[HN Gopher] Lucid recalls all of its 2022 Air EVs
___________________________________________________________________
Lucid recalls all of its 2022 Air EVs
Author : prostoalex
Score : 73 points
Date : 2022-05-26 00:35 UTC (22 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.engadget.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.engadget.com)
| Yhippa wrote:
| Move fast and break things?
| xeromal wrote:
| I don't think it's feasible to build something as large as a
| new car manufacturer and not have issues. They're too huge.
| It's like trying to recreate a search engine from scratch and
| not have bugs while also having a limited runway to hit
| critical mass and not go bankrupt.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| It's unfortunate since Lucid was supposed to be "Tesla, but with
| adults in the room" and so far.. this is actually their second
| full production recall.
|
| A few months ago they recalled ~500 vehicles which at the time
| was basically all they had made, for a serious suspension issue.
| Yes, again, only a small % actually had the defect, but they were
| all recalled in for inspection.
|
| I really really want Lucid to succeed, as a 2018 Model 3 owner,
| the Lucid Air is a more interesting upgrade to me than a Model
| S/X.. with the stalkless yoke, crazy acceleration but
| underpowered brakes, etc.
|
| However I do not want to be an alpha tester at this price point,
| and am not going to be a buyer until theres a service center a
| reasonable distance, and 1000s of cars on the road. Lucid is
| still publicly stating a now reduced target of 12-14k 2022
| deliveries, but we are 5 months into the year and they have maybe
| delivered 2k at best. They'll be lucky if they deliver half their
| goal.
|
| They can probably flounder for a while given the level of Saudi
| funding, much like Rivian can with the Amazon funding..
|
| At the $100k price range the MB EQS or Porsche Taycan are pretty
| cool, but hard to get hold of.. and you are back dealing the the
| old boys network of dealers. Lots of stories of people being
| asked to pay 5-figure dealer markups since they know they can get
| away with it.
|
| The sweet spot might be the Genesis GV60 which is basically a
| luxxed up Ioniq 5 with every luxury feature you could imagine
| thrown in, instead of offered as $1-2k options each. While the
| Koreans are trying to sell the US on the concept of a luxury
| Korean vehicle, they are basically throwing the kitchen sink of
| features in. Stuff like Active Noise Cancellation, Vehicle to
| Load charging, all the fancy drivers aids, maximally
| adjustable/heated/cooled seats...
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| What is the charger network like for non-Teslas in the US, and
| how do the ranges realistically compare?
| rootusrootus wrote:
| The Tesla network is still better, but the non-Tesla network
| is adequate and growing faster. There have been teething
| problems on the chargers, but it seems like that has improved
| over time.
|
| A number of EVs have similar range to Teslas. Some of the
| older ones that began life as compliance cars are a little
| low. But even a Bolt, which basically costs half what a Tesla
| does, has about 260 miles range. Though in my experience the
| Bolt more often estimates range accurately where my Tesla
| consistently overestimated range by a good margin (I had a
| P3D, which is likely most of the reason why).
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Yup. Depends on region. In NYC area, Tesla supercharger
| network still has more locations and way more chargers per
| location than the CCS networks. Further, Tesla continues to
| expand as fast or faster than EA's CCS network.
|
| Range is funny because Tesla on paper is the best, but in
| reality they tend to overstate by 10-20% whereas some other
| makers understate by 20%.
|
| So for example many have seen a 220mi Taycan and a 310mi
| Model 3 get the same range in real world.
|
| You really have to read a range of websites tests between
| models to compare.
|
| Another interesting facet will be how the batteries age.
| Some early EVs didn't cool their packs well and degraded
| fast. Some makers sort of overprovision their packs with
| capacity you can't use, in theory if that is released by
| software as you age then the impact is lower.
|
| For example on a Tesla you are likely to see 2-3% loss per
| year. That means a 2018 310mi Model 3 now only charges to a
| claimed 280mi. Then detract 15% for real world use since
| they overpromise, bad weather impacts, only wanting to
| charge to 80/90%, only wanting to go down to say 5-10%..
| and you are probably stopping every 180mi.
| fossuser wrote:
| I have a 2018 model 3 with 35k miles and capacity is at
| 300mi fully charged. At least that one data point is
| better than what you suggest.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Mine only charges to 280mi now and I am at way fewer
| miles, so YMMV. I think its region dependent, maybe my
| car got more hot/cold cycles, etc being parked outdoors
| in NYC for years.
| fossuser wrote:
| Yeah, mine was in ideal conditions (bay area, garage) so
| that could definitely be a factor.
| rasz wrote:
| >taycan
|
| Porsche already had 9 recalls for things like suspension,
| brakes, lights, full power loss, then there is this:
|
| ""Six out of ten Porsche Taycan" ever delivered have a problem
| with battery management that affects and damages battery cells,
| requires replacement of cells and batteries, and is causing
| vehicle fires, according to a source working at Porsche's
| headquarters in Zuffenhausen, Germany.Dec 1, 2021"
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Yes but a Porsche/MB/Tesla recall is me taking my car to a
| shop within 30min or less of my home (or in Tesla case,
| mobile tech comes to me most often).
|
| With Lucid, it's still unclear they even have a service
| center anywhere on the east coast yet. There are 2 scheduled
| for northeast in "summer" and "fall".
|
| Lucid & Rivian have still delivered something like 10-15 cars
| in all of NY state vs 600+ Taycans (who yes has had a multi-
| year head start on sales and decades head start on service
| network).
| toddmorey wrote:
| Tesla went through the same exact phase, relying mostly on
| mobile technicians where possible. Some Tesla owners were
| without their cars for months waiting on available service
| capacity and parts.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Yes that's kind of my point through the thread. If people
| point to Tesla's service as inadequate in 2020-2022,
| imagine how it was in 2015.. and you have Lucid/Rivian.
| [deleted]
| nilsbunger wrote:
| These seem like normal growing pains for a new car company.
| It's a brutal learning curve!
|
| They just have to make it through this curve before running out
| of money and positive brand association.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| 100% - I want Lucid & Rivian to succeed, I just don't want to
| spend 80-150K to be their beta tester. People vastly under
| estimate how hard scaling is. Tesla was producing ~5-10K cars
| for many years before they hit the 100K level with the Model
| 3. It could be 5 years for Lucid & Rivian to become regularly
| available, serviceable car brands like Tesla just started to
| become in say 2019 or so.
|
| I personally don't think anyone should be taking on a loan /
| spending any large % of their income buying from them and
| planning for them to be your primary vehicle. They are
| sufficiently low volume & high risk to remain rich man toys
| for a while!
|
| Even when I bought in 2018 it felt a bit unsteady, with
| plenty of valid rumors they were going to fold.. including
| Musk later saying they were days away from bankruptcy during
| the Model 3 ramp up!
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| In fairness, Tesla had to solve all of the hard problems
| from scratch. They paved the way for other EV
| manufacturers, so those other manufacturers _should_ have
| an easier time.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| The crazy thing is that Lucid & Rivian were only founded
| a few years after Tesla..
|
| So while in theory it should be easier now, I don't think
| it has been in practice
| beambot wrote:
| Exactly. It's played out at virtually every EV manufacturer,
| regardless of their experience. General Motors, for example:
|
| _GM advising some Bolt EV owners to park 50 feet away from
| other cars in case of fire_
|
| https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/15/gm-advising-some-bolt-ev-
| own...
|
| People love to dig on Tesla, but they're through the gauntlet
| & emerging out the other side -- easily a multi-year
| headstart. Everyone else still has a lot of pain to endure...
| chipsa wrote:
| The Bolt recall isn't a GM issue, it's a LG battery issue.
| Which... GM isn't the only company using LG batteries. The
| Hyundai Kona, for example, got hit with a similar recall.
| Ditto the Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid. Ditto some home
| batteries. I'd be unsurprised if Ford has to do one for the
| Mach-E.
| beambot wrote:
| Many components of the traditional automakers' vehicles
| are outsourced to common suppliers. That doesn't give
| them a free pass when the vehicle doesn't perform as
| desired -- it's a product defect regardless of which
| supplier owns the root cause.
| bdcravens wrote:
| > you are back dealing the the old boys network of dealers.
|
| We are still toward the end of the early adoption phase, but in
| the long run, the established brands is where EVs take hold. In
| 5 years everyone will be able to roll up to that network and
| drive home in an EV the same day, if not sooner, and take
| advantage of that network for service, etc.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Exactly this. As much as people bitch about dealerships, and
| some of them truly do suck, the business model is well
| established and clearly successful. The newer EV startups are
| just converging on having the same model by a different name.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| It's great to have a service network. It sucks having to
| haggle with these clowns when buying a car. Direct sales
| you get price transparency. Even dealers showing inventory
| online neglect to mention that they want a $10K ADM until
| you try to buy the thing in person. Or only if you buy $5K
| in accessories. Or only if you finance. Or only if you get
| some BS extended warranty/service contract, etc
| gopalv wrote:
| > As much as people bitch about dealerships, and some of
| them truly do suck, the business model is well established
| and clearly successful.
|
| So the Lindy effect sort of suggests the dealerships will
| be around for a while - but the real revenue model of a
| dealership is the return customer for services.
|
| The main change with EVs is unpredictable on that side -
| one, they don't need a lot of periodic maintenance (like
| regen cuts brake wear for highway driving), but on the
| other hand there are almost no user-serviceable EVs & I
| doubt there will be any in the near future.
|
| So I wish the dealership model goes the way of the travel
| agent one. It's not that travel agents weren't useful or
| successful, but that without one more people bought tickets
| and flew to places.
|
| From that PoV, I think the model might converge closer to
| Carvana or Shift rather than a traditional dealership with
| loaned inventory (or Roadster.com). Especially when the car
| I want to buy is actually in Sacramento and only needs to
| be on a truck to a city when I want it.
| ahmedalsudani wrote:
| Making cars is very hard--cut them some slack.
|
| This is not a great time to buy any efficient car. Things were
| easing until gas prices jumped up ... and the recent lockdowns
| in China probably haven't helped.
|
| It's a good idea to wait for a more opportune time if you can.
| nomel wrote:
| > This is not a great time to buy any efficient car.
|
| If you're not limited to luxury, there are plenty of options.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| It is very hard, and theres a different between cutting them
| slack and writing them a $150K check :-) !
|
| It's not entirely clear they are going to ramp up faster or
| better than Tesla.
|
| There are already credible leaks that they have followed some
| of the Tesla playbook - running out to Home Depot for "parts"
| and enlisting white collar office staff for help in final
| assembly..
| jszymborski wrote:
| There being recalls kinda feels like it lends credence to the
| 'Tesla but with adults in the room' sentiment.
|
| Consumer EVs are still an emerging technology relative to
| combustion vehicles, and so you're bound to be an "alpha" or
| "beta" tester to some degree. I would hope, however, that the
| attitude towards defects would be to identify them as such and
| recall rather than slapping a #WONTFIX on it which I feel is
| what I hear often from Tesla owners.
| msmenardi wrote:
| Especially considering all the problems Teslas have been
| having. Seems like every week I read about someone being
| locked in a burning car or the autopilot driving into a pile
| of schoolchildren or something.
| [deleted]
| pmcollins wrote:
| seems like every week i read about <wild unsubstantiated
| claim> or <wild unsubstantiated claim> or something.
|
| -new account with zero karma
|
| if you're a paid astroturfer you need to up your game.
| jquery wrote:
| I'd give them a chance. Then doing a full recall is the
| responsible move and in the long run should establish
| confidence. I doubt Tesla would have done a full recall for
| something as "trivial" as the displays sometimes failing. In
| fact I'm pretty sure Elon knew this was a problem with Teslas
| from the get-go (the displays were not up to spec) and shipped
| the cars anyway and made everyone sign an NDA who had an issue.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| I think the precariousness of Tesla, horrible service
| network, and months wait times on repair parts well into the
| 2019-2020 pre-pandemic time frame should chasten anyone who
| wants to buy an EV from an even smaller firm who are 5-8
| years behind Tesla on the growth curve!
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| What's the deal with the service network? I've only had
| good experiences. In one instance they sent a tech out in a
| service vehicle and in other cases they either gave me a
| loaner or a $100 Uber voucher (due to the pandemic parts
| shortage, my car shipped without some non-essential
| components--it was that or wait until they had the parts
| before accepting delivery).
| steveBK123 wrote:
| It's hit or miss. Mobile techs coming to replace small
| things like filters/charge ports/etc are great if you are
| in range.
|
| If you have an accident and are waiting months on a body
| panel - not great. In this case your insurance probably
| helps with a rental.
|
| On other warranty type service, being stuck with $100/day
| Uber credits for a week or two since its near impossible
| to secure a loaner at the NYC area service centers sucks
| if you bought a car because you wanted a car, not an
| Uber. I went into service center in 2018 for an annoying
| rattle on delivery, ~2019 rear motor go out, and ~2020
| HW3 upgrade. Mobile techs did a 2020 charge port repair
| and 2021 air filter replace/duct cleaning.
|
| I do have some glass work I've been sitting on since 2021
| because I don't want to deal with being carless for a
| couple days.
|
| So lower maintenance than an ICE, but in under 4 years I
| have have 5-6 service interactions of which 2 were show
| stoppers.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| That makes sense. I've always had same-day fixes, but
| that's because I never had a critical failure (so I could
| come in when they had parts on hand).
| kposehn wrote:
| I have an Air GT and received the notification already. I've
| driven my car >1600 miles in only a few weeks of ownership and
| can vouch for the quality. It is vastly better put together than
| you would expect for an EV startup and is an absolute joy to
| drive.
|
| As for the news, car companies have recalls and Lucid is no
| exception. The wiring harness in the dash needs a few zip ties if
| the issue is present and takes 10-15min to check for. Service has
| been great and they're going to check it tomorrow - so far only a
| few cars have needed it.
| xeromal wrote:
| What kind of range are you getting? I have a model S and I'm
| looking to change it out soon.
| kposehn wrote:
| I'm charging to ~80% daily, a fairly spirited driver, and
| running on the 19" wheels. So far my typical usage gets
| 3.7mi/kWh and if I dial it back a ways I can get over 4.3
| (that isn't my common usage though). That translates to
| _~414mi per full charge in daily use and ~483 if I baby it_.
|
| I highly recommend the Lucid over the Model S if you value
| driving enjoyment, space, luxury and range over the
| supercharger convenience and tesla UX. The Lucid is a vastly
| superior platform over the Tesla, but has a lot of catching
| up to do from a software standpoint (though to be fair,
| they're improving very fast).
|
| As for the other options in the segment, the EQS is very
| plush but the brakes are atrocious and the ride is nowhere
| near what it should be. The Taycan is a hell of a sports car,
| but super small inside and has very short range.
|
| Each has its advantages and drawbacks, but imho the Lucid
| strikes a very good balance of them all with very few
| shortcomings.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| Hard to tell if this is a more significant recall than other
| cars. How comparable is it to normal ICE recalls?
| user_7832 wrote:
| Slightly tangential to the recall itself, but why would someone
| build a car company from scratch? It sounds like quite an arduous
| thing due to how complex cars are, and how heavy regulations and
| testing is. I would think collaborating with existing companies
| may be much easier (asking partly as someone curious why Lucid
| went that way, but also as someone who wants to start their own
| auto co in the future.)
| ModernMech wrote:
| "No one gets it on the first try"
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW5cB2UWTX0
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| I've been a Tesla owner for a couple of years and I am anxious to
| sell it. I no longer want to be associated with that company.
|
| I've had my eyes on the Lucid Air Touring as my next car, but
| stuff like this doesn't instill confidence. The absolute disaster
| that is Tesla's build quality and servicing is one of the reasons
| I'm switching in the first place!
|
| The whole EV market is a disaster right now. If you want an EV
| from a "mainstream" manufacturer, be prepared to pay enormous
| dealer markups and be bullied into upgrades.
|
| I hate it.
| kposehn wrote:
| I can vouch for the Lucid being excellent and I'd say the
| touring is the pick of the range. If you want to switch away
| from Tesla it is an excellent option, as is the Polestar (if
| you don't need the same mix of range/performance/space as the
| Lucid).
| binkHN wrote:
| > I've been a Tesla owner for a couple of years and I am
| anxious to sell it. I no longer want to be associated with that
| company.
|
| Why?
| pryelluw wrote:
| I just bought a new Camry hybrid. Gives me 60+ total mpg
| without any fuss. I'm learning how to drive it to maximize
| electric use.
|
| My first pick was a Prius prime but those were on a huge back
| order. Having a 25 mile electric range is perfect for us.
| innocentoldguy wrote:
| Can you actually use just the electric? I owned a 2016 Toyota
| Avalon hybrid that had the option to be electric only, but
| whenever I tried to engage that option, it gave me an error
| that I was either going too fast or too slow. I could get it
| to work for very short stretches (maybe 50 feet), but it
| would always disengage almost as soon as I turned it on. This
| was the biggest reason I sold the car.
| kube-system wrote:
| Toyota hybrids are fairly parallel in their designed
| operation. However, you should have been able to get that
| Avalon up to ~47mph on electric alone with a (very) light
| foot, no grade, and a full battery. It doesn't really
| matter though, Toyota hybrids are always using the electric
| motors to do part of the work even when the engine is on.
| EV mode is more of a psychological thing in hybrid cars, it
| isn't more efficient. (If anything it's less efficient) If
| you want to operate in EV in broad circumstances, you are
| looking for a plug-in hybrid.
| bombcar wrote:
| I wonder if any of the plug-in hybrids have some form of
| "going home" mode where they try to arrive home with a
| nearly empty battery.
| kube-system wrote:
| Just put it in EV mode when you leave the house, and once
| again when you're coming up your street on the way back.
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| A Camry is not an EV and I have no interest in burning
| fossils ever again.
|
| Edit: I can't reply to comments under this, I don't know why,
| so let me just add here: Yes, I know that the manufacture of
| any vehicle produces unwanted byproducts. That doesn't mean
| they're all equally bad. My electricity comes from completely
| renewable sources, and none of my money goes to the oil
| industry. Those issues are important _to me_. I don 't need
| lecturing on how I've got it all wrong.
| sebmellen wrote:
| Unfortunately many fossils will be burnt in the production
| of any EV, the shipping of it, and (most likely) the fuel
| used to power it.
|
| Don't get me wrong, EVs are great (my parents own two that
| run off-grid on solar), but the absolutist mentality of a
| lot of the EV community about "fossil fuels" is
| counterproductive.
|
| We should be encouraging as many realistic countermeasures
| as we can -- priuses, EVs, hydrogen, hybrids, whatever! The
| less fossil fuels being burned the better!!!
| pengaru wrote:
| It's not exactly unreasonable to be absolutist about the
| fossil fuel burners you actually have control over, and
| the technology really has gotten to where you no longer
| need to ever use things like gas powered lawn mowers weed
| wackers chain saws cars motorcycles etc. It's not harmful
| to choose in electric form in an absolutist manner, if
| you _must_ have those things at all.
| dymk wrote:
| Hydrogen cars will require fossil fuels to be
| manufactured, same with hybrids. EVs have a smaller
| carbon footprint than both over their lifetime.
|
| No duh, current manufacturing is done with fossil fuels.
| Everybody knows that. So what's the point of a comment
| like this, other than to downplay how important EVs are
| going to be at solving the climate crisis?
| TheSpiceIsLife wrote:
| Click on the time stamp of the comment you want to reply to
| and you should be able to reply, unless you've been
| recently rate limited.
| gameswithgo wrote:
| driving a non plug in hybrid to maximize electric use is not
| the goal, the goal is to minimize fuel use. The former is at
| odds with the latter.
| roseway4 wrote:
| I'm surprised Polestar hasn't been mentioned. While not
| mainstream--yet--the PS2 is a great car. We definitely had
| teething issues (software mostly) with the Launch Edition, but
| Polestar's Android Automative implementation has got more solid
| in the last year.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| Polestar and Volvo both have excellent EVs. Audi's e-tron
| models, ditto. The EQS, same.
|
| BMW's i4 and iX just came out, both of which appear to blow
| Tesla out of the fucking water.
|
| Hyundai's Ioniq 5, so far getting rave reviews from owners
| that match the press.
|
| The Ford Mach-E is having a bit of teething issues reportedly
| (cooling related, I think?) but I see them all over the
| place.
|
| The Ford Lightning has sold out _several years_ worth of
| production.
|
| GM has the Ultium platform in production (Hummer) which will
| soon serve as the base for a number of models. The Equinox EV
| is in testing and everyone's guess is that they will sell
| better than hotcakes unless GM manages to fuck it up.
| Hopefully they call all the "fuck it up" out of their system
| with the Bolt.
|
| VW right now is trailing the pack. The IQ4 by all accounts
| was a huge swing and a miss, which is inexcusable coming from
| one of the world's largest car companies. They tried to "re-
| imagine" "the car" on a basic level and failed miserably. For
| example: it automatically turns on/off. No power/start
| switch. Just get in, use the "gear" selector, and drive.
| Ditto for stoping. Sounds great, right? Except if you come
| out of the driver's seat for even a second (as is common when
| backing up) the car thinks you're "leaving" and almost
| immediately shuts itself off. Then they had to go and
| infantilize the climate control system. I wish I were joking
| when you tap a "I'm cold" button or "I can't see out the
| windshield" to get things to happen. Apparently VW's IQ team
| thinks people are absolute imbeciles.
| cobalt wrote:
| blow tesla out of the water how? also telsas have the same
| (similar?) keyless/buttonless system as the VW (though it
| just parks, doesn't shut off the car)
| bdcravens wrote:
| Every review of the i4 says that it has the fit and
| finish that you expect with a BMW. Obviously there are
| other criteria that matter, like range, etc, that Tesla
| is still in the lead. However the compromises you may
| need to make with the a Tesla are becoming less tolerable
| as you see more options in the market. Tesla's lead will
| not hold.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| I would take those reviews with a big grain of salt;
| those reviewers are in tight with legacy auto
| manufacturers (I forget which, but one of the big auto
| magazines didn't even include Tesla in their rankings for
| top 2022 EVs).
|
| Also, surely "range" is one of _the_ dominating factors
| in purchasing an EV, right? I 'll tolerate some fit and
| finish issues so long as I don't have to stop to charge
| every hour (assuming I can even find a charger).
|
| I believe other auto manufacturers will eventually catch
| up, but not until they catch up on range and charging
| network.
| gamblor956 wrote:
| _Also, surely "range" is one of the dominating factors in
| purchasing an EV, right? I'll tolerate some fit and
| finish issues so long as I don't have to stop to charge
| every hour (assuming I can even find a charger)._
|
| No, for the same reason that "size of gas tank" isn't a
| dominant factor in purchasing an ICE vehicle. Modern EVs
| don't need to be charged every hour, unless you're
| planning on getting the Hummer EV.
|
| Tesla does have a superior charging network. However,
| several other cars have better range than Tesla.
| bdcravens wrote:
| Range is important, but the differences diminish once we
| get above 250 or 300 miles. Especially for what may be
| typical, where you charge nightly at home. Those who
| regularly drive for a living may have a different
| perspective.
|
| Looking past reviews and whatnot, I can't ignore some of
| the bigger safety concerns, like randomly catching on
| fire. An extra 20 or 30 miles of range is irrelevant in
| that case. (to be fair, maybe that's a general EV issue,
| and Tesla is known only because of the volume of that
| market they own)
| bdcravens wrote:
| Many of those same sites rank Tesla highly as well.
| Knowing how Tesla uses NDAs as a tool, I wouldn't be
| surprised if there's gaming there as well.
| gnicholas wrote:
| > _Also, surely "range" is one of the dominating factors
| in purchasing an EV, right?_
|
| Definitely true when the range was around 100 or 150
| miles. Less true when the range is closer to 300.
|
| > _I 'll tolerate some fit and finish issues so long as I
| don't have to stop to charge every hour (assuming I can
| even find a charger)._
|
| Are there any Tesla competitors that have so little range
| that they need to be charged every hour?
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| > Definitely true when the range was around 100 or 150
| miles. Less true when the range is closer to 300.
|
| 300 rated miles is closer to 200 actual miles when you
| account for cold weather, head winds, and not charging to
| 100% at each station along the route (usually you only
| charge to ~60-80%). If you're only driving around town,
| that's fine, but road trips are going to suck below 300
| (visiting family in another state during the holidays?)
| _especially_ if your charging network sucks (even on
| Tesla 's network there are some butt-clenching
| stretches).
|
| > Are there any Tesla competitors that have so little
| range that they need to be charged every hour?
|
| I'm pretty sure my Model Y needs to be charged every
| couple of hours of highway driving in the winter (maybe
| even less? I'm not sure) and its rated for ~320 miles.
| Based on that, I would guess that some of the 200-250
| rated cars are coming in pretty close to charging every
| hour. Whether it's an hour or an hour and twenty minutes,
| I'm not interested.
| gnicholas wrote:
| Sure, I get that winter affects things -- I wasn't
| referring to the worst-case scenario for charging. People
| who road-trip in cold weather (and don't have a second
| vehicle) will continue to care about max range for longer
| than other folks. In warmer parts of the country/world, I
| think range anxiety/concern will tail off pretty soon.
|
| There are other valid concerns of course; where I live,
| issues with the electric grid make it dicey to have only
| EVs.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| > In warmer parts of the country/world, I think range
| anxiety/concern will tail off pretty soon.
|
| Even the warmer parts of the country get pretty cold (it
| was 20 degrees all over the southwest when I roadtripped
| in January). If you live near a coast maybe it's mild
| enough that you won't notice it. I'll hazard a (probably
| ignorant) guess, but I would think most of the reliably-
| warm world is either too poor for an EV or they don't
| have reliable electricity or both.
| eptcyka wrote:
| I'm pretty sure all of those cars are far less efficient in
| the miles per kwh sense than their tesla counterparts.
| Which is a shame.
| zelos wrote:
| It does look like the Model 3 has a decent lead in
| efficiency:
|
| https://ev-database.uk/compare/efficiency-electric-
| vehicle-m...
| pkulak wrote:
| Probably not BMW. They actually beat Tesla to market with
| high-efficiency, switched-reluctance designs (someone
| please correct me if I'm wrong here, I think that's what
| the tech is called), and have an uncanny ability to
| design low coefficients of drag.
| tapoxi wrote:
| I have an ID4 and I've had a great experience with it. The
| car only thinks you're leaving if your butt is off the seat
| _and_ the driver side door is open. With the climate
| controls, there is a 'smart climate' and a 'classic
| climate' view. The 'smart climate' options aren't as bad as
| you suggest either.
|
| My only real gripes with it are the laggy infotainment
| system and meh mobile app.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| > BMW's i4 and iX just came out, both of which appear to
| blow Tesla out of the fucking water.
|
| In what sense does it blow Tesla out of the water? A Model
| 3 gets 334 miles of range and it MSRPs at $49K--the most
| you can get out of BMW seems to be 315 and it costs almost
| double.
|
| > The Ford Lightning has sold out several years worth of
| production.
|
| That only speaks to Ford's marketing.
|
| > GM has the Ultium platform in production (Hummer) which
| will soon serve as the base for a number of models.
|
| Personally I'm not keen on a 9klb car.
|
| > Just get in, use the "gear" selector, and drive.
|
| Tesla has had that for a while now, and it works pretty
| well. I'm not sure why you'd "come out of the driver's
| seat" while backing up, but my Tesla doesn't shut off.
|
| > Then they had to go and infantilize the climate control
| system. I wish I were joking when you tap a "I'm cold"
| button or "I can't see out the windshield" to get things to
| happen. Apparently VW's IQ team thinks people are absolute
| imbeciles.
|
| Tesla probably beats them for the stupidest climate control
| system. If anyone in the car wants to adjust their seat
| heaters, it automatically turns on the heat or A/C, so you
| have to open up the climate control menu (which
| automatically turns on heat or A/C), adjust seat heaters,
| turn off the heat/AC, and then close the menu.
|
| Similarly, the defrost buttons always turn the fan up to
| the max (and you can't turn it back down) and they also
| turn up either heat or AC to the max as well. So you're
| getting blasted in the face with either super hot air or
| super cold air, so in practice you toggle it on until
| you're uncomfortable, then turn it off, then wait for the
| windshield to fog up again, and repeat.
|
| As if that weren't enough, there's no way to tell it to
| warm up or cool down, you have to set the exact
| temperature. So I guess you're supposed to carry a
| thermostat with you so you know what temperature it is
| currently, and then you can turn on your climate control
| and tell Tesla to make it a little warmer or colder.
| Kirby64 wrote:
| To your point on the Model 3, I think you forgot to
| unselect the 'including incentives' button on the Model
| 3. The actual MSRP for the 356 mi (not 334, 334 is with
| the 19" wheels) Model 3 is $56k.
|
| In comparison, the i4 is 55k MSRP for the base one,
| certain not double the price (at least, at MSRP).
|
| That said, I see some things I see as important
| differences at those MSRP points:
|
| * Model 3 has their basic autopilot included in that
| price. BMW for adaptive cruise features and parking adds
| another $2400. Also, BMW assistant seems much, much more
| limited than the Tesla system based on the description.
|
| * Model 3 includes their 'premium' audio, that's another
| $875 from BMW.
|
| * Model 3 includes heated seats/steering wheel, lumbar
| support, etc. That's a $950 add-on from BMW.
|
| * BMW offers ventilated front seats, which is not offered
| by Tesla on the Model 3; that said, it's a $350 option.
| plus requires the $1.5k leather option as well.
|
| * Model 3 is AWD. BMW is RWD only. AWD only comes on the
| m50 model, which also has lower range (and more expensive
| by 10k)
|
| * Model 3 is much faster (5.4 for BMW, 4.2 for Tesla)
|
| * BMW allows 4 different synthetic color choices for
| free. Model 3 non-black (white) is a $1000. BMW also
| offers leather colorways for $1500
|
| * BMW offers dash trim options for free. Tesla one is
| tied to their seat color choice
|
| * Fancy headlights are $1000 extra from BMW. Standard
| with a Tesla
|
| * "Drive recorder" is $100 from BMW. Free w/ Tesla
|
| Some of those are pretty substantial differences, and may
| be another $5k on top. That's also not counting any
| potential dealer markups that might be in place.
|
| You can argue about BMW vs Tesla quality, but if you're
| purely talking feature-set, Tesla seems to be winning
| handily. That said, there are certain things that may be
| really important to a BMW buyer (colorways,
| customization) that just are not offered by Tesla and
| could be a deal-breaker.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| > To your point on the Model 3, I think you forgot to
| unselect the 'including incentives' button on the Model
| 3. The actual MSRP for the 356 mi (not 334, 334 is with
| the 19" wheels) Model 3 is $56k.
|
| You're correct, I did forget to unselect that option.
|
| > In comparison, the i4 is 55k MSRP for the base one,
| certain not double the price (at least, at MSRP).
|
| The i4 gets less range. The max range option is the iX,
| and that only gets 315.
|
| Your options comparison was interesting, although I don't
| much like adaptive cruise control or lane assist on my
| model Y (phantom braking) and would pay more to have a
| standard cruise control option--it's pretty nice that BWM
| offers it for free!
| WorldMaker wrote:
| I have wanted to test drive a Polestar 2, but of course you
| can't just go to any Volvo dealership to do that and the
| nearest Polestar dealership to me is at least 6 hours away
| (which seems a bit much for just a test drive).
|
| I guess Geely and the Volvo Car Group is hoping to sink the
| Volvo badge because presumably they have to cross-license
| with the original Volvo Automotive Group (now entirely
| focused on trucking)? The Volvo/Polestar switch/split seems
| goofy/weird and doesn't give a lot of confidence in either
| brand right now, in addition to over-complicating the
| dealership networks.
| kposehn wrote:
| I'm with you there. The Polestar 2 is an absolutely excellent
| competitor to the Model 3, along with the Ioniq 5 and EV6. In
| my testing I found the PS2 to be more fun than the others and
| vastly more comfortable than a Model 3, but less practical
| than the Ioniq 5 or EV6 due to using an adapted platform
| instead of bespoke. That said, if you don't need a ton of
| range or room the Polestar is a total blast in the dual motor
| trim! I was seriously tempted by it.
| xiphias2 wrote:
| EVs are not yet competitive with gas cars, as battery
| manufacturing needs more ramp up / development to mature. Every
| company is forced to take shortcuts with EVs right now, and it
| will be like this for a few years, but I expect the shortcuts
| to decrease over time.
| uejfiweun wrote:
| The whole entire car market is a disaster. Used car prices are
| still insane and non-EV dealer markups are still insane.
| Moreover I've heard anecdotal reports of serious quality issues
| with most cars that were released during the pandemic. It
| really sucks.
| rwmurrayVT wrote:
| The company I worked for just released a new non-contact
| scanner with accuracy similar to a laser tracker. The only
| potential automotive companies that have expressed interest so
| far are EV only.
| Sohcahtoa82 wrote:
| > If you want an EV from a "mainstream" manufacturer, be
| prepared to pay enormous dealer markups and be bullied into
| upgrades.
|
| Tesla has plenty of things about them to criticize, but one
| thing they did well was the buying experience. They cut out all
| the bullshit that dealers put you through.
|
| It took me five minutes to purchase my car online. When
| delivery day came, just had to sign a couple DMV forms, add my
| phone as a key, and I was done.
|
| No bullshit upselling, no haggling on the price, just get
| online, fill out the forms, and done.
| danans wrote:
| VW and Ford dealers seem to be honoring MSRP with pre-ordered
| ID.4 and Mach-e, but you need to order and wait for delivery
| which takes up to 9 months right now. The cars are the lot
| today available to buy (often abandoned pre-orders but also
| dealer orders) are being marked up.
| kjksf wrote:
| > Ford dealers seem to be honoring MSRP with pre-ordered
| Mach-e
|
| That's, like, the opposite of truth. In other words: a lie.
|
| https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/ford-
| dealersh...
|
| Majority of dealerships will always act in their self-
| interest and therefore heavily mark-up cars that are in
| demand.
|
| Only dealership-free new entrants like Tesla / Rivian / Lucid
| have a single, no-haggling price.
| danans wrote:
| That's for cars on the lot. Your article says nothing about
| pre-ordered vehicles. The ID.4 I ordered is MSRP because
| ordered it months ago. Similar for a pre-ordered Mach E
| from people I know who have bought them that way lately.
|
| The dealer markup for cars on lot sucks, that much I agree
| with, and that's down to the power of traditional
| dealerships and and of course supply and demand.
| macintux wrote:
| It's generally unwise, and explicitly against the
| guidelines on this site, to call someone a liar.
| gamblor956 wrote:
| Ford cracked down on that practice months ago.
| (https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/ford-cracking-
| down-3-6..., https://www.msn.com/en-
| us/money/companies/ford-gm-are-cracki...)
| maverick2007 wrote:
| I can confirm that at least at my dealer. Just bought a Mach
| E this week that I ordered the first week of October of last
| year. Got it at the MSRP at the time of order, not purchase.
| The salesman was telling me that the guy he was helping
| before me took over an abandoned pre order and paid 10k of
| dealer markup for that privilege.
| assttoasstmgr wrote:
| Based on your comments, it sounds like you might be in the
| market for a Homer by Powell Motors.
| olyjohn wrote:
| I mean, the Hummer EV is basically the Canyonero.
| Sparkle-san wrote:
| Does it have Rack and Peanut steering?
| tclancy wrote:
| You gotta have excellent personal hygiene for one of those!
| reducesuffering wrote:
| > If you want an EV from a "mainstream" manufacturer, be
| prepared to pay enormous dealer markups
|
| Just a year ago people were getting GM/Chevy Bolt's out the
| door for $19k - $25k. Granted, those did have battery recalls.
| Might be worse price-wise now though as it looks like even 2
| years old ones are selling for more than that on my local
| craiglist.
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/BoltEV/comments/ms9qbp/2021_bolt_pr...
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/BoltEV/comments/lff7ff/a_data_point...
| sebmellen wrote:
| My father was once a car dealer and is a pro Long-Island
| style negotiator -- he walked out the door with a fully
| loaded Bolt for 22k in CA, about a year ago.
|
| The Chevy Bolt and Chevy Spark are great cars.
| nr2x wrote:
| I just sat my laptop on the counter and fact checked what
| they told me in real time, told them what I'd pay, and got
| a stellar deal.
| teaearlgraycold wrote:
| I got a Gen 2 Volt in late 2020 for $19k, low mileage and
| top trim. Great car that hasn't given me any trouble and
| more than takes care of my commute with its battery.
| nr2x wrote:
| I love driving my 22 Bolt but the battery is software capped
| at 80% capacity as a temporary fix and they cannot tell when
| I'll get a new battery. So I'd say get a Nissan Leaf and
| avoid Bolt until GM gets their shit together.
| spear wrote:
| A Bolt capped at 80% still has way more range than a Leaf
| and not much less range than a Leaf Plus.
| nr2x wrote:
| The low end Leaf costs much less, and I bought the Bolt
| for the greater range, which I don't have now. The
| extended range Leaf is what is I'd buy today. As an owner
| of a Bolt I think I have a fairly well informed opinion.
| chipsa wrote:
| Dealers can't sell new cars under recall. If they can sell
| you a new one, it's got a new battery and doesn't have the
| capacity cap.
| CHB0403085482 wrote:
| For those who haven't heard of the Lucid AIR EV
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxuB4H6uCq8
| travisporter wrote:
| Just make a ducking dumb electric car already! We don't need 4
| screens in every car. Mirrors, speedometer, battery gauge.
| CarPlay/android auto as an accessory.
|
| I will say that Kia niro ev came pretty close to this.
| assttoasstmgr wrote:
| So basically we need a mass produced equivalent of this:
|
| https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1134053_1978-ford-f-100-...
|
| I'm on board.
| jdhn wrote:
| I would trade in my Mustang for this and I'm not even a truck
| guy.
| cptskippy wrote:
| > Just make a ducking dumb electric car already! We don't need
| 4 screens in every car.
|
| The drive/power train are incredibly expensive and
| manufacturers are looking for ways to cut costs. The incumbents
| might be able to do save money by reusing components out of
| other cars but the reality is that all the little switches,
| knobs, levers, and such cost money.
|
| What Tesla did to reduce cost in the 3/Y was omit all the
| custom interfaces and inherit tooling costs, replacing it all
| with what's basically an Intel Atom based Tablet you can get
| from Best Buy for $100. This allowed them to use more premium
| materials to trim out the interior.
|
| Until they can bring down battery costs, we're probably going
| to see more of this.
| fignews wrote:
| Our Fiat 500e comes pretty close to this. One attractive LCD
| for the dash and besides that no fuss. No nav (up to 2016),
| etc. Very raw driving experience. Paid 8k for mine.
| r00fus wrote:
| My Ford Focus 2017 EV is awesome - a snappy sleeper vehicle
| that looks normal. 110mi range is usable since it supports DC
| Fast. CarPlay works great.
|
| Of course Ford cancelled the line in 2019.
| jseliger wrote:
| Reminds me of https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/05/want-a-
| small-affordable...
| sokoloff wrote:
| The electric Smarts fit this bill. Possibly related, they're no
| longer for sale new in the US.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| I have no idea why you're shouting at clouds about this in a
| discussion about a car targeting the mid-high luxury market.
| They're going after Model S and Mercedes EQS market share. The
| luxury market has gone toward using lots of screens. If you're
| not in the market for a $100,000 car, _this has no effect on,
| or relevancy to, you_.
|
| > I will say that Kia niro ev came pretty close to this.
|
| A friend has a Kia Niro and bought it specifically because of
| how loaded it was with features and gadgets for the price. It
| has a veritable sea of buttons on the wheel and center console,
| and two screens. _Come on, dude._
|
| If you want a basic EV, the Chevy Bolt is about the closest
| you'll likely get. With no options it'll come with very few
| "toys."
|
| The whole "why don't they make a very basic car" has been
| rehashed over and over here and elsewhere. There's no market.
| Most of the expense is in development, emissions, crash
| testing, and tooling - not tacking on bits and bobs. People
| want bits and bobs, which is why they pay lots of extra money
| for them.
|
| The whole "why touch screens" has been rehashed over and over
| as well. Touch screens are cheap to manufacture, can be heavily
| reused (Ford uses the same small handful of screens in a number
| of its vehicles for example), easily localized, and can be
| updated in functionality. Yes, they're terrible from a UX
| standpoint. Car companies don't care.
| travisporter wrote:
| You're right. I guess I'm just frustrated. Been waiting for
| an ev for four years. In my defense tho the niro screen is
| mostly for entertainment. I rented it for three days and only
| used screen mirroring/android car on it. I test drive the
| Tesla and I don't think you could get away with not touching
| the screen on a drive
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| I don't want a luxury car and I don't want a very basic car.
| I want something that exactly replicates the functionality of
| my 24-year-old Range Rover. No laser-eye-surgery-bright
| screens, no touch panels, no always-connected-phones-home
| telematics, just four big squashy seats, a really loud
| stereo, and the capability to be just as happy flat out on
| the motorway as climbing up a trackless mountain, pulling a
| 3.5 tonne trailer.
| teaearlgraycold wrote:
| One day we'll have a thriving EV upgrade market. Then you can
| take your old dumb car and drive out with a modern EV.
| Kirby64 wrote:
| It already exists, but the way combustion cars are built is
| just completely opposed to how you build an EV. You end up
| with a really crappy EV (specifically, in range) that still
| costs $20k+ now. In the future maybe that'll be $10k, but
| that's still a LOT to stomach for something that is going
| to underperform a dedicated EV.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| ID.1 probably going to be like that. The market for this is
| small and most people love smart features.
| WorldMaker wrote:
| It's just too bad the current assumption is that the ID.1
| will never be marketed in the US. VW is currently given the
| impression that nothing smaller than the ID.4 will likely
| ship to US dealers, which is a huge shame. I'd be somewhat
| tempted by an ID.3 right now. I'm extremely envious right now
| of all the small, basic European and Asian EVs that currently
| have no chance of being purchasable in the US.
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| This is the thing that puts me off Teslas (not that I'd waste
| 80 grand on a car anyway). How the hell are you meant to drive
| them at night with a massive floodlight shining in your face?
| skykooler wrote:
| I was going to suggest the Bollinger B1, but it's gone from
| Bollinger's website so I don't know whether it even exists
| anymore.
| myself248 wrote:
| Yeah, they pivoted to commercial truck chassis. My guess is
| after the F150 lightning was announced, large fractions of
| their consumer market share basically stampeded over yonder.
|
| That's a shame, because as you've pointed out, it was a
| perfect balance of a modern EV powertrain with classic simple
| function. For the dozens of us who'd prioritize that above
| all else, it was a perfect fit, but I don't think we're big
| enough market.
| windowsrookie wrote:
| The Nissan Leaf is exactly this and has been available for 11
| years.
| post_break wrote:
| And the battery packs degrade super fast. That car has a ton
| of issues.
| sokoloff wrote:
| It does have the worst battery degradation of all the EVs.
| Even with that, I'm very happy with mine (bought new in Dec
| 2014), but we have an ICE CR-V that we can use for any
| longer drives, making the LEAF excellent and our preference
| for around town driving.
| post_break wrote:
| That sounds like a great endorsement. The leaf EV, so
| good you'll need a second car.
| sokoloff wrote:
| We have two adult drivers and two cars. That's fairly
| typical, I think.
| laputan_machine wrote:
| For long drives of course you'll need an ICE car or be
| prepared to wait for charging. Come on. That's the norm
| for any EV right now.
| Sohcahtoa82 wrote:
| Define "long".
|
| In my experience, every ~2 hours of driving at 75 mph
| requires ~15 minutes of charging, so an 8 hour drive is 1
| hour of charging, and if you plan your charging stop(s)
| around meal time(s), then it adds almost no time at all.
|
| I drive from Portland, OR to Eugene, OR (About 110 miles)
| on a regular basis. I can make the round-trip without
| charging (barely), but I charge while I eat a quick
| dinner for the peace of mind.
|
| I've driven to Seattle and back twice. I eat lunch while
| charging in Lacey, WA.
|
| It's true that you'll want to plan your stops ahead of
| time during a road trip to minimize time spend only
| charging, whereas you can easily wing it in an ICE, but
| it's not too bad. You can use apps like A Better Route
| Planner to simplify it.
| post_break wrote:
| Long drives can be completed with electric cars now that
| they can charge much more quickly, something the Leaf
| cannot do.
| WorldMaker wrote:
| There is a switchover point in Leaf model years where they
| went to more active battery cooling and cars after that
| point are seeing a lot less degradation as we would all
| expect. It's relatively recent (like 2020 or 2021 model
| year) so it will take a while for the highly degraded Leafs
| to stop being a complaint of the used market. That said,
| even the most highly degraded Leafs have gone _to the used
| market_ for resale as cars. They are still plenty useful
| even with degraded ranges. Nissan expected more of the
| batteries to need recycling and /or move to secondary uses
| by now and so far the majority of batteries are still in
| primary use and the cars are defying that expectation and
| remaining cars actively on the road.
| JaggedJax wrote:
| I wish Nissan would step up their charging (and range) game.
| I get that it's not a long-range car, but being capped at
| 100kW fast charging means you'll never want to take the leaf
| further than a single charge can take it. Just improving that
| would make the Leaf a big winner.
| WorldMaker wrote:
| The Dacia Spring in Europe seems really interesting on this
| front: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vZWMcINhlw
|
| Unlikely to see a US relative anytime soon though.
| waiseristy wrote:
| Not surprising, wiring harnesses are incredibly difficult. The
| big OEM's still have issues with them.
|
| Also title is wrong, there is an update at the bottom of the
| article : > The recall applies to 1,117 vehicles that have been
| delivered to customers, and it is estimated that the defect is
| present on 1% of cars
| macintux wrote:
| The title is accurate: they're _all_ being recalled, but they
| estimate only 1% have the defect.
| waiseristy wrote:
| Oh whoops, should have realized that they have only shipped
| ~1k cars
| sp332 wrote:
| I wonder why the statement from Lucid conflicts with the math
| in the third paragraph.
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