 years since I've got a serious
| rare, but not deadly cronic illness.
|
| Maybe I've got a bit sad when you refered money as not
| the most important thing, because Gregory Fahy said
| during an interview that they had to stop the experiments
| because of lack of funding. They needed a few million
| dollars to run the experiments, which is nothing compared
| to the value they can provide compared to rejuvenating
| people. I was thinking of investing personally, but I'm
| too small to be an investor myself.
|
| Altos Labs being created is a huge deal, because when the
| technology works (and at this point there's no reason why
| it wouldn't), it can save the lives of literally billions
| of people. Maybe it's hard to see through my comments,
| but I truly care, and I'm hopeful that both of us (you
| and me) will be able to use it.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| It is not just money, but liberation of creative people
| from the bureaucracy and limitations that come with the
| public grant system.
|
| AFAIK the professors in Altos Labs get a million dollars
| yearly salary and they are free to dig into whatever
| matter they find interesting, as long as it is somehow
| related to biology of aging, rejuvenation, regeneration
| etc. No need to stay within relatively narrow limits of
| an approved research topic and produce X papers in a
| year.
| xiphias2 wrote:
| I didn't think about that part being a slowdown. The only
| interview I was able to find is that they are building a
| completely new lab in UK this year (one of the multiple
| locations), so it takes time to ramp up experiments.
|
| I'd love them to be more public about their plans. mRNA /
| viral delivery needs to be optimized of course, but there
| are lots of other parallel experiments they can start,
| and we probably have to wait for the publications.
| krageon wrote:
| I agree that having absolutely no money means you cannot
| do research of any reasonable magnitude. That doesn't
| mean that money has anything to do with how correct you
| are :)
|
| > I'm hopeful that both of us (you and me) will be able
| to use it.
|
| Me too.
| kalimanzaro wrote:
| Does anybody know if the East German sportsfolk doped HGH?
| According to a recent HN post, their lifespan got reduced by
| around a decade.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31591777
| jokowueu wrote:
| Teens there were give mega doses of multiple anabolics steroids
|
| Also hgh at a young age won't increase life span later in life
| anyways
| erosenbe0 wrote:
| HGH seems to increase insulin resistance so without other
| interventions (e.g. metformin) it may be pro-aging.
|
| Exceptional athletes in general may not have the same lifespan
| as age-matched healthy counterparts so not a good population to
| look at.
| mrnotcrazy wrote:
| So if I am understanding this right, this is turning back the
| epigenetic clock but not rejuvenating the individual? So it could
| help prevent aging but not reverse.
|
| As we age does our body act differently to make life easier as we
| get older? If so could this make life worse?
| machinelearn wrote:
| Believe this was posted on hn before, but this article is in-
| depth on the current state
|
| https://www.adanguyenx.com/blog/partial-reprogramming
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