[HN Gopher] GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the ...
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GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor
Author : rdpintqogeogsaa
Score : 445 points
Date : 2022-05-27 08:55 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (cloudsek.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (cloudsek.com)
| longtimegoogler wrote:
| Robin hood.
| calebm wrote:
| Yes, this is obviously what it should have been called.
| jhgb wrote:
| That would _also_ be stealing a product name from the rich
| (Robinhood Markets) and giving it to the poor.
| mlindner wrote:
| This thing was written by someone who doesn't live in a developed
| country... There's no way to do those actions in a developed
| country. Does this person think that just random children are
| available to be given food to?
| NoGravitas wrote:
| At my youngest child's elementary school, I could pick random
| kids to give food to and have an 80% chance of them being
| disadvantaged and/or food insecure. The only tricky part would
| be contacting their parents to get permission and/or get the
| parents to come along, and that would be manageable.
|
| Arguably I don't live in a developed country, but it's a US
| state...
| mlindner wrote:
| As a fellow parent of children in your school that's possible
| for you yes in your specific situation, but it's not possible
| for most people. However even then I doubt you could grab a
| bunch of the children and take them out for food without
| negotiating with their parents first.
| nemo44x wrote:
| Seriously. If I went up to a group of kids and offered to take
| them to pizza hut I think I'd probably be arrested.
| Aleksdev wrote:
| Yeah, that's going to be a hard one to explain...
| cuteboy19 wrote:
| The English is non idiomatic. Mistakes make it seem middle
| eastern/central asian
| topaz0 wrote:
| The article claims the writers are Indian.
| cuteboy19 wrote:
| Strange. We never write "in Facebook". It's always "on
| Facebook" in most Indian languages. Though it's possible it
| was just a mistake.
| notsureaboutpg wrote:
| brbrodude wrote:
| Do you mean US?
| mlindner wrote:
| I don't understand your question. This doesn't work in the US
| either.
| iepathos wrote:
| People generally accept free stuff. Kids aren't some exception
| to this. You can accomplish this in any developed country with
| minor effort imo. Have any kids even distantly in your family?
| Kids know other kids so ask them to invite friends. "less
| fortunate" is a very broad descriptor for the children you need
| to feed, especially if you're fortunate.
| seoaeu wrote:
| Depending on the context you could probably give away pizzas
| pretty easily/innocently. Walking up to some children you do
| not know and offering to take them to a secondary location in
| return for free food... would come across very differently
| chasd00 wrote:
| > Walking up to some children you do not know and offering
| to take them to a secondary location
|
| heh yeah and some kids are very well trained to defend
| themselves. An offer like that to a larger than average
| pre-teen or teen may result in way more than you bargained
| for. If they see you as a threat and the flight/fight coin
| toss lands on fight, well, you're in for a ride.
| iepathos wrote:
| Hey want to go get some free food at this public and safe
| place you've been before with all your friends for backup?
| Checks out ok.
| barneygale wrote:
| Welcome to HN, where suburban America is the only developed
| country.
| mlindner wrote:
| This is true in any developed country.
| guerrilla wrote:
| I think your comment says a lot more about you and your
| knowledge of the world than them.
| dark-star wrote:
| exactly. People who need money at the hospital to get treated?
| Oviously targeted at Americans and other 3rd world countries
| mlindner wrote:
| It doesn't work for America lol... I'm in America.
| decebalus1 wrote:
| I don't understand your point. Do you think poverty is
| something far away in 3rd world countries only? Your point is
| probably moot in countries with strong social welfare systems,
| but the USA for example has 16% of its children living in
| poverty. I live in a VERY well-off area in the USA, yet one of
| the local food banks I'm somewhat connected is frequented by a
| lot of families with children. Non-perishable food + kids
| clothing + school supplies are one of the most sought-after
| donation items.
| [deleted]
| alfiedotwtf wrote:
| "I want peace on earth and Good Will toward man"
|
| -- Whistler
| browningstreet wrote:
| I've wanted to do a micropayment/paywall system where all the
| money went to select non-profit options.. paywalls, but not for
| the host. Paywalls for the world (hunger, climate, etc). Could
| possibly even have a crypto funnel.
| kosyblysk666 wrote:
| everyone so fucking noble these days...even a hacker is mr.right
|
| lololol
| WaxedChewbacca wrote:
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| I was thinking it's somehow related to Goodwill Stores, the brand
| TameAntelope wrote:
| Is the use of ngrok here a common pattern? First I've seen ngrok
| used this way, but I don't super follow methodologies/tactics.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| Has anyone actually completed the three demands and gotten their
| data back? As the requests are so bizarre and I'm so cynical it
| seems more likely they just want you to do silly things after
| destroying your data.
| kleene_op wrote:
| If word gets out that fullfilling those requests does not get
| your data back, no one would do it after the first attempt.
|
| For a no profit hack, honoring the promises would lead to
| funnier/more interesting situations.
| daniel-cussen wrote:
| Wouldn't an anti-ransomware group then hack some people, take
| their money, but not return the data, thereby undermining
| their real enemy, the ransomware groups?
| dqpb wrote:
| Isn't this more-or-less how Chinas social credit score works?
| [deleted]
| notum wrote:
| Would helping them with their grammar count as an activity point?
| netsharc wrote:
| Hah, Black Mirror-esque.
|
| But well, hopefully it has a IP filter to not hit countries with
| universal healthcare. /s
|
| And asking stranger kids "Hey kids, want some KFC?"... that
| should go well. "The hacker 4chan made me do it!"
| can16358p wrote:
| Black Mirror meets Mr. Robot.
|
| An interesting reality nevertheless.
| larodi wrote:
| or script kiddie meets open-source? or the dark side of open-
| source perhaps?
|
| Mr.Robot is incredible show, Sam Esmail, Rami Malek and
| Christian Slater potentially created the top series of the
| decade, but this is not the reality.
| can16358p wrote:
| Agreed with Mr. Robot part 100%.
|
| About whoever is behind this ransomware, of course this is
| nothing "fsociety-level" though the general intentions
| (hacking powerful ones and changing of powers) gave me a
| similar vibe.
| psyc wrote:
| With a dash of fight club. It reminds me of the scene where
| Tyler puts a gun to Raymond's head and makes him go back to
| college.
| sacrosancty wrote:
| Even in countries with universal healthcare, people regularly
| can't afford treatment because expensive treatments aren't
| included.
| NoGravitas wrote:
| Like in the UK, teeth are considered luxury bones.
| FrenchDevRemote wrote:
| My grandma got a million dollar cancer treatment over a few
| years, multiple surgeries, chemos, meds, dozens of
| appointments.
|
| We paid for TV and parking(and we could have gotten free
| taxis to the hospital/doctors appointments but she didn't
| want to ride with a stranger...)
|
| Are you talking about 3rd world countries?
| spicybright wrote:
| What kind of treatments? How regularly?
| Closi wrote:
| > What kind of treatments? How regularly?
|
| In the UK there is a department called NICE which uses
| health economics to understand how to best utilize the
| funding for the national health service to best improve
| health outcomes (generally measured by increasing QALY or
| Quality-Adjusted Life Years, but there are multiple
| measures in reality). This means that if there is a PS500k
| treatment that could save the lives of a 70 year old, but
| there is a PS1m treatment that could save the life of a 20
| year old, and there is only budget for one, it would go to
| the PS1m treatment because it has the biggest impact on
| QALY.
|
| So the treatments that don't get approval are usually those
| that have a poor return. Note that it's usually the whole
| treatment that gets approved / denied rather than
| particular patient (or it is approved for a particular
| subset of people).
|
| The other issue is capacity - so for instance, if there is
| only a limited capacity to perform MRI scans, then triage
| is required.
| diordiderot wrote:
| As an American, that's just disgusting. The government
| shouldn't decide if your parents die.
|
| The free market should decide. If you created enough
| shareholder value then you'll have enough to pay for
| their treatment like God intended.
| spicybright wrote:
| I'm hoping this is sarcasm.
| diordiderot wrote:
| It is indeed
| LadyCailin wrote:
| I know this is tongue in cheek, but all these countries
| also have private health options, so it's not really a
| genuine argument against it anyways. If you were too poor
| to afford good coverage in the US, you wouldn't be able
| to afford the private coverage in other countries either,
| but for rich people, private insurance is easily
| obtainable, for relatively cheap too, since they compete
| with "free".
| Symbiote wrote:
| It's worth mentioning that in the UK you can still pay
| for private treatment, and thus avoid any queues. You can
| also buy insurance to pay for private treatment.
|
| A few countries forbid this, including Canada.
| krzyk wrote:
| Universal healthcare is well overrated in the US.
|
| From a country that had it, it usually means: ugly
| hospitals, sad faces, long queues for treatments (I mean
| wait time for "free" treatment can be well over a year).
|
| There is no free lunch.
|
| On the other hand, I usually can get my kid to doctor same
| day, while using private healthcare provider (paid by my
| employer) it is almost impossible, 2-3 days wait.
|
| On yet another hand, to get registered to my local doctor I
| need to use phone and start calling when they open up (8am)
| - sometimes I can't get to registration. The private
| healthcare has a normal website where I can look up
| registrations - so it is less time consuming (and
| automateable to some degree).
|
| Private hospitals are rare here, and most of real work is
| done by public ones. Because the hospitals don't have
| enough money, they e.g. don't provide separate meals for
| people that need them (e.g. you had a digestive tract
| operation), so it is up for the family.
|
| Good thing recently is that if your kid needs to go to
| hospital, there might beds for parent to stay with the kid
| (I'm not sure if that is that common in all hospitals)
| beojan wrote:
| Private healthcare in the UK would have many of the
| problems you identify with the NHS if it couldn't pass
| anything difficult to the NHS.
| Deritiod wrote:
| Good for you that your employer pays for it.
|
| I think universal healthcare is a social must and we need
| to fix it instead of talking it down.
| NoNameProvided wrote:
| I live in east Europe in a country with public healthcare
| (our system even considered to be in bad state). However
| if I have to choose between spending the saving of my
| family and spending a week or a month in an ugly
| hospital, I choose the latter without thinking. The
| doctors doing the healing are the same, the quality is
| the same, only aesthetics differ.
|
| There are problems with puclic healthcare that needs
| solving, but I would much rather focus on thoose problems
| than pumping insurace companies with money so private
| hospitals can charge 10x-100x the price of a treatmant
| (compared to Europe for example).
| reacharavindh wrote:
| I think the right solution is the middle - private
| primary care and public chronic & advanced care. India
| does this but loses out on effectiveness because of
| capacity problems and simply the huge scale it needs to
| work at.
|
| Primary care is provided by private doctors and
| hospitals, so it is almost like a business. Doctors
| offices have websites, and get reviews from general
| public. You choose where you go to. All health insurances
| cover almost all of them. The doctor's offices are
| "competing" to provide a good service - being clean,
| solving problems correctly, not charging too much etc.
|
| The government spends what ever money it allocates for
| healthcare on Public hospitals that focus on expensive
| medical equipment(labs, diagnostic machines etc), and
| treating chronically ill patients.
|
| In an ideal world, you go to private doctors to figure
| out what is wrong, and then use the public facility if
| you can wait, and get the surgery/medicine/treatment for
| free. Often times, the private doctor refers you to a
| public doctor with a specific note that says this person
| needs this particular surgery using this particular
| medical device.
|
| However, this systems leaves a big hole in catering to
| the poor who cannot afford to go to a private doctor for
| primary care owing to costs. No system is perfect. I
| think this model has the most potential for better
| healthcare.
| krzyk wrote:
| I think a good entry point for making public healthcare
| better would be making each doctor visit require a small
| amount of money. E.g. $1 or $5. This way people that go
| to doctor just to have a talk (because they are bored -
| yes that happens in public healthcare, because it is free
| so people abuse it) would free up the queue for people
| that really need the visit.
|
| AFAIR there was such proposition in France some time ago,
| I don't know how they solved that.
| Cyclical wrote:
| Coming from Canada, and having had multiple large
| surgeries and hospital visits over the years, I've had an
| entirely different experience. We have universal
| healthcare and some of the best hospitals in the world.
| As well, the NHS in the UK is consistently ranked among
| the best healthcare in the world. I have experienced just
| as long wait times at U.S. hospitals as I have at
| Canadian ones, but with honestly far worse service as it
| felt like the doctors were trying to get me out of their
| sight as fast as humanly possible.
| sgjohnson wrote:
| All kinds, very often.
|
| They aren't outright denied, just backlogged for years.
| Need a hip replacement in the UK, and you're a smoker? Good
| luck trying to get it within a year.
|
| Because it turns out that healthcare is a service, and just
| making it "free" doesn't magically make it immune to
| scarcity.
| amcoastal wrote:
| ulzeraj wrote:
| While in Brazil a person very close to me suffered a very
| destructive paranoid psychotic crisis. We've tried help
| from the public healthcare but their earliest waiting time
| was 1 month. I've slept for days at the door because she
| was convinced there were Russian cameras and radioactive
| emitters planted at our house and wanted to run away. That
| person stopped to eat and bath and wasn't thinking
| rationally. We couldn't wait a month.
|
| It was the worst time of my life. I had to pay a private
| psychiatrist to treat her. A very good one - we plotted
| together a plan to partake on her fantasy and administer a
| risperidone injection which was super effective. She is
| fine now and visits said doctor once in a year only.
|
| Sure you can go to a general clinic but the doctor will
| forward you to the proper specialist queue which might take
| months or even years.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| In the Netherlands I once sought an eye treatment for my
| wife. The local hospital only had a waiting time of 2
| months. So I called my insurance company who then found
| another clinic ~45 minutes away by public transport in
| some small village, which had a waiting time of 2 days.
| Everything (besides the bus ride) was still covered by
| the public insurance system.
| Deritiod wrote:
| In Germany my aunt gets expensive cancer treatment without
| extra pay.
|
| Any specific you think about?
| trompetenaccoun wrote:
| Meanwhile people have to pay thousands of Euros to maintain
| their teeth if they need root canals or prosthetic dentures
| and such. Maybe you're just not old enough to know?
|
| Btw the "free" tier system is a joke in Germany. Waiting
| months for an appointment is the norm for anything more
| serious than a cough, unless you're privately insured which
| all the rich people and interestingly civil servants are.
| Tells you a lot when those working for the government don't
| use the public insurance themselves.
|
| People may be surprised to hear that someone with a medium
| income (by EU standards) can get better healthcare in
| Africa than in a place like Germany. Or at least for now,
| the ANC is working hard on destroying the private
| healthcare sector in SA.
| Deritiod wrote:
| I have to visit a few low key specialists: Neuro etc. And
| while waiting is true sometimes calling around helps.
|
| The teeth problem I'm aware of and find it quite unfair
| indeed.
|
| Nonetheless cancer doesn't make you poor in comparison to
| the USA.
|
| Still something which has to be fixed in Germany.
|
| But you still have the option to go private if you want.
| trompetenaccoun wrote:
| Do you have personal experience with fully private
| heathcare systems in other countries? I ask because
| reacting to criticism of your system with whataboutism
| concerning the US is not rational, that's a fallacious
| argument.
|
| As for the US I'm not an expert but my gut feeling is
| that people compare apples to oranges just like with most
| of these international comparisons. Cost of living is
| much higher in the US first of all. Things are simply
| more expensive in general and American salaries are a lot
| higher for anyone moderately educated. No one I know
| who's moved to the US has any problems with insurance,
| they can simply afford it.
|
| Now if you compare a government sponsored system in
| Germany with private insurance in the US, of course the
| former will be cheaper (be careful though, some of the
| real cost is hidden). But like mentioned you also get
| completely different treatment. Cost in the US could
| likely be cut by making the service worse. If you want to
| pay even less, have you looked at the Chinese system?
| Germans are massively overpaying in comparison to the PRC
| and it's ruining the middle class. /s Gotta sinophy your
| healthcare with 10 Yuan TCM pills for cancer treatments.
| Because cheap is apparently the goal when it comes to
| healthcare.
|
| Btw, here's the kicker if you want to discuss price: With
| the top notch treatment you get in private South African
| clinics, people still pay less for their private
| insurance over there than the government mandated low
| quality one in Germany. I know because I've used both.
| Deritiod wrote:
| There were articles of people from USA with proper jobs
| taking a deep dive after cancer.
|
| The critisism is coming from USA to.
| trompetenaccoun wrote:
| https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/krank-und-ruiniert-
| schu...
|
| >The critisism is coming from USA to.
|
| Dumb people exist in the US too - color me surprised.
| It's not about defending the US healthcare system, I'm
| sure there are enough issues worth criticizing. However
| almost every time one sees such reports it turns out the
| people were simply under-insured or outright uninsured if
| you actually bother to look at the details and not just
| the headline. So in Germany you have similar high bills,
| people are simply ignorant of this because the true cost
| is socialized and the tax payer pays for it. Have you
| never wondered how a fully privately insured person
| living a comparable lifestlye at the end of the month
| still has more disposable income in the US compared to
| Germany?
| Deritiod wrote:
| You can't be underinsured in Germany at least for
| critical thing's.
|
| The bills are smaller. USA is paying a high price for
| their health system. This one is statistically shown.
| hulitu wrote:
| > And asking stranger kids "Hey kids, want some KFC?"...
|
| This is not donating to the poor.
| willcipriano wrote:
| Judging by the English it probably is where the authors of
| the malware are from. It's probably a cultural disconnect
| issue but there are places in South America, Asia and Africa
| where you could do this and it would be a big deal to those
| kids. Often people bring boxes of chocolate in their luggage
| to hand out to children when they vist these sort of places.
|
| In the US places like that exist as well but under 13s aren't
| just hanging around to invite out and feed.
| can16358p wrote:
| While the action may look creepy and KFCs definitely not the
| healthiest choice, it _is_ donating. You are donating food to
| someone hungry.
| nemo44x wrote:
| You're probably just helping poor people acquire diabetes
| faster. In the USA poor people are more likely to be fat
| suggesting food access is not a problem.
| code_duck wrote:
| People associate fast food and lower quality food with
| type 2 diabetes, but Type 2 is associated with excessive
| carb intake. More expensive food often has just as many
| carbohydrates.
| can16358p wrote:
| If someone's really hungry ordering them a meal in KFC is
| better than them not eating anything.
|
| No one's going to get that type II from a Zinger or two.
| boondaburrah wrote:
| Access to quality food is a problem. Unhealthy food is
| far cheaper than healthy food.
| nemo44x wrote:
| Perhaps but it's really that fat people eat too much. If
| you're going to eat a rich meal then limit the amount you
| eat. Don't drink soda all day. Avoid snacking all day.
|
| It's really an issue with personal responsibility more
| than food choice.
| nwatson wrote:
| U.N. World Food Programme is a better choice. You won't be
| accused of Comet Pizza atrocities, though to QAnon anything
| U.N. is a problem.
| closewith wrote:
| From the article:
|
| > Activity 2: Take five less fortunate children to Dominos,
| Pizza Hut or KFC for a treat, take pictures and videos, and
| post them on social media.
|
| It's one of the required activities to allegedly get the
| decryption key.
| [deleted]
| black_13 wrote:
| exabrial wrote:
| Right now, most people in the US work for free 3-4 months out of
| the year via taxes. This is theft as well, but interestingly
| enough it has a smaller overhead then taxes, which nearly all of
| the funds are transferred to the 1%.
| btdmaster wrote:
| Side note: taxes do not fund spending in countries that issue
| their own currency and that currency is not pegged to something
| else. In this sense, the US does not need taxes to fund
| spending on healthcare, in the same way it does not need taxes
| to spend nearly $1 trillion on the military.
|
| Modern monetary theory describes taxes as primarily tools to
| reduce some effects of income inequality (and that is not done
| anymore) and, most importantly, provide the value of money. In
| essence, taxes (and the threat of imprisonment if you do not
| pay them) is what makes paper, and now numbers on computers, a
| thing you will die without.
| seoaeu wrote:
| It is wild how many folks on HN think they shouldn't have to
| pay taxes
| exabrial wrote:
| It's not wild to think I shouldn't be forced to work for free
| 3-4 months out of the year, especially when nearly all of the
| money is being transferred to the 1%. If it were actually
| contributing to something I may have a different opinion, but
| that is not the case.
| barneygale wrote:
| "Taxation is theft" is the rallying cry of the overprivileged
| who want to feel like victims for once.
| exabrial wrote:
| Completely false, and an attempt at character defamation
| while sidestepping the facts.
|
| A primary human right is you own the fruits of your labor.
| Period.
| DarylZero wrote:
| Equating people's income with "the fruits of their labor"
| is ridiculous.
|
| (Might as well claim that the government's income collected
| through taxes is the fruits of the government's labor.)
| exabrial wrote:
| My income is the fruit of my labor... That not really
| disputable... I'm not working for free.
| DarylZero wrote:
| It's very unrealistic, one might say childishly naive, to
| assume that this is how income is distributed.
| exabrial wrote:
| They have a word for that: Slavery.
| dontbenebby wrote:
| That's an interesting name.
|
| >The group's multiple-paged ransom note suggests that victims
| perform three socially driven activities to be able to download
| the decryption key.
|
| Wow, just that sentence alone makes a flood of memories come
| back.
|
| (Purposefully doing my morning... executive time... in a place I
| never went when I was younger to get a fresh look at things.)
|
| Just so everyone is on the same page, The Goodwill company is not
| good at all. They used to be, maybe, but they do this thing where
| they pay people less than minimum wage who often do their job
| better than folks with a "normal" IQ.
|
| It was also widely known in my hometown if you donate to them,
| the employees pick off the good stuff so it rarely meets the
| shelves -- anyone who was a serious computer hobbyist would do
| deals on Craigslist, since unlike eBay, if someone just starts
| walking away with your device without paying you can physically
| stop them or call the cops.
|
| I'm an enviornmentalist, I don't believe in getting the newest
| anything if the old works, so often I'd sell a previous device
| after doing my best to wipe the hard drive.
|
| Only once did I have an issue on Craigslist, and it was after I
| had moved to a new state.
|
| I had someone I sold a cracked iPhone threatening to sue me and a
| bunch of other nonsense. I told them the ad said as is, and I had
| assumed they were buying it for the parts, which they paid a more
| than fair price for, and that it was unsurprising that an iPhone
| with a cracked screen would fail, and they can meet me at kroger
| for their money back minus a restocking fee, like you'd expect at
| Best Buy, if they promise to never contact me again.
|
| I picked Kroger because they had an armed security guard, and
| apparently literally doing the sale inside the lobby of a college
| town police station wasn't enough to send a message: I am
| operating in the open, I am giving you a fair deal, we are not
| friends, and I get very angry when I have to put a bunch of
| thought into how to convince someone to never make me feel unsafe
| again.
|
| (I'd love to find an analyst role, but I don't know how you land
| those, my email is in my bio if anyone is having staffing issues
| and wants to make an offer.)
| leovander wrote:
| We similarly did this at a hackathon.
|
| > Droplock is a tool to help you when your laptop is stolen...
| The thief is prompted with an option to donate to charity
| (through JustGiving, another BattleHack sponsor) or pay the
| laptop owner directly via Braintree. If they fail to take one of
| these options, the laptop gets locked down until payment is made.
|
| https://dropbox.tech/developers/droplock-a-dropbox-hack-wins...
| paulgb wrote:
| I was expecting them to want you to make a donation and send the
| receipt, but they want you to actually round up less fortunate
| kids and take them out for pizza. Bizarre.
| t67576567567 wrote:
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| prmoustache wrote:
| They don't state you shouldn't ask the parents (and also
| invite them) to complete task 2.
| cuttysnark wrote:
| "okay...but why are you doing this for us?"
|
| "m'am, it's a long story...they have my files. Also, I am
| recording you. Who wants breadsticks?!"
| nvr219 wrote:
| Nobody gets arrested for buying pizza for a bunch of kids.
| amalcon wrote:
| Maybe not arrested, but you are pretty likely to have an
| unpleasant interaction with the police at a minimum if
| you're walking up to kids and asking them to come with you.
| Honestly the best way to do this (as in least likely to
| interact with the police) in the U.S. would be to hire
| actors -- which would feel awfully scummy to me, but that's
| honestly the safest way to do it.
|
| Now, if it asked you to buy some pizzas and just hand them
| to some less fortunate kids, you could probably do that
| without interacting with the police. You'd still need to be
| careful, but it could probably be done.
| dheera wrote:
| Just invite the parents along, or deliver the pizza to
| them. Problem solved
| chasd00 wrote:
| it's unfair but a woman may be able to pull this off with
| kids that live on her street with parents she's at least
| waved at. A man? not so much, and the police will
| definitely be engaged.
| 9873259735609 wrote:
| Not in most of the world, but I could definitely see
| someone get arrested (or worse) for that in the US.
| theodric wrote:
| OK, show us how it's done
| nvr219 wrote:
| ok
| Hamuko wrote:
| Someone apparently got arrested for offering candy to kids
| though, so I wouldn't count on it.
|
| https://www.shawlocal.com/2020/10/26/man-charged-with-
| disord...
| wonderbore wrote:
| I mean, rolling down the window offering candy to
| strangers is the literal textbook example of a 70s
| predator, so it's extremely suspicious. Hand out candy
| while walking and it won't be _that_ bad.
| mike_hock wrote:
| It's a comical stereotype of a pedophile that it's almost
| laughable that police took it seriously. I wonder what
| came out of that "disorderly conduct" charge, because
| what did he do other than _remind_ someone of a
| stereotype?
| [deleted]
| topaz0 wrote:
| People in this thread have extremely optimistic expectations
| of the police. In this country at least, the police don't
| protect poor people, kids or no. It's not what they're
| spending their time doing.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| Arguably the value in potential change of the rich interacting
| with the poor is immeasurably higher than the meal itself's
| monetary value.
|
| I think if I needed to do this in a UK community where I wasn't
| already known then I'd speak to a MP/councillor and say I
| wanted to fund them having a meal with X poor families so they
| could hear about their struggles and such.
|
| It's actually an interesting challenge.
|
| You could probably donate '5 family pizza dinners' to a school
| in a poorer area, eg for a school fair.
| usednet wrote:
| Its definitely a cultural thing. The task would be extremely
| easy in any Indian city, but they probably don't realize it
| would be near impossible in the West. Same with task 3, it
| would bankrupt Americans to pay for somebody else's medical
| bills.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| It is completely insanity. It starts by assuming that the
| affected user has or could ever be available to have
| facesomething, instasomething and whasomething accounts,
|
| and that said user could ever be convinced to open some,
|
| and that said user could access them on a machine apart from
| the infected.
|
| They are completely bonkers.
| danans wrote:
| It's only perhaps possible in the most desperately
| impoverished portions of Indian cities. If you think even
| moderately poor and above Indians are going to be OK with a
| random person picking up their children for a meal, that's
| pretty unlikely.
| iepathos wrote:
| There is no requirement to "pickup" any children. Easiest
| way to accomplish task 2 is to wait outside a pizza hut or
| kfc and ask families coming in if it's ok if you pay for
| their meal and take some photos to help with your
| situation. You can explain your situation to people if
| there are any questions and pretty much everyone will be
| happy to accept a free meal for your good deed. Free money
| with no strings is accepted by 99.9% of people in every
| country.
| notsureaboutpg wrote:
| pcthrowaway wrote:
| I encountered children begging for food and/or money in
| Delhi
| devoutsalsa wrote:
| Slumdog pizzanaire.
| danans wrote:
| Yes, I think that's captured by "the most desperately
| impoverished portions of Indian cities". Their parents
| have often sent them to beg, because the need is greater
| than that society's willingness to fill (vs. low income
| school lunch programs in the US that keep us from having
| that scenario). The blame for that situation is squarely
| on India.
|
| But you don't have to go very far up the socioeconomic
| ladder even in India to get to a strata of the population
| who would not send their kids to beg in the streets.
| People there wish to protect and provide for their kids
| as much as anywhere else in the world.
| accurrent wrote:
| > The blame for that situation is squarely on India.
|
| This is a bit of a sweeping statement. Colonization has a
| big role to play here also. When the british left india
| the average life expectancy was barely 40. Many other
| former colonies struggle with poverty and the
| socioeconomic disaster that it brings along. India has
| improved since then but has a long way to go.
| danans wrote:
| > This is a bit of a sweeping statement. Colonization has
| a big role to play here also
|
| I agree completely. Colonization set the stage for many
| of the persistent struggles faced by many in the
| developing world. But colonial powers didn't teach people
| in India how to oppress their own people, even if they
| wasted no time taking advantage of and amplifying the
| pre-existing situation.
|
| Today, when a country as productive as India (they are
| self sufficient in food production) still has large
| numbers of children going hungry, it suggests that there
| are serious issues with distribution of basic resources
| like calories. Yes, it has improved, but not nearly
| enough.
|
| Also, the US is not orders of magnitude better in this
| way, since we have millions of children relying on "last-
| resort" food security programs - vestiges of the New Deal
| - that are under constant threat of being cut. Before
| these programs were enacted in the 1930s, children were
| indeed going hungry in the streets of the US, and it
| continued for a long time afterwards (and sometimes to
| this day).
|
| If we didn't have these programs, I'm not convinced the
| situation wouldn't be more like India, since we have
| equivalent fundamental social ills that drive children
| into precarious hunger situations.
| andi999 wrote:
| Or task 3 would also be impossible in a country with
| universal health care.
| soneil wrote:
| That was my first thought - the only logical way I could
| see for step 3 would be to pay for people's parking.
| refurb wrote:
| Universal healthcare doesn't pay for everything. My
| friend in Canada has a boy with a rare disease and the
| out of pocket costs are significant.
| threads2 wrote:
| Hey don't downvote this person! Pharmaceuticals, dental,
| vision are all things Canadians still have to pay for.
| It's a real shame.
| cube00 wrote:
| Even countries with universal health care have private
| hospitals, they'll take your money. One near me asks you to
| consider paying for their services out of your retirement
| funds if you don't have private health insurance.
| andi999 wrote:
| So change the premise of a person who cannot afford the
| treatment to cannot afford it in a private hospital?
| Hownto find such a person?
|
| Probably the easiest of alln3 is to fly to some poor
| country and do the stuff there (supported by a local
| lawyer).
| 9873259735609 wrote:
| There are plenty of people who cannot get care at
| government hospitals in countries with "universal
| healthcare", because of waiting lists, because the
| government doesn't consider the treatment they need to be
| worthwhile, etc. You could easily find some of those
| people on crowdfunding sites, and the media occasionally
| writes about such cases. The problem is that paying for
| their treatment at a private hospital would be very
| expensive, unless the ransomware would accept a partial
| crowdfunding contribution.
| mushbino wrote:
| I've never been bankrupted by paying for millions of senior
| citizens to have Medicare, but I have been bankrupted by my
| own health care expenses.
| hedora wrote:
| If the goal is to pay off some random person's medical
| debt, things become extremely affordable:
|
| https://ripmedicaldebt.org
|
| I think that, by law, whenever debt is sold, the person
| that owes the debt should have the right to buy their own
| debt at the sale price. The current system is full of moral
| hazards, and this would help level the playing field.
|
| (Sorry to hear about the bankruptcy. That really shouldn't
| be possible, anywhere.)
| dheera wrote:
| I think one of the truly bizarre issues with helping the less
| fortunate is that many affluent people don't want to be _seen_
| helping people on the street. They 'd rather discreetly put
| money in a box for "someone else" to do the "dirty" work.
| digital_butt wrote:
| Honestly, I'd rather just pay the money directly than do all of
| this BS.
| Majestic121 wrote:
| I assumed the "goodwill" would be a donation to an association
| that would be a front for the hackers to get the money somehow,
| but it seems that it's really acts of goodwill with no real money
| flowing, so maybe the hackers actually believe they're doing good
| ?
| dontbenebby wrote:
| Maybe someone should trace the flows and look for conflicts of
| interest.
| RektBoy wrote:
| Maybe, but it sounds too difficult, why not just force people
| to pay in XMR and byebye.
| [deleted]
| bko wrote:
| Wouldn't any legitimate charity return money that was donated
| through coercion? If someone stole something and gave it to me,
| and the rightful owner asked for it back, I would give it back.
| I guess it would just look bad asking for them to return it but
| most people would understand.
| pwdisswordfish0 wrote:
| I guess "it's not about the money, it's about sending a
| message".
| chadash wrote:
| The malware group is not asking for donations to
| organizations, but to individuals at the hospital. They are
| requiring that someone at the infected business records
| videos of themselves going to a hospital or health clinic,
| looking for people who seem like they need financial help and
| offering to help them pay for their medical care.
|
| 1) Good luck suing poor individuals to get your money back 2)
| It's hard to fathom what kind of asshole you'd have to be to
| walk into an ER, record a video of you offering people money
| to help pay their hospital bill and then demand that money
| back off-camera.
| sfg wrote:
| I imagine you'd explain before recording what is going on
| (assuming you don't just fake the entire thing with some
| friends), rather than doing anything as silly as suing
| anybody. It wouldn't take more than a token amount to get
| people to participate. A lot of people wouldn't even want
| money. They'd get that this kind of blackmail is horrible
| and help you out.
| surement wrote:
| > It's hard to fathom what kind of asshole you'd have to be
|
| I don't think you picked up on who this asshole is in this
| situation
| mushbino wrote:
| That just sounds like campaign season.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I mean charities could open up crypto accounts; since it's a
| public ledger, the ransomware operators would be able to see
| the transaction.
| boredpudding wrote:
| Being forced to donate would just result in refunds. The
| current way they're doing it, there's no way to refund.
| seanhunter wrote:
| There are charities who accept donations in crypto. We
| donated future royalties on secondary sales for some of the
| things we did at SXSW to Action against hunger for one
| example.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| Charities will "accept" nearly anything because turning
| down donations is bad publicity and people barely need a
| reason at all to turn on a charity. They don't want it
| though and will offload it as cheaply as possible. Often
| this is a minor cost center for some charities lol.
| moron4hire wrote:
| > We donated future royalties on secondary sales
|
| So you donated nothing?
| daniel-cussen wrote:
| What if their victims are already poor?
| nemo44x wrote:
| What happens when a poor person gets this virus?
| kirykl wrote:
| Likely in the world context of the ransomware creators, 'poor
| person' wouldn't own a computer
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| Is there a way to prove that you own an old bank account with X
| money in it? Or better, to be able to exhaustively list your
| bank accounts and their respective amounts? Well a salary bill
| pay document should be enough though if not falsifiable.
| blep_ wrote:
| I expect not. Actual government agencies have trouble with
| that kind of thing (for taxation/fines/judgment enforcement);
| random hackers have no chance.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Can I assume that the author of this ransomware is American or at
| least is very immersed in American culture? Because the
| activities listed sound very America-centric. I've never seen
| someone actually sleeping roadside in the cold, and since we have
| universal healthcare, I've also not heard of someone dying in the
| hospital because their loved ones couldn't gather up enough
| money.
|
| I guess I might as well just smash my hard drive with a hammer if
| I get this.
| drstewart wrote:
| Can I ask why you need permission or care about assigning a
| nationality in the first place?
|
| Also, the opposite of your country is not America. Aka just
| because you don't observe something in your country doesn't
| make it automatically American.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| It seems to come from India, though the only identifiers seem
| rather weak. I'll admit I know little about poverty in India,
| but all three seem possible there.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Doesn't India still have universal healthcare?
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| Again, I'll admit I know little, but the answer seems like
| "sort of." Wikipedia says 23% of people can't afford
| treatment, and hospitalization forces many of people into
| poverty or lifelong debt.
| nisegami wrote:
| >I've also not heard of someone dying in the hospital because
| their loved ones couldn't gather up enough money
|
| Am from a country with universal health care. It's not uncommon
| to die waiting for treatment or there simply not being any way
| to get the treatment in my country. Raising money to visit the
| US for treatment is a pretty common thing here as a result.
| nemo44x wrote:
| And in the USA if you don't have insurance and are dying
| you'll be treated. They act like dead poor people are piled
| up outside of hospitals. They'll even discount you to 0 if
| they see you're really poor.
| code_duck wrote:
| It's true that ERs don't turn people down, but some
| hospitals would be happy to treat someone but also send
| them a gigantic bill which may or may not eventually be
| waived. Speaking from experience, often people put off
| obtaining medical care because they fear large bills and
| financial ruin.
| nisegami wrote:
| I wanted to mention something like this, but I felt like my
| experience is too limited to be sure. My impression is that
| in the US, the cost of care will lead to people avoiding
| seeking treatment for things that don't appear urgent.
| Sometimes, those things are actually urgent and they'll be
| worse off for waiting. But in cases where there's a clear,
| urgent need for care, they'll rarely be denied treatment
| outright. Instead, they'll be burdened with debt
| afterwards.
| hnal943 wrote:
| Which is better in most cases than the rationed care of
| government healthcare, where people die waiting for
| "free" healthcare.
| pempem wrote:
| Here's the missing words: 'well funded and well
| implemented' universal healthcare. It is possible as the
| stories listed here indicate, and it works when done right.
|
| Blaming poor implementation is throwing out the baby with
| the bathwater.
|
| What does not work is a system where all things are private
| and everyone is at the hands of the market. That is
| something one of the richest countries in the world has
| shown us over and over and over again.
| seoaeu wrote:
| > Can I assume that the author of this ransomware is American
| or at least is very immersed in American culture?
|
| No, they sound like someone who learned about the US from
| internet memes, but doesn't have firsthand experience. For
| example, hospitals in the US do not generally collect payment
| at the time of treatment so it wouldn't really make much sense
| to show up to one and try to pay for someone needing urgent
| medical care
| code_duck wrote:
| Urgent Care facilities do. One time I badly needed a minor
| surgery. I went to an urgent care and was told they could see
| me immediately, but didn't accept my insurance and would
| charge $450. My other option was to go to the hospital across
| the street which did take my insurance, but I had to wait 8
| hours and be treated like I was an opiate addict with a self
| inflicted or imaginary condition. So, that would have been
| great if someone somehow showed up and paid the first clinic.
| BrianOnHN wrote:
| > I've also not heard of someone dying in the hospital because
| their loved ones couldn't gather up enough money.
|
| It's more like "having to postpone treatment so long that it
| doesn't work."
|
| The same also applies if you have to fight with scheming
| insurance companies.
|
| The government, all of us, have most to gain from a healthy
| society. And a dead person couldn't care less about their
| health. It's about time our systems reflect that!
| Hamuko wrote:
| Well, the way that "activity" here is phrased, they kinda
| expect you to lurk in the nearest hospital for some kind of a
| medical emergency that can be solved with a bank transfer.
| The people postponing treatment probably aren't loitering in
| the hospital.
| irrational wrote:
| Take a video and post it to your social media account. So... what
| would someone like me who doesn't have any social media accounts
| do?
| Cheetah26 wrote:
| I had the same thought.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| They are assuming a completely made up reality where they mix
| up an invented target with all potential victims.
| rutierut wrote:
| This is probably obvious to anyone but there isn't anything
| "good" about this, I expected this to be something along the
| lines of a crypto donation to GiveDirectly but this is just a
| sick wannabe Blackmirror power play.
| donthellbanme wrote:
| kordlessagain wrote:
| It's the specifics that give it away. "Take 5 poor children
| from your neighborhood to Pizza Hut."
|
| Screaming kids at Pizza Hut aside, we can't make other people
| have empathy. They have to find it and explore it themselves,
| perhaps by seeing others do the same.
|
| It's especially ironic that someone with lowered empathy would
| be demanding someone else show fake empathy publicly before
| giving them back control of their own computer.
| chasd00 wrote:
| wouldn't taking 5 poor kids to a pizza hut be an act of
| sympathy and not empathy?
| neltnerb wrote:
| I think the approach is clumsy and overly constrained, but
| I would hope the idea was that by being forced to actually
| interact with neighbors and their families it would
| increase social cohesion and empathy.
|
| I don't think that's particularly incorrect, isolation from
| neighbors and the invisibility of the poor makes it a heck
| of a lot easier to ignore their problems.
|
| I'm not sure in this case it's sympathy or empathy, it
| sounds like mere facilitation of the potential for future
| relationships and dialog between poor kids and people well
| enough off to own their own computer.
|
| Imagining these hackers trying to individually determine
| whether someone has done a good enough job of pretending
| they're nice and whether a victim is _themselves_ too poor
| to do this stuff... pretty amazing that they 'd declare
| themselves the arbitrators of whether something is
| sufficiently repentant.
|
| And posting it on social media? What, are we doxxing
| ourselves now to get out of ransomware attacks? I don't
| even have twitter or facebook or instagram or whatsapp...
| for good reason! Why make it performative, someone could
| just send them receipts if the goal was to help regardless
| of publicity.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| Pretty sure that _being forced_ to do things typically
| increases resentment, not social cohesion and empathy.
| neltnerb wrote:
| Sure, sometimes. Certainly against the people applying
| force.
|
| I am definitely not suggesting this approach will help,
| it seems like a ridiculous solution that's all about
| exploiting performative compassion for the sake of the
| hacker's egos...
|
| But I also disagree with your statement as a blanket
| claim. Kids are forced to go to school and while they'll
| be resentful of the system or their parents or their
| teachers I haven't really seen kids being resentful of
| _each other_ and certainly their peer group develops
| social cohesion and empathy for one another.
|
| Everyone forced to do community service doesn't
| necessarily resent the people they are helping, they
| resent the judicial system.
|
| At least, that seems like the rational response to me, it
| would be incredibly petty to resent some kids you take to
| dinner just because you're doing it due to blackmail.
| Resent the blackmailers...
| unbalancedevh wrote:
| I just can imagine how I'd convince 5 kids to go to lunch
| with me, without outright kidnapping them. This sounds like
| Black Mirror material.
| [deleted]
| bell-cot wrote:
| Convince or not, I'm thinking you might attract some really
| personal attention from law enforcement by the time you
| made your pitch to the 5th kid.
|
| Or maybe you happen to be a 97-year-old retired nun, who
| everyone in your neighborhood knows, and it'd be fine. Not
| trying to be judgemental or anything.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| The demand is indicative of where the author lives: think
| where in the world it would be acceptable for a stranger
| to approach children under 13 and invite them to lunch at
| a restaurant.
| bonestamp2 wrote:
| Not necessarily even a stranger per se, but poor
| communities are often "closer" to each other. They
| (sometimes) depend on neighbors for help more than rich
| neighbors do. Many of the kids play outside because they
| don't all have ipads and playstations keeping them
| inside, many adults walk to the bus/subway and interact
| with the kids in their neighborhood every day. So, I can
| see how a well known neighbor might splurge on a treat
| for some of the kids in their neighborhood to brighten
| their day.
| iepathos wrote:
| Can't make people have empathy, but you can make them carry
| out empathetic acts over and over again through blackmail
| with this ransomware.
| pigtailgirl wrote:
| -- to nitpick -- empathy is the ability to put yourself in
| someones position & truly feel what their reality must be
| like -- compassion is acting on that empathy --
| iepathos wrote:
| It doesn't actually require having empathy to commit
| empathetic acts which are acts that display empathy. For
| example, smiling is an empathetic act, but it doesn't
| require having any actual empathy to do it. Sociopaths
| can smile and commit other empathetic acts to appear to
| have empathy without having any true empathy behind it.
| pigtailgirl wrote:
| -- not disagreeing with you! - just talking to the
| linguistics - the distinctions here are interesting :=)
| --
|
| https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/topic/compassion/definit
| ion
| oliv__ wrote:
| Is it empathetic if you don't mean it?
| iepathos wrote:
| Yes, an act can be empathetic even if the person doing it
| doesn't feel empathy. For example, smiling at another
| person is an empathetic act. Sociopaths do this all the
| time without feeling actual empathy for people. It makes
| it easier for them to blend in if they seem to have
| empathy via empathetic acts however disingenuous they may
| be.
| dentemple wrote:
| A "sick wannabe Blackmirror power play" is a little much.
|
| This is probably the cheapest ransomware unlock that's ever
| been put out there (unless you're based in the US, then good
| fucking luck on the medical care clause). If you're a company
| whose security policies are too terrible to survive a
| ransomware attack, then you'd rather be hit with this one than
| any of the others.
| trompetenaccoun wrote:
| Right. Picking up random children from the street and taking
| them to a restaurant comes at almost no cost. In fact if
| anyone sees this and calls the authorities they are likely to
| give you free lodging and food at a state owned facility top
| of it :)
| barneygale wrote:
| Again, this is mostly an American problem. In other
| countries you know your neighbours and local community and
| wouldn't have a problem feeding hungry kids.
| root_axis wrote:
| Hungry kids are only a problem in the U.S?
| KronisLV wrote:
| > In other countries you know your neighbours and local
| community and wouldn't have a problem feeding hungry
| kids.
|
| This is probably only viable in smaller communities where
| people know one another, which may or may not show
| something about the authors of the malware. It's not just
| a social "issue", but rather one of population density,
| where you end up not knowing almost anyone around you
| personally.
|
| Approaching random people, worse yet, kids, with promises
| of food in any metropolitan area or even moderately sized
| city would be viewed as exceedingly weird and creepy.
| Source: Eastern European country.
|
| I get what the malware authors were trying to do, but it
| sounds like a somewhat naive and perhaps detached from
| reality implementation of a "sort of positive" idea.
|
| It would have been way more viable to understand that
| payments for scammers work because they don't take hours
| or days of mucking about, but rather a payment through
| whatever means are available - which could also be
| applied to making the people affected donate to any
| number of charities of their or the authors' choice.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Right. I see that happen all the time in Canada, the UK,
| and even Germany. I think France has a national "Take a
| Strange Child to Lunch" Day, too.
| mathlover2 wrote:
| I can see a scenario in which a "chaotic good" hacker uses a
| customized form of ransomware on some large corporation or
| extremely wealthy person in order to force them to make a
| donation or do some majorly positive action for the world.1
| Pulling this off without going against the "good" qualification
| would require appropriately selecting the target and files to
| encrypt, and appropriately phrasing the demands made to that
| target: you want to choose a target that has a lot of unused
| money to give, you have to make sure that the files tied up are
| not things that other, more disadvantaged people would need,
| and you want to make sure that the requested positive action is
| both positive and not reversible by the other party after the
| fact.
|
| Needless to say, deploying the ransomware discussed in the link
| would not be a chaotic good act. More like neutral or chaotic
| evil.
|
| 1 And just to be clear, don't actually do this. I'm never going
| to do this, never have done this, certainly am not doing it at
| the moment, and I advise that no one else actually do this.
| There are better ways to use your time.
| temp8964 wrote:
| > "do some majorly positive action for the world"
|
| What can Jeff Bezos do more positive than creating Amazon?
|
| What can Elon Musk do more positive than creating Tesla and
| SpaceX?
|
| etc. etc.
| oehpr wrote:
| /s?
| l33t2328 wrote:
| Do you honestly think Amazon isn't a net positive for the
| world? Even ignoring how useful AWS is, Amazon.com is
| incredibly convenient.
| sodality2 wrote:
| > What can Jeff Bezos do more positive than creating
| Amazon?
|
| Donating
| possiblydrunk wrote:
| The ends justify the means - does this ever really work out?
| mikotodomo wrote:
| robin hood.exe
| RektBoy wrote:
| What is next? Be healthy ransomware? Forcing people to exercise
| on camera, for keys?
| k_sze wrote:
| Now you're giving them ideas.
| fodi wrote:
| Sounds like a Black Mirror episode.
| [deleted]
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| I think there is an untapped market for people willingly paying
| some people to watch/monitor them achieve their desired goals
| consistently. It's similar to beeminder and bodydoubling or
| r/GetMotivatedBuddies except it would be much more effective
| because of professionalism. On beeminder there's not check if
| you being honest/accountable. On GetMotivatedBuddies you
| generally find unreliable people AND you must coach them too.
| On bodydoubling websites, people are watching each other but
| there's generally not interactions, just eyes. And no
| professionalism.
|
| The one that will build this will enable a disruptive market
| where people can finally become much closer to their ideal
| self, by the effective means of social pressure, real-time
| e-coaching and monetary incentive. Does this actually exists?
| upupandup wrote:
| Wouldn't you just create a Twitch account for this?
| oefrha wrote:
| My new startup: on demand deepfake exercise footage of
| yourself.
| TheMerovingian wrote:
| Needs more blockchain.
| NoGravitas wrote:
| Sickos: Yes, ha ha ha, YES!
| steve76 wrote:
| loa_in_ wrote:
| "I found that, ironically, common sense isn't all that common
| around here"
| chungy wrote:
| I spent perhaps too long figuring out how the thrift stores
| launched a ransomware attack.
| FredPret wrote:
| Very Black Mirror
| jzellis wrote:
| Ah, the comments here never cease to provide amusement.
| cuttysnark wrote:
| Tangentially, I dislike strongly when people record videos of
| themselves doing "goodwill" for others--especially for social
| media; it always reeks [to me] of insincerity. Not to mention the
| often unwanted spotlight it casts onto the receiver of said
| goodwill. If one cares, one does acts of goodwill privately,
| without thinking about how others will react--including and
| especially--on the internet.
|
| "The true test of a man's character is what he does when no one
| is watching." -- John Wooden
|
| edit: taming em-dashes
| upupandup wrote:
| There's a channel on Youtube called Jimmy Darts, he gives out
| $500 to random people or whoever he deems they are poor. Lot of
| silly little tasks but you know I enjoy watching the content
| and people who really need the money get it.
|
| If somebody wants to also build a hospital and plaster their
| name on it, let them! As long as somebody benefits.
| zelos wrote:
| "Oh, the best charity is to give and not let other people know.
|
| But what if your example encourages others to give?"
| cuttysnark wrote:
| I've personally been inspired by seeing these acts in real
| life. I don't get the same feeling when the person is holding
| a camera phone in the face of a bewildered recipient. Sorry.
| Etheryte wrote:
| See also, "Extremis", modern Doctor Who series 10 episode 6
| [0]:
|
| "Only in darkness are we revealed. Goodness is not goodness
| that seeks advantage. Good is good in the final hour, in the
| deepest pit, without hope, without witness, without reward.
| Virtue is only virtue in extremis."
|
| [0] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6340130/characters/nm0524240
| pid-1 wrote:
| IDK, my family was poor and had no concept of charity.
|
| The first time I donated something was after a friend shared a
| social project they helped in LinkedIn. That was when I thought
| "hey, I'm kinda wealthy now, I probably could help.".
|
| So, I understand where you are coming from, influencers and
| shit, but there's a real chance that by doing any charity
| publicly you might trigger others to do as well.
| seoaeu wrote:
| I think the difference is whether you're sharing that you
| donated, or parading around some disadvantaged people for
| your social media followers. Making a hungry person chose
| between a meal and their dignity isn't charitable.
| reflexco wrote:
| I think the primary reason for this reaction is not just the
| inclination to be suspicious of virtue signaling when it's too
| obvious, but the fear of social pressure these public displays
| of charity might cause. We don't want to have to feel like
| we're forced to imitate.
|
| That's totally fair but then we also complain all the time that
| media is only filled with negativity and despair. Let's be
| rational and appreciate public displays of good deeds for what
| they are, good. If some people use these as a distraction from
| mischievous deeds on the backside, that's an other matter.
| [deleted]
| buscoquadnary wrote:
| Great video saitarizing that concept by New Zealand sketch
| comedy group Viva La Dirt League. Worth a chuckle.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lfXpKX0Ww0
| mattigames wrote:
| I actually think the complete opposite, there is so little good
| in the world that doing it to boost your ego or getting viewers
| on YouTube it's as good reason as any, and it can influence
| others to do the same, we learn pretty much everything by
| imitation, why would being good be any different? That guy who
| went viral for recording himself picking tons of litter without
| doubt made thousands of people think before littering and his
| actions have had a more positive impact than most people on
| this site.
|
| I only had to sleep in the streets one single cold night, I
| wouldn't have mind in the slightest to be filmed thanking the
| helper in exchange for a warm room, I definitely would had feel
| I got the upper hand on such "deal".
| huhtenberg wrote:
| 100%. Amen to that.
|
| I've read somewhere that all donations that Paul McCartney
| makes come with a rider that if his name is leaked, the
| donation is withdrawn.
|
| Regardless of whether this is true, I think that's _the_ way to
| donate if it comes from your heart.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| There is nothing less charitable than threatening a charity.
| If that rider is true then he is a jerk. The only reason to
| do that is because he wants the charity to congratulate him,
| yet keep quiet. If he wanted to make an actual anonymous
| donation then he could do so though a shell company. But no,
| he wants them to see where the money is coming from so they
| can shake his hand and smile at him for his benevolence. Want
| to be actually anonymous: cash in an envelope in the donation
| bin.
| cryptica wrote:
| I've been predicting the rise of 'good clans' and 'good mafias'
| for some time. IMO, as governments become more corrupt, good
| people will be forced to join clans which adhere to their
| principles for survival. Power will shift towards clans, mafias
| and hacker groups.
| larodi wrote:
| very typically it is clans/mafia that corrupt the governments.
| such claims that mafia/clans are better than governments are
| very short-sighted and childish by nature.
| cryptica wrote:
| What happened is that all the bad clans which produced no
| economic value have corrupted governments and are now using
| it to extract value from the good, value-creating citizens.
| Most of the bad people are already rich.
|
| Good, value-creating citizens never had to consider joining a
| clan before because they were able to easily capture profits
| from their own labor without much extra effort on the value-
| capture/extraction side (they could focus purely on value
| creation)... But as this is becoming increasingly difficult
| to do, they will be forced to join their own clans to ensure
| that they can capture more of the proceeds of the value which
| they created. Since it cannot happen naturally as it did
| before, it needs to happen via explicit political means.
|
| You can think of workers' unions as a kind of clan... This is
| happening everywhere in the economy now and IMO, it will only
| get worse as governments become more extractive and corrupt
| and as it becomes more profitable for people to spend their
| time and energy engaging in extractive activities rather than
| productive activities. The degree of corruption and
| aggression within clans will have to keep rising to match the
| corruption and aggression of governments.
| danans wrote:
| Ransomware GoFundMe. Cute, but still criminal and laughable
| completely unscalable as a way to address social issues.
| racl101 wrote:
| What if you're poor yourself? :(
| londons_explore wrote:
| This is a government backed outfit which is demo-ing it's
| abilities.
| Aleksdev wrote:
| Forcing me to help people at ransom isn't really going to make me
| feel good about doing it.
| shikoba wrote:
| > make me feel good about doing it
|
| I don't think it's the goal.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| I can see a younger version of myself making something like this
| and intentionally letting it slip to the media for attention. I
| th8nk this line is telling: "Since there are no known victims/
| targets for the ransomware group, their Tactics, Techniques and
| Procedures remain unknown."
|
| I don't think there's a risk if any great outbreak here. A bunch
| of scriptkiddies took some open source project and modified it
| with some silly instructions.
|
| Alternatively, I could see this used in one of those scam calls.
| They set up remote accesslike normally and then months laltrr
| the6 infrct their victims and the "trusted Microsoft technician"
| gives them a call to steal even more off their money. This time
| there's an actual piece of malware that gets removed, solidifying
| trust in the scammers even though they were the ones to infect
| the victims in the first place.
| karlzt wrote:
| You have a hell of a typo:
|
| >laltrr the6 infrct
|
| *later they infect
| jeroenhd wrote:
| I guess I must've missed the autocorrect suggestion. Too late
| to edit now. The curse of relying on modern tech, my mobile
| typing has become lazier as autocorrect learned to understand
| me better...
| bonestamp2 wrote:
| Maybe not even script kiddies, there are (allegedly) Ransomware
| as a Service organizations now.
| dontbenebby wrote:
| Don't be dismissive of script kiddies, they can cause a lot of
| chaos, and often do it because they feel like no amount of self
| education or self improvement will improve their chances of
| stable full time employment.
|
| (Hence many of them operating out of the former USSR.)
| jrm4 wrote:
| I don't dismiss. And while I don't specifically encourage
| anyone to do anything illegal, script kiddies are probably on
| balance _a good thing._ That 's just free pentesting.
|
| (This is part of my broader idea that "cybersecurity" will
| remain nearly entirely impotent until we figure out a way to
| inject real liability. When something breaks, someone needs
| to pay or be punished. It's that simple. Perhaps start with
| Microsoft.)
| goshx wrote:
| I've met tons of script kiddies over the years and none of
| them were concerned about employment. They do what they do
| just to show that they can.
| fny wrote:
| This a thousand times. The more nefarious hacks are done by
| state actors and professional groups.
|
| For script kiddies, it's mostly for the lulz.
| the_only_law wrote:
| > I've met tons of script kiddies over the years and none
| of them were concerned about employment. They do what they
| do just to show that they can.
|
| Even worse: when I was a kid trying to hack around everyone
| had some (probably false or based on rare occurrences)
| where the hacker/script kiddie would get caught but
| employed for their skills instead of prosecuted.
| johnmaguire wrote:
| This is the story of how Jono met Dug Song and started
| Duo!
|
| https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/19/how-hackers-dug-song-and-
| jon...
| Terry_Roll wrote:
| What do you expect when the world is run by criminals?
| Seriously!?!
|
| Look at the people who make laws, they dont have the
| intelligence or morality to even teach a TL;DR to everyone
| at school. Talk about set up to fail!
|
| And when they upgrade the laws they dont even inform each
| and every member of the public, let alone let the public
| debate whether its a good law or not.
|
| Democracy is the ultimate criminal act because people are
| tricked into having laws forced upon them by a small
| minority of criminals who decide what is best for you.
| Democracy is parenting of adults.
|
| And yet the stupid keep holding up the law as an example of
| righteousness without knowing ALL the laws. What is the
| definition of stupid? A law abiding citizen.
| tomc1985 wrote:
| So what would you have instead?
|
| A fully participatory democracy where every citizen votes
| on everything? Or authoritarianism?
| Terry_Roll wrote:
| > A fully participatory democracy where every citizen
| votes on everything?
|
| What like Switzerland?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_democracy#Ref
| ere...
| kjeetgill wrote:
| I was thinking the exact same thing, as former (and
| reformed) lightweight teen hacker. My motivations?
| Employment? More like for the sheer joy of discovery and
| fascination with working through ideas. And maybe the
| slightly sketchier teen hackers: lulz.
| iratewizard wrote:
| It's not enough to notice that something's possible. You
| have to do it for a good laugh and show your friends.
| Sorry, Valve.
| 0des wrote:
| I just wanted to know what was out there, and most
| importantly what actual aliens looked like. I cringe now.
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| >I cringe now.
|
| Why? They look that scary?
| bornfreddy wrote:
| That was one thing that became pretty apparent with
| smartphones - those blurred "photos" of UFOs were scams.
| If they weren't, there would be tons of high quality
| alien vehicles footage available by now.
| MockObject wrote:
| I'm not sure about that. I have a pretty good phone, but
| I still can't take a decent picture of the moon, so I'd
| have no hope with a suspicious airplane-sized light in
| the night sky. The cameras are optimized for selfies and
| meals.
| 0des wrote:
| One of my biggest disappointments about how I thought the
| future would be as a child is my lack of an alien best
| friend who lives in the house next door with my alien
| neighbors.
|
| Don't get me wrong the future is great. We've got smart
| devices that answer questions when spoken to, the
| knowledge of the world in our hand, the self driving
| cards and the paytokens and stuff. Just.. it's not the
| same. There has to be some kind of alien hominids out
| there.
|
| My childhood expectations vs what I actually received is
| so incongruent. Nobody even has any powers yet. I haven't
| seen anybody levitate a damn thing and it's really
| starting to wear me out. I'm losing hope.
| dontbenebby wrote:
| >I've met tons of script kiddies over the years and none of
| them were concerned about employment.
|
| Your sample is probably biased in some way. I've met many
| who feel trapped in wage slavery, here in the USA.
| 867-5309 wrote:
| agree. the freelancer / gig economy is dominate by script
| kiddie / template churner companies in India for whom
| $2/hr is a good wage. there's no competing with that
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| I love it when people come to me because their big
| spender investment in bottom dollar software they
| splurged for on fiver is failing and they're in panic
| mode. Like what did you expect performing an act of labor
| exploitation, a working machine? Loyalty?
| cupofpython wrote:
| this is a feature, not a bug, of globalization. Work that
| can be done in cheaper countries is allocated there.
|
| On a related note (and I get negative feedback whenever i
| say this, but) this is the future of all software
| developers as i see it. If you can do your entire job
| remotely, then "remote" is going to get optimized over
| time.
|
| It does not make sense to spend your time in USA (for
| example) coding when you can stop at developing the specs
| and send it overseas to be coded for half the cost or
| less. Architects dont lay bricks, and brick layers dont
| need to understand architecture. Accumulating knowledge
| of many different types of syntax for expressing the same
| principles is something that is only going to depreciate
| in value over time.
| ipaddr wrote:
| I think AI will do a better cheaper job before your
| vision of the future comes to life.
| cupofpython wrote:
| i like that bet, I was ignoring AI in my observations.
| The server running the AI will probably be cheaper
| overseas all the same though
| ipaddr wrote:
| We'll have the benefits of servers hosted locally but all
| staff will remote in from overseas.
| pault wrote:
| "Just" sending it overseas to be coded is more likely to
| end in failure than success, unless you have a lot of
| experience and know what the pitfalls are (which is a
| very expensive education). I'm not picking on developing
| countries; the same goes for big enterprise contractor
| providers in the U.S. They have no incentive to write
| stable, maintainable code. Their incentive is to make it
| just stable enough to not get sued and get it out the
| door as quickly as possible. An employee that will have
| to live with that code for several years will focus on
| maintainability purely out of self interest if nothing
| else. As to whether overseas firms are able to undercut
| domestic firms, it's a possibility, but anyone that has
| dealt with time zone issues and cultural barriers most
| likely knows what they are sacrificing to get that
| discounted rate.
| cupofpython wrote:
| Why wouldnt an overseas employee have all the exact same
| incentives and challenges to maintain their code as a
| more local remote worker?
|
| I think you are assuming I was implying overseas work to
| be all short-term contract work but I am not saying
| anything about the paperwork. The paperwork will write
| itself such that the relationship between a remote worker
| and the company is identical whether they are in texas or
| india. And itll happen that way because of financial
| incentive to do so
|
| It's already happening. People from NY and CA are moving
| to Texas and Georgia, and then their salaries are being
| reduced to adjust for cost of living - but they still
| make really good money for Texas or Georgia. Maybe those
| SWE think they are irreplaceable, but what they have
| effectively demonstrated to the company is that the work
| itself can be done entirely remote, and so when it comes
| time to replace them - they will look for a cheap remote
| worker. Maybe today it is tough to find good replacements
| in India, Ukraine, etc, but over time (on the order of 1
| generation would be my bet) those replacements will be
| much easier to find over there.
| klibertp wrote:
| > when you can stop at developing the specs and send it
| overseas to be coded for half the cost or less.
|
| Good luck with that. Please, do try it and report back to
| tell us how it went. My prediction:
|
| No matter what you do, the spec will be incomplete, and
| if it's large enough, it will contain contradictions. The
| culture of not questioning superiors in many of
| "overseas" will make it hard to notice and only after
| substantial time without progress someone will realize
| the problem. That person or group of people will start
| communicating with clients and overseas to work out the
| problems in the spec, accumulating additional overhead.
| The changes and additions to the spec will render a lot
| of work already done unusable, so the overseas team will
| have to start from scratch. Then, they will work on the
| code, while you will be wondering if they're working or
| not. If it turns out they do, sooner or later they will
| provide you with some results. The result is going to be
| pretty bad, because competent people don't want to work
| for $2/h, no matter where you go. But you will get some
| result, and will begin testing it. You will discover a
| lot of bugs, and then you will have to fight tooth and
| nail to have them fixed, because nobody will want to take
| responsibility for the failures. At this point, the
| project will be a year late, and will have flown past all
| reasonable estimates in terms of required funding. In the
| end, you're forced to contract consultants - you'll have
| to sell your kidney to pay them - who will make the
| product barely-usable some 2 years after anticipated
| launch date.
| cupofpython wrote:
| Yes there would be logistical issues if we tried to
| actualize this future today, rather than allowing it to
| naturally progress over time as I stated. Foreign culture
| is irrelevant, as you can bring people in to train them
| on-site and then let them go back home to work.. or send
| someone from here over there. Also remote workers will
| evolve to meet whatever is necessary to make the
| arrangement work because the financial incentive is HUGE
| and isn't going anywhere.
|
| the point is that lower cost of living areas will promote
| remote work to transition there from high cost of living
| areas over time. The pandemic already showcased this.
|
| Youre right that the end result will probably be worse
| than what we have today, but that will not stop it from
| happening. they will figure out how to be good enough
| vincentmarle wrote:
| I agree with you in principle but having worked a lot
| with cheaper contractors overseas, in practice you are
| often wasting time and money.
| cupofpython wrote:
| yes today. overseas is still behind on raw skill. they
| will catch up, and SWE does not promote complicated work
| - it does the opposite. it promotes the simplest code
| that works, because that makes it easiest to maintain.
| sirmarksalot wrote:
| I suspect you've never been a technical liaison to an
| offshore team. I believe your vision is to replace all
| satisfying work with soul-crushing work. If all your work
| is done by people who don't want to work there, including
| the supervisors, then what kind of quality can your
| company expect?
| cupofpython wrote:
| >I believe your vision is to replace all satisfying work
| with soul-crushing work. If all your work is done by
| people who don't want to work there
|
| I am hesitant to believe what I think you are implying
| here. Do you think everyone in cheaper countries would
| prefer to live in more expensive countries? Even if
| provided a stable income far above everyone in their
| area?
|
| I also dont know what would be soul-crushing? It's doing
| what we do here, just over there.
| MathCodeLove wrote:
| I question the bias of your sample. Almost every one I've
| known who possesses any self-taught coding knowledge has
| gotten there specifically because they don't buy the
| "wage slavery" narrative and wanted a valuable skill. I'm
| from a very low income community and family so I imagine
| that if the type of person you're claiming exists were so
| predominant I'd have run into at least a few of them.
| goshx wrote:
| You can find my sample in a website called zone-h.org
| where most of them used it as a playground lol
| treeman79 wrote:
| Most I've known do it for the lols. This trait makes them
| really bad at holding down a good job.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| They certainly can cause a lot of chaos. In fact, I'd say
| that most malicious chaos normal internet users may be
| subjected to is done by these scriptkiddies.
|
| Theres a difference, though, between an extensive ransomeware
| attack and an experiment by a bunch of amateurs. The chance
| of key recovery is much greater if there are dedicated
| criminals behind the attack, but amateurs also don't get the
| widespread reach that the media coverage might suggest.
|
| I think the characterization of scriptkiddies as hopeless
| people is a bit romantic. I was something of a skiddie when I
| was young and I think a lot of their behaviour can be
| attributed to teenage recklessness.
|
| The former USSR certainly has their fair share of
| scriptkiddies but they're around in every country. When the
| USSR was still around, the west had its fair share of
| phreakers that developed into the hacker subculture and
| established the code of honour that evolved into the
| cybersecurity communities of today.
| zitterbewegung wrote:
| What if this ransomware infects a hospital ? Then it can
| kill people.
| SQueeeeeL wrote:
| What if a group of serious hackers infects a hospital...
| that place should probably be pen tested substantially
| throwaway1777 wrote:
| They are pen tested. Now same question, what happens when
| the ransomware infects a hospital?
| eitland wrote:
| Has happened before.
|
| Responsibility always lies on those who created the
| malware.
|
| But also on hospital IT if they didn't take precautions.
| _jal wrote:
| > But also on hospital IT
|
| Hospital IT soaks in a special set of impossible choices.
|
| Vendors lock them to insecure OSes and inflexible
| contracts. Regulations are equally inflexible. In
| general, security is in tension with providing patient
| care, especially in emergency situations. And all this
| stuff is super expensive, which means making do with old
| gear in a lot of places.
|
| I am in no way defending incompetence. But the reality is
| grim.
| zitterbewegung wrote:
| Yea it's not like a MRI machine you bought only uses
| Windows XP
| uni_rule wrote:
| Their ability to hold back infrastructure updates for old
| but still functional equipment is government tier.
| mechanical_bear wrote:
| What if the moon were your car and Jupiter your
| hairbrush?
| throwaway576 wrote:
| kodah wrote:
| There's a line in the guidelines that touches on the nature
| of this comment.
|
| Since you have 1 karma:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| throwaway576 wrote:
| Appreciate your concern and goodwill.
|
| When I see sweeping, often incorrect generalizations, I
| will respond.
|
| His statement in the parenthesis seemed unnecessary. I
| wanted to point out that his premise could also be
| applicable to the gunslingers.
|
| Now, watch my karma go negative ;)
| kodah wrote:
| I mean, you're trying to create an off-topic thread on a
| topic you know will be divisive. No need to sugar coat
| that you're going out of your way to harm the community.
| [deleted]
| throwaway576 wrote:
| I'm holding up a mirror to the community. No intention to
| harm.
|
| Some won't like what they see.
|
| -\\_(tsu)_/-
| kodah wrote:
| That may be what you're telling yourself, but that's not
| reality.
| [deleted]
| BurningFrog wrote:
| I suspect that much of these "former USSR script kiddies" are
| actually the kleptocratic Russian regime.
| boredumb wrote:
| If only there was universal healthcare, than we wouldn't need
| private entities coercing individuals to forfeit parts of their
| paychecks to pay for strangers lifestyles, the government would
| have rendered that service obsolete! Another win for the free
| market?
| rafale wrote:
| Taxation is coercion. Higher taxation is higher coercion.
|
| With that being said, the US already spends more on public
| healthcare than Canada does, so the problem is a lot more
| complex than where should the money come from.
| Psillisp wrote:
| Patching bullet holes is expensive.
| maxerickson wrote:
| You can just as well say that property is coercion. Like I
| get that you won't agree, but you are asserting a value
| system when you do that.
| surement wrote:
| taking something with the threat of force is not the same
| as owning something that you traded for in a mutually
| agreed upon transaction
| DarylZero wrote:
| There still needs to be an initial act of taking by force
| to set up the initial ownership, creating the possibility
| of trade.
| surement wrote:
| No, there doesn't. You can own and trade something you
| built. That's what remunerated work is.
| DarylZero wrote:
| You still have to build it out of something.
|
| An economy of pure traded labor, like trading foot
| massages or whatever, wouldn't actually have property.
| 9873259735609 wrote:
| There are natural resources that nobody created. Using
| them to create something is not coercion and results in
| property that can be traded for other property or
| services. Property can be coercion (e.g. untouched land
| claimed by or with the support of the state), but it
| doesn't have to be.
| DarylZero wrote:
| Enacting property rights over those natural resources is
| the initial act of coercion that makes trade possible.
|
| Merely using resources isn't coercion but it doesn't
| "result in property" unless you also apply coercion to
| exclude others from them.
|
| (Seems like a pointless word game you're trying to play
| here.)
| 9873259735609 wrote:
| I'm not advocating for property rights over natural
| resources. I'm advocating for property rights over
| artificial objects created by labour applied to natural
| resources.
| gus_massa wrote:
| I want to build a table, so I chomp a tree. You want to
| build a chair, and you chomp another tree. I want to
| build another table, so I must walk a longer distance to
| find a tree. If everyone cut trees, it will get harder to
| find one.
|
| Another person want to build a music instrument. He need
| some special kind of tree, with some specific size and
| age, so he want all of us to not cut _that_ tree. Does he
| make a fence to protect the tree while it 's growing?
| Does he hire a bodyguard for the tree?
|
| Hunter-gathering is coercion-free unless someone other
| group want hunter-gathering in the same place. An once
| farmer arrive, it gets more complicated.
| 9873259735609 wrote:
| > I want to build a table, so I chomp a tree. You want to
| build a chair, and you chomp another tree. I want to
| build another table, so I must walk a longer distance to
| find a tree. If everyone cut trees, it will get harder to
| find one.
|
| No coercion here. There is no force or threats of
| violence involved in these scenarios. Imposing a negative
| externality on someone is not necessarily coercion.
|
| > Another person want to build a music instrument. He
| need some special kind of tree, with some specific size
| and age, so he want all of us to not cut that tree. Does
| he make a fence to protect the tree while it's growing?
| Does he hire a bodyguard for the tree?
|
| That would likely be coercion. Unless he planted the
| tree, or acquired it by consensual means from its
| previous owner, he doesn't have any more right to the
| tree than anyone else. Although, I don't think it would
| be as bad as if he had taken the tree from someone who
| had already cut it down because in that case he would
| have deprived them of the product of the labour that went
| into cutting the tree down as well.
| maxerickson wrote:
| The claim that the act of creation gives you exclusive
| rights can be coercion in a value system that doesn't
| care about the act of creation (or just cares less about
| it than things like mutual agreement about what to do
| with the commons).
| 9873259735609 wrote:
| I think it's self-evident that a person should not be
| deprived of what they create without their consent. I'm
| not sure what you mean by "mutual agreement", but I
| assume you don't mean that literally, as there would be
| no conflict and no need for any kind of ethical theory in
| a situation where everyone agrees.
| maxerickson wrote:
| That's what I'm trying to get at, those things aren't
| self evident, they are a value system.
| didibus wrote:
| Property is enforced by the government and its social
| contract exactly the same way that taxation is.
|
| You didn't actually agree in a mutual contract with
| everyone when you "traded" your property, except for the
| agreements the government upholds with its system of laws
| that forms the social contract and taxation is a clause
| in that contract.
| maxerickson wrote:
| My point is that it's perfectly valid to argue that
| ownership itself is coercive.
| surement wrote:
| I don't think you understand what coercive means
| buttercraft wrote:
| If multiple people want to own the same thing, how do
| they "decide" who gets it?
| px43 wrote:
| > With that being said, the US already spends more on public
| healthcare than Canada does
|
| That's because it's mostly all going to predatory insurance
| and drug companies rather than to doctors and other medical
| professionals. Universal healthcare cuts out all the needless
| middlemen and and incentivizes governments to put reasonable
| caps on the profits of drug companies.
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