[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Is there an "uncanny valley" effect with sta...
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Ask HN: Is there an "uncanny valley" effect with startup MVPs?
I am asking because I have noticed that as I build better landing
pages for my MVPs I get judged more harshly. This got me thinking
if there is a way in which having a not particularly attractive
landing page might get people to approach the product in a
different way.
Author : etewiah
Score : 146 points
Date : 2022-05-31 08:51 UTC (14 hours ago)
| dsugarman wrote:
| I think people probably do, I imagine it feels like a broken
| promise to them. My question would is why spend so much time on
| the marketing instead of the product? You need a core group of
| users to really love the product instead of a lot of people to
| kind of like it. It sounds like you got some users and a lot of
| feedback already which is awesome, I would get to work on getting
| the product really awesome for those early adopters who stick
| around. You can continuously market to those who didn't with
| every feature release so they see the rate of progress.
| wbsss4412 wrote:
| I think the metaphor works in a sense.
|
| The issue with your landing page is that it comes off as
| "designery" while at the same time not showing the polish that an
| actual designer would produce.
|
| I can see that you're trying, but it is clear that you don't
| quite grasp what the intent of the design elements is supposed to
| be.
| sideproject wrote:
| There is a reason why there exists an entire "landing page
| industry" because there is a level of science and art mixed into
| building it.
|
| If you think it's visually stunning without being informative or
| just pure information without attention-grabbing visuals, then
| you'll fall on either side of the hill.
|
| Then there are other factors including your target audience,
| copy-test, sentiment, color combinations etc.
|
| I've build many landing pages in my life time and I am not sure
| if I still get it. If you are optimizing for HN-audience, I would
| say it also requires a different strategy (e.g. demo first
| without signing up?)
| codeptualize wrote:
| I very much agree with this. I think approaching landing pages
| as storytelling makes them a lot easier to approach and
| understand (still hard to do well).
|
| Everything should be in support of telling the main narrative,
| while also keeping attention. It's a balance as you say; a dry
| story isn't very interesting, irrelevant attention grabbing
| isn't very interesting either (or very briefly to be followed
| by disappointment and confusion).
|
| What's challenging with landing pages is that for a lot of
| products the story of the product just isn't that exciting, you
| can add bells and whistles but that isn't going to make your
| story any more interesting. Finding a good narrative is imo
| half the battle.
| lifefeed wrote:
| Are you getting the same number of comments for better landing
| pages, but the comments are getting more detailed and nit-picky?
| thecleaner wrote:
| Do an A/B test. Please do share the results. :)
| etewiah wrote:
| Yeah, I probably should. In any case for the next Show HN I do
| I think I will deliberately have a lofi landing page and see
| how that goes ;)
| tyingq wrote:
| Might be fun to build a "Show HN" that serves up different
| pages to everyone that visits. Then watch us argue with each
| other about the merits of the product.
| naet wrote:
| Checking your actual landing page (
| https://propertywebbuilder.com ) and my opinion is... that it
| isn't a very good landing page. The sizing and spacing are
| awkward and blocky, your color scheme clashes with your images,
| the images are generic and tacky, everything is too big and wide,
| etc. Maybe because you worked on it you feel that it is a great
| modern style landing page, but that isn't how it reads to me (and
| seemingly to other people as well).
|
| Maybe you look at a SIMPLER site like https://tom.preston-
| werner.com/ and mistakenly equate that with a "worse" landing
| page. Actually though this simple page has bullet proof styling,
| and slapping some stock images on it like you did on your page
| wouldn't make it better, it would make it way worse.
|
| Rather than looking for an external factor like a "mythical
| uncanny valley" to explain your landing page's poor performance,
| look inwards at your individual styling and what could be
| improved.
| yupper32 wrote:
| Oh jeez, yeah that first site looks like an auto-generated
| scam/spam website. I'd never enter anything into that website.
| kristjansson wrote:
| W.. Why does a landing page have a loading bar?
| pantulis wrote:
| To be fair with OP, comparing Preston-Werner's blog to a
| landing page is not really an apples to apples comparison,
| imho, as the purpose is totally different.
|
| Still, OP has lots of work to do on that landing page, but not
| only on the design (there are a gazillion templates for that)
| but on how does it convey the value of the service it's
| offering. Also almost all clicks take inmediately to a login
| page without much explanation.
| wbsss4412 wrote:
| I think their uncanny valley metaphor is still apt in this
| situation though.
|
| They're trying to take design principles that are common among
| professionally designed webpages and apply them. They are,
| unfortunately, doing so quite poorly, and it is leading to a
| worse result.
|
| Edit: typo
| 8ytecoder wrote:
| Is it though? I'm not even a designer but I can see the color
| coordination isn't ideal and a bit harsh. Sections are not
| delineated clearly. There's isn't a clear separation between
| heading and body in styling. These things are designer 101.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| > color coordination
|
| > Sections are not delineated clearly
|
| > separation between heading and body
|
| Personally, when I open that site, I have no idea what it's
| about at all (yeah, it's something related to house-
| hunting). Only when I scroll down an entire screen-height,
| I get some high level explanation.
|
| All the things you noted are there, but I don't think
| fixing them would solve anything.
| wbsss4412 wrote:
| As I said, they are attempting to copy things that are
| common all over the internet, but doing so poorly.
|
| Do you not see how their current page takes design cues
| from professional pages?
| sertorius wrote:
| Not to pile on, but there's also a typo right on the first
| screen: "Lisitings". Also, inconsistent use of periods on
| bullet points.
| [deleted]
| bartread wrote:
| The worst part is that after you've added a property and
| clicked the big button you're forced to sign up or sign in. I
| can't even see whether or not the service is useful without
| creating an account and, with it, yet another vector for
| unsolicited communication (GDPR be damned, etc., and yes I have
| trust issues here).
|
| Maybe at least give me a taste of something useful before I
| have to sign up?
|
| I was much less bothered by the layout and colours.
| duped wrote:
| That's actually a feature and not a bug, a little activation
| energy is a great way to filter out people you probably can't
| convert to signups.
|
| But you still need a demo video at the very least
| arduinomancer wrote:
| Yeah that page needs a smaller maximum width and less
| whitespace
|
| It looks way too wide and spaced out on a regular desktop
| monitor
| sefrost wrote:
| When I click the "start house hunting now" button it directs me
| straight to a login page, with an error message. Which is
| annoying because I just wanted to see what the site actually
| does.
| evandale wrote:
| This is what stopped me from using the site. I went through
| the work to find a url for a house, pasted it into the box
| that claims "Get started by entering the url for a property
| you are interested in" and get a login screen. That's not
| quite what getting started means to me.
| sigg3 wrote:
| Get stopped.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| Oh, yeah. Your site not working at all is a known cause of
| low conversion rates.
| dailybagel wrote:
| Clicking "Start house hunting now" does all that, _and_
| breaks the back button functionality on Safari.
| bilekas wrote:
| > if there is a way in which having a not particularly attractive
| landing page might get people to approach the product in a
| different way
|
| The colour scheme is a bit jarring.. Some odd spacing choices and
| no real direction of what the service does.
|
| I'm pretty awful on my own with UI and UX, I rely heavily on
| others but when I'm in a pinch, I'll try find some inspiration on
| Behance or such. After years and years of outsourcing and
| studying other peoples work, I think I can notice what works and
| whats interesting new and what just seems off..
|
| Its definitely a marathon and not a race so don't take this
| negatively. Don't be afraid to rely on other people for it!
| ei8htyfi5e wrote:
| This is an issue with getting feedback on designs too. Wonder if
| there is overlap in the problem space.
|
| If you present pixel perfect designs for feedback, feedback is
| less specific because users think the product is finished.
| However, when it's a pencil sketch, users become critical and
| critique everything because they don't think anything is set in
| stone. I try to present LoFi everything until final sign off.
| jdvh wrote:
| Getting harsh feedback isn't so bad, really. You get that kind of
| feedback either because people think your MVP is something it's
| not or because of quality issues, and you can fix both.
|
| A bad landing page filters out people who are just moderately
| interested. They'll just close the tab and move on. That's going
| to skew the feedback you'll get.
|
| If you don't get (much) feedback at all you're in a much worse
| spot. Then you don't know if your MVP sucks, or it doesn't but
| your landing page sucks, or maybe both are fine but you're just
| not getting the right traffic. It's way harder to figure out what
| to do when nobody seems to care at all about what you've built.
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| Sound like you have a sophisticated audience who are used to
| overly slick and modern landing pages. There is a good book about
| knowing where your market is at [1] in terms of sophistication.
|
| [1] https://breakthroughadvertisingbook.com
| michaelscott wrote:
| This is partially why UX research typically starts with rough
| wireframes rather than full application design, even in front of
| clients. The idea is that the lack of fidelity forces the
| client/user to focus on the functionality of the app rather than
| the bells and whistles of the design (especially of the visual
| kind).
|
| The impression I think is that the more polished a product or MVP
| looks, the more "finished" it is and therefore the more open
| it'll be to criticism (there's literally more of the product to
| criticise). This could be a good thing, since it gives you much
| more insight into what needs to be improved for the final product
| MatthiasPortzel wrote:
| > the more polished a product or MVP looks, the more "finished"
| it is and therefore the more open it'll be to criticism
| (there's literally more of the product to criticise).
|
| I definitely agree with this, from what I've found both giving
| and reviving feedback.
| seanwilson wrote:
| > This is partially why UX research typically starts with rough
| wireframes rather than full application design, even in front
| of clients. The idea is that the lack of fidelity forces the
| client/user to focus on the functionality of the app rather
| than the bells and whistles of the design (especially of the
| visual kind).
|
| I've found the tricky stage to be when you're getting closer to
| high-fidelity but you're not quite there yet and need client
| feedback to progress. Caveating everything the client should
| "ignore for now" can be exhausting and sometimes doesn't work
| (e.g. they'll nitpick the things you don't need feedback on
| yet), but polishing everything to high-fidelity levels before
| you can show it is incredibly time consuming. Are there any
| interesting tricks at this stage?
|
| I also use the phrase "uncanny valley" for this in-between
| stage of design where there's a risk the client is going to
| harshly judge parts of the design that aren't ready for
| feedback yet. Is there another phrase for this?
|
| I'll usually try to gauge at the start of a project how
| receptive the client is to brainstorming over rough work
| because it's much more efficient this way.
| mrcartmeneses wrote:
| It really depends how strong the client brand is and how
| competent the client staff are that you're working with.
|
| But the important thing is to take an evidence-based
| approach.
|
| A good idea is to keep it low fidelity for as long as
| possible until the UX is worked out and tested. Then high-fi
| it along the brand guidelines.
|
| Then test test test, again.
|
| The best way of getting a good result for your client is to
| take an evidence-based approach where the initial product is
| set up as an experimental baseline and further improvements
| are tested against that baseline, be that through automated
| A-B testing or focus groups of representative users.
|
| Focus on getting something small to market as soon as
| possible and adding/improving features in an evidence-based
| way.
|
| If the client has feedback you don't like, test it anyway and
| charge them. They might be right.
|
| Focus group testing should take place before presenting to
| clients. Use paper prototypes with paper cutouts or using an
| app such as POP.
|
| Don't guess! Test!
|
| As a rule when doing UX you want three possible designs (one
| of which should be a bit "out there") and you should test
| each design with representative users. You learn a lot more
| from in person research than from A/B testing. A/B testing
| should always be used to verify changes or features. But you
| need to focus group at the design stage.
| seanwilson wrote:
| I agree with this but I was more thinking about the jump
| from low to high fidelity mockups for the MVP landing page
| scenario where there isn't strong branding yet and multiple
| phases of user testing for many design choices isn't in
| budget either. Even when the branding is strong, it's still
| useful to brainstorm with the client over work in progress
| for early feedback too.
|
| As an aside, what do you do when clients are resistant to
| doing user testing?
| endymi0n wrote:
| ...to the point that (great) UX and wireframing tools like
| Balsamiq look crappy _on purpose_:
| https://balsamiq.com/wireframes/
|
| Which all kinda makes sense, with the intuitive reasoning
| being: If you had time and money to sink into a pixel-perfect
| design, you're already one step beyond product-market fit, so
| creating a too good impression might not work in your favor.
| rsweeney21 wrote:
| If I could offer some advice from the perspective of a developer
| that has built several MVPs and done all my own design work.
| (FWIW Two of my MVPs made it to real businesses generating over
| $1M in ARR each.)
|
| Find a product that has a design you want to emulate and just
| copy it. Copy the colors, font styles, font sizes, element
| spacing, drop shadows...everything. For the illustrations or
| other content that is copy protected, just buy something that
| looks similar from shutterstock or some other website. I've
| followed this model repeatedly.
|
| Design is important because a polished website can make you look
| like you are a larger, well established company. But it's not
| worth your time as a founder to master design.
|
| That being said, the design on propertysquares.com looks
| amateurish and makes me feel like you are small.
| Normal_gaussian wrote:
| Be careful with that copying. All that you are telling them to
| copy is in fact implicitly copyrighted and forms part of the
| deliberately designed image of the pages. Be particularly
| careful copying from any company in the same space.
| nkrisc wrote:
| My experience presenting designs of various levels of fidelity,
| is this:
|
| If the design appears _obviously_ incomplete or unfinished, much
| critical judgement is withheld since it 's assumed that whatever
| criticism they have will be addressed by the final design.
| Depending on your goal, this can be helpful or even
| counterproductive (maybe the finished design _won 't_ be how they
| assume it will be). Or others will instead focus on high-level
| feedback like addressing the overall theme and direction instead
| of the minutiae of the design.
|
| If the design appears highly polished, then any issue, however
| minor, is assumed to be "finalized" and thus the criticism pours
| out.
|
| If you make it appear completed, then people will assume it is in
| fact completed. If you're still working on it, make it look
| clearly unfinished.
|
| However, no matter how much you stress it is a prototype or make
| it look as such, _someone_ will still criticize the the fact it
| 's all in black and white and all the text says "Lorem ipsum".
| ohwellhere wrote:
| Some app prototyping[0] have a "sketch" style that draws wobbly
| lines in order to simulate this and promote this effect.
|
| I've seen it first hand numerous times. Even if a
| client/audience feels the need to offer feedback/criticism
| ('cause they always do) the level of polish even affects how
| they frame the feedback/criticism.
|
| [0]: and data charting tools, presumably more
| ab_testing wrote:
| So back to geocities style page with an under construction gig.
| :)
| tannerc wrote:
| This is exactly right.
|
| I believe we're conditioned to understand various fidelities of
| information based on the principles of design. These
| fundamental principles--things like contrast, balance,
| proportion, hierarchy, motion, and variety--help us determine
| how to interpret what we experience.
|
| For example: a webpage that has clear hierarchy of information,
| is visually balanced, uses motion to attract attention and
| convey concepts, is much more likely to be interpreted as a
| final product. Whereas a page that is a bit disorganized may be
| understood as in early development.
|
| The problem is most landing pages are one page, so the creator
| invests considerable time in making them look and work well,
| leading to the perception of a complete project.
|
| Then when the time comes to build a fully functional
| website/product, there's a lot more to invest in and so less
| time is spent.
|
| Paradox of shipping an MVP product or business, I guess.
| ilikeitdark wrote:
| I'd personally get rid of the expression "dead simple". Dead or
| any other negative words should be avoided.
| brudgers wrote:
| To get to a MVP, the focus should be on making the product better
| not the landing page better.
|
| Making the landing page better is easy pretend work.
|
| Making the product better is hard real work.
|
| Good luck.
| etewiah wrote:
| So, some explanation is due here. My site is not ready for a
| public launch yet - I just made this post because of what I found
| out from testing with a small number of my friends. A few people
| followed my profile to find out what I am working on and now the
| cat's out of the bag - on the one hand I'm happy for the
| publicity but on the other hand I'm bummed that I'm not ready for
| it.
|
| Believe me, the site was worse a few weeks ago - or at least a
| lot more basic. The feedback I got from the few people I showed
| that site to was quite positive though. As I made what I thought
| were improvements though I started getting more and more negative
| feedback hence the observation in my original post.
|
| True, some of what I thought were improvements probably made the
| site worse. The lesson I've learnt is still valid though - I
| should have paid someone early on in the product development
| stage to take care of the UI.
|
| I will pay someone this week to do that and hopefully launch
| properly sometime in June. I bet when I actually do a "Show HN"
| with a decent looking landing page it will not garner as much
| interest as this has - people love picking out mistakes!
|
| Still, a big thank you to everyone who has provided feedback.
| I've fixed the obvious errors. Will tackle the others when I get
| the chance.
| codeptualize wrote:
| I do think there is something like the uncanny valley effect. The
| distinction is likely "no design"/minimalism vs "bad design".
|
| Some pages show very clearly that the focus was not on designing
| a good looking appealing page, either minimal on purpose, or just
| a bit dated (like hackernews, or old reddit). Not bad, it's
| familiar, functional, fine.
|
| Other pages are designed to do other things; for example evoke
| desire, excitement and/or delight (like Apple, Stripe).
|
| Then there are pages that want to be Apple, but don't quite
| succeed. A lot of websites that use Bootstrap or material design
| are like that. It's superficial design, they have some of the
| styles, but it's very clear there is a lack of design, lack of
| storytelling, lack of substance. It's a bit cringy to look at, it
| evokes negative feelings.
|
| That doesn't mean all is lost, even experienced designers often
| go through that phase in the design process, they just are
| unlikely to release it haha. Keep asking yourself questions; What
| do I want it to do? Why isn't it doing it right now? Why does it
| look off? Look at examples that do achieve what you want, what
| exactly is it that is different? Etc etc. And then iterate,
| iterate, iterate.
|
| Design often looks simple/obvious, but it takes a lot of
| practice, perseverance and struggle to get good at it.
| samwillis wrote:
| I can't find it now, but I remember reading about 10 years ago
| about how long and ugly landing pages convert better. Now, I
| wouldn't necessarily subscribe to that theory, but it's an
| interesting one.
| marban wrote:
| You mixed up pure and objectively ugly with ugly by design and
| unique.
| bryanph_ wrote:
| Here's a weird take: because the landing page is so vague the
| user doesn't know whether the app is useful or not so the user
| will sign up just to take a look at the app to figure out what
| it actually is. Once the user realizes it isn't for them they
| bounce. So higher signup rate, higher bounce rate in this case?
| Total baseless speculation here :D
| password4321 wrote:
| https://hn.algolia.com/?query=lingscars&sort=byDate&type=com...
| a_square_peg wrote:
| I think there is definitely an 'uncanny valley' with web pages
| and why UX-designers exist.
|
| When a non-designer makes an update, there is always something
| off, whether it's the font, color-scheme, or sizing that's quite
| apparent. I'm not a designer myself but I think I can tell when a
| website had a lot of effort put into the initial design but not
| so much on maintenance and content updates - something always
| seems a bit off.
| laurencei wrote:
| "I have noticed that as I build better landing pages for my MVPs
| I get judged more harshly"
|
| Can I ask - why do you think you are building a "better" landing
| page? If you are getting judged more harshly, doesnt that mean
| your pages are not actually "better"? Maybe as you are building
| more pages, your subjective opinion of your own designs has
| changed....
|
| I've seen it a few times on MVPs launched here. Some new YC
| company and their flashy homepage, but when I browse the homepage
| I have no idea _what_ the company _actually_ does. The pages are
| clean, but the actual idea is vague...
| etewiah wrote:
| I should have phrased it better. By "better" landing pages I
| meant more polished with well thought out fonts, colors, text
| etc.
| rapnie wrote:
| Maybe just adding some lines of clarification on the state of
| your MVP is enough to bring back expectations to a more
| appropriate level ( _" Currently we have [this], for [these
| reasons]. [Here's] what is on the roadmap"_).
| zupa-hu wrote:
| Problem is, people don't read before forming a first
| impression.
| marcinzm wrote:
| Design does not live in a vacuum. The landing page of a
| children's game is going to be different than that of a B2B
| SaaS product. The point of a good design is to convey the
| brand and a message around the brand rather than to just
| "look good." If you're an MVP then part of the message is
| likely that you're an MVP.
| krono wrote:
| People don't want a drill, they want a hole in their wall.
|
| To me, "better" means more effective i.e. higher conversion
| rate, wider reach, etc.
| mrcartmeneses wrote:
| I have two drills: A cordless Makita that be do almost
| anything including being used as a driver and will go all
| day long without charge; and a corded Bosch that can go
| through concrete and stone like butter. I do use them to
| put holes in my wall. But I value them for being fucking
| awesome drills too
| Majings wrote:
| I think the implication is that the product/application which
| the landing page is promoting is being judged more harshly,
| rather than the landing page itself.
| IMSAI8080 wrote:
| But it may be the "better" landing page is less clear, which
| makes it more frustrating to understand the product, which
| has a side effect of causing a negative opinion of it. So in
| this case the landing page is not better because it's failing
| in it's core job of communicating the product.
|
| It's common design these days to have landing pages that are
| a giant photo with huge text where you have to scroll for for
| a mile to be rewarded with nothing but platitudes and
| hyperbole, one sentence at a time. The simpler page which
| actually explains the product functionality and the pricing
| in clear language on one page would be better from the user's
| perspective.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I worked (in the US), with a French guy, who had lived in the US
| for many years (as an adult).
|
| He had very little accent. He had obviously worked very hard to
| remove the accent (big job), but he still understood English as a
| secondary language, and sometimes had difficulty comprehending
| dialogue (especially in New York, where we talk quickly).
|
| People didn't cut him slack for the lack of comprehension, where
| I think they would have, if he had a stronger accent.
|
| I also knew an Italian, who had a strong accent, but a better
| command of English than most native speakers. I think he
| deliberately played his accent up.
| marban wrote:
| Famous people 'trademark' their deliberate accent all the time.
| From Schwarzenegger to Wolfgang Puck, etc
| DonHopkins wrote:
| I love Jesse Jackson's eloquent preacher's Black sermonic
| tradition!
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1mqg4C0awA
|
| >Green Eggs and Ham narrated by the Reverand Jesse Jackson
|
| >What was great about this skit was that absolutely nobody in
| that studio even knew Jesse Jackson was there outside of
| Kevin Nealon who anchored Weekend Update and Lorne Michaels.
| It was a great surprise to everyone and completely
| unscripted. Jesse just absolutely nailed that reading.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_sermonic_tradition
| QuercusMax wrote:
| Amusingly enough, Schwarzenegger's Austrian accent is the
| German version of a hillbilly accent or something, so in
| German dubs of his movies, they use a different voice actor.
| I'm told Germans think watching his movies in English is
| weird because his voice is "wrong".
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| They liked him in Japan:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRLe826lyao
| Maultasche wrote:
| When I lived in Germany, I saw a video clip of Arnold
| speaking German. To my great surprise, he had the same
| accent when speaking German that he does when speaking
| English. He apparently speaks a regional dialect from the
| part of Austria he comes from, and it really affects how he
| sounds.
| simonebrunozzi wrote:
| Italian here. Great English language skills, lived in SF for
| ~10 years until 2020.
|
| A great trick is to keep some of your accent, so people would
| know for sure you're a foreigner, but also surprise them with
| words that only the most literate people would know.
|
| How to do it? Easier if your native language is Italian and you
| studied Latin at school. There's hundreds of words like that
| that naturally come to you as the ones you would use if you had
| to say the same thing in your native Italian language.
| [deleted]
| raverbashing wrote:
| I agree.
|
| I'd say I have met a lot of native speakers that, while
| obviously native, have poor vocabulary skills (and also make
| some grammar mistakes - but not the ones the ESL students
| usually make)
|
| It's not surprising to have people that have trouble with
| words like rotund, pulmonary, saturnine, among others. (Or
| the usual mistakes like "should of", "it's" when they mean
| "its", etc)
| solveit wrote:
| > Or the usual mistakes like "should of", "it's" when they
| mean "its", etc
|
| Incidentally, these (or at least the first) are the
| mistakes that _only_ native speakers and very fluent people
| make.
| SenHeng wrote:
| Foreigners in Japan have the same issue. Pretend not to speak a
| lick of Japanese and you'll get great service. Speak just a
| little and suddenly they think you can read Archimedes (or the
| Japanese equivalent).
| null_object wrote:
| > Pretend not to speak a lick of Japanese and you'll get
| great service.
|
| Same here in Sweden: I look South European, so if I speak
| Swedish I'm just a 'foreigner', if I speak English I'm a
| tourist who should be impressed by how welcoming and friendly
| the locals are.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| wasmitnetzen wrote:
| As a German in Sweden, asking "Do you speak English?" in
| Swedish works very rarely. Apparently my accent isn't bad
| enough. I'm now usually asking "Can we speak English with
| each other?" (in Swedish) which I find a bit more rude, but
| works a lot better.
| telesilla wrote:
| I do the same, it works the world over. Especially if you
| go the extra mile to learn to say "I am learning, but
| your language is challenging and I know you will have a
| better command of English" which serves to flatter and
| gets you great service.
| marban wrote:
| They're also aware how difficult it is to learn so you get
| the extra props for trying. My wife learned Japanese to full
| professional proficiency and we basically get the extra
| acknowledgment all the time.
| bitwize wrote:
| My experience was the opposite. Pretend to speak no Japanese
| and you will get baffled looks and maybe asked to leave the
| store. At best you will be treated a little coldly. Speak a
| little and they will be most accommodating. They will help
| you fill in the gaps of your language knowledge and do their
| best to make your experience in Japan smoother.
|
| Overall, Japanese people really are culturally and
| linguistically fairly isolated on their little island chain
| -- _and they hate it_. One of the upshots of this is that
| fluent or even conversational English speakers are quite rare
| in Japan; and another is that anything and anyone from
| "overseas" is a potential source of fascination and wonder.
| (A little scary, too.) So when it comes particularly to the
| young (< 50 y.o. give or take), as a foreign tourist you will
| find yourself surrounded by people mildly to extremely
| intrigued in making a cross-cultural connection -- seeking a
| "borderless feeling" -- but they have no idea how. With a bit
| of conversational Japanese, you can establish lines of
| communication with the Japanese you meet and kick off that
| connection process, for which they will be quite grateful.
|
| At the very least, learn how to ask for an English speaker if
| one is available. I did this once in a frozen yogurt shop,
| and was introduced to the manager, a 22-year-old who wanted
| to tell me all about her time as an exchange student in
| California (as well as how to buy yogurt in the shop).
|
| Of course, this was Osaka. So maybe they were just super-
| accommodating to me so they would get my business. (By
| comparison to Tokyo, Osaka is hustle town -- matters of
| decorum and cultural appropriateness can be put aside if it
| means more business.)
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| _Of course, this was Osaka. So maybe they were just super-
| accommodating to me so they would get my business. (By
| comparison to Tokyo, Osaka is hustle town -- matters of
| decorum and cultural appropriateness can be put aside if it
| means more business.)_
|
| LOL this is my experience in Taiwan. I find my Mandarin is
| miraculously much better at the night markets than it is
| when asking directions.
|
| Honestly I love being a poor mandarin speaker in Taiwan. I
| am pretty sure a good chunk of the population has better
| english than my mando, but if I start with madarin they
| will respond in kind 90% of the time. My theory is that
| they're happy for me to struggle with a language than to do
| the same themselves - fine by me, great opportunity to
| practice!
| bitwize wrote:
| > My theory is that they're happy for me to struggle with
| a language than to do the same themselves
|
| Relatedly, and famously, Shigeru Miyamoto takes interview
| questions in English and understands it fairly well, but
| responds via interpreter simply because the idea of
| people hearing him struggle with English embarrasses him.
| wccrawford wrote:
| My wife and I went to Tokyo, and it stayed in a hotel by
| Disney. We spent like 4-5 days in Tokyo itself, and another
| 4-5 at the Disney parks.
|
| My experience, everywhere in Tokyo from small restaurants to
| Disney, was that everyone was nervous to try to speak English
| with me, but willing to try. Even the waitress at one
| restaurant that clearly didn't speak much English.
|
| When I tried to speak Japanese, they were _delighted_. My
| language partners have highly praised my accent, which I
| understand to mean that I 'm not completely horrible. And I
| have a decent basic vocabulary and horrible grammar.
|
| I have had some instances (both in Tokyo and with my language
| partners who were _not_ in Tokyo) where they suddenly started
| talking way above my level, and I had to ask them to explain
| things, but I think that 's just the weirdness of talking to
| a full grown adult that speaks like a child, and trying to
| manage that situation.
| imadethis wrote:
| The Ri Ben Yu Shang Shou desune! (lit. your Japanese is
| good) phenomenon. You know you've made it when your
| Japanese stops getting complimented. Obligatory Dogen:
| https://youtu.be/Qmfipv-H4_o
| senko wrote:
| I believe this is true for most languages.
|
| I've had the same happen (and then stop happening, to my
| delight) to me with English (non-native speaker with
| fairly strong Eastern European accent).
| throwawaymaths wrote:
| Except french (in Paris and Quebec -- _some_ other parts
| of France do this IME, no clue about the rest of the
| francophone world)
| loufe wrote:
| What do you mean to say here?
| t_mann wrote:
| > My language partners have highly praised my accent, which
| I understand to mean that I'm not completely horrible.
|
| Not trying to be mean at all, but one should be careful
| with such assumptions, especially in a country like Japan
| that that abounds with social norms and codes that
| foreigners are almost guaranteed to get wrong.
| wccrawford wrote:
| You're correct about being careful about assumptions
| about culture, but I'm not assuming much here. I've been
| told and read many times that that's what that means.
| dpifke wrote:
| I got really frustrated the first time I spent an extended
| period of time in Germany, and was trying to learn German.
| Every time I tried to practice the language, native speakers
| would immediately switch to English.
|
| I assumed this was because my German sucked.
|
| Someone finally explained to me that my beginner German was
| fine, but most people relished the opportunity to practice
| their English.
|
| I learned to just keep going in broken German, my
| conversation partner in broken English. For the most part, it
| worked.
| theturtle32 wrote:
| I'm trying in earnest to learn Spanish, and am at
| intermediate level. I've had similar experiences trying to
| use Spanish in various contexts particularly in Southern
| California where I live, where there are a ton of native
| Spanish speakers that also speak English, and most of them
| speak FAR better English than I speak Spanish. Years into
| my language-learning adventure, I continue to feel super
| intimidated to try to use my Spanish here, locally, because
| people so often compliment my accent but the conversation
| quickly switches to English. I always feel like I'm
| creating frustration and inconvenience by trying to
| practice my Spanish, though it could just be my nervousness
| and desire to people-please that lead me to feel that way.
|
| I've had more of this kind of experience (Me speaking
| intermediate Spanish, with my conversation partner speaking
| intermediate English) in places outside of my home area
| where people are more likely to speak Spanish than English
| on a regular basis: a range of Latin American countries
| that I've visited, and especially when I visited the U.S.
| territory of Puerto Rico.
| codethief wrote:
| You should come to southern Spain. Here, no one speaks
| English.
| Maultasche wrote:
| I had the same experience when I was doing an internship in
| Germany. One particular coworker kept speaking English to
| me, despite everyone else speaking German to me. At this
| point, I had lived there for a year already and spoke
| German pretty well, so comprehension definitely wasn't an
| issue.
|
| I think he was either used to speaking English with non-
| Germans or just liked having the opportunity to speak
| English.
|
| I just kept replying in German and he eventually switched
| to speaking German to me.
| TomK32 wrote:
| As a German it took me quite some practice to get over this
| nicety and stick to German when talking with a foreigner
| who's bad at German but knows decent English.
| t_mann wrote:
| There might be something else at play too - it's probably
| harder for them to remind themselves to slow down / speak
| in a sufficiently 'textbook-like' style in their own
| language than it is for them to switch to English.
| robocat wrote:
| Off-topic, but perfect comedy sketch on exactly that - see link
| in comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31498200
| thefz wrote:
| > I also knew an Italian, who had a strong accent, but a better
| command of English than most native speakers. I think he
| deliberately played his accent up.
|
| Italian here with a decent grasp of the English language.
|
| 1) some sounds are harder to learn how to pronunciate,
| especially for American English, and especially 'R' based ones
|
| 2) with time I've grown fond of my accent and wear it as a
| distinctive badge. Most of my English speaking, European
| colleagues do the same. Everyone has their own and it makes
| part of our personality.
| gnicholas wrote:
| > _1) some sounds are harder to learn how to pronunciate,
| especially for American English, and especially 'R' based
| ones_
|
| I would never correct this in a different context, but the
| word you're looking for is simply "pronounce".
| solveit wrote:
| or "enunciate", which I guess is what got mixed up.
| cma wrote:
| Enunciate is wrong here I think, enunciating a word is
| saying it kind of slow and clear so someone can better
| understand how it is pronounced.
| itronitron wrote:
| I'm curious to know when you first considered yourself to
| have an accent.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| _> 2) with time I 've grown fond of my accent and wear it as
| a distinctive badge. Most of my English speaking, European
| colleagues do the same. Everyone has their own and it makes
| part of our personality._
|
| I like that. My acquaintance used to have to peel the girls
| off him.
|
| I have a very strange accent, that has been stepped on, by
| many years of traveling.
|
| As a child, I had a British accent, then, I lived in
| Maryland, and got a slightly "Southern" accent. I have lived
| in New York for the last thirty years, so that has also
| affected my accent.
|
| Plus, I have a scratchy, high-pitched voice, anyway (vocal
| cord damage, as a kid).
| ohwellhere wrote:
| I am American and have a slight Southern/rural USA accent
| (much less slight when visiting family), and the responses
| I get vary so wildly. Some Irish women I met in a bar
| absolutely loved it, while in big cities in the USA I am
| sometimes assumed to be an absolute moron.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I get that, a lot, around here; especially when I say
| "howdy!".
|
| In the real South, Marylanders are considered damn
| Yankees.
|
| In New York, we're considered damn rednecks.
| zasdffaa wrote:
| I'm a brit, I don't know much about stuff, so, what is
| implied by 'yankee'? I wasn't aware it was still used -
| Is it an insult? And something to do with the civil war?
| Why are you considered a 'damn Yankee' by Marylanders?
|
| I assumed redneck was an insult but it seems not always
| from what I've heard. I guess it is here. But what does
| it mean?
|
| These may seem odd questions but I truly don't know. TIA
| [deleted]
| ilc wrote:
| "Yankee" is a term used in the south for a northerner.
|
| It is usually not used a positive way.
|
| Much the same, "redneck" is not meant in a positive way
| up north.
|
| As with many insults, the group the insult is hurled at
| can own it, and take it up as a term of almost
| endearment.
| mhink wrote:
| tl;dr- the joke here is that a Southerner would think
| Maryland is "the North", and a Northerner would think
| Maryland is "the South".
|
| "Yankee" is/was a derogatory term for Northerners, most
| typically used by Southerners during the Civil War and
| Reconstruction eras. If you want to get technical, it
| applies most strongly to New Englanders, but when used by
| a Southerner, it's a pretty broad brush. Nowadays, you'd
| be hard pressed to actually find someone using the term
| "yankee" in any sort of serious or angry way. It's much
| more common to hear it in a tongue-in-cheek way, which is
| how the parent commenter was using it.
|
| "Damn Yankee" is something of a stereotypical phrase you
| might hear from that time period, especially
| Reconstruction, when there were still a lot of hard
| feelings about the war, as well as about Northerners who
| moved south to participate in Reconstruction, often known
| as "carpetbaggers" and who were thought of as
| profiteering from the situation.
|
| But nowadays it's more of a cultural joke, or meme. Like
| for example, if someone were to recommend me a barbecue
| restaurant in, like, Vermont or something, I might say "I
| don't know if I trust a damn Yankee to make good
| barbecue!" (To be fair, I would have very low
| expectations all the same. Barbecue just isn't the same
| outside the South.)
|
| As for "redneck": it's still something of a disparaging
| term, and connotes poverty, poor education, and general
| backwardness. It's sorta like the word "hillbilly" or
| "country bumpkin", except with a more distinctly Southern
| vibe. However, it's been partially reclaimed and is often
| used by country folks to refer to themselves.
|
| However, it's not exactly a term used only by
| Northerners- it wouldn't be at all surprising to hear
| (for instance) a Southern doctor or lawyer grumbling
| about "a bunch of stupid rednecks" causing trouble.
| axus wrote:
| Washington, DC is the city of Northern charm and Southern
| efficiency.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| _> Washington, DC is the city of Northern charm and
| Southern efficiency._
|
| Man, I wish I could multi-upvote...
| i_am_jl wrote:
| Some background before I answer your question:
|
| Between the "North" and the "South" on the Eastern
| seaboard there is a central area that is in some ways
| renounced by both "regions". There's _some_ remainder of
| the Civil War /Mason Dixon line there, but it doesn't
| follow that delineation today.
|
| For example, in New York someone who grew up in rural
| Maryland would likely be viewed culturally as a
| "Southerner". But so would someone from Western
| Pennsylvania. So would someone from West Virginia,
| despite West Virginia and Pennsylvania being part of the
| Union. People in the Deep South would view residents of
| these areas as "Yankees".
|
| In both cases what is meant is that "Your cultural
| experience is different enough from ours that you're not
| 'us', you're 'them'." where 'them' is Southern or
| Northern, wherever you're not. The thing is, there's a
| big chunk of the mid-Atlantic seaboard that is unique,
| not traditionally Southern or Northern.
|
| "Redneck" is usually pejorative for a working class,
| white, Southerner. When rednecks say "redneck" it usually
| isn't an insult, but when others use the word it usually
| is. Calling somewhere a "Redneck bar" is fine, but
| calling someone in that bar a "redneck" is usually not.
|
| "Yankee" is just a term for Northerner. I'm sure you
| could say it as an insult, and I'm sure some people think
| "yankee" is an insult, but if someone calls me a yankee
| I'd happily agree with them.
| antod wrote:
| _> "Redneck" is usually pejorative for a working class,
| white, Southerner. When rednecks say "redneck" it usually
| isn't an insult, but when others use the word it usually
| is. Calling somewhere a "Redneck bar" is fine, but
| calling someone in that bar a "redneck" is usually not._
|
| Here in NZ, "redneck" seems to be morphing away from the
| "hick" or working class definitions to more of a "racist
| bigot" connotation that could be applied more widely.
| spaetzleesser wrote:
| That happened to me when I moved to the US from Germany. When
| my accent was stronger people talked slower which made it easy
| to understand. Then my accent got better, people started
| speaking at their normal speed and I didn't understand them.
|
| Same happened to me in Spanish. I can pronounce Spanish pretty
| well so when I was a beginner and said something to somebody in
| Costa Rica they responded with full speed Spanish. So I had to
| learn to mispronounce more.
| tomcam wrote:
| When my family goes traveling I am the designated "learn enough
| local language to get by" person.
|
| I know a little bit of Polish but I speak it with a perfect BBC
| Polish accent. Worked a long time at it. I noticed that on
| buses or in restaurants if I told people I didn't understand
| Polish they completely ignored me and didn't simplify their
| language. I think because I can speak my few words like a
| native they just filtered out what I was saying.
|
| The same was not true in Paris. I am not convinced I have a
| great French accent, however.
| marcus_holmes wrote:
| I have the same in Berlin. My German is terrible, and I have
| real problems understanding it. But I have learned to say
| "Enscheldigung, mein Deutsch ist schlect" (excuse me, my
| German is terrible) so well that I find a lot of Germans
| assume I'm being modest and carry on speaking fluent German
| to me.
| solar-ice wrote:
| That's a pure misunderstanding; saying your German is
| terrible doesn't mean you want to speak English or you want
| someone to say something in simpler words, it just means
| your German is terrible.
| stdbrouw wrote:
| Actually, it does imply that you want the counterparty to
| speak more slowly or otherwise accommodate you. Otherwise
| there's no reason to point it out at all.
| synu wrote:
| I've found in Germany it's best to be direct and not rely
| on implication to make your point.
| jhugo wrote:
| No, in Germany it just means what it says. If you wanted
| them to speak slower you would have asked them to.
| Vinnl wrote:
| I could interpret it to mean "please excuse my mistakes",
| which is some accommodation, but apparently not what they
| were after.
| Beldin wrote:
| Yup. I would indeed take it to mean "apologies that i am
| butchering this language and/or its grammar". Same thing
| in The Netherlands: if you're excusing your command of
| the language, that's polite. If you want to request
| something, you'd ask. Eg, "nicht zo schnell, bitte".
| DonHopkins wrote:
| Or maybe they think he's saying "Entschuldigung, ich bin
| ein schlechter Deutscher."
| marban wrote:
| You need to work on your Rechtschreibung, too
| bigbacaloa wrote:
| Germans understand you to mean that your German is
| terrible, but since if you wanted them to slow down and
| speak clearly you would have said so, they think nothing
| more of it than that your German is terrible and you are
| surprisingly self aware for an American (or whatever you
| are).
| CraigJPerry wrote:
| My wife (Polish) frequently gets the cold treatment in busy
| places when asking for help but my ridiculously rubbish
| attempts at polish[1] end up with 5 star service and smiles.
| Smiles in ex-communist small shops are not a thing afaict,
| except when a foreigner tries to speak Polish.
|
| Me speaking English gets the cold shoulder too. We've tried
| this out in different situations where we don't make it known
| we're together just so we can compare and contrast the
| treatment.
|
| [1] trying to buy a medium size bottle of water with "nie
| duze, nie male woda nie gazowana po prosze"
| gjulianm wrote:
| French people can be quite special with the accent and
| pronunciation, though. For some reason, it's the language
| where I've had to work the most on the accent and
| pronunciation to get understood. You can speak weird english
| and people still understand what you say, but weird french
| will get you nowhere.
| louissan wrote:
| Ah oui my friend. Speaking wiz zis accent is a libeRation
| for uz French people.
| tomcam wrote:
| I've never had that problem, though I've only visited Paris
| for more than a month or so at at time. I found the
| Parisians play along politely with my no-doubt embarrassing
| efforts.
| vincentmarle wrote:
| Reminds me of this video: https://twitter.com/killersundyma
| nn/status/15297936834946826...
| circlefavshape wrote:
| > You can speak weird english and people still understand
| what you say
|
| Not necessarily. I'm Irish, and English is my first
| language. Landing in Atlanta airport a few years ago I
| asked some airport staff for directions to the bus, and
| they looked at me blankly. It was only when I said "bus" in
| a fake American accent that they understood
| codethief wrote:
| > You can speak weird english and people still understand
| what you say
|
| I suppose OP meant "weird _non-native_ English ".
|
| Native accents, in my experience, are a different matter.
| Certain non-American accents (Irish, Scottish come to
| mind) are just very hard to understand for untrained
| American ears that have never been exposed to them
| before.
| [deleted]
| thatjoeoverthr wrote:
| Poles are just very neurotic about it. I didn't realize this
| until I started to learn another language (Russian) so I
| could put the experience of learning Polish in some kind of
| context.
| KptMarchewa wrote:
| >Poles are just very neurotic about it.
|
| I'm curious what you mean by that.
|
| TBH I've seen non-slavic person speaking Polish only once,
| so I don't even have an idea what I'd do in that situation.
| tomcam wrote:
| Well they had to keep their language alive in secret for a
| century or so. And AFAIK even teenagers use relatively few
| slangy terms, the exact opposite of how American youths
| speak.
| bitwize wrote:
| Linus Torvalds is like this now. He's a far cry from the famous
| recording of him saying "Hello, my name is Linus Torvalds and I
| pronounce Linux as Linux." His American accent is quite good.
| There are tells here and there, but as a European programmer he
| has had some baseline English proficiency which he honed, along
| with his accent, from his many years living in the USA.
| jonnydubowsky wrote:
| When i come to the page and let my eyes naturally scan through,
| the phrase Dead Simple sticks out, which is probably not a great
| catch phrase for this app. It'd be cool if instead, a GIF showing
| the user experience led me right into trying it out with the
| "enter address here" section.
| pseudolus wrote:
| I had to look up your profile and I'm assuming your site is
| https://propertywebbuilder.com. It looks good but kind of bland
| in that I can't recall ever having visited a real estate web site
| that doesn't feature some actual photos of homes. Additionally,
| you don't appear to have any links to sample pages that
| incorporate your product.
|
| edit: I noticed that at the very bottom there's a link to a demo
| but the demo doesn't load.
| puranjay wrote:
| If I'm honest, the block height for many elements seems a
| little off. We're used to individual sections occupying the
| entire screen, but on this site, sections feel like they're
| bleeding into each other.
|
| Some of the internal elements also seem too squat and
| compressed, especially the "what makes our websites special"
| part
| derbOac wrote:
| Yeah, as a form of friendly feedback, there's something
| vaguely untrustworthy-looking about the website, like a
| malware site. Actually as I think about it, there _is_ an
| uncanny valley phenomenon to me, but in a malware site sense.
|
| To me it has something to do with the typeface choices,
| and/or the text layout. My eye drifts to the text in the
| upper left quadrant.
|
| Lack of actual photos is maybe another thing but for me
| personally there's more to it than that.
| etewiah wrote:
| Yeah, I didn't do a good job with the propertywebbuilder
| landing page. With propertysquares I paid a lot less
| attention to the landing page and found I was getting much
| better engagement!
| puranjay wrote:
| Just as some constructive feedback, perhaps you can try a
| different color palette. On PropertySquares as well, the
| green, purple, and blue don't seem to mesh well together.
| [deleted]
| etewiah wrote:
| Damn, I didn't think this post would get so popular. I actually
| forgot to update my profile here. My current project is
| https://propertysquares.com :(
| nottorp wrote:
| They both look like every other landing page i've seen in the
| past 5 years. Maybe too much polish makes them all look the
| same?
| sogen wrote:
| Some quick comments:
|
| - Add more whitespace. Sections are too close to each other
|
| - Reduce font size. The body text is way too large and
| competes with headers
|
| - Add padding. It would help to have some whitespace on the
| left and right of your page.
| notahacker wrote:
| I'm viewing this on an atypical mobile screen, so it's
| possible my user experience is a long way from the default,
| but I think the problem here might be less "uncanny valley"
| and more it being busy with conflicting and confusing user
| action options. Perhaps before you had something very simple?
|
| The images are fine and there's not much more _to_ the design
| on mobile. But at the top I 'm told "you previously created a
| home hunt" which I definitely didn't which links to a form
| with prefilled demo passwords which is unusual, the main call
| to action is below the fold, and I'm not sure how important
| the link to donate to the project via OpenCollective is, but
| I bet the average first time user is confused by it. The
| other effect I can imagine is if the first cohort of viewers
| was the sort of people that browse interesting FOSS projects
| (who will have used a lot of software with worse landing
| pages!) and the cohort looking at the current design are
| homebuyers in general...
| p0nce wrote:
| I feel a bit of the same when making UIs. If the UI is obviously
| bad/rushed then people will talk about the features more. If the
| UI is nice and polished, people will find their own one way to
| tell how it could have been 1% better.
| alangibson wrote:
| I'm getting ready to knock out a landing page to see if anyone is
| interested in a QR code sales tool I built for myself. I'm now
| thinking of having almost nothing but text explaining that 'hey
| I'm just trying to gauge interest. Here's what it does in plain
| language. Get on the mailing list of you're interested.' Almost
| an anti-landing page.
| BrandiATMuhkuh wrote:
| I remember from my HCI class that the judgement of people varies
| depending on how polished your design looks.
|
| If you design looks hand drawn you will get creative feedback.
| But if your design looks polished you will get binary (harsh)
| feedback.
|
| You can see that design tools like balsamic have different
| renderings, exactly because of that.
| jbreckmckye wrote:
| Could it be your artwork? There is a general backlash against
| "corporate Memphis", with its cartoonish style and self-assured
| optimism:
|
| https://t-artmagazine.com/what-is-corporate-memphis-and-why-...
|
| > Illustrations in the style, with its aggressively friendly
| expressions, portray a world that is uncannily utopian.
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| The problem isn't that it is bad, it is that it is a trope. I
| associate the weirdly shaped human-like blobs and office
| furniture artwork with "they wanna sell me a monthly plan", and
| if it is one of the free stock looking ones I think "they want
| me to pay monthly for this thing they knocked up this morning"
| n8cpdx wrote:
| I don't care about the design language, but what bothers me
| about it is the idea that they paid someone to come up with an
| illustration, when they could have used a screenshot.
|
| Showing me corporate Memphis and hiding the product is a major
| red flag.
| d1sxeyes wrote:
| Not sure what you mean by 'uncanny valley', this is just a simple
| case of raising expectations. The better designed the landing
| page, the higher the expectations of the product.
| mtoddsmith wrote:
| I'm gonna play stupid and ask "where do I get the url for the
| properties I'm interested in". It's not explained at all on the
| page.
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