[HN Gopher] Tell HN: Job interview canceled due to looming reces...
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Tell HN: Job interview canceled due to looming recession
I've been job hunting and I was going to get interviewed on Friday
for a SWE role at a small startup and today I received an email
from the PM canceling the interview and letting me know the company
has decided to stop the recruitment process for all roles due to
the markets situation. She also attached a tweet about a YC email
to all their founders, here's the link:
https://twitter.com/refsrc/status/1527238287471292417. I checked
the company webpage and in fact they have closed all the open
positions, there were like 6. From all the rejections I've got so
far this is the first time the reason is markets turmoil /
recession threat. To be honest is my first time job hunting since I
graduated in 2019. Screen shots: https://t.co/wSx5IR44nK Will be
this the situation for most tech companies or just start ups? I
know the unprofitable over valuated ones will most likely get rekt
first but I wanna know if during recessions recruiting slows down
even for big profitable companies. What companies or roles will be
more resilient? And how as a SWE / tech industry professional,
specially the ones starting their careers like me, can prepare? I
hope some experienced people in the industry can give some hope and
advice. Is demoralizing to find out I spent 4 years in school just
to get into a really harsh job market. First pandemic, then
recession? F...
Author : neoxone
Score : 171 points
Date : 2022-05-24 16:44 UTC (6 hours ago)
| andrew_ wrote:
| I give them some credit. Rather than hire you and have to
| unceremoniously lay you off six months from now, they're being
| proactive, upfront, and honest. Kudos to their hiring manager.
|
| Keep at it. Recruiters on LinkedIn are still foaming at the
| mouth.
| jp57 wrote:
| > I wanna know if during recessions recruiting slows down even
| for big profitable companies.
|
| Yes, and they might lay people off. Hiring slows generally (and
| unemployment rises) during recessions.
|
| For example, I was at Amazon in 2008-9 and their attitude was:
| "We think we'll be alright, but we're not taking any chances, so
| departments should expect to make due with their current staff
| for a while." Once the freeze was lifted we started hiring like
| crazy.
| soared wrote:
| I interviewed at Amazon a few months into Covid and they were
| interviewing but not hiring to put people in their "recycled"
| status. Which means we'll hire you but not in this exact role
| or this exact time.
| yuppie_scum wrote:
| I can say without hyperbole that this job market is still
| incredible compared to post 2008 recession times. Especially
| comparing apples to apples at the entry level.
|
| What you can do to prepare is just to keep getting better at the
| skills people are looking for.
| neoxone wrote:
| You are right, as codegeek commented this is a different time.
| I'll keep improving my skills and keep looking at the
| opportunities.
| ido wrote:
| Isn't it too early to tell? The crash is _very_ recent.
| athrowaway3z wrote:
| I like your optimism but what crash? Things might get much
| worse. Or not.
|
| There are many things happening at once.
|
| One that I think people are underestimating is baby boomer
| money. They are retired/retiring. It doesn't feel comfortable
| with the same risk that was acceptable in the last decade.
| That will suck at an unprecedented amount of liquidity from
| the system.
| donsupreme wrote:
| But that's precisely why the "correction" will have to be
| much steeper for Fed to rein in inflation. Fed cannot
| magically fix the supply side: they can't control Putin or
| lockdown in China. The only way to bring inflation way down
| is by dampening demand. To dampen demand Fed essentially
| would like see the stock market collapse, the extra
| liquidity that has been injected for the past 10 years need
| to be evaporated so people will feel impact to bring down
| demand.
| yrgulation wrote:
| I may be living under a rock but i second the question:
| "what crash"? I am not aware of anything of the sort.
| Leherenn wrote:
| At least in the markets, the NASDAQ is down roughly 30%
| YTD.
| pedrosorio wrote:
| Which is still 50% up from 3 years ago and 80% up from
| the "crash" of 2018
| thegeomaster wrote:
| Right, but financial markets are forward-looking (or
| "leading economic indicators"). They don't encode the
| current state, they encode a consensus prediction for
| some time period in the future. In this case, the stock
| market is pricing in a sharp downturn in profits (and
| margins) over at least the next few quarters, and I don't
| believe it's even finished.
| fundad wrote:
| US economic growth is leveling off after the recovery in
| 2021. The opposition party wants to use it to retake
| power and is calling it a disaster to undermine optimism
| in the economy. Business owners fear a drop in demand and
| scale back hiring.
| sdevonoes wrote:
| Same here. People talk also about the "2020 pandemic
| recession", and at least in IT I didn't notice it at all.
| So, yeah, maybe we (software developers) are the
| privileged ones. Touching wood.
| olliej wrote:
| Honestly I'd take that as dodging a bullet, and so appreciate the
| honesty - if they have sufficient concerns about present market
| behavior impacting their ability to retain staff or even continue
| as a going concern to be stopping recruitment, then you'd be
| risking turning down other opportunities for a job that may
| literally disappear in just a few months.
|
| OTOH, if they're still around and hiring again a few months later
| then I'd take that a sign that they are running themselves well,
| and have a good grasp on their stability, and would consider
| applying again then.
| EamonnMR wrote:
| Anecdotally, the recruiter calls surged in the previous few
| months and have slowed to a trickle in the last couple.
| deeptote wrote:
| Mine are still off charts. I had 15 reach out today, alone.
| Currently have interviews at Github, Google, Stripe, and
| Reddit.
| beranabus wrote:
| How does one get to the point where they get so much
| inquiries?
| deeptote wrote:
| It's not about being talented, that's for sure :)
| wrnr wrote:
| My anecdata is that it seems tech is where the bubble has
| bursted, other sectors are still looking for people. It is late
| state valuation where the squeeze has happened and this has
| impacted in turn how VCs raise their funds, we could see
| contagion in other part of the economy but i hear almost
| nothing in the regular press about this problem (except for
| inflation/stagflation warnings). Maybe it is wishful thinking
| on my part but I for one welcome the return of "rationality" to
| this marked. Everyone was playing fast and loose, AI generated
| NFT and other BS like that, but as a slow and tight player I
| prefer it this way.
| xur17 wrote:
| My email volume doesn't seem to have dropped much at all, but
| perhaps they're trying to take advantage of the uptick in
| layoffs..
| zebraflask wrote:
| Doesn't speak well of their longterm planning ability to yank six
| open positions over a tweet - but I would guess there are other
| undisclosed reasons, and saying "because of the economy" is just
| a convenient thing to say.
| relaunched wrote:
| Many mature companies are freezing net headcount, but still
| backfilling positions. Others are instituting temporary hiring
| freezes. Others are laying people off.
|
| In the startup space, many companies were raising money on
| valuations equal to 30-50 times ARR. Investors can be very picky
| and many startups are about 1 yr of cash on hand. If they are
| forced to raise money now, and their performance isn't the best
| of what's out there, they are going to be SOL or facing such
| onerous terms, it's going to be demoralizing.
|
| Startups should be preparing to ride out the storm and that's
| going to mean they're going to find a way to push off a fundraise
| / going broke at any cost, if possible.
| bussierem wrote:
| Just to give you my own experience right now, I literally just
| accepted a new job yesterday after job hunting for 3-ish weeks. I
| had multiple job interviews, even more job interview requests.
|
| I don't say this to brag, so I apologize if it comes off that
| way. I just wanted to give you what could be a cancelling-out
| anecdata point to your own experience. I wouldn't let it get you
| down too much. Keep hunting and keep applying, I doubt the
| recession will get to a point where NOBODY is hiring :)
|
| If you need another job board resource, try out "Hired.com".
| Here's a referral link from me for it (full disclosure I benefit
| from you using this!):
|
| https://hired.com/x/a510a4a6a7a1e8e08852d57758ad87fc
|
| I found it to be an extremely effective tool for finding
| interviews, or I wouldn't recommend it.
|
| I wish you all the luck possible on your hunt; Sometimes it's
| just that -- luck. Just keep perservering and don't be too proud
| to ask for help from anyone and everyone!
| jghn wrote:
| You're right. We've only hit "not as good as it has been of
| late" phase. Also a lot of newer people have probably never
| experienced a bad job market, so even this is concerning.
|
| It can get a _lot_ worse. We 'll see what happens, but there's
| good reason for people to be concerned about this happening. I
| think it's fine for people to be asking for advice on how to
| approach here.
| bussierem wrote:
| Totally agree with you on that account, I don't fault OP for
| asking this at all! Just wanted to put my 2C/ in here too. I
| hope OP gets plenty of luck and assistance with their search!
|
| It's gonna be rough for a bit, but it's like with the market.
| If you think it's bad right now, just zoom out a bit. Even
| with things slumping a bit, we're still in a pretty good job
| market in our industry.
| cableshaft wrote:
| Got my last job thanks to Hired. It was my first time using it,
| and I had a good experience. I'd use it again.
|
| Main benefit of Hired is I could set my target salary ahead of
| time and the people contacting me knew and agreed to what I was
| looking for, instead of having to dig it out of the interview
| process elsewhere, and I still had about 10 companies reach out
| to me through there.
|
| In comparison, pretty much every recruiter that contacted me on
| LinkedIn were giving me ranges at least 20% lower.
| giantg2 wrote:
| It shouldn't be that bad if you're in a non-tech established
| company - something that is making money and will continue to
| make money.
|
| Startups and a lot of tech companies rely on easy money. They are
| the ones impacted the most.
| mancerayder wrote:
| Companies are pre-emptively closing open recs for non essential
| positions. It's a defensive posture to protect budgets, which are
| going down as the economy winds down.
|
| This could have been prevented, or mitigated, it they'd increased
| [edit] interest rates 6 months to a year ago as many voices were
| calling. And we spoke of corporate greed causing inflation rather
| than money printing. Rhetoric aside, now we're needing to climb
| down a steeper hill.
| glintik wrote:
| Markets need to cool down sometimes to wipe out millions of
| ineffective businesses. Others will optimize their processes to
| cut off expenses. Real estate will be cheaper. These moments are
| positive.
| muzani wrote:
| I thought that was what covid was for
| glintik wrote:
| Covid didn't hurt most of tech companies. Instead they got
| hot money and multiplied capitalization.
| rzazueta wrote:
| This will be at least the fourth such downturn I have seen in my
| career:
|
| - the 2000 Dotcom Bust
|
| - the 2008 recession
|
| - the 2020 pandemic recession
|
| - Now
|
| The short answer is that no one really knows what will happen. A
| lot of companies are reading the tea leaves - and regardless of
| what anyone tells you, that's really all it is - and trying to
| figure out how to make the best moves given rising prices, rising
| interest rates, a pandemic that, though mostly tamed, still
| presents challenges and potential dangers, war in Europe, etc.
| Back in March of 2020 when I was still actively looking, I went
| through the same thing you are now - companies who were super
| eager to hire me all of a sudden stopped the interview process
| and circled the wagons. And these were the FAANGs.
|
| My advice here is to keep looking, but start working on something
| on the side that will generate revenue. Working for a company
| feels like a safe move until the economy contracts and they
| ultimately decide what they think you're really worth. In every
| one of those previous downturns, I felt like my sense of self
| worth diminished along with every rejection or ghosted call - and
| I suffered a LOT of those. This last time around in 2020, I
| finally gave up entirely and became an independent technical
| strategy consultant - basically doing what I've always done, but
| under my own banner instead of someone else's.
|
| It took six very hard months until I had a solid client base and
| consistent enough income to survive - I had to borrow money from
| some folks during the time to pay the mortgage and healthcare,
| which was humbling, but it worked. I also have a mortgage, a
| wife, and a teenager to support, so I really had to get a solid
| income flowing fast - there wasn't a lot of room for error.
|
| If you get a job before you figure out your side gig, great! But
| maybe keeping working on the side gig because it's nice to have
| something to fall back on. If you get the side gig running, but
| it's not making you enough money and you get an offer - take the
| offer, but make sure you keep building out the side gig.
|
| I was probably about your age when the first Dotcom bust happened
| - I had been out of college only two or three years at that point
| - and I gotta tell you, that was frightening. When I got my first
| job out of college, I was hot shit. I put my resume on
| Monster.com on a Wednesday and by the following Friday I had
| received about 100 calls, 10 job interviews, and five solid
| offers. When the bubble burst, not a single person or company
| returned any of my calls. For nine months. A smarter man would
| have spent that time trying to build something to make money, to
| be independent from the vagaries of corporate America and
| economic cycles over which he has zero control. I was not that
| smarter man then - it took 20 years and at least three more
| cycles for me to finally figure it out.
|
| Be the smarter (person). Keep applying and interviewing, but
| spend the rest of the time you would otherwise be working
| building something for yourself to generate revenue. Could be
| code, could be an online class, could be selling stuff on Etsy -
| doesn't matter, so long as it's something you can sustain and
| that can eventually sustain you if worse comes to worse.
| jstx1 wrote:
| The 2020 pandemic crash hardly counts - it was a quick blip and
| everything quickly rebounded to new highs (hiring, salaries,
| stock market etc).
| rzazueta wrote:
| I agree with the poster above this one - 2020 and now are
| basically one big event, but I still mark 2020 because it was
| the point when I finally decided enough was enough with this
| hiring BS these companies put us through. You spend weeks in
| in the interview process, meeting everyone and their cousin,
| taking dumb little tests and such, all so that, right near
| the end, they can say the job is no longer available because
| they need to figure out how the pandemic will affect things.
| I mean, yeah, I get they need to look out for the business...
| but they wasted weeks that could have been better used doing
| something else.
|
| I actually think we're going to look back and see the massive
| hiring and good news that came in 2021 is the blip. A lot of
| these companies that soared during the pandemic - like Zoom
| and Netflix - are seeing revenues drop. Many companies
| figured the worst was over and went nuts hiring, getting
| funding, etc. Now that the fed is raising rates again, a lot
| less of that money will be flowing around, and companies that
| hired thinking they would get their next round will find
| themselves laying a bunch of folks off. It's already started.
| Every single day there's another version of an article in my
| tech feed saying something to the tune of, "Batten down the
| hatches for the next 18-24 months". Executives reading those
| stories are already making moves to cut costs and try to ride
| out the storm. Whether the storm comes or not is largely
| irrelevant as the effects will be the same - and all of that
| preparation for the storm in many ways ensures its arrival.
| ModernMech wrote:
| > taking dumb little tests and such
|
| I once had a company ask me to do a math test after I had
| already done their phone screen, coding interview, and day-
| long on-site interview. Like, they wanted to test my
| knowledge of trigonometry. That was 2018 but also the
| moment I decided I was done with that BS.
| sdevonoes wrote:
| > - the 2020 pandemic recession
|
| Did this affect the IT sector? Seriously asking because I
| didn't notice it.
| ssully wrote:
| Yeah it did, but I don't think it was that big. I had a final
| interview call the day my job at the time started WFH (March
| 2020). I remember we were kind of joking about how wild
| everything was, but how they seemed well situated for it
| (they were a mostly distributed team). Call ended with them
| saying that they were looking to move forward and would send
| over paper work, but they ended up ghosting me. My job at the
| time also had a small wave of layoffs, but by the end of the
| year started hiring again.
|
| Had a friend have a pretty similar experience with a
| different company at the time, but ended up landing a job
| there by the end of the summer of that year.
| rzazueta wrote:
| If you were looking for a job at the time, it absolutely did.
| It recovered in 2021, but I was very far along - at the stage
| where they were ready to make an offer - with at least two
| major companies and a handful of small ones, and had the rug
| pulled out at the end citing the pandemic and them closing
| ranks.
| spicymaki wrote:
| I would lump 2020 through 2022 into one big catastrophe.
| gnulinux wrote:
| I thought things are looking pretty positive by the end of
| 2021. Some of this is of course made worse by the Ukrainian
| War.
| moneywoes wrote:
| Could you please some advice regarding this for someone with
| 2yoe mostly lamp stack? Where do I find clients after
| incorporating
|
| > My advice here is to keep looking, but start working on
| something on the side that will generate revenue
| rzazueta wrote:
| You need to spend a lot of time thinking about your product
| and who actually wants to pay for it. Who are your ideal
| customers? What are their challenges? How does your product
| solve those challenges? How high a priority are those
| challenges to that audience? Is there an audience that would
| put them at a higher priority? How much is it worth to them
| to solve those challenges - how are those challenges
| currently affecting their business and how much money could
| they make / save if they fixed them?
|
| If you figure out these answers and get to know your targeted
| audience very well, you will then understand how they learn
| about new products and evaluate them. You can then start
| marketing to them in their language with the value
| proposition of how your product solves their problems. Put
| ads up where they will find them, hang out in forums and chat
| rooms and such where they ask questions, write blog posts
| about things they are interested in and make sure they get
| picked up by search engines and - hopefully - news
| aggregators like this one where your target audience is
| reading. It's a slow, iterative process that keeps building
| on itself as you keep going and building momentum. It will be
| very discouraging at times, but you need to really understand
| your customers and, when you do, you should be able to figure
| out why things aren't working when they aren't and how to fix
| them.
|
| Don't worry about going big and scaling - make enough money
| to support your needs (and trim your needs as low as you can
| while remaining comfortable). I found consulting clients by
| posting on my LinkedIn feed. I have one major privilege here
| - I've been in the industry for more than 20 years and have
| built a sizable network as a result, all of whom were eager
| to help me find clients. The bulk of this network is only a
| few years old, though, so there's no reason you can't build a
| similar network yourself, if you haven't already.
|
| As technologists, we tend to focus on the tech. Spend some
| time focusing on people, their problems, and how you can
| uniquely solve them - better, faster, more focused, whatever.
| You may even find tech isn't the answer to solve for - it may
| be education or writing or running workshops or something
| else.
|
| And, mostly, build trust in yourself. All of this stuff seems
| so complicated at first, but that's because we complicate it
| needlessly. You want o be successful in business? Find an
| audience that has a need, really understand the consequences
| of that need and what it means to that audience, create a
| solution and solicit feedback from the audience, then sell to
| those who respond favorably. Then, keep listening to them and
| intelligently improving it to grow the business. If you sit
| down and think about how YOU would go about doing it, you may
| find most of the answers you're looking for.
| uptownfunk wrote:
| Agree with others, wouldn't count 2020 as a big downturn, the
| government sent checks out to everyone so they could medicate
| with netflix, alcohol and vaping. We are on the brink of the
| next one - just wait until some geopolitical event occurs (ahem
| China) that throws yet another wrench into an already
| distressed supply chain and watch things fall apart.
| bnt wrote:
| Their honesty should be applauded. Imagine they hired you and
| then had to fire you in 6 months. Keep in touch with the PM if
| you liked them and see how they perform in the next 12 months.
| Mo3 wrote:
| I agree 100%. I feel sorry for OP of course, but this is highly
| commendable, even if the threat of major recession turns out to
| be overestimated. This employer is acting in a fashion that
| shows high levels of social responsibility and moral value.
| Hats off.
| FunnyBadger wrote:
| In 6 months?? I can remember situations in the past where
| people were hired and then fired 2 weeks later because a
| contract was lost. Mostly in aerospace/defense industry.
| wiredfool wrote:
| The startup I was in in the first bust (2001) hired/relocated
| people 2 weeks before laying everyone off.
| sl9dmk2 wrote:
| Agreed, the default action is to over-hire than fire / lay off.
| OP: it sucks right now, just means you'll need to interview at
| more places than usual to make sure you find a fit.
|
| There are still lots of startups hiring
| (https://topstartups.io/), but you will need to be more
| careful. Ask about burn, runway, growth metrics.
| version_five wrote:
| dougmsmith wrote:
| mc32 wrote:
| I agree. In a previous recession I had an offer rescinded over
| a weekend. I'm glad they did because most likely as they had to
| reduce headcount during the recession Id have been on the
| chopping block --my then employer having been conservative in
| hiring didn't have to cut as much. also sometimes in times of
| expansion some hires are "luxury hires", nice to haves, but not
| must haves and can be the first to go.
|
| Usually it's recent hires and people who've been there a long
| stretch who get cut first, of course with lots of exceptions.
| mooreds wrote:
| > Usually it's recent hires and people who've been there a
| long stretch who get cut first, of course with lots of
| exceptions.
|
| This was a bit confusing to me.
|
| Are you saying in your experience that it is both the most
| senior and most junior employees (in terms of company tenure)
| that get laid off?
| daveslash wrote:
| I entered the job market during the 2008 recession. I
| definitely experienced the _" hired... and..now you're laid
| off"_ ~ as the saying goes _" when times get tough, last to
| hire = first to fire"_. As for laying off senior folks --
| I've seen this too; I've seen people who are senior by
| virtue of just having been there the longest (20+ years)
| and have had the most pay raises... but don't necessarily
| contribute as much value as someone who's been there 10
| years and costs less. If you're senior and your boss knows*
| that you're contributing more value add than is reflected
| by your paycheck -- you won't be let go.
|
| * This is one reason why you should be sure to convey your
| wins to your boss; when you have 1-on-1 conversations, be
| sure to highlight obstacles that you've overcome. You don't
| have to brag, but it's okay to be realistic - humble, but
| proud.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| > that you're contributing more value add than is
| reflected by your paycheck -- you won't be let go
|
| That's a very optimistic take. What usually happens is
| that there's an obvious bottom line improvement to laying
| off a few very senior people, but the impact isn't so
| obvious, so from the business's perspective it looks like
| a win.
|
| I remember the cognitive dissonance of being an
| employer's rep at a job fair in 2010 and telling everyone
| who came up to our booth that I could take resumes, but
| we weren't hiring! At least I got a free lunch out of it.
|
| Businesses don't always do what makes sense from the
| outside.
| DLTADragonHawk wrote:
| This exception wise might be the case but, the cost to
| performance is probably just less for some senior folks
| compared to up and coming new people. For instance if i
| have 10+ year employee who has received 3% cost of living
| raises + additional performance raises they likely have a
| cost/performance ratio worse than the A player with 5
| years experience who wants to move up. I can promote them
| for a bump in salary and have someone who hasn't
| accumulated as much cost overtime with a similar
| performance. I reduced capacity, improved moral for an A
| player and cut cost in one decision. There would also be
| minimal impact moral wise to the remaining organization
| by hiring within. That's just my take though and I am no
| authority in the topic.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Why do people think oldtimers at companies get paid
| better than new hires?
|
| That is the case for traditional companies, but not for
| tech. I worked for one company (most of the time as a
| manager) for almost 27 years, and never made as much as
| new hires at most tech companies. My company got an
| insane bargain with me, and my whole team, and they knew
| it.
|
| I don't think that _cost_ is the reason that companies
| like firing older folks.
| VGltZUNvbnN1 wrote:
| Some people just barely do their work but are kept on
| because they are good for the team/team spirit. I've seen a
| lot of those people getting axed in 2008.
| neoxone wrote:
| You are totally right, I really appreciated their honesty. As
| mc32 stated, if I was hired, in case of recession as a recent
| hire I would one of the first ones to go. The PM asked me if I
| would like to get contacted in the future to continue with the
| process in case things get better, to which I replied yes. I'll
| keep an eye on them.
| bergenty wrote:
| Isn't that pretty great? Get paid for 6 months of relatively
| light ramp up time and then a few months worth of severance for
| some time off once fired?
| thr0wawayf00 wrote:
| No thanks. Spending 6 months getting ramped up and finally
| productive only to be let go and have to start the search all
| over again sounds like my nightmare.
| no-dr-onboard wrote:
| Sounds like an egoist perspective, which is fine if that's
| your ideology.
|
| I think most people would see this as a loss for the small
| firm (note that the firms size matters). The cost of an
| employee is pretty high for small shops and salary is just
| one of the line items that come with OP's employment.
| Additionally, severance is rarely offered in positions less
| than 1 yr, even then it's optional.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > Isn't that pretty great? Get paid for 6 months of
| relatively light ramp up time and then a few months worth of
| severance for some time off once fired?
|
| Not great at all.
|
| For anyone reading your resume in the future, it's impossible
| to know if you were let go due to no fault of your own, or if
| you were let go for cause after a probationary period
| expired.
|
| I personally don't hold a single short job against people,
| but the reality is that having a 6-month job followed by a
| couple months off on your resume _will_ have a negative
| impact when some hiring managers read your resume.
|
| It's also 6 months (+ time off) that you can't accomplish
| much of anything because you were ramping up and then had the
| rug pulled out from under you. Having a 6-12 month setback in
| your career isn't a huge deal when you've been working for 20
| years, but it can be a huge setback for juniors.
| jen20 wrote:
| > For anyone reading your resume in the future, it's
| impossible to know
|
| Just write why on your resume? The dates will check out or
| not.
| ramesh31 wrote:
| >Isn't that pretty great? Get paid for 6 months of relatively
| light ramp up time and then a few months worth of severance
| for some time off once fired?
|
| Nah that'll torch your resume for years. Unless you're a
| total rockstar otherwise, I'd be terrified to explain a 6
| month stint.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| A side note. I see a lot of hiring freeze at least in the gaming
| industry.
| tunesmith wrote:
| The 2000 recession sucked and lasted a while. I remember Intel
| was hiring web programmers for $12/hour and were getting swarmed
| with applicants.
|
| In those kinds of environments, contractors do a little better.
| Employers are all freaked out, they want to get work done but
| they don't want to make long-term commitments. It's not until
| they start making noise about contractors being expensive and
| wanting to convert you to full-time that you know the recession
| is over.
| namecheapTA wrote:
| What happens in times like this and people's issues with wage
| discrimination for example? Are there people left at the
| company still making $50 an hour for a similar role to someone
| new hired making $20? Do all these salaries get readjusted
| eventually?
| ineptech wrote:
| If you want to be recession-proof, get a job at a non-software
| company (or in academia, state/city government, etc).
|
| In theory, "programmer" is the same job whether you work for a
| startup or the Minnesota Dept. of Transportation, but in practice
| they feel like completely different industries. In one, you can
| make fantastic money but the interviews are famously difficult,
| the culture can be borderline abusive, and layoffs are a way of
| life. In the other, the money is only _pretty good_ but you leave
| at 5, the toughest interview question you 'll get is "Please name
| three design patterns," and your job is mostly immune to macro
| trends.
| eikenberry wrote:
| I'd recommend the opposite approach and go for stable software
| companies as the best employers. Non-software companies usually
| see software as a cost that is often at the top of the list
| when layoffs come up. IMO working for a software company means
| not only better treatment (eg. see the recent discussions on
| staff vs. line jobs) but you get better stability as you are
| core to the business.
|
| None of this applies to start-ups which are volatile in every
| industry. But if looking at established players I'd 100% rather
| work for a software company or, more specifically, any company
| where the software is core to what they do (ie. SaS companies,
| hardware+software companies, etc. all are usually good).
| alar44 wrote:
| This is a great point. I work for a medical device
| manufacturing company. Times have never been better for us.
| There was a dip in the beginning of Covid, but after a few
| months we just started sucking up clients from companies that
| went under.
|
| Joining that industry was a conscious decision I made because I
| want to work for a company that makes tangible things, not
| "just" software. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with
| "just software" but I find it's more interesting when you're
| making widgets and the software needs to interface with the
| physical world.
| codegeek wrote:
| The screenshot has the word "bootstrapped" which makes sense.
| Unless you have free VC money to throw, startups and smaller
| companies have to really watch their spending and as VC money is
| drying up (supposedly), this is expected.
|
| Having said that, I think in 2022, there are lot of companies
| tech and non tech that are still hiring as the demand for tech
| jobs is a lot more than what we had during 2001 or 2008 crash.
| You just have to do a bit more homework and effort to get the
| jobs.
| neoxone wrote:
| Good point, definitely the demand for these jobs and our tech
| dependent lifestyle is completely different nowadays than 2
| decades ago, that didn't crossed my mind... it really gives me
| a new perspective
| gregjor wrote:
| Expect hiring freezes and layoffs across the board. Startups and
| companies that don't show a profit may shrivel up. This happened
| in 2000 and got pretty bad before it got better.
|
| Businesses in other sectors (not tech companies) rely on software
| so those jobs don't go away. Not every sector of the economy is a
| rollercoaster like the tech sector. Some skills transfer better
| than others. I stayed employed through the 2000 downturn doing
| database work (Oracle) for enterprise logistics companies, for
| example. Away from the bleeding edge of tech you find plenty of
| jobs, although maybe not as sexy or fun as you'd like.
| aghilmort wrote:
| yeah, lots of people tightening belts right now across tech
|
| can offer these resources &/or DM on twitter if need help using
| any:
|
| 1. our job board with 14M+ openings ->
| https://breezethat.com/x/job-search-beta
|
| 2. deep thread with 15+ unique ways to find open gigs ->
| https://twitter.com/DotDotJames/status/1522683095991959556
|
| 3. our full search engine, https://breezethat.com/
|
| 4. where our date filters can be very helpful for due diligence;
| examples of using those to find more recent results or dig into
| past about about XYZ ->
| https://twitter.com/search?q=from%3Adotdotjames%20(date%20OR...
|
| 5. early beta of our remote job filter, much better version soon
| -> https://breezethat.com/x/job-search-
| beta?q=after:2022-01-01%...
| mooreds wrote:
| > What companies or roles will be more resilient?
|
| Well, for startups, if they've just raised (in the last 6 months)
| and you know or can estimate their burn rate and they have 18-24
| months in the bank (or are cash flow positive), that's a good
| choice. Also good if they have a clear business model, rather
| than still trying to figure it out.
|
| I think that any of the pandemic focused companies were darlings
| of the markets for the past 2 years and they'll be a snap back
| for them (Zoom, Pelaton, etc).
|
| But it's hard to counsel you on areas of growth/stability at this
| time. If you are currently employed and decently happy, this next
| 6 months would probably be a good time to stay still, since
| you're a known (and hopefully respected) quality at $CURJOB.
|
| See this great tweet on the topic:
| https://twitter.com/techgirl1908/status/1524740200206848000
| (there are also some companies in the replies who say they are
| still hiring).
| itake wrote:
| Can you elaborate what you mean by startups that have raised in
| the last 6 months being a good choice?
|
| My understanding is those companies could be high risk for
| being overvalued and will have difficulty raising funds in
| 18-24 months. The RSUs maybe taxed at the current value, but
| actually be worthless after a down round.
|
| My interpretation is companies that raised 18-24 months ago and
| are still hiring now would show stronger signals, because their
| last valuation missed the tech book of 2020 and they seem to
| think they can continue hiring despite the current economic
| situation.
| mooreds wrote:
| My reasoning: if they raised in the last 6 months, they
| should be good to go for the next 18-24 months, which is
| hopefully enough to get through the storm.
|
| I didn't consider RSUs or the possibility of a down round
| (but frankly, everyone who raised in the last 2 years has
| that, to your point). I'm cynical enough that I typically
| value options or RSUs of private companies close to $0
| ("whee, a lottery ticket!"). Now, stock grants of public
| companies are a different situation.
|
| > My interpretation is companies that raised 18-24 months ago
| and are still hiring now would show stronger signals
|
| That's a good point. Sure, and stronger yet would be startups
| that are profitable or cash flow positive (or could be by
| flipping a few switches). The problem is that knowing from
| the outside if a company is profitable is as difficult as
| knowing if someone is going to hit the brakes on hiring in
| the next few months.
| axg11 wrote:
| It's interesting to see the self-reinforcing aspect of this
| recession/downturn. Many companies have yet to see a material
| impact to their revenue or market conditions, but are tightening
| their belts in anticipation. I'm not saying that's a bad thing or
| the case here. The more a potential recession is discussed, the
| more fearful companies become, the more conservative they become
| in their actions and ultimately the recession will be worse due
| to that. Perhaps the contagion of fear is better in the long term
| as companies are forced to act more prudently.
| kradeelav wrote:
| This is a little incorrect for some sectors, though for other
| sectors would absolutely be right.
|
| I work in a product oriented company (won't get into details),
| and because of inflation and other areas of the downturn, raw
| materials (plastics, circuit boards, wood) got more expensive.
| We then needed to adjust the final sticker price higher which
| (understandably) means that some customers at say, Walmart, are
| less likely to buy the product. It's a very real tight squeeze
| on both ends for us and also for the customer. This has been
| going on for a few months now and was a major early indicator
| (imo) to me that things were going to get grim for a bit.
| jghn wrote:
| I encountered this a lot in the 2001 drawback. There were mini
| pockets though. Things would dry up. Then people would start
| interviewing again. The next shoe would drop. Rinse, repeat. It
| was more typical of smaller companies but wound up being across
| the entire industry.
|
| I didn't wind up job hunting in 2008 so can't speak to that.
| the_only_law wrote:
| From the sound of it, my timing going back to school may just
| work out.
|
| Though I'm kinda curious if the affect is outsized mostly in
| the SV, VC pumped side of the tech industry. I work for what
| technically could be considered a tech startup but is backed by
| companies with heavy domain experience and traditional
| investment firms. As far as I've heard we're still in a hiring
| storm.
| jghn wrote:
| What we saw in 2001 was a network effect. The artificially
| pumped up companies died. Then the B2Bs that they were paying
| also struggled and died. And then other companies that relied
| on those B2Bs had trouble.
|
| You're right that it will start with the obvious candidates,
| but we'll see if it goes on long/bad enough to have a broader
| impact.
| fny wrote:
| It will... think of how many startups use AWS, Google
| Cloud, Tableau, Slack, or Microsoft products. Our industry
| is incestuous.
| the_only_law wrote:
| I would hope that a number of those companies are well
| embedded and experienced to weather a tech
| crash/recession. I mean I know MS has had to have seen
| their share.
| cableshaft wrote:
| I was laid off in early 2009 during the Great Recession. I
| figured instead of competing with a bunch of people getting
| laid off I might as well go back to school and spend the next
| two years finishing up my degree and ride it out a bit.
|
| Didn't regret that decision. Although tuition has gotten
| totally ridiculous. Do it the cheapest way you can, like a
| public in-state school or something (I did that and it was
| still pretty expensive).
| ThrowITout4321 wrote:
| The last 10 years or so have been very good for startup
| financing. It's been relatively easy to get funding. That's
| changing. Investors are going to be more selective about what
| they fund so you'll see lots of companies slowing their hiring.
| But that does not mean it will all fall apart. There are still
| plenty of startups that are doing good work. My advice is to keep
| trying and don't give up. Be flexible about what you accept and
| after you have a job keep an eye out for a better one. I would
| focus on the bigger companies that have a steady profit margin.
| They will be more likely to weather the coming slowdown. These
| things happen. You just have to make the best of it.
| isbvhodnvemrwvn wrote:
| Keep in mind that it might be (or might not, impossible to
| predict) a preemptive decision due to uncertainty, not
| necessarily due to actual changes they see. A company I worked at
| when COVID started also had a hiring freeze, but had the best
| result in years during 2020-2021 due to the market situation.
|
| Ultimately all companies are linked to a market of some sort
| which in the end can see growth or shrinkage if a crisis comes,
| you can't do anything about it.
| WWLink wrote:
| This is what I really expect. Just like the oil companies that
| jacked prices up and then claimed record profits lol.
|
| Ultimately I think this might be an around-the-block way to cut
| fat, get rid of remote workers, and a desperate attempt to try
| and take control of the job market again.
|
| If the big companies claim the sky is falling and start laying
| people off and cutting costs everywhere, then everyone else is
| going to follow.
|
| The evidence will be in earnings reports later on. If a
| company's executive management is crying wolf and then
| reporting record profits, well.........
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Yeah, you have to wonder how many people who were let go in Q1
| 2020 because of lockdown uncertainty were let go needlessly
| based on how tech rebounding in the following months.
| unixhero wrote:
| First comment: Don't say "get rekt" anywhere near managers,
| recruiters or founders.
| datalopers wrote:
| I'll take contemporary teenager slang over YC-backed web3
| shitcoin startups, recruiters looking for "rockstars" or
| "ninjas" coupled with the latest JS library, or founders with
| their "change the world" mantra at yet another utterly useless
| ETL SaaS.
| [deleted]
| programmarchy wrote:
| Correct, in polite company one should say "get dabbed on"
| instead.
| TameAntelope wrote:
| Are you f*cking kidding me?
|
| Counterpoint: Say "get rekt" around me. It's fine. Nobody cares
| if you're making stuff or can help them make stuff.
|
| This comment is a joke, nobody who matters thinks like this.
| RajT88 wrote:
| I had the same situation in reverse.
|
| I had a loop set up with a tech startup, and ultimately I decided
| that due to their market segment potentially being impacted by
| the recession that it didn't make sense to keep interviewing. I
| was likely to be much more secure at my much larger company in
| the economy sours.
|
| So I canceled an interview loop that was going really well.
| There's more to it than just economy, but it was one factor.
|
| Ultimately no hard feelings. They understood.
| hellohowareu wrote:
| Obligatory "Do you have 1. a Website containing at least a small
| portfolio of two or more projects, and 2. a Github and/or Gitlab
| profile with some small open source projects, and 3. a LinkedIn
| presence, and 4. Your Resume on multiple resume sites frequented
| by Recruiters (Indeed, ZipRecruiter, Dice, Workatastartup.com ,
| etc.?"
| mathverse wrote:
| Can anyone explain to me how come we are about to hit recession
| when there is an incredible demand (as in people have the money
| and want to spend them) for everything (furniture, appliances,
| anything really..) but there's no supply?
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Interest rates were raised and there seems to be a concerted
| effort to blame inflation on higher wages and low unemployment,
| so those are being dealt with with hiring freezes:
| https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-the-fed-wants-corporate-a...
| Workaccount2 wrote:
| Non-asset holders (read: bottom ~70%) do not have money and
| cannot stomach inflation.
|
| Unfortunately, the data shows that most Americans are not SWE's
| pulling $180k from the comfort of their newly renovated living
| room for the last two years.
| SilverBirch wrote:
| Caveat: not an expert.
|
| Well, demand is high and supply is constrained. This has caused
| a spike in inflation. It's a good question whether interest
| rates should be used to counter this. In order to counter this
| interest rates are going up, this reduces the attractiveness of
| the stock market causing a crash- as you've seen in the main
| indices. But on top of that inflation is high in energy and
| Putins war is going to spike food prices. High interest rates
| also encourage people to save instead of spend which will put a
| headwind on spending.
|
| So we're moving into a situation where consumers are going to
| be spending a lot of their income on mortgages, rent, fuel and
| food. Whilst the supply chain may ease supply, discretionary
| spending looks likely to tank.
| hardtke wrote:
| Economists like to say "the cure for high prices is high
| prices." High prices should reduce demand and also increase
| supply. I don't see how this necessarily leads to a recession
| (a contraction in the economy) which is usually caused by
| fewer people working. We have record low unemployment. A lot
| of people are just parroting political talking points at this
| point about the inevitability of a recession, there is no
| indication yet of one AFAIK.
| tyrfing wrote:
| The Fed is going to raise rates until something breaks, and
| a recession or "hard landing" is just the likely cost to be
| paid. It's a healthy part of the business cycle, and closer
| to an intentional policy outcome than something that is
| just happening out of nowhere. The excesses of the past
| decade are exemplified by the tech industry and it will
| likely be disproportionately impacted.
| devKnight wrote:
| There are still people hiring, there's always work out there. I'd
| put up a post in the "freelancer" and "who wants to be hired"
| posts next week here on hackernews. Maybe you can get some bites
| that way, I've gotten work through that in the past.
| neoxone wrote:
| Thanks for the advice, I will definitely check "whos hiring"
| next week.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I'm not surprised (unfortunately, and I am truly sorry for this).
|
| Don't look to the 2008 recession for an idea of how things may
| go. Look to the 2000 (Tech Bubble Burst) recession. In that one,
| the bottom dropped out of the tech market. Web designers were
| especially hard hit.
|
| I have family that works for Intel, and they say that Intel tends
| to actually increase hiring in bear markets. I suspect that's
| because they are getting bargains, and preparing for the
| inevitable upswing, so they will be in a position to jump on the
| up elevator when things turn around.
|
| I guess it depends on the company. Companies that are running on
| fumes (highly leveraged) are likely to have a tough time.
| Companies with conservative approaches may do better.
| [deleted]
| wly_cdgr wrote:
| Go get your MS/PhD. By the time you finish, the market will be
| stronger, and so will your resume
|
| The Georgia Tech online MS is good and about $7k total. You can
| pay for it working at Starbucks
| lfowles wrote:
| > You can pay for it working at Starbucks
|
| Ah, so housing included in tuition huh? :D (/s)
| yodsanklai wrote:
| > the market will be stronger
|
| what makes you think so?
| muzani wrote:
| People anticipate the drop to hit hardest in 6 months, which
| becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as everyone cancels hiring
| immediately to see how the market will end up.
|
| I don't think companies are stopping because they're out of
| money. They're just slamming the brakes because something
| strange and unexpected happened.
| wly_cdgr wrote:
| No deep expertise, just looking at the last few decades and
| eyeballing the odds
| lordofgibbons wrote:
| I have never once in my career seen someone with an MS get
| hired over someone with a BS because they had a MS. If you're
| doing it purely for return-on-investment, it's a massive waste
| of time and money.
| wly_cdgr wrote:
| I've seen hundreds of job descriptions for the more
| interesting roles that all list an MS or PhD as a
| requirement.
|
| But even if that bullet point is BS, I am sceptical that the
| ROI on spending $7k to get 1000+ hours better at your field
| can be THAT bad. Maybe suboptimal, with all the good
| free/cheap resources out there, but a waste of time? I'd be
| surprised. Besides, you get to avoid meetings for a couple
| more years, and that by itself might be worth $7k
| gedy wrote:
| I've worked for a place that would only hire MS or PhD grads.
| bluemania2 wrote:
| You may be underestimating the number of job descriptions
| which demand a masters degree to even be considered. This is
| especially the case for data science roles for tech/fin/blue
| chip. From experience OMSCS is perfect for this.
| amackera wrote:
| As a counter example: I've seen that plenty of times. PhDs
| too.
| michaelrpeskin wrote:
| I bet the non-profitable, feeding-on-VC startups are getting
| worried and we'll see more of this. I work at a non-VC-funded,
| profitable, stable, small place and we're desperately trying to
| hire. I've never made FAANG/startup income, and I've always felt
| a little left-out because of that. But we've been stable for
| nearly 30 years, and have never had the big layoffs or hiring
| freezes including, dot-com bust, 2008, 2020 COVID lockdowns, and
| now. We're low variance, so the upside isn't as crazy, but then
| again the downside has been historically pretty limited too. My
| advise is to find a smaller, stable, profitable place to
| interview at.
|
| edit: grammar
| twblalock wrote:
| FAANGs are slowing down and freezing hiring too. It's not just
| startups that are worried.
| no_wizard wrote:
| I'm sure you'll get some interests folks if you post where you
| work here on HN!
| bob1029 wrote:
| > My advise is to find a smaller, stable, profitable place to
| interview at.
|
| This is the answer. Our organization is tiny and works in an
| extremely boring niche - B2B banking consultants & related
| software shenanigans. We've been at it since the 90s.
|
| If you adjust your expectations just a little bit (i.e. you are
| now OK using "boring" stuff like .NET/Java), you might be able
| to get something much more quickly than otherwise.
|
| Regardless, the market has spoken and we must all adapt.
| michaelrpeskin wrote:
| Yes, forgot boring! We're kind of boring. Our customers are
| boring, our technology is boring (Java 8!), but the problems
| we solve are actually pretty exciting - we just solve them in
| a boring way :)
| tynpeddler wrote:
| I've had meta and microsoft cancel on me. I also went all the way
| through the interview loop at one company, received very positive
| feedback but was told that they had decided to close the position
| without filling it. There's definitely a pullback and it started
| about 2 months ago.
|
| Update: As of now, about half of the companies I've interviewed
| with at one level or another, have abruptly halted their process
| due to economic concerns.
| flutas wrote:
| I had a similar interview experience with Disney recently.
| Going so far as them telling me I would have an offer letter in
| hand within 2 weeks, followed by silence. When I reached back
| out to them they basically played dumb about it and said some
| phrase about how "their hiring needs are always changing."
| mysql wrote:
| Not sure about other places but MSFT recruitment just reached
| out to me today.
| giaour wrote:
| Every team at MSFT does their own hiring, so experiences
| there won't be uniform.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| Do they literally do the whole hiring process, or do take
| use a central hiring department to help them. It sounds
| really inefficient to have every team duplicate hiring
| personnel? Though of course you need the team to be in
| control of the process.
|
| Do the teams organise any other company wide functions in
| that way? Hardware procurement, maybe?
| hiq wrote:
| This is most likely very team-/location-dependent.
| timClicks wrote:
| Just make sure that it's an internal recruiter seeking to
| fill an actual position, not someone on contract that's just
| fishing for applicants.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| > What companies or roles will be more resilient?
|
| Defense or any project fulfilling federal contracts.
| tmaly wrote:
| I had a full signed offer to join large semiconductor company
| designing chips back in 2001. I found out on slashdot before the
| call that they were giving people a choice to take a payout or
| take your chance looking for a job within the company. This was
| during the dotcom crash.
|
| The best advice I can give you is to keep developing skills that
| are in demand. Keep building things. Keep networking. You will
| find something better even in tough times.
| kodah wrote:
| I'm searching right now. There are jobs to be had, but you'll
| have to fire like a scatter gun instead of a rifle. I started my
| interview process with 10 companies and I'm down to three that
| I'm closing final rounds with.
| sakopov wrote:
| I graduated during a financial collapse in 2008 with a CS degree.
| I had about 2 years of internship experience at the time. My
| college friends were telling me "it's really bad - take what you
| can get." After weeks of searching I ended up taking my first
| engineering job which paid $25k a year. It was rough and my only
| advice is get ready for the worst.
| rozenmd wrote:
| companies with consistent revenue are doubling down on hiring atm
| - think Atlassian, Cloudflare, etc
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| I've been interviewing as well, and plenty of companies have
| either gone totally silent or cited hiring freezes after very
| positive interviews and even some offers. It really burns to put
| in the hours and have things go cold, but I try to remind myself
| how much worse it has been and could be. It's alright to have to
| work a little harder at times like this.
|
| I'm looking for much different roles than you are, so our
| experiences will differ. My advice for anyone would be to be
| persistent though. There's not much to lose by keeping at it and
| maintaining good spirits, but there's a lot to lose by giving up.
| You could be surprised to find that connections you make now are
| rewarding when the economy is looking better, too.
|
| The job market isn't a reflection of you, and losing out on
| opportunities will be easier than ever, but not by any fault of
| your own. Give it time and do your best, and you'll find
| something.
|
| Good luck, keep your head up!
| ricardobayes wrote:
| What you can do in these times is to work in, or interview 'line'
| jobs vs 'staff' jobs. Jobs that actively bring in revenue are
| rarely at risk, even in economic downturns.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staff_and_line
| JohnJamesRambo wrote:
| This matches the tweet I saw from a stripper that said she is a
| leading indicator and yes we are in a recession.
| saos wrote:
| Can someone do a story time of the last recession and how it
| impacted tech? Start, middle and end
|
| Just want to understand what to look out for and just prepare.
| oblio wrote:
| 2008? Not much. Some hiring freezes, maybe some salary freezes,
| but overall quite reduced impact. Of course, this is very
| location dependent and domain dependent.
|
| New grads were probably hit the hardest, as they usually are
| during recessions.
|
| 2000 was much worse from everything I hear, but I wasn't there
| at the time.
| ghaff wrote:
| Yes, 2000/2001 was much worse generally in tech. I was pretty
| lucky. Was laid off but got another job through a good
| connection with a company still doing OK. Then not so OK but
| aside from a salary cut made it through.
|
| But there was a lot of "Would you like fries with that?" in
| the tech sector generally.
| [deleted]
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