[HN Gopher] Troof on Nootropics
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Troof on Nootropics
Author : jseliger
Score : 51 points
Date : 2022-05-18 16:46 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (astralcodexten.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (astralcodexten.substack.com)
| fasteo wrote:
| Too bad Troof blog is using a definition of nootropic that I
| don't like:
|
| "Any substance purported to increase or enhance cognitive
| abilities."
|
| He reckons that:
|
| "Some only use the term nootropic to refer to a specific thing
| which should check a very specific checklist, e.g. having very
| few side-effects. As I'm not using this definition, remember that
| the nootropics mentioned here can be very dangerous."
|
| And I am very much inclined to think a nootropic as a substance
| that[1]
|
| "should _protect the brain_ against various physical or chemical
| injuries (e.g. barbiturates, scopalamine). "
|
| I would even change should by _must_
|
| [1]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corneliu_E._Giurgea#Nootropic_...
| Trasmatta wrote:
| For better or worse, the modern colloquial usage of nootropic
| is nowhere near the original definition. Caffeine is considered
| "the most widely used nootropic", but it doesn't even fit the
| original usage.
| tristor wrote:
| What I got from this is that the most effective nootropics are
| things that affect energy levels and feelings of wellbeing. Items
| which are not stimulants rating highly indicates to a large
| degree that the underlying mechanism for many people might simply
| be alleviating their own anxiety so they can focus.
|
| The reality then, probably matches the chart pretty well for the
| types of people who do focused work and can afford to try things
| out and the best routine is likely what people have known is good
| for many things tied to health for a long time:
|
| 1. Lose weight.
|
| 2. Exercise regularly.
|
| 3. Get good sleep.
| metacritic12 wrote:
| The "energy" factor and "making you feel good" factor might be
| it.
|
| > people might simply be alleviating their own anxiety
|
| Dexedrine and Adderall exacerbate anxiety if anything.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > Adderall exacerbate anxiety if anything.
|
| Not so. Brain fog creates tremendous anxiety because it
| continually sabotages pretty much everything. Fifteen years
| of Adderall has dramatically reduced anxiety for me and
| everyone around me.
| metacritic12 wrote:
| Interesting, the confidence channel of anxiety reduction.
| astrange wrote:
| This is true for me, but I can't raise my dose past 20mg
| Vyvanse without getting "physical" anxiety even before the
| mental one starts.
|
| Accidentally getting too much caffeine can be unpleasant
| too.
| daniel-cussen wrote:
| If anything. Dexedrine does nothing at all in any way in
| other cases.
| AcerbicZero wrote:
| I'm not surprised Adderall took the top spot; as far as "wonder
| drugs" go, it basically checks all the boxes. Energy, weight
| loss, motivation, the whole thing all in one nice little package.
| I think the trap is that over time it doesn't work exactly like
| it did before, and if you take it every single day you can get
| burned out. I like to skip a day or two over the weekend, to help
| start the week out a bit more fresh, but to each their own.
|
| It's not comforting to know that my prefered answer to this
| (adult diagnosed) ADHD problem puts me right next to the meth
| addicts without teeth, but it's a risk that has paid off
| massively for me.
| astrange wrote:
| > I think the trap is that over time it doesn't work exactly
| like it did before, and if you take it every single day you can
| get burned out.
|
| You may have a magnesium deficiency. Tolerance to Adderall
| definitely isn't guaranteed.
|
| NAC can also help in some people.
|
| (both of these recommended by my psych not just /r/nootropics)
| ericmcer wrote:
| Adderall compared to smoking meth is like drinking green tea vs
| chewing up a handful of caffeine pills.
|
| It has changed my life in a pretty beneficial way, but totally
| agree about having days off. I take 3 days off a week and
| refuse to let my doctor bump up the pill size.
| nokcha wrote:
| In regards to the difference in effect between Adderall and
| illegal street meth, Scott thinks the biggest difference is the
| dosage size, effectively around 50x higher for street meth:
| https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/drug-users-use-a-lot-o...
|
| _Dosis sola facit venenum._
| Teever wrote:
| This may not actually be the case:
| https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-
| new...
|
| I've done a decent amount of drugs, and I've been around
| people who have done a hell of a lot more, but I recently had
| a friend develop a meth problem, and I have to say, there is
| something remarkably different about how issue compared to
| what I've seen in my life.
| daniel-cussen wrote:
| And particularly the means--smoking it versus taking orally.
| A lot of these stims are terrible if snorted or injected,
| they used to warn patients never to do that or risk becoming
| addicted.
|
| There is a methamphetamine that is prescribed to ADD's, not
| the same as the street version of course.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > I think the trap is that over time it doesn't work exactly
| like it did before, and if you take it every single day you can
| get burned out.
|
| After many years of 7d/wk use, it still works as expected for
| me. Diff bodies and all that.
| [deleted]
| Fletch137 wrote:
| This article conviced me decide to research and possibly try
| using Dexedrine/Dextroamphetamine. Wish me the best! I always
| wanted to try a potentially powerful nootropic.
| myfavoritedog wrote:
| I used Dexedrine some years ago because I was dealing with a
| lack of focus, tiredness, and brain fog.
|
| For the month or so that it worked, it was pretty awesome. My
| mind felt like it was hammering away and as sharp as I was in
| my twenties.
|
| Unfortunately, that feeling didn't last more than maybe six
| weeks. I was advised by some to just increase the dosage, but
| my heart was already fluttering in my chest at the dosage I was
| at. Also, my sleep was odd, with weird dreams that would wake
| me up, preventing me from falling back asleep for hours. Added
| to that, my blood pressure got stuck over 140 and wouldn't come
| down.
|
| If I could get a prescription that would give me the benefits
| of those first weeks of use, without destroying my health, I'd
| be all over it.
|
| Eventually, my GP noticed that I had a thyroid deficiency that
| I'm not treating with thyroid hormone. That's helped a great
| deal with the tiredness and brain fog.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > For the month or so that it worked, it was pretty awesome.
| Unfortunately, that feeling didn't last more than maybe six
| weeks.
|
| Sort of similar. I found every wrong road I took
| (supplements, diets, physical) helped - for 2 weeks and then
| never again. Stims turned out to be my right road.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| Aka "speed". Of course it works, it is a hard drug! You can
| also try MDMA, meth, cocaine, etc... they all work, until they
| kill you.
|
| Ok, I am exaggerating, these drugs are not that bad, even if
| you include their "fun" applications, as long as you follow the
| harm reduction principles. And these anti-ADHD tablets are not
| dubious street drugs, they are well dosed, pure and slowly
| released.
|
| But still, I would avoid these in the long run, caffeine is
| where I draw the line for regular use (and I'd rather not
| depend on it). Also keep in mind that ADHD treatment is meant
| for people with ADHD, basically giving them the stimulation
| their brain can't provide on its own, this way they can calm
| down instead of being in constant search for excitement. If you
| don't have ADHD you don't need any of that and it will just
| make you a bit high, an almost opposite effect.
| Tenoke wrote:
| >Aka "speed".
|
| Speed is typically not Dextroamphetamine and not as pure (at
| minimum the dosages seem quite different) though hard to tell
| what amphetamine you are getting with it. Otherwise yes,
| pretty close and it's possible that speed is more dangerous
| because of the amounts people take of it at a time vs the
| typically lower and more consistent dosing with Dexedrine.
| Similar for meth and vyvanse.
| astrange wrote:
| > Also keep in mind that ADHD treatment is meant for people
| with ADHD, basically giving them the stimulation their brain
| can't provide on its own, this way they can calm down instead
| of being in constant search for excitement.
|
| That's not how it works. Your brain has networks responsible
| for keeping the rest under control and it's those that get
| "stimulated". It doesn't just make everything more exciting -
| that's MDMA.
| jdmoreira wrote:
| Humm... I knew a few people that managed to destroy their life
| by taking amphetamines. Sometimes there is a reason for some
| substances to be controlled. But of course ultimately it's up
| to you and each case is a case. I just wanted to offer some
| deterrent because I know anecdotal reports on the internet tend
| to be quite positive since the people that wrote them probably
| just started.
| MerelyMortal wrote:
| And if it destroys people's lives, then those people probably
| aren't prioritizing writing online to tell others.
|
| Survivorship Bias?
| Tenoke wrote:
| Not necessarily. I hear a lot more often of all the people
| with destroyed lives by opiates than about all the people
| whose lives are improved(which is if anything a larger
| group).
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > I hear a lot more often of all the people with
| destroyed lives by opiates
|
| They get all the press & panic. The much, much, _much_
| larger group - they 're the people who've become unable
| to be prescribed any pain meds (due to frightened Dr.s, 3
| day state limits on Rx) and now live their lives in pain.
| They're pretty much off everyone's radar.
|
| I have friends with chronic conditions (re:Rhum
| Arthritis) who responsibly took pain meds for years but
| now buy their pain relief off the street. Zero of their
| Dr.s are willing to Rx any opioids. Past that are the now
| commonplace stories of people being Rx Tylenol following
| surgery.
|
| In the last year, I twice had to beg+negotiate for
| _Tramadol_. Once following surgery and once to tamper
| down severe knee pain so I could exercise. That latter
| one came with a "Don't Ask For This Again" vibe.
| awa wrote:
| Can you share some more details? As I have just been
| prescribed Adderall and I want to make sure that's something
| I want to take regularly.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| I've been on Adderall for 15 years. It's brought sweeping,
| positive changes to my life.
|
| I have increased control over thinking & recall and that
| allows my efforts to yield results. It's an everything-
| sized difference.
| astrange wrote:
| It's perfectly safe as long as you monitor your blood
| pressure and remember to eat. The evidence is quite good
| that taking it reduces substance abuse in patients as well.
| jdmoreira wrote:
| If you have been prescribed something, you are under doctor
| supervision so my comment doesn't apply to you. I was
| talking about people doing drugs and/or self medicating.
|
| Just make sure your doctor's loyalty lies with you and not
| with some pharmaceutical company and you will be fine.
| jdmoreira wrote:
| and you could always get a second or third opinion just
| to make sure.
| gunfighthacksaw wrote:
| I used to take noopept in my undergrad. No idea if it worked, or
| if I just started trying and that's why I'm doing well now.
|
| Recently I started to microdose shrooms. Anecdotally, I can
| juuust feel the 'come-up' ie light feeling in stomach and a wave
| of depersonalization, and while the effects on my cognition are
| minor, I feel that thinking is harder, but my intuition gets
| sharper.
| rejectfinite wrote:
| Adderall?? That is medication... I thought nootropics was legal
| things like caffeine and l-theamine?
| Trasmatta wrote:
| The definition is super blurry now, and far from the original
| definition. Some people even consider microdosing shrooms or
| LSD as included.
| manishsharan wrote:
| Can someone please explain how weighlifting figures into this ?
| It is rated ahead of Ritalin .. so does that imply lifting heavy
| weights will improve focus during doing non-physical tasks?
| starkd wrote:
| I think any kind of vigorous excercise does this.
| cossatot wrote:
| Although I didn't read the article, from my personal
| experience, weightlifting during the week helps me focus, and
| in a way that cardio does not. In weeks in which I lift 2-3
| days, at the moderate level that I do (say 45 min of using free
| weights and body weight lifts at a medium pace, nothing
| extreme), I'm much less fidgety than weeks where I'm not able
| to lift, but my brain is still sharp.
|
| This is in contrast to biking or rowing at a moderate pace
| (pusing myself and getting pretty sweaty but not collapsing or
| wanting to barf) for an hour once or twice a week. If I do
| this, I am still less fidgety but I feel more mentally fatigued
| later on the day, and sometimes the morning after, I exercise.
| I attribute this to nutrition/glucose levels and hydration, but
| even drinking a ton of water and snacking won't fully
| ameliorate the issues. The same thing happens after a weekend
| of playing hard, like kayaking one day and hiking with my
| daughter in my backpack the next day. I'm often pretty
| unproductive on Monday (oh well... ;)
|
| What works best for me is moderate weight lifting followed by
| like 30 min of moderate rowing or biking, twice during the work
| week. Although I might feel a bit more depleted after rowing
| than not, my overall energy level is higher than if I skip the
| cardio, and I recover more quickly from my weekend activities.
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| yes it is a long acting nootropic altough the effect while real
| is not acutely perceivable much.
| gaws wrote:
| Troof reads like a wannabe gwern.
| cowanon22dd wrote:
| widowlark wrote:
| This is a large list of things to just say 'going outside is
| really good for you, and has zero side effects and fairly maximal
| effects'
| orangepurple wrote:
| You can cut diamonds with your focus on the third full day of a
| water, salt, and black coffee fast.
| BatFastard wrote:
| It's the "must hunt" instinct cutting in on that third day. I
| loved day 3 of the fast! I fasted 3 days a week for months,
| loved it.
| MetaMonk wrote:
| "Works on my machine!"
| klyrs wrote:
| I reflexively cut people who interrupt my focus on any fast
| longer than a few hours... okay maybe not cut, but the hangry
| is way too intense to interact with humanity.
| paskozdilar wrote:
| So can you on third day of methamphetamine fast, but I don't
| think I'd recommend it to anyone.
| sorenn111 wrote:
| OP was making a comment about efficacy of water fasts; to
| compare water fasts to meth is pretty wild.
| criddell wrote:
| I think they were comparing a water + meth diet with a
| water + caffeine diet.
| paskozdilar wrote:
| I confirm that you are right. It sounded funnier in my
| head.
| orangepurple wrote:
| Why drink water when you can drink METH?
| klyrs wrote:
| Is crystal meth "salt"?
| dopa42365 wrote:
| If there was something that greatly increased performance, you,
| your mom and (nearly) everyone else would know about it and take
| it already.
|
| So far, that's mostly limited to stimulants, with caffeine being
| one of the most used drugs worldwide. It's not some well kept
| secret, you don't have to look out for it, it's everywhere
| (coffee, soft drinks, energy drinks, pre-workout products, it's
| the main ingredient of every gamer-goo mix). It's popular because
| it evidently works.
|
| Spending a ton of money on very questionable nootropics is
| probably not that smart though!
| [deleted]
| tlb wrote:
| Ah, the efficient market hypothesis applied to the most
| inefficient sector of the economy: health. What could go wrong?
| gunfighthacksaw wrote:
| Back in 2011 you could spend less than $20CAD and get enough
| noopept powder for months and months. Tastes like shit though
| (imagine the most bitter thing you've ever had x10) so I'd
| recommend shelling out more for gelcaps, or make them yourself.
| neurocat123 wrote:
| I recently (2021) saw a TV ad on a Russian-language channel
| for noopept, during a visit to Moldova. It included a slow-
| motion happy family. Looks like it's gone mainstream by now
| (at least in some parts of the world).
| Trasmatta wrote:
| > If there was something that greatly increased performance
|
| I'll add "and doesn't have major side effects". Amphetamines
| could probably fit your definition otherwise.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| > few things that aren't chemicals at all like meditation and
| exercise
|
| Those things release, inhibit and moderate chemicals. Your body
| has a lot of drugs in it already.
| tlarkworthy wrote:
| I started using VR as a brain refresher, I feel that should be
| considered too. It's sorta exercise but with more modalities
| Trasmatta wrote:
| Phenylpiracetam and Aniracetam have been the best nootropics for
| me. They offer mild stimulation while also being somewhat
| anxiolytic and mood boosting.
|
| Most of the other ones I've tried seem to do nothing but eat into
| my wallet.
|
| I mostly see effective nootropics as a set of very mild
| stimulants that give some of the benefits without the drawbacks
| of their stronger cousins.
|
| There's also a lot of placebo going on in nootropic communities.
| Just about every week in the nootropics subreddit somebody is
| posting about how something they started taking 3 days ago has
| changed their life.
| carlgreene wrote:
| Ever since quitting stimulants I've been searching for something
| to make life as exciting as it previously was when I was on
| caffeine.
|
| I have tried several nootropics, Tongkat Ali being the latest.
| These things definitely have effects, but the side effects were
| too great for me. I was able to get through the intense nausea,
| felt good for a few weeks and then was getting CRIPPLING anxiety
| whenever I'd take them.
|
| I've just come to the conclusion that day to day life isn't
| really meant to be "exciting" and I've learned to live with it.
|
| The last thing I want to do is become dependent on yet another
| thing to elevate my mood, and feel good. Would much rather focus
| on the external inputs and filter those to provide myself with
| the best mental state.
| ericmcer wrote:
| I think of it less as being dependent on a substance and more
| as being able to cleanly segment my life. Especially with
| something like Adderall XR which has a 6-8 hour duration, it is
| pretty straightforward to turn on and off. Then on days off or
| after work it is easier to feel no particular obligation to do
| anything work related. Another bonus is getting so much done
| when 'on' that your time off is free from any anxiety around
| work achievements.
|
| That said I had a similar relationship to caffeine, it was more
| intense than adderall/ritalin to me but the afternoon drop off
| and affects on sleep/mood were too much and I have cut way
| back.
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