[HN Gopher] I disabled WiFi on the new Samsung fridge
___________________________________________________________________
I disabled WiFi on the new Samsung fridge
Author : rapnie
Score : 429 points
Date : 2022-05-30 05:00 UTC (18 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (eattherich.club)
(TXT) w3m dump (eattherich.club)
| [deleted]
| btbuildem wrote:
| I feel like our best bet is "Right to Repair" legislation. Claw
| back ownership to mean real ownership, not veiled rental.
|
| RTR should include access to the software running these products,
| this way people could modify things, brick their appliances if
| they really want to, turn off "call home" features, etc.
| henvic wrote:
| My Samsung washing machine has Wi-Fi. It's quite useful to know
| when laundry is ready... but it also allows me to say what I'm
| laundering, and it'll configure the machine for me. However, it
| doesn't allow me to turn it on -\\_(tsu)_/- I imagine that
| forcing me to be physically near it and press a button to turn it
| on is a safety mechanism, but it sucks. Especially because it
| isn't clear whether this is something that can be configured or
| by design. I've tried everything to change this, but failed to
| find a way to remotely power it (I'd rather always use my
| smartphone to configure & turn it on).
| witx wrote:
| This is something that stresses me a lot. I care about fighting
| against these non-features but most people around don't care and
| have the mentality of "I have nothing to hide"
|
| I've lost count the amount of times I thought about "I should
| just do an open-source version of <some home appliance I need and
| is full of spy/crapware>"
| soared wrote:
| Completely unrelated, but I've heard of mastodon a lot but never
| used it. Now I get it though - the UI is really nice and
| reminiscent of the internet I used to know. I thought I opened an
| app somehow on accident... snappy ui, no ads, perfectly scaled to
| my device's screen, etc.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| I think this is just a normal PWA,though. In fact, I think this
| is a rather website-like PWA at that, with the obvious links at
| the top.
|
| This is the system Google intends PWAs to be, just quick,
| snappy, easily accessible websites that behave like they belong
| on your device. Sadly, most "apps" seem to copy the bloated,
| heavy, mostly JS-based approach we find in native apps, which
| is besides the point. Take the Twitter web-app, for example,
| that's a bloated mess that needs some serious optimisation. The
| alternative front-end, Nitter.net, does a lot better in almost
| every aspect. It's fast, accessible, and does just about
| everything except writing tweets and putting together a wall of
| followed accounts for you.
|
| I like mastodon but I still prefer a native app over the web UI
| because it just feels that little bit too "web" for me. The
| main advantage obviously isn't the UI but the decentralized
| nature of the platform; a clean UI just helps them be a better
| alternative for the closed ecosystem of traditional social
| media.
| rsolva wrote:
| Another benefit to the Fediverse is that many clients exists to
| the same backend, and they all have access to the same API /
| features. No "official" or "third-party" clients or apps, which
| has proven to encourage developers to make apps for many
| platforms (JS, android, iOS, TUIs, GNOME, KDE, etc)
| [deleted]
| neilv wrote:
| Two of my favorites:
|
| https://xkcd.com/2030/
|
| https://old.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/aloi5v/pro...
| kennu wrote:
| I love WiFi on my home appliances. Washing machine sends
| notifications when it's finished or when it's running out of
| detergent, air purifier notifies when it's time to change the
| filter, A/C lets me turn it on remotely when I feel too hot, etc.
| I don't really get people who opt out of these convenience
| features.
| simongray wrote:
| I bought a Samsung TV, was pretty satisfied with it. One day it
| updated itself and now it has forced some kind of Samsung TV
| service onto itself that is very visibly promoted whenever I go
| to switch to a different hooked-up appliance. It annoys me to
| no end.
| wincy wrote:
| I jailbroke my LG TV. So I have shell access but also have a
| decent smart TV, and I removed all the ads. Also have ad free
| Youtube. I like it a lot more now.
| Pr0ject217 wrote:
| A guide would be interesting.
| casenjo wrote:
| Did you follow a guide for this or did it on your own? A
| write-up would be amazing, I'd love to have ad-free Youtube
| on my C1
| the_biot wrote:
| You should write this up, sounds pretty interesting.
| slategruen wrote:
| Is LG the only mainstream TV manufacturer which allows
| this?
| dhritzkiv wrote:
| Dumb question w.r.t washing machine: don't you have to dose
| detergent in with each load, or do newer machines have some
| sort of large reservoir? If the former, how would it know if
| you're running low on detergent?
| kennu wrote:
| This model has a large reservoir where you can pour the
| entire bottle and it'll autodose based on some settings. It's
| a nice convenience that you can just put the clothes in and
| hit start to wash with defaults.
| Arainach wrote:
| Vendors have no incentive to provide any security updates after
| original purchase. Even assuming the original code was solid
| and had no known security flaws (this isn't the case, hardware
| vendors wrote godawful code full of holes), anything in the
| future makes it an easily exploitable vector into my home
| network.
|
| These apps often require ridiculous invasions of privacy -
| refusing to work if you don't give them full access to
| location, running in the background, etc. - and work poorly at
| best.
|
| In 30+ years of using computers, I thought that printer
| companies were my go-to standard for truly hideous software,
| but appliances are pushing the bar even lower. If my company
| interviewed a candidate from one of them who didn't proactively
| state that they formally protested the shipping of their
| software, I would in most cases refuse to hire them.
| avar wrote:
| > These apps often require ridiculous invasions of privacy -
| refusing to work if you don't give them full access to
| location, running in the background[...]
|
| The "full access to location" to that is likely because of
| Android's broken security model, which made asking for
| location the only way various apps had to bind to some
| physical device. It's apparently being fixed[1].
|
| As for running in the background: Isn't that because it needs
| to poll for and receive the notification?
|
| 1. https://www.androidpolice.com/2021/05/19/android-12-apps-
| won...
| Arainach wrote:
| You can do notifications without polling in the background.
|
| Even _Facebook Messenger_ doesn 't require the "run in the
| background" permission, and yet all sorts of cheapest
| Chinese bidder IoT and Appliance garbage apps check for it
| and refuse to run if you don't grant it - such as the app
| for Thinkware dashcams.
| kennu wrote:
| In my view the level of home network security should be based
| on actual risk level, eg focusing on automated attacks rather
| than targeted attacks, and based on an evaluation of what
| data you may actually lose and could you back it up offline.
| Aiming for some kind of perceived 100% security will just
| make you give up a lot of convenience to mitigate risks that
| probably never realize or that don't actually matter that
| much.
| Arainach wrote:
| Automated attacks like scanning for devices with known bugs
| that love to poke holes in your firewall to talk to their
| servers?
| timthorn wrote:
| The UK PSTI legislation currently going through Parliament
| includes penalties of up to 4% of worldwide revenue if
| manufacturers don't live up to their product security
| obligations. That should be a reasonable incentive.
|
| https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-product-security-and-
| telecom...
| breadloaf wrote:
| I have a washing machine with WiFi (brand Candy). Connected
| their Android app, everything worked fine. Tried to connect
| their iOS app, while connected to Android app (so two users can
| use it). Connecting two devices has broken WiFi so much that it
| is not working anymore for neither app and only available
| interface is very limited knob. At least.
|
| Appliance manufacturers are worse than car OEMs in this sense.
| Making stuff which nobody asked for while screwing it up.
| kennu wrote:
| I disagree with "stuff which nobody asked for" because I have
| asked for smart features in appliances and generally choose
| products that have them. However, I do agree that many times
| especially the smaller and cheaper manufacturers screw things
| up. Bigger brands seem to often have more reliable products
| and apps that generally work as intended. I've been pretty
| happy with apps from e.g. IKEA, Xiaomi, Bosch, Philips. They
| could all be better but they are serving their purpose.
| tag2103 wrote:
| You know these used to say ... and how you can too... back in the
| good old days.
| kebman wrote:
| UI Hell: The place I'm renting has an IKEA / Whirlpool ceramic
| top stove. All digital. And I HATE it.
|
| You can't find the touch-buttons in the dark, say when you want
| to make coffee in the wee morn, so you're forced to turn on
| lights. When you finally find a button, it takes forever to turn
| it to max. You have to fiddle around to turn it back down again,
| first click the button for the corresponding plate you want, then
| click a separate button to actually power it down. Again, it
| takes forever.
|
| It's also impossible to train tactile memory for it, becuase the
| buttons are too close and too hard to discern on the dark-on-dark
| top, so if you try doing it blind, you'll just end up fiddling
| forever to find the damn thing.
|
| If you spill something over the touch area, it'll start beeping
| and complaining before it turns itself off. Meanwhile the
| corresponding pot might have already boiled over, and you can't
| react in time, because the touch panel is covered in boiling
| liquid.
|
| Also, honestly, I think it's actually harder to keep the ceramic
| top clean than a regular top. Reason: It smudges real easy, and
| you're never sure how much pressure or abrasives you can use
| without making scratches. On the old tops, you just didn't have
| to worry. It could withstand a sledgehammer amount of abuse
| before scratching or chipping.
|
| And don't even get me started on the microwave installed here...
| I brought my own two-knob micro despite there already being one
| installed here. That should give you a clue.
| reuben364 wrote:
| I have a combination microwave/conventional oven with
| capacitive buttons as well as a dial for temperature. You can
| only use the buttons to adjust the timing for the microwave in
| 10-second increments, leaving the dial completely unused in
| that modality.
| bjackman wrote:
| Have you tried selecting a ring and then holding the "reduce
| power" button for a moment? I've found on some units this is a
| faster way to get to full power. And I had one where holding
| the up and down buttons together skips the selected ring
| straight to zero.
|
| Delighted that my new place just has knobs!
| hyperdimension wrote:
| So in your case, holding 'reduce power' then actually raises
| the power to the maximum?! It's like an additional slap in
| the face.
| bjackman wrote:
| Only when it's on 0. It "wraps around" (but if you go down
| from one, you need to release and touch again for this to
| happen).
| NonNefarious wrote:
| My parents just got one of these POSes. What a UI fiasco.
|
| And my mom is afraid to let anything drip on it, because they
| told her she needs special cleaner or it'll ruin the finish.
| And my parents are not gullible people.
|
| Look forward to more of this shit, too: CA just outlawed gas
| appliances in new houses. But in an area stricken by permanent
| drought, do they do something sensible like requiring greywater
| recovery systems in new construction? NOPE.
| alpaca128 wrote:
| Mine has a lock button for some reason, and of course it is the
| closest button to the hot area. Meaning if I slide a pan a bit
| too far to the front it'll cover & trigger the lock button
| because it's capacitive and now I can't use or even turn off
| the stove for a while unless I press on the now boiling hot
| lock button.
|
| This should be illegal.
| licebmi__at__ wrote:
| I had a similar problem. A quick hack; try to put some small 3d
| stickers on it. At least on mine, they don't register as input
| and leave enough space to use the button.
| bajsejohannes wrote:
| It's telling that no professional stoves have capacitive
| buttons.
| maccard wrote:
| Just because something isnt used by professionals doesn't
| make it unsuitable for domestic use. I don't have a roll cage
| in my car, for example.
|
| That said capacitive touch has no place in the kitchen.
| chrlac wrote:
| I'm not sure the example you provide really applies to the
| situation. Roll cages are mandatory in race cars, so
| effectively the contrary to "isn't used by professionals" .
| Also, they can be used in normal road cars. Granted,
| they're inconvenient but still provide added safety.
|
| An example that comes to mind is Continuously Variable
| Transmissions (CVT). Most types of motorsports avoid CVTs
| for reasons of weight, unreliability and decreased
| repairability. However, for normal road cars, CVTs are very
| widespread and they do the job just fine (until they don't,
| but that's another story!)
| maccard wrote:
| It's an analogy - it doesn't need to be a 100% perfect to
| be appropriate.
| FridayoLeary wrote:
| Reminds me of this quote from the hitchhikers guide to the
| galaxy
|
| _> The only profitable division of the company is its
| Complaints Department, which, according to the series, takes up
| the major landmasses on three planets. The Hitchhiker's Guide
| to the Galaxy defines its marketing division as "a bunch of
| mindless jerks who'll be the first against the wall when the
| revolution comes," and an edition of the Encyclopedia Galactica
| that had the good fortune to fall through a time warp from a
| thousand years in the future defines the marketing division of
| the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation as "a bunch of mindless
| jerks who were the first against the wall when the revolution
| came."_
| albertgoeswoof wrote:
| I had an ikea induction hob with a similar UI, moved house and
| now I have a full size gas rangemaster with 5 rings.
|
| I really miss the induction hob. Cleaning the rangemaster is a
| complete nightmare, it's full of places where dirt can
| accumulate, there's even holes down the back and gaps in the
| side where food falls down that are unrecoverable. The gas
| rings sometimes don't light up and gas leaks out while you're
| cooking and don't realise, it's much more dangerous for
| children and I've left it on without realising a few times now.
|
| The buttons on the induction hob sucked, yes, but the user
| experience was so much better, literally wipe clean and done,
| safe and powerful. Maybe if I had a cleaner I'd prefer the
| rangemaster...
| maccard wrote:
| Completely agree here that the entire experience was better
| despite the buttons. If I could choose, I would have an
| induction burner with front mounted dials for controls.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Why not both? Induction stove with knobs.
| thorin wrote:
| Is this the only way they can make sure they break down
| frequently enough to force you to buy a new device every few
| years rather than building something that would normally last a
| generation. Also I guess they might save a couple of pounds in
| controls. I found a good local appliance repair guy recently
| (could probably do it myself, but I'm not good at that sort of
| thing). I intend to try and repair anything from now on rather
| than buy new.
| daveoc64 wrote:
| Capacitive touch buttons for electric/ceramic/induction hobs
| have been very common in the UK for the last 20 years.
|
| Like fan (convection) ovens, is this just something that Europe
| is used to and is alien to people in the USA?
|
| Personally, I love that the entire surface of the hob
| (including buttons) is a flat piece of glass. It makes cleaning
| trivial.
| yason wrote:
| To boil a kettle of water before and after:
|
| Before: turn the knob to max and wait a moment.
|
| Today: long-press the on/off button to turn the stove top on,
| press another button to select plate, adjust power by hitting
| the plus button ten times to get it to the max setting. Then
| wait a moment.
|
| That's the worst damn user interface you can think of for
| using a physical machine that begs for tactile controls.
| Nursie wrote:
| Ah, the UK story on that would be "fill kettle, plug it in,
| switch it on and wait for it to boil"
|
| Kettles on stoves are weird to us.
| zach_garwood wrote:
| So when you say, "I'm going to put the kettle on," you're
| referring to putting the kettle on the counter, not the
| stove? Or do Brits not use that expression for using a
| kettle.
| Nursie wrote:
| Yeah we say that, and it does mean the general case of
| putting your kettle on to boil. It could mean stovetop or
| electric.
|
| But for the vast majority of us it's electric.
| zach_garwood wrote:
| I guess, for you, it's a phrase that's lost the original
| meaning. Like "hanging up" a phone or "rolling down" a
| car window.
| l72 wrote:
| I stayed at a place last week just like this, but the max
| was 9, not 10. If you get to 9 and press '+' again, it
| resets to 5! From there, pressing '-' goes down to 4, not
| back to 9, so press '+' another 4 times to get to max.
| logifail wrote:
| > it'll start beeping
|
| Speaking of beeping, why is it _so hard_ to completely disable
| the "I'm finished" beep on household devices?
|
| My microwave beeps, incessantly.
|
| My dishwasher beeps, four times, when it's finished. Especially
| nice when this happens after midnight when everyone is
| sleeping.
|
| My washing machine beeps, for the best part of 10 mins, when
| it's finished. Also nice when this happens in the wee small
| hours.
|
| My tumble dryer - praise the Lord - has a function to disable
| its beeping. The beeping got disabled within minutes of it
| being installed.
| GordonS wrote:
| > My washing machine beeps, for the best part of 10 mins,
| when it's finished. Also nice when this happens in the wee
| small hours.
|
| My washing machine loudly plays a lengthy fecking _song_ when
| it 's finished!
|
| I do wish that, at the least, there was a way to reduce the
| volume of all these beeping things...
| sdflhasjd wrote:
| > My washing machine loudly plays a lengthy fecking song
| when it's finished!
|
| Let me guess... one of the big Korean manufacturers? Seems
| to be popular over there for some reason.
|
| Fortunately, on my LG, you can turn it off - but there's no
| middle ground: it's either a 30 second tune or complete
| silence.
| GordonS wrote:
| Yep, it's Samsung. We purchased a more expensive machine,
| expecting it would be better quality and last longer...
| it's been a terrible purchase though, we've had nothing
| but trouble with it. Won't be buying Samsung again.
| maccard wrote:
| That would be Die Forelle [0] by schubert - it's a song
| about a trout. Now you can think of trout every time it
| happens.
|
| [0] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C1gbHYqdPnk
| GordonS wrote:
| That's the one!
|
| Had no idea it was about a trout of all things, or indeed
| _why_ they chose such a song?!
| raverbashing wrote:
| And the funny thing is how some people will be insistent they
| like the beeping! (usually the same ones with the memory span
| of a goldfish but I digres...)
|
| Of course, the best way is to make it configurable, but
| surely.
| felxh wrote:
| As many have mentioned, microwaves are the ones I get the
| least. What is the urgency for opening the damn thing when it
| is done!?
|
| For dishwashers, we now have one that just opens by itself
| when it is done (to dry) - no beeping or anything. Maybe a
| bit hyperbolic, but it was quite a life changer!
| mPReDiToR wrote:
| Smart sockets.
|
| Plug through the device and when it's done, shout at Mycroft
| (or other spyware DA) to power it off.
| baal80spam wrote:
| > My microwave beeps, incessantly.
|
| When my old microwave (which emitted 4 long beeps when
| finished) broken down, I specifically looked for an unit
| with:
|
| - knobs, ie. no buttons (and especially no touch buttons!)
|
| - shortest possible 'cooking finished' bell
|
| I managed to find one that I like but it wasn't easy.
| taoufix wrote:
| My microwave oven makes not 1, not 2, not 3, ... but 6 beeps
| when it's done. I hated the thing. No way to disable it. So I
| ended up opening the damn thing, find the tiny speaker and
| unsolder its wires ([1], [2])
|
| My Instant Pot does the same thing, but I only use it in the
| evening, so not so much of a big deal as the microwave oven.
|
| [1] Before: https://i.imgur.com/xuyQJwL.jpg
|
| [2] After: https://i.imgur.com/ZwX8zWs.jpg
| bob1029 wrote:
| I believe the instant pot does have some way to turn off
| the sounds with config. I managed to turn the beeps off
| with some magic combination of button presses.
| hansoolo wrote:
| >My washing machine beeps, for the best part of 10 mins, when
| it's finished. Also nice when this happens in the wee small
| hours.
|
| Hmmm? So it annoys you if it beeps at those times, but not
| when it RUNS at those times? I'm confused...
| logifail wrote:
| > So it annoys you if it beeps at those times, but not when
| it RUNS at those times? I'm confused...
|
| Utility room is a long way from the bedroom, and the
| utility room door fits well.
|
| As long as you don't select a high-speed spin cycle the
| washing machine is more or less inaudible from the bedroom.
|
| The beeper, however, isn't inaudible, especially at night.
|
| Great design choice to make the beeper the loudest part of
| the device ... _and then make it unmuteable_. Yes, we did
| once ask the Siemens repair guy during a service visit.
| Findecanor wrote:
| Bad audio design. Beeps should be reserved for _errors_.
| Success should be indicated by a happy chime.
|
| But most of all, it is being cheap and using a piezeoelectric
| buzzer driven on/off instead of a speaker driven by a small
| routine that would produce a pleasant sound.
|
| Microwave ovens used to sound a _bell_ when they were done,
| back when timers were mechanical.
| InCityDreams wrote:
| "...a happy chime", would piss me off equally as much.
| bob1029 wrote:
| The thing that really bothers me is that the amount of
| beeping is totally not linked to the urgency of the thing.
| For instance,
|
| My microwave beeps for a solid 10 seconds every minute after
| a run. In this condition, it is perfectly safe no matter
| what.
|
| My oven beeps exactly 1 time when preheated, similar to how
| FedEx and UPS notify upon package delivery. In this
| condition, it could burn my house down if left unattended.
| There are no subsequent beeps.
| LeonenTheDK wrote:
| Exactly, my microwave plays this cute little song for about
| 3 seconds that stopped being cute after the second time
| hearing it. But if you don't open the door within ~30
| seconds or so, it plays its song again. It does this for a
| long while before giving up. Customer support, when asked
| if there was a way to disable it that was missed, said it's
| a "safety feature" and therefore cannot be disabled.
| gs17 wrote:
| Even if oven fires aren't likely, it's definitely weird
| that my microwave will beep every minute until you open the
| door just in case you forget you need to eat to live, and
| my oven will happily run for hours (days?) and doesn't seem
| to remind you about how you might be accidentally
| incinerating something, it seems like a beep every hour
| (with a button to mute it) wouldn't be unappreciated.
|
| Although I guess if it's not a safety thing, the cost of
| the extra design might be more than I'd expect to save on
| my electric bill from the once a year or less I leave it on
| overnight by mistake.
| gruez wrote:
| >it could burn my house down if left unattended
|
| Really? I have a hard time imagining how heating elements
| in a steel box is going to burn your house down.
| bob1029 wrote:
| Imagine an in-wall oven that requires the use of an
| active blower to keep the surrounding area from getting
| too hot.
|
| I've also had an electric oven where the element was
| damaged and started melting/deforming. Not sure how far
| this would have gone if left alone.
| travisporter wrote:
| https://www.hunker.com/12548882/common-causes-of-oven-
| fires
| happyopossum wrote:
| > In this condition, it could burn my house down
|
| You're pre-heating your oven, so it's empty. There are no
| realistic circumstances where an empty oven could burn your
| house down simply by being on at a preset temperature.
| lolinder wrote:
| > You're pre-heating your oven, so it's empty.
|
| This is a big assumption. A lot of people, myself
| included, store pots and pans in the oven when it's not
| in use. I frequently forget to remove them before
| preheating.
|
| In my case the pan that I keep in there is made of cast
| iron, so there really isn't anything that can go wrong.
| But I would bet good money that there are people out
| there who keep wooden handled pots and pans in the oven.
| Is it a bad idea? Absolutely. But it's a realistic
| scenario.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| My washine machine never stops beeping. Ever!
|
| It will beep FOREVER untill you turn it off. This should be a
| crime.
| Nursie wrote:
| > My tumble dryer - praise the Lord - has a function to
| disable its beeping
|
| I need this! Ours beeps when it's done, then starts up again
| for a couple of minutes, beeps again... repeat ad nauseam.
| Yes, I KNOW YOU'RE FINISHED!
| verisimi wrote:
| No one wants this technology.
|
| So why are we getting it anyway? We are getting it because it is
| essential to the smart cities agenda. It is planned that
| everything be micromanaged by a technocratic elite.
|
| Think of China's social credit score on steroids. Have you used
| up your allocation of credits? Your fridge/heating/etc can be
| switched off.
|
| Have you been a bad citizen, posting dissenting comments online?
| Then you can't travel, will have your bank account
| frozen/constrained.
|
| A digital pass and smart technology everywhere are required. Then
| technocrats can have fine-grained control of everything.
|
| This will be done in the name of the environment - in the name of
| 'saving the earth' most of us will choose digital enslavement and
| will even force it on others.
|
| ^ That's the plan in a nutshell - which is aimed to be in place
| for 2030.
|
| https://www.technocracy.news/
| mcv wrote:
| Why mess with the hardware? Can't you just not give it access to
| your wifi?
| [deleted]
| sound1 wrote:
| I would like to know the pris and cons myself
| nextlevelwizard wrote:
| Controversially I would like to have fridge and stove that could
| send me telemetry over Wi-Fi. I currently have RuuviTag in my
| fridge to monitor temperature and moisture, but I can't put one
| in my oven for obvious reasons (and it couldn't monitor stove
| anyway).
|
| Obviously neither should have any actual controls over Wi-Fi, but
| getting a notification about open fridge door, being able to
| check if stove or oven is on while away from home, or getting
| report when something (is about to) breaks would be neat.
| Tepix wrote:
| > could send _me_ telemetry over Wi-Fi
|
| Well, this isn't it. Only the corporations receive your data.
| chimen wrote:
| I love people complaining about stuff that they did not pay for.
| That thread is full of it. You can just buy a fridge without
| those options you know? A dumb fridge, dumb whatever - they are
| out there.
| virtual_void wrote:
| Yes, whilst you still can. Good luck finding a high quality
| dumb tv these days.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| I added WiFi to my fridge and it's pretty great. It will tell me
| when the door is left ajar or when the temperature goes too high
| or low in either the fridge or freezer compartment.
|
| However I made it myself with an ESP8266 and some Dallas sensors.
| So it only works for me. Not for anyone else.
| stonewareslord wrote:
| > made it myself with an ESP8266
|
| Do you have a recommendation on how to start an ESP8266
| project? Which board/power supply/??? Did you buy to do this
| for example
| eulers_secret wrote:
| Consider checking out https://esphome.io/
|
| I personally buy whatever esp32 is on Amazon and use whatever
| usb power bricks I have laying around.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| In fact this is exactly what I used!
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| I use the WeMos D1 Mini. It's a small board with fewer pins
| than a NodeMCU or Lolin D32 board but more than sufficient
| for stuff like this. The ESP32 is more powerful but to be
| honest for a simple bunch of wifi sensors it's overkill.
| Though one thing that is nice is that the ESP32 has a dual-
| core CPU meaning the WiFi can run on the second core. It's
| more responsive as a result but again, for this kind of stuff
| it doesn't really matter. You can find WeMos (or knockoffs
| which work fine) for 2$ everywhere.
|
| The ESP32 also has bluetooth which the 8266 doesn't. But WiFi
| and BT can't be used at the same time, you can turn them both
| on but they have to share the 'airtime' meaning more airtime
| for BT is more packet loss for wifi. If I need both I will
| usually just use 2 for this reason :)
|
| For programming I used https://ESPHome.io which is perfect
| for Home Assistant and you can program it right from the Home
| Assistant interface, just by declaring a few variables. I
| even have a $2 OLED display hooked up to it (SSD1306 1-color
| typical aliexpress thingy), works perfectly.
|
| It's highly recommended, let me know if you have more
| questions.
|
| And yeah like the other person said, power supply for these
| boards is irrelevant, any USB supply will do. They're not
| fussy because they don't use a lot of power unlike a pi.
| jimmaswell wrote:
| This stuff makes me roll my eyes. The wifi fridge isn't going to
| hurt you. Personally I think it sounds cool to have your Google
| calendar on your fridge.
| epolanski wrote:
| Yeah, I thought the same about smart tvs, then I have been
| showered in ads, despite me never logging on any service, those
| adds were terrifyingly accurate.
|
| Have turned off wifi from my device and never turned it on
| again.
| LoveMortuus wrote:
| I'd like one that would have cameras inside and would know
| what's inside of it, when they expire and even have an option
| to order the same products if they're starting to go low!
| Without me having to do any extra work like scanning each
| product or entering any data!
| joshvm wrote:
| This was the subject of a Silicon Valley skit:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcXu4_K1tMQ
|
| This approach is used commercially. Our office is in a co-
| working space and we have a smart fridge in the kitchen. I
| should point out we also have a normal shared fridge, but
| this is like a fancy vending machine. You unlock with an app,
| take what you want and all the items have an RFID tag, so the
| system knows what you took and charges you. I assume the
| workspace managers also get stock alerts.
|
| The other end of this is hotel minibars which detect what you
| take, I guess also using RFID. I know Marriott use these
| (Berlin for example) to stop people swapping out wine for
| water or juice. Fun fact, this happened to a friend of mine
| in managed isolation. The hotel had taken all the booze from
| the rooms, since alcohol was rationed. You had to order it
| from room service and they'd leave it outside your door. They
| swapped it for free, but they weren't surprised. It seems
| like it happened a lot, but being told at check-in that you
| can't touch the fridge without risking it charging you seems
| like penny pinching when you're charging 150+ EUR per night.
| eric_cc wrote:
| > The wifi fridge isn't going to hurt you.
|
| Do you have a source? Proof that it is not a security concern?
| lpointal wrote:
| Can't you just disconnect the antenna ?
| nemo44x wrote:
| Once everything in the home is connected, governments can pass
| laws that essentially force appliance manufactures to limit use
| of appliances. In the name of climate change or w/e.
|
| Everyone is limited to 1 dishwasher session during drought
| season. Fridges run a few degrees warmer during heat waves to
| conserve energy.
|
| Or it gets factored into your personal and family ESG score which
| can be used to discriminate.
|
| Are you doing your part, comrade?
| Gunnerhead wrote:
| This is terrifying.
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| This seems extremely unlikely to me.
| ryandrake wrote:
| > Are you doing your part, comrade?
|
| Your dig at communism doesn't make sense: This dystopia you
| describe is being actively built by capitalist companies
| operating within a market economy and encouraged by
| democratically elected governments.
| nemo44x wrote:
| The commies never gave up. They marched through the
| institutions and created de facto commissars within the
| corporate structure which are generally a part of HR. The
| commissars are called DEI and ESG now.
| [deleted]
| lupire wrote:
| Much easier to just limit total electricity or water usage, at
| the meter.
|
| "Comrade", if you source your own water and don't rely on
| "communism when it's convenient for me", water limits aren't a
| problem.
| joris9000 wrote:
| Rather than disconnecting these type of appliances completely I'd
| rather disconnect them from the cloud and connect locally, for
| example using Home Assistant. I have captured an OTA update for
| my Miele appliance but so far haven't gotten around to poking
| around. Has anyone tried something similar?
| 867-5309 wrote:
| >i fucking hate living in the future
|
| *buys a wifi-enabled fridge*
|
| -\\_(tsu)_/-
| als0 wrote:
| He didn't buy it, it was there when he moved in. If you're
| renting then you can't afford to keep replacing fridges.
| 867-5309 wrote:
| must admit I didn't read past the main tweet!
| 867-5309 wrote:
| >If you're renting then you can't afford to keep replacing
| fridges.
|
| I'm sure you could if you were renting in e.g. Malibu, LA
| for >$100,000/wk
| oliwarner wrote:
| Why do you need to disassemble and unplug a pin header when you
| could just not tell it your AP password?
| firefoxd wrote:
| Ah, that reminds me of my good old Westinghouse Radiohub [1].
| When the internet goes away, you probably won't be able to freeze
| stuff no more.
|
| 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22083759
| auton1 wrote:
| I use AdGuard DNS on my Samsung 'smartTV' to get rid of the ads.
| Drives me nuts that we're forced to have ads on devices we own.
| nivertech wrote:
| Problem: on the Internet nobody knows you're a fridge.
|
| Solution: physically disconnect WiFi.
| dmje wrote:
| You'd just buy a dumb fridge in the first place, no? I mean I
| know with TV it's nearly impossible to buy dumb now but with
| fridges it's (at least in the UK) still "default is dumb"...
| mattbaker wrote:
| The appliances came with the apartment/house the author is in,
| they didn't choose to buy them.
| eterevsky wrote:
| I'm disappointed that all these smart home appliances connect
| exclusively via WiFi. None of them connect via Ethernet even
| though they are stationary and often connecting a cable to them
| could be easy. The WiFi connection is usually unreliable,
| supports only 2.4 GHz and requires multiple steps to establish.
| disillusioned wrote:
| I mean, who the hell has a Cat-5e drop behind their fridge,
| though?
|
| I imagine a product manager took exactly 100ms to calculate
| that the answer to that question is "functionally no one" and
| so there went the $X ethernet connector from the build, for
| patently obvious reasons.
|
| Hell, I'd love to know Sonos's ethernet adoption rate, since
| they certainly have that data. I'd bet it's fairly high since
| Sonos is a bit up-market and sometimes professionally
| installed, or installed by enthusiasts, but I'm willing to
| guess it's < 5%, and realistically, < 1%, even if we only
| obviously limit the sample size to "Sonos devices that are eth
| capable."
| eterevsky wrote:
| Just last year I moved to a new home and was installing
| ethernet around the house. I could've easily made an extra
| port or two in the kitchen.
|
| I generally like receiving a notification when the dishwasher
| is finished with the dishes, but with the current WiFi setup
| it's always broken and I don't have the energy to fix it. So
| I would've used it if it were working over Ethernet and I'm
| not using it now when it can only work over WiFi.
|
| Out of home automation devices Philips Hue works only over
| Ethernet, though there you have the advantage that you can
| place the hub anywhere you like.
| passivate wrote:
| You can say that about anything though. Most people aren't
| writing code or building binaries, so you might as well take
| the ability of the end user to write code or run any unsigned
| unauthorized executables on their PCs. Also most people
| aren't running old ass executables, so screw backwards
| compatibility too. I'm sure it will make operating systems a
| lot less complex if you do down that path, but most people
| here would revolt if that was done by any OS vendor.
| wardedVibe wrote:
| Cory Doctorow has a story on IoT devices being used to control
| the behavior of poor people
| https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
| eclipticplane wrote:
| Can California or New York pass a 'no smart device without an off
| switch' law so the rest of us in other states can buy CA/NY
| appliances?
| kristianpaul wrote:
| I never connected my TV to wifi
| gernb wrote:
| But you still gave them money for a fridge with WiFi signaling to
| them you want more of the same.
| deltaonefour wrote:
| or just don't give it the password. Much simpler.
| carlsborg wrote:
| What happens if you change the WiFi password?
| na85 wrote:
| >i fucking hate living in the future
|
| This pretty much sums up my daily outlook on life.
| chippytea wrote:
| I have done the same on my smart tv. I am worried that if
| everyone starts doing this they will start integrating the wifi
| card into the motherboard.
| kebman wrote:
| Do you make appliances? Want to get rich? Here's your next tag
| line: "We Make Dumb Appliances."
| userbinator wrote:
| Every time I read something like this I couldn't feel happier
| with my late 30s Frigidaire I reinsulated and restored. There's
| actually a thriving market for restoring and repairing old dumb
| appliances, at least in the US, although it's relatively
| underground.
| code_runner wrote:
| Are there any good resources online you can share? Sounds
| interesting.
| thiht wrote:
| Why the hell would you even buy a fridge that has WiFi?
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| Are smart fridges even that common?
|
| I bought all new appliances last year, and none of them were
| smart. I don't even remember seeing any smart ones at the shop.
| Granted, this was an appliance store in a town of about 8000
| people... but it seems to me they're more gimmicks for people
| with too much money than a part of most peoples every day life.
| slothtrop wrote:
| Considering that every tv available through most distributors
| is now a smart-tv, and the general proliferation of IoT, I'd
| see it becoming entirely commonplace unless consumers have an
| alternative among the competition.
| 8fingerlouie wrote:
| I keep most IoT things on a tight leash.
|
| I have a couple of IoT VLANs that devices gets sorted into by my
| level of percieved trust. Things like AppleTV and Sonos goes into
| the trusted one, things like Printers, various chinese IoT like
| Aquara sensors, Eufy cameras and more are put into the untrusted
| one. Trusted devices have static DHCP assigned IPs, as well as
| printers (for AirPrint and mDNS)
|
| Everything in the untrusted VLAN is blocked by MAC address in the
| firewall in the outbound direction.
|
| I keep a (surprisingly small) spreadsheet of all my firewall
| rules, so migrating to a new firewall is a matter of spending 30
| minutes setting up the 50 or so lines from the spreadsheet, of
| which most are rules for allowing inter VLAN traffic, i.e. allow
| AirPlay reverse connections from AirPlay capabale devices.
|
| I should add that i run Eufy cameras in Homekit mode, so they
| only need access to talk to a HomeKit bridge/hub
| (AppleTV/HomePod), and only need internet access for firmware
| updates.
| rjh29 wrote:
| Do you have a plan for when these devices start including their
| own LTE modems?
| 8fingerlouie wrote:
| Stop buying them ?
|
| It's either that, or place them in a faraday cage :)
|
| And at some point in the "not too distant future", everything
| will be running on 5G/6G, and at that point i guess it
| doesn't matter anymore. I'll revert to the tried and true
| methods of applying painters tape over cameras/sensors.
|
| Seriously though, i'm also extremely picky with what kinds of
| IoT stuff i buy. My toothbrush doesn't need WiFi, and neither
| does a whole bunch of other stuff. I can vote with my wallet,
| and hope the EU consumer protection takes care of the rest.
| alex_duf wrote:
| Out of curiosity, how do you control that a device has access
| to its updates, but isn't able to "phone home"?
| 8fingerlouie wrote:
| I don't update unless there's a security fix (haha), i have a
| problem, or a feature i need is released, at which point i
| simply disable the outbound firewall rule temporarily and
| "force" an update through whatever controlplane the device
| has (typically an app).
|
| For security fixes, i usually find out through other channels
| (here or reddit) about some new 0-day, and i will check for
| updates after that.
|
| Considering that the devices are not allowed on the internet,
| and on a very limited network, the risk of a random "drive by
| shooting" is rather low.
| alex_duf wrote:
| ha, that's sort of what I had in mind but I was wondering
| what magic trick was I missing. Thanks for the explanation!
| [deleted]
| monkeynotes wrote:
| Can't you more simply not give the fridge your wifi password?
| Just keep it off of a network, seems much easier than opening it
| up and voiding a warranty.
| alamortsubite wrote:
| 5g and embedded modems will make it so much easier for
| consumers to get their new devices up and running!
| kkfx wrote:
| Mh, so far there are in the market "not-smart fridges and
| freezers", AFAIK no law so far impose buying a connected one
| so... If someone sell crap I see not much reasons to buy...
| cvccvroomvroom wrote:
| My mom's Samsung fridge tells me whenever it opens and closes. I
| had to disable notifications. It implies collection of analytics
| from inside peoples' homes when attached to WiFi.
| walrus01 wrote:
| Just wait until device manufacturers start integrating always-on
| LTE modems with their own SIM cards and billing so they can pull
| device analytics, sell you new advertising, and sell your usage
| patterns to 3rd parties whether or not you ever connect the
| things to your home wifi.
|
| At which point you'll have to disassemble the damned thing and
| physically rip out the LTE modem, possibly resulting in the
| device bricking itself when it can't phone home after a while.
|
| I bet if you're a device manufacturer right now and go to
| t-mobile enterprise sales and tell them you want 200MB of data
| per month per IMEI and you're going to have 50,000 units, you'll
| get a very attractive monthly price per unit.
|
| Mark my words, it'll be commonplace in another 8-10 years.
|
| https://me.me/i/tech-enthusiasts-everything-in-my-house-is-w...
|
| https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
| keraf wrote:
| I heard about a known electronic cigarette brand that plans to
| do this with their devices. The future where all our habits
| will end up being tracked is close.
| KermitTheFrog wrote:
| It's not even close it's already here. Any your smartphone
| could be located in a city with 20-50m accuracy(5G/LTE)
| including your indoor height location. Plus add to this your
| frequent locations, your calls and internet activities,
| spendings(if it shares with your cellular operator) - and
| here you are. And we have a smartphone in every pocket. This
| market is big and each of the producers including fridges
| wants to bite off a piece of the pie.
| raverbashing wrote:
| This sounds like a great way of making me trying to plug into
| it and running it as a wifi-router
|
| Especially given the ridiculous price difference between a
| corporate and a common data plan.
| btgeekboy wrote:
| We're already approaching that point. Most modern cars phone
| home, and my partner's CPAP machine also has a modem that
| reports usage info back home, including to their insurance
| provider.
| scarby2 wrote:
| The CPAP is extremely useful if used correctly (rather than
| just enforce compliance). It allows a clinician to monitor
| remotely for all sorts of issues and follow up with the
| patient.
|
| There are a whole bunch of issues that can occur that a
| patient may not be aware of because they are asleep.
| Generally I wish we'd all use some kind of sleep monitoring
| system or at least we started routine screening for sleep
| disorders
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| My CPAP just has an SD card which I can remove and bring to
| the therapist.
|
| The benefit of this is that I don't have to rely only on
| the therapist, I can also read the card myself with tools
| like OSCAR: https://www.sleepfiles.com/OSCAR/
|
| I would really hate having one that reports via 4G to the
| therapist only.
| thaeli wrote:
| Most of the cellular connection CPAP machines also have a
| SD card slot and will put the full logs on it if you put
| a card in.
| PebblesRox wrote:
| I recall a comment here recently about someone whose
| insurance would only pay for the CPAP if the usage statistics
| showed enough usage. The problem was that the person kept
| unknowingly taking off the mask while sleeping. Talk about a
| stressful situation!
| rwmj wrote:
| I live in an area with no cellphone signal, so if they brick
| themselves without that then it's going to be a problem.
| black_puppydog wrote:
| Interesting thought experiment: if these become as common-
| place as "smart" TVs... you'll be left without a fridge. Are
| there any laws governing that _some_ sort of refrigeration
| has to be available? I mean... seems like "the market
| doesn't provide fridges to part of the population" should
| count as a major market failure and should be regulated to
| avoid it?
| Heliosmaster wrote:
| wouldn't then a new company have an opportunity to fill a
| new niche?
| black_puppydog wrote:
| Doesn't mean they'll go for it. There are many situations
| where no company is willing to offer service. See for
| example mobile internet in sparsely populated areas. So
| the question would then be: do we consider fresh food
| more important than internet? :D
| randcraw wrote:
| "Faraday cage" is my one-size-fits-all answer.
|
| It turns out I kinda have that already. My 1919 house has
| plastered walls, some of which have a wire mesh underlay. It
| blocks wifi signals between rooms beautifully.
| DeathArrow wrote:
| >"Faraday cage" is my one-size-fits-all answer.
|
| Until it won't be legal to impair Big Brother watching you.
| labster wrote:
| The fact that people would even consider living in Faraday
| cages to keep their refrigerator from spying makes me think
| our society went seriously wrong somewhere.
| walrus01 wrote:
| Maybe the Unabomber was a loony and also had a few valid
| points (broken clock is right twice a day, etc) also.
| medion wrote:
| I think he had/has a lot of valid points.
| slackfan wrote:
| nah, no caveat. dude was right.
| mindslight wrote:
| Right in his critique, but he had nothing worthwhile on
| how to address it. Hence his resulting attempt of 1. Send
| bombs to technologists 2. ????? 3. Mass social uprising.
|
| On this particular topic, basic software Freedom would be
| sufficient. But apparently enough people don't even care
| to make purchasing decisions based on anti-features. Or
| at the minimum, say hiring a technician to fix your brand
| new fridge as described in OP.
|
| So, as seems to be the trend, most people are effectively
| content letting technology take away their agency. A
| small number of us can swim in the stream of navigating
| it so we don't get ruled over by it, but once you're
| doing all that work just to tread water it becomes
| awfully tempting to use your understanding to subjugate
| others.
| bombcar wrote:
| My wife asks why I carry the gun in the house. I say it's
| to shoot Decepticons. Wife laughs. Kids laugh. Toaster
| laughs. I shoot the toaster.
| TheSpiceIsLife wrote:
| Do you still get mobile phone reception ok?
|
| Happy to be proven wrong, wouldn't a Faraday Cage need to be
| tuned to absorb whatever wavelength you're aiming to block?
|
| In the same way that you can see in to a microwave because
| the terahertz mm waves can pass through the holes but the
| microwave mm waves are blocked.
| scarby2 wrote:
| Afaik The holes in the faraday cage must be smaller than
| the wavelength you seek to block. If a faraday cage were to
| block WiFi it would also block your cellphone.
| Retric wrote:
| Only if it needs to cross the cage, you can have a base
| station inside the cage and another outside just fine.
| jeanchen wrote:
| So, Faraday cage around the refrigerator? I'll keep this one
| in mind...
| ajb wrote:
| Good luck keeping your car in a faraday cage though.
| throwaway744678 wrote:
| Put your fridge in a bigger one!
| Freestyler_3 wrote:
| My wallet is a faraday cage.
|
| No reading my cards without actually taking them out.
| npteljes wrote:
| >possibly resulting in the device bricking itself
|
| And voiding the warranty for sure.
| the_pwner224 wrote:
| This is already a thing in many cars (many cars a few years
| ago, but almost every car now). Both to show ads in the vehicle
| and to harvest your location data. As well as to sell
| subscriptions for things like remote start from an app, wifi
| hotspot in the car, parental controls/monitoring, etc.
|
| You can disassemble the interior a bit (usually not too
| difficult) and disconnect the antenna from the comms module.
| Depending on the structure of the wiring harness your car uses,
| it may not be possible to easily do that without also removing
| GPS/radio functionality. Some models are now integrating
| WiFi/Bluetooth into the same system.
|
| Alternatively, depending on which manufacturer your car is
| from, you can "acquire" the manufacturer diagnostic/service
| software and disable the cellular connection.
|
| I will give a shoutout to Honda for being pretty good about
| this. The Civic didn't have a cellular connection at least as
| of the 10th gen (up to 2021). Not sure if the new '22 Civic
| does. Also, their infotainment systems run Android and you can
| root/jailbreak it - on the Civic, Accord, HR-V, and others.
| Again, this may change in current model years so double check
| before you buy. And (excepting a few years around 2016-2018)
| Honda also still has physical buttons/knobs for all the
| important controls, instead of putting everything into a
| touchscreen like 90% of companies do these days.
|
| BMW has had a cellular connection in their cars for many years,
| but you can disable the SIM card by programming the TCB through
| ISTA, even on the current G chassis cars. Not sure if that
| completely disables Tx. Also not sure how their just released
| iDrive 8 system handles it though.
|
| Alternatively you could unplug the TCB on the BMWs. That
| requires dropping the headliner on recent ones (annoying but
| not hard), and on the really recent ones I don't _think_ you
| can unplug cellular only (you 'll also lose GPS & some other
| things, potentially including WiFi/BT/NFC, I'm not sure). And
| it'll show a warning on the dash all the time if you unplug it.
| mastax wrote:
| Honda is one of the most conservative car companies. Among
| other things they took way longer to start introducing
| turbochargers into their mainstream lineup. It has its
| benefits.
| seanw444 wrote:
| I never fully understood why my dad only really bought
| Honda vehicles as a kid. Nowadays I do. Less cruft, more
| robustness. They just keep on running. My dad's '91 Accord
| has 320,000+ miles on it now, and it's still trucking
| along.
| arpinum wrote:
| There are legal requirements for enhanced emergency calling
| in European cars. Cars must have the ability to alert
| emergency responders with location data. Don't expect to be
| able to disable internet in cars going forward.
| StanislavPetrov wrote:
| Nothing like the government stealing your freedoms "for
| your own good".
| jhoechtl wrote:
| The Chinese government at least is not in disguise about
| their surveillance plans whereas we see it sneaked in into
| more and more appliances of daily use.
|
| I hate this coming Orwellian future.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Eh? The EU directives are all above board and documented,
| so I'm not sure what you're referring to.
|
| That said, they do need to be monitored at all time;
| abusing that location data for different usage is only
| one piece of legislation away. Which is why it's probably
| best to not gather this information in the first place.
|
| To invoke Godwin's Law, iirc you are no longer required
| to fill in your religion anywhere, because the nazi's
| used records like that to track down Jewish people and
| others they were after.
|
| This is why these privacy laws are so important, and why
| the right to be forgotten should be sacred; you should be
| able to disappear if the governments turn against you.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| If you wait for the government to turn against you to
| attempt to "disappear" it already to late.
|
| The right to be forgotten is the wrong place to push for
| privacy, it should be the "right to never be known".
|
| As to the "EU directives are all above board and
| documented" you know what they say about the road to
| hell, and good intentions right?
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| The right to never be known, in the sense in which I
| think you must mean it here, is fairly simple to obtain.
| Stay off the internet and stay off cell networks.
|
| Oh, you mean you want to be able to have your devices
| send requests to other people's devices and have them
| respond, but at the same time, you want there to be no
| record that your device ever did this? Good luck with
| that.
| jhoechtl wrote:
| You read or interpret this wrong. The EU government might
| be acting in good intention and I acknowledge that. Yet
| consumer electronics has the means to collect data for
| profiling like crazy. EU government data privacy acts are
| weak measures compared to liberal company laws with their
| seats outside the EU jurisdiction. Freemium will nudge
| far to many people to give away their data.
|
| An GDPR relevancy outside the EU is just a paper promise.
| Gare wrote:
| How would you sell a fridge or a car in the EU if you're
| not compliant?
| ekianjo wrote:
| how does that even fit with gdpr in europe? seems like a
| massive invasion of privacy without consent.
| frafra wrote:
| https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/security-
| and-em...
|
| https://ec.europa.eu/justice/article-29/documentation/opi
| nio...
|
| https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/general-
| discu...
|
| It is mandatory to have it installed for new cars, but it
| looks like it can be disabled if the owner prefers to be
| left alone while dying, instead of calling an ambulance
| :D
| [deleted]
| xdennis wrote:
| > it can be disabled if the owner prefers to be left
| alone while dying, instead of calling an ambulance :D
|
| Nobody prefers to die. It's the part where it's capable
| of being active all the time that's worrying.
|
| You also can't control the mandatory microphone. How long
| until someone abuses that (if it hasn't happened
| already)?
| frafra wrote:
| The device is built and tested according to some well-
| defined specifics; it is not connected to the network,
| and it is not capable of recording more than 3 positions
| and send them if an accident occurs, as well as
| establishing a phone call. Anything else is a violation
| perpetrated the manufacturer, as well as faking the
| specific tests that are formulated to check if the device
| is compliant: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-
| content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32...
|
| Abuses can always happen, and we should put reasonable
| checks in place to avoid them. Is the current regulation
| good enough to minimize the risk of having them? I hope
| so.
| codedokode wrote:
| Note that this applies only to eCall system. Any other
| system that might be installed in a car doesn't have to
| stick to these rules.
| frafra wrote:
| It would still need to respect EU privacy regulations (as
| any other instrument, of course), which include consent.
| Nobody is forcing you to be tracked.
| chopin wrote:
| I have a new car and no, it can't be disabled. You can
| only disable tracking by the car company but not
| emergency calling.
|
| Via IMEI tracking the cell providers have your location
| data, willingly or not. If you want to travel anonymously
| you'd better have an oldtimer. I know of lawyers who only
| visit clients with an old car.
| frafra wrote:
| As reported, installation of such device is mandatory
| (first link), but it does not need to be active. This is
| why some car manufacturers disable it upon request (see
| the third link). I mean, BMW and Porche disable that if
| requested.
|
| Devices that allow tracking when no accident occurred,
| violate the current regulation. This is stressed multiple
| times. "not connected to the mobile phone networks until
| a serious accident happens" -- https://ec.europa.eu/newsr
| oom/dae/redirection/document/5963
|
| "it is not permanently connected to mobile networks" -- h
| ttps://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/fr/MEMO
| _1...
|
| "not connected to the mobile phone networks until a
| serious accident happens" -- https://ec.europa.eu/newsroo
| m/dae/redirection/document/5963
|
| There is even a technical test to check if the device is
| compliant with the privacy regulations: "Procedure for
| verifying the lack of traceability of an eCall in-vehicle
| system", where the "Failure to establish the connection
| can be attributed to the 112-based eCall in-vehicle
| system not being registered on the network" --
| https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-
| content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32...
|
| Registering the SIM on the network before an accident
| occurred could be considered a violation indeed.
| chopin wrote:
| Unfortunately, something being legislated does mean
| nothing. In Germany, there has been Covid location
| tracking via an app (Luca App) for venues. Despite
| legislation explicitely forbidding that, police tried and
| gained access to this data.
|
| My previous car sometimes came up with a warning that
| eCall currently is not available. I'd attribute that to
| bad reception which means that connection at least has
| been tried.
| frafra wrote:
| I know, there are plenty of cases (and this is why we
| should defend our rights and support associations like
| https://noyb.eu/ in my opinion), but I would object that
| having an app, running on an always-connected smartphone,
| which register and share data, poses a potential higher
| risk than an embedded device with a much smaller task
| that is tested and validated before being sold on the
| market. There is almost no data record in this case, thus
| a leak would have a minimal impact, while a
| backdoored/tampered/non-compliant hardware would still be
| problematic, but less likely (hopefully).
|
| Your previous car could have had a non-compliant
| implementation, but it could be that the system run a
| passive network scanning from time to time, without
| trying any connection, just because it would be way
| faster to connect to a network and send a message if
| there is an up-to-date list of the compatible available
| operators. Having a better understanding about the
| specifics of the various implementation would be
| interesting. The devil is in the details :)
| codedokode wrote:
| > Devices that allow tracking when no accident occurred,
| violate the current regulation. This is stressed multiple
| times. "not connected to the mobile phone networks until
| a serious accident happens" -- https://ec.europa.eu/newsr
| oom/dae/redirection/document/5963
|
| Note that the linked document applies only to eCall In
| Vehicle System. Nothing prevent manufacturer to install a
| second system, using the same or separate modem, and
| track user's location and actions continuously. If the
| law requires you to install a GPS receiver and a modem,
| it would be uncapitalistic not to try to gain some
| profits from the data.
| frafra wrote:
| Sure, so? Is that mandatory? No. Would it require
| explicit user permission? Yes, as any other device or
| service in EU. The user or the manufacturer always have
| the ability to put extra devices which do whatever, if
| they respect the current regulations. This has nothing to
| do with having eCall installed by default.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| Might be hard to understand for Americans but GDRP is to
| protect you against corporations, not gov.
| dang wrote:
| Please don't take HN threads into nationalistic flamewar.
| It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it
| is for.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| kdmdkalsn wrote:
| raxxorraxor wrote:
| > And it'll show a warning on the dash
|
| That means it will fail the bi-annual mandatory check.
| dwighttk wrote:
| >it may not be possible to easily do that without also
| removing GPS/radio functionality. Some models are now
| integrating WiFi/Bluetooth into the same system.
|
| I don't really need any of those with my phone in the car.
| walrus01 wrote:
| it's all good until the local NPR station bricks your mazda's
| infotainment unit
|
| https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=npr.
| ..
| Sakos wrote:
| Wow. Broken image handling in code requiring a hardware
| component swap. That's all kinds of awful.
| pilsetnieks wrote:
| Or a demon starts haunting your car radio:
| https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/76hel39
| jhoechtl wrote:
| That's KISS on a HD+ radio.
|
| Seriously as a European I do not know enough about HD+
| radio but DAB radio can transmit pictures which until now
| is mostly used to transfer album covers.
|
| In due time we will see this abused to hammer ads down
| our throats.
| akira2501 wrote:
| > In due time we will see this abused to hammer ads down
| our throats.
|
| When the service was first implemented, that was a
| possibility. Now, the most we're likely to take advantage
| of it is to show you a display ad that matches with the
| current "over the air" ad that you're hearing.
| Advertisers aren't interested in selling on top of
| someone else's advertising, and programming doesn't want
| their displays messed with outside of commercial breaks.
|
| Plus.. it's a pretty low value service and honestly not
| worth selling. Advertisers all want demographic driven
| sales now, so those channels aren't all that useful to
| us.
|
| RadioDNS opens the door somewhat to this, because it can
| direct your radio to start a stream instead of listening
| "over the air." However, there, we're happy to be able to
| replace the over the air ads with programmatic digital
| ads and that sales channel really doesn't care about
| "additional display opportunities" either.
|
| Be happy that radio is slow to implement standards, and
| usually too far behind the punch to get the expected
| return out of them. So.. just album art for the
| foreseeable future.
| egypturnash wrote:
| Oh wow the reason this scary face keeps on showing up
| sporadically is _hilarious_.
| hprotagonist wrote:
| or until Queen starts haunting a _demon's_ car, then you
| know you've realbeezlebub has a devil put aside for me,
| for meeeeeeeeee
| klabb3 wrote:
| > Both to show ads in the vehicle and to harvest your
| location data.
|
| The discourse 5-10 years ago was that this was the price you
| pay for free (as in beer) consumer services. In reality, no
| such principles exist, and everything is instead a numbers
| game. Do enough people complain? Does it factor into their
| purchase decisions?
|
| Unfortunately, average people seem to not value their
| attention, even as everyone else is fighting tooth and nail
| for a share of it.
| animal531 wrote:
| It's time to start developing the NoScript/UBlock of the
| future, which will hopefully be able to block all the ads
| running in cars, fridges, shops, floating drones, sidewalks
| etc.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Or for the entrepreneurs and investors to actually invest
| in low-tech products again; most kitchen appliances only
| need some solid state chips to control displays and
| programs and the like.
| ekianjo wrote:
| problem is that low tech products disappear from shelves.
| its almost impossible to buy a dumb tv anymore.
| goldenkey wrote:
| You can still buy a 4k projector without any of the BS.
| ekianjo wrote:
| Thats not a TV. But I agree its a good alternative.
| goldenkey wrote:
| It's better than a TV imho. If one really wants to make
| it as similar to a TV as possible, they can ceiling mount
| a short throw projector and paint the target wall with
| special non-reflective paint. It'll appear as if the
| picture is coming right from the wall.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| We bought whatever smart tv and not connected to wifi and
| use apple tv instead. I don't see problems with it.
| 93po wrote:
| Until they start coming with cell modems, or they broker
| deals with ISPs to be able to access any router leased by
| them, or they connect to any open SSID the second it sees
| it, or they broker deals with other device manufacturers
| to hotspot off them
| btbuildem wrote:
| Shouldn't the old supply-and-demand sort that out?
| codedokode wrote:
| Nobody tells you about ads and tracking when you buy a
| TV. Therefore a consumer can be easily fooled.
| M911T wrote:
| From what I've seen in IRL stores, there's no interest in
| dumb TVs. Everyone wants smart TVs, and I haven't seen
| any new TV that was dumb.
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| What people are interested in is _cheap_ TVs and the
| tradeoff they are making is they buy a smart TV that has
| a lower price because it 's subsidized with advertising
| revenue.
|
| Maybe people want internet connected TVs to attach to
| streaming services, but I doubt anyone _really_ wants
| what we are calling "Smart" TVs
| ekianjo wrote:
| How does the supply and demand work if you cant buy any
| alternative anymore. Its like trying to buy non LED light
| bulbs.
| yxwvut wrote:
| The advertising element of 'smart' devices subsidizes
| their price. You're competing against devices that are
| both more convenient and cheaper, and whose drawbacks are
| not immediately apparent to the general consumer, both
| because there's no requirement to state plainly the
| implications of the 'smart' technology on privacy and
| data sharing, and because such drawbacks are more
| abstract.
| Thlom wrote:
| I don't think I need a display on any kitchen appliance?
| bo0tzz wrote:
| I think you can buy a 5G jammer on aliexpress /s
| aformerex wrote:
| Aren't those just faraday cages?
| topranks wrote:
| "Jamming" normally means interfering with a radio signal
| by broadcasting on that same frequency at a higher power.
| As opposed to something passive like a faraday cage to
| stop signal getting in to a given area.
| praptak wrote:
| You can't realistically put a Faraday cage around your
| car's spying module.
| waspight wrote:
| Just put it around the car.
| Infernal wrote:
| Good luck finding a Faraday cage without a built in LTE
| modem these days.
| praptak wrote:
| Yo dawg, we herd you liek Faraday cages...
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| You cannot have ads in cars in France (and generally -
| Europe). That must be an insane experience.
| adastra22 wrote:
| > Both to show ads in the vehicle
|
| WTF. Is this a thing? How?
| the_pwner224 wrote:
| My friend's 2018 Nissan Rogue displays logos of some nearby
| restaurants / gas stations / stores on the navigation map.
| The brands that are shown change every once in a while.
|
| Some cars show nearby points of interest as a feature; this
| isn't that.
| NonNefarious wrote:
| People still use integrated navigation systems?
| slothtrop wrote:
| A large integrated touch-screen as opposed to your
| smartphone? Yeah.
|
| These have improved somewhat
| yurishimo wrote:
| Google maps/Waze shows these business logos as well. In
| certain cases, the navigation assistant will also say the
| business' name when navigating.
|
| Example: Instead of "Turn left onto Broad Street", it
| will say, "Turn left after the Wendy's".
|
| It's pretty subtle right now, but I have no doubts that
| it will get more nefarious in the future.
| adgjlsfhk1 wrote:
| I don't think that's an ad. I think Google just knows
| that a giant restaurant sign is a lot easier to see than
| a tiny street sign
| gruez wrote:
| True, but instructions based on intersection features are
| better than both. Apple maps does this with instructions
| like "go past this light then at the next one turn right"
| antsar wrote:
| You really think no money changes hands to power this
| feature? The last ~decade of tech teaches one to assume
| otherwise...
| fartcannon wrote:
| Can't it be both? Google's entire career is combining
| something useful (gmail) with something shady (reading
| your emails to sell ads).
|
| This sounds exactly like that.
| eulers_secret wrote:
| If there's an option to disable this "feature", then it's
| probably not advertising.
|
| Good thing Apple Maps doesn't subtly repeat biz names to
| me until I remember them. If this ever happens, I'll move
| back to paper maps.
|
| I don't care if I have to pull over, it beats this mental
| manipulation and my mind being an advertisers plaything.
| dwighttk wrote:
| To be fair, for some turns that is a better experience.
| andyjohnson0 wrote:
| > People still use integrated navigation systems?
|
| Yes. I have a ~5yro Ford Fiesta with navigation built in
| and I massively prefer it to using a phone app.
|
| Its standalone (mapping is on an sd card) so I know it
| will still work if I'm in a remote area with poor network
| coverage. It also has physical, tactile buttons (no
| touchscreen) that my muscle memory can learn, and which
| don't suddenly reposition themselves at the whims of some
| app ux designer. It can automatically download traffic
| updates via bluetooth on my phone, but its otherwise
| "self hosted" on my car.
|
| Basically, it just works the way I expect and doesn't try
| to distract me. Which is all that I need.
| adastra22 wrote:
| FYI you can download maps to your phone too. That plus
| CarPlay is pretty much the same experience.
| andyjohnson0 wrote:
| I know. But my car has mapping for the whole of the uk,
| wheras afaik google maps only lets me download routes or
| city-sized areas. And I'd have to remember to plan ahead
| and download over wifi.
| fartcannon wrote:
| I would use my built on mapping for those reasons if I
| had any, but just as an aside, OSMAnd+ is an offline
| heavy duty free FOSS navigation and maps app. It's not
| quite as user friendly as google maps unfortunately, but
| the offline, downloadable navigation maps have saved my
| ass a few times.
| IAmGraydon wrote:
| I don't think it's a thing. I've never seen a car that
| shows ads. Logos in the nav system doesn't really qualify
| IMO.
| donw wrote:
| Let's not forget that the infrastructure bill passed in
| August requires all vehicles sold in the US to have a remote
| kill switch by 2026.
|
| I'm sure _that_ won 't be abused. Not at all.
| skrtskrt wrote:
| It requires the government to investigate this possibility
| and make an official recommendation on whether and how to
| implement it.
| ekianjo wrote:
| > government to investigate this possibility and make an
| official recommendation
|
| Basically just a long phrasing to say they will do after
| finding a proper excuse like terrorism or sex trafficking
| seanw444 wrote:
| Think of the kids!
| ekianjo wrote:
| Always bet on kids to help pass any kind of otherwise
| eggregious abuse of rights
| mardifoufs wrote:
| Isn't a very similar EU regulation already well beyond
| the proposal stage at this point and is currently getting
| implemented? If that's actually the case, I don't see how
| it wouldn't make it to the US once the systems needed are
| already available. Unless the alcohol interlock
| system/drowsiness detection isn't a type of killswitch,
| though from what I understand that's pretty much what's
| being proposed in the US.
|
| > _Summary
|
| All new vehicles sold from May 2022 must be fitted with
| advanced safety features, including:
|
| monitors that detect when a driver has become drowsy or
| distracted
|
| emergency stop signal to help prevent rear-end collisions
|
| rear-view camera or parking sensors
|
| alcohol interlock system to prevent drunk driving.
|
| These systems will help reduce serious accidents on
| Europe's roads.
|
| This initiative sets out the test procedures and
| technical requirements for approving vehicles fitted with
| advanced safety features._
|
| [Source: https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-
| regulation/have-your-sa...]
| dtech wrote:
| At first glance I don't see how any of these qualify as
| _remote_ kill switches.
| mardifoufs wrote:
| I agree that they aren't outright remote kill switches.
| But a tamper-proof on/off switch, that will presumably be
| almost impossible to trivially bypass, coupled with
| remote updates... It's getting close.
|
| Especially since those systems will need to be easy to
| update OTA. And even if there are no malicious OTA
| capabilities (though the EU has already shown interest in
| LEO being able to remotely disable a car a few years ago)
| , they are using pretty subjective measures that might
| affect your driving experience or render your car
| unusable after a single update. What if the drowsiness
| detection does not work well on your skin color or on
| your heartbeat, or on your eye shape?
|
| I guess It's just a bit creepy to me that your own car
| can police you autonomously with little recourse.
| blqrt wrote:
| The drowsiness detection isn't a kill switch, but the
| camera version of it is beyond creepy:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_drowsiness_detection
|
| Cars used to be a safe space where one could get away
| from being monitored and listened to by other people.
| This is no longer the case.
|
| I wonder why people accept it. Does it appeal to the
| narcissism, i.e., people _like_ to be monitored at all
| times because it makes them feel important?
| goodpoint wrote:
| > Cars used to be a safe space where one could get away
| from being monitored and listened to by other people.
| This is no longer the case
|
| Now it's the complete opposite. You have way better
| privacy on an feet or a train.
| philistine wrote:
| Cars are a health crisis. So many people have died
| needlessly due to cars that it's easy to understand
| Europe's drive to make them safer.
| ekianjo wrote:
| deaths on the roads have been declining year on year.
| there is no crisis except fake ones driven by politicians
| codingdave wrote:
| Deaths on the roads have been declining _because_ of the
| years of focus on safety improvements. Those numbers show
| that these efforts are working.
|
| We should certainly keep an eye on the features and have
| productive dialogue about it. But denying safety concerns
| seems to be a fairly egregious twisting of the facts.
| ekianjo wrote:
| > because of the years of focus on safety improvements.
|
| dont be too hasty to jump from correlation to causation.
| the numbers were declining before politicians did
| anything about road safety.
| codingdave wrote:
| Please define which ranges of dates you are talking
| about. The first time politician worried about road
| safety enough to pass a law was in 1903. Are you claiming
| that number were declining before 1903? Or are you
| referring to larger scale efforts, like national road
| safety acts in the USA? That would be 1966 (which is the
| exact date the current downward trend began, FWIW). Or do
| you have another time range in mind for "before
| politicians did anything about road safety."
| rndgermandude wrote:
| Sure, they have been declining overall[0]. But here in
| Germany, we still have 2.3M traffic accidents, 321K
| injuries and 2654 fatalities[1]. While I'd agree that
| 2.6K fatalities per year for 83M population doesn't reach
| the level of crisis (but 321K injuries, even if many will
| be minor ones, to me sound crisis-adjacent at least),
| still a lot of these accidents and injuries and deaths
| could be avoided with tech we have today.
|
| That said, the "drowsiness" cameras in particular seem
| problematic, while the rear-view cameras for
| reversing/parking seem not problematic[2].
|
| [0] The 2022 numbers compared to 2021 saw quite an
| increase, in Germany at least[1], tho. I'd _guess_ it
| might have a lot to do with people "going outside" again
| a lot more, including fewer people still being in full-
| time home office and thus needing to commute again.
|
| [1] https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-
| Environment/Traffi...
|
| [2] Anecdote: my mom recently narrowly avoided running
| into/running over a kid crawling on the street when she
| was reversing out of a parking spot, thanks to the rear-
| camera and sensors which immediately sounded alarms;
| she'd not have had a chance to see the kid in time
| without that according to her. While she was going very
| slow and chances are it wouldn't have been a life-
| threatening injury, it would have been some injury
| regardless with a lot more stress and trauma for
| everybody involved, the kid, her, the kid's parents.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| But road safety has only increased in terms of accidents
| per km driven. There's just too many cars on the road
| now.
|
| I think we should push for full self driving asap though.
|
| Taking the driver out of the equation means no longer
| stuffing cars wth systems intended to second-guess the
| driver and their abilities. No more need to check for
| mobile phone use because the occupants are free to do
| what they want. No more need for speed cameras or
| distance between cars. More efficiency due to people not
| constantly overtaking because they're in a hurry.
|
| Right now it's becoming this insane situation where a
| driver is not trusted at all and second-guessed at every
| corner.
|
| I don't own a car anymore and I hope I will never need
| one again. I don't want to drive like this, constantly
| being looked over my shoulder. It's not worth that
| hassle.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| > Right now it's becoming this insane situation where a
| driver is not trusted at all and second-guessed at every
| corner.
|
| Well a self driving car will give you no control over
| where you are going at all, i am not sure thats better
| from the point of view of liberty.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| Yes but you no longer have the burden of control and
| responsibility. That's a huge difference.
|
| Personally I hate driving so I'd be really happy if I
| could just read a book, surf the web or watch a movie
| while travelling. For me driving is pure wasted time.
|
| I know some people actually enjoy driving :) But for me
| it feels this way.
| Cicero22 wrote:
| I wonder why people accept it. Does it appeal to the
| narcissism, i.e., people like to be monitored at all
| times because it makes them feel important?
|
| I think it's pretty much like boiling a frog. The trend
| will continue, and people will have less and less
| privacy. At this point the marginal benefit of privacy in
| a car doesn't matter to most people, as saddening as that
| is.
| mardifoufs wrote:
| The european regulation discusses using cameras too! IIRC
| the manufacturers have a certain detection percentage
| threshold to achieve and they have commented that they
| will require stuff like visual muscle twitching
| detection, eye tracking, head tilt evaluation and even
| heartbeat sensors etc.
| kortilla wrote:
| That's incredibly dumb either way. What excuse do they
| have for this one?
| passivate wrote:
| https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/infrastructure-bill-
| track-...
| throwaway0x7E6 wrote:
| "it doesn't say 'kill switch'. it says 'advanced drunk
| and impaired driving prevention technology'"
|
| utterly deboonked
| donw wrote:
| So, a kill switch with extra marketing.
| whywhywhywhy wrote:
| Someone paid them to add it to the bill
| SturgeonsLaw wrote:
| seanw444 wrote:
| Or, rather, mask-on. Given the last couple years. Ha.
| [deleted]
| lwhi wrote:
| Could custom Faraday cages be integrated?
| dlsa wrote:
| Its all very interesting as an idea. But in reality when
| things go fully tracked you'll be fined for not having
| location data for every trip. It will impact insurance.
| Your registration. Even basic road usage. People have this
| idea right now that public roads will always stay free.
| This is not guaranteed.
|
| Even the coming road taxes are all about constant tracking.
| How far / which road did you drive? They'll demand the
| answer. And you put a faraday cage to stop this?
| Suspicious. The default assumption is going to be fraud.
| Criminal behavior.
|
| All the EVs will soon enough have some variety of tracking
| sooner or later. So thats basically all new vehicles. The
| alternatives will also, whatever they are. Hydrogen?
|
| Transport privacy is likely dead already.
| BenjiWiebe wrote:
| Well maybe the auto manufacturers will push the cell
| carriers to finally have service everywhere then...
| That'd be nice.
| the_pwner224 wrote:
| Afaik, on pretty much every modern car the single main
| antenna unit (usually the shark fin on the roof) handles
| cellular and GPS (Rx only) and radio (AM/FM, and often also
| weather/traffic, Rx only).
|
| So you'll lose the other things if you put it in a Faraday
| cage.
|
| A cage is a bad way to do it anyway. It's easier to
| disconnect the cable between the antenna & the telematics
| module (which has the SIM and control electronics in it).
| Or disconnect the power to the telematics module. Etc.
| Depending on the wiring harness style and design of the
| car's electronics, that may also let you disconnect just
| the cellular antenna while leaving the GPS/radio antennas
| connected.
|
| In the future we might see those components getting
| integrated together... But you can always physically
| destroy/remove the antenna.
| [deleted]
| jhoechtl wrote:
| > But you can always physically destroy/remove the
| antenna
|
| Unless the device itself becomes the antenna or is
| reacting passively as is the case in RFID.
| the_pwner224 wrote:
| That's already happening :)
|
| If you have an automatic toll transponder (ez-pasz,
| etc.), those things are read very frequently even when
| you're not going through a toll meter. There's info on
| this online.
|
| TPMS sensors also transmit a serial number. I wouldn't
| put it past the NSA to have sensors embedded in certain
| roads to track that.
|
| And of course, dragnet automatic license plate scanning /
| tracking is already ubiquitous and there's really not
| anything you can do about it. Use a bicycle instead, I
| guess...
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| My Irish one wasn't. It beeps when it's being read and it
| was only read at toll ports.
| dsr_ wrote:
| Sitting next to an internal combustion engine in a mostly-
| metal box is already pretty noisy as RF environments go.
| It's much easier to find and disable the antenna than to
| try to shield it off.
| PeterStuer wrote:
| Do not forget to repeat your intervention after every service
| at an officially brand recognized service center.
| judge2020 wrote:
| > and to harvest your location data.
|
| Can't find the reference but don't they use this for
| generating precise topological data?
| codedokode wrote:
| You should not use somebody else's car to gather
| topological data without permission.
| jhoechtl wrote:
| > At which point you'll have to disassemble the damned thing
| and physically rip out the LTE modem, possibly resulting in the
| device bricking itself when it can't phone home after a while.
|
| I wish the guy best luck with his unplug solution. I recently
| did something comparable and was first lucky to discover when
| unplugging antennas from the board the device seemingly went on
| unaffected just to find out that it behaved erratic: Input was
| terribly lagging up to the point of being unusable to
| interoperate with. Reluctantly and in defeat I had to re-attach
| the antenna. I doubt it was designed to behave like this on
| purpose, but the CPU being tripped for operating out of regular
| parameters.
|
| However intentionally bricking the device when it can't phone
| home is a very likely future.
| justinclift wrote:
| Yeah. I'm starting to think "open source" appliances would be
| good thing to start creating.
|
| Of course, it's probably a bunch of effort (eg electrical
| compliance, RF compliance, etc).
|
| Kind of thinking it might be suitable for crowd sourcing. :)
| samwillis wrote:
| I'm fairly sure, at least in Europe, there will be legislation
| that prevents this without explicit positive content from the
| consumer. I suspect GDPR already covers it in fact.
|
| My expectation is the online tracking/advertising is about to
| hit an incredible hard legislative period. The change that is
| coming is big, and the fallout it going to seriously badly hit
| some business models and corporations.
|
| However, you are completely right, they will try anything and
| everything to continue.
| DeathArrow wrote:
| >I'm fairly sure, at least in Europe, there will be
| legislation that prevents this without explicit positive
| content from the consumer. I suspect GDPR already covers it
| in fact.
|
| Judging by the new CSAM legislation being pushed by EU
| bureaucrats, your fridge won't report to its maker but to EU
| commission and maybe to your own government.
| sofixa wrote:
| The fridge couldn't contain CSAM ( unless people keeping
| kids in fridges becomes a massive problem somehow), so it's
| not really comparable.
| DeathArrow wrote:
| >The fridge couldn't contain CSAM
|
| That's not the point of the legislation.
| sofixa wrote:
| But it is, at least on paper, to combat child sexual
| exploitation by preventively searching for any related
| content in communications. That's the stated goal, that's
| what it does. It has serious ramifications ( broken
| encryption is broken), can be abused for other things,
| etc. but that's the purpose.
|
| So a fridge with very limited embedded storage doesn't
| really match.
| pessimizer wrote:
| Of course it could, it's a networked computer with
| storage. I'm guessing there's a 0% chance it's not
| running a webserver.
| sofixa wrote:
| Extremely limited embedded storage, so not really.
| izacus wrote:
| > I'm fairly sure, at least in Europe, there will be
| legislation that prevents this without explicit positive
| content from the consumer. I suspect GDPR already covers it
| in fact.
|
| I can't seem to find the relevant part of GDPR that would
| even attempt to cover that - beyond any tracking data sent
| back to the manufacturer.
| ratg13 wrote:
| I don't think GDPR is as relevant here either, but
| installing a transmitter in a car that you can't turn off
| would be irradiating someone against their will.
|
| France doesn't even have WiFi in schools for this reason.
| Hard to imagine they would allow something like this in a
| vehicle.
| izacus wrote:
| Vehicles have built-in hotspots and LTE modems in Europe
| for years now. Pretty much any german luxury brand car
| these days will come with builtin LTE modem for
| navigation traffic and other similar systems.
|
| Also, use of your home internet modem to transmit a ISP-
| only open wifi is also legal according to many EU laws.
| c_o_n_v_e_x wrote:
| At a minimum, the transmitter would need to comply with
| RF exposure limits.
| 369548684892826 wrote:
| Irradiation is usually taken to mean ionizing radiation,
| which isn't what anyone would transmit from a car.
| samwillis wrote:
| IANAL but I think anything that can be potentially
| personally identifiable, with tracking associated, would
| be. If you have "registered" your appliance (for that
| extended warranty), you have given them your details which
| are then associated with the device.
|
| Say you are Samsung, you have a fridge with a camera on it
| that keeps track of what's in the fridge "for the user", so
| they can see inside their fridge even when not at home. Now
| add in some image recognition, automatically tracking
| exactly what's in the fridge, how often it's used, when
| it's running low. Now you have some of the most valuable
| consumer data possible to sell to data brokers. That is
| defiantly covered by GDPR.
| AstralStorm wrote:
| Only in so far that they have to notify you what data is
| collected, for what imaginary purpose and who is managing
| it. It's not personal information according to GDPR,
| unless combined with something else that is.
| walrus01 wrote:
| they'll probably try to get people to positively opt in to a
| ToS and GDPR set of terms during the online purchase process,
| which we _know_ people will aggressively click "yes/i
| accept/agree" in order to continue, if the price, product and
| marketing are sufficiently compelling.
| martin-adams wrote:
| That fails the explicit consent test for GDPR for what I
| understand. You can always opt out at any time to.
| samwillis wrote:
| Authorities are already cracking down on the use of dark
| patterns for tricking people into opting into tacking
| without explicit informed consent. So yes, they will try
| that, then they will be found out and fined. Then they will
| be forced to put a big warning screen on front of the
| fridge just like all those pop ups we now have on the web.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| People will still buy it and click through, because they
| want their junk, no matter what it does with their data.
|
| I can't count how many times my friends and family said
| _" I don't care"_ when I tried to educate them on how
| their devices or software spy on them.
|
| People who really care about privacy enough not to buy
| stuff that spies on them are rare, and becoming rarer
| every year as more and more kids grow up in a world where
| being spied upon is normal.
| walrus01 wrote:
| I bet that a sufficiently motivated ui designer could
| design a system that matched all the requirements of
| having people explicitly consent, such as scrolling all
| the way to the bottom of a ToS and typing "yes sell my
| data" into a box, but also get people to just do it in
| order to complete an order checkout process workflow.
| ListenLinda wrote:
| I think the thing we need to watch out for is using LoraWan in
| devices. It's basically a free low bandwidth network. Amazon
| has already included a gateway in some of their devices.
| yc-kraln wrote:
| This is what NB-IOT is for, and it's already happening.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| I was saying this for a while - the rights to private property
| are going the way of dodo.
|
| If the manufacturer can observe the device remotely, can
| control the device, can add or remove functionality, decide to
| stop selling you spare parts so you have to buy a new one, or
| brick it at any time - meanwhile you cant get the device to do
| what you want, or even to stop showing you ads?
|
| You are not an owner, you are just sucker paying the bill. John
| deer agrees, in their submission to the court the argued that
| the farmer is not the owner of the tractor they bought.
|
| This is worse than taxes, at least there you get a vote
| mongol wrote:
| Next step is that John Deere wants to be paid as percentage
| of farmer's revenue.
| mciancia wrote:
| I wouldn't be surprised if that most the biggest reason for so
| much pushing for 5g - they probably want to get some standard
| with good deployment/coverage that can handle massive amount of
| devices per cell before they start to doing it at scale.
|
| 3g definetly was bad for the, maybe lte is not scaling well
| enough for having each bulb in the house connected to the
| network without wifi ;D
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| I mentioned in this [1] comment that so far Vint Cerf is the
| only person who has touched on what may become the most
| important digital rights battle of the century - the right _not
| to be connected_.
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30975725
| kcplate wrote:
| Tony Soprano: "First thing I did was rip out all that GPS shit"
| mongol wrote:
| So when do you accept the terms & conditions? The fridge will
| not be cold unless you do?
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| >with their own SIM cards and billing
|
| That is the final barrier. Right now, they can't financially
| justify an always-on "hard" link.
| Fnoord wrote:
| Already happened with the coffee machine at work.
| ac29 wrote:
| > I bet if you're a device manufacturer right now and go to
| t-mobile enterprise sales and tell them you want 200MB of data
| per month per IMEI and you're going to have 50,000 units,
| you'll get a very attractive monthly price per unit.
|
| Any ball park idea what this price might be? $10/year/device?
| Less?
| technothrasher wrote:
| > Mark my words, it'll be commonplace in another 8-10 years.
|
| Oh, I think it will be sooner than that, and beyond that, it
| won't even be your appliance. You'll be renting it for only
| $49.95/month, and for only $4.99/month more you can have the
| RecipePlus(tm) subscription and see what all your friends are
| cooking, comes with ExtraCare repair and monitoring service
| too! Even more discounts when you rent the entire kitchen
| appliance suite.
| st_goliath wrote:
| > Just wait until device manufacturers start integrating
| always-on LTE modems with their own SIM cards ...
|
| Just wait until someone deliberately buys such a "smart"
| appliance, tears the SIM card out (or does some free-style
| rewiring of the PCB), and starts prodding around what they can
| reach on the other side. They might even be so kind as to take
| a look at the analytics/remote-control protocol, maybe pull
| some credentials out of the SoC and provide a free fuzz testing
| service to the manufacturer.
| btbuildem wrote:
| Free, no-sunset cellular data? Yes please.
| rollcat wrote:
| I think we're going to need a law to regulate this at some
| point. I'm normally a fan of voting with your wallet, but it's
| getting increasingly impossible to find non-"smart" devices:
| TVs are the most common offender, but even Roomba's budget
| option comes with WiFi nowadays.
|
| Right to Disconnect? I want my Right to Disconnect.
| dhzhzjsbevs wrote:
| What's the bet you stuck your nose up at your parents that
| wouldn't "just learn the new tech" when you were younger?
| badkitty wrote:
| This has nothing to do with "kids these days", and
| everything to do with redefining ownership.
|
| When these backhaul comms go in this hardware, that
| "purchase" doesn't convey ownership. I would describe it as
| a rental in ownership's clothing.
|
| It's not about 'learn the new tech' - it's 'learn when the
| company decides you don't need a feature or just decides to
| no longer support it' and remotely disables
| dhzhzjsbevs wrote:
| BenjiWiebe wrote:
| Why coreboot? Is it pretty common to have laptop/desktop
| firmware send usage data over WiFi or Ethernet?
|
| I'd be impressed. The firmware on my devices anyways
| seems to be the minimum they could get away with...
| cesarb wrote:
| > Is it pretty common to have laptop/desktop firmware
| send usage data over WiFi or Ethernet?
|
| Have you heard of Computrace? It comes pre-installed on
| the firmware of many popular brands of computers, and it
| does send data over WiFi or Ethernet.
| dhzhzjsbevs wrote:
| Because we're talking about freedoms and hardware
| ownership here.
|
| I know there is lots of middle ground between coreboot,
| what windows does, what an iPhone does, and what a
| Samsung fridge does but my point is that it's really hard
| to judge wether you're just becoming an old man talking
| about the kids these days.
|
| If you can't understand why I'm poking fun at the Apple
| fan Bois, here's exactly why:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31558875
|
| Want to bitch and moan about Samsung smart fridges? Start
| closer to home. With your wallet and your yearly phone
| contract.
| rollcat wrote:
| Then your bet would've been lost. My father has been
| building custom alarm systems in the early 90s, before
| going fulltime IT. It was hard to get half a step ahead of
| him in tech news, even for a minute ;)
|
| When exactly did this smart device thing turn bad? Maybe
| it's been bad all along? I refused to use a smartphone
| until 2014 or so. My first Android got Cyanogen within
| about a month. When I shopped for my first Roomba (recently
| RIP), I specifically avoided the WiFi models.
|
| Nowadays the "smart" devices are almost unavoidable, so on
| my LAN, each one gets its own set of firewall rules
| (usually to block them from the Internet completely). If it
| can't work that way - it gets returned. I've also set up a
| host-based blocklist for ads/trackers, for the entire LAN.
|
| It should not be this hard to protect your privacy, but the
| current trend is to make this impossible even for the power
| users. Right to Disconnect should be a thing.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| I fail to see the relevance
|
| One is learning new tech, the other is loosing your rights
| dhzhzjsbevs wrote:
| You're over indexing.
|
| s/learn/adapt
| IAmGraydon wrote:
| They're the same thing seen from different perspectives.
| eddieroger wrote:
| Primarily being Devil's advocate here, but where exactly
| was one granted the right to disconnect? All of these
| tools require you to accept a EULA to use them in the
| first place (to varying enforceability [1]), so you are
| opting in to their terms when you start using the device.
| If you want to opt out or disconnect, stop using it.
| Likewise, if they change terms, you have to be notified
| and can stop using it at that time. I don't think the
| system is great or fair, and it's definitely tipped in
| favor of the corporations, but the I also don't think
| it's fair to get mad at a refrigerator for working in a
| way you don't like after you made the informed decision
| to buy it. I don't want a wifi refrigerator, so I won't
| buy one, then I don't want to worry about what data it's
| collecting about me.
|
| 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-
| user_license_agreement#Enf...
| [deleted]
| nagestri wrote:
| I just don't see it happening though.
|
| I imagine our leaders won't start thinking about this until
| we already have ubiquitous 5G / IoT .
|
| I almost would say there is a better chance of a law that
| says you can't disconnect.
| perceptronas wrote:
| After articles [1] where expensive Samsung TV show ads I
| personally avoid anything Samsung. No reason to incentivize their
| anti-consumer behavior.
|
| [1] - https://www.zdnet.com/home-and-office/home-
| entertainment/i-s...
| FargaColora wrote:
| Same. Samsung as a brand is dead to me. It is their right to
| update previously purchased TVs to show adverts. It is my right
| to consider their brand toxic swill.
| webinvest wrote:
| What brands are you looking at now instead?
| thn-gap wrote:
| Has anyone worked on fighting back this kind of telemetry/spyware
| of essential consumer appliances?
|
| I'm thinking something similar to what https://adnauseam.io/
| does, but but amplified:
|
| 1. Someone reverse engineer what does the device send to which
| address. 2. Block the particular device to access internet (and
| make it easy for others too). 3. Constantly send bogus data to
| the manufacturer so the personal data they get overall loses
| value or is unusable. Make it easy for a lot of people to do it
| as well, or even just rent a bot farm.
|
| There's too many legit and good services that end up being turned
| down due to abuse and DDos, and they don't even bring anything
| good to the attackers. Why not using these techniques for
| something actually good to consumers privacy?
| lupire wrote:
| 0. Buy a "dumb" device that works better.
| closewith wrote:
| I'm trying to do this now, but dumb high-quality appliances
| are hard to come by and much more expensive. I don't think
| there's any dumb TVs at the state of the art.
| bonzini wrote:
| Dumb TVs are sold as digital signage. They are the state of
| the art for durability/reliability but they typically have
| a screen from the "previous" generation, so for example
| they might not have HDR.
| ss108 wrote:
| It seems that less and less such devices are being produced.
| Mumps wrote:
| for 3. I wonder if you can go a step further and _pummel_ them
| with extra data. like insane amounts of (bogus) data. At some
| point even plain s3 storage costs will become problematic for
| them.
| encrux wrote:
| Why would you want to go out of your way to send bogus data to
| the manufacturer?
|
| I'm all for being able to choose whether or not to disclose
| that data, but then we'll also have to accept different choices
| than ours. There's no point in sabotaging others.
| car_analogy wrote:
| > There's no point in sabotaging others.
|
| We're already being sabotaged, by manufacturers - what else
| would you call this sometimes hidden, non-disablable
| connectivity/"telemetry", and the disappearance of dumb
| options? The only question is if we let them get away with it
| scot-free.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| Advertisements for products invade our lives, unbidden,
| nearly every second of every day. Turnabout, as they say, is
| fair play.
| krageon wrote:
| > Why would you want to go out of your way to send bogus data
| to the manufacturer?
|
| Because getting a ton of garbage will positively stimulate
| them to stop trusting this data. That helps everyone.
| widjit wrote:
| Though more likely no one will notice/care and they will
| just sell the bad data regardless
| Nextgrid wrote:
| If someone's buying the data they will care sooner or
| later. After all, if they wanted bogus data, they can
| generate it themselves instead of buying it.
| barbazoo wrote:
| Please someone tell me what anyone would do with data
| obtained from a fridge.
| [deleted]
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Customer is out of cheese. Supermarket texts and emails
| you asking if you want cheese delivery (bundled with
| other items).
| Nextgrid wrote:
| Usage patterns? Fridge being opened means someone is
| home. That data point is meaningless in isolation, but
| can be valuable if you want to use it to confirm/deny
| other data points - let's say another data broker is
| trying to get an accurate ad targeting profile but only
| has breadcrumbs here and there such as IP addresses,
| user-agents that by themselves don't mean much, but they
| can use other data points (such as fridge activity data)
| to link your otherwise-anonymous IP-based profile if they
| see that the only times this IP lights up is when the
| fridge was also used recently.
|
| Whether that's currently done is up for debate - maybe
| there are other lower-hanging fruits that are easier to
| do, but if you've exhausted all your other options and
| still want even more accurate profiles, I don't see why
| you _wouldn 't_ do it.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| I went through a serious attempt to remove all of my
| resumes on the web. Paid a firm, whole nine yards.
|
| Several data brokers still have very, very old copies..
| and they still sell them.. and recruiters still buy
| them.. and still contact me.. and still get met with an
| email politely telling them off.
|
| But that years old shitty linkedin dataset still gets
| sold to thousands of people for thousands of dollars a
| year and nobody bats an eye. The recruiters are too
| stupid to spot the bad data and the brokers too lazy to
| care.
| [deleted]
| princekolt wrote:
| No one will hand you your rights for free on a silver plate.
| Protesting and fighting back is the only way any progress is
| made in society.
| somenameforme wrote:
| In my ever-cynical view, I imagine in most cases manufacturers
| don't, themselves, especially care about the data from their
| devices. I see various other motivations:
|
| 1) Price increases. It's "smart". Pay us more.
|
| 2) Planned obsolescence. You have numerous new points of
| failure in your product + make repairing vastly more difficult.
|
| 3) Monetize collected data by selling it to interested parties.
| The data quality, or lack thereof, is a secondary concern.
| goodpoint wrote:
| > In my ever-cynical view
|
| Nothing cynical there: you are simply correct. There's
| overwhelming evidence that companies profit from selling
| user's data, engage in planned obsolescence and deploy
| numerous tricks to disrupt the second hand market.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| > There's overwhelming evidence
|
| I mean, this has been going on for at least 97 years if you
| include light bulbs:
|
| "The cartel lowered operational costs and worked to
| standardize the life expectancy of light bulbs at 1,000
| hours (down from 2,500 hours), and raised prices without
| fear of competition, in what has been described as a
| "classic example of planned obsolescence". The cartel
| tested their bulbs and fined manufacturers for bulbs that
| lasted more than 1,000 hours."
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel
| coryrc wrote:
| It literally saved customers money to buy the bulbs with
| lower lifetime because they are so much more efficient.
| Shortly before incandescents were phased out, I saw
| markings on packaging like "this bulb uses $10.81 in
| electricity over its lifetime" on a 40 cent bulb.
|
| They could have standardized on a power efficiency
| metric, but there's an intrinsic inverse relationship of
| efficiency versus lifetime for tungsten filaments.
|
| Back in the day companies did not try to eat every tiny
| bit of consumer surplus, so this cartel was a win-win
| situation.
| goodpoint wrote:
| The cartel was never meant to benefit customers and
| that's why it was kept secret. Historical evidence is
| pretty clear on this.
| userbinator wrote:
| Now that we have LEDs, which were marketed to last
| "forever" when they were introduced, but clearly don't;
| and running LEDs at lower specific power actually helps
| efficiency, but they don't.
|
| Phoebus being about efficiency was merely a coincidence.
| flir wrote:
| Dubai Lamps might interest you. Video here:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klaJqofCsu4
| bradknowles wrote:
| Yeah, you really need some good doobies, man! ;)
| goodpoint wrote:
| At least this time the cartel is not completely secret.
| lordgrenville wrote:
| I seem to remember that this story is a distortion? Don't
| recall the details, but that Wikipedia article does say
| the British government looked into it and concluded there
| wasn't evidence that the ceiling wasn't justified in
| technical grounds.
| IshKebab wrote:
| I've worked in a big consumer electronics company and 2. is
| just a conspiracy theory. Nobody _wants_ their products to be
| unreliable or difficult to repair. They want them to be
| _cheap to manufacture_ and _unlikely to fail during the
| warranty period_. Everything else stems from that.
|
| Your other two points are broadly correct though. Also data
| collection is helpful for seeing how customers use products,
| which genuinely does influence development.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| If repairability isn't a design goal, it won't be easy to
| repair.
|
| Ease of assembly is often in opposition to ease of repair.
| Reliability engineering optimizes failure rates during
| warranty and extended warranty periods. Why would they
| optimize repairability? It not in their interest.
|
| The defective Apple MacBooks are great example of this
| effect. Politically powerful design guy prioritizes design
| over everything else. Keyboard technology is defective and
| un-repairable. Result: Billion of dollars of warranty
| claims.
|
| Was that a conspiracy? No. Just the result of poor
| priorities, resulting in a bad outcome.
| barbazoo wrote:
| > Also data collection is helpful for seeing how customers
| use products, which genuinely does influence development.
|
| "So they opened the fridge and 15 seconds later closed it
| again, they might have taken something out, interesting."
| IshKebab wrote:
| I can see you've never designed anything! I can think of
| plenty of things I'd want to monitor on a fridge if I was
| a fridge designer.
|
| What temperature do they set the fridge to? Do they ever
| change it? How often do they deice the freezer? Do they
| use the ice maker / filtered water thing / whatever? How
| often? How long do they leave the door open normally?
| What are the temperature / power consumption profiles
| over time?
|
| That's before we even get to any of the smart features (I
| have no clue what they are).
| Fiahil wrote:
| https://clickclickclick.click
| throwaway1777 wrote:
| The warranty period can be made shorter. It's like 1 year
| on many appliances now
| InCityDreams wrote:
| Two years in Europe. Not sure/ don't care about the uk,
| though.
| spacexsucks wrote:
| Yeah. Only caring for warranty period Is planned
| obsolescence
| alpaca128 wrote:
| > Nobody wants their products to be unreliable or difficult
| to repair.
|
| Hard to believe when a printer manufacturer moves a
| commonly failing part from cartridges to the printer
| itself, then makes it impossible to repair that specific
| part without taking apart the whole thing and buying a
| replacement part for 160 bucks.
|
| > Also data collection is helpful for seeing how customers
| use products, which genuinely does influence development.
|
| I'll start calling it helpful once it actually improves
| product quality and usability.
| bornfreddy wrote:
| They didn't say it improves the product though, just that
| it _influences development_. The incentives of producers
| are not aligned with consumers ' wishes.
| callmeal wrote:
| >I've worked in a big consumer electronics company and 2.
| is just a conspiracy theory. Nobody wants their products to
| be unreliable or difficult to repair.
|
| Really now?
|
| https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-great-lightbulb-conspiracy
|
| https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-story-behind-the-story-
| behind-...
| IshKebab wrote:
| That's literally the one time it actually happened.
| Please find a single other example.
| mjburgess wrote:
| Well calling it "planned" adds a conspiratorial element,
| maybe there's a better word.
|
| The effect comes from many sources. When the engineering
| science is new, tech tends to be way overbuilt because the
| creators don't know what tolerances are. There's also the
| ratio of product cost to disposable income of the users.
| And to their wish for devices over time.
|
| In any case, the natural tendency of a profit-optimizing
| system of competition is to throw away values (eg.,
| repairability) that consumers at-purchase dont value. In
| this case, no biz is going to spend extra to include long-
| life features _at a loss_ to competitors who don 't.
|
| The remedy here is regulation, which is the mechanism which
| sets a floor on competition: since consumers at-purchase
| are at an extreme informational disadvantage, the gov.
| should require all biz to build in long-life features
| _given consumers do want them, long after purchase_.
|
| It's not a conspiracy, more of a market failure. The market
| doesnt produce optimal outcomes in cases where these
| extreme information asymmetries are built in, ie., by the
| time the product is around for 10yr to be reivewed, it's
| retired. There isn't a way of getting that information to
| the consumer.
| mojzu wrote:
| Perhaps incentivised is the better word? Improving
| tolerances and repairability so that products last beyond
| the common 1-2 year warranty periods costs time and
| money, and potentially means that customers aren't buying
| newer versions of those products or paying for first
| party repairs. I'd imagine that many engineers who
| actually design/build the products would like to make
| these things more durable and repairable, but are more
| often then not told to cut costs to improve margins/work
| on new feature X or product Y, etc.
| sdoering wrote:
| I remember there was something similar once for web analytics.
| The extension would obfuscate stuff by changing values, esp.
| e-commerce values like price and quantity so that the data
| becomes quite tainted.
|
| Just can't remember what it was called.
| Sephr wrote:
| The comment you're that replying to has the answer to your
| question. It's https://adnauseam.io/
| sdoering wrote:
| I understood adnauseam as clicking ads, not fuzzing web
| analytics data on the site I am currently on.
|
| Should read their site in more detail probably.
| eternityforest wrote:
| I would hate to see smart stuff taken off the market.
|
| A DDoS could cause the company to drop support faster(Like they
| already always do), and hurt the people who can no longer use
| the features on their expensive device.
|
| Besides, if DDoSing got popular with average consumers it would
| never stop, and they'd go after everything that has any privacy
| risk(AirTag/Tile comes to mind), no matter how critical it is
| to some people's lives.
|
| Admittedly a bit of a slippery slope argument, but less so in
| an age where there is a significant minority that would love to
| undo _all_ tech from the last 70 years.
|
| Instead we could be fighting for laws requiring that that all
| smart devices use an open and app-capable OS, or that all
| features exposed via proprietary connection to their server
| also be exposed via local API.
| LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
| What did the people do, to whose lifes AirTags have become
| critical, before they were available?
| PaulKeeble wrote:
| Two ways.
|
| 1) Set up a pihole or ad guard or similar and block the
| requests the device makes. You can probably find someones list
| or it may already be in the default one.
|
| 2) Put all the IOT's devices into a virtual wifi lan that
| doesn't by default doesn't allow internet access. Then only add
| in the few places you want them to be able to get to. In
| general putting IOT devices on a network separate from your
| real computers is a good idea for isolation anyway since they
| are likely to have poor security.
| L_riel wrote:
| Assuming the device doesn't have its own modem and internet
| connection integrated.
| oAlbe wrote:
| And that the device is incapable of recognising the lack of
| Internet access and connect to your neighbour open network
| instead.
| hyperman1 wrote:
| Not necessary. When not connected for more than a month,
| a device gets declared insecure and stops its core
| function or gets annoying until you allow it on the
| network again. Downloading new firmware is only possible
| by uploading metrics, and provides all kinds of new
| 'experiences' of course.
|
| In 2 years, a standard fridge will start blinking its
| inside lights and show 'error' on the temperature display
| if you don't let it connect.
| bornfreddy wrote:
| Yup. That's my worry - I can block them now, but what do I
| do when all these devices have their own "WhisperNet"?
| myself248 wrote:
| So like Sidewalk...
| rjsw wrote:
| Get your own femtocell.
| foobiekr wrote:
| Amazon sidewalk and similar will be selling zero config and
| out-of-consumer-control access to devices with a few years.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Having to neuter devices is going to become more and more
| common...
| anon776 wrote:
| Pi-Hole with a good collection of block lists is a great
| option. My samsung TV and a few android devices are the top
| offenders on my pi-hole admin panel.
| user3939382 wrote:
| Some kind of legislative protection would be nice too. eg any
| mechanism that collects or transmits telemetry must be able to
| operate totally separate from any other feature of the device
| and have a hardware kill switch.
| VoidWhisperer wrote:
| It should be legally required for these products to allow for
| people to turn 'smart' features off if they want to.
| Unfortunately, it probably won't be any time soon.
| Doches wrote:
| I'd rather flip this solution on its head: why are our markets
| for consumer goods /so broken/ that there's no headroom for a
| startup making quality, 'not-smart' appliances to break in?
| Consumer home appliances feel like they ought to be a textbook
| case of innovator's dilemma, with incumbents moving up and to
| the right in complexity and opening up space at the bottom for
| new manufacturers.
|
| And yet...
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| What you need is a white goods equivalent of Behringer, mass-
| producing "reproduction" 1970s Tricity Countess cookers and
| Indesit L8 washing machines and such.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| - People expect appliances to live for years if not decades,
| and many are not willing to trust a new brand for a multi-
| hundred-dollar expense
|
| - Producing and especially shipping and storing huge and/or
| heavy appliances is expensive AF, which means you need _a
| lot_ of upfront capital for inventory and warehouses
|
| - Getting onto Amazon is easy, but almost no one buys a
| fridge on Amazon - which means you have to establish a
| relationship with brick-and-mortar retail, and that is
| difficult: the retailers expect free demonstration units for
| each location or subsidy for advertising, as well as have
| ridiculously long payment schedules (depending on whose
| rumors you listen to, some chains want up to 1 year of time
| from product delivery to payment due date!).
|
| Basically, it boils down to the question on how and where to
| get money to disrupt an industry that has enormous cash
| requirements, low margins and an extremely niche target
| demographic. Your best bet is a benevolent billionaire
| willing to put up cash for decades.
| RL_Quine wrote:
| The smart features of a TV subsidize its price. A "non smart"
| device manufacturer has to sell at a dramatically non
| competitive price because they aren't selling user data or
| flooding advertising into the content shown. Sitting on a
| shelf, who would buy a TV with less features for double or
| three times the price?
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| I think you mean something like $20 more, and that's likely
| overshooting.
|
| Some smart TVs can milk money from subscription
| partnerships, but on a per-tv-sold basis it's not really
| that much.
| Doches wrote:
| For TVs, absolutely, that's a hard value proposition to
| beat. But you can't tell me that there's anything like as
| much profit delta between 'dumb' and smart...refrigerators.
| RL_Quine wrote:
| There's a hot tub brand who include LTE radios in their
| hot tubs to ensure that they always have an analytics
| channel irrespective of what the user configures. Why on
| earth? It means they can target advertising for
| consumables and services. Same goes for fridges which
| need replacement filters, fresheners, whatever, you've
| just got to dupe the user into giving you internet
| connectivity, or accept the cost of putting a cellphone
| radio in your product.
| l33t2328 wrote:
| Which hot tub?
| Doches wrote:
| That is amazing and bananas in equal measure, and I
| seriously hope it's true (in a sort of black mirror-esque
| way) -- it's just the perfect parody.
|
| And the perfect example! If I was choosing between two
| otherwise-equivalent hot tubs I would /definitely/ pay
| more for one without the ability to call home. Are there
| enough people who would also be willing to pay more, and
| pay enough more to make up the difference in lost
| advertising revenue? I guess...not?
| petre wrote:
| you can still damage the LTE antenna or put aluminium
| tape on it.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| Not if the antenna is somewhere that's filled up with
| epoxy for waterproofing.
| dotancohen wrote:
| > There's a hot tub brand who include LTE radios in their
| hot tubs
|
| Is there any disclosure that the device includes such a
| radio?
| dolmen wrote:
| Mandatory registration to the FCC?
| RL_Quine wrote:
| No idea, I saw it on a list of "product success stories"
| for a IOT cellular provider.
| c_o_n_v_e_x wrote:
| I'm guessing you're referring to Particle?
| car_analogy wrote:
| We don't know, because manufacturers made sure that doesn't
| happen. There is no equivalent, premium-priced privacy-
| respecting TVs sold next to "smart" ones. And they
| _definitely_ don 't advertise the user-hostile "smart"
| features, such as telemetry and forced ads, as prominently
| as the price.
|
| What we do know is that even the least price-sensitive
| consumers, that buy the most high-end TVs, aren't given the
| option:
|
| _Buying a product knowing it has ads in it is one thing,
| but users on Reddit and elsewhere are understandably angry
| about ads suddenly being patched into their devices--
| especially in cases when these devices are multi-thousand-
| dollar 4K Sony televisions_ -
| https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/04/google-pilot-
| program...
| est31 wrote:
| The least price sensitive people are also the most
| valuable people to sell ads for.
| Kiro wrote:
| I've never seen any ads in my smart devices and I have a
| hard time seeing how the user data could be worth so much
| that dumb device startups can't even enter the market. Do
| you have any source with numbers on this?
|
| I mean, I can understand the value of user data from
| Facebook but a stove or a fridge? What exactly are they
| selling?
|
| Edit: realized now we're talking about TVs but still, is
| that data really worth that much?
| Schroedingersat wrote:
| If they also leave out the dsp, and settle on a standard
| form factor with no plastic clips and with standard mounts
| for all internal stuff. I'd buy in a heartbeat.
| hulitu wrote:
| To be honest that's what they want you to believe. Last
| time i opened a smart TV looked like the most expensive
| thing was the standing foot and the plastic frame. The rest
| was power supply (which was broken - planned - died just
| when warranty expired) and a cheap android computer. I
| think they cannot resist to the idea that if they have
| Android why not sell some ads.
| rerx wrote:
| Somehow I doubt the large OLED panel in my TV is cheaper
| than its little stand.
| kasabali wrote:
| Oh I really hate this meme because even folks at HN
| repeat it like a broken record though nobody even cared
| to back it with a real BOM analysis.
|
| Only source I've seen so far for this ridiculous claim is
| "an executive of Sony said so in an interview". Yeah, a
| really neutral source of information, indeed.
|
| 55" open cell panel costs less than $100 and this is _by
| far_ the single most expensive component in a TV.
|
| So a $300 Walmart special Roku TV might needed to be
| subsidized a little, but doing the same on a fancy LG,
| Samsung or Sony would be purely out of greed.
| dolmen wrote:
| Netflix / Disney pre-installed on the smart TV are
| probably the features that allow the manufacturer to
| reduce the price thanks to subsidize from those
| subscription vendors.
| alpaca128 wrote:
| > double or three times the price
|
| I'd like to see sources on that.
|
| Amazon's tablet is like $20 cheaper if you buy it with
| integrated ads. A TV will have a hard time showing so many
| ads through the day that it'll halve the price.
| dagw wrote:
| _I 'd like to see sources on that._
|
| I just checked a (Swedish) price comparison site and the
| cheapest 65" 4K TV currently available was literally less
| than half the price of the cheapest Not Smart TV.
|
| Also with Smart TVs I had a choice of over 200 different
| models, while with Not Smart TVs I had a choice of 2.
| silisili wrote:
| Probably solely costs. A handful of companies own all the
| appliance brands, able to create components for pennies and
| they sure aren't sharing them with you and I.
|
| Appliance companies seem to be barely making margins anymore,
| so it's not like they're robbing you blind, more that a
| startup would need to create a simple device that is also
| twice the price of everyone else.
| Doches wrote:
| Would you pay extra for not-smart appliances? Because I
| sure would -- and have, at every opportunity I get. It's
| frustrating that there's not a market for uncomplicated,
| well-built, totally-lacking-in-smart-features appliances.
| If I have to replace e.g. a dead microwave, I would pay
| considerably /more/ for one that won't call home or auto-
| install firmware updates or tweet at my wife when I re-heat
| a mug of tea.
|
| You'd hope that there's be enough of a delta in that "pay
| more", and enough folks who would do so, to make a market.
| Shame it seems like there isn't.
| silisili wrote:
| No I get it completely, I would. And probably a lot of
| readers here would. Though admittedly I'd wait to see if
| the brand existed in a year, so I could get parts. But
| the problem seems to keep coming up that people like us
| just don't represent enough market share for it to be
| worth everyone's time.
|
| See also: US made hand tools. Everyone seems to yearn for
| the old Craftsman days, but not enough people want to pay
| that premium. While Harbor Freight seems ever
| expanding...
| Doches wrote:
| Yep, hand power tools are another perfect case. We're
| just vigorously agreeing with one another now, but I
| would really like to see the economics behind e.g. smart
| washing machines. I mean, it's not like Samsung just
| likes violating their customers' privacy for the hell of
| it -- there must be (considerable?) profit in it
| somewhere. It's just distressing that there increasingly
| doesn't seem to be a market /at all/ for non-smart
| appliances.
|
| I'll probably never buy a television again, since it
| seems you can't buy a decent non-smart panel without
| crossing into the enterprise (and adding an order of
| magnitude in price). And I'm not alone! How is there not
| a single manufacturer making a single modern non-smart
| LCD TV? Hell, call it the "HNTV" and expect to sell no
| more than...20,000? At 200EUR in margin that's a 4mEUR
| product line, surely worth throwing off given that the
| R&D is just removing hardware from an existing model?
| silisili wrote:
| Probably the only way to succeed would be to find an OEM
| or ODM willing to build the thing, then do a Kickstarter
| like campaign to gauge interest.
|
| Doing it yourself would be way too risky.
|
| But be prepared for the big guys to absolutely bury you
| once you show any inkling of success.
|
| I think it's a great idea, but I can see why nobody has
| tried the space. I sure wouldn't.
| rapnie wrote:
| A company offering a range of dumb household devices with a
| modern design but the sturdy quality of many of the machinery
| from my granny's days? The stuff that lasts a lifetime. I
| would pay good money for that.
| dagw wrote:
| The core principal of the innovators dilemma is that as you
| move "up and to the right" prices increase leaving a space
| for cheaper competitors. I spoke to a person working at a
| small company doing a fancy piece of kitchen equipment about
| this once. According to him anyway doing an app was actually
| easier and cheaper to manufacture since A) it was less moving
| parts and less complexity and B) finding people who know how
| to program a really nice app is cheaper and easier than
| finding people who knew how to design nice physical controls
| with buttons and knobs.
| maccard wrote:
| That ship has sailed with TVs now but you can still buy high-
| end non-smart kitchen appliances from most manufacturers,
| Samsung included. Smart kitchen appliances are outrageously
| expensive (the Samsung smart fridge range is ~30% more
| expensive than their highest priced alternative based on a
| quick Google) so it's not like you're being forced to buy one
| of these.
| bushbaba wrote:
| There is, just on the ultra high end and ultra low end. The
| mid-range has decided to leverage 'smart' features to compete
| on cost or shift buyers over.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| The Innovator's Dilemma is _absolutely not_ about creating
| higher quality versions of products.
| skocznymroczny wrote:
| It's "so broken" from a perspective of a privacy advocate or
| a tech oriented user. For casual users of these devices, a TV
| that doesn't support Prime Video/Netflix/HBOGO out of the box
| is "broken".
| dotancohen wrote:
| > It should be legally required
|
| Do you really want that level of government control over
| everything? I think that this is something "the market" should
| fix. Or, a soldering iron.
| strogonoff wrote:
| Free market doesn't work well in presence of information
| asymmetry and behaviors exploiting it.
|
| Since we cannot fundamentally eliminate exploitative behavior
| just yet, seeing as the world is full of suffering and people
| grow up with all sorts of psychological trauma and cannot
| help trying to secure themselves at the expense of others,
| the biggest antagonist of the market that we _can_ tackle is
| information asymmetry.
|
| In some countries, you can bet that every mention of a
| regulation intended to tackle a specific instance of
| information asymmetry abuse (often enabled by advances in
| technology) will be accompanied by concerns about "government
| control over everything" and that "the market should fix it".
| Unfortunately, that agenda mostly helps the exploitative
| behavior.
|
| If we don't do our best to keep the market working by
| compensating for information asymmetry, command economy will
| eat it.
| dotancohen wrote:
| > we cannot fundamentally eliminate exploitative behavior
| just yet
|
| Under what conditions will we ever be able to fundamentally
| eliminate exploitative behavior? This really sounds like an
| argument against capitalism in general.
| strogonoff wrote:
| I don't think it's impossible. Ensuring prosperity,
| eliminating mental issues and insecurities (inherited via
| childhood trauma and spread by inflicting trauma upon
| peers) should go a long way. May or may not require a
| post-scarcity world though.
| paskozdilar wrote:
| > This really sounds like an argument against capitalism
| in general.
|
| Are you saying that exploitative behavior is exclusive to
| capitalism? If so, would you elaborate how do other
| economic systems avoid exploitative behavior - i.e. what
| makes capitalism so much worse?
| dotancohen wrote:
| I'm not an economist, I really know little about other
| economic systems. I'm certainly not advocating for any
| specific economic system, I just took note of your
| conclusion. Your advocacy for a controlled market
| demonstrates a far better understanding of the topic than
| I have.
| paskozdilar wrote:
| Note that I am not the person you originally replied to.
|
| My point is that exploitation is inherent property of a
| huge power difference. It doesn't matter if the system is
| capitalism, socialism, or whateverotherkindism.
|
| Reminds me of a quote from a very talented mathematician:
| Imagine the case of two neighbors, each of whom at the
| outset owns the same amount of land, but one of whom is
| more powerful than the other. The powerful one demands a
| piece of the other's land. The weak one refuses. The
| powerful one says, "OK, let's compromise. Give me half of
| what I asked." The weak one has little choice but to give
| in. Some time later the powerful neighbor demands another
| piece of land, again there is a compromise, and so forth.
| By forcing a long series of compromises on the weaker
| man, the powerful one eventually gets all of his land.
| dotancohen wrote:
| > My point is that exploitation is inherent property of a
| huge power difference.
|
| What power difference? I have the money, the refrigerator
| company wants that money. I have half a dozen
| refrigerator companies trying to convince me that their
| product is the one worth my money. What power does any
| single refrigerator company have over me?
| paskozdilar wrote:
| > What power does any single refrigerator company have
| over me?
|
| It doesn't have to be a _single company_ per se - all the
| companies could hold power over you at the same time.
|
| E.g. if most huge refrigerator companies agree
| (explicitly or implicitly) to all include "smart"
| features that violate the customers' privacy, then the
| refrigerator companies hold power over you - you can't
| buy a refrigerator without "smart" features, as there
| aren't any on the market. You can ask for a "dumb"
| refrigerator, but ultimately you aren't the one making
| the refrigerators, so you don't make the decisions.
| Perhaps some other company will join in, and try to fill
| in the niche of "dumb" refrigerators, but they will
| either not have the resources/connections of the already-
| established companies, or their efforts will be
| undermined by the already-established companies in order
| to keep their power, or they might even succeed but have
| their refrigerators so expensive that privacy-seeking
| people have to pay premium in order to get it.
| paskozdilar wrote:
| > Do you really want that level of government control over
| everything?
|
| Absolutely not. But I also don't want that level of company
| control over everything. I think "government punishing
| companies" is a much better alternative to "companies
| punishing people".
|
| > Or, a soldering iron.
|
| In this case, the wireless card could be just detached
| physically. But what happens when e.g. device requires
| network access to work, but also has some malicious feature?
| What if the malicious feature is baked in the hardware, e.g.
| DRM? Do we just pull out an electron microscope and a
| disassembler?
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| "that level" is mandating a toggle? Hell yes I want "that
| level" of control. A very narrow but important one.
| baq wrote:
| the market is smart (or dumb, depending on point of view). it
| won't price in externalities unless forced to. that's why we
| need regulations and enforcement in a free market environment
| - to make sure (raise probability) the price is fair to
| everyone, not just to manufacturers or just to consumers. it
| isn't possible to have a free market without regulation
| (anarcho-capitalists believe otherwise until the first time
| they get shafted.)
| dotancohen wrote:
| > price in externalities
|
| At what point should governments start pricing in
| exeternalities? Is the price of air pollution and global
| warming yet priced into the cost of gasoline?
| deepstack wrote:
| As consumers, we ought to demand that. I like IoT, however if
| this is how the manufacturers gonna play it, I would rather
| have old stove and fridges with no internet access. Let's vote
| with our money.
| DyslexicAtheist wrote:
| legislation is coming in Sept 2024 (RED directive) mandating a
| lot of security for IoT home appliance. If your device doesn't
| have (secure) OTA update, secure-boot, among other things it
| won't get CE certification. In Europe vendors are scrambling
| because the law is there but standards are still half-baked
| (ETSI/EN 303 645 etc). In the US the situation is the opposite:
| standards are solid but the law is still not clearly defined.
|
| There is a lot to be said about throwing whole classes of users
| under the bus (elderly, people with disabilities) when asking
| them to manage technology mostly because how these things are
| going to be implemented (e.g. the security vs usability
| dilemma).
| jeroenhd wrote:
| I'm a little annoyed at the requirement for secure boot on
| these platforms. As the device owner I want to get security
| updates, but I also want to be able to run my own software if
| I so choose. I don't think physical security is a problem
| that ready to be solved In legislation like this unless we're
| talking about a smart safe
|
| I welcome new legislation in this area but it seems to me
| that lobbyists are once again screwing over the general
| consumer by adding anti-features into these legislations.
| Luckily IOT-vendors are absolutely abysmal at protecting
| their devices so I doubt we'll see too many devices locked
| down that weren't already.
| DyslexicAtheist wrote:
| I agree on secureboot :(
|
| one thing:
|
| > Luckily IOT-vendors are absolutely abysmal at protecting
| their devices so I doubt we'll see too many devices locked
| down that weren't already.
|
| it is either compliance or no CE stamp (if a product does
| not meet safety requirements they have to remove
| connectivity or take it off the shelves). And either they
| are already scrambling because the cost of this has already
| sunk in, ... or they are in for a surprise pretty soon
| because _becoming compliant_ isn 't a one-off activity but
| means restructuring their entire processes (e.g. test
| automation to maintain that compliance)
| swiper_lux wrote:
| Can't you just block it at your router?
| [deleted]
| addingnumbers wrote:
| After I cut over to a new wifi router I left my old one
| partially configured with no internet connection and mirroring
| everything to one of the LAN ports that goes to an un-numbered
| (no IP address, no IP egress) port on my main server where I
| can maniacally sniff their futile unrequited traffic at my
| leisure.
|
| The idea is to some day make a per-gadget catalog of all the
| hostnames and addresses these things want to reach, but
| hopefully someone beat me to it already and you folks can let
| me know where to find it.
| askvictor wrote:
| Or don't enter your wifi credentials to start with?
| runnerup wrote:
| Might work on this model but more and more appliances refuse
| to work at all until they're connected to WiFi. Additionally,
| "Amazon Sidewalk" allows appliances to connect to your
| neighbors Wi-Fi automatically if your own isn't working for
| it.
| VoidWhisperer wrote:
| According to Samsung's site, assuming this is the same
| model of fridge (Family Hub Refrigerator?), it is
| technically possible to skip the WiFi setup, but some
| people are pointing out there are rumors that it will try
| to connect to open wifi to still phone home to samsung.
| iamphilrae wrote:
| Changing router means you have to re-block. Plus nothing better
| (more reassuring) than an actual air-gap from the internet.
| VoidWhisperer wrote:
| Below the main post:
|
| "since this got boosted if anyone happens to know about service
| manuals for appliances, lmk. i'm textin a buddy about this and
| now we just wanna kill it instead my backup plan (forever dhcp
| lease + block IP from pf.conf). even the manuals i can find
| online from samsung don't mention the smart features, it seems
| to be more of a "don't burn down your house idiot" thing "
|
| It seems their plan was to block it at a network level if they
| couldn't do this.
| numlock86 wrote:
| Why so much trouble to "disable" WiFi instead of simply not using
| it?
| dathinab wrote:
| Idk about this case,
|
| but products can be notorious in the ways they try to make you
| setup the wifi.
|
| Worse sometimes if you don't setup WiFi they will connect to
| unprotected networks if the find some and try to use them
| instead, opening them up to even more attack surface (or
| networks of wide spread hotspot providers in your country).
|
| I.e. you get annoyed and can't be sure if it doesn't connect to
| "something" if you don't go that far.
| adrianN wrote:
| 1W extra load costs about two Euros and a kilogram or four of
| CO2 per year.
| StreamBright wrote:
| Because of security. You do not know how exploitable the setup
| is. There were instances when these appliances connected to
| open Wifis and called home. Imagine same but attacker doing a
| drive by with open Wifi.
| VoidWhisperer wrote:
| If it will try to connect to any open wifi, I can definitely
| see why'd you want to disable the wifi at a hardware level,
| since at that either you let it connect to the internet in
| its own, insecure way, or use your secured wifi network - in
| both cases it'll phone home.
| nagonago wrote:
| What would a hacker possibly have to gain stealing data from
| smart fridges? Blackmail you with evidence that you don't buy
| free-range eggs?
| abraae wrote:
| They could work out when you're home or not to burglarize
| your house.
| VoidWhisperer wrote:
| All it takes is the fridge having one vulnerability that is
| exploitable by it connecting to the network and suddenly
| your fridge is part of a botnet..
| [deleted]
| kergonath wrote:
| It's another possible vector to infiltrate other devices on
| the network. Like smart bulbs, smart switches, security
| cameras, smart scales, and what have you. It is not
| difficult to imagine a scenario in which the fridge is the
| weakest link.
|
| A smart fridge can also be botnetisied like any of these.
| rejor121 wrote:
| You'd be amazed how the smallest amount of information can
| be used to invade your privacy.
|
| I don't know how fridges with WiFi works. But considering
| the rumors about connecting to open Wi-Fi connections
| automatically, let's start from there.
|
| 1) What if a so-called smart fridge keeps a list of items
| you have stored in your fridge? Maybe there are temperature
| settings for different zones. Maybe a default is listed as
| "eggs".
|
| Ok, now you know that, presumably, your target really likes
| eggs. So much that he Selects that temperature by default.
|
| Now you know what to look for to make potential physical
| contact with your target.
|
| 1) where is nearest store with eggs?
|
| 2) how often does he open and close the fridge? Maybe the
| data stored keeps that data. From there, you can guess how
| often your target may run out of eggs if he buys them a
| dozen at a time and opens the fridge every morning for
| breakfast.
|
| 3) you have three stored within cycling / driving range.
| You go to one of them to wait for your target.
|
| Next scenario:
|
| You connect to the fridges open Wi-Fi connection
| automatically. Oh, jackpot! This fridge has a camera in its
| screen! Now you have access to watch your target through
| the fridge camera.
|
| Next scenario:
|
| Maybe the fridge keeps a list of other Wi-Fi sourced it
| tried to access earlier. You can scan those and maybe try
| to guess passwords to break into those networks.
|
| I could go on.
| StreamBright wrote:
| Well there are few options. I am not a black hat and my
| imagination is not as vivid but I think if somebody makes
| my fridge turn off is bad enough. More sophisticated
| attackers might use it as a vector to get in to your home
| network. Not sure.
| blinded wrote:
| Just wait until they sign a deal with xfinity. Then what?
|
| better off disabling it.
| orbit7 wrote:
| Open source Linux based smart appliances would be good. I don't
| dislike the idea of smart appliances, but if its mine I want full
| control over what it does.
| dolmen wrote:
| However the manufcaturers prefer to avoid the risk of a user
| physically breaking the device from software and the
| manufacturer having to repair because of legal warantee.
| Mordisquitos wrote:
| Surely it would be trivial for the warranty to be void in
| those cases.
| cgrealy wrote:
| What percentage of consumers want that? I'm guessing the market
| is close to zero.
| lupire wrote:
| swaggboi@eatthrrich.club has a $1500+ fridge to store the the
| rich leftovers. An autocannibal?
| JoeDaDude wrote:
| Looks like he just unplugged the WiFi modem/module. But the
| software that looks for a WiFi connection is still thee and
| operating, which is no big deal on a fridge, but on a TV it
| really extends the startup time as the TV won't be fully on until
| its has searched for WiFi connections, even if it fails to find
| one.
| nagonago wrote:
| Couldn't you just never connect it to your router? Why bother
| disabling it? Security risk?
| lini wrote:
| If you don't some of your neighbors might. I installed an app
| to control my AC remotely and when i pressed the button to add
| all units in range it automatically added one more than there
| were in my apartment. I had complete control over the AC unit
| of some unsuspecting neighbour - I could see its status and
| control everything from my phone anywhere in the world. I
| suspect it's not that bad for fridges, but you still might be
| able to do some harm there as well.
| kolinko wrote:
| Could be worse - I live in an apartament complex and
| everyone's home control is on it's own network but with the
| same password. We cannot change it - even as apartament
| owners.
|
| So, if a neighbors party gets too loud you can go an
| aggressive way and just turn off their lights and lower
| curtains... or go passive aggressive way and bring their AC
| waay down so they begin to suffer but may not realise why :D
|
| The whole system runs on some sort of an outdated linux
| servers, so one day I plan to hack my own home's access
| network to get a root finally.
| gambiting wrote:
| 1) what was the issue with not connecting it to WiFi in the first
| place?
|
| 2) surely the fact that it has WiFi was known at purchase time?
| Despite what the internet would lead you to believe, there is
| still a lot of fridges without WiFi and "smart" features out
| there, why not buy one of those rather than mess with this?
|
| Edit: point 2 was addressed in the article, sorry I missed it
| ant6n wrote:
| > 2) ... there is still a lot of fridges without WiFi and
| "smart" features out there, ...
|
| for now. That's not true anymore for example for TVs.
| cgrealy wrote:
| Yeah, but Wi-Fi for a tv makes sense. It's borderline
| mandatory for the way people consume content these days.
|
| Wi-Fi for fridges is available, but no one seems that
| bothered by it.
| 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
| The appliances came with the property.
| BLKNSLVR wrote:
| Were I making the purchasing decision, wifi wouldn't factor in.
| If the fridge that turns out to be the best option happened to
| have wifi, then I'd trust myself to work out how to jail it,
| whether hardware "off"-ing it as per this guy, or blackholing
| it's connection, or just not connecting it at all (with the
| knowledge that some devices are rumoured to connect to any
| accessible open wifi).
| kergonath wrote:
| > with the knowledge that some devices are rumoured to
| connect to any accessible open wifi
|
| It is also quite possible that these come with cellular
| connectivity in the future as well...
| BLKNSLVR wrote:
| Is it legal to use a jammer on appliances that you've
| purchased?
|
| Just need to know where one can purchase said cellular
| jammer...
| kergonath wrote:
| YMMV, but around here jammers are illegal, full stop. I
| suppose one could put their appliances in a faraday cage
| or wrap them in tin foil...
| tpxl wrote:
| It's generally going to be easier to disable the signal
| circuits on the appliances than to jam them. Either wrap
| them in foil, disconnect the circuits, or wait for some
| brave soul to figure out what to break for it to stop
| working.
|
| That being said, jamming is relatively easy, just
| saturate the channel you want to jam with noise. That
| will also probably kill your cellular connection though.
| prmoustache wrote:
| 2) Author mentionned it came with the place.
| nixass wrote:
| >>2. surely the fact that it has WiFi was known at purchase
| time?
|
| It says right there in the article:
|
| these appliances came with the new place so i'll be stuck with
| these i imagine for some time
| blenderdt wrote:
| There are rumors it will try to connect to an open network when
| in range.
|
| Related HN question from years ago:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25275350
| speedgoose wrote:
| It's also official feature if you have an Amazon product, it
| will connect to an Amazon WiFi hotspot of another Amazon
| device: https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-
| Sidewalk/b?node=21328123011
|
| Thankfully it's only an US feature.
| paranoidrobot wrote:
| > what was the issue with not connecting it to WiFi in the
| first place?
|
| Like many other 'smart' appliances, it creates it's own AP so
| allow you to set it up. So anyone within range could attach it
| to their network, and then do whatever they like with it.
|
| > surely the fact that it has WiFi was known at purchase time?
|
| It came with the place they're living in. Someone else made
| that decision.
| kergonath wrote:
| > It came with the place they're living in. Someone else made
| that decision.
|
| It is irrelevant anyway. Buying something with the intent of
| modding it is not that unreasonable.
| moolcool wrote:
| > Like many other 'smart' appliances, it creates it's own AP
| so allow you to set it up. So anyone within range could
| attach it to their network, and then do whatever they like
| with it.
|
| Considering the security risk of smart devices generally
| working like this, I feel like the industry ought to
| standardize on something more sensible. Maybe some kind of
| NFC pairing?
| yrro wrote:
| It's called WPS. God knows why manufacturers prefer to do
| something as iduotic as crearing their own WiFi access
| point rather than using it!
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| WPS is severely broken and insecure. And the QR/NFC thing
| they added to replace it will require quite new devices.
| yrro wrote:
| WPS PIN method is severely broken and insecure,
| absolutely typical of most stuff put out by the Wi-Fi
| Alliance. As far as I know, WPS push button method is
| fine.
|
| I haven't ever needed or wanted to try to use the NFC
| method, I would disable it on any equipment I installed
| until I had a need for it. And even then I would do some
| research to see how badly the Wi-Fi Alliance fucked it up
| before making a judgement about whether I would feel
| comfortable enabling it.
| Crosseye_Jack wrote:
| Depending on the router manufacturer you may not be able
| to disable WPS pin and keep WPS push button (this is the
| case of the router that was supplied by my ISP as it
| comes with a rather dumbed down UI, not sure if I could
| disable it via editing a settings backup file and
| applying that back to the router as I use my own
| equipment, but most consumers will just use the router
| issued to them from their ISP). WPS enter pin has a max
| number of possibilities of 11k pins (it checks the pin in
| 2 half's and the last digit is a check digit, so 10k
| possibilities for the first half and 999 possibilities
| for the 2nd half), and some routers don't rate limit the
| connection requests.
|
| Some router manufacturers fixed the issue by removing WPS
| pin, others "fixed" it by rate limiting WPS pin
| connection attempts, but that will just delay the attack.
|
| So we are left with WPS Push button (if that's available
| because as stated above, consumer routers may only allow
| disabling WPS completely rather than just disable WPS
| pin). But thats a bit of a pain for items like Shellys
| that are designed to be put behind fixtures.
|
| But yeah, in the case of a fridge and most other consumer
| grade equipment putting a push button somewhere for WPS
| Push Button should be easy to factor in.
| [deleted]
| yrro wrote:
| Additional: it seems the Wi-Fi Easy Connect is replacing
| WPS.
|
| https://www.wi-fi.org/discover-wi-fi/wi-fi-easy-connect
|
| By the same geniuses that brought you WEP, WPA (TKIP) and
| WPS PIN... now we finally have QR codes and NFC mixed in.
|
| I'll be turning this off so I can avoid the inevitable
| security flaws.
| gambiting wrote:
| Is the AP active literally all the time until you set it up?
| Usually in these devices it only activates once you select an
| option in the menu, or shortly after first start - but yeah,
| if it's on 24/7 until configured, then I agree that's a
| problem.
| paranoidrobot wrote:
| I don't know, I don't have the device.
|
| I do have a Samsung TV, and no matter what I do, I can't
| turn off the Wifi/Bluetooth radios in it - and several of
| my neighbours keep trying to connect to it.
|
| The Google Chromecasts continually broadcast their AP when
| not fully set up.
|
| A neighbour has a bluetooth/wifi speaker that pushed some
| kind of "Do you want to set up your X brand speaker now?"
| prompt to my phone.
|
| There's a few other smart devices near me that are also
| broadcasting open APs that never seem to go away.
| lqet wrote:
| This is basically why I paid 100 EUR to have the 23 years old
| cheap Whirlpool stove that came with our apartment fixed. It has
| 4 plates and 4 turning knobs, and when I turn one of them, the
| corresponding plate gets hot.
|
| Simplicity lasts longer.
| paskozdilar wrote:
| > It has 4 plates and 4 turning knobs, and when I turn one of
| them, the corresponding plate gets hot.
|
| The smartest stove of them all - does one thing and does it
| well.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| Opposite is true for single use kitchen gadgets:
| https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/12/alton-brown-is-
| righ...
| jimmaswell wrote:
| > Instead of tablespoons and teaspoons, it has: a dash, a
| pinch, a smidgen, and a drop.
|
| I wish recipes would stop using these vague terms. Just
| give me the exact number of grams or whatever and I'll
| gladly measure it on my food scale.
| dendriti wrote:
| Single-use gadgets can be blessings for the disabled and
| differently abled. The author of this article is sneering
| at the disabled for having different tool needs than
| herself.
|
| My 80-something grandmother uses a garlic press and several
| sizes of vegetable holders for slicing veggies. I guess
| she's just so uncool.
| mcv wrote:
| I'd say single-use kitchen items are worth it if you use
| them every week. If you use them only once a year and the
| function can also be performed by something else, it's
| just clutter.
|
| We've got several knives and several pans, because
| different versions of the same thing are useful for
| slightly different purposes. We've got separate pans for
| pancakes and that works very well for us, because they're
| lighter and you can actually flip them.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| Most of these single use things are a product of
| Teleshopping and other terrible marketing schemes.
| sschueller wrote:
| Sadly with a fridge or a washing machine the efficiency is
| quite different. Buying a 20+ old washing machine will cost you
| a lot in electricity and wasted water.
| tomp wrote:
| It's interesting how indoctrinated we've become to think of
| "energy and water" as _waste_ instead of as a feature of an
| advanced, high-technology high-energy civilisation.
|
| If we had good sources of energy (nuclear, or
| solar+batteries) we wouldn't even need to worry about that.
| Water as well, water simply cannot get "wasted", you just
| need to clean it, which requires energy.
|
| The fact is, these "modern" "green" appliances are simply
| worse, sure they use less energy but waste much more time
| (because colder water -> longer wash cycle). You can get more
| (useful) energy, but you can never get more time.
| petters wrote:
| But it will finish much faster! Finding a brand new but 20
| years old dishwasher or washing machine would be awesome, at
| least in the EU.
|
| In Sweden, almost all of my electrical bill is heating anyway
| and water is practically free.
|
| My dishwasher's default program requires 4--5 hours. In the
| 90s, this was <1h I think?
| Kiro wrote:
| It takes longer because of environmental reasons and just
| because water is cheap doesn't mean we should waste it. We
| currently have a huge water shortage in Sweden.
|
| https://www.sgu.se/grundvatten/grundvattennivaer/aktuella-
| gr...
| rndgermandude wrote:
| The average dishwasher uses about the amount of water
| you'd use for 1-2 minutes of shower time. Newer models
| use around 9 liters per cycle, older ones and non-eco
| modes often 15 liters, and really old ones often 25
| liters. A typical shower outputs 5-10 liters per minute.
|
| The water savings with eco-programs compared to "normal"
| programs is in the range of 10 seconds to 1 minute worth
| of shower time, if I remember correctly. If you want to
| conserve water use, there are a lot better ways to do so
| than running a dishwasher in eco mode. (Washing dishes by
| hand uses more water on average than even an old
| dishwasher).
|
| Then, the terminology of "waste" is a bit problematic I
| think. The dishwater will usually output the spent water
| into some kind of sewer system in most places, and at
| some point this water usually gets cleaned and put back
| into circulation pretty much straight away. If not, it
| usually reaches nature again eventually. It's not like it
| became so toxic it needs to be stored safely for
| millennia.
|
| That doesn't mean we shouldn't be mindful, of course,
| especially when there are current (regional) shortages.
|
| Energy consumption (mainly to heat water) is a different
| matter. Energy consumption is the real environmental
| cost, not water consumption, as water is basically
| renewable, but energy is often produced from non-
| renewable sources and has secondary effects such as
| carbon emissions, which in turn effect climate change and
| in turn regional water availability. But even then again,
| reducing shower time by a minute, or water temperature,
| will have a greater impact on energy consumption than
| running a dishwasher in eco mode (on average).
| jeltz wrote:
| You are probably looking at the wrong map. There is
| currently a shortage of water for small wells in parts of
| Sweden. On the other hand there is more water than usual
| for municipal water in most of Sweden. Plus some places
| like Stockholm use lake water which is always plentiful.
| This is bad news for people with their own wells but go
| for people who pay for their water.
| greenpresident wrote:
| One reason is that it compensates lower temperature with
| longer wash time and uses airflow instead of heating to
| dry. Both are measures to reduce the environmental impact.
|
| The same is true for energy efficient washing machines by
| the way, they often do not reach the temperature a program
| states and compensate with longer washing times. This may
| be problematic for hygienic reasons at times but has a
| noticeable impact on energy use.
| [deleted]
| josephg wrote:
| Whoa! For comparison, my ~2010 dishwasher here in Australia
| still only takes 45 minutes to wash a load of dishes.
| danielbln wrote:
| Modern dishwashers can run anywhere from 15 minutes to 4
| hours, depending on the program chosen. I like choice,
| personally.
| danielbln wrote:
| I'm pretty sure your dishwasher has a fast program, I know
| mine does. Default is 3.5h, the fast program will only take
| 90 minutes, but of course use a fair amount more
| electricity since it has to heat the water to a higher
| temperature.
| NonNefarious wrote:
| Which raises the question of whether using hot water from
| the water heater (at least as a starting point) would
| provide a net savings. It's not as if the dishwasher
| hoards very much water for a load.
| maccard wrote:
| _maybe_ but it's not a guarantee. You still need a
| heating element in the dishwasher as there's no guarantee
| that the hot water is actually at the correct
| temperature. If the supply is a hot water tank, the tank
| might not be full, and in an on demand system you might
| have cold water in the pipes.
|
| > It's not as if the dishwasher hoards very much water
| for a load.
|
| Apologies if I misread this but dishwashers absolutely
| _do_ hoard and reuse water. My dishwasher claims to use
| about 12l of water for a full wash, which really isn't
| much at all.
| andylynch wrote:
| It's worth checking the manual - my IKEA dishwasher's
| fast program uses less energy and water, and 1/5 of the
| time (but is only good for lighter loads).
| rubenbe wrote:
| I stopped using the default "eco" program and switched to
| the faster "auto" program on my dishwasher since watching
| this video on how these programs actually work:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04
|
| TLDwatch: eco programs use only one batch of water, others
| use two and that results in cleaner dishes with the added
| benefit of a faster program.
| morsch wrote:
| That's going to depend on your dishwasher. Our dishwasher
| does a prewash even in eco mode. But the water won't get
| as hot (to save power) and it takes longer. On the other
| hand, the 30 minute mode only does the one main wash.
| Check your manual.
| llarsson wrote:
| I am secretly convinced they have "eco" programs just to
| get the A+++ rating on energy efficiency, but that you're
| not really meant to use those modes.
| ars wrote:
| That's not a secret, that's exactly why they do it.
|
| I feel like I read that in the manual that comes with my
| dishwasher. It was worded a bit differently, but it
| essentially said to use auto mode to get cleaner dishes,
| not eco which saves money but doesn't clean as well.
| frenchman99 wrote:
| Given how much water is needed to extract metals from the
| ground to create new appliances, the total amount of wasted
| water is subject to debate. It may be better overall to just
| keep using the old thing till it breaks.
| jacquesm wrote:
| It might even be worth fixing it, depending on the build
| quality and the actual consumption. Use a kill-a-watt or
| something similar to figure out what the device actually
| costs. Be prepared for surprises, both in the positive
| _and_ the negative direction! Do this _before_ something
| breaks.
| bayindirh wrote:
| Replaced a 20+ year GE 18" fridge due to its age. Its
| insulation was gone, compressor has lost a lot of power and
| was noisy.
|
| Our new Samsung has more space, less noise, way less heat
| generation and power consumption, and has no additional
| bells and whistles.
|
| Like or not, appliances age, and their performance drops.
|
| Same with dishwashers. With the looming water crisis ahead,
| every drop of savings is a plus.
|
| Arcelik/Beko group uses 1000LT fresh water _per year_. The
| rest is recycled in the plant. This is less than monthly
| consumption of a single household.
| mcv wrote:
| > Arcelik/Beko group uses 1000LT fresh water per year.
| The rest is recycled in the plant. This is less than
| monthly consumption of a single household.
|
| That is far less than I expected. But does it account for
| the water use in their supply chain? I think that should
| also be counted.
|
| That said, fridges and washing machines use enormous
| amounts of power and water, so savings there count for a
| lot. Far more than in many other household appliances.
| cik wrote:
| > Same with dishwashers. With the looming water crisis
| ahead, every drop of savings is a plus.
|
| There's a lot to be said with focusing on the right
| outcomes. We should do everything we can to reduce
| unnecessary waste and inputs. But, we also need to
| embrace water reclamation, water recycling. We currently
| reclaim ~86% of the water in my country. It's not great -
| but it's a good place to start.
| rytis wrote:
| > With the looming water crisis ahead, every drop of
| savings is a plus.
|
| Agreed.
|
| What's worrying though is the amount of water wasted in
| the delivery network. Really annoying when people trying
| to save a litre here or there and then millions are just
| going straight in to the ground.
| https://www.thameswater.co.uk/about-
| us/performance/leakage-p...
|
| > Every day we supply 2.6 billion litres of water, but
| not all of that gets to our customers. At the moment, we
| leak almost 24% of the water we supply.
| thorin wrote:
| When I was working on the grid a few years ago we got all
| the data on leakage to plow through and it was greater
| than 50% at that point (UK)!
| egeozcan wrote:
| If you speak German and want to see an example for
| wasting a lot of water so casually:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bykcfJgye2M
|
| The gist of the story is, because of the unmaintained
| leaky pipes of a decorative water installation, the city
| of Marburg wasted 20 million liters per year. A comedy
| show on state television is making fun of them.
| lqet wrote:
| Buying a new washing machine / dishwasher requires delicate
| skills - there are basically two things that drive the price
| down: simplicity, and low quality. You have to look for
| simple and well-build machines, and this usually means days
| of comparing prices and reviews. It also requires instinct.
| To make matters worse, over-engineered "smart" machines often
| have very good reviews because they offer a reasonable
| experience for the first few years, and most people are
| blinded by "cool" smart features.
|
| A general rule of thumb: avoid machines with a large display.
| agilob wrote:
| I bought a new washing machine from Sharp that was supposed
| to be eco-friendly, with microplastic filters, low energy
| usage, quick drying... whatnot. Most of my clothes are
| damaged from too wide holes in the tub. During spinning
| stage wet fabric get pulled into the tiny holes it breaks.
| Took us months to understand how our clothes get damaged. h
| ttps://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/images/articles/holes%20in%20
| ...
| jl6 wrote:
| How do you hope to solve this problem in general? It
| applies to every product with an opaque supply chain, which
| is pretty much every product.
|
| The only reviews that matter are the long-term ones, which
| are rare, and by the time a long time has passed, the
| original model is no longer made (or worse, a cheaper
| process is used to make something under the same name).
|
| The only approach I can see is to trust in a brand. But
| companies making commodified products like household
| appliances seem happy to have burned all their brand good
| will in exchange for short term profits, meaning I no
| longer trust any of them.
| shaky-carrousel wrote:
| Well, you can buy industrial appliances. They are more
| expensive, because they are sturdier and not subsidized
| by ads and data harvesting. But they are not "smart", and
| will last for a long long time.
| scrlk wrote:
| >You have to look for simple and well-build machines
|
| I ended up buying an entry level 8 kg Miele - just washes
| with no smart features & extremely well built. FYI: the 7
| kg entry level models now come with a plastic wash tub, you
| need to buy the 8 kg model for the traditional metal wash
| tub.
| Schroedingersat wrote:
| If you use small scale solar+wind and surplus grey water
| those are moot.
|
| The comparison is the water and energy embodied in the solar
| panel/turbine/inverter.
|
| If you live in a desert, water is relevant
| pmoriarty wrote:
| _" If you use small scale solar+wind and surplus grey water
| those are moot."_
|
| You wash your clothes in grey water?
| abraae wrote:
| Or tank (rain) water.
|
| Living on tank, you have free water unless you run out,
| when it is hideously expensive to truck it in.
|
| But as long as you have your consumption under control, you
| are your own water company and you may choose not to bother
| with appliances that focus on water efficiency.
| Ansil849 wrote:
| > Buying a 20+ old washing machine will cost you a lot in
| electricity and wasted water.
|
| Does the cost of the electricity and water an old machine
| uses equal or exceed the cost of the electricity and water
| involved in having to make a brand new appliance instead of
| using an already-made one?
| mcv wrote:
| At some point, yes. Washing machines use a lot of power and
| water, and any savings on those will eventually earn
| themselves back.
|
| Where exactly that point is, I don't know. I'm generally in
| favour of repairing old devices, but from what I
| understand, washing machines have a limited lifespan, and a
| lot has been improved about their efficiency in the past 20
| years.
| [deleted]
| dotancohen wrote:
| How feasible is it to buy a new refrigerator, and connect the
| nice efficient hardware to a thermostat and motor relay from
| an old fridge model? Those components are available
| inexpensively from repair shops.
| ziftface wrote:
| Maybe even an open source washer with available parts that
| runs on an Arduino or similar
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| > will cost you a lot in electricity and wasted water.
|
| <laughs in Scottish>
| walrus01 wrote:
| When I was maybe 20 years old and naive as hell, I thought it
| was funny that the older neighbors were really enthusiastic
| about their older fully analog, non-computerized Toyota Land
| Cruiser. They did all their own repairs on it. Now I
| understand.
| kebman wrote:
| The place I rent has a fancy button microwave installed. It's
| built-in and all the knobs makes it look really cool and
| scientific. I never use it though, because I brought my own
| Samsung microwave. It's got two knobs. One for the amount of
| time you need to fry things, and one for the power you wanna
| fry it on.
|
| That's it. That's literally all you need.
|
| The most difficult thing about it, is that it doesn't have a
| start button. It just starts automatically a second after
| you've set the timer.
|
| This small "smart" feature is actually a problem for visitors
| who doesn't know the machine, because they'll try to jam in the
| two knobs in order to "start" the thing. But otherwise I love
| it, and I use it all the time over the fancy schmansy pre-
| installed one. Because when I use the fancy one, I'm afraid
| that if I push the wrong button I'll start a nuclear war...
| bbarn wrote:
| Yeah, I've got an old school turn to start timer style
| microwave. One dial for wattage, and a mechanical dial for
| the timer. It's also tiny. Why are microwaves so big now?
| What are people cooking in a half cubic meter of microwave
| space? It's for melting butter and warming up leftovers.
| dagw wrote:
| Every microwave I've owned has also had a convection and
| grill/crisp function making them far more versitle than a
| simple microwave oven. That is probably what you are
| looking at.
| jl6 wrote:
| I'm having a similar debate about a diesel car. A battery-
| electric replacement would have lower environmental opex but at
| a huge environmental capex compared to just keeping my already-
| manufactured diesel.
| arghwhat wrote:
| That argument only holds if you stop driving your diesel
| altogether, as otherwise it's environmental cost will keep
| growing with no bounds while an acquired battery-electric
| would be busy amortizing it's one-time(-ish) cost.
|
| What OP said was about repairing stuff to avoid _smart_
| appliances. From an environmental perspective using old stuff
| is often much worse than getting new (fridge, car, ...).
| jl6 wrote:
| It's not an easy calculation though. The environmental cost
| of manufacturing the vehicle really is very high. The total
| environmental cost of ownership depends on how much you
| drive it. For some level of use, it will be better for the
| environment to keep an old diesel than to build a new
| electric.
| arghwhat wrote:
| The problem is that polluting a little over many years
| end up being a hell of a lot.
|
| EPA has some US-specific numbers
| (https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-
| myths#Myt...), which indicate that manufacturing remains
| a tiny part of the lifecycle of the car.
| abrugsch wrote:
| The solution to this one is the one I am planning. Remove
| the terribly polluting diesel engine and replace the heavy
| engine/clutch (dual mass flywheel in this case) and fuel
| system and replace with only a nominally heavier BEV
| system. what you gain from the engine and fuel tank (if you
| assume a full 60 litre tank) from a majorly lighter
| electric motor, you then lose on the weight of the
| batteries. With open source modules like the open-inverter
| project, you can have the benefit of keeping control of
| your vehicle and it not becoming an iPad on wheels while
| also prolonging of the useful life and keeping most of the
| invested production environmental costs. My example vehicle
| is nearing 20 years old (it's a late 2003 model) and it
| still drives great and only generally needs typical
| consumable/wear and tear items to get through annual
| inspections. It's generally powertrain elements that are
| starting to be of concern, but an electric conversion would
| simplify that no end, and actually bring more of the
| maintenance into my own personal knowledge domain (Power
| Electrics, Electronics and software/firmware) and by re-
| using salvaged EV powertrains, not actually having a
| further impact on the environmental CAPEX. Granted the DIY-
| EV route isn't for everyone but it definitely is for some
| people
| theodric wrote:
| This is only true if the power to run the electric car is
| environmentally less damaging than the diesel's emissions.
| With Germany's obsession with using diesel vehicles to mine
| brown coal to burn for power, I'm not convinced it is.
| [deleted]
| abrugsch wrote:
| I think this is going to be very country specific. The UK
| for example has barely used any coal (relatively) for the
| main grid with a considerable amount of coal-free days in
| the past couple of years. (currently coal provides 0.0%
| of the UK's fossil fuel electricity production and nearly
| 14% is renewable[0] though it was up to nearly 3% in
| February[1]) So while there is still a majority of the
| electricity coming from fossil sources (namely gas) it is
| on the decline and I'd certainly posit that a somewhat
| modern power station can generate electricity more
| efficiently than a car's diesel engine can... (happy to
| be proven wrong on this as I can't find any direct
| studies)
|
| [0]https://grid.iamkate.com/
|
| [1]https://www.nationalgrideso.com/electricity-
| explained/electr...
| rswail wrote:
| Inefficient though compared to induction isn't it?
| ungamedplayer wrote:
| Careful, or you'll be told that you should start thinking about
| 'fleet logic'.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31008275#31009009
|
| "" Better oven ergonomics leads to less cooking fatigue, which
| leads to less accidents and therefore less downtime. Sometimes
| it actually pays off to have a higher maintenance workload,
| especially since most of it is planned downtime, or features
| that don't have fixed urgently. And sometimes this idea of
| radical simplicity only shifts maintenance workload from one
| component to another. One example that gets a lot of pushback
| in US cooking is gas connections. ""
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Current IH stoves aren't much more complicated nor need your
| wi-fi password, if that was your point.
|
| The only significant addition I see in somewhat recent models
| is auto-turning off, and I'm pretty sure it will help save the
| house from burning down at some point, so I'm all for it.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > The only significant addition I see in somewhat recent
| models is auto-turning off, and I'm pretty sure it will help
| save the house from burning down at some point, so I'm all
| for it.
|
| Many recent stoves (induction or regular) have figured that,
| when interacting with them, no one will have wet hands nor
| need to adjust them repeatedly, they could go ahead and save
| a few pennies by using shared tactile controls.
|
| My stove need me to press a button corresponding to the plate
| I want to change, then press a common +/- button to turn it
| up or down. If my finger is wet, it will have a hard time
| registering and reach a timeout, whereupon I have to again
| select the plate. This is hands down the worst UX for an
| appliance I've had in my life.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| The worst UX I experienced was the gas stove at an
| appartment where you'd turn the knob all the way to get
| some sparks, while it blasts gas from the stove, to then
| turn it down to the level you want.
|
| The fun part was when you try to light it up but for
| whatever reasons it doesn't catch, so you're filling the
| room with propane and the second it might actually light up
| you're toast. Then if you turned it down too much it would
| die out, but you'd have to look below the pan to realize
| there's no flame anymore.
|
| Oh, and the toxicity of course.
|
| My IH plate also has common + and - buttons, but compared
| to the above I'm pretty happy with it. It also has a timer,
| and I'm ok giving up having 4 knobs for buttons that
| actually work and can be cleaned in one swoop, and having a
| single place where I can see the status of all the heating
| elements.
| walrus01 wrote:
| https://twitter.com/internetofshit?lang=en
| teruakohatu wrote:
| I like the sentiment but in New Zealand you would have paid 250
| EUR to get it fixed.
|
| We get charged ridiculous amounts for repairs. The repair
| industry has sort of decided that there should be a high
| minimum regardless of the problem.
| gjadi wrote:
| Maybe the issue isn't that repairing costs a lot, but rather
| than replacing it too cheap.
| unhammer wrote:
| Both my tumble dryer and dish washer have long outlasted
| their warranties thanks to Youtube tutorials (and one new
| part I had to order online).
| [deleted]
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