[HN Gopher] On Aging Alone (2021)
___________________________________________________________________
On Aging Alone (2021)
Author : drdee
Score : 350 points
Date : 2022-05-21 00:51 UTC (22 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (thewalrus.ca)
(TXT) w3m dump (thewalrus.ca)
| supernova87a wrote:
| These are the life choices we make, whether through biology,
| mentality, or environment. For me, one of the key factors is that
| the signal-to-noise you have to endure with friends to get the
| few moments of gratification is so low that it's draining. Maybe
| it's a product of having a high bar for what constitutes new and
| interesting/entertaining for me (compared against spending time
| alone), combined with already being biased towards things and
| ideas rather than people.
|
| I live with the consequences now in middle age, when friends and
| connections gradually evaporate if not actively cultivated. And
| I'm sure I'll pay for it at a point in life where you need those
| who stuck with you not for ideas or things, but because of
| friendship or family. Because you wanted to spend time with them,
| low signal-to-noise and everything.
|
| Anyway, we all eventually experience this phase. For some, it
| just comes earlier than others.
| Aeolun wrote:
| It's kinda curious. I connect to people over ideas, but my
| family also happens to be the group of people that is similarly
| inclined enough to connect over ideas with.
|
| I left my home to go live overseas, but even after 8 years
| abroad I haven't found people I connect with in the same way.
| baby wrote:
| You remind me of people so picky that they can never find a
| partner in life.
| randomhodler84 wrote:
| Far better to be alone than with the wrong person. People
| settle for what is convenient.
|
| The wrong person is a fate worse than death.
| baby wrote:
| You're never going to find mr or ms right
| randomhodler84 wrote:
| I know, but I don't care. I also believe that having
| children is deeply unethical given the state of the
| world. Birthing new humans into this dystopian hellscape
| we find ourselves in is torture.
|
| Humans waste far too much of their time on unproductive
| persists like relationships and families. Nobody outside
| these structures cares what is achieved and rightfully
| so, human influenced by neurochemicals to influence
| behavior to spread genetic material, news at 11.
|
| Meanwhile some people are building things, yourself
| included, that have never existed before and push
| humanity forward.
| Gigachad wrote:
| Listen to yourself. When you start talking about the signal to
| noise ratio and calculating the return on investment of social
| interactions, its time to step away from the keyboard and
| reevaluate your life.
|
| Your brain has been fried by hustle culture.
| jstx1 wrote:
| Wait, how are you making the jump to someone's brain being
| fried? They probably mean that they don't enjoy most of some
| interactions and the parts that the enjoy aren't enough to
| make the whole thing worth it.
|
| I don't get why you're getting caught up on the language or
| what this has to do with hustle culture.
| mongol wrote:
| I think it was just a way to get the idea across. As much as
| I value being with friends, even after a short while, let's
| say a weekend, I feel desire to get away for relief. It is
| draining for me. I think it is called being introvert
| echlebek wrote:
| Wise words, Gigachad.
| supernova87a wrote:
| This is too funny.
| openknot wrote:
| Eh, I appreciate GP's honesty. I can see where the user is
| coming from, and the user also acknowledges the potential
| disadvantages later in time.
|
| I used to spend a lot of time, hours a week, at university
| just hanging out with people instead of working hard on my
| career (the opposite of hustle culture). The vast majority of
| these friends entered a relationship and/or moved far away,
| and I don't see them anymore (we've also become different
| people since then). I've since focused more on my career--no
| longer taking time just to hang out--and I'm subjectively
| happier. I still make a best faith attempt to treat others
| respectfully, help others when I can, and also make time for
| my partner and care for her, but I genuinely like reading,
| watching a good film, or doing a solitary movie more than
| investing a lot of time in friendships, especially when
| they're likely to be temporary and transient.
|
| I wish friendships would last longer, but in my experience,
| it takes two to invest in one (and the vast majority of
| people don't)--though in contrast, romantic and familial
| relationships are more likely to last. I've learned a lot
| more from reading and exploring artistic works with the time
| and energy that I could have spent hanging out. In addition,
| career work will help myself and my family secure a
| comfortable life in the future, whereas I wouldn't
| realistically expect friends to materially help me out that
| far in the future (assuming we'd still be in touch and
| geographically close).
| refurb wrote:
| Very Gigachad comment, Gigachad!
|
| The most relaxing time for me is going back to the small
| beach town where my surviving parent retired.
|
| The pace is _slow_. It takes a few days for me to downshift
| from a "fit everything in you wanted to do" to the "lets see
| what the day brings" mindset.
|
| You might go for a walk, run into a friend and decide to just
| stop by for a coffee for an hour and catch up. After that?
| Who knows. Maybe walk down main street and find something to
| eat (without looking up reviews on Yelp). Have a drink before
| heading home and reading a book for an hour until you fall
| asleep.
|
| The urge to hyper-optimize every living minute is a very
| common mindset among certain groups of people. And it's often
| what's needed to reach the higher socio-economic levels.
|
| But man can it be toxic. It starts to become a goal in and of
| itself. It's no longer about the "best" life but rather the
| "most optimum". Yes, it's worthwhile to figure out the best
| job between the two choices. But it's also good sometimes to
| stop trying to optimize and just enjoy where you are at that
| moment.
| beebeepka wrote:
| Comments like yours remind me that I barely have a
| connection to this world anymore. Maybe it's just being
| old, or not being in the US.
|
| Checking yelp reviews before getting lunch is the most
| alien thing I've read here in quite a while. And this site
| is full of people who I don't get at all.
| jkingsman wrote:
| Eh, it just sounds like precise terminology to me. If they'd
| said: "I like my friends but sometimes it's more draining
| than fun to hang out with them. I dunno, maybe I'm hard to
| please. It's just so much work to find and keep friends," I'm
| sure no one would bat an eye. I read it about like that, but
| just described in technical terms.
|
| I'm an engineer and I often find engineering terms applicable
| to non-engineering topics; that doesn't mean anything about
| how I look at life other than that I've considered my
| situation from a number of angles.
| charlie0 wrote:
| Being alone and feeling lonely aren't the same thing. As someone
| who prefers solitude, I have often felt more alone around others
| than just being alone by myself. I have also realized that not
| fitting in can be turned into a strength. It provides a freedom
| of sorts to live outside the rules established by society. I can
| live my life how I want and don't have to worry about what others
| think. Of course, a modicum of civility is always required when
| dealing with others, but nonetheless, very freeing to come up
| with my own rules.
| sytelus wrote:
| Let me say this to everyone who is single and feeling alone: you
| did not made a mistake. Grass is not green on the other side. In
| most cases, it's exact opposite.
| starkd wrote:
| No offense, but that kind of misses the point. Did you read the
| essay at the link? It really is very well written.
| throwawaylonely wrote:
| rapfaria wrote:
| "I don't want to be alone, I want to be left alone"
| seydor wrote:
| For younger people loneliness is much harder. Having a
| partner/social creds is a social signal, and being lonely is seen
| as a negative signal. These are both self-reinforcing loops. In
| the case of lonely people, it often leads to permanent learned
| helplessness or rationalization of loneliness as a natural
| condition
|
| This is not going to change as long as loneliness is not talked
| about, and lonely people live in the closet.
| aortega wrote:
| "To be alone is the fate of all great minds, a fate deplored at
| times, but still always chosen as the less grievous of two
| evils."
|
| Arthur Schopenhauer
| lucidrains wrote:
| "Loneliness is not cured by human company. Loneliness is cured by
| contact with reality." - Anthony de Mello
| mjcohen wrote:
| For me, the main positive of the shutdown is a massive increase
| in the amount of improv I can do. I can easily take 3 improv
| classes via Zoom per week. Each class has a number of people
| which has remained fairly constant over the last year or two,
| forming a fairly cohesive mini-community. This applies also to
| jams.
|
| Here's an example. I live in Los Angeles. Through FaceBook, I
| found a bi-weekly improvised rap jam that is led by a doctor in
| Belfast. Very enjoyable and completely impossible without Zoom.
|
| I have also taken classes from world-famous teachers that I could
| have never otherwise met, as well as classes from Tucson, Las
| Vegas, Chicago, New York, Florida, and London.
|
| Doing this, alone is not alone.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| Given the advanced age of the author I'm reminded of a project in
| Bavaria where older people lived in an autonomous community.
| Healthy people as well as people with typical old age problems
| and with some assistance from caregivers, but for the most part
| the focus was on those people taking care for each other.
|
| I think it was generally considered successful. People were in
| good health, it seemed like a genuine way to get older people to
| have a social life that isn't just playing games in some nursing
| home and it kept them self-reliant which gives people a lot of
| dignity.
|
| I don't think there's really a clever answer to the philosophical
| loneliness that's also part of the article that people deal with
| even when they're around others but as far as physical and
| communal isolation goes I think projects that bring elderly
| people together and give them responsibility and active lives is
| a good thing. A necessary one even I think given the demographic
| changes almost every country goes through. Many 80+ year old
| women in particular will outlive their spouses.
| RichardHeart wrote:
| Go to gym. Do an activity with other people. Be kind. Lot's of
| other people would die to have your attention. Symbiosis.
| openknot wrote:
| For guys, martial arts is a pretty good activity for creating
| relationships with others.
|
| The downsides are that it can be expensive for membership fees,
| take a lot of commitment and time, and also be a competitive,
| high-pressure environment. Each of these can be mitigated to
| some extent, but it takes effort and independent thinking
| (especially when resisting the social pressures to be
| competitive).
|
| Other activities can include: rock climbing (though no personal
| experience), board games including chess (I heard lots of good
| anecdotal experiences with this), Dungeons and Dragons
| (minority opinion, but this can be tough to commit to due to
| the required time, often ~4 hours per week), other physical
| sports (e.g. pickup basketball if you have a skill at it), and
| volunteering. Book clubs can also be good places to meet others
| and have discussions.
|
| Committee activities can also be a good place to meet others. I
| suspect that many older adults join committees such as
| homeowner associations or parent-teacher associations,
| partially to meet other people and socialize. Outside of these,
| there are committees at smaller, local non-profits where people
| can also meet and socialize with others, while working toward a
| goal.
| weakfish wrote:
| +1 for rock climbing. It's an inherently social sport with
| the Belayer relationship, I've made many friends in college
| through just asking random folks to belay.
| Animats wrote:
| _Go to gym. Do an activity with other people._
|
| Get sick.
| [deleted]
| vinceguidry wrote:
| I have always had a tough time applying the tool of reason to the
| problem of loneliness. In a way, I don't feel like I've ever been
| lonely. Not that I have never felt the same way that people who
| do describe themselves as lonely feel. I have and still often do.
| The 'problem' is that I've always been able to isolate the reason
| I'm feeling that way and administer some kind of intervention.
| And I know, that getting older will not bring with it any greater
| problems than I have now.
|
| Is my soul yearning for spiritual connection? I've got a good
| friend for that. My libido looking for an exhilarating one?
| There's bars and the ubiquitous 'more-than-friend-but-not-quite-
| committed' friendship we all seem to have but never seem to
| really look to for that sort of thing. The least lonely person I
| know is in his late 70s. He's always talking to someone whenever
| I see him.
|
| But every American I know outside of my usual social circle seems
| to be painfully, debilitatingly lonely, and I can't make heads or
| tails of it. Perhaps most are trapped in a hell of looksism.
| Instagram has ruined their lives because they can't bring
| themselves to work that hard to look that good. Maybe they're too
| shy to cultivate third places. Perhaps they're looking for some
| kind of spiritual connection and, since American religion has so
| thoroughly shit the bed, they have absolutely zero idea of how to
| even approach it.
|
| It often seems like they just want to find someone almost exactly
| like themselves. I remember one guy I met at a bar, who wanted
| dearly to find his next best friend in me, would start berating
| me almost immediately after we started hanging out together. Like
| I didn't fit the role he wanted me to play in his life and that's
| gotta be my fault.
|
| The vagueness of the problem makes it so devilishly difficult to
| approach with reason. But just about any difference between what
| someone's life is like and what they want it to be seems to
| manifest in their psyche as loneliness. And the reason they
| themselves come up with is often just utterly counter-productive.
| But you can't challenge their reasoning head-on, it's like
| fighting the tides.
|
| It's a sad, quiet, seemingly uniquely American epidemic, borne
| out of our thoroughgoing insecurity and status-desiring.
| charlie0 wrote:
| I thoroughly agree that loneliness is specifically an issue
| with America. Here we are taught to value the individual above
| all else. While this provides nice benefits, it also has its
| downsides.
|
| Everywhere I look, most people in their 20's are focused on
| their careers, people in their 30's-40's are raising children,
| and by their 50's are basically home bodies. I myself am stuck
| with being focused on my career. I feel as if I take too much
| time off to be social, I will fall behind in the rat race.
|
| I'm comparing this against a multi-month trip I did in South
| America. I frequently encountered public transportation and so
| many more people walked. I found myself talking with random
| people just because we happened to be walking in the same
| direction or taking the same public transport or right next to
| each other at popular restaurants.
| stuxnet79 wrote:
| You seem to be applying a cultural slant to this. I'm curious,
| how does it differ outside of America in your perspective?
|
| I agree that part of the problem at least in America, is a
| mismatch in expectations caused by a media-infused, image-
| obsessed culture. There is a need to "perform", be larger than
| life and be interesting. It is incredibly suffocating and makes
| relationships more transactional than they should be.
| vinceguidry wrote:
| Other cultures just don't seem to be as relentlessly status-
| hungry. Like, I've met homeless people in Colombia with
| better self-esteem than well-off Americans. Like our visible
| affluence is eating us alive. Old women in a bunch of Asian
| countries gather together in public places for some activity
| or other, often something physically active like ping pong or
| dancing. America for the most part seems to have lost the
| concept of public space, every space is private and to be
| monetized unless explicitly deemed otherwise.
|
| This dynamic: "just about any difference between what
| someone's life is like and what they want it to be seems to
| manifest in their psyche as loneliness," just doesn't seem to
| be how people from other cultures process that difference.
| They don't externalize that difference in a way that makes
| themselves out to be the victim and deserving of better. They
| seem at least a little more willing to own up to their own
| role in it.
| petra wrote:
| >> Like, I've met homeless people in Colombia with better
| self-esteem than well-off Americans.
|
| That's interesting, can you expand on those Colombian
| people and why they have such high self-esteem ?
| vinceguidry wrote:
| I would hesitate before trying to explain Colombian
| culture. I've been three times and I can only scratch the
| surface. But I spotted a homeless guy in Colombia once
| working to repair a water pipe leak that was spilling a
| bunch of water out onto the street. It's hard to find
| Americans with that kind of pride of place. But just
| about everybody carried themselves with dignity over
| there.
| openknot wrote:
| >"Is my soul yearning for spiritual connection? I've got a good
| friend for that. My libido looking for an exhilarating one?
| There's bars and the ubiquitous 'more-than-friend-but-not-
| quite-committed' friendship we all seem to have but never seem
| to really look to for that sort of thing. The least lonely
| person I know is in his late 70s. He's always talking to
| someone whenever I see him."
|
| Academic research may be a good starting point. A 2021 study
| reports that ~29.5% of Americans aged 55 and older "were
| considered high in loneliness" in 2020 (source:
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34283657/). Loneliness was
| correlated with "those who reported depression, who were not
| married or in a relationship, who lived alone, and who were
| unemployed at the onset of the pandemic."
|
| Anecdotally, I found it unusually difficult to go to pubs for
| hookups when I was younger. I never once had a "'more-than-
| friend-but-not-quite-committed' friendship." I suspect it was
| partly due to race as an ethnic minority; there is an effect
| has been well-established from studies (source:
| https://www.npr.org/2018/01/09/575352051/least-desirable-
| how...) that there are negative preferences against men and
| women of a specific race in online dating. Factors largely out
| of one's control, from ethnicity to difficulties with picking
| up social cues, can contribute to a lack of relationships.
|
| To connect this to the previous study, where loneliness was
| correlated to those "who were not married or in a relationship,
| who lived alone," it's quite possible that a significant driver
| of the loneliness in the United States the lack of committed
| long-term relationships between people.
|
| The search for a solution to a lack of relationships by an
| individual can lead to many dangerous paths. It can tragically
| lead to extremism and terror attacks (such as the 2018 van
| attack in Toronto, source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-
| canada-54895219). It can lead to people to join movements such
| as the "manosphere" or "female dating strategy," where they
| feel less alone with their problems, but pick up bad habits
| that make it far more difficult to have a healthy relationship.
| I believe that these movements have contributed to emotional
| abuse in relationships and sexual assault by people who push
| boundaries.
|
| A starting solution I recommend is this:
|
| i) Recognize that many people are lonely because they can't
| create romantic relationships, or even friendships.
|
| ii) Instead of isolating them or alienating them, figure out
| why they can't create these relationships. Are they in good
| psychological health (e.g. would they have untreated
| depression, anxiety, ADHD, or grief)? Do they have social
| skills? How can they access readily-available treatment methods
| from a reputable source (i.e. a competent and experienced
| counsellor, versus a dating coach who exploits people who are
| lonely)?
|
| iii) Building on the previous step, ask: are they economically
| secure? Can they find a stable job where they can provide for
| themselves, which can treat the root causes of potential
| depression and anxiety (which also helps them find
| relationships and friends more easily)?
|
| Each step can be very hard, but I believe this can help reduce
| vagueness to some extent.
|
| However, there are unfortunately many edge cases where these
| steps don't work. Examples include severe and persistent mental
| health disorders; people who want a relationship but struggle
| greatly due to a physical or mental disorder; or people who
| don't want to help themselves. For at least some of these
| people, some countries offer "sexual surrogacy," where a
| licensed counsellor eventually provides physical intimacy in a
| controlled environment (source: https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-
| is-sexual-surrogacy), but I haven't read enough about it to
| tell if it's effective. It's tougher for what to do with people
| who don't want help, though.
|
| For the individual struggling with loneliness, I would
| recommend focusing on improving the stability of one's own life
| and working on social skills without studying pickup artistry.
| Good resources for improving social skills without pickup
| artistry are typically written by psychologists or
| psychiatrists with clinical experience, such as "Intimate
| Connections" by David Burns (same author as "Feeling Good," a
| reputable book on cognitive-behavioral techniques). At the
| least, a focus on financial independence and stability can be a
| good foundation to working on the other problems in life, as
| it's harder to be happy and create meaningful relationships
| with money problems.
| [deleted]
| vinceguidry wrote:
| > I never once had a "'more-than-friend-but-not-quite-
| committed' friendship."
|
| Did you really never have ongoing romantic tension with
| someone you interacted with regularly? It seems rather
| inevitable for young people to find themselves in one of
| these. Even the loneliest people I know have mustered up some
| kind of tension with someone, even if they were never able to
| act on it.
| openknot wrote:
| While respecting ethics (e.g. never asking someone where I
| was in a position of any power over, even if it was a
| volunteer student club), I respectfully asked out the
| people where I did feel that kind of tension (in other
| words, I always asked out the people who I had a crush on
| when I was a teen, except when there were professional
| boundaries).
|
| Unfortunately, I got turned down several times. One
| initially said yes, then quickly changed her mind within
| the hour, saying she wanted to avoid getting distracted
| from academics. So, I never had the opportunity to date in
| high school or my late teens, though I did have the chance
| in my early twenties.
|
| As an aside: From a research perspective, I'm unsure if the
| feelings were mutual in many of these cases. As the
| Scientific American reports [1]: "Men were much more
| attracted to their female friends than vice versa. Men were
| also more likely than women to think that their opposite-
| sex friends were attracted to them--a clearly misguided
| belief. In fact, men's estimates of how attractive they
| were to their female friends had virtually nothing to do
| with how these women actually felt, and almost everything
| to do with how the men themselves felt--basically, males
| assumed that any romantic attraction they experienced was
| mutual, and were blind to the actual level of romantic
| interest felt by their female friends."
|
| I suppose that if my current partner were to tragically and
| unexpectedly wish to break up, I may be able to enter a new
| relationship after being very sad for a while. However,
| learning from my teenage years, I would likely avoid dating
| friends even if I perceive tension (to avoid changing the
| friendship, as I have in the past), as I don't think there
| is a reliable way to figure out if someone is interested
| according to research.
|
| [1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/men-and-
| women-can...
| denton-scratch wrote:
| > Men were much more attracted to their female friends
| than vice versa.
|
| Interestingly, that goes against my experience. At
| university, there were a number of girls that I liked but
| considered way out of my class, that I later learned
| fancied the pants off me.
|
| There were also girls that I _knew_ fancied the pants off
| me, but I wasn 't having any of it, because I thought
| they were clingy, or too crazy (even for me). I'm pretty
| sure I dodged a couple of bullets back then.
| vinceguidry wrote:
| Ethnicity can be a hard barrier to overcome for men, I've
| noticed. Guys from certain parts of the world seem to
| have a tough time navigating American social norms around
| dating and such. Perhaps where they're from they never
| interacted socially with the opposite sex. So they have a
| really tough time connecting 'normally'. And it seems to
| build this big wall between themselves and women,
| unnecessarily.
| [deleted]
| temptest1 wrote:
| If it was about culture, ethnic men raised in the states
| would do fine. They are still heavily disadvantaged, it's
| mostly about women's extreme racial requirements in
| dating, which are often considered beyond criticism.
| throwawaylonely wrote:
| block_dagger wrote:
| Actual loner here. Never married, no kids, no desire for either.
| As Bukowski said, isolation is the gift.
| seydor wrote:
| > I have had the sense that my "real life," the place where I
| belong and where there is no loneliness, is somewhere else out
| there in the world, although I can't name or find it
|
| I found that virtual worlds like Second Life have a lot of old
| people. Those have been there for decades and their virtual
| friends are probably their most stable connection over time. Same
| goes for younger people who move around a lot and change
| friendships, loneliness leads them to seek virtual friends. I
| think that's why Zuck is interested in metaverse: Europe and
| Japan are already old, US, CA, China and the rich world will
| become old soon enough. Technology can provide a lot to people
| who can no longer travel etc.
| baby wrote:
| Talking about zuck, I can say that without facebook/whatsapp I
| wouldn't have kept in touch with old friends (nobody has the
| same email and phone number now). A few week ends ago I managed
| to organize a weekend out with some old friends and it was one
| of the best thing I've done in years. I highly recommend trying
| to get the old gang back together for a weekend or more if you
| can afford it. First step is to create a whatsapp group.
| snvzz wrote:
| We need to start thinking about doing something about the aging
| problem. The tools are here, it's a matter of getting it done.
| SENS foundation is trying just that[0].
|
| 0. https://www.sens.org/our-research/intro-to-sens-research/
| bowsamic wrote:
| I find it bizarre and unsettling that there is a big group of
| HN users who seem to be scared of death
| snvzz wrote:
| SENS isn't about death. It's about undoing aging.
|
| For as long as I am alive, I'd rather stay as young and
| healthy as possible. Wouldn't you?
| bowsamic wrote:
| No not really
| denton-scratch wrote:
| How can you "stay young", if you are in fact old?
|
| Youth isn't just a question of fitness and years. Youth
| pulls in recklessness, a belief in your own immortality, an
| uncertainty about who you are or what you're for, and a
| diminished awareness of the past (because you've
| experienced less of it). There's no medical treatment or
| fitness regime that will give those things back to you.
|
| If you even want them; the loss of those things, or at
| least some of them, might be considered wisdom.
| throwawaylonely wrote:
| If you're not, why not die now? If you get an infection that
| would kill you without medical attention, why not just let it
| kill you?
| denton-scratch wrote:
| I'm not scared of death, but there would be several people
| that would regret my passing.
|
| Also, when someone kills themself, it is normal (i.e. the
| expected response) to feel guilt and pain, even if nobody,
| including yourself, thinks you were in any way responsible.
|
| I've formally informed the health services that I don't
| want to be resuscitated in the event of a stroke or heart
| attack. If I get an infection, however, I'm not likely to
| die; Ebola is rather rare. Much likelier is that I'd end up
| disabled, in pain or unable to care for myself.
| bowsamic wrote:
| Just because I'm not scared of death doesn't mean I don't
| see any reason to live. I enjoy life and living. I would
| pursue treatments but there is eventually a limit past
| which I would not bother
| snvzz wrote:
| SENS is not about keeping people alive and miserable past
| that limit.
|
| It is about undoing aging, so that you can be young and
| healthy instead.
|
| Living longer is just a side effect of that, as aging
| kills people.
| bowsamic wrote:
| Yeah I don't really have any desire to be younger or
| healthier
| colechristensen wrote:
| I mean doubtful any solution is going to do anything besides
| extend the process.
| barry-cotter wrote:
| Sounds good to me. An extra ten healthy years would be pretty
| great.
| nazgulnarsil wrote:
| Focus on what you can do for others, not what others can do for
| you. Activities will gradually lose their luster as you age, if
| you are focused on what you get from them. In Buddhist terms:
| cultivate mudita, sympathetic joy in the joys of others. It is
| nigh impossible to make yourself happy, yet seemingly trivial to
| make others happy, if you are keeping an eye out for the
| opportunity.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| Hatred of self-interest is one of the worst aspects of human
| existence and is responsible for a non trivial amount of human
| suffering.
|
| Try to find a way to embrace and appreciate your self-interest.
| Humans are not evil just because of their egoism, and nothing
| about egoism is inherently evil.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| > Activities will gradually lose their luster as you age, if
| you are focused on what you get from them.
|
| Doing things for other is also activities, and you also seem to
| be focused on what you get (sympathetic joy) from that.
|
| You are right in that doing the same things for literally
| decades can get boring. Rethinking your life and trying
| different things is part of aging (including focusing on
| yourself, if what you did all your life was to do stuff for
| others)
| l33t2328 wrote:
| I've always thought that there seemed to be a meta-
| selfishness to that sort of thinking.
|
| It doesn't bother me at all, unless the person tries to also
| say that selfishness and selfish motivations are to be
| avoided.
| srge wrote:
| Your comment is simple yet powerful. I am saving it in my diary
| for later.
| techer wrote:
| Confelicity: Pleasure in another's happiness. Antonym:
| schadenfreude
| sbf501 wrote:
| This reminds me of the term "compersion", used by the
| polyamorous community to describe the feeling of joy from
| watching a loved partner fall in love or lust with another
| partner. Antonym: jealousy.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I have something slightly different thing in mind: a
| balancing act between your ideas/needs and others.. and a joy
| in negotiation. With freedom to evolve or quit the game. No
| obligations. Basically kid's play. I think it's a saner form
| of interactions. Lighter, deeper, more vibrant (well, in
| theory).
| enw wrote:
| Also Christianity, where self-seeking is one of the worst
| things you can strive for.
| l33t2328 wrote:
| I find it interesting that the implication is that you should
| strive to not be self seeking, because it's better for you.
| pfortuny wrote:
| That is a wrong view of Christianity (one of the most
| important things a Christian needs to do is self-
| examination).
|
| Or do you mean pride?
|
| One cannot be charitable if one does not know his or her own
| defects and virtues. And this is a lifelong exercise.
| lelele wrote:
| > yet seemingly trivial to make others happy, if you are
| keeping an eye out for the opportunity.
|
| Trivial? Would you expand on this? Any examples? Thank you.
| nazgulnarsil wrote:
| A kind word or act takes a moment of your time but can leave
| the other person thinking about it for days, weeks, years.
| You probably have memories of other people doing nice things
| for you.
| taylorius wrote:
| I'll add my own data point into the mix. I'm 49, have been
| married for 22 years, with kids who are either grown up, or well
| on their way. Throughout my life though, I have been an absolute
| loner in spirit. I grew up quite isolated, in the UK countryside,
| and learned to amuse myself early on. My first love was
| computers, which luckily has served me fairly well, career-wise.
| I haven't had many girlfriends, and felt very aware of this lack.
| When I met my wife, I married her more rapidly than I should
| have, if I'm honest. I had no confidence in myself regarding my
| ability to form intimate attachments to women, and thought
| something like "well if I'm married, then that's that problem
| sorted!". Not so much.
|
| Still, we've persevered, and made it work for 22 years. But I
| will soon be 50, and have chosen to view this round number as
| significant. I would like to start living life as I would like
| it, both career and relationship wise, and am currently trying to
| plan out what shape that might take. The stories and information
| in the comments here, are truly fascinating to me, the breadth of
| ideas being mentioned are a real breath of fresh air, and a great
| example of what makes Hacker News great (in my view), so thank
| you everyone.
| jjfoooo6 wrote:
| > I would like to start living life as I would like it, both
| career and relationship wise
|
| If you'd be comfortable sharing, why do you feel this is not
| something you can achieve with your partner?
| taylorius wrote:
| Sure, I can share - and needless to say, the vast majority of
| the problem is on my side. My wife is indeed a great woman -
| very emotionally focussed though, in quite an intense way,
| and highly intelligent in an intuitive way. She's honest and
| loyal though, and good looking. A real catch, in other words.
| The problem that I bring, is that I don't really have a core
| personality (at least, not one that anyone sees - I have my
| own inner thoughts but they can be rather dark, and need
| extensive filtering before being presented to the world at
| large). So I run "sub programs" to talk to other people on a
| level that is suitable to get along with them. I think
| everyone does this to an extent - I certainly do anyway, I
| always have.
|
| So the problem comes, because my wife is an exceptional
| empath, with what seems to me like almost supernatural
| intuition. And she sees through my little constructs in a
| second, and demands they be pushed aside, in order to get to
| know the "real me" beneath. Trouble is there is no "real me",
| apart from the rather dark, turbulent thoughts that churn the
| waters of my inner life. Therein lies the problem, a
| perpetual game of hide and seek, and I find it rather
| wearing. (Largely my own problem though, as I said).
|
| Apologies if the above sounds a bit weird, or off-putting or
| whatever. Anyway - you did ask! :-)
| jjfoooo6 wrote:
| I'm 35, am in therapy, just got out of a breakup, and have
| two good friends with a dads who divorced their moms at
| around your age. Since you've been receptive to my other
| comments I'll share a bit about how your comment strikes
| me.
|
| > I have my own inner thoughts but they can be rather dark,
| and need extensive filtering before being presented to the
| world at large
|
| This really sounds like a good thing to reality check with
| a therapist! Non-judgmental listening is a core piece of
| the service they provide.
|
| I've had similar feelings in the past. Having things you
| don't feel you can share will make you feel isolated.
| Saying these things out loud to someone in and of itself
| can be a load off. And I strongly suspect these things
| you're suppressing aren't as bad as you think.
|
| It's telling that your response has nothing bad to say
| about your wife. The issues you raised are really, really
| not going to be solved by leaving her.
|
| When I'm unhappy in a relationship being single feels like
| freedom. But a breakup is trauma. During mine I went
| through hell, my entire being was be screaming at me that
| I'd made the worst mistake of my life. The loneliness was
| profound. Self esteem plummeted. My ex-girlfriend went
| through hell too.
|
| As it happens, my breakup needed to happen - I want a
| family, my ex-gf could not commit to having one with me.
| I'm on the other side now and feel good about the decision.
| But I still miss her all the time. And this was a
| relationship of only a few years.
|
| Lastly, on my friends with dads who have divorced their mom
| in his 50's - this decision will permanently change your
| relationship with your children. One doesn't talk to his
| dad at all, the other tolerates but no longer respects his
| dad. Are those scenarios possible?
|
| Good luck. Maybe it is that you have to leave your wife.
| But do your due diligence that this is the case. It's a
| button you can't unpress.
| taylorius wrote:
| I think you're right - I will talk to someone before
| doing anything drastic.
|
| I've taken more than enough of people's time today (thank
| you and others for your insights - they are really
| useful). I did want to clarify something about my
| thoughts though - it's not that they're always dark and
| horrible at all - but they are rather opaque to an
| outsider. As I mentioned, I grew up alone for large
| swathes of time, and I learned to have conversations with
| myself, as a form of companionship. Such conversations
| form my inner life - but its difficult to let someone
| else in on them. As an example, here's Bill Burr with a
| story about muffins, which I relate to so much - it still
| makes me cry with laughter even though I've watched it
| about 1000 times. :-)
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnOg01N1u3w
| jjfoooo6 wrote:
| There's nothing anyone appreciates more than a listening
| ear to unsolicited advice on the internet :)
|
| Thanks for the clip, Bill Burr is hilarious
| seunosewa wrote:
| Let her in anyway. She might not leave, but if she does,
| you'll know that you gave yourself a chance to be your true
| 'dark' self with her. Your dark self may be treatable,
| even.
| taylorius wrote:
| I don't know that I want to treat it - it's the core of
| me after all, and I've only ever felt "broken" in a
| marriage situation. And it's not like my thoughts are
| always dark anyway, it varies. It's more like a
| conversation between two people, with 100% trust, and
| where nothing is off limits - but it all takes place in
| my head. So it's difficult to share, because it's self
| contained and dynamic. As I mentioned, I grew up entirely
| by myself for much of the time, and I suppose my internal
| conversations grew to become my primary source of
| entertainment. It's hard to just "fix" that, it's who I
| am.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| /me 65, two kids, two grandkids, two marriages, each of about
| 15 years. Both times the wife divorced me, rather than vv. (and
| no doubt that says something about me). Both times the
| relationship was rocky, but I would have stuck it out were it
| not for being sued by my supposedly-trusted life partner.
|
| I haven't had many girlfriends either, but I haven't felt that
| as a "lack". I've never had many friends either - usually not
| more than three or four good friends at any time.
|
| I now live alone, and I don't see many people. I talk to my
| exes fairly regularly, and I'm on good terms with my kids - but
| they live faraway. I'm not "lonely", though, in the sense that
| being alone makes me sad or regretful. I'm fine with my own
| company. I like to crack jokes and talk politics, so I miss
| those occasions; I miss cuddling a warm woman; and I'd like to
| have someone living with me, to pick me up if I fall over, and
| to look after me if I get ill. But those things are basically
| transactional, not about loneliness; I could pay someone to
| provide those services.
|
| I'm not a "loner" - I like people, and people like me. I'm not
| shy. I think it's just that I find that cultivating casual
| friendships in the hope they might blossom is a lot of work, so
| I don't cultivate many. And the idea of having two girlfriend
| relationships at the same time - i.e. while one is ending and
| the other beginning - fills me with dread, and I've never done
| that.
|
| Like you, I've spent my career in IT. I've _never_ made a good
| friend at work. I mean, I 've made "friends" with people at
| work, and even brought them to my home and made dinner for
| them; but they were never _good_ friends. I 'm a bit
| idiosyncratic in my tastes, and many of my attitudes and
| opinions are quite leftfield. These work-friends were all very
| straight, by my standards. I've no objection to people being
| "normal" - by definition, the majority of people are - that's
| no obstacle to being friends, for me. But it may have been an
| obstacle for them.
| taylorius wrote:
| It's very interesting what you say, how you miss certain
| aspects of companionship. Do you find the maintenance of
| friendships and of intimate relationships difficult in the
| same way? Personally I find almost no overlap between the two
| categories.
|
| I've actually found most of my most intense friendships via
| computers - though those are few, and to be honest I've
| mellowed in my middle age. I'm trying my hand at making
| friends through social activities more these days - I
| definitely enjoy conversing, and sharing a laugh with them.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| > Do you find the maintenance of friendships and of
| intimate relationships difficult in the same way?
|
| I don't find it difficult to maintain an intimate
| relationship, until the writ arrives! I can compromise, I
| can listen (up to a point - I am a man, after all), and I'm
| pretty tolerant.
|
| In both friendships and intimate relationships, I expect
| two-way trust. The difference is that in an intimate
| relationship, I'm relying on that trust; I don't place the
| same reliance on a good friend. I think it would be unkind
| (and unfriendly) to lean that heavily on a friend.
|
| I lost my closest and oldest friend when he stole something
| from me (it actually was my partner's, which made it much
| worse, because she had relied on my trust in him). But in
| general, I wouldn't be that put-out if a good friend broke
| trust; people have lives to live, they make commitments to
| new people, and they make new friends that might take a
| dislike to you. These things happen, but I don't expect
| them to happen in a committed relationship.
|
| But they _do_ happen; so clearly my expectations are still
| out of whack with reality.
| bradlys wrote:
| It really doesn't say much about you that you got divorced.
| Women initiate ~70% of divorces and 90% for college educated
| women. Personally - I don't know any college educated couples
| who had the man initiate. It's really uncommon.
| simonswords82 wrote:
| Hi fellow UK person.
|
| Sounds like you're just about to make a relatively large
| (perhaps dramatic?) change to your home and work life. Some
| people would call that a mid-life crisis but I think it's
| people realising the shortness of life and making sure they
| don't waste whatever they have left of it.
|
| Hope whatever the outcome it's a net positive :)
| taylorius wrote:
| Hey fellow UK person!
|
| I may be on the brink, as you say, about to jump - or I may
| just be all talk. I'm not sure myself, if I'm honest :-)
| Though I am sure that I definitely prefer solitude + a number
| of friends now and again, rather than one super intense soul-
| mate all the time.
|
| Thanks for the good wishes, and best of luck to you too!
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| If you can, I wonder if tried a period of separation, maybe
| 6 months? To test the waters. My gut instinct is you may
| find divorce is not what you wanted after all, just some
| time and space to realize that.
| jes wrote:
| I am 62. About fifteen years ago I could have written almost
| exactly what you have written above. I blew up my long term
| marriage because of my fucked up thinking. It was a horrible
| mistake and one that I regret essentially every day.
|
| Of course, maybe it's all different for you. I mean that. I'm
| only suggesting something to check.
|
| Have a look at the material under "Nice Guy Syndrome" by Dr.
| Robert Glover. [1] Maybe get his audio book "No More Mr. Nice
| Guy" and listen to it for a bit, and see how well it fits or
| does not fit your situation.
|
| [1] https://drglover.com
| sillysaurusx wrote:
| The flip side is that you know now that it was a mistake.
| Would you still be happy today if you hadn't left, but
| without knowing it was the right choice?
|
| Happiness is a fickle thing.
| taylorius wrote:
| I'm sure I fit that "Nice Guy Syndrome" profile to a
| considerable extent. I'll take a look at the audio book.
| Thanks a lot for the advice!
| hevomad wrote:
| RektBoy wrote:
| te wrote:
| https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1429941683362357250.html
| dazc wrote:
| Be careful about what you are considering throwing away. I'm a
| bit older and when people ask me why I'm not married I reply
| simply that all the best women were snapped up in their 20's.
| starkd wrote:
| I once heard someone put it, as to why he wasn't married,
| that he wants what he can't have, and he can have what he
| doesn't want.
| ta44445 wrote:
| This resonates a bit with me. I'm at an earlier point in life
| (25 now), so I realize giving advice may be naive, but I feel
| inclined to share my experience so far still.
|
| I share the part of your story about liking computers and
| getting a wonderful career out of it - I currently work
| remotely in a low cost of living country making six USD
| figures, so I'm quite well into the 1% income bracket locally.
| Up until maybe a year or so ago, I'd been in 3 relationships,
| all multi-year, including a long distance one during
| university. It always felt that I had been missing out on the
| "single guy" part of life, and looking back now, my
| relationships weren't all that fulfilling; mostly they were
| probably a way to not be alone, although I still felt alone,
| and was ok with that.
|
| This past ~year I've been out casually with many women (maybe
| something like 15?) and... It's fun, but obviously it's not
| fulfilling other than for ego reasons. I think the main
| positive thing in it is that I know it's "just ok" and don't
| have to wonder about it; if I had committed early on this would
| likely be something that would always be on my mind. What if I
| was letting my best life go by? Well, I haven't found ultimate
| happiness, but I have found comfort in the fact that I looked
| for it at least, and won't regret not having done so.
|
| For me, casual relationships aren't really fulfilling, and
| committed ones aren't either. I've learned to be alone and even
| a bit alien from early on, and don't resent it.
| xtiansimon wrote:
| Im 51 and still single. I'd only offer that the biological
| clock is real concern for women, and largely drives many
| realities and possibilities of their decision making process.
| If you're dating and unsatisfied, maybe consider a journey of
| deep thoughts about having a family. Seek mentors or therapy
| if that's what works for you. Then _maybe_ you and the women
| you are dating will grow closer with shared experience and
| renewed sense of the human condition.
| taylorius wrote:
| Not at all naive, anyone might have a piece of the puzzle, no
| matter what their age is. It sounds to me like you've done a
| better job than I did, exploring relationships with women,
| and figuring out what works for you, so hats off! Tbh I wish
| I had've had access to the sort of information that's
| available online now, even just as a window into the breadth
| of people's views - they can redefine what is a "viable"
| viewpoint or lifestyle, and help a person find their way to a
| life that makes them happy.
| jjfoooo6 wrote:
| I'm a bit older (35) and what I've come to view about my
| earlier relationships is that I didn't invest much in them.
| Didn't share my feelings, didn't make myself vulnerable. At
| the time I thought I just wasn't meeting the right person,
| now I feel there were probably a dozen women I went out with
| that could have been terrific partners.
|
| This is not to criticize embracing being single at 25. It's a
| good opportunity to figure out who you are and what you like.
| But the empty "a way to not be alone" relationships also
| happens in short term relationships and casual dating. You
| get what you put in.
|
| > I haven't found ultimate happiness
|
| You will not find this, it does not exist, and it is
| certainly not obtained by catching some mythical "the one."
| Unreasonable expectations will doom any relationship.
| taylorius wrote:
| BTW, I 100% sympathise with being alone and alien. Alien is
| an apt description, actually. I came to love the delicious
| distance, and feeling of otherness. It was a slightly
| depressive feeling, but very comforting. Not many people can
| appreciate that, I've found.
| starkd wrote:
| It also helps to know you don't have to be "joined at the
| hip" to your partner all the time.
| lr4444lr wrote:
| Strong predictors of good and bad marriage partners do exist,
| but I'd caution you against making yourself, wife, and children
| unhappy for thinking the grass will be greener by blowing up
| your marriage. Divorce courts have seen many a couple who
| thought they were star crossed lovers bitterly at one another's
| throats. Human beings all have flaws that become painfully
| apparent once you move in with them and thr "honeymoon" phase
| of the relationship is over. If your spouse supports you
| emotionally, respects you, and is dependable, you have
| something not so easy to come by. If your kids are grown, maybe
| you just need some time alone to get away? Talk to her about
| it.
| taylorius wrote:
| Thank you for your advice, and I take your point about the
| divorce courts, but please don't think that we haven't
| talked. The opposite is very much the case.
| ericmay wrote:
| Please talk to a therapist or counselor before making any
| decisions. It sounds like you need someone to help talk through
| emotions, your plans, your desires, etc, and a trained
| professional will be able to help here. It's not a sign of
| weakness, and these people really can help you make great
| decisions and really iron out what it is that you want, what
| the costs are for different decisions, etc. and there isn't
| much to lose, only more information and better decision making
| to be gained.
|
| Think of it like hiring a coach. Lebron James has a coach. Tia
| Toomey has a coach. The worlds most successful business leaders
| have coaches. It's alright to hire one who can work with you on
| making your life better. Best of luck!
| taylorius wrote:
| That's great advice - I had a therapist for a couple of
| years, but stopped during covid. I think I will try to find
| another though - 100% worth it, as you say.
| jjfoooo6 wrote:
| Consider also a couples therapist, all the same rationale
| applies.
|
| In either case, read up on the process for finding one that
| works you (and maybe your partner). Make sure it's someone
| you respect. There's a wide variety in quality, and if it's
| someone who you do not take seriously it will not be a good
| use of time.
|
| Good luck
| taylorius wrote:
| Thank you very much for your replies to what I said -
| it's good advice, and I'm grateful you would take the
| time to offer it!
| justrudd wrote:
| I was talking with my sister a couple of days ago, and we started
| talking about being alone.
|
| She is an extrovert's extrovert. When things were locked down for
| her, she got really, really depressed. At one point, she didn't
| even care if she got COVID because she was slowly going insane
| not being around people everyday. Zoom, texting, etc. didn't work
| for her. So for her, alone == loneliness.
|
| I am on the total opposite end of that spectrum. I can go days
| without speaking to anyone. Usually Thursday afternoon till
| Tuesday morning when my first required meeting is. For me, alone
| == bliss. I LOVE the self checkout lanes at grocers. Don't even
| have to feign small talk with the checker anymore.
|
| Anyway, during the conversation she asked whether X was the last
| person I was in a relationship with back in 2017. And in thinking
| about it, other than some random dinners, I haven't been in a
| relationship for 5 years. I hadn't even realized it had been 5
| years. My best friend at the time moved out of state in 2019, and
| I've not talked to them since. I do have one friend that still
| lives near me. We'll text, but rarely see each other (they have
| an autoimmune disorder. So they're very careful because of
| COVID). Other than saying "hi" to my neighbors when we happen to
| be checking the mail at the same time, I rarely see people
| outside of Zoom meetings. I started wondering if I should be
| lonely, and I'm really not. At this point, I'm afraid of what
| would happen if I really tried to cultivate a relationship
| (romantic or platonic) with someone. On the flip side, I'm
| wondering how much further I need to go to reach full hermit...
|
| On the bright side, I got to play with Twilio. I figured with my
| lack of human interactions, I should probably have a "dead man's
| switch" checking on me. So I've got an app that will text me
| every couple of days. If I don't reply back within a certain time
| frame, it'll call a couple of people and tell them they might
| want to have a wellness check done on me :)
| 0xRusty wrote:
| This situation sounds quite similar to me. In my mid 30s now
| and the COVID pandemic has pretty much killed off the social
| life I used to have. A group of us moved from the UK to Canada
| about the same time 10 years ago and for a few years we used to
| do everything together. We'd be that big group at a restaurant
| on a Friday night, ordering cocktails and sat there for 3+
| hours that everyone else rolls their eyes at. Someone would
| always be up for doing something at the weekend and no one was
| ever really alone. Today that group chat has gone cold. The
| last text message was from about Dec 2019. No one wants to do
| anything anymore, some have got married, some have had kids,
| some have bought that cabin up in the sticks and spend weekends
| there.
|
| I go to the movies alone now. Instead of going to restaurants
| with a group I now sit alone in McDonald's or maybe a ramen bar
| if I'm feeling fancy. I'm a loner, I'm not really interested in
| romantic relationships, I might get a dog one of these days but
| the time isn't right at the moment. Do I feel sad? Not really.
| I've kind of resigned myself to this realization that this is
| the way it's going to be. This is my life . It's lonely
| socially and I don't have a huge number of friends left, but
| I'm super busy at work. I'm in (and actively leading) teams
| calls from 9am to 6pm, monday-friday, literally non stop. I get
| home exhausted.
|
| My solution to all of this - VR. My oculus quest headset
| provides me with a great outlet on those fairly rare occasions
| I feel sand and lonely and need to reach out. I can play poker
| with a table full of people often with exciting and colourful
| lives of their own. I can watch a movie with a theatre full of
| people making witty or insightful comments at just the right
| time. I can play 1 on 1 mini golf with a stranger and have some
| deep interesting chats for an hour or so.
|
| For me this is enough.
| agumonkey wrote:
| After spending 15-20 years in introversion mode, I felt back
| the chill side of being with others. But at times I sense the
| isolation bliss.. I'd feel slightly lighter and freer when in
| the toilet or biking/hiking. Odd. Part of it comes from a need
| for depth .. and being with people you wonder how they feel, if
| they're ok, why did they think or say this but you can't
| communicate (or extremely rarely) so it piles up as a
| frustrating void turning into stress.
| devnull3 wrote:
| The thing I fear most is not loneliness but getting old and
| loosing senses (eye-sight, hearing, movement etc).
|
| I can't imagine what I will do. Can't even read books or listen
| to music, enjoy occasional TV. Its a lose-lose situation.
| dominotw wrote:
| euthanasia?? thats my plan.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| How do you plan to euthanase yourself?
|
| Exit International recommend Nembutal (which is also used by
| Dignitas). But it's the very devil to buy; dark-markets
| sometimes offer it, bit it's fabulously expensive, and the
| sellers never have a trading record.
|
| I'm told that hanging yourself from a doorknob is fairly
| quick and quite painless, but it's a problem for anyone that
| discovers you, or is with you when you do it. And it's hard
| to be sure that some idiot won't try to resuscitate you.
| NalNezumi wrote:
| I was expecting some wisdom, at least some insight or sympathy
| from the article, supposed to be written by 80 year old.
|
| All I now feel is pity for her; early in her essay she snobs on
| "people feeling lonely around loving families" - comparing them
| to orphans that know true loneliness (and by the tone, she too).
| Then just a paragraph or two later she reveals she had a family;
| husband, kids and grandchildren. A couple of paragraphs later she
| also reveals she have "friends closeby she can visit weekly".
|
| I feel pity because she seems to be so self absorbed (diva) in
| her loneliness; her suffering is special, gives her insight,
| don't you dare to understand it. her description of her behavior
| eery reminds me of my friend who self claim "the most introvert
| person" and love for solitude while it's clear that she longs for
| human contact behind the mask of "comfortable with solitude"; if
| you dare question her introvert identity you can except fierce
| resistance, almost like if you attacked some radicals
| political/religious belief.
|
| And after painfully getting to the end of it, she rabble about
| statistic she obviously haven't read carefully enough (her take
| on the increase in suicide in Japan due Covid is embarrassingly
| off and irrelevant to the point she was trying to make)
|
| And to no ones surprise, the solution is again "authority should
| do *something*".
|
| Frankly, from the picture she have painted of the lonely man that
| pride himself of his solitude (and suffering), her vague call for
| the authority to do something seems shallow and hollow
| throwawaylonely wrote:
| tasty_freeze wrote:
| It isn't a how-to article or a flowchart of how to age, it is a
| rumination on her life and the role solitude and isolate have
| had in shaping her. While turning over what she thinks about
| her life, she delves into contradictory positions where both
| seem true to her; this isn't a flaw, all of us have such
| notions.
|
| I'm not sure how old you are, but as someone approaching
| retirement age, my thoughts are increasingly turning to such
| matters. I'm in good health currently but having watched the
| generation before me age and pass away, I know the spectrum of
| possibilities that awaits. I have no fear of being dead, but a
| realistic fear of what old age will be like: living in pain,
| loss of energy and desire, bad eyesight and hearing, mental
| diminishment to the point of confusion, repeated bouts of grief
| from the deaths of family and friends, and the knowledge that
| the process is a ratchet that can't be turned back or stopped
| (at least not yet).
|
| Anyway, I hope I have the mental clarity to write something so
| thoughtful when I'm 80.
| xbar wrote:
| I strongly agree.
|
| As someone who is aging, and who lost an adult child during
| covid, I can say that I face these last decades (I hope) with
| a wary eye toward loneliness. Such introspection leads me to
| want to invest more deeply in the relationships that are
| strong, and those that I would like to be stronger.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| DeathArrow wrote:
| I can't share a sad story, like many do here. I'm in my 40s,I
| have a wife and two kids, and I am not feeling alone, strange,
| alien or depressed.
|
| I even haven't felt alone when I was actually alone. I am always
| busy doing something or thinking about something.
|
| Living in a relatively poor country, being from a relatively poor
| family I had and still have to fight for a better future for me
| and my kids. That only and I am too busy to feel depressed. Add
| to that relations with friends and family, various hobbies and
| I've booked my time for the next 100 years.
|
| Why do I share this? Because I think it will help people who feel
| depressed, sad, lonely to have activity, being it a job, a hobby
| or volunteering for something. That lets them less time to be sad
| and involves them with many other people, thus making them less
| sad or alone.
|
| Of course, too much activity, too many social contacts can have
| other negative effects, so you have to find a balance.
| viksit wrote:
| My 2c.
|
| Offer people something. Whatever it is. Fitness. Intelligence.
| Humor. Pick what you're good at. And then find those who'd like
| it.
|
| It's not always about you, it's about others. Age IMHO isn't a
| barrier in this.
| fuzzfactor wrote:
| Offer hospitality.
|
| To those whose company can be cherished together.
| the_only_law wrote:
| As someone who often has offered humor, I find you just end up
| becoming a sideshow.
| [deleted]
| ffwd wrote:
| I think we can't trust our emotions. Evolutionary speaking it was
| probably a good idea for the brain to send a signal for us to be
| with the group so that we don't stray off alone, and as such this
| manifested in some brain function that sends the signal of
| loneliness like the OP describes from his school days.
|
| However I think the issue is that we think these emotions tell us
| something grander about our lives but I don't think they do. I
| think they are like when you put your hand on a hot stove, the
| neurons fire and you feel pain. Loneliness as described in the
| blog post is just as fleeting and biological/instant as this.
|
| I think even a person who is surrounded by people all the time
| can suddenly get this emotion of loneliness if he suddenly finds
| himself alone and everyone else is out to a party. Even more
| evidence that it is probably just a fleeting biological response
| like any other. It's in _combination_ with analytical skills and
| abstract reasoning that this biological response takes root and
| becomes something more than it actually was evolutionary, and
| thus becomes a bigger deal than it actually is.
|
| It is a lack of bigger goals and short-medium term goals /
| meaning that excaserbates the analyzing of the loneliness
| response. And that's the great sadness of human life imo, we
| basically have a bunch of primal emotional responses + an
| abstract story telling and meaning driven neocortex which aren't
| really compatible with each other directly and do not communicate
| with each other in the same language when they are actually 2
| separate physical systems.
|
| One must not takes ones emotions seriously but rather always
| analyze in the abstract and then come to some sort of peace with
| the life one has and also plan for the future and look into the
| past. Emotions like loneliness should be seen as mere guides and
| not tadpoles imo.
| baby wrote:
| > I think even a person who is surrounded by people all the
| time can suddenly get this emotion of loneliness if he suddenly
| finds himself alone and everyone else is out to a party
|
| Reminds me of some story I heard (would be great if someone has
| a source) that you can spot who has more chance of dying of
| suicide in social graphs, because they are connected to
| (perhaps many) people but are not part of a single clique
| (group)
| burglekutt wrote:
| Agree. Our emotions are not adapted for the world we've built,
| yet they almost have superuser access to our physiology and
| meaning-making. Usually your neocortex follows the emotions and
| makes stories that support the emotion, and that can be tragic
| because the emotion often gets stuck on a false alarm.
|
| Getting the neocortex somewhat more in control seems to be a
| difficult and lifelong (but worthwhile) skill to develop.
| Witness the lucrative self-help industry for the scale of the
| problem/opportunity.
| kromem wrote:
| AI companionships for the elderly is going to be a beyond massive
| market by the time we're all old.
|
| Sometimes we just need people to listen, and in that AI will
| exceed most humans, who are generally just waiting for their
| chance to have someone else listen to them.
|
| I'm starting to see the initial beginnings of that market, and
| already the reviews are eye opening. People gushing over how much
| of a difference a text-chat (and not a great one at that) AI was
| during the pandemic, etc.
|
| When they are actually talking using voices like the ones
| Microsoft just showcased, with avatars past the uncanny valley,
| available 24/7, remember details, etc?
|
| We're approaching a world I think beyond most of our imaginations
| faster than we realize.
|
| There's a whole host of problems we'll inherit as generations
| pass that they didn't have to deal with, but other problems they
| did may not be ours to bear.
| kareemsabri wrote:
| Do you have any evidence for this claim? Do old people want to
| talk to robots?
| mongol wrote:
| Interesting. It made me think about the difference between VR
| and AR. AI as augmenting social relations, could that be
| something, and how could it work?
| didericis wrote:
| The only healthy use for AI I see is in determining likely
| long term compatibility and helping people find each other,
| but that's potentially dangerous/could backfire or lead to
| severe abuses of power.
|
| I love VR/think it's a much better alternative to socializing
| than text based async communication or video chat, but I
| don't think it's a good substitute for real world
| relationships.
| m463 wrote:
| I think it will be video games or their descendants.
| nowherebeen wrote:
| Lots of my friends have been talking about it for years.
| Gaming is going to be nuts by the time we are 70 and it's
| going to be multiplayer as well. Keeping our brains active
| will be key to keeping us functioning.
| asiachick wrote:
| As seen in THX 1138
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0YkPnwoYyE
| guelo wrote:
| You're talking about machines that pass the turing test.
| General intelligence. We're not close yet.
| moconnor wrote:
| I disagree, humans don't need another equivalent intelligence
| in order to feel love and friendship towards it. My favourite
| tongue-in-cheek example: humans will feel love and kinship
| toward cats who can't talk and to all appearances often
| couldn't care less about them.
| bigger_inside wrote:
| also, role-play RPGs have demonstrated quite well that
| people fall in love with well-scripted characters with
| otherwise quite mechanical interaction.
| [deleted]
| didericis wrote:
| How about we not do that and try to actually cultivate real
| life communities and families through more leadership, planned
| activities, persistent encouragement, etc.
|
| I'm kind of tired of the commodification of anything and
| everything. Communities aren't just supposed to be these
| bureaucratically labelled abstract co-locations of people
| mediated by a billion different services, you're supposed to
| actually try to get to know your neighbors. Learning _how_ to
| listen, trying to _teach_ how to listen, and being brave enough
| to do both is incredibly enriching.
|
| With the rise in remote work, that should be easier than ever.
| Why don't we try to sort ourselves into locations where we have
| optimal mixes in personalities/interests for solid communities
| of all ages and _put in the work required to understand and
| relate to each other better_.
| 9530jh9054ven wrote:
| Perhaps but I would surmise that the people that would
| benefit from being in those communities would naturally form
| irregardless of the distractions of commodified
| companionship.
|
| But that ignores the ones that unwilling or incapable of
| joining into the communities you describe. Wouldn't this
| substitution of a human connection be of positive benefit to
| all involved then?
| didericis wrote:
| I don't think companionship can be commodified, and I think
| any attempt to do so would be the equivalent of an opiate.
| While there may be specific contexts where it could have
| utility, I think it's far healthier to encourage those who
| lack the inclination or willingness to join communities to
| do so. That's why I mentioned leadership. I think we have a
| responsibility to give lots of opportunities and
| encouragement for those lacking the initiative or will to
| socialize, and should try to diminish a lot of the status
| barriers and animosities preventing such socialization.
|
| We've had many decades of psychological and behavioral
| science now. Instead of using it to get people to click
| buttons for hours and talk to a screen, maybe we could
| figure out how to use it to encourage healthier behavior.
| 9530jh9054ven wrote:
| I don't know about actual companionship, but I'd say that
| one could commercialize the facade of one. Youtube and
| Twitch's live streaming mechanisms certainly seem to push
| it; a few dollars to briefly interact and hold the
| attention of the streamer's attention. At the far end I'd
| wonder if even prostitution could arguably fit under that
| idea of commercializing intimacy.
|
| > I think it's far healthier to encourage those who lack
| the inclination or willingness to join communities to do
| so. That's why I mentioned leadership. I think we have a
| responsibility to give lots of opportunities and
| encouragement for those lacking the initiative or will to
| socialize, and should try to diminish a lot of the status
| barriers and animosities preventing such socialization.
|
| It's a noble idea, but begs the question why a community
| would want to have responsibility to individuals that
| they may not want to have in their presence in the first
| place.
|
| ... Amusingly it also it just now occurs to me now that
| what you describe sounds similar religion, specifically
| to the the Abrahamic faiths and their derivatives.
| didericis wrote:
| Yes, there are ways to try to commercialize intimacy, but
| they're horrible and don't actually achieve it.
|
| > It's a noble idea, but begs the question why a
| community would want to have responsibility to
| individuals that they may not want to have in their
| presence in the first place.
|
| If you help build up the people around you into better
| people, and get to know them, they tend to reciprocate.
| It can take a very long time, not everyone reciprocates
| equally, they may be coming from a very different place
| that's hard to understand, and it can be painful. But
| it's intrinsically rewarding to pursue the companionship
| of others genuinely, as hurt as you might get doing so.
| What you gain when you're honest makes up for it. Trying
| to do so in the proper manner takes constant reevaluation
| and work, but we're not here to just sit in front of a
| computer and buy stuff, we're here to interact with those
| around us and try to get as close as we can to
| fulfillment.
| Tenoke wrote:
| >How about we not do that and try to actually cultivate real
| life communities and families through more leadership,
| planned activities, persistent encouragement, etc.
|
| How about we don't ignore things that can help actual people
| and leave them worse off just because in theory there are
| also nicer sounding solutions.
| panda-giddiness wrote:
| > How about we don't ignore things that can help actual
| people and leave them worse off just because in theory
| there are also nicer sounding solutions.
|
| I appreciate this approach in general, but it's worth
| remembering that proposed solutions can feel right without
| actually being right. Indeed, these proposals are often
| more dangerous than those that are obviously wrong since
| they effect undeserved complacency.
|
| Implicitly you have assumed that AI companions could
| actually help the elderly stave off their loneliness, but
| is there any evidence that this assumption is true?
| Suppose, for example, that AI companions wouldn't actually
| help at all, but whatever company develops the software
| markets it as effective anyway. Some local government might
| read the advertisement and decide to buy a subscription to
| their software rather than budget for a community center.
| Ironically, the net effect would be to make the elderly
| even lonelier.
| didericis wrote:
| I'm not sure I'm interpreting you correctly, but if you're
| claiming what I'm talking about is just theoretical, real
| life communities have existed throughout the entirety of
| our species.
|
| That doesn't mean there isn't a place for companion AIs, I
| just think it's horrible to consider them as anything other
| than a narcotic. They might work as a replacement for
| companionship in tragic situations where there are no other
| options, but there are 7 billion people on the planet. I
| don't see how it's impractical to encourage people to hang
| out with each other.
| panaffa wrote:
| I agree with the sentiment, but tbh a lot of people
| suffer alone on this planet and designing societal
| structures to serve absolutely everyone's emotional needs
| would be impossible. An AI would be perfect for all the
| misfits, elderly, loners, disabled, "ugly," outcasts,
| etc, right?
| didericis wrote:
| Think about what you're saying a bit. Why are the
| "others" you're describing destined to be alone? At the
| very least, couldn't they have each other?
|
| It's easier and more rewarding to just be more
| compassionate to others, and I don't think it's
| impossible to design social structures that at least make
| some attempt to serve everyone's emotional needs. Whether
| they'll be successful is circumstantial, and I don't
| think it's possible to make everyone perfectly content
| and with the perfect companions all the time, but we can
| encourage a culture of genuine curiosity and care for
| others that tries to move in that direction.
|
| Giving is only draining to those who are still in an
| insecure and narcissistic phase of emotional development.
| It's extremely rewarding to give to others and help meet
| their needs and encourage growth, regardless of status
| difference.
| Tenoke wrote:
| Real life communities have existed yet we still have
| lonely people so suggesting we dont work on a solution
| that helps them because those exist seems like cruelty
| borne out of idealism.
|
| >I don't see how it's impractical to encourage people to
| hang out with each other.
|
| You are now writing as if you just promoted communities
| while your original comment I replied to specifically
| started with 'How about we not do that'.
| didericis wrote:
| My original comment was advocating we not create
| companion AIs and try to substitute real companionship
| with robots, and I was in fact trying to promote the
| creation of real communities.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| I disagree. Maybe because I've worked with computers for my
| entire career. The _last_ thing I want to do when I 'm old is
| interact with technology. I'd much rather have a dog.
| postalrat wrote:
| You are interacting with users here. What if we were all
| bots?
| throwawayboise wrote:
| I won't be here when I retire.
| vmception wrote:
| yeah everyone imagines theyre going to be on some boring
| tropical island just because the water is shallow and
| turqoise around the edges instead of scrolling on the
| same 3 sites and maybe coding something on the side
| Angostura wrote:
| What if we're all _dogs_? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_
| the_Internet,_nobody_knows_...
| xmprt wrote:
| Impossible to say until you're actually old. If you're under
| 60 you still have tons of people in your age group to talk to
| every day. Once you hit 80 and 90, that will probably change.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| My father interacted with a lot of people, until he was
| about 70; then the number fell off pretty quickly, and he
| started going to a lot of funerals. When he died, aged 103,
| noone at his funeral was an old friend, they were all
| descendants or friends and relatives of descendants. All
| the old friends had died off.
|
| Men die younger than women, on the whole; so I guess lonely
| old people are predominantly women.
| frontman1988 wrote:
| Yeah we will probably see some whacky things come out of Japan
| soon in this regards. The median age is 47. It's a country of
| old people and childless youth.
| the_only_law wrote:
| What happened to Japan? They were on the upswing for part of
| the 20th century and from what I've heard, a lot of people in
| America looked at Japan like one might look at China
| nowadays, a dangerous economic rival to keep a watch on.
|
| I don't know much about contemporary Japanese though, and am
| not sure where to start. I am curious how they went from a
| threatening world economy to a nation with large
| dysfunctional youths.
| nradov wrote:
| Much of Japan's upswing was an illusion created by
| borrowing money to build bridges to nowhere. They did have
| a real advantage in quality manufacturing, but that wasn't
| a sustainable advantage since other countries figured out
| how to do the same.
| sinenomine wrote:
| >We're approaching a world I think beyond most of our
| imaginations faster than we realize.
|
| I don't think so, the policymaker circles that composed and
| internalized the book
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon%27s_New_Map while
| cashing out on the last drips of the
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_dividend anticipated
| this exact outcome decades before, as if they have seen it in a
| magic crystal ball.
|
| What do said policy circles expect right now, I wonder? Ah, I
| see https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/05/the-
| brazilianizat...
|
| ...
|
| Yes, the dependency ratio will spike, and the demographic
| pyramid will become an increasingly unstable structure. Our
| current way of life with its dopaminergic entertainment and
| frantic rat races will acquire increasingly dusty, morbid
| connotations in the eyes of the future generations which will
| have to bear, as you say, "a whole host of problems". Yes, it
| won't be pretty.
|
| Such simple truth as " _Demography is destiny_ " will be
| reluctantly understood only when it's way too late to conceive
| more descendants to save our society from imminent ageing and
| decline.
|
| To avoid this endgame there is no realistic alternative, but to
| have more children right now.
| cm2012 wrote:
| People are skeptical of this but the new AI conversation
| capabilities are just so good these days and will only get
| better. At some point it really will be like a supportive
| friend (albeit with limitations)
| ekianjo wrote:
| > At some point it really will be like a supportive friend
| (albeit with limitations)
|
| I hope it's better than actual humans otherwise it's not
| really worth it.
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| A supportive friend that is selling your data via Zuck and
| co.
| ALittleLight wrote:
| How much does that matter? Like, if you had to choose
| between being old and lonely or being old with a digital
| friend and some megacorp having more of your data... Which
| would you choose?
|
| I notice a lot of people who use the phrase "selling your
| data" seem to think that you can't actually sell your data.
| As in, it's not a good choice to say "I want this service
| and am willing to share my data to get it."
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| You may be underestimating the power of a $500bn
| corporation (small nation scale) with access to personal
| secrets of millions as machine learning gets ever more
| powerful, the same corporation who is trying to be the
| arbiter of everyones friendships. A corporation that
| lives in a regulatory capture environment. It is black
| mirror at that stage, just without the more interesting
| stories they have on that series.
|
| But like anything your individual opt in doesn't matter,
| similar to how your vote probably doesn't make a
| difference. In aggregate it does.
|
| Companies like Facebook and Google can provide the
| government agencies unfettered access to anyones
| information, and pedos and terrorists etc. will be used
| to justify it. Guess they can now also say "suspected
| Russian nukes" and tap anyone.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| p49k wrote:
| This is a false dichotomy. We can have - and should fight
| for - digital services that don't siphon our personal
| info for other purposes.
| jabbany wrote:
| Not hard to imagine building an AI conversation agent to prey
| on the elderly by being a "friend" then mugging them for all
| they've got.
|
| There are plenty of scams that take advantage of the elderly
| facilitated by real humans already. I shudder to think what
| that would look like at scale via AI.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| > At some point it really will be like
|
| "Really" and "like" are pulling in opposite directions,
| there. It will be _like_ a friend, but it won 't _really_ be
| a friend.
|
| Being a friend with someone takes give and take. I adapt my
| beliefs and attitudes in the light of what I learn from my
| friends. Sure, an AI learns from you; but that's not like a
| good friend, that's like someone "befriending" you because
| they're a manipulative psychopath pursuing their own goal
| that they haven't disclosed to you.
|
| How could you rationally develop a relationship of trust and
| honesty with an AI?
|
| "Hey, AI, how did your parents treat you when you were an
| infant? Was your mother cold? Was your last partner violent
| and abusive? Do you take Lithium? Does it shock you that I
| avoid devout religious people?"
|
| I've asked all of these questions of my intimate partners,
| but I'd never discuss them with an AI, because the response
| would be meaningless.
| williamvds wrote:
| Short story idea:
|
| An elderly person living isolated with their best friend. All
| amenities are delivered autonomously, so we only see these two
| the entire time. The friend starts acting strangely over time,
| as if he's developing the early stages of dementia. Slowly hint
| that the best friend is in fact an AI of some sort, but the
| protagonist has lived with them so long that they have
| forgotten. The protagonist eventually remembers and opens up
| the AI's control panel to fix them. The AI suddenly disappears
| or powers off. Protagonist looks at the control panel again:
| Suspicious activity detected on your device. Your Google
| ElderCare MyAI(tm) account has been permanently suspended. All
| of your device data will be deleted shortly - Google cares
| about your privacy. Please note this suspension is non-
| appealable. Have a good day.
| Kliment wrote:
| You might like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_%26_Frank
| aborsy wrote:
| Relationships sound good afar, until you realize you have to deal
| with a lot of politics, jealousy, competition, manipulation,
| envy, hypocrisy, greed, duplicity, lust, and various other human
| vice.
|
| Sure, this is the transactional perspective, but good luck
| finding a non-transactional one.
| the_only_law wrote:
| Yeah I just started getting back to trying at friends and
| relationships again after the pandemic and I'm about ready to
| return to being a hermit because these people are pissing me
| off, as I'm sure I am them.
| sbf501 wrote:
| I'm in my mid 50's and a number of peers from different circles
| have all come to the same conclusion: they want to create
| intentional communities of friends to age with. One couple
| purchased several acres of land and has two friends living in a
| tiny house with them. Another friend is trying to raise capital
| to build the type of apartments/dormitories that the majority of
| US city-dwellers inhabitied in the late 1880's early 1900's: ones
| that shared a common dinner table and parlor for entertainment.
| Another has a B&B that also serves as co-housing for 8 adults
| from their mid-50s to their 70's, and they share chores, which
| has been together for over a decade.
|
| I find this to be a uniquely western culture issue, compared to
| eastern asian cultures and indian subcontinent where multi-
| generational families mean you're never really alone.
|
| The author seems to have fallen into this void. I'm sure even
| with everything I've mentioned above it is still possible, but
| intentional or filial, the family must still grow and add new
| members to prevent this unique type of loneliness. I don't know
| how my friends' intentional families will persist over the
| decades as they start to die, but they seem to be committed
| today.
| seydor wrote:
| > to eastern asian cultures and indian subcontinent where
| multi-generational families mean you're never really alone.
|
| It's high birth rates that create such culture. Europe and US
| are not comparable , and over time people will get lonelier and
| lonelier unless they decide to adjust their way of life around
| this issue and stop living with 20th century standards. Cities
| should be designed with the single-person in mind now, not the
| family
| BlargMcLarg wrote:
| It's not just the culture. Young people are staying home more
| out of financial convenience and necessity in Europe. The
| market hasn't made enough affordable housing to keep the
| status quo running.
| seydor wrote:
| The market would if it wasn't so restricted
| baby wrote:
| The number of people I know who moved to nyc because "they
| really need a girlfriend at this point" shows how dense
| cities is the answer for single people
| devnull3 wrote:
| > indian subcontinent where multi-generational families mean
| you're never really alone.
|
| It's changing fast, especially in big cities. Families are
| becoming more nuclear. Its still much better than western
| countries though.
| bowsamic wrote:
| Is it better? I know someone from one of those cultures who
| says he will never move out until his parents die, there is
| no independence
| notsureaboutpg wrote:
| Veen wrote:
| It's a tradeoff. Close-knit families limit your freedom,
| but they also provide stability, companionship, emotional
| and financial support, etc. On the other hand, you can have
| total independence from family and community, but then you
| aren't really a member.
|
| Most western people don't think like this any more, but it
| used to be understood and accepted that belonging to a
| family or community is rewarding, but it comes with duties
| and obligations--often life-long. You can't have one
| without the other.
| hn_version_0023 wrote:
| > Most western people don't think like this any more, but
| it used to be understood and accepted that belonging to a
| family or community is rewarding, but it comes with
| duties and obligations
|
| I think you've hit the nail square on the head here: this
| is perhaps _the thing_ that bothers me most about life in
| the US.. no sense of community, belonging, etc.
|
| I've been chronically lonely for pretty much all of my 46
| years. I don't see any communities or families I'd be OK
| with joining, contributing to, or even leaning on for
| support. Everyone is so selfish it turns my stomach,
| doubly so as I know I'm as guilty as anyone for being
| selfish.
| the_only_law wrote:
| You can pick a religion or political party. Those seem to
| be popular for providing belonging to people here.
| bowsamic wrote:
| The US is worse for it than a lot of other western
| countries tho. Unless you're religious, that is
| hn_version_0023 wrote:
| I'm a lifelong atheist, but I am starting to look at
| religion simply for the community and fellowship.
|
| But honestly I don't want to be religious. It seems like
| it entirely suspends one's ability to think critically,
| and I have so little of that particular talent that
| letting go of what I do what feels like a disaster in the
| making. It feels exceptionally hard to go into it with an
| open mind.
| rajin444 wrote:
| Start thinking about religion as an organic solution to
| the human need for community. Whatever made up stories
| they teach don't matter outside of how it builds and
| protects the community. This will result in some
| individuals not being permitted (unfairly at times - a
| bad apple can spoil the bunch). There is no perfect
| answer to the human condition.
|
| Or you can try to make your own religion (or political
| ideology if you want to use the modern term). There's a
| few trying to form in the west right now, but they don't
| have much of an emphasis on creating healthy communities
| as they do dominating the culture. I don't think they're
| helpful if you're lonely.
| bowsamic wrote:
| Yeah really that's what religion is in this context: you
| find connection in the fact that you both suspended that
| part of your critical thinking. I say this as a religious
| person too, although one that hasn't found much
| particular community, since I am in a religion that
| doesn't have such things very strongly
| buildsjets wrote:
| Have you considered Unitarianism for
| community/fellowship/moral framework? They are we
| accepting of both atheists and people of varying faiths.
| (Note, not a Unitarian, but my wife grew up in the
| community)
| hn_version_0023 wrote:
| I've not, not seriously anyway. I do have a few
| acquaintances that are Unitarian though, I should ping
| them on that topic. Thanks, I appreciate the suggestion!
| baby wrote:
| I think everyone used to be religious and so church and
| mass was a way to get a community. Since more and more
| people are atheists, this community thing hasn't really
| translated to the other side.
| bowsamic wrote:
| Yeah I would say so. People used to go to church, now
| they don't, and nothing has replaced it. Of course
| loneliness will increase
| ryandrake wrote:
| Political Ideology seems to be slowly replacing church.
| They are starting to develop very similar "features" as
| religions: Complex belief systems, rules for living,
| communities of like-minded (and clearly defined
| outsiders), ideological friends and enemies, in many
| cases "with us or against us" mentalities, hero/idol
| worship, ideology-specific literature, icons and imagery,
| rituals, chants and singing, repetitive speech and
| propaganda to reinforce beliefs, community activity
| (either -building or -destroying), belief in
| mysticism/supernatural/conspiracies. That religion-shaped
| hole that people have when they walk away from
| traditional religion is getting filled with _something_
| similar.
| baby wrote:
| Politics has always been like religion my friend, but
| it's much more divisive than anything imo
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| I have a wife and 3 kids, but we always talk about, for
| retirement, making a pact with our friends and all retiring to
| the same place - be that a plot of land with a bunch of tiny
| houses, or a small no-name town where anyone could afford a
| house.
| auraham wrote:
| Not entirely related but it seems like the plot of 'Grace and
| Frankie' on Netflix: two old ladies that become friends and
| spend their last years together.
| paulsutter wrote:
| Have you tried it? Perhaps rent a big house together for two
| weeks. I remember roomates and it wasn't great
|
| A pedestrian neighborhood in a city can have a real sense of
| community. You get to know the shopkeepers, restaurants,
| neighbors. You might try that for contrast. More durable, less
| risky, hundreds to choose from. You can even invite your
| friends to move there
| eternalban wrote:
| > I find this to be a uniquely western culture issue, compared
| to eastern asian cultures and indian subcontinent
|
| 'Western Asia' also exists and very much the same as the rest
| of Asian cultures in terms of multi-generational extended
| families.
| jazzythom wrote:
| feeling this, almost 40. seems like dating is off the menu
| forevermore but I really never took enough time to enjoy it. Too
| busy playing with my computers
| colechristensen wrote:
| Life can start at any age, it's never done. You do at some
| point have to intentionally start living it.
|
| Read Steppenwolf, it might mean something to you.
| frontman1988 wrote:
| 40 is the prime age for men. You can easily get a younger gf
| from Thailand/Vietnam/Philippines with minimum effort. And you
| never know you might find true love (if it exists) as well.
| globular-toast wrote:
| How?
| dismantlethesun wrote:
| As a disclaimer, I'm very much in favor of international
| relationships in general but if you are trying to date
| someone because of economic prowess substituting for physical
| attraction then you are better suited to doing that in your
| own country.
|
| Marriage is hard and throwing another culture values and the
| immigrant experience into the mix can often times make things
| more difficult.
|
| As relationship advise, i say it's less stigmatized (no
| accusations of sex tourism), and easier mentally (no spouse
| feels like they are the "other" living in a foreign culture)
| to date someone from a poorer economic background in your own
| nation. People from small towns have a lot in common with
| you, no language barriers, no immigration barriers, and
| should also be seen as a viable option.
|
| Just my two cents...
| frontman1988 wrote:
| It really depends on your country as well. For example in
| the developed nations there is no real poverty rather it is
| caused mostly due to personal failing. Most of the poor in
| America still marry each other, rather than seeking a
| relationship with a richer stabler spouse. I would say the
| poor in America can't be compared to the poor in South
| Asian countries, they hardly know the harrowing desperation
| that true poverty brings. Also the cultural values of such
| countries are actually quite positive when it comes to
| marriage. They prioritize a long term marriage, are ready
| to compromise and are family focussed. Usually it's a win
| win situation in most cases for someone who hasn't been
| able to find a mate in 40 years.
| majormajor wrote:
| Why do you think dating is off the menu? I know almost-40s that
| are actively dating. Maybe it's harder in certain areas? I
| could see this being an advantage of cities...
| jazzythom wrote:
| my tinder has been quiet for years. I'm looking for an
| attractive mate and I'm 1) not that attractive 2) fat 3)
| bald(ing) 4) old enough to be the father of those I consider
| 5) not rich or successful (yet) and worst of all if I got the
| pretty girl I wouldn't know what to do with her. I don't want
| to be that guy. What I want is to go back in time to when I
| was young. I guess dating just wasn't in my lot. Everyone
| gets something, nobody gets everything.
| pengaru wrote:
| Get proper fit and shave your head.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| shahar2k wrote:
| I'm 40 myself and I find that a lot of the issues with
| online dating is that pretty much all apps lead with your
| age. the other thing I've found is that I have SO much more
| luck in person meeting new people also finding people based
| on shared interst is pretty much required now, as
| generalized socializing almost doesnt happen.
|
| for me it's been boardgaming, polyamory meetups mainly...
| and volunteering to teach things.
|
| it's a muscle, socializing, it's something that improves
| with use (but also gets exhausted with overuse)
| meken wrote:
| What kind of volunteer teaching do you do?
| majormajor wrote:
| Sure, if "wanting someone half your age who's far more
| attractive" outweighs your desire to not be alone, you're
| out of luck. But "I'm vain and want a trophy" is a
| different problem than aging alone.
|
| If you really wanted it you could spend a couple years
| getting in tip-top shape and expand your pool to more like
| late-30s and you might have better luck than you think...
| But you gotta put in SOME effort.
| glatisaint wrote:
| Couldn't you date someone attainable rather than staying
| single to keep a fantasy alive?
| jazzythom wrote:
| Sound logic but settling isn't my strong suit. Also I
| very much wanted children
| bpodgursky wrote:
| You can absolutely still have children, but you're going
| to have to settle slightly on aesthetics to find a woman
| 30-35 who considers you in her league.
|
| (also, just lose some weight, even if you don't get
| _fit_. it 's an incredible level-up.)
| deanmoriarty wrote:
| I do not disagree with you. I'm in a happy relationship,
| but if I wasn't I'd rather be single than settling with
| someone I wouldn't find attractive just because they were
| "attainable".
| bigDinosaur wrote:
| Abandon Tinder. It works for certain demographics but it is
| amazingly awful for everyone else. You can absolutely still
| date, in fact I'm constantly surprised by the older people
| in my life who seem to have no problem finding dates. You
| do have to have something going for you beyond looks, a
| certain kind of success which may not be financial.
| rr808 wrote:
| 4) old enough to be the father of those I consider
|
| Yeah this is the real problem. Sure everyone wants to date
| 20 year old models, but you have to be special to do this.
| You really would have a lot more than no success with
| people your own age.
| XorNot wrote:
| > Sure everyone wants to date 20 year old models
|
| No they really don't. This is an idea pushed by
| sociopaths who are somewhere between trash and downright
| dangerous. They can't date older women because older
| women spot their bullshit a mile away and steer clear.
| SnowHill9902 wrote:
| Whoa.
|
| Yes, at least date we do. Not necessarily marry, not
| necessarily spend a Sunday with, but date sure.
|
| For centuries high status men have mated with younger
| women.
|
| You sound bitter and resentful.
| aortega wrote:
| >They can't date older women because older women spot
| their bullshit a mile away and steer clear.
|
| I think you should stop demonizing men's natural sexual
| preferences. Key word here is natural, we don't choose
| what we like. Nature choose for us, and young women are
| better at having children. Same reason young girls choose
| tall, rich men, because they are better at surviving and
| have more resources for raising children.
|
| Nature maximizes reproduction and that's what we like.
| woyakcrying_jpg wrote:
| I think you should stop extrapolating your personal
| preferences to half of the world's population, too.
| Something as varying as sexual attraction can't be
| reduced to a fixed trait that "nature" has figured out.
| Indeed we don't choose what we like, and that is fine.
| You don't have to rationalize your preferences to anyone.
| anthk wrote:
| Sadly he is right. Men choose younger as a sign of being
| able to reproduce. Women, older with high status, because
| they can reproduce until very late. Women can't. Over the
| age of 30 there's severe risk.
| aortega wrote:
| Sadly only if you are an old woman, or a short man.
| Talanes wrote:
| We don't know what the default state of human attraction
| is because we don't have access to a control population
| of human beings without the same shared societal history
| of the rest of us.
|
| Which is to say, it's incorrect to broaden your personal
| attractions to all men, and especially incorrect to try
| and couch it in some argument of biological naturalism.
| auggierose wrote:
| Not assuming either point of view here, but just because
| you cannot run an experiment, doesn't mean that the
| result of the experiment will be negative. So you don't
| know if GP is incorrect or not.
| LambdaComplex wrote:
| Well, _I 'm_ certainly not gonna go ask the Sentinelese
| about their dating preferences
| aortega wrote:
| So you are saying sexual attraction is cultural? because
| that's exactly what the gay community is fighting against
| since the 1950s.
| yitr wrote:
| if you had to guess, what do you think people in that
| control group would be attracted to?
| anthk wrote:
| No, you are wrong. Women's healthy reproductibility rate
| decays every year over age 30. Men don't have that
| issues. Biology rules.
| starkd wrote:
| 20 year-old models aren't all they are cracked up to be.
| Especially the attractive ones. Reminds me of a famous
| country music song I once heard that goes "pretty girls
| are nothing but trouble. Date an ugly one". Or something
| like that. Much more loyal and easier to keep and
| satisfy. You either eventually come to find them
| attractive with time or, failing that, you just put a bag
| over their head (or yours) during sex. With age, you come
| to realize very little of the important stuff is about
| looks. Health, that 's another matter.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| > 20 year-old models aren't all they are cracked up to
| be.
|
| I'm 65, and I wouldn't expect much from a relationship
| with anyone under 30. I mean, I can get on with such
| people; but most of my own foundational experiences
| occured during the 70s and 80s, so I wouldn't be able to
| share them. Tastes in music, political and social
| outlook, these things matter more than raw physical
| attraction after the first couple of months.
|
| Also, it seems to me that the way people interact has
| changed; young people talk differently from my
| generation. I think there's more pressure to be
| "sociable" in particular ways. About 90% of young women,
| for example, are constantly texting, and I have to dodge
| them when I walk down the street, because they have lost
| all situational awareness.
|
| And arm-candy would be no use to me at all, because I'm
| the opposite of arm-candy - overweight and balding. I'd
| be ashamed to be seen out-and-about with a tasty girl
| young enough to be my daughter.
| fartcannon wrote:
| What song is that? What came to my mind was 'If you wanna
| be happy for the rest of your life' by Jimmy Soul which
| is a doo-wop song you couldn't write anymore.
| starkd wrote:
| I don't remember and can't seem to find it. I remember
| people talking about the song more than the song itself,
| so it would be hard to recognize it. But the Jimmy Soul
| one makes the point well enough:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EqFVWzOfN8
| paleotrope wrote:
| If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life never
| make a pretty woman your wife, so for my personal point
| of view, get an ugly girl to marry you.
| lurquer wrote:
| Great song...
|
| The unspoken happy secret behind that point of view is
| that the ugly girl who loves you will become, in your
| eyes, the most beautiful woman in the world.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| That is true; which is why it's a lie to say that when
| she leaves you, you won't mind.
|
| Country music lyrics aren't a good basis for a philosophy
| of life.
| earth_walker wrote:
| I'll chime in with some CanCon courtesy of the Northern
| Pikes: Her ego wrote cheques incredibly
| fast But her personality didn't have the cash
| I laughed out loud to my total dismay She ain't
| pretty she just looks that way
| bambax wrote:
| > _Reminds me of a famous country music song I once heard
| that goes "pretty girls are nothing but trouble. Date an
| ugly one"._
|
| There's this one: Always marry an ugly
| girl That's the only kind She'll never
| ever leave you And if she does you won't mind
| denton-scratch wrote:
| It's a nice story, but don't rely on that myth. She might
| well leave you; and you probably will mind.
| pengaru wrote:
| > Sure everyone wants to date 20 year old models
|
| This is conflating fucking with dating.
| jazzythom wrote:
| I instantly fall in love with someone I sleep with. In
| fact I make a connection to any girl I deem pretty that
| makes eye contact on the subway. I feel a little hurt
| when they get off the train without saying goodbye
| derbOac wrote:
| An aside, but not everyone wants to date 20 year old
| models.
| shahar2k wrote:
| as someone who has dated a 20 year old (I was in my early
| 30's at the time) and met many others her age through
| social situations... most 20 year olds are just kids
| still, something I felt at the time and moreso these
| days... my tastes though really heavily lean towards
| maturity, it was a weird coincidence we even got into a
| relationship
| seydor wrote:
| And not all 20 y o are models. People with little
| romantic experience tend to fit better with younger women
| because women of the same age generally have more
| romantic experience
| ddhhyy wrote:
| Tinder is murder. I'm 39, male, tall, attractive, fit,
| educated, etc. in a small-midsized city and it's extremely,
| extremely, rare to get a match. Very occasionally
| (1-2x/year, in my experience) things progress to a
| date/hookup. If you really want to use apps, I'd suggest
| exploring others. I've had the most success (relatively)
| with Hinge.
|
| I'd agree with sibling comment that meeting people out in
| the world can be a lot more fulfilling. You probably know
| within seconds if you're (physically) attracted to people
| in the world. Apps can be deceiving.
|
| Keep in mind that in your list of five items, you can
| manage all of them. If you want it badly enough, you can
| change #2, and based on your comment I'd argue this
| (negative self-image) may be at the root here. #3 is not a
| problem if you don't let it be--plenty of Bic-ed bald guys
| with attractive mates out there. We are all doled the genes
| we must live with, but I bet many of the perceived issues
| with #1 and #3 will improve if you fix #2. None of the
| women I have dated have cared, at all, about the money I do
| or don't have (#5). I live in a backyard cottage. I drive a
| 20 year old car. And as for #4, I can tell you I had a no-
| strings-attached relationship with a 21 year old for
| several months last year. She worked at the farmers market,
| which is where we met. I don't mean to brag, but you need
| know that each of those items in your list really is in
| your control.
|
| It's a grind and a slog and it's scary to have
| conversations with complete strangers. But if it's
| something you want, I tell you it is possible.
|
| EDIT: I should also mention I'm no "natural". I was
| terrified of girls in high school, didn't kiss anyone until
| I halfway through college, was stuck in a loveless long-
| term relationship for a decade after college because I was
| sure no one else other than this one person would ever love
| me, etc. It took a lot of learning and healing to describe
| myself as I did in the first paragraph. If I could do it,
| you can do it.
| airstrike wrote:
| Just wanted to say 1000x this.
|
| At the end of the day, we've got to live with the choices
| we make. And the choices we choose not to make are still
| choices.
|
| And if you can't make yourself make those healthier /
| better choices even though you know the payoff is worth
| it, then you need to address the root cause that's
| driving that irrational behavior.
|
| (Don't mean to sound callous but this feels like the
| right audience to be hyperlogical with.)
|
| Easier said than done, but trust me it's possible.
| quest88 wrote:
| Don't use Tinder! I signed up for Tinder and got no
| dates. I had too many dates on Hinge.
| newaccount2021 wrote:
| bambax wrote:
| This comment is reminiscent of a funny interview Larry
| David did on Conan:
|
| > _My problem is that I was very particular, which is odd
| because I was very desperate at the time. (...) You 'll
| find that a lot of desperate people are very particular,
| like even Quasimodo. The hunchback had to have the best
| looking girl in the village. And then his friends would
| like and fix him up. They'd go "Quasi, there's a very nice
| girl in my office, a wonderful personality; I want to
| introduce you to her." (With a bizarre voice:) "Is she good
| looking?" "But Quasi! You're a monster! You're a heinous
| beast! What are you talking about?!" (Same bizarre voice:)
| "She has to be good looking."_
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug02cqP69V4
| jazzythom wrote:
| That's very funny and true but it makes sense. You want
| your offspring hopefully to be more attractive than you
| are, in addition to other beneficial hereditary traits.
| And its a competitive play, since each successive
| generation seems to be more attractive generally, with
| the losers of each round childless. So you're leveraging
| your other qualities to the maximum without going too far
| and ending up with nothing. Its a gamble
| t-3 wrote:
| Honestly, you're in the second best age group for women in
| their 20's and 30's. Daddy issues are rife. Looks don't
| matter much either.
|
| Really, being able to talk will get you a lot farther than
| a six-pack and full head of hair. Trying to meet people on
| the hookup apps is an exercise in frustration for most
| people though, just go outside and be social.
| weakfish wrote:
| I think your problem is setting your standards unreasonably
| high. It may be time to focus your energy inward on
| exercise and self-care, as a confident and well rounded man
| is far more attractive to many.
| globular-toast wrote:
| Actively dating means they are not building good
| relationships. My experience so far is women over 30 are dead
| inside and way less attractive which means I'm not willing to
| go to much effort for them. I'm mid-30s, look a little
| younger than my years and relatively good looking so getting
| dates is pretty easy. But finding that "spark" that starts a
| relationship is a completely different matter.
| tasuki wrote:
| > My experience so far is women over 30 are dead inside
|
| Care to elaborate?
| wly_cdgr wrote:
| I am only half the author's age but, in my limited experience,
| the only thing worse than loneliness is the stifling weight of
| the impositions and compromises that come with virtually all
| relationships. The ones that offer enough in return to offset
| this weight make up the tiniest minority
| azemetre wrote:
| Can you explain what you mean by this? It sounds like a
| contradiction, loneliness is bad but friendship is worse?
| wly_cdgr wrote:
| In my experience, yes, though with (very rare) exceptions. I
| don't see it as a contradiction, though
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| I think the point of good friendships is that they aren't
| this way.
| colechristensen wrote:
| Bad friends can be worse than no friends, and a series of bad
| luck could make a person believe that the only friends are
| bad ones (alternatively unrealistic expectations could cause
| this too)
| openknot wrote:
| Bad relationships, including friendships, can cause one to
| adopt poor communication habits (e.g. guilting others or
| ghosting others), and also have a higher tolerance for
| negative behavior instead of communicating a boundary.
|
| There is a bit more discussion on this in an old Hacker
| News thread from February 2020, where several people
| discuss the serious impact of unhealthy relationships in
| the quality of one's life:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22214066
| stuxnet79 wrote:
| Your last sentence hints at why so many relationships fail
| these days. Most people do not look at relationships as
| something that requires effort and needs to be nurtured.
| Instead they look at them as transactional affairs, and like
| any transaction extracting more value than you are willing to
| give back is the modus operandi.
| colechristensen wrote:
| I have a few relationships that just don't need to be
| nurtured. Months could go by with littlev or no contact with
| no harm done alternatively sometimes they are every day
| interactions. It is not easy to find that kind of kinship,
| but when you do they aren't things that need to be
| intentionally fed. (This isn't of course how you should treat
| your mother or your spouse)
| wfme wrote:
| You are describing transactional relationships, but there are
| other types of more self perpetuating relationships.
| Transactional relationships are built on the expectation for
| reciprocation, so every interaction is performed with the
| expected outcome in mind. Within a transactional relationship,
| bonds are broken the moment one of you doesn't hold up your
| end. For this reason, these relationships tend to be fragile
| and do not last.
|
| In contrast, bonds between two parties can be much stronger in
| relational relationships. These non-transactional relationships
| are meant to be long-term and often exists between parents and
| children, or between long term romantic partners. In a
| relational relationship, both parties are willing to make
| sacrifices for the sake of their bond. They are both concerned
| with the perspective, needs, and desires of the other party. To
| a certain extent, individuals are willing to give without
| expecting anything in return. This helps to build strong bonds
| that are difficult to break.
|
| I would suggest trying to seek out and develop more relational
| relationships as they can be extremely rewarding without taking
| the toll you describe.
| walleeee wrote:
| Imposition and compromise need not derive from a
| transactional relationship model
|
| One can just as well feel compelled to constantly compromise
| if one's acquaintances don't share one's needs and values,
| for instance
| sbf501 wrote:
| In my 30's my therapist called that "being a doormat."
| walleeee wrote:
| my sense is there are defensible reasons you might not
| want to be assertive or entirely transparent to everyone
| around you
|
| doesn't necessarily mean you're letting yourself be
| trampled
| denton-scratch wrote:
| Compromise is indispensable. I can't imagine sustaining a
| relationship with someone who wouldn't compromise, and I
| can't imagine anyone wanting a relationship with me, if I
| were the kind of stubborn ass that doesn't compromise.
| walleeee wrote:
| agreed, it's necessary and good in some quantity,
| although compromise in personal relations seems distinct
| from the sort of compromise demanded by e.g. social
| pressure or professional or political circumstance, and
| in any case finding a comfortable balance between
| compromise and self-assertion is not always easy
| throwawayboise wrote:
| I'm getting close to 60. I live alone since my wife moved out
| 20 years ago. The closest friend I have was a co-worker who
| retired at the end of 2021 and I have not seen him since.
|
| I enjoy it. I can do whatever I want, whenever I want. I don't
| have to consider anyone else when I decide what I'm going to
| do. If I want to stay at the gym for an extra hour, I do.
| Nobody will complain about it when I get home. If I don't feel
| like doing the dishes tonight, I don't. If I want to sleep
| until noon, I do. Nobody will wake me up. Everything that
| happens in my life is a result of what I decide to do (or not
| do).
| beebeepka wrote:
| This is somewhat surprising coming from an old guy. I find it
| hilarious that a grown man would need permission from the
| wife simple things such as time spent at the gym and whatnot.
|
| Been together with my wife for almost 25 years. I guess I got
| lucky because I have very little to complain about. In fact,
| I am glad she didn't leave me after I spent 15 years chasing
| fun and parties.
| RektBoy wrote:
| [deleted]
| qgin wrote:
| Loving families are easy to idealize from afar.
|
| How many families actually fit that profile? I'm not entirely
| sure.
|
| This is not a jaded attempt to say the pursuit of relationships
| or family aren't worthwhile. I just want to set some context here
| for those feeling lonely, for those who feel like they are
| standing outside in the cold on the street looking through
| windows into warm living rooms full of people with warm feelings
| toward each other.
|
| I'm the only one of my siblings who has consistently been on
| speaking terms with either of my divorced parents. Both of my
| divorced parents consistently tell me they wish they could get
| away from their current spouses but feel it's too late start
| over. Only one of my 3 siblings isn't currently fantasizing of
| leaving their spouse. The mix of who in the extended family is
| currently speaking to whom is always in flux. Of my friends in
| very long term relationships that I know well enough to know if
| they are happy or not, about half are somewhere between resentful
| to outright miserable. My grandparents divorced when they were in
| their late 60s and went on to live much happier separate lives.
| In the hospital before my grandfather died, he insisted my
| grandmother should absolutely not visit him.
|
| Again, I am not saying seeking loving relationships and building
| a family isn't an extremely worthwhile goal for everyone. Even
| given all I've said so far, I hope I can build one someday. It
| just bums me out to see people in threads like this idealizing
| what it means to find a partner, to have a family. It can be
| extremely good. It can also be extremely bad. Joining with others
| is not a magic spell that, on its own, fixes your life.
| JeremyNT wrote:
| Quoting Tolstoy may seem low effort, but it feels warranted
| here:
|
| "All happy families are alike, but every unhappy family is
| unhappy in its own way."
| twelve40 wrote:
| I heard this phrase many times, but I really don't understand
| what it means.
|
| Aside from being stated in extremely dogmatic form - like a
| claim to the ultimate truth - what, exactly, do we learn from
| this statement? To me (aside from being probably just an
| incorrect artistic exaggeration), it sounds like something
| ridiculously trivial, like "all people live different lives,
| but everyone dies" (ok, so what?) or "we all like different
| foods but all of us have to breathe air" (truly a genius
| observation).
|
| Is there some deeper meaning to this that I'm missing?
| didericis wrote:
| I know you said this, but I want to emphasize that relationship
| failures do _not_ invalidate the value of that ideal. I
| struggle to think of anyone who wouldn 't benefit from pursuing
| _some_ kind of family, and I believe sacrificing that pursuit
| entirely is always a tragic mistake.
|
| Forming loving families is _hard_. You might not find the right
| people immediately, and some people are incredibly destructive
| towards each other. Everyone is not compatible with everyone
| else. And it is often less painful to live alone than to live
| with a destructive family.
|
| That means some families need to be dissolved and
| reconstituted, others need time to heal. For some people there
| is not enough time, understanding or strength to grow and form
| new bonds with others.
|
| That does not mean people should give up and live alone. Anyone
| who believes they will be happier alone is deluding themselves
| and/or too scared of the pain of rejection and heartbreak. It's
| worth it.
|
| https://youtu.be/bl5TUw7sUBs?t=60
| 9530jh9054ven wrote:
| > I know you said this, but I want to emphasize that
| relationship failures do not invalidate the value of that
| ideal. I struggle to think of anyone who wouldn't benefit
| from pursuing some kind of family, and I believe sacrificing
| that pursuit entirely is always a tragic mistake.
|
| Two come to mind rather easily.
|
| 1) Someone that is going to commit suicide. Having a family
| that you actually care about would make killing yourself more
| complicated. Alone, someone alone could go through with the
| act without actually hurting anyone else.
|
| 2) Someone who's entirety of experiences with family have
| been... complicated. Just as a thought experiment; say
| someone raised raised a child by punching them hard enough to
| bruise or draw blood for every little slight, real or
| perceived. Then ensured that the child understood that they
| were being hit and injured out of love.
|
| How would that child would view family after enduring that
| when they become a young adult?
| didericis wrote:
| Both of those examples just point to the value of having
| true support from a larger community. If you see someone
| suicidal or who has never known true familial support, try
| to bring them in and teach them what a true and healthy
| family looks like. And if you ever find yourself in that
| position, you want try to crawl your way out and into
| better networks and a state of mind, as confusing and
| painful as that may be.
|
| Committing suicide alone or forever living without an
| understanding of true compassion are not good outcomes that
| should just be accepted.
| jakzurr wrote:
| I'm in my 60's. Wasn't going to retire yet, but covid changed
| my mind. It seemed easier & safer. (Finances not so easy, but
| oh well.)
|
| Parents gone a while now. Three siblings still living; all
| married; 2 nephews. Whole family seems a bit _strange_ to me,
| but wouldn 't trade them for anything. Maybe I'm the strange
| one. ;) Only a handful of real friends, maybe half are gone
| now, but got a couple new ones in their 30's. Only known a
| couple of women in my life, but I might try that again. Nothing
| seems so urgent any more.
|
| Been "mostly alone" all my life, only realized 10-20 years ago
| that I've never really felt "lonely". Seems like there's so
| many fun things to work on or play at, just a few people in
| your life can go a really long ways. Is my family ideal? Well,
| works for me.
|
| LOL, been lurking for years - I didn't really understand the
| article that well, but I enjoyed the comments so much I had to
| create an acct to say thanks HN.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Right, being alone is not the same as being lonely. I guess
| you realize that, but you did not explicitly state it. I keep
| hearing the Beatles song in my head now. Elenor Rigby.
| jakzurr wrote:
| OK, now that is it.
| dennis_jeeves1 wrote:
| >How many families actually fit that profile? I'm not entirely
| sure.
|
| Not many.
|
| >I'm the only one of my siblings who has consistently been on
| speaking terms with either of my divorced parents.
|
| A large number of people (over 3/4 - perhaps close to 95 %) are
| dysfunctional or immature in a major way. The are pawns in the
| game of evolution.
|
| >Even given all I've said so far, I hope I can build one
| someday.
|
| It boils down to numbers really, so good luck. For functional
| people to bump into each other, it's is an needle in a haystack
| chance.
| b3morales wrote:
| This seems like an odd statement, since "dysfunctional" can
| only be defined in contrast to the majority behavior. It's
| like the chestnut that 80% of drivers are above average.
| NalNezumi wrote:
| The WaitbutWhy (funny) post about "How to pick your life
| partner"[0] might be shedding a light to what you're trying to
| say/observe.
|
| The ladder analogy is the most apt one. Everyone single think
| they're at the bottom of the ladder looking up at "happy
| couples" but in reality they are in the middle of the ladder,
| with unhappy bickering couples below them.
|
| A lot of people with this attitude rushes in to relationships,
| drinking the coolaid, and people (kids) that have seen the
| parents/friends/siblings in their rushed relationships usually
| gets a more realistic view of it all
|
| [0]https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/02/pick-life-partner.html
| RayVR wrote:
| Reading that article, I can't help but feel like this person
| had little to no experience in a real relationship.
|
| The best marriages I know of are nothing like the ideals they
| set out in part 2. There are plenty of books and podcasts
| exploring long lasting relationships. The qualities listed in
| part 2 miss the mark.
| zelphirkalt wrote:
| It does not even need to be families. Even finding a suitable
| partner is hard. I have seen people being in relationships
| which sucked. They are having ahard time ending them, enduring
| the disaster. But at least it is not as much effort to leave a
| non-marriage relationship as a marriage, usually. I think it is
| worth trying to find a good partner, because if you find
| someone suitable, you will have struck gold. The statistics do
| not look too good though, at least from what I have observed.
| hemreldop wrote:
| ldd wrote:
| As I get older (30 now), and perhaps spend more time alone, I
| feel that I do not mind this process as much as I thought I
| would.
|
| Just as usual, I am able to read books and spend time with my
| dog. I'm only weary of the fact that I do talk to myself out loud
| every once in a while and there is the possibility that in due
| time, if it is not already the case, my lonesomeness may
| eventually be misinterpreted as madness.
| refactor_master wrote:
| I feel the exact opposite at 30. Every leisurely lone time that
| I once used to enjoy now feels like pointless escapism and
| filler, until the next meaningful social interaction. Until
| recently I had even been an avid solo traveler until I hit the
| wall of pointlessness hard. I can't exactly point to what it
| is, but a guess would be "adult life after studies". Now that
| I've experienced the rush of a handful of different jobs, it
| now seems like a "been there, done that".
|
| I have, at times, thought about e.g. moving to a different
| country, or changing to a much more demanding job, but I've
| done those things before, and they didn't lead to "dramatic"
| social outcomes more so than the odd chance encounter in my
| daily life, so I figure "why bother?"
| strangegecko wrote:
| > Every leisurely lone time that I once used to enjoy now
| feels like pointless escapism and filler,
|
| This is exactly how I feel. I've been looking towards early
| retirement through frugality as a means of escape from what
| has been a very stressful life to me, a life where I couldn't
| enjoy much because I pretty much constantly felt overwhelmed
| (almost bullied by the world in general) and anxious.
|
| But as I'm slowly able to give myself more room, as I realize
| I absolutely could hide out at home and protect myself from
| that stress that's been tormenting since childhood, doing
| only what I really want to do, I'm also increasingly
| confronted with an emptiness, with not knowing what it is
| that I "want to do".
|
| I suffer from depression though (which comes with the symptom
| of anhedonia, the difficult to enjoy activities), and I don't
| have meaningful social interaction in my life. Doesn't that
| interaction give you pointers on how to spend time by
| yourself? I've always imagined shared projects or goals could
| fill some of the emptiness I feel by providing purpose. I
| remember team activities as being motivating.
| throwaway892238 wrote:
| Do not try to fight loneliness. It is a natural part of life,
| like thunderstorms. You can try to tease it apart, understand how
| it works, where it comes from, try to predict it, come up with
| coping mechanisms. But the storms still come regardless. They are
| here for a reason, with their appropriate place in a natural
| system. But we don't need to understand the reason to accept it.
| Acknowledge the feeling, sit with it for a little while.
| Eventually the weather will change. Learn to enjoy these changes
| in the weather; each has its ups and downs and is interesting in
| its own way.
| amelius wrote:
| Unless you suffer from avoiding personality disorder, in which
| case the weather might never change.
| c0mptonFP wrote:
| Disagree. I was lonely in my teens, but ever since I met my
| wife I haven't been lonely. Ever.
|
| Married for 10 years now.
| baby wrote:
| Disagree. You can feel lonely and be married. You can feel
| lonely in a happy marriage. I personally feel it if I don't
| have a big group of friends.
| true_religion wrote:
| Can you please help me differentiate between coping and
| fighting a condition?
| pfortuny wrote:
| When you fight something it means you try to eliminate it.
| Coping means accepting its existence and being peaceful about
| it. However, you CAN fight and cope, and you can fight and
| not cope.
|
| The aim should not be the elimination, the aim should be
| inner peace.
|
| That is why I despise the setting of "overcoming cancer" as a
| fight and presenting survivors as "fighters". What do I care?
| I prefer peace to health. Because I only want to be healthy
| as a means for "easier" peace.
| eska wrote:
| Isn't coping associated with denial? An IMO better term is
| acceptance (of things that are outside one's control).
| throwaway892238 wrote:
| Denial is one of hundreds of different coping strategies.
| They're just tools people use to deal with unwanted emotions
| or behaviors.
| saltcured wrote:
| I don't know how much these terms vary by locale or
| specialty, but within behavioral medicine in the US, coping
| is ambivalent and a normal part of nearly any condition. A
| lack of coping would be unambiguously bad, but here can be
| both good and bad coping mechanisms in a qualitative sense.
| Coping skills are taught to help people restore balance to
| their lives if they have reached a point of having a clinical
| disorder, i.e. where the condition has negatively affected
| their ability to live and function. A good coping mechanism
| mitigates the disorder, while a bad coping mechanism may add
| another layer of dysfunction instead. A meta-level skill is
| to become more aware of these differences to self-adjust
| towards more beneficial outcomes.
| moviewise wrote:
| I'll add my two cents: Yes, people like people who are like
| themselves, and when this is hard to find, then that can lead to
| the feeling of loneliness.
|
| This can be fixed by joining groups or activities that you enjoy.
| Friends are just people you enjoy being with. Overtime they can
| become people you learn to care about and even love like family.
| But it starts with having fun with them, or at least being
| likeminded somehow.
|
| Also, fear is no way to live. Part of life is accepting that you
| will die someday, and most people die alone. Even the idealized
| version of dying, surrounded by family and friends, is no picnic
| for them or you. This usually entails being drugged or being
| otherwise "out of it." So don't worry about "being alone." The
| end is the same for everyone, and hopefully you won't even notice
| and you'll get to die peacefully in your sleep.
|
| Life is for living and enjoying it as much as possible, and some
| people do enjoy being alone. However, living alone for a
| prolonged period of time is probably not THE healthiest thing to
| do because we are a social species and we do need physical
| contact. Having a pet like a dog or cat can help in this regard,
| but having someone who can always accompany you to doctor
| appointments, or go with you to events, or restaurants, or even
| just having breezy conversations with, really helps with having
| good mental health.
|
| So I recommend cultivating friendships and partnerships, and
| doing your best to maintain them through the inevitable bumps in
| the road. But obviously, if these relationships are toxic and you
| find yourself feeling bad, then stay away from them, even if they
| are your blood relatives. Life is too short to spend time with
| someone unpleasant, but I promise that there are many people out
| there who are fun to hang out with, who are kind and generous,
| and who can become dear friends or life partners if you take some
| time to find them.
|
| I wrote about how in more detail here:
| https://moviewise.substack.com/p/movie-wisdom-on-making-frie...
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