[HN Gopher] The new and upgraded Framework Laptop
___________________________________________________________________
The new and upgraded Framework Laptop
Author : etbusch
Score : 1228 points
Date : 2022-05-19 12:19 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (community.frame.work)
(TXT) w3m dump (community.frame.work)
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| Looks like they didn't change the screen resolution or size,
| There is a person here always complaining about it and might have
| a point. Believe content has to be scaled 1.5x which is
| problematic.
| canuckintime wrote:
| I'm waiting on alternate screen options. The 3K2K OLED screen on
| the HP Specter X360[1] would be a great highend option for me.
|
| Framework is suggesting many customisable options but the wifi
| antenna is behind the screen so it's not a seamless transition. I
| would be interested in a screenless framework (with keyboard or
| just the guts) if they simplify wifi.
|
| So a WiFi module or Cellular module would be a definite buy
|
| [1] https://www.theverge.com/22264792/hp-
| spectre-x360-14-laptop-...
| seltzered_ wrote:
| I'm waiting for a tablet design. I use a 3k2k lcd touchscreen
| on the HP Elite X2 tablet and while it's a more repairable
| design compared to a MacBook or surface, would love something
| with a bit more modularity to add a larger battery or modify
| the casing (see
| https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/comments/tcwep0...
| )
| thrownaway561 wrote:
| why am going to pay $1100 for an i5/8gb/265ssd when I can pay
| $700 for a i5/12gb/1tbHDD. This whole thing reminds me of the
| PANDA project from early 2000s and you all know how well that
| project worked out.
|
| Laptop are throw aways. At the end of their life you recycle them
| and get a new one. The single problem I see with all these type
| of total upgradable devices is that you are still locked into a
| single vendor. Unless other vendors get onboard and you have
| competition, you are at the mercy of the single vendor's pricing
| and existence. How good is an upgradeable laptop when the vendor
| goes out of business and you can't buy parts?
|
| https://frame.work/products/laptop-12-gen-intel/configuratio...
|
| https://www.costco.com/hp-17.3%22-laptop---11th-intel-core-i...
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| Having used a laptop similar to that linked HP in past and now
| comparing spec sheets, I don't really think it's in the same
| class as the framework laptop at all.
|
| Compared to the framework, the HP's:
|
| - CPU is a generation behind
|
| - Screen has low PPI (less sharp), very low brightness, and is
| probably a TN panel, meaning colors will be more dull
|
| - HDD which is a lot slower than an SSD anyway is 5400RPM,
| which is slow even for an HDD
|
| - Battery is 14Wh smaller
|
| - Webcam is 720p instead of 1080p
|
| - Bluetooth and wifi is a whole major version behind
|
| - Charging port is one of those old terrible barrel jacks that
| gets loose quickly
|
| And the build quality is most assuredly not in the same
| universe. Laptops as cheap as this HP are built on razor thin
| margins, which means that manufacturers are cutting costs
| wherever possible. This gets you things like creaky flexy
| cases, loose wobbly hinges, chintzy keyboards, bad trackpads,
| and oddball bargain basement components with less than amazing
| performance.
|
| In short it will be a lot less pleasant to use, even ignoring
| that huge gaps in the spec sheet. Models from other
| manufacturers that would be more comparable to the framework in
| specs and fit and finish are the M1 MacBook Air/Pro, Dell XPS
| 13, and Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| Other vendors are free to produce compatible parts. They
| publish physical dimensions and cad files on github.
|
| Everything about this is as interoperable as possible, both
| physical and software.
|
| Maybe no other vendor will produce a motherboard or keyboard,
| but it's not Framework's fault.
|
| Second, The closest competing product to Framework is Lenovo
| not HP. (Despite the fact they look like a Mac's aluminum body,
| huge buttonless touchpad and black chicklet keys, with a
| Surface's screen aspect ratio.)
|
| HP's customer is someone who would like a Surface or Mac but
| doesn't have that kind of cash, or just cares more about a
| distinctive look that isn't gamer.
|
| Here's HP's customer: I got my mom a top of the line maxxed out
| HP because she will never care about upgrades or repairs or
| Linux or raw power, but she does care about the blingy rich
| bronze look, and I care enough to steer her away from Surface
| and Mac even though I don't care about the cost. That's HP's
| customer.
|
| I WAS actually able to replace the battery in her previous
| Spectre (the sweet thin one with the funky hinges that looked
| like hoop earrings or wedding bands) to give it to my niece
| when I updated mom, but HP did not make that easy.
|
| HP are premium-looking Chromebooks that run Windows.
|
| Framework are user-serviceable open platform Lenovos.
|
| "Why would I spend..." You clearly wouldn't, so don't. But I
| would. Why? goes like this:
|
| I don't particularly care too much about AMD vs Intel, but a
| lot of people are asking for an AMD cpu motherboard.
|
| Let's say Framework did not make a an AMD motherboard, but
| someome else did. Let's say that the only way to get a
| Framework was to either buy a whole Framework including an
| Intel mainboard I don't want, PLUS the 3rd party motherboard
| for $500 or whatever it is. I would rather do that, because I
| want that open platform. First, Framework would not make me buy
| the entire machine, they would let me buy everything but the
| main oard. But even if they didn't, that mainboard I didn't
| want is actually useable all by itself like a 900 horsepower
| raspberry pi. Or I could sell it, because it's useful to anyone
| else too. Or I could keep it as a backup in case I damage my
| prefferred board. That _platform_ which makes all kinds of
| options possible, is valuable to me.
|
| No one yet makes any such 3rd party mainboard, but the platform
| at least allows for it and makes it possible vs not-possible. I
| want that. That is valuable to me. I will pay a lot for that.
| coldpie wrote:
| > Laptop are throw aways. At the end of their life you recycle
| them and get a new one. The single problem I see with all these
| type of total upgradable devices is that you are still locked
| into a single vendor. How good is an upgradeable laptop when
| the vendor goes out of business and you can't buy parts?
|
| I agree with your skepticism. But, I don't agree that it has to
| be this way. Framework is giving another model a chance, and
| yeah, it may fail. But Frameworks are no /more/ disposable than
| any other laptop, so I guess I don't see a downside to at least
| giving it a shot if it's at an acceptable price and has a
| desirable feature set. You're right that the commodity hardware
| is cheaper, but I guess I can live with paying a bit more to
| try something else out and support an alternate model.
| bl4ckneon wrote:
| Well first off the laptop you linked is an 11th gen cpu vs the
| frame work which just upgraded to a 12 gen. The framework isn't
| an amazing value dollar for dollar, spec for spec. That is not
| why you buy one though...
|
| Is all about the upgradability, the open source aspect,
| sustainability, etc. Good luck if you want to open your Lenovo
| laptop and want to get it warrentyed for anything.
| thebiglebrewski wrote:
| Super excited about this launch today! Come work with us on the
| Rails monolith that powers https://frame.work/ if you're stoked
| too - we're hiring a Senior Full Stack Engineer:
| https://jobs.lever.co/framework/1d6559b2-ccf9-4391-bded-6303...
|
| Lots of exciting projects coming up as we expand the Marketplace
| around the world and have more big launches on the horizon. Fully
| remote, and having every other Friday off is a nice benefit :)
| BirAdam wrote:
| Why oh why does every decent laptop have a 1080p screen?
| Apparently, if I want something other than 1080p I either buy a
| MacBook and pay the Apple Tax, or I buy something overpriced and
| often terrible in every other way?
| Terretta wrote:
| > _I either buy a MacBook and pay the Apple Tax, or I buy
| something overpriced and often terrible in every other way?_
|
| So it's not really a tax then, it's a quality cost.
| 30944836 wrote:
| Because Linux's support for HiDPI (specifically, fractional
| scaling) is limited.
| jwcooper wrote:
| This laptop has a 2256x1504 screen. The webcam is 1080p.
| nrp wrote:
| The Framework Laptop's display is 2256x1504.
| sryie wrote:
| I recently received my first framework laptop after being a loyal
| Thinkpad user for years. I am loving it so far. I run Ubuntu
| 22.04 daily and have not had any issues with battery life or the
| lid (but I do typically leave it plugged in during lunch and
| overnight). The expansion cards are brilliant and the keyboard is
| comparable to my old t-series. The aspect ratio is great for
| coding and I'm happy to see upgradeability is being taken
| seriously as promised. If I can get 5-10 years out of it like my
| old ThinkPads (all while upgrading piecewise along the way) I
| will be a fan for life.
| prohobo wrote:
| I heard the keyboard is good, but do you mean the newer
| T-series chiclet keyboards?
| sryie wrote:
| Yes, I owned a t430 (and also a yoga 14) so the keys on the
| framework are a little wider. I can still feel the keypresses
| and they are a little "softer" and quieter. I use vim
| frequently so I do still miss the trackpoint and buttons at
| the top of the touchpad but it hasn't been as big of a
| problem as I anticipated. I am also still adjusting to the
| cntrl/fn placement but I think a lot of people swapped that
| in the bios anyways so it might be normal for others.
| xur17 wrote:
| If you haven't already, I highly recommend configuring your
| capslock key to act as a control key.
| Goronmon wrote:
| _I recently received my first framework laptop after being a
| loyal Thinkpad user for years._
|
| I get excited about different laptops occasionally...and then I
| remember that I won't have a trackpoint if I switch to a
| different brand, and I get disappointed. Literally happens
| every few months.
| s0rce wrote:
| I loved the TrackPoint and still miss it occasionally, had
| one on my T41p from IBM, however, I've been really happy with
| my Macbook (2011 Air and 2020 M1 Pro) trackpad, its
| lightyears ahead of any other ones I used on PC laptops and
| just works seamlessly. My Dell laptop from work the trackpad
| is garbage.
| riedel wrote:
| I am posting the same thing every time framework pops up on
| HN. I hope the nudging will do it's work eventually.
|
| Meanwhile I am wondering why there aren't many third party
| mods for the framework around. Would it be feasible to design
| a trackpoint keyboard (if you figure out how to put it in the
| profile) ? Does it connect via USB or alike internally?
| pauke wrote:
| Business class Dells and HPs have one too. Named differently
| because TM but good enough.
| cooperadymas wrote:
| I would challenge you to find a 2022 Dell or HP with a
| trackpoint.
| guardiangod wrote:
| https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-
| elitebook-840-g8-notebo...
|
| Just got a new one from work. It's literally in front of
| me right now.
|
| Granted the laptop's build quality is questionable (the
| right hinge's case bulges higher than the left) and the
| trackpoint has a tendency to get stuck to one direction.
| samstave wrote:
| I have a flagship HP Omen 15" gaming laptop. The case is
| garbage, but the screen and guts are good.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| Oh man, I have an 845 g8 (840 with amd). I hate this
| laptop with a passion. It could've been such a great
| tool, but it's a steaming PoS because HP wanted to make a
| quick buck.
|
| I don't have your hinge issue. But, as you open the
| display, the hinge gets below the laptop's feet. So now
| it slides around on the table. Which is so stupid,
| because this laptop doesn't have 4 feet, but 2 large
| ones, than run the width of the laptop. Which is
| fantastic if you want to use it on the corner of a table
| since it won't wobble!
|
| Then there's the screen. I swear someone at HP wanted to
| see how shitty a screen they could get away with in a
| 2000 euro laptop (which is just a middle of the road
| config, mind you). On basic models, you have a 6 bit
| screen. On higher-end ones, they have this security
| screen thingy that massacres the viewing angles _even
| when it 's off_. If you move your head around the tiniest
| bit (say while listening to music) the colors will
| perceptibly change. The colors are atrocious. And they
| don't even hide it! The specs say 72% NTSC (not sRGB,
| which is much wider).
|
| Then you have your usual suspects with cheap laptops: the
| cooler is an absolute joke, the fan developed a horrible
| noise in a few months. There's coil whine that drives you
| up a wall when connecting a USB-C monitor + power.
|
| On the plus side, the analog headphone out is
| surprisingly good. I don't hear any background noise,
| there's no whine when moving the mouse, and the sound is
| similar to my Retina MBP on relatively high-end
| headphones.
|
| It also works very well on Linux, I'd say it's even
| better than Windows: I've installed a fresh copy of
| Windows 11 and I can't get the camera to work. It works
| perfectly on Linux.
| jackbravo wrote:
| The HP EliteBook laptops still have trackpads. For
| example this one: https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-
| elitebook-850-g8-notebo...
| stevephilp wrote:
| Although technically released in late 2021, the HP
| Elitebook 855 G8 has a trackpoint.
| pauke wrote:
| Ouch, that hurts. It seems you're right at least about
| Dells, and HPs are going too.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| Won't fix one child-comment on quality, but is there a TP
| keyboard that would physically fit the hole in the framework.
| A physical shim would be easy easier; I'm assuming (possibly
| wrongly) that they connect via an internal USB connection?
| tluyben2 wrote:
| That's why I have high hopes for (something like) the
| Frame.work; it should be possible to just get another
| keyboard 'part' which actually does have a trackpoint (and
| even no trackpad but other stuff theoretically). Someone,
| either Frame.work themselves or someone else needs to make
| it, but at least it's possible.
|
| Edit: I would pay for such a keyboard for the Frame.work; it
| would actually very much stimulate me to buy one! I really
| hope to see crowdfunding from people who _just_ make a
| Frame.work part.
| Melatonic wrote:
| Seriously - or at least a mod kit to get it working with
| the existing keyboard. Hell there could even maybe be a
| universal mod kit to add to any laptop keyboard that is
| removeable and has the space!
| pedrocr wrote:
| Yep, same here. And with increasing urgency as Thinkpad
| quality control seems to have fallen off a cliff. Framework
| seems uniquely positioned to fix this though. Someone just
| needs to do a compatible top cover that takes Thinkpad
| keyboards. I'd take a stupid one without touchpad at all as I
| just disable it anyway. That shouldn't be too hard, it's
| mostly getting the plastic right and adapting the connector
| to the motherboard.
| csdvrx wrote:
| > Yep, same here. And with increasing urgency as Thinkpad
| quality control seems to have fallen off a cliff.
|
| Not really, they are among the rare laptops to still offer
| S3 for Linux.
|
| And the X1 Fold is a technical marvel (working on Linux
| support right now, if I'm successful it may become my next
| toy device to try to use Linux on as a daily driver)
|
| > Framework seems uniquely positioned to fix this though.
| Someone just needs to do a compatible top cover that takes
| Thinkpad keyboards.
|
| This. I will buy one as soon as they make a thinkpad like
| keyboard [+] or the possibly to disassemble and mount a
| genuine Thinkpad keyboard.
|
| + : A keyboard qualifies as a "thinkpad keyboard" if has
| all of the following:
|
| - PageUp above Left, PageDown above Right: to me, that's
| the most important thing ever!
|
| - PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very
| important too
|
| - Delete above Backspace
|
| - A trackpoint between the {G,H,B} keys with 3 buttons
| below the Spacebar: I'm not a trackpoint fanatic but I
| appreciate the precision it offers when I need it, and
| badly felt its absence when I tried a macbook (no, can't
| do!)
| Liskni_si wrote:
| > A keyboard qualifies as a "thinkpad keyboard" if has
| all of the following:
|
| > PageUp above Left, PageDown above Right: to me, that's
| the most important thing ever!
|
| > PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very
| important too
|
| That's not a proper ThinkPad keyboard at all. That's the
| new 6-row fake which has 10 fewer keys than a proper
| ThinkPad keyboard, which is this one: https://laptopkeys.
| com/uploads/704_1348778226_Lenovo%20t410s...
| csdvrx wrote:
| That's what available now: except on the T25, the old
| layout is no longer found on modern Thinkpads.
|
| This modern layout has advantages: for example, the space
| between the keys makes it more comfortable to use with
| nails, so I no longer have to keep them short.
| Liskni_si wrote:
| > This modern layout has advantages: for example, the
| space between the keys makes it more comfortable to use
| with nails, so I no longer have to keep them short.
|
| Layout and the shape of keys are orthogonal concepts.
|
| But yeah, you're right that there aren't many options
| these days, and the T25 is getting old. :-(
| rkagerer wrote:
| Youch does nobody else go haywire that Fn and Ctrl keys
| are in the 'wrong' spots?
| csdvrx wrote:
| There's a bios option to swap them, and custom firmwares
| doing the same for the thinkpad bluetooth keyboard
| pmlnr wrote:
| That is the correct one. FN first, ctrl next. See DEC,
| and IBM.
| pedrocr wrote:
| > Not really, they are among the rare laptops to still
| offer S3 for Linux.
|
| The features are great but my complaint was about quality
| control. My T460s has had every single part but the
| chassis replaced, some multiple times, and still failed.
| A new T14s had to have the keyboard replaced because it
| randomly missed keystrokes. It then started having the
| screen randomly start flickering after resume. A new X1,
| top of the line 4K spec, has the internal screen randomly
| lose sync. The days of Thinkpads as dependable machines
| seem gone.
| bitwize wrote:
| The sense I'm getting is that my 2014 T450s was one of
| the last few "acceptable" ThinkPads.
|
| If I need a new laptop, it will be a Framework.
| loosescrews wrote:
| I have had similar experiences with the X1 Extreme. The
| biggest issue I have had is that the repair process
| almost always breaks something new. The first one spent
| so much time getting repaired that I actually bought a
| second one so that I could at least have one functional
| laptop. The second one is a newer generation, but the
| quality issues are similar.
| csdvrx wrote:
| > A new X1, top of the line 4K spec, has the internal
| screen randomly lose sync. The days of Thinkpads as
| dependable machines seem gone.
|
| I believe it's all due to the large hardware and firmware
| changes.
|
| Take for example USB-C: we don't know yet how to make
| study ports. My X1 had its motherboard replaced due to a
| dead port.
|
| Or look at ACPI S0ix: it's only since last year that it's
| become comparable to S3 in power consumption (and S3 is
| no longer officially supported since Intel 11th gen)
|
| The keyboard too changed: the layout is the same as the
| xx30 series, but there's less travel.
|
| Likewise, the screens are now 2k or 4k with thinner
| bezels, and intel HUD ("Xe graphic") is quite different
| from the previous generations: even if it's handled by
| the same i915 driver on Linux, GUC/HUC are more
| important, and disabling PSR no longer makes sense.
|
| Change is constant, but I believe pre pandemic and post
| pandemic Thinkpads are very different beasts.
| kikoreis wrote:
| I thought it was just me!!!
| sryie wrote:
| Yep, the trackpoint (and buttons on top of the touchpad) are
| huge. I am a heavy vim user so those were extremely
| convenient but I have been trying to get comfortable with tap
| to click because that seems to be the way laptop
| manufacturers have headed (and I don't want my efficiency to
| suddenly collapse when I am put behind any other brand of
| computer). I am also still holding out some small hope that
| someone will come up with a way to swap it in to a framework
| laptop but I'm not holding my breath.
| KerrickStaley wrote:
| The Trackpoint seems redundant to me because I can manipulate
| the trackpad with my thumb without leaving the home row, and
| for me it's faster and more comfortable than a Trackpoint.
|
| Using your thumb to control the trackpad works better on Mac
| laptops because the Force Touch trackpad allows you to press
| anywhere to click. Most PC laptops have a "diving board"
| click mechanism which means it gets progressively harder to
| click the further you are from the bottom, and clicking near
| the top is impossible. Also, Mac laptops position the top of
| the trackpad closer to the keyboard than other laptops I've
| seen.
|
| You can use tap-to-click as a work-around for being unable to
| click the top of the trackpad, but I find tap-to-click less
| usable for other reasons.
| soperj wrote:
| how do you scroll with just your thumb? how do you paste
| into your terminal?
| sryie wrote:
| Is there a way to middle click with this method? I use that
| often for new tabs and ThinkPads have the physical button
| at the top and tap to click is just three fingers.
| innocenat wrote:
| If it's only for open in new tab, then Ctrl+Left Click
| work as well when using trackpad.
| fendy3002 wrote:
| Middle click is very useful to close tab, which the
| alternative is to move cursor to a much smaller close
| button.
|
| Especially on some apps (iirc pgadmin) where the tabs has
| no close button, that we need to right click and choose a
| menu to close a tab.
| hgomersall wrote:
| Pasting from the primary buffer is surely the main use
| case for middle click?
| spaniard89277 wrote:
| We're on the same boat. IDK what to do honestly. Hope someone
| makes a keyboard with trackpoint for the framework.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| Same. Everytime I get excited about Framework, Syste7m6,
| etc... and then get sad.
|
| I fully understand I'm a vanishing minority, But trackpoint
| is such a productivity booster for me, and makes such amazing
| use of space in a laptop format, that it's a must-have (and
| again, I fully understand that those who don't use Trackpoint
| will have no comprehension of what am I going on about; I'm a
| grouchy quirky old man :).
|
| Then there's other little things that may or may not be
| trackpad related - small function keys, lack of standard
| home/end/insert/del/pgup/pgdown cluster, and the collapsed
| arrows which I don't even understand - you have the room,
| it's right there, nothing is using it... why is everybody
| making up and down arrows functionally unusable (I want to
| blame Apple, but as Obi Wan said - who's the bigger fool, the
| fool, or the fool that follows :)
| Melatonic wrote:
| Trackpoint really is damn nice. I also find it hilarious
| when I disable the trackpad in the bios to avoid any
| accidental brushes and then someone else tries to use my
| laptop - its like watching a deer try to walk for the first
| time!
| hgomersall wrote:
| Same here, though I have a key combination (ctrl-space)
| to toggle the trackpad.
| cptnapalm wrote:
| You can disable the trackpad in the BIOS? A whole new,
| better world has opened up to me! I hate trackpads.
| bigpeopleareold wrote:
| I taught myself just last year to use the trackpoint
| because I was curious. I turned it off at the BIOS, etc.
| just to make me use it exclusively. Once I got over the
| hump, I was surprised. I don't want keyboards anymore
| without it. I developed a strong muscle memory for it over
| the year. I'm a grouchy quirky old man, but when it comes
| to trackpoints, I am new to this quirk :D
| philjohn wrote:
| Having had a trackpoint laptop since the 90's, the only
| thing that I found I could switch to when moving to a job
| that gave all engineers Mac's was the MBP track pad - the
| gestures and precision/feel just about made up for the
| loss of not having to move hands from the home row.
|
| But yeah, sad that more laptops don't have trackpoints.
| ziml77 wrote:
| Similar story here. All the laptops I used had the
| trackpoint and I didn't want to give it up until I tried
| an MBP in 2012. The trackpad was miles better than any
| other trackpad I'd used. Other machines have gotten
| better trackpads now, though I still haven't tried one
| that is as good as the current MacBook trackpads. But at
| least I don't hate every moment of using non-Mac
| trackpads anymore.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| Is this on a thinkpad? My HP EliteBook has a track point
| and I haven't found any config that makes it usable. The
| tracking is either way too quick or way too slow. And the
| acceleration curve is either very steep or non-existent.
|
| I've tried it on both Windows and Linux. I realize I'm
| not used to it, in the beginning I used to have a hard
| time with mice, too, so maybe it's just a question of
| habit.
|
| For the moment, the only thing it does is leave a round
| trace on my screen whenever I close it...
| pmlnr wrote:
| The HP's have 2 keys, not 3. The middle is the one you
| push to use the trackpoint to scroll with. Hp simply
| crippled it
| kwertyoowiyop wrote:
| It's almost worth getting a "gamer laptop" just to get
| full-sized up/down arrow keys.
| csdvrx wrote:
| > the collapsed arrows which I don't even understand - you
| have the room, it's right there, nothing is using it... why
| is everybody making up and down arrows functionally
| unusable (I want to blame Apple, but as Obi Wan said -
| who's the bigger fool, the fool, or the fool that follows
| :)
|
| This so much!!
|
| I miss PageUp and PageDown there so much I refuse to buy
| anything but thinkpads right now.
|
| The last alternative brand was Dell, which adopted the
| stupidly huge Left and Right arrows, and that's even seen
| on customer line Lenovos now :(
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| HPs still have dedicated pgup / home /etc in a column, to
| the right of backspace / enter / etc. But they've also
| adopted the stupid arrow cluster you describe.
| acomjean wrote:
| When I was at IBM I had a mouse with a trackpoint for
| scrolling. It was pretty great. I miss being able to move
| and scroll at variable speeds.
|
| https://www.microsoft.com/buxtoncollection/detail.aspx?id=1
| 2...
|
| and a paper: https://www.microsoft.com/buxtoncollection/a/p
| df/Zhai%20scro...
| the_pwner224 wrote:
| It's not the same, but the Logitech MX Master is
| basically the current version of this.
|
| It has two scrollwheels, one for vertical and one for
| horizontal. They have some interesting tech in them. When
| moved slowly they click with detents, like normal
| scrollwheels. But when you move the wheels more quickly
| they "unlock" to spin freely, you can scroll at a pretty
| high speed and with good accuracy.
| evil-olive wrote:
| here [0] is a teardown of the current generation compared
| to the previous, to show how much design and attention to
| detail goes in to them.
|
| I was an MX Master 2 user for years, and bought a 3,
| along with an MX Keys [1] at the beginning of covid WFH.
| still going strong 2 years later, and I would buy both
| again in a heartbeat.
|
| 0: https://blog.bolt.io/logitech-mx-master-3-vs-2s/
|
| 1: https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/keyboards/mx-
| keys-wi...
| tomc1985 wrote:
| I looooooove this feature of the MX Master mice, but I
| went through 2 of them in two years. They do not seem
| particularly well-built.
| kybernetikos wrote:
| I had problems with the Master 2, but my Master 3 has
| been very reliable.
| jjeaff wrote:
| Do the scroll wheels have "weight" to them? In other
| words, can you give it a good spin and let it keep
| spinning on its own momentum?
| beAbU wrote:
| Yes. I have the previous gen Master MX. The scroll wheel
| is a solid metal flywheel. It has serious heft and
| continues spinning maybe 5-10 seconds after a good flick.
|
| On mine, the horizontal wheel does not have this feature.
| Maybe the newer model does.
|
| And like another poster mentioned, it has a detent when
| scrolling slowly like a traditional scrollwheel, that
| then mechanically disengages when flicked fast enough.
| You can configure this sensitivity in software, and even
| map one of the mouse buttons to disengage the detent, if
| you dont like the smart scroll feature.
|
| Its seriously the best designed mouse I've ever used.
| It's clear logitech spent a lot of effort thinking about
| what makes a good mouse really good, and they implemented
| that in this mouse. Truly a flagship device, without
| cruft or unnecessary crap.
|
| Battery life after about 4 years is so-so, so I keep a
| usb cable on my desk to plug it in when it runs low. I
| get about 2 weeks out of it?
|
| Materials are also degrading a bit, it's surface is
| becoming sticky like many "velvet" finish plastics do,
| but its not at a point where it's gross to hold.
|
| Its held up very very well after roughly 1000 work days
| of use. It's cost per day of use is basically 0.
| evil-olive wrote:
| > On mine, the horizontal wheel does not have this
| feature. Maybe the newer model does.
|
| I have both the current model and the older one. the
| horizontal wheel has been improved a bit - it's larger,
| and they moved the side buttons so that it's harder to
| hit them accidentally when scrolling horizontally (see
| this [0] comparison pic from a teardown [1] that I also
| linked elsewhere in this thread)
|
| but the "shifting" feature is still only for the main
| scrollwheel, not the horizontal one. in practice I've
| never found myself using horizontal scroll often enough
| to wish it had the same "flick" capability.
|
| 0: https://blog.bolt.io/wp-
| content/uploads/2019/10/side.png
|
| 1: https://blog.bolt.io/logitech-mx-master-3-vs-2s/
| sobjornstad wrote:
| I just took a stopwatch to mine and it spun for 10
| seconds. In real life you would give it another whirl
| after a couple of seconds because it starts to slow down,
| but the short answer is clearly yes.
| the_pwner224 wrote:
| Yep, the scrollwheels are metal so they have some heft
| and they do keep spinning.
|
| I haven't used the MX Master, only very briefly tested a
| display unit at a store, but I do _believe_ that it spun
| for a while. So I 'd check a video review first if you're
| thinking of buying one.
|
| I personally use their G(aming) series mice with their
| older manual, mechanical mechanism instead of the new
| electromagnetic one in the MX Master. The G mice spin for
| a while... 15 seconds after a solid flick.
| robotguy wrote:
| Back in the late '90s, I worked for an inventor dealing
| with analog dome switches. We took a mouse that had a
| rocker for scrolling instead of a wheel and I
| reprogrammed it to "fake" scroll clicks faster or slower
| depending on how hard you pressed. You could scroll slow
| enough to read, or zoom to the end of a doc with really
| good control. Man I miss that mouse.
| xur17 wrote:
| I used to love my trackpoint, and swore by it, but I was
| unable to get my mouse to go fast enough on my latest X1
| carbon, so I've sadly stopped using it..
| dorfsmay wrote:
| How do you use your mouse in a car, on a plane, on the
| couch?
| xur17 wrote:
| I mistyped - meant trackpoint not mouse. The maximum
| trackpoint speed on ubuntu is waay to slow, so I gave up
| on it.
| ddoolin wrote:
| I genuinely had no idea people still used those, or that they
| were still made with those.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| It's one of those things that once you invest into the
| learning curve, you're a cultish convert (I certainly am
| one:)
| mrtranscendence wrote:
| I've tried them, but they felt so clumsy to me that I
| don't see how I could ever be a convert. Trackpads, at
| least on Macs, feel precise and intuitive; I even use one
| on the desktop (unless I'm gaming).
|
| I suppose a trackpoint might be useful if you _really_
| want your hands never to leave your keyboard, but
| generally I 'm either editing text with emacs keybindings
| (where I don't have to use the mouse), or else I'm in a
| mode where having one hand off the keyboard doesn't feel
| at all hindering.
|
| Maybe I could be convinced, but since they're hard to
| find these days and getting harder there wouldn't be much
| point (except to frustrate myself on the off chance I
| ended up loving them).
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| >>they felt so clumsy to me that I don't see how I could
| ever be a convert.
|
| They do have a learning curve; but FWIW, I feel exact the
| opposite - I can achieve both lightning fast movement,
| AND pixel-perfect precision with the trackpoint (the
| latter I have never managed to consistently achieve on a
| trackpad).
|
| (Note, for me, it's never a "Trackpoint vs Mouse". I'll
| use mouse 100% of the time when at my desk. When not at
| the desk though, it's "Trackpoint vs Trackpad", and for
| the amount of space it takes, the compromises it instills
| in keyboard layout and ergonomics, Trackpad never quite
| worked for me. On aside, I miss the potential of netbooks
| because a 10" screen with Trackpoint would be a
| formidable hyper-portable machine with today's ARM
| processors - but not if you need to reserve 5 inches for
| a trackpad :| )
| bitwize wrote:
| > (the latter I have never managed to consistently
| achieve on a trackpad).
|
| Ever try an Apple trackpad?
| IshKebab wrote:
| What learning curve? Isn't it just a joystick mouse?
|
| I think they were competitive with old touchpads (and
| probably the ones you still get on cheap laptops) but I
| expect all the people above praising them have just never
| used a modern Apple touchpad. _Far_ superior. It 's not
| even close.
|
| There's a good reason nobody makes them anymore.
| mrtranscendence wrote:
| > What learning curve? Isn't it just a joystick mouse?
|
| They don't have a learning curve in the sense that it's
| difficult to make one functional, but when I did try a
| trackpoint I felt it terribly awkward and imprecise. I'm
| not at all surprised that there would be a transition
| period after which trackpoints at least _felt_ better to
| use.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| >>There's a good reason nobody makes them anymore.
|
| But they do. Last I checked HP, Dell and Lenovo all had
| options for power users (not in their consumer / mid-
| range laptops though). Or at the very least, my last
| several and current clients have all sent me laptops with
| a Trackpoint from those three brands (and not to my
| asking; it's just fairly standard for mobile employees or
| enterprise customers to have Trackpoint included)
|
| >>What learning curve? Isn't it just a joystick mouse?
|
| well, no - to me, that's an inherent contradiction: Mouse
| and trackpad are both positional (as largely is
| trackball). Joystick, trackpoint are directional. They
| are fundamentally different paradigms.
|
| In terms of learning curve, I do believe Trackpoint is
| less intuitive for most users, as it does have that
| different paradigm. I think it takes a bit of time to get
| really good at it - most people who use it for a few
| minutes feel it's inferior and clumsy. But I've had
| "races" with my colleagues with Macbooks, and spoiler -
| I'll agree it's not even close, but not necessarily in
| the direction you might expect 0:-)
|
| (on aside, I do have a Macbook, it's about 4 years old.
| How new does a modern it need to be to fit your
| definition of a modern Apple Trackpad?
| efsavage wrote:
| > The aspect ratio is great for coding
|
| If I ever need to buy a laptop this would be a huge feature for
| me, I would _love_ if they still made 4:3 displays for
| desktops, it 's so much better for the triple-wide setup I
| prefer, especially on the sides.
| ProZsolt wrote:
| Curved ultrawide is the way to go. I can run three apps side-
| by-side on my a 38" Dell.
| xur17 wrote:
| > and the keyboard is comparable to my old t-series.
|
| Really happy to hear this bit since it's my main concern when
| buying a new laptop. My 2 other questions - how long does the
| battery last, and how is overall build quality?
| sryie wrote:
| I am happy with the build quality so far. It feels sturdy and
| lightweight. The laptop is noticeably lighter and thinner
| than my old ThinkPad. With the lid open it is about the same
| height as my 14 inch but there is more vertical screen real
| estate because there is less black around the display area. I
| have read about issues with the hinges but I think this has
| been fixed now. I have not had hinge issues. I opened up the
| laptop to take a look inside when I first got it and
| everything came apart and went back together nicely (my only
| surprise was one screw does not come out all the way by
| design which I had to Google about). The expansion slots are
| maybe a little too sturdy and require a good amount of force
| to remove.
|
| For battery life I think an average user can expect 5 to 6
| hours. I use mine for about 5 hours with Firefox (around
| 10-20 tabs) and a few terminal processes and will still have
| about 20% remaining.
| favadi wrote:
| Do you have any problem with resolution, screen scaling? I
| think it requires 1.5x scaling, which often cause screen
| tearing and artifacts on Linux.
| rcthompson wrote:
| I run at 2x scaling and then set the text scaling factor to
| .85, so the effective text scaling becomes 1.7, and I avoid
| the issues with non-integer scaling in Wayland.
| sryie wrote:
| Oh, good point. Yes, my resolution is 2256x1504 and found the
| 1x too small so I have to scale it up. I haven't had any
| issues but I also typically do lower level and back end type
| work (occasional front end when needed). I also haven't done
| any gaming with the laptop (except some minor experimentation
| with Godot). If you are a designer or serious artist I
| recommend at least trying out your os with fractional scaling
| first.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _have not had any issues with battery life_
|
| Looks like it can be charged from any USB-C port you install in
| it.
|
| Much better than my work-assigned ThinkPad, which only allows
| charging through one specific port. As if everyone on the
| planet has their wall plug in the same location.
| sryie wrote:
| Yeah, that is a nice feature. I put USB c ports on both sides
| so I can plug it in based on where an outlet is relative to
| where I'm sitting.
| bitwize wrote:
| Love the shoutouts to the recent Framework Mainboard cyberdeck
| projects. Framework is clearly right out in front in terms of
| hacker community goodwill. Keep it up, guys -- push it further.
| With enough clout, as an OEM you might be able to push back
| against Intel on things like ME, and make our hardware even more
| freedom-respecting.
| Oxodao wrote:
| There are "battery life improvement" will those be available to
| 1st gen Frameworks motherboard or is it hardware related ?
|
| And do anyone know if the bug in the HDMI card preventing it to
| go to sleep is still a thing / need a firmware update / is
| hopeless ?
| nrp wrote:
| We have a firmware update in testing to improve shut down (S5)
| drain. For s0ix, we are investigating firmware paths to reduce
| power consumption. The card itself actually does go to into a
| low power state, but the USB4/TBT4 retimer stays in a higher
| power state. That is something we were able to fix in a
| combination of hardware and firmware on the new 12th Gen Intel
| Core systems for s0ix/Modern Standby. We're investigating paths
| to improve this that would work for 11th Gen as well, but
| nothing final yet.
| ZeroCool2u wrote:
| Congrats on the launch! FW is on my shortlist for my next
| laptop.
|
| Would you consider having someone on the team do a more in
| depth technical write-up of the work that went into the
| battery life optimization? I'd personally be very interested
| in reading that as a long time Linux laptop user.
| baybal2 wrote:
| cebert wrote:
| I'm excited about Framework Laptops but am holding out for them
| to release and AMD-based model. I have no interest in supporting
| Intel.
| jmakov wrote:
| Ryzen?
| spullara wrote:
| Can I reassign the ctrl and fn keys? I don't use Fn and it is
| super annoying that it is where it is.
| digisign wrote:
| If not you can almost always swap with Caps lock via software.
| That should slowly break the dependence on the corner key.
| gadflyinyoureye wrote:
| Please make your forums have a link to the actual site.
| motiejus wrote:
| Any photos of how the ethernet expansion card will look like
| while plugged in? Looks like it's bigger than the expansion slot.
|
| I intend to keep it there permanently, which brings questions
| about durability, especially when carrying the laptop around.
| nrp wrote:
| It is oversized, but robust enough to keep installed (I have
| been for the last few months dogfooding it). We'll add more
| photos of it installed to the product page for it before we
| open sales on it to make sure folks know what they are getting
| into before buying.
| foodstances wrote:
| https://frame.work/products/ethernet-expansion-card
| rkagerer wrote:
| As in, sticks out past the edge of the laptop?
| CalRobert wrote:
| Thank you for making an upgrade kit! Very happy with the
| Framework I bought 2 months ago but seeing options like this -
| https://frame.work/gb/en/products/12-gen-intel-upgrade-kit - is
| nice.
| noveltyaccount wrote:
| This is so amazing. If I had a 10th or 11th gen i7 laptop, no
| way I'd rush out and buy a new laptop for two or three grand.
| But a new mainboard for $600? Yeah, that's an annual upgrade
| train I can get on!
| Sebb767 wrote:
| Given that one of their stated targets is sustainability,
| this sounds like Jevons paradox [0]. This might be averted a
| bit, though, if you reuse the old mainboards for things like
| a homeserver.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
| rowanG077 wrote:
| How are the thermals on these chips? 11th gen and prior was bad
| enough with basically all laptops having significant throttling
| issues. Is that fixed now on the 12th gen? I bought an XPS 13
| last year and even with extensive modding and disabling turbo
| boost it still throttles the iGPU.
| 5- wrote:
| congrats on the update!
|
| framework is a great laptop with macbook-like chassis.
|
| all that's needed to make me and a vocal minority happy is an
| alternative thinkpad-like chassis.
| Markoff wrote:
| more like 7 row thinkpad keyboard for starters
| Pasorrijer wrote:
| Any plans for discrete graphics?
| corderop wrote:
| I'm pretty excited about this Intel P chips of the 12th
| generation. It's seems they are going to be a good competitor for
| M1 for the Linux world. At least, benchmarks show good numbers,
| we'll see.
| pizza234 wrote:
| Alder Lake is still not fully supported by Linux (improvements
| are coming with v5.181, which is not stable yet, and it will take
| a while to be released into several linux distros (at least the
| Ubuntu based)).
|
| It's a shame, because it would have been a great moment to offer
| an AMD alternative.
|
| 1=https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/news/intel-thread-director-c...
| smoldesu wrote:
| Alder Lake works just fine on Linux, it's only Thread Director
| which is missing. Not that these machines would really even
| need it, the current CPU prioritization code seems to work
| surprisingly well.
| howinteresting wrote:
| Think most distros have backported the Alder Lake patches to
| their kernels.
| ripley12 wrote:
| Things are fine on Linux even without Thread Director support.
| I've been running Fedora 36 (kernel v5.17) on a 12900K for a
| few months now without any noticeable issues.
| neurostimulant wrote:
| The Ethernet Expansion Card seems to be using USB type C
| connector. Can it works on non Framework computers?
|
| Also, anyone has recommendation for great affordable router with
| 2.5 gigabit ethernet ports for home lab setup? I've been
| searching for one but it seems only gaming routers include these
| ports. I prefer something more enterprisy (lots of options to
| tinker with like mikrotik or pfsense), but those usually don't
| come with 2.5 gigabit ethernet ports, instead they (the
| affordable ones) have plenty of 1 gigabit ethernet ports and a
| single sfp+ port. Or should I bite the bullet and go full sfp+
| for home lab setup?
| nrp wrote:
| Yep! It will work as a normal USB-C Ethernet adapter, but due
| to the form factor, there is risk that you can apply an
| excessive amount of torque to a normal USB-C receptacle if the
| Ethernet cable gets pulled.
| pedrocr wrote:
| It doesn't seem like a great option compared to a normal
| USB-C or A ethernet dongle because of that. Those are slim
| enough that they're basically a continuation of the ethernet
| cable and as a benefit also unplug when yanked. This one
| doesn't even fit within the normal adapter form factor of the
| framework.
| rgrmrts wrote:
| I would buy a 15/16" version of this in a heartbeat :) I really
| hope another chassis with a larger screen is in the cards for
| framework!
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| Hdpi, with a more sane aspect ratio and hdr that is suitable
| for graphics work would be high on my wish list.
|
| I actually like using Darktable. And I like using it on a good
| screen better. So even though I have a Linux laptop that runs
| Darktable very nicely (even with just Intel Xe graphics), I
| actually do a lot of photo editing on my 8 year old imac, which
| has a 5K screen, fantastic contrast & colors, etc. It shows me
| stuff my laptop is simply incapable of showing. Darktable runs
| like a dog on it but at least I can see what I'm doing properly
| and have enough screen real estate to actually fit the tools in
| the sidebar on the screen without having to scroll.
|
| I'd love to see Linux laptop that is optimal for graphics,
| movie editing, etc. Mediocre 1080p screens are simply not good
| enough anymore. Apple stopped shipping anything non hdpi years
| ago. Even the cheapest macbook air has a decent screen. Decent
| contrast, easy to calibrate, beautiful colors and excellent
| dynamic range. Probably best in class by any objective measure.
| Why can't Linux users get screens that good? It's not like
| Apple doesn't buy their parts from the same usual suspects in
| China and Korea when it comes to screens and other things you
| need to build a laptop.
| dmix wrote:
| > Why can't Linux users get screens that good?
|
| The only thing stopping me from switching from MBP.
|
| Framework is a giant step forward though. Pretty much
| everything I could want otherwise.
| tomrod wrote:
| I like the 13" but totally agree.
| jadbox wrote:
| 17" 4k please! (yes, I can do coding with that resolution at
| 120% scaling)
| cowpig wrote:
| Right now I'm using a 17" Dell Precision which is a brick of
| a laptop that weighs over 3.5kg and whose battery life can be
| measured in minutes as my primary work machine.
|
| I would buy a 17" framework to replace it in a heartbeat
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| Yeah, my 13" laptop just died on me, and it was just too
| uncomfortable for me to risk buying another 13" laptop.
|
| The Ethernet port is a big bonus for me too. Oh wells.
| maz- wrote:
| Really happy to see this, although I must've bought one of the
| last Gen 11 Frameworks at full price (literally 2 days ago ).
| ripvanwinkle wrote:
| just waiting for a 15inch version to come out. Any ideas when
| that might happen
| baka367 wrote:
| I am staying in a 2017 laptop waiting for framework to become
| available in the wider world. Really hope to hear about would
| wide availability as soon as possible
| jai_ wrote:
| Does anyone know if the Framework team plan to offer an ARM based
| mainboard?
|
| I'm honestly not even sure that there are any good ARM based SoCs
| to make a laptop mainboard from, but given what we've seen from
| Apple's development of their iPhone chips being integrated into
| laptop and desktop, I wonder if something similar could be done
| with other existing ARM CPUs from Samsung or Nvidia?
| wmf wrote:
| I doubt they'll offer ARM, but the RK3588 is designed for
| laptops and not embarrassingly slow (about 3x the performance
| of an RPi 4).
| CameronNemo wrote:
| The mt8192 is faster than the rk3588 and already shipping in
| Chromebooks. Plenty of activity on the linux-mediatek mailing
| list to mainline support for the currently shipping
| Chromebooks.
|
| mt8195 Chromebooks should appear soon too, and they are even
| faster than the mt8192. Mainlining activity is also occurring
| for this SoC.
| CameronNemo wrote:
| Do any ARM SoCs support USB4 (apart from Apple Silicon)? IIRC
| that is the main reason they cited for not shipping AMD boards.
| loufe wrote:
| I'm looking at getting a new portable device at the end of the
| year as my nearly 11 year old Y580 IdeaPad continues to fall
| apart. I feel like it's between Framework and an iPad pro. It's a
| little dumb but the amount of content I watch on the thing is
| high, and having an OLED screen is important to me, it changes
| the game visually.
|
| I would happily drop $2500 CAD on a framework if an OLED screen
| became available but I sincerely doubt it is something easy for
| them to source. That said, having a physicaly Canadian French
| keyboard is a huge plus, thanks Frame.Work. Oh well, choices to
| be made.
| filmgirlcw wrote:
| This is exciting! I'm very seriously looking at upgrading my
| mainboard and repurposing the 11th Gen I've got now into a DIY
| project!
|
| I've been VERY happy with my Framework and am glad to see this
| update.
| conradev wrote:
| It is awesome that Framework is so extensible - I would love to
| see either an integrated 5G modem, or a 5G expansion card. The
| latter is tricky because of antennas...
| [deleted]
| jameshart wrote:
| Ohhhhh _that 's_ why there was a spate of projects posted last
| week about building computers based on framework mainboards -
| submarine marketing for this framework upgrade launch. Figured it
| was framework behind it somehow, but the fact that it's to
| promote the 'here are some ways to use your old mainboard once
| you upgrade' angle makes a ton of sense.
| natosaichek wrote:
| Yeah - whenever somebody makes a good thing and people use it
| in cool ways, that's submarine marketing for that thing.
| jameshart wrote:
| Sure, it's entirely a coincidence that both
| https://github.com/brickbots/framedeck/ and
| https://github.com/penk/MainboardTerminal published 10 days
| ago, and they're both referenced in this framework
| announcement. Convenient for Framework that those two
| projects came out right before their upgrade launch!
|
| But I don't just have my own innate cynicism to go on here!
| The framedeck project write-up actually contains this
| disclosure: As they were preparing this
| documentation release, they emailed me to see if I'd be
| interested in a collaboration of sorts. They would provide
| one of their laptops and some additional modules for me to
| build something unique with the only condition being that I
| released the designs for public use.
|
| Which is _fine_! This is earned media - Framework got some
| people to make and open source some cool designs. I wasn 't
| sure, last week, why they were doing that _now_ in
| particular. Now I know why they 're pushing that angle, and
| it makes sense.
|
| Goodness, people are touchy.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Maybe it's because they only recently released the
| motherboard as an individually purchasable component?
| jameshart wrote:
| And maybe _that 's_ because they're bringing the new
| version to market so they're expecting to have some
| excess stock of the original motherboard that they need
| to sell down.
| nrp wrote:
| It's somewhat less nefarious than that. Before we announced the
| availability of a new Mainboard that existing Framework Laptop
| users can upgrade to, we wanted to make sure that there were
| interesting ways for people to re-use their old ones. When we
| sent out hardware to some creators, we told them we would
| appreciate it if they posted their projects by X date, leading
| to them clustering just before that date.
| jameshart wrote:
| Didn't mean to come across as accusatory - on the contrary,
| it's smart marketing and totally in keeping with the brand
| values.
| Decabytes wrote:
| I hope that if Framework continues to be successful they can
| start dictating more changes to the manufacturers of the
| components to make the components easier to integrate into the
| laptop design. For example, a standard size for Mobos so that
| makes it easier to integrate AMD/Intel processors
| nrp wrote:
| I'm happy to answer any questions around this! We've been working
| on this since update since we launched the product last year, so
| we're excited to be able to share it today.
| akavel wrote:
| Piling on the wishlist: any chances of a fanless mainboard in
| the future? I'm a sucker for fanless, hard for me to imagine
| going back...
| Kerrick wrote:
| Will all software shipped with the hardware when ordered with
| GNU/Linux be Free or will there be non-Free software such as
| the BIOS/UEFI?
|
| EDIT: I just realized that you cannot order this laptop with
| GNU/Linux pre installed. I was mistaken.
| nrp wrote:
| We've seen distro preference be too broad to make pre-loading
| efficient. Instead, we ship DIY Edition with no OS and
| publish guides for how to install and optimize the most
| popular distros. Our embedded controller firmware is open
| (see
| https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/EmbeddedController), and
| we're working with some community members on attempting a
| coreboot port.
| aaaaaaaaata wrote:
| > we're working with some community members on attempting a
| coreboot port.
|
| Commendable. Very cool.
| Kerrick wrote:
| Oh wow, that is actually really exciting!
| the_gipsy wrote:
| Any chance of ortholinear (grid) keyboards happening?
| nrp wrote:
| We've gotten requests from a couple of ortholinear keyboard
| makers on it. With our current Input Cover design, it is
| technically possible to do, but would have fixed costs that
| would be extremely difficult to amortize over the number of
| units we could realistically sell. Because of that, we don't
| have any active plans for this.
| CarVac wrote:
| Is there any way a hobbyist can make a custom one that
| would fit?
| benhurmarcel wrote:
| The problem is mainly getting switches (and their
| keycaps) that are thin enough. All the switches that are
| available to be used by hobbyists (Cherry MX, Kailh
| Choc...) are way too thick.
| rgoulter wrote:
| I'd hope for a thicker laptop frame, then.
|
| I think a frame thick enough for PCB + Chocs would then
| allow both a premium mechanical keyboard in a standard
| shape, as well as allowing for swapping this out for
| whatever more niche arrangements.
|
| Whereas, for a thin, non-mechanical keyboard, the
| manufacturing cost would be too high to be feasible for
| anything but standard, presumably.
| lawn wrote:
| I would be very interested in having a programmable ergo
| keyboard like the Ferris:
| https://github.com/pierrechevalier83/ferris
| nrp wrote:
| You can certainly try! Realistically it would probably
| need to be CNCed from aluminum, as plastic that thin
| wouldn't be sufficiently rigid.
| CarVac wrote:
| How thin is the keyboard assembly?
|
| Would Kailh choc switches fit?
| infogulch wrote:
| Are the external dimensions and body interface points of
| the keyboard assembly published anywhere?
| asoneth wrote:
| Would it be reasonable to test the waters with a survey or
| some form of group buy campaign? For example, if at least
| ~5k people preorder an ortholinear input cover for ~$200
| you will produce one. (Or whatever numbers are required for
| you to break even.)
|
| And of course if the campaign fails then you can at least
| say you tried.
| waiseristy wrote:
| What style of touchpad does the device have? Is it a force
| sensor style (macbook), hinged (most recent thinkpads), or one-
| big-button (also some thinkpads had this)?
|
| I absolutely despise the hinged touchpad on my thinkpad as you
| can't click unless you're pushing on the bottom half of the
| touchpad. A force sensor touchpad alone would make me put in an
| order for a framework laptop
| pkulak wrote:
| Any word on a resolution bump? We only need a few more lines
| for 2x support!
| mentos wrote:
| Congrats!
|
| Looking at the DIY Guide [0] it looks like a lot of the laptop
| comes pre-assembled still (case, motherboard, screen,
| keyboard).
|
| Is it more cost effective to do the labor on Framework's side
| to ship everything more tightly together in 1 box or could we
| see a 'DIY Pro' option that ships every component in its own
| box? (Maybe even at greater discount?)
|
| Also, check out this Mechanical Watch [1] tutorial that made it
| to the front page of HN last week. I could definitely see an
| exploded assembly view like this being really instructional for
| Framework DIY-ers.
|
| [0]
| https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Framework+Laptop+DIY+Edition...
| [1] https://ciechanow.ski/mechanical-watch/
| nrp wrote:
| We wrote about this in an early blog post:
| https://frame.work/blog/the-evolution-of-the-framework-
| lapto...
|
| It would be substantially more expensive for us to ship the
| laptop in a state that is less assembled. Packaging, labor
| for pack-out, and increased size and weight for freight all
| end up being quite a bit more than product assembly labor.
| guerby wrote:
| Hi nrp
|
| I demo-ed my frame.work laptop yesterday to
| https://www.matinfo-esr.fr/ which is a single buyer entity for
| all french universities and public research institutes (once
| hardware is in their catalog it's click to order for
| universities without administrative hassle).
|
| They showed interest on the non obsolescence, durability and
| repairability aspect of frame.work since these features are
| part of their public service mission.
|
| Feel free to contact me, my email is on the website listed on
| my HN profile
| isolli wrote:
| Edited to add: nrp, I know this person and I vouch for them
| :) I'm confident that they could help you enter a sizable new
| market here in France.
|
| Laurent, content de te revoir ! Et content de voir que tu te
| bats toujours pour les bonnes causes... Signe : un ex-
| collegue a la BNP ;)
| deng wrote:
| Does the laptop support proper S3 sleep, or is this impossible
| with modern Intel CPUs?
| pedro2 wrote:
| I was under the impression it was largely a BIOS option.
|
| Basically if S0idle is advertised as supported, S3 isn't.
|
| On recent BIOS on Thinkpads this tends to be an option which
| can be toggled.
| csdvrx wrote:
| > On recent BIOS on Thinkpads this tends to be an option
| which can be toggled.
|
| Just because the BIOS says so doesn't mean it will work.
|
| On some old Dells, the S0 implementation in the BIOS was
| just so broken it straight couldn't work, even in Windows.
| What saved the game was Microsoft carefully considering
| such scenarios and checking the battery budget: if S0 was
| draining the battery too fast for the computer to awake in
| a usable state (like, with enough power to at least
| boot...) it would give up on S0 and go S4 "hibernate"
| instead.
|
| In Linux this is now called Hybrid Sleep (S0+S4) but I
| don't think it existed back when I was in university.
| Finding a working ACPI S3 was hard.
|
| On thinkpads, as explained above, a working S3 is just
| sheer luck as Intel 11th gen shouldn't even support S3. On
| the 12th gen, it sure doesn't. I would be curious to know
| if S3 works with Linux on a X1 nano Gen2 (12th gen)
| nrp wrote:
| S3 was technically not supported in 11th Gen Intel Core, but
| seemed to mostly work anyway. S3 is also not technically
| supported in 12th Gen Intel Core, and it seems to mostly not
| work at the moment, and it is unclear if that will change.
| However, s0ix continues to improve substantially in recent
| kernels, to the point where there doesn't seem to be a major
| standby battery life advantage to s3 anymore (on 11th Gen).
| mjard wrote:
| Would love to see a blog post on how your team
| diagnoses/profiles power issues.
| ongy wrote:
| Less of a question, more a note:
|
| In the configure page to pre-order for the 12th-Gen variant,
| there's a link to the 12th-Gen variant. Feels a bit weird and
| confusing to be pointed towards the shiny new variant, while
| shopping for the shiny new variant.
| nrp wrote:
| Thanks, we are fixing this now.
| Jhsto wrote:
| Any plans to ship models with coreboot one day?
| vaylian wrote:
| Potentially: https://community.frame.work/t/free-the-ec-and-
| coreboot-only...
| sargun wrote:
| How are you using CNC to make parts en masse in a cost
| effective way?
| sireat wrote:
| Please, more country availability!
|
| I've been waiting for 12th gen Alder Lake availability and am
| ready to pay. However as a EU citizen from one of the Baltic
| states I am unable to do so.
|
| Please, tell us that this year any EU citizen will be able to
| order a Framework laptop.
|
| I could not even find which friends in which countries to ask
| to order Framework for me.. It used to be US then UK, and I
| know there are a few other ones.
|
| Combined with a waitlist the logistics are painful.
|
| At least I hope that signing up for the waitlist from a
| specific country counts as something.
| tomerv wrote:
| When will you open the option to order to Israel?
| We haven't opened ordering in your region yet, but we're
| looking forward to getting there! We can notify you when
| ordering opens:
| zucker42 wrote:
| Why is the SN750/SN850 the default SSD, given it has relatively
| high power consumption[1] and separately is there any reason to
| believe that building a DIY version with a different SSD
| wouldn't work?
|
| [1] https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/wd-black-
| sn850-m-2-nvme...
| nrp wrote:
| We see folks in the community using a range of different
| SSDs, but SN750/SN770/SN850 are what we have done the most
| validation on. We see good perf/watt on the WDC drives. It's
| unclear why Tom's Hardware was seeing poor idle power with
| power saving modes on.
| zucker42 wrote:
| Thanks for the response.
| anonporridge wrote:
| It looks like you currently can't order without Windows
| bundled. Will there be an option to order the kit without
| Windows for a reduced price?
| garettmd wrote:
| There's an option to order without any OS installed
| anonporridge wrote:
| Hmm. It seems like the homepage link to the DIY order was
| incorrectly directing to the prebuilt option. But it's
| fixed now.
| spiffytech wrote:
| Any plans to offer larger displays?
| rocqua wrote:
| I see there are only DDR4 options. Presumably if you bring your
| own memory, that also has to be DDR4.
|
| Why no DDR5?
| nrp wrote:
| When we started developing this product last year, we looked
| at price trends and performance data on DDR4 vs DDR5 and made
| the bet that DDR5 would have both price and availability
| issues in 2022. That has turned out to be the case, with DDR5
| SO-DIMMs typically going for 50-70% over the equivalent DDR4
| capacity, without delivering performance improvements to
| justify that premium. This is something that will improve in
| the future, and we'll continue to track this for future
| products.
| dhc02 wrote:
| When I read this, I got really excited about a company
| having a well thought out, rational reason for a decision.
| And then I realized how sad that is.
| legalcorrection wrote:
| What makes you think that people at Dell or HP don't sit
| around and think about those tradeoffs?
| syzygyhack wrote:
| Well, there are, but the things considered acceptable
| tradeoffs (like price/performance) are pretty different.
| aenis wrote:
| They sell to different audiences though, so maybe
| optimize for different outcomes. I'd imagine DDR5 is much
| easier to sell to a "pro-sumer" who games on Windows vs.
| to a programmer who runs linux and can make an educated
| decision re: price/perf tradeoff.
| [deleted]
| boppo1 wrote:
| Any chance you'll eventually have a Framework with a 'clickier'
| keyboard and a trackpoint like the x220? I will happily buy
| your product the next time my x220 dies (instead of upgrading
| it) if it has the nice clicky keyboard and a trackpoint. A
| slightly thicker laptop is very much a fair trade-off.
| jefurii wrote:
| I'd totally buy a Framework mainboard if I could squeeze it
| into my old x220 case.
| duairc wrote:
| Check out XY Tech who build and distribute modified
| ThinkPads. Xue Yao, the person behind it, intends to build
| a motherboard that will fit into an X220 case soon,
| possibly this year.
|
| I bought an "X2100" (a ThinkPad X200 with a 10th-gen Intel
| CPU) from him in 2020 and it's been fantastic.
|
| https://xyte.ch
| boppo1 wrote:
| Oh yeah this would be an option too.
| philliphaydon wrote:
| You have a bunch of job opening's in Taiwan but you currently
| don't ship to Taiwan? :(
| BlackLotus89 wrote:
| Is there a plan to offer other payment methods and/or multiple
| laptop orders. We want to use frame.work laptops for work and
| those limitations make it really hard for us to get it through
| logistics/purchase. The upgraded version would be an ideal
| reason for me to rerequest this as my new main machine.
| IceyEC wrote:
| Looks like they support bulk ordering:
| https://frame.work/support?category=business-volume-
| ordering...
| nrp wrote:
| Yep, we currently support orders of up to 5 laptops per order
| for the original 11th Gen Intel Core-based Framework Laptop.
| For larger quantities for businesses, we also have additional
| business-focused payment methods via Balance (including
| things like NET terms). We're building ingestion flows for
| that, but in the meantime you can submit a request through
| our support form:
| https://frame.work/support?category=business-volume-
| ordering...
| etbusch wrote:
| Do you have any preliminary specs on how battery life differs
| between these and the 11th gen equivalents?
| nrp wrote:
| In use battery life is largely the same, though Intel has
| added some additional features with 12th Gen Intel Core that
| can improve in-use power consumption in some scenarios. The
| main optimizations we were able to land were in standby power
| consumption. For Windows users, this means longer Modern
| Standby before going into Hibernate. For Linux, more
| importantly since hibernate is atypical, it means being able
| to leave your laptop unplugged for much longer when not in
| use.
| travisby wrote:
| The standby performance was what kept me from buying a
| previous gen frame.work despite loving the mission and
| wanting to support y'all. I was holding my time until
| either the efficiency cores came along (if that has any
| improvement in standby? I'm not even sure) or if you ended
| up making AMD where I believe S3 sleep states still exist.
|
| Very exciting to hear there's an improvement in this
| generation. Is that improvement due to intel changes, or
| due to frame.work changes? Can you quantify the standby
| improvement for linux in watts or battery % / 24h?
|
| Does battery life significantly change between processor
| models?
|
| Congrats on the refresh launch!
| nrp wrote:
| This is a combination of hardware and firmware
| improvements by both Intel on 12th Gen Intel Core
| generally and us on the Framework Laptop specifically.
| This is with s0ix standby, and we see ~0.4%/hour
| typically in Fedora 36 on 5.17.6 with the settings in our
| setup guide: .https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Fedora+36+I
| nstallation+on+th...
| elromulous wrote:
| Thanks! How about ubuntu/debian?
| csdvrx wrote:
| > This is a combination of hardware and firmware
| improvements by both Intel on 12th Gen Intel Core
| generally and us on the Framework Laptop specifically.
| This is with s0ix standby, and we see ~0.4%/hour
| typically in Fedora 36 on 5.17.6 with the settings in our
| setup guide
|
| For reference, on a Intel 11th Gen Lakefield (Lenovo X1
| Fold), using a Vanilla Windows 11 Pro with the non-Lenovo
| Intel GPU driver downloaded from Intel Driver & Support
| Assistant, given the results of powercfg /sleepstudy I
| get a 6% of drain for 9h54 min (so about 10h) therefore
| 0.6%/hour in "disconnected" (no wifi activity) S0ix
| standby.
|
| Before, with the official Lenovo driver, it was 0.5%/h
| (4h: 2% drain). I was hoping to get better results, but
| this isn't so bad with about 0 optimization!
|
| S0ix has gone a long way, in both Linux and Windows.
| etbusch wrote:
| Better standby performance is great news, as I know it's
| not all Framework's fault for the inconsistent standby
| power drain on the current models.
| gavinpc wrote:
| I just ordered a Framework yesterday. I'm not interested in the
| 12th gen chip, but is there any other reason I might want to
| cancel & re-order today? i.e. would I be getting an older
| design?
|
| edit: Someone also brings this up on the OP:
| https://community.frame.work/t/introducing-the-new-and-upgra...
| freedomben wrote:
| Not GP but if it were me and you don't care about the 12th
| gen chip, I definitely wouldn't cancel and re-order. I would
| guess the battery improvement won't be dramatic, but you'll
| end up with a little more cost and a longer wait time. The
| only thing might be the new cover. The old one is pretty
| flimsy and doesn't tolerate heavy abuse well. Mine is always
| in my house or a backpack so it's not been a problem for me,
| but if I carried it around publicly where it can be dropped
| and such, I might be concerned about it.
| gavinpc wrote:
| Good info, thanks! For better or worse, it had already
| shipped.
| stingraycharles wrote:
| I was waiting for the availability of the US international
| keyboard for DIY builds, but I got an even better present
| today. I have just made my preorder, surprised to see that a
| 1280P CPU with 64GB RAM is very reasonably priced!
|
| I was in the market for a MacBook Pro / max upgrades as well,
| mind you, so effectively I also saved a lot of money (I believe
| at least a $1k price difference).
|
| I use Linux as my daily driver, super happy to see the better
| support here as well.
|
| All in all, thank you for making a refreshing change in this
| market.
| user_7832 wrote:
| Not too different from the AMD comment, is there any plan or
| roadmap for future generations of (yet-unreleased) Intel chips?
|
| Also congrats on the update, I honestly wasn't expecting it.
| I'm seriously considering a framework laptop/motherboard for my
| next PC.
| schmorptron wrote:
| Wow, that's quite a price jump from the i5 to the i7 and then
| subsequently to the 6 core one. Could you talk a bit about the
| economics of having hotter / higher end chips in a notebook and
| whether there are other non-obvious cost increases to them? Are
| the higher end models "subsidizing" the lower end one, or is
| there motherboard / chipset upgrades that need to happen as a
| result?
|
| Really like the laptop though, and it's a close contender when
| it's my time to upgrade... :)
| hajile wrote:
| You're paying quite a bit for vPro.
|
| I'd guess that the 2 extra cores don't really make much of a
| difference day-to-day. If you crank up all the cores, both
| chips will throttle in a laptop of that size. If you are only
| running a couple single-threaded applications, the extra
| 100MHz turbo hardly makes a difference (around 2-3%).
|
| On the flip side, the places that need/want vPro are going to
| be very enterprisey and don't mind spending the extra money.
| verall wrote:
| Any chance for an add-in card with an Intel NIC? I have had
| issues with the realtek USB-C NICs and I was hoping the 2.5GbE
| would be intel.
| djbusby wrote:
| Something is really wacky with v-scrolling on your pre-order
| page (Pixel3/Chrome) I wasn't able to complete the process.
| mavili wrote:
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| you're mentioning euros and GBP as well though; could
| currency conversion and import taxes explain the difference?
| sbelskie wrote:
| It looks to me like the links for DIY and prebuilt are
| reversed.
| [deleted]
| selykg wrote:
| I love that we jump directly to "deception" rather than "this
| could be a mistake"
|
| A better approach would've been:
|
| "Your website shows "Starting at 959 for the DIY option, but
| when I click on it the base option starts at 1,049. Am I
| missing something or is this a bug, an explanation would be
| welcome."
| nrp wrote:
| As the sibling comment noted, the DIY button was pointing to
| the pre-built configurations and vice versa. We're fixing
| this now.
|
| Edit: This is fixed now.
| yasing wrote:
| what are the specs on the expansion cards? looks like usb-c..
| why not let order with 0 expansion cards and use a dongle of my
| choosing?
| MMS21 wrote:
| I think can you do that with the DIY edition.
| nrp wrote:
| You can, but we don't recommend it. Many/most USB-C cables
| are too thick to properly plug directly into the internal
| USB-C receptacles, which would make it hard to plug in and
| put stress on it.
| yasing wrote:
| missed that option. thanks!
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| You can with the diy version, but don't do that.
|
| Even if you only want 4 usbc ports, get 4 usbc modules and
| don't be a baby about the 4x$9 for passthrough cards that
| don't even have electronics.
|
| The usbc port inside the module bay is directly soldered to
| the motherboard. The module and bay serve as an important
| prophylactic to protect the usbc port from damage.
|
| I would only use the real port inside as a backup when some
| module breaks or is lost or something.
|
| It IS useful, and IS an explicit selling point (to me anyway)
| that you have the _option_ to do something like plug a power
| supply or hub or dongle directly in there instead of it being
| a proprietary connector, but that doesn 't mean do it
| regularly, especially not if the machine is being used in a
| portable manner where you're always plugging and unplugging.
| lighttower wrote:
| Will it be possible to get a keyboard like the Thinkpad. FULL
| SIZE arrow keys. Menu button next to Right ALT. And PGUP PGDN
| adjacent to the arrows ?
|
| Trackpoint is a bonus
| Liskni_si wrote:
| > Menu button next to Right ALT. And PGUP PGDN adjacent to
| the arrows
|
| Keys can easily be remapped in software, so all you really is
| the physical keys layout (full size arrows + two keys on
| either side of the up arrow) and the trackpoint. Menu or
| PrintScreen or whatever doesn't really matter much.
| PetitPrince wrote:
| Any chance to have a trackpoint-style pointing device in the
| future?
| komadori wrote:
| Just to pile on, I would love to buy a Framework laptop
| instead of more ThinkPads, but I really can't do without a
| pointing stick keyboard. I even have a Tex Shinobi* for my
| desktop! I hope that Framework or a 3rd-party accessory can
| fill this gap in the market.
|
| * https://tex.com.tw/products/shinobi
| dorfsmay wrote:
| To pile on even more... A lot of Linux users used to buy
| ThinkPad because of the Linux compatibility, the modularity
| and the build quality, but got addicted to the trackpoint,
| and this has become the only reason we keep buying them.
|
| A competitor would be very welcomed!whoever is going to
| take that market will have followers for a long time.
| jenaimarre wrote:
| Piling up to the pile, the lack of trackpoint is what
| prevents me to buy a framework laptop. Please :-)
| pimterry wrote:
| What are the constraints that are blocking wider EU
| availability?
|
| Right now, in Europe it's only available in a handful of
| countries (5 of 27). I'm in Spain, and I see I can spec a
| perfect machine and get it delivered just over the border in
| France, but I can't get the same thing delivered here just a
| couple of hours away, which is very surprising! My
| understanding was the single market & customs union etc should
| make going from 1 to N EU countries pretty easy.
|
| Is this due to smoe regulatory issues, or needing to organize
| shipping differently for every country, or waiting to include
| an n key, or something else?
|
| Right now, I'm very seriously looking at ordering one, renting
| a PO box in France and shipping the laptop here myself, which
| seems a bit ridiculous.
| sschueller wrote:
| Will Switzerland ever be able to order them with a Swiss
| German Keyboard?
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| > My understanding was the single market & customs union etc
| should make going from 1 to N EU countries pretty easy.
|
| Sadly, every country insist on doing everything else his own
| special snowflake way. There would have to be a lot more
| harmonization for it to be that easy.
| dathinab wrote:
| The problem is (my guess) Logistics is hard.
|
| Amazon might make it look easy but it really isn't (and
| Amazon is not available in all EU countries either!).
|
| Logistics is more then just shipping, but also returns,
| repairs, availability, shipping time, shipping costs, where
| and how to keep stock. And this points affect each other,
| i.e. they might not have enough supply to sell to the whole
| EU market etc.
|
| Lastly while there is a free marked in the EU if I remember
| correctly there are still some differences when importing
| things from outside into the EU depending on the country of
| entry. Like how to fill forms and which companies you can
| work with (for what prices) in given country.
| mhitza wrote:
| What do you mean by "Amazon is not available in all EU
| countries". Do you mean like a country specific TLD?
| Because that is true, but order and delivery is not a
| problem from any EU country as far as I know.
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| A couple years ago it wasn't available in Portugal, don't
| know if it's changed.
| larelogio wrote:
| amazon.es is the portal for Portugal, there is not a .pt
| avar wrote:
| In my experience a significant part of Amazon's inventory
| isn't something they'll send outside of the "domain
| country", e.g. trying to send from .de or .uk (this was
| before Brexit) to .nl.
|
| It just comes down to suppliers, who aren't serving
| customers outside of select markets for whatever reason.
| oblio wrote:
| If it's not localized, it might as well not exist for 95%
| of customers in a country.
| loginatnine wrote:
| I'll copy paste a comment I made here
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31096793 but I'm also
| guessing logistics.
|
| They gave a IMO good overview of the difficulties of selling
| to a new country in a previous post :
|
| > With our supply improving, you may be wondering when you
| can order a laptop if you're outside of the US and Canada. We
| selected and are bringing up our worldwide warehousing and
| fulfillment partner, which is one very key part of the
| equation, but it takes quite a lot more than that to enable a
| complete experience in each country. Picking Germany as one
| example, we need German language keyboards, a Type F power
| cable, in-box paperwork and labeling in German, localization
| for the Framework website, support documentation, and
| checkout flow, support for local payment methods, calculation
| of Euro prices and taxes, accounting support for German
| income, creation of legally sound Terms of Sale, Privacy, and
| Warranty policies for Germany, CE certifications, a local
| Authorized Representative to back up the certifications,
| determination of HS codes and tariffs, an Importer of Record
| to be able to deliver duty paid, German-language in-time-zone
| customer support, reverse logistics and RMA support for
| returns and repairs, region-specific sourcing of off the
| shelf memory and storage, trial builds of German laptops
| prior to production, and back-end ERP infrastructure to tie
| all of this together. That sounds like a lot, but it's
| actually a drastically simplified summary.
|
| https://frame.work/ca/en/blog/scaling-up-infrastructure
| reaperducer wrote:
| A lot of that sounds like legal and paperwork problems.
|
| I thought the whole point of the E.U. was to break down
| those cross-border paint points. Or is it still a work in
| progress? Can an E.U. person say if this is going to
| change?
| oblio wrote:
| It's very much a work in progress, especially since
| overall progress is happening at the same time.
|
| 27 countries need to coordinate to first agree to grant
| the EU the power to take over some aspects and then those
| same 27 countries need to actually do the work, together
| with the EU, to standardize that aspect. Then the
| standard needs to be adopted and enforced.
|
| The EU has less power than a confederation, which is a
| very weak supra-statal organization. So everything is
| very, very slow.
|
| The EU is gradually able to do more and more, but the
| time frames are decades long.
| TillE wrote:
| The EU means it would be entirely legal and tariff-free
| for a company in France to ship a product to Spain as-is,
| with minimal caveats. But that won't be a desirable
| product for most Spanish customers.
|
| The vast majority of that list has nothing to do with
| laws, but with physical requirements (keyboard and power
| plug), payments (not standardized beyond bank transfers),
| localization, and logistics.
| riquito wrote:
| I'd expect a cable C5 to Shucko to work everywhere in
| Europe (at worst you change the cable for preference to
| avoid an adapter)
| [deleted]
| nicoburns wrote:
| It does help (for example the mentioned CE certification
| is EU-wide). But it definitely could be better. I'd
| suggest it's not likely to change significantly any time
| soon.
| codethief wrote:
| I'd say they need none of that. Not only is barely anything
| of that a legal requirement in the EU, it's also a waste of
| money and resources to set this up in every country when
| you're mainly addressing pro users and tinkerers.
|
| I bought & imported a Supernote e-ink tablet from China the
| other day. The manufacturer offers none of the things
| mentioned above, heck their support team barely speaks
| English (but god knows they're trying!). Still everyone on
| Reddit loves them because they 1) produce a killer product,
| 2) provide great support when needed (e.g. send you a
| replacement or fix bugs), and 3) respond to community
| requests and regularly roll out software updates with
| fantastic new features.
| aestetix wrote:
| Can existing customers "trade in" their old motherboards for
| the newer models, with credit applied to make it cheaper?
| nrp wrote:
| We don't do trade-ins, but we have released projects to
| enable re-use of old Mainboards:
| https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Mainboard
|
| We're seeing some interesting outputs of that:
| https://github.com/brickbots/framedeck/
| https://github.com/penk/MainboardTerminal
| slim wrote:
| aha!
| freedomben wrote:
| I know your roadmap is probably packed to the brim, but if
| you could help facilitate 3rd party sales that would be
| useful. My wife stepped on my framework 3 days (!!) after I
| finally got it back in the beginning, and you couldn't buy
| parts yet so I bought a whole new framework and
| cannibalized it for the screen. I've since repaired it but
| if there was a way to either trade or sell with other
| people in a similar boat, that would be amazing,
| particularly where not all parts are available for purchase
| at each given time.
| aaaaaaaaata wrote:
| List it on Swappa.
| adastra22 wrote:
| I know this is a hard ask, but consider the Apple or Lenovo
| model of long support contracts. Not only does this help a
| lot of buyers to get your product, but you can start
| refurbishing trade-ins to get parts to service support
| cases.
|
| In the Frame.work style you might be able to do it via a
| more DIY approach.
| carreau wrote:
| Thoughts of whether the marketplace could be used for
| "certified" refurbished older components ?
| redconfetti wrote:
| It would be nice if older Framework hardware could be
| donated to some form of charity.
| EastSmith wrote:
| Not a question for the announcement, but the location page is
| missing countries, for example Bulgaria. This prevents me from
| even telling you I want to order form here (Bulgaria).
|
| https://frame.work/locale/edit
| nrp wrote:
| Thanks, captured on our internal bug tracker.
| darau1 wrote:
| Hi! Same for Guyana (GUY)
| cf wrote:
| I love everything about what you have planned. Is there
| anything in the works for creating more keyboard options? While
| mechanical keyboards might be too impractical, even something
| with bigger arrow keys would be nice.
| dorfsmay wrote:
| The day there is a ThinkPad style keyboard (trackpoint, 3
| button) and a matte screen, I'll order one immediately, and
| assuming it lives up to the expectation, I'd order more after
| that quickly.
| nspattak wrote:
| I would really like to buy one BUT I find it a little bit too
| expensive, especially the price difference for better CPUs I
| find proportionate. (i would be slightly more tempted if it was
| for an amd 6000 cpu, they are much better in perf/power, I hope
| you will reconsider in the next generation when the iGPU will
| be RDNA based)
| yumraj wrote:
| Any chance of 15"-16" in near future?
| uoaei wrote:
| I wondered this too, but they will need a way to be able to
| plug the same Mainboard into a new chassis such that the
| Expansion Cards work correctly, or else design a new
| Mainboard with increased size (or I guess longer Expansion
| Cards, but that seems silly).
| pmontra wrote:
| Of course (?) they need to build a larger motherboard. I'd
| be really tempted to buy a 15" model especially with a
| touchpad with 3 hardware buttons (I'm not considering any
| laptop without them) and a keyboard without numberpad (very
| important but a little less than the hw buttons.)
| defaultwizard wrote:
| Is there any plans (that you can talk about) for a slightly
| larger model with maybe more ports?
|
| I want one of these so bad but if you end up doing a larger one
| shortly down the line i'm going to be really gutted.
|
| Edit: also any plans for a blank ISO keyboard to match the
| blank ANSI one?
| mssdvd wrote:
| What are the main reasons for not shipping to other EU / EEA
| countries?
| nrp wrote:
| Laptops are uniquely challenging in that each additional
| country has its own keyboard language, increasing the number
| of SKUs we need to manage and hold inventory for. This is
| beyond the normal challenges of entering new markets. We
| enumerated this in a blog post here:
| https://frame.work/blog/scaling-up-infrastructure
|
| We are continuing to build the infrastructure and keyboards
| to expand into more countries though!
| [deleted]
| skummetmaelk wrote:
| Please don't let weird localized keyboards block this. We
| don't care about that stuff. People buying framework
| laptops are able to change their keyboard layout in
| software and use it without having to look at the symbols
| present on the keyboard. Yes the physical layouts are also
| different, but that really doesn't matter. Just make it
| available and forget about these tiny issues that your
| target market of power users don't care about.
|
| I want to throw my money at you, but I can't because the
| laptop is not available for shipping to the country I live
| in.
| sondr3 wrote:
| There are probably many potential users who wouldn't care,
| I've lived in Norway my whole life but my keyboards have
| been exclusively with an English layout for more than ten
| years now. If the thing holding you back from expanding to,
| among others, Norway is the lack of a nb-NO keyboard,
| please reconsider :)
| [deleted]
| oblio wrote:
| Just make the US keyboard version available everywhere and
| worry about local keyboards later, when people ask for
| them.
|
| Your audience is probably 90% devs and sysadmins, who most
| definitely can at least handle en_us.
| 5e92cb50239222b wrote:
| Hmm... I don't see how that prevents you from shipping
| whatever is available. Many of us don't care about
| localized keyboards. I want a US layout. I dropped an email
| to your support almost a year ago with a request to add my
| country to the list, got "no problem, check back in a
| week", and the country still isn't there.
| vodkapump wrote:
| I know this gets asked a lot and isn't really about this new
| upgraded model but..
|
| Any news on plans for AMD models?
| coder543 wrote:
| Framework has said many times that they won't discuss future
| product plans. I doubt they want to experience the Osborne
| Effect.
| samtheprogram wrote:
| Osborne Effect:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect
| simonh wrote:
| Does anyone know if the Framework laptop use a mainboard form
| factor that is available with AMD chips?
|
| The modularity of some components can be assumed because they
| are industry standards, like wifi modules I suppose. Other
| components perhaps Framework have designed their own range of
| modules with a common form factor, but it must be very
| expensive to engineer a compatible mainboard in the same form
| factor with a different chipset, unless they are using an
| existing standardised design.
| Sebb767 wrote:
| I'm not totally sure, but I think their mainboard is of
| their own design. They would need to adapt, but they could
| do it. I also think the differences are not too large,
| since most mainboard manufacturers offer surprisingly
| similar mainboards for either brand.
| criddell wrote:
| Why AMD?
|
| Why is there so little interest in ARM-based Linux laptops?
| Does AMD (or Intel) have anything even close in performance /
| watt that one can get from an ARM-based system?
| nicoburns wrote:
| AMD and Intel both have processors that perform _much_
| better than anything ARM-based except Apple 's M1
| processors (which of course nobody else has access to).
| That might change once Qualcomm release the new design they
| are supposedly working on, but that's not available yet.
| criddell wrote:
| I was thinking recent CPUs in the Exynos line were
| supposed to be pretty good. I never realized Apple was
| _that_ far ahead...
| nicoburns wrote:
| I think Apple's chips aren't that far off being twice as
| fast as Exynos chips in single-core performance. Whereas
| the latest AMD and Intel chips are more or less on a par.
|
| https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-
| apple_a14_bionic-v...
| criddell wrote:
| The 990 is pretty old. I think the latest is the 2200.
|
| https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-
| apple_a14_bionic-v...
| mrtranscendence wrote:
| The A14 is a generation old at this point. This is a more
| relevant comparison:
|
| https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-
| apple_a15_bionic_5...
| Sebb767 wrote:
| ARM-based laptops are definitely more niche and if you
| don't have a large company like Apple forcing the adaption,
| you'll have a hard time to support proprietary software,
| including stuff like drivers. It would absolutely be cool
| to have an open ARM-based high-end laptop, but it's not
| drop-in like AMD.
| robotnikman wrote:
| Mainly the non-standardization of ARM hardware currently is
| my guess. For x86 a lot of it is standardized and well
| known.
|
| There was a good thread here the other day on the subject
| of ARM hardware and the difficulties of things such as
| device trees and odd boot processes
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31409273
| robotnikman wrote:
| I think the main issue with AMD might be they lack support
| for Thunderbolt (last I've heard anyways)
| capableweb wrote:
| > Any news on plans for AMD models?
|
| This is the only thing stopping me from getting a Framework
| laptop right now. I'd pay a premium for it as well.
| hericium wrote:
| Pre-Pluton chips, though.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Why is AMD so important to you? Are there any instruction
| set extensions these days that are only available on AMD? I
| can only think of things that are the other way around -
| only on Intel. And if you need something niche like some
| SIMD extension I guess you're running a server not a
| laptop?
| Markoff wrote:
| I'd guess much better VFM.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| > Why is AMD so important to you?
|
| Not the GP, but here's my reason:
|
| For dGPUs, I strongly prefer AMD over nVidia because of
| Linux driver support. In recent years, most laptops with
| an AMD dGPU have AMD CPUs.
|
| It's possible that my calculus will change in the next
| few years. E.g., if any of these things come to market:
|
| - good laptop with Intel CPU and AMD dGPU
|
| - AMD CPU with a _fast_ iGPU. (I know these are in the
| pipeline, but I 'm waiting for benchmarks.)
|
| - Intel's upcoming laptop iGPUs / dGPUs perform well
| _and_ have good Linux drivers.
|
| - nVidia's efforts to open-source parts of their Linux
| drivers address my personal pain points.
| xd1936 wrote:
| Sure, but none of these affect the Framework Laptop. This
| computer does not have discrete graphics.
| freeopinion wrote:
| Why is Intel 12th Gen more important?
|
| AMD is important for multiple reasons.
|
| First, it shows that they listened to feedback. From way
| over here in the corner it seems like AMD has been the
| most requested feature for the Framework.
|
| Second, many people perceive that AMD outperforms Intel.
|
| Third, many people think it is extremely important to
| reward positive competition in the market place.
|
| Eighth, it would truly, truly prove the upgradeability
| and versatility of the Framework. Then we could move on
| to imagining dual^H^H^H^Hquad-Arm boards and RISCV boards
| and other fantasies.
| dathinab wrote:
| > First, it shows that they listened to feedback. From
| way over here in the corner it seems like AMD has been
| the most requested feature for the Framework.
|
| I would argue one of the most glaring problems with
| selling Framework laptops was that they where "still" on
| Intel 11th Gen hardware which is often perceived as "not
| so grate" of a choice.
|
| I'm sure they would love to also ship AMD based mobos
| (and Arm too) but it needs to be profitable, i.e. the
| additional sales gained through also supporting AMD must
| outclass the higher logistic cost as well as higher
| development cost. This might not seem like a big deal but
| from the little experience I have with logistics and
| things like maintaining Intel and AMD BIOS support, still
| having pressure to also ship a faster Intel mother board
| etc. I highly duped this makes any sense at this point in
| time.
|
| Also, yes many people perceive AMD outperforms Intel, but
| many also perceive the opposite! Sure competition is
| grate, but Framework is not yet a well established
| company. Lastly I don't think they need to technically
| prove that upgrading to AMD or ARM is possible, the
| problem is not technology but logistics, resources (BIOS
| maintenance, testing, etc), supply-chains and potentially
| shitty contracts and practices by Intel (and other
| Companies).
|
| So IMHO they need to first establish themself well, and
| then branch out.
| capableweb wrote:
| It's simply a political/better CPU market perspective.
| Intel had the entire market for so long, and therefore
| stopped improving. They are getting some fire behind
| their behind-parts now, but that took a good while. I'm
| cheering and voting with my wallet for the underdog in
| the market to make the whole market more competitive. At
| least that's what I like to believe.
| Teknoman117 wrote:
| Voting with my wallet. Intel bent everyone over a barrel
| for a decade and I don't want to give them another dollar
| if I can avoid it.
| quantumfissure wrote:
| Better power handling per performance ratio, at least
| when compared to previous Intel generations.
|
| Better integrated graphics, especially with the upcoming
| line, if what AMD says holds true.
|
| Non-toxic approach to business.
|
| Dr. Lisa Su has done incredible things with that company,
| and I'll happily support a group that recognizes the need
| for experience in top tech positions vs.
| MBAs/Lawyers/Fund Managers/etc...
| peatmoss wrote:
| Integrated graphics is a big deal. I was talking to a
| friend just this morning who has been waiting to buy a
| Framework until there is a gaming capable option. Intel
| integrated graphics isn't viable, but AMD integrated
| graphics meet a casual gaming bar.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| > Non-toxic approach to business.
|
| Unfortunately it seems the pendulum swings on this one at
| least a bit. Unless you want a flagship CPU, you'll wait
| a good half year to a year to get half as much choice of
| budget CPUs with rather extreme handicap (cache).
|
| Also half of them are OEM only.
|
| Try to find a good current gen CPU for a small to mid
| sized NAS in their lineup, it's not easy.
| kouteiheika wrote:
| > Unless you want a flagship CPU
|
| Even if you want a flagship CPU; e.g. see the newest 5xxx
| series Threadrippers which were only released after a
| year and half and even then they are only available in
| overpriced e-waste systems from Lenovo where the CPU is
| locked down to the motherboard and won't work anywhere
| else.
|
| AMD is not your friend. Just like every other huge
| corporation.
| mrtranscendence wrote:
| It's relative. AMD is "your friend" as long as it's on
| the back foot, so to speak. Their GPU pricing remains
| much better than Nvidia's, even with the extreme
| availability issues over the past two years, and some of
| their actions on the GPU side are more consumer-friendly
| (such as offering open-source Linux drivers). But when in
| a more favorable position with respect to their
| competitor their behavior can and does change.
|
| > where the CPU is locked down to the motherboard
|
| Don't quote me on this, but I think I heard that this
| wasn't on by default?
| csdreamer7 wrote:
| Yep, the 6000 series has RDNA2 graphics.
| mhitza wrote:
| Because at the moment AMD is the least scummy of the two
| x86 chip manufacturers. Intel as the only feasible player
| in town for a good segment of time, asked premium prices
| for meager performance increases, generation by
| generation.
|
| Mainly is just out of principle and voting with my
| wallet.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| I was choosing AMD even when they didn't have the better
| processors on the market, for this very reason.
| Teknoman117 wrote:
| Exactly. If we're going to be told to vote with our
| wallets all the time, you better let me vote with my
| wallet.
|
| I bought an ASUS ZenBook earlier this year because as
| much as I like Framework's product, I don't want to give
| Intel another dollar after they bent me over a barrel for
| a decade.
| lhl wrote:
| For me personally, my preference primarily comes down to
| extreme differences in low-intensity/idle power usage of
| Ryzen 6000 vs Intel 12th gen. There aren't true "apples
| to apples" (same chassis/model, but AMD vs Intel)
| comparisons yet, although those should be coming in the
| next month or so, but here's an example of how efficient
| the Ryzen 6000s are: https://youtu.be/3bSetglEPOY?t=170
|
| For people that need to use their devices on the go, I
| think it's a no brainer to prefer a Ryzen 6000 vs Intel.
|
| The RDNA2-based Radeon 680M iGPU also significantly
| outperforms the (admittedly, much improved) Intel Xe
| iGPUs in 3D rendering. In synthetics, the new Radeon
| iGPUs are going head to head with Nvidia 1650 Max-Q
| dGPUs. This probably doesn't much matter if you aren't
| doing any gaming, but if you are, it means you can play
| most modern titles reasonably on the road in a thin and
| light form factor without giving up any battery life when
| you aren't.
| dont__panic wrote:
| I think it goes something like this:
|
| - no Management Engine
|
| - chips that don't turbo boost themselves into throttling
|
| - not supporting a company with a toxic approach to
| business
|
| I believe AMD outperforms Intel when you're targeting
| mobile performance/battery life, rather than "moar CPU"
| workloads. Though that might change now that Intel is
| using their own approach to performance cores. Still,
| given the last decade of Intel development, they don't
| exactly have my trust that they'll execute performance
| cores without serious hiccups.
| jeffbee wrote:
| > - chips that don't turbo boost themselves into
| throttling
|
| Your level of understanding about how CPUs control their
| frequency, voltage, and power is evidently "none". Why
| spread comments like this which only serve to confuse and
| mislead readers?
| fsflover wrote:
| > no Management Engine
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_PSP
| sascha_sl wrote:
| The PSP is a lot slimmer than Intel ME. It also doesn't
| randomly yank traffic for specific ports from your
| Ethernet.
| trinsic2 wrote:
| I havent looked at the presentation yet, but are you
| saying the PSP, like intels ME could be doing nefarious
| things since its proprietary and closed? Do you have a
| link to information on the network capturing thing? I
| mean is that really a thing?
|
| I have heard of these things before but I am not quite
| sure what the possibilities are. Do you have a link that
| can summarize what this actual means in terms of security
| concerns?
| sascha_sl wrote:
| CVE-2017-5689
| google234123 wrote:
| How do you know there isn't an undiscovered CVE for AMD?
| There's probably maybe 10x more security research focused
| on Intel
| fsflover wrote:
| Any good link with the details?
| sascha_sl wrote:
| There was a good talk with an overview (as well as owning
| it) at 36c3.
|
| https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-10942-uncover_understand_own_
| -_r...
| [deleted]
| helloworld653 wrote:
| How many external 1080p60 monitors can this drive with the laptop
| open? 4?
| nrp wrote:
| Yep, you can use up to four displays in total. That includes
| the internal display, so using four external monitors would
| mean turning off the internal one.
| tomrod wrote:
| I'm on an 11th gen and just ordered another one a week ago.
|
| Great daily driver!
| Sebb767 wrote:
| Same, I ordered just a few days ago! Pity, after waiting for so
| long, I should've just waited a few days longer and save 70EUR.
| Still, looking forward to finally having one :)
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| When will you support a 2K (ideally) (or 4K) OLED panel? I'm a
| software developer and I'm not going back to the blurry text era
| and the non-contrasting movie/games era. Also come on you need
| thunderbolt support, egpu is a key advantage in 2022. So I
| appreciate the concept but currently you are not enough for my
| needs.
| pocholo wrote:
| stakkur wrote:
| I like the concept of this laptop. I really want to like the
| laptop itself, enough to buy one.
|
| But for me, it always comes down to the experience of the user
| interface--the keyboard, trackpad, and screen. And that always
| brings me back to Macbooks and ThinkPads. I'm a Linux fan, but
| 'ability to run a specific OS' is not even in my top three must
| have features.
| justin66 wrote:
| > We've redesigned our lid assembly for significantly improved
| rigidity
|
| They should make this part available to existing users as a
| warranty replacement. It sounds like they've addressed a common
| complaint on their support forums.
|
| The lid that flops over because of the hinge's weakness, and the
| absurd excuses made by company personnel (they claim it was
| designed this way "to accommodate opening the laptop with one
| hand," as if the people who open a laptop with one hand do not
| need the lid to stay upright) has been a great disappointment for
| me with this laptop. It is a design defect, not a feature, for
| the hinge to be this weak.
|
| edit: apparently they're talking about this, so I guess we're
| stuck with the weak hinge:
|
| https://frame.work/products/top-cover-cnc
| nrp wrote:
| If the lid drops when the laptop is stationary, the hinge is
| out of spec and we'll send you a replacement through our
| support channel.
| justin66 wrote:
| I'll look into that. Thanks!
| ncallaway wrote:
| As feedback, I had the same problem that you had. I reached
| out to support, they had me send in a video, agreed that
| the hinge was out of spec and mailed me a new one.
|
| I installed the new hinge, and it's more rigid. I no longer
| have the problem of the laptop falling open when typing on
| my lap.
|
| Highly recommend contacting support for the hinge issue if
| you have it to.
| theferalrobot wrote:
| What if our replacement hinges are dropping when stationary
| too?
| coder543 wrote:
| My framework laptop had no issues with the hinge whatsoever. It
| honestly might have been a little too stiff for my tastes, but
| it functioned perfectly, and the screen never budged without me
| moving it intentionally. (Past tense is because I recently sold
| it as I was using my M1 MBA way more often, mainly due to how
| long the framework laptop took to come out of sleep mode by
| comparison. This isn't really a slight against Framework...
| Apple just did an unreasonably good job with M1 in some areas.)
|
| I would not say the hinge issues have been a "common"
| complaint. They've been the _most common_ complaint that I 've
| seen on Reddit, but still rare, especially once you factor in
| that people usually only go online to complain, and anyone with
| the hinge issue isn't going to hesitate, since it would be
| understandably annoying.
| BaseballPhysics wrote:
| I have to admit, after roughly 9 months of use, while
| initially I didn't have issues with the hinge, I've
| definitely noticed the display tends to flop around when I'm
| picking up and moving the laptop, or when riding the bus
| where the laptop is shifting around. For context, my previous
| laptop was a 5th gen X1 Carbon and I never had that issue
| with that machine.
|
| I also can't shake the feeling that the hinge has loosened up
| a bit, but that's purely anecdotal.
|
| My guess is this is both a combination of a slightly less
| stiff hinge combined with the taller 3:2 display, which leads
| to more torque being applied to the hinge when the laptop is
| moving around.
| justin66 wrote:
| > I also can't shake the feeling that the hinge has
| loosened up a bit, but that's purely anecdotal.
|
| I feel like the amount of resistance the lid has to
| flopping over actually _varies,_ which is strange.
| justin66 wrote:
| > I would not say the hinge issues have been a "common"
| complaint. They've been the most common that I've seen
|
| Thanks for sharing your insight, you've really clarified
| things. _Ahem._
|
| > especially once you factor in that people usually only go
| online to complain.
|
| I've never complained about it before on their forums because
| once a few people let the company know about the defect, and
| the company gives their lame excuse for why they've
| implemented such a weak hinge (one handed opening!), there is
| no point.
|
| It actually is nice to hear that your hinge wasn't weak as
| that might mean the warranty replacement nrp mentioned is
| worth doing. I do hope - the laptop has some nice features
| otherwise.
| foodstances wrote:
| They upgraded the hinges at some point during manufacturing to
| address the screen falling down during light movement:
|
| https://frame.work/products/display-hinge-kit?v=FRANFB0001
|
| I believe this upgraded lid assembly is to address the screen
| wobbling during typing. It's a very thin lid and has a lot of
| flex, so the tighter hinge just transfers the force into the
| lid, causing it to wobble. Hopefully this will be eliminated
| with this upgraded lid.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _We continue to focus on solid Linux support, and we're happy
| to share that Fedora 36 works fantastically well out of the box,
| with full hardware functionality including WiFi and fingerprint
| reader support. Ubuntu 22.04 also works great after applying a
| couple of workarounds, and we're working to eliminate that need._
|
| This disclaimer -from a company that picks their hw components
| none the less- is cold water to Linux in the desktop as any sort
| of "solved" problem
| anon_123g987 wrote:
| There's no such operating system as "Linux". I don't know what
| these "workarounds" are exactly, but if it's something like
| installing a driver for a fingerprint reader that's present in
| a standard Fedora distro, but not in a vanilla Ubuntu then I
| don't see the problem. Of course it won't work _out of the
| box_.
| nrp wrote:
| We're exploring if there is any other workaround, but it is
| likely that until a 22.04 point release goes out with a new
| kernel, it will require installing a newer kernel from
| Ubuntu's kernel PPA to make suspend work properly.
| DeathArrow wrote:
| I'm wondering what's the battery life and power usage under
| Linux. For many laptops this is a problem.
| jakamau wrote:
| I've had my framework laptop for about six months and I'm not
| really a linux adept (I basically just read online guides and
| bash on my keyboard until the problem fixes itself). But
| honestly, I genuinely enjoy using the framework laptop with
| Fedora.
|
| The battery life during light(7w)-moderate(12w) usage is
| approximately 5 hours.
|
| Stand-by was the real issue in my opinion (it would drain
| 1-2%/hour). I got around this issue by setting up a swap
| partition and forcing hibernation after 30 minutes of sleep
| standby.
|
| Apparently there are some new tweaks that were added to
| improve standby, but I am happy with where I am and don't
| want to change anything, so I can't speak to their efficacy.
| spaniard89277 wrote:
| Do you have tlp installed?
| jklinger410 wrote:
| Had this issue with System76, which offers NVIDIA cards that
| suck on Linux, and various hardware that requires firmware not
| in the linux kernel or anywhere else, where you have to install
| and update that firmware separately (like windows).
|
| All they make are Linux computers and they
| couldn't/didn't/wouldn't for some reason produce a laptop that
| just natively worked.
| Accacin wrote:
| Recently I built a new PC, and after having Nvidia driver
| issues for years on my old PC, I decided I'd go AMD instead.
|
| After at least 10 years using Linux, I'm back to Windows.
|
| The main issue I had was a very intermittent flicker on my
| screen when I'm on 144Hz. This happened on Wayland and X11.
| Almost every single distribution had this issue; OpenSUSE,
| Fedora, Arch (and derivatives), Debian, PopOS.
|
| The _only_ distribution where this wasn 't a problem was
| Ubuntu which worked great for a while, but I updated and had
| a few issues. Also, realised after briefly trying other
| distributions that Snaps were _really_ slow, so I just couldn
| 't stay with Ubuntu. I tried disabling Snaps, but then the
| store broke and the non-snap store kept crashing (I generally
| install software via terminal but it's nice to browse and see
| what's out there occasionally).
|
| Oddly, I've found Windows 11 mostly okay - at least I have no
| flicker at 144Hz.
| arghwhat wrote:
| Well to be fair, no desktop experience is solved if one isn't
| allowed to apply adjustments for their hardware (drivers, user
| space tools and whatnot).
|
| My experience on Linux certainly isn't flawless, but I have
| about as many issues whenever I'm handed a Windows laptop as
| others have trying Linux. Computers suck.
| jfb wrote:
| I mean, Apple makes the whole stack, more or less, and I have
| trouble there, too. So, honestly, yeah. Software is a
| goddamned disaster.
| throw93232 wrote:
| It is laptop, not desktop ;)
| MetaWhirledPeas wrote:
| Not if you buy the mainboard and mount it in a little desktop
| case!
| coldtea wrote:
| Desktop Linux was historically meant as opposed to server.
|
| Plus, most actual desk tops today feature laptops.
|
| So still a desktop use case: it's just not in "tower" or
| "mini-tower" or "all-in-one" form.
| smallerfish wrote:
| Linux on a desktop is really quite rock solid (caveat
| assuming you do research if you are too cutting edge on
| hardware). Linux in laptops are not as good on battery life
| and 4k external monitor support has issues (though less so
| if wayland works on your hardware). The two workarounds
| they mention for Ubuntu on their page are adding a kernel
| option to improve suspend battery life, and adding a line
| in the alsa conf to enable the driver that recognizes the
| microphone jack they're using...you can hardly extrapolate
| from those to "desktop linux is teh pits".
| noirbot wrote:
| To be fair to them, _desktop_ Linux is a fair bit easier than
| laptop Linux. Laptops have many of the components that have
| been the most neglected/hardest to work with - wifi cards,
| bluetooth, trackpads, fingerprint readers... All all the worse
| because there's often less or no choice of provider for the
| components.
|
| For the most part, on a full desktop, you can avoid most of the
| need for those, or buy a part that works better.
| nrp wrote:
| To be fair to Linux on the desktop, one of the major challenges
| is synchronization between new hardware platforms (12th Gen
| Intel Core), and distro cycles (22.04). We fully expect that
| the next point release of 22.04 will have a kernel that works
| well out of the box with 12th Gen. Fedora seems to more
| consistently be able to go out with more recent kernels. Fedora
| 36 with 5.17.6 works smoothly.
| orangeoxidation wrote:
| Are distros doing too much customization?
|
| The kernel is famously backward compatible, upgrading during
| a distro cycle shouldn't be a problem. Yet fedora doing so is
| somehow exceptional.
| nrp wrote:
| You can manually update to a newer kernel and generally
| have it work as end user. For a distro maintainer though,
| you have to pick a stable target to develop, validate, and
| release against. Fedora seems to typically be slightly more
| aggressive on their intercepts than other major distros.
| deepsun wrote:
| Used it for half a year. All works awesome, but I don't know how
| to update firmwares on my Linux Mint/Ubuntu. There are some
| guidelines on website, but they don't seem official, and say
| something like "you may need to fix your bootloader after" which
| sounds scary that I'll break my perfectly working system.
| Macha wrote:
| This isn't "run out and buy" level (that would be 15", AMD 5000
| or Intel 12th gen with a dgpu), but it's probably enough to be my
| next laptop unless something drastic changes in the market by
| then.
| nerdjon wrote:
| it is exciting to see an upgradeable laptop actually be
| upgradable.
|
| But I have to wonder what the market for this is? The primary use
| case I see for something like this is a gaming laptop, which this
| is just nowhere near being suitable for.
|
| Outside of that use case, for the vast majority of compute
| workloads is being able to upgrade really a need? I have 2
| laptops (well technically 3 but I don't count my work one
| really). A gaming laptop and my Mac as my primary computer
| outside of gaming. I tend to upgrade my Mac maybe... 4 or 5
| years. Maybe even more than that. My Mac I got in 2019 and feel
| no need to upgrade anything in it.
|
| My gaming laptop on the other hand... If I had the ability to
| upgrade that I would likely upgrade parts every year or 2... like
| a good a gaming desktop.
|
| What am I missing here outside of the excitement of an
| upgradeable laptop? I don't want to diminish the work on that, I
| am just unclear the use.
| victor9000 wrote:
| A few weeks ago I spilled an entire cup of sugary espresso on
| my framework laptop which completely ruined my keyboard by
| making it a sticky mess. You know what I did? I ordered a
| replacement keyboard kit for $99, installed it in ~5 minutes,
| and I haven't thought about it since.
|
| Some other part will fail in the future, or I'll spill another
| cup of coffee, and when that happens all I need to worry about
| is swapping out the affected parts. And that's great compared
| to my previous alternatives with an XPS, which was basically to
| buy a brand new laptop.
| torginus wrote:
| Can't you do the same thing with a Thinkpad?
| Eduard wrote:
| (Putting aside that Thinkpad is a specific brand, whereas
| keyboard replacability is generally device-specific)
|
| Framework keyboard replacement guide: https://guides.frame.
| work/Guide/Keyboard+Replacement+Guide/8...
|
| ThinkPad T470s keyboard replacement guide: https://support.
| lenovo.com/de/en/solutions/pd104683-removal-...
|
| That Thinkpad model's keyboard replacement steps look way
| easier than Framework's.
| angulardragon03 wrote:
| Looks like 12th gen DIY edition is EUR60 more than the MSRP of
| the old model. Wonder if the price will come down further for the
| old model.
|
| EDIT: site was down while I was checking this, the 11th Gen DIY
| edition is EUR829, so EUR130 cheaper than 12th gen.
| nrp wrote:
| We announced newly reduced pricing for the original 11th Gen
| Intel Core-based Framework Laptops. We've sold out of some SKUs
| and have limited numbers of the remaining ones, so that new
| reduced pricing is likely the final pricing until we run out of
| those.
| WrtCdEvrydy wrote:
| angulardragon03 wrote:
| Interesting! I was looking at picking one up with my next pay
| check, so I'll see what's available. Thanks!
| post_break wrote:
| Will board schematics be available for repairs? Something Louis
| has been asking for.
| nrp wrote:
| We recently released the subset of schematics that we were able
| to. Louis did a recent video on this:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cJj8PUY0DU
| post_break wrote:
| When you say able to, do you mean a vendor is holding you
| back from releasing more? No problem if you can't answer.
| Sorry my question was for this new laptop, I did see you guys
| released the one for the previous one which is awesome.
| varispeed wrote:
| It's likely that the schematics cannot be copyrighted,
| which means once they are released anyone can spin up their
| own boards.
|
| You could probably see a flood of cheap Chinese
| motherboards or entire laptop knock offs.
| post_break wrote:
| If that were the case we'd see macbook motherboards,
| since Louis is able to get entire board schematics.
| varispeed wrote:
| I don't think what Louis has are full schematics. You
| could probably reverse engineer board view into a
| schematic, but from what I saw in his videos there was a
| lot of missing information - but enough to conduct a
| repair. That being said - even if Apple has released a
| full schematic, without datasheets for the parts made
| specifically for Apple, you wouldn't get an idea of
| operation of certain bits, so it could be difficult to
| replace these with off the shelf components.
| post_break wrote:
| You are going in circles. I ask if they will have
| schematics for repairs, he says they do, you chime in
| saying "if they release schematics anyone can build a
| board", I tell you that Louis has even more detailed
| schematics for macbooks, and now you're saying those
| aren't schematics... can we just agree on something, I'm
| asking if they will have whatever you call the things so
| you can look up traces, components, voltages, to repair a
| board?
|
| All I'm asking is if they will be releasing
| schematics/board views/whatever they are called for this
| laptop.
| tofuahdude wrote:
| How do these intel chips standup against the current M1 lineup?
|
| I'd love to swap away from Apple to Framework but I gotta say,
| the current Pro M1 is pretty remarkable.
|
| Is intel in the same ballpark with the 12th gen?
| pmlnr wrote:
| Please, please, please make s keyboard option that has full size
| arrow keys, dedicated pgup, pgdown, del, ins, home, end. The
| current laptop keyboards, apart from thinkpads, are a joke for
| those who want to work on them, the framework, sadly, is
| included.
|
| I'd also love a trackpoint with 3 dedicated buttons but I'll keep
| dreaming.
| silencedogood3 wrote:
| If I wait six more months to buy will they have a really solid
| linux story?
| silencedogood3 wrote:
| Does anyone know if this would be difficult to connect to a
| second monitor?
| cosmiccatnap wrote:
| Sad to see still no 15/16 inch variant, amd edition, or choice of
| black shell.
|
| That being said I'm glad to see they are following through on the
| things they promise like upgradable cores. In theory I take it
| this means if you currently have a framework laptop you can just
| buy the compute core and upgrade.
| paskozdilar wrote:
| Do Frameworks laptop work without proprietary
| software/firmware/whateverware?
|
| If you can run a 100% free software GNU/Linux distribution such
| as Trisquel on Framework laptops, that would be a definite buy
| for me.
| qboltz wrote:
| They do, I run GNU Guix but you have to buy a wifi card that's
| free software compatible, which must be bought somewhere else.
|
| https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/wireless-n-dual-band-...
| cyanydeez wrote:
| When we gonna get AMD
| doyougnu wrote:
| I recently bought a framework laptop for a daily driver when I'm
| not on my desktop. For context I was running NixOS on an old 2014
| macbook air, and I work on the glasgow haskell compiler in my day
| job so I do a lot of CPU heavy tasks.
|
| I've got to say, as long as these things are being produced I'll
| never go back. They are just too good and I cannot recommend them
| highly enough. One of the things that didn't occur to me before I
| bought it was that _because_ of the modular design I can switch
| the side the power port is on. That may not seem like much but it
| was a revelation the first time I sat on the couch and thought
| "huh I really wish this was over on that side....wait a minute!".
|
| I've also had absolutely no problems with NixOS on my machine,
| even my apple earbuds easily connect via bluetooth, something
| that I never quite got working on my macbook.
|
| 10/10 This is damn close to my dream laptop and I'm excited a new
| version is on the way.
| rcoder wrote:
| > 10/10 This is damn close to my dream laptop and I'm excited a
| new version is on the way.
|
| Agreed, with the seemingly-trivial but actually real
| elaboration: I'm excited because there's a new version on the
| way and _I can decide, piece by piece, which parts of the
| upgrade I want._.
|
| Having the upgrade be a literal circuit board I can swap out is
| 100% the value prop for Framework and I am likewise a very
| happy customer to see it, even if I'm happy with the current
| performance of my laptop and don't need to upgrade.
| smoldesu wrote:
| I can't even imagine how good these'll be on Alder Lake...
| might have to grab that i5 model.
| gigatexal wrote:
| The new revision with the 12-gen chips does it fix the
| complaints people have had about loud fan noise?
|
| I am super on the fence between this and an arm mac - this is
| super customizable but the arm chips in the air are silent --
| no fan.
| popol12 wrote:
| If you're on Linux, this does the job
| https://community.frame.work/t/linux-fan-speed-controller-
| wi...
| dheera wrote:
| Same. Only things I wish were slightly better build quality and
| also I've had issues with Wi-Fi disappearing of late [0], fast
| battery drain during suspend, as well as battery refusing to
| charge from zero but there's a workaround involving a dumb USB
| charger. Kind of hoping these are just early adopter issues and
| that they'll be dealt with over time.
|
| I really hope some community hardware experts can design more
| modules for this thing. I want an IMU+GPS+Barometer module
| among other things, but I'm a software person and don't know
| how to design PCBs.
|
| [0] https://community.frame.work/t/wi-fi-disappeared-and-
| reappea...
| jerryzh wrote:
| To be fair when MacBook move to typec one can charge on both
| sides for many years, and I kind of look forward to a future
| when all port use typec But when it comes to inside Mac by no
| mean compares to framework
| morganvachon wrote:
| Except the M1 Air and 13 inch M1 Pro reverted to left side
| only (the new models with M1 Pro/Max chips have an extra
| USB-C on the opposite side). It's my only real gripe with the
| M1 laptops compared to older Intel Macs.
|
| Of course, the Framework is the polar opposite of the M1
| Macs' locked down "appliance" feel. I'm enjoying the progress
| being made with OpenBSD and Asahi Linux on the M1 platform,
| but the hardware itself remains impossible to upgrade or
| repair for mere mortals. The Framework is the pinnacle of
| truly owning your laptop while not sacrificing speed and a
| crowd pleasing design.
| emiller88 wrote:
| FYI, we've added support for the framework to nixos-hardware. I
| appreciate any feedback or improvements anyone has!
| https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/blob/master/framewor...
| fuzzybear3965 wrote:
| Thank you!!!
| fuzzybear3965 wrote:
| Ditto.
| nikodunk wrote:
| Agreed! Got one from work, and it's a beast on Fedora 36 with
| the 11th gen. Even the discrete-ish Iris Xe graphics are
| surprisingly fast. So cool that we'll actually be able to
| update the innards in a few years as necessary to keep it
| feeling fresh.
|
| Edit: A small but nice design feature is the light that comes
| on to imply whether the usb-c port is charging properly. Coming
| from a mac that removed this feature when usb-c charging was
| introduced, this is a huge luxury.
| fossuser wrote:
| Does suspend work reliably? Is battery life ok? Does the
| trackpad suck?
|
| I'm tempted but every time I've tried so far to leave Mac
| hardware I regret it - seems even harder now with M1
| performance.
|
| Still, the framework laptop is super cool. Might be worth
| trying anyway.
| SkyMarshal wrote:
| Yeah it's hard to beat just running linux in a VM on a Mac,
| especially with Mac's new hardware. Framework's modularity is
| probably the most compelling alternate value proposition,
| though.
| [deleted]
| wollsmoth wrote:
| You can basically do this with macs if you still use the usb-c
| charger. Even with the new ones they still charge through those
| ports on either side.
|
| But yeah, being able to swap those ports is great. I'm feeling
| the pain of having only 1 hdmi out on my laptop and the ability
| to just add one on sounds amazing.
| k8sToGo wrote:
| Isn't there an issue if you plug in on the wrong side? I
| remember something about CPU and throttling.
| philistine wrote:
| That was the Intel models.
| kibwen wrote:
| Do Macs still favor charging via the USB-C ports on the right
| side? IIRC charging on the left caused
| overheating/throttling. I'd be interested to know if the
| Framework also favors a specific port for charging.
| happyopossum wrote:
| Not anymore. The latest Intel and all of the M1 based ones
| work fine from either side with no heat issues.
| philistine wrote:
| This sounds like a thing that happened on the Intel ones.
| The M1 laptops have a large cooling overhead that would
| render the point moot.
| conradev wrote:
| One other difference is that the M1 MacBook Pros only
| have one port on the right side and two on the left now,
| which has been annoying a few times
| wollsmoth wrote:
| Oh Idk actually. I was happy to learn it still works on the
| magsafe ones so I can still use the old charger though.
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to-
| find...
| KptMarchewa wrote:
| That was an intel mac thing.
| fiddlerwoaroof wrote:
| This is interesting: over the last several months, a friend has
| been running NixOS on a Framework and has been told by
| Framework employees that they can't help him with Linux kernel
| issues because he's using an unsupported OS and he's also had
| lots of complaints about battery life and power management.
|
| I love the idea of the Framework, but it seems to suffer from
| all the issues that made me switch to MacBooks in the first
| place.
| nrp wrote:
| We would love to be able to provide more personalized service
| for different Linux distros, but we unfortunately just don't
| have the necessary expertise to be able to do that well.
|
| For Linux-related service requests, we first ask that folks
| try an Ubuntu 22.04 or Fedora 36 Live USB (the distros we
| have done the most internal testing with and created setup
| guides for) to be able to determine whether there could be a
| hardware issue. Once we have verified there isn't a hardware
| issue, we ask that folks post in the community thread for
| their distro for help:
| https://community.frame.work/c/framework-laptop/linux/91
|
| In practice, this works well because we have an extremely
| helpful and engaged community (including in many cases
| maintainers for that distro). Additionally, because that
| debugging happens in the open, any answers from it are
| publicly visible for future users to see.
|
| All of that said, we'd love to find better ways to provide
| deeper support ourselves and are open to input. A more
| official path would likely still start with the most popular
| distros.
| carlhjerpe wrote:
| You know, not to promote NixOS too much but the
| reproducibility of it makes this specific OS especially
| easy to support. There's already a community driven
| hardware support module to use [1]. If you look at it it
| doesn't hold a lot of things though, since NixOS is quite
| bleeding edge (Wi-Fi already supported) and you Framework
| is otherwise quite Linux friendly (Please make a 1080p-ish
| display tho, until Wayland is 4 real).
|
| LPT: NixOS installs by themselves aren't good for much, use
| NixOS-hardware and look into power configurations if you
| have specific requirements.
|
| 1: https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-
| hardware/blob/master/framewor...
| trelane wrote:
| I wondered. It looked very Windowsy, and I'd guessed the
| Linux support was non-existent. Sounds like I'm going to stay
| away then.
| lukeschlather wrote:
| doyougnu was previously running NixOS on a Macbook so their
| bar for "working" is probably much lower than a normal
| person's.
|
| I'm on Windows, but if a Linux could give me reliable power
| management I would switch in a heartbeat. I don't know what
| it would take to have sensible power management on Linux
| without major issues.
| 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
| Try Pop OS.
| trelane wrote:
| On System76...
| echion wrote:
| > if a Linux could give me reliable power management I
| would switch in a heartbeat
|
| More than `powertop --auto-tune`?
| loudmax wrote:
| I get six to eight hours on my Thinkpad, running Arch
| Linux.
|
| This did _not_ happen out of the box. I think I got like
| two hours of battery life before I began tuning parameters.
| As usual, the Arch wiki is an excellent resource even if
| you 're running a different distro:
| https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management
| R0b0t1 wrote:
| That's impressive. I've done the equivalent of tuning
| everything and still wound up with battery lifetime half
| of what it should be on Windows.
|
| There's also specific programs that are really bad. Edge
| used to add 2-4 hours extra battery life when using my
| Surface to read PDFs. If I used Firefox, it was shorter
| by a very noticeable amount.
| trelane wrote:
| Does straight chrome have similar battery performance?
| varispeed wrote:
| When there a new laptop release with an Intel CPU, the topic of
| fans is rarely talked. How is the Framework doing when it comes
| to heat? I decided that I will no longer buy a laptop that whirls
| fans whenever you do something more resource intensive or even
| simply open an app. I have fairly modern XPS 15 and the fan noise
| is just unbearable. It puts me off coming near the laptop. So it
| looks like I'll have to bite the bullet and buy M1/M2 if there is
| going to be a way to run Linux reliably.
| headsoup wrote:
| Nice. I noticed the 'Pre-order now' button for the 12th gen DIY
| edition goes to the configuration page for the normal edition.
|
| I was confused that all options had Windows installed...
|
| You can still get to the DIY configure page through Product Story
| -> Pre-Order Now.
| nrp wrote:
| We are fixing this now!
|
| Edit: This is fixed now.
| someguy5344523 wrote:
| Umm, right now, the pre-built page takes you to the diy page
| instead, even if you click on "Or check out pre-built
| options"
| zanethomas wrote:
| my next laptop!
| 4ggr0 wrote:
| I'm now waiting for over a year for this laptop to be available
| in my country.
|
| Would still really like to order one, but my patience is running
| out, don't have a laptop currently.
|
| EDIT: I sound very pissed off. I know that it's hard to ship to
| lots of countries, it's just frustrating for me to not even have
| an estimation. Will I be able to buy it in 3 or 6 months? Or does
| it take another year? no idea.
| leodriesch wrote:
| If you're fine with import tax and an American keyboard, there
| are services [0] that provide you with an American address and
| send any packets that arrive there to you via international
| shipping.
|
| [0]: https://www.myus.com/
| agomez314 wrote:
| Exciting stuff! Great job, y'all. Any chance RISC-V architectures
| will be on a Framework Laptop one day?
| seanw444 wrote:
| Hopefully after AMD finally comes out. That would be awesome. A
| truly open system.
| yuters wrote:
| I'm still waiting for more keyboards option on a DIY kit in North
| America. Seems like a waste for a modular laptop that you can't
| order one with no keyboard. You have to buy a separate keyboard
| in the marketplace and throw away the english one.
| skywal_l wrote:
| I would like to see a 75 keyboard like the HP Envy 13 x360 with
| a bar of keys with Home/PageUp/PageDown/End.
| meibo wrote:
| GPUs please! Make it happen!
| intsunny wrote:
| I'd really wish for an AMD motherboard.
|
| The new AMD chips with the RDNA2 is a Linux user's dream. The
| open source support is incredible.
| cyber_kinetist wrote:
| I thought that the latest Alder Lake CPUs pretty much catched
| up with AMD in terms of general performance nowadays. And
| Intel's iGPU support was rock solid even before AMD.
| fyrn- wrote:
| Th IGPU is substantially better in the new RDNA2 chips, also
| power draw.
| cosmiccatnap wrote:
| Not really no. The power draw and heat on these chips are
| nearly 3x the AMD variant.
| alkaloid wrote:
| I believe so much in this project -- I was an early adopter but
| couldn't figure out a use case for the laptop, so have been
| lurking, waiting on sweeter and sweeter upgrades . . . this may
| fit the bill!
| rjsw wrote:
| The ethernet expansion card looks good.
| nrp wrote:
| This was by far our most popular Expansion Card request. We've
| actually been working on it since before launching the original
| Framework Laptop. It's just a non-trivial packaging challenge,
| especially to land 2.5Gbit support.
| Terretta wrote:
| > _non-trivial... especially 2.5Gbit_
|
| Elsewhere in this thread:
|
| nrp: _"Unfortunately, Realtek is the one and only choice for
| a USB 3.1 to 2.5Gbit Ethernet controller. We don 't like it
| any more than you do, but there are several niches in the PC
| peripheral space where there is no alternative to using a
| Realtek part."_
| xchaotic wrote:
| I had a look and it looks like everything is upgraded- the
| chassis, the motherboard etc. So if you wanted to take advantage
| of all of the improvements you'd need to buy them all. At which
| point it might be less materially wasteful to but another, less
| recyclable laptop that uses fewer parts ?
| hojjat12000 wrote:
| You don't "NEED" to upgrade your chassis. Even if you do, it's
| just one piece out of the 3 pieces for your chassis. You'd be
| upgrading your motherboard and CPU. You can reuse your wifi,
| storage, ram, your expansion cards, your display, your
| speakers, your keyboard, your touchpad, your battery,
| powersupply, cables...
|
| That being said, you don't need to upgrade from 11th gen to
| 12th gen. Maybe in a few years when 11th gen isn't cutting it
| for you anymore you can upgrade to 15th gen.
|
| It's great that they provide a path for upgrading, but the more
| important thing here is having more recent hardware for someone
| who wants to buy a framework in 2022.
| petilon wrote:
| Still no retina display option. Steve Jobs made the right call
| over a decade ago... the only scaling that looks good after 100%
| is 200%. Any in-between scaling will have display artifacts.
|
| This laptop has 150% scaling. What sort of display artifacts can
| you expect because of this? Go to a web page with a grid, with
| 1-pixel horizontal grid lines. Even though all lines are set to
| 1-pixel, some lines will appear thicker than others.
|
| I blame Microsoft for this mess. Windows supports in-between
| resolutions (with display artifacts), and hardware manufacturers
| therefore manufacture in-between resolutions. Framework laptop is
| limited to what the display manufacturers put out.
| cowtools wrote:
| besides the fact that "retina display" is a marketing term
| invented by Apple, I don't really see what the big deal is. I
| have pretty good vision and I don't notice individual pixels on
| my 1080p screen. More pixels means more load on the GPU.
| arinlen wrote:
| > _I have pretty good vision and I don 't notice individual
| pixels on my 1080p screen._
|
| 1080p doesn't mean much if you leave out the screen's pixel
| density. There's a world of difference between a smartphone
| with a 5' 1080p screen and a 24' monitor with a 1080p screen.
| cowtools wrote:
| That's a good point. But distance also plays a factor.
| Perhaps we should be measuring in pixels per degree at the
| viewing distance.
| dntrkv wrote:
| That's actually what the term "retina" means (in Apple
| marketing lingo). It's the required pixel density, at
| different viewing distances, where you no longer see the
| pixels. Retina PPI for Macbooks is different compared to
| iPhones.
| LtdJorge wrote:
| And distance to it
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| For some people, High-DPI displays are the type of upgrade
| that you don't notice until you've been using it for a while
| and have to switch back to the old technology.
|
| I was also fine with lower resolutions for years because that
| was the only option. After using high-DPI displays for a
| couple years, I can't stand working on old low-DPI monitors
| for long periods of time. It's similar to how we were all
| happy with our mechanical HDD computers for years, but after
| using an SSD-based machine for a few months you can never go
| back to slow HDD-based machines.
|
| It's not about seeing individual pixels. It's about the text
| clarity and reduced fatigue after reading text all day.
| layla5alive wrote:
| I have a 4k 14" ThinkPad X1 Carbon and I happily use it at
| 100% scaling.
| cowtools wrote:
| I use a bitmap font such as Unifont If I want the text to
| look sharper on a 1080p screen. it is useful for
| programming, not so much documents.
|
| As for hard drives vs SSDs, I can hardly notice the
| difference in read/write speeds day-to-day. I merely use an
| SSD because it is more durable in the situation that I drop
| my laptop.
| jameshart wrote:
| When I use a machine with a spinning rust drive, my brain
| keeps interrupting me: "Why is this computer _clicking_? "
| zionic wrote:
| >I have pretty good vision and I don't notice individual
| pixels on my 1080p screen.
|
| For a 24" 1080p monitor in typical desktop configuration I
| get screen-door-effect. I can clearly see the black grid
| lines between pixels.
|
| Also, if you can see aliasing/stair-stepping on this test
| then your eyes could benefit from higher resolution:
|
| https://www.testufo.com/aliasing-
| visibility#foreground=fffff...
| brandonmenc wrote:
| I've been on an LG Ultrafine 5k for a year and I consider
| anything less to be borderline unusable.
|
| > I have pretty good vision
|
| My vision is terrible. Maybe the relationship works the other
| way around?
| petilon wrote:
| It is different from person to person. I notice pixels on
| 13-inch 1080p screens. I can't imagine using a display that
| is not 200% scaling. Even 300% scaling has display artifacts.
| hit8run wrote:
| 1080p !?! Wow I didn't know that there are professionals out
| there using such a shitty resolution. You are definitely not
| the target audience for high quality hardware then I guess.
| dhruvmittal wrote:
| While I prefer my personal machines to have 1440p or 4k
| resolutions, I'm perfectly happy with my work PC's 1080p
| screen for development and email. I'm hardly watching
| videos or gaming on that machine, and I don't find that
| fonts are noticeably sharper at the size that I prefer them
| on a 15" laptop display.
| hit8run wrote:
| You find the screen real estate sufficient? I hate
| developing on a small screen (especially for the web).
| beepbooptheory wrote:
| I hear some people call themselves professionals and don't
| even use gold-plated HDMI cables.
| hit8run wrote:
| Why use HDMI when there is USB-C or Thunderbolt? As far
| as I know 4k@60hz is max on HDMI. You are optimising the
| wrong thing here.
| toper-centage wrote:
| That's pointless gatekeeping. Having the most expensive
| pencil doesn't make you draw better. For most professionals
| in most fields, more than 1080p is a waste of energy.
| hit8run wrote:
| Good tooling improves the artists workflow and results in
| most cases.
| jason0597 wrote:
| Wait until you see what hardware the OpenBSD developers
| use... are you going to claim that they _aren 't_
| professionals?
|
| https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20120425065148
|
| https://www.undeadly.org/features/2012/r2k12/P1020598.JPG
| hit8run wrote:
| These images are from 2012... That was 10 years ago. lol
| [deleted]
| cowtools wrote:
| I am not a professional, I am just a student.
|
| Edit: If I was an artist or something I might care about
| resolution or color accuracy.
| hit8run wrote:
| Finish your studies and then you will get the chance to
| use better hardware :)
|
| Color accuracy is super important to me whenever I need
| to design something on the frontend side of things. High
| resolution is important too because I'm working with my
| screens. That means that I stare many hours per day in
| the display. Life is too short for shitty hardware and
| most professionals in our industry or their companies can
| definitely afford it.
| erikpukinskis wrote:
| Same. I have an old school 2013 MBA and a fresh MBP for work
| and I don't really notice the difference.
|
| Of course I can _see_ the difference. The MBP looks really
| nice. But when I sit down to code or watch a movie on the
| MBA, I have pretty much the same experience as I do on my
| work machine.
| newaccount74 wrote:
| I use a setup with multiple screens, some of them Retina,
| some of them not (the lack of high resolution external
| displays is a pity...).
|
| The difference in resolution is immediately obvious, but
| once I start working I forget that the displays have a
| different resolution.
|
| Things like aspect ratio are much more important, and I
| think that 3:2 is the best aspect ratio for work. 16:9 and
| even 16:10 has always felt a bit cramped in the vertical,
| 3:2 feels perfect.
| ProAm wrote:
| It also doesn't have a touchbar and has an excessive amount of
| ports!
| whycombagator wrote:
| Just like the new MBPs!
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| Framework laptop actual has fewer ports than MBPs (although
| they're configurable which is neat, with the caveat that some
| like expansion ports HDMI are a big drain on battery life,
| even when inactive)
| Kototama wrote:
| Maybe you can accept that no project is perfect, specially
| young projects and that the exceptional effort they put to have
| the laptop modular are a big benefits for the environment and
| having less resource consumption, which is maybe, maybe, more
| important than a retina display?
| giantrobot wrote:
| The environmental benefit of a laptop with modular components
| is debatable at best and negligible at worst. At the scale of
| the Framework laptop's production it's meaningless.
|
| As for the display, for a laptop supposedly intended to last
| years, every human interface component should be the best
| available option. The ergonomics are important for a long
| lived device. It shouldn't _become_ problematic just because
| the owner aged. Otherwise the laptop ends up the same as any
| other where the owner tosses it after it becomes
| uncomfortable to use. All the benefits of modularity are lost
| if it ends up in a landfill.
| daemontus wrote:
| A gentle reminder that every retina MacBook has been shipping
| with fractional scaling as _default_ for years now (and it 's
| not even 1.5). Sure, you can put it back into 2x if you want
| to. But you can do the same on a Framework, and then you get...
| wait for it... almost the same vertical resolution as a 2x 13"
| MB Pro (93% to be exact). If you absolutely need more space and
| a 2x scaling, there is a large amount of 4K 13"/14" laptops
| that are more than happy to fill that niche. Free market is
| your friend :)
|
| So the argument that Windows is somehow responsible for the
| death of perfect 2x scaling is a bit exaggerated. People just
| want more space and anti-aliasing is mostly good enough so that
| no one cares.
| hinkley wrote:
| I run one monitor at 1.5:1, but it also offers me 1.2766:1,
| (2160->1692) which is a truly bizarre configuration. It's
| right at the edge of what I can read comfortably. I don't
| think it looks particularly fuzzy, I mostly don't use it
| because I don't like the idea of using such a funky
| resolution. It _feels_ like it will be problematic, in ways
| 1.5 won 't.
| petilon wrote:
| > _every retina MacBook has been shipping with fractional
| scaling as default for years now_
|
| I have a MacBook and I don't see the kind of display
| artifacts that I mentioned (grid lines set to same pixel
| width appearing to have different widths) on a MacBook. Why
| is that? I have also tried the same test on nearly every
| Windows laptop at BestBuy, and every Windows laptop that does
| not have scaling set to either 100% or 200% has this
| artifact. Even 300% scaling has this artifact. What is
| Apple's magic that Microsoft has not been able to replicate?
| j3s wrote:
| could I suggest trying to figure this out yourself? it
| sounds like you have the interest and incentive - i'm sure
| other people would love to know. a blog post about why
| fractional scaling artifacts exist on Windows but not MacOS
| would probably be popular (i'd definitely be interested in
| reading it at least).
| mumblemumble wrote:
| Very wild guess: Display PostScript. Or, I suppose, more
| accurately, its descendant Quartz 2D.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| That's weird to nitpick. That's a software issue not a display
| issue.
| hinkley wrote:
| Using an external monitor with OS X, you're often stuck with
| those in-between sizes if you don't either have hawkeyes or
| enjoy seeing super-crisp 1080p resolution taking up half of
| your desk, which is a waste of space.
|
| I'm mostly not going to be looking at a 1 pixel wide line at 4k
| on a 27" monitor. At 32" it might be debatable. Above that
| you're stacking them oddly (top+bottom, one vertical, or both),
| or you're down to one monitor and the real estate issue becomes
| a more pressing issue.
|
| I'm at 'stacking weirdly' and my old main monitor (a "4k"
| monitor that is actually 3840x2160) is vertical, and angled on
| the corner of my desk. OS X defaults it to 1080p, which is too
| big a font for how close I sit to it. Full resolution is way
| too tiny. So I use 1440 (1.5).
|
| The smallest graphics I use are in grafana, and those happen to
| be on my vertical monitor. I don't see any weird moire patterns
| when I scroll them, so if there's an issue with line width,
| it's well covered by things like not using #00 or #ff for all
| RGB color channels, which tend to show artifacts more overtly.
|
| But then again, it's not just the hardware it's also the
| software, and Linux has struggled to keep up with Windows and
| OS X on some issues related to graphics. The saga of good fonts
| in X took an unseemly amount of time to sort out.
| newaccount74 wrote:
| Yeah, Steve Jobs mistake was assuming that 3rd party
| manufacturers would offer high res displays. 10 years later,
| and the only high res display on the market that's suitable
| as a 2x display is Apple's own 5k studio display, which comes
| with a super high price and a crappy webcam...
|
| If you want something that uses less space on the desk, there
| used to be some 24" 4k displays which were acceptable, even
| though the DPI is slightly too low on them for 2x.
|
| So while the 2x scaling worked out great for laptops and
| iMacs, there's unfortunately only very limited options for
| external displays...
| pkulak wrote:
| It's possible for an OS to support fractional scaling properly;
| just tell applications to render their windows 1.5 times
| larger, map the inputs properly, and turn off font anti-
| aliasing. The problem is that it requires every app to be
| updated, which hasn't happened everywhere yet. Android and iOS,
| for example, do it perfectly. So does ChromeOS.
| tadfisher wrote:
| Even Android maps "1dp" to a non-integer number of pixels on
| most displays.
|
| It looks "perfect" because of a combination of anti-aliasing
| and high density. But zoom in on a repeating pattern of 1dp
| lines, and you will see that some are aliased and some are
| not if your display's density is not an integer multiple of
| 160dpi (mdpi).
|
| But Android can do this everywhere because everything draws
| to a Skia canvas under the hood (well,
| HWComposer/SurfaceFlinger, but basically Skia). Desktop
| operating systems don't have the same luxury. MacOS and Gnome
| render at 2x and downscale the entire frame, which produces
| decent results on high-density displays but look blurry
| otherwise. I have no idea what Windows does but it sounds
| like it's a mess.
| arinlen wrote:
| > _(...) just tell applications to render their windows 1.5
| times larger, map the inputs properly, and turn off font
| anti-aliasing._
|
| Doesn't disabling anti-aliasing make things look worse?
| Unintentional and random jagged lines never look right.
| OctopusLupid wrote:
| Is it possible GP was talking about sub-pixel font anti-
| aliasing, which would look wrong when scaled?
| adgjlsfhk1 wrote:
| anti-aliasing matters a lot less when you have a high
| resolution display.
| arinlen wrote:
| > _anti-aliasing matters a lot less when you have a high
| resolution display._
|
| The original claim is that turning off anti-aliasing
| would make things look better, and not that it looks bad
| but not that bad.
|
| Even in high res displays, isn't it true that anti-
| aliasing makes things look better?
| adgjlsfhk1 wrote:
| Anti-aliasing at the wrong resolution looks worse than
| not anti-aliasing at all. As such, if you tell your
| applications to render things larger than 1x scaling,
| anti-aliasing starts to hurt more than it helps.
| throwaway92394 wrote:
| Yes and no. Speaking generally about anti-aliasing, and
| the method it's done varies a lot in it's trade offs.
|
| Generally anti-aliasing is a trade off between
| pixelation, blurriness, and performance. The better the
| anti-aliasing and the higher the pixel count the slower
| the performance - this can be an issue and some GUI
| applications like some IDE's at high DPI's. Faster
| antialiasing methods will look worse.
|
| In an ideal world a high enough pixel density would mean
| the apparent pixelation is so low that anti-aliasing
| isn't necessary. Generally anti-aliasing means more
| blurry - although the amount of blur might not be an
| issue for you, it depends. The higher the DPI the less
| pixels that need to be "guessed" which gives you better
| precision, which is especially useful for vector graphics
| like text that have theoretically infinite precision.
|
| It really depends on how you define "better". Generally
| for text specifically I think most people prefer
| sharpness. This, combined with the much higher DPI
| display's we have nowadays I think we're at the point
| where for many people including myself, text looks better
| without antialiasing. Personally I think it's easier to
| read.
|
| tl;dr - it depends on how you define "better". At very
| high DPI's I think we're at a point where many people
| prefer the sharpness provided by the lack of AA compared
| to the artifacts that are now relatively tiny thanks to
| the high DPI. Also in some applications like Intellij I
| also have had performance issues with AA at high DPI's.
| favadi wrote:
| Sadly, Linux doesn't support fractional scaling properly.
| This is a show stopper for me.
| imilk wrote:
| Fractional scaling works pretty seamlessly for me using Pop
| OS on a Framework.
| [deleted]
| colordrops wrote:
| No it's not 150% scaling. You can run native resolution just
| fine. With Linux it's actually better than higher resolutions,
| as the dot pitch is similar to a 27" 4k external monitor, so
| you can scale natively on both and have windows look
| approximately the same size. My other laptop is 4k, and it's a
| nightmare getting scaling to work because it has such a higher
| DPI than my external monitor. If Linux had better scaling
| support for HiDPI I'd prefer a 4k laptop but it doesn't, so
| native resolution is the way to go.
| nagisa wrote:
| Could you elaborate on why realtek was chosen for the ethernet
| expansion card? It does tend to have a pretty bad rep, with one
| of the recent documentations being
| https://overengineer.dev/blog/2021/04/25/usb-c-hub-madness.h...
| whazor wrote:
| Seems to be that the realtek driver issues are mostly for Mac
| users, which will not be really an issue for Framework users.
| nfriedly wrote:
| FWIW, I just had a realtek USB ethernet adapter take down my
| network twice last week when I was trying out with an Android
| tablet.
|
| It's part of a powered USB hub, and it works fine while the
| tablet is connected, but after disconnecting the tablet, the
| ethernet controller stays active, and about half an hour
| later my entire home network stops working. I had to
| disconnect the realtek adapter and reboot my network switch
| each time.
|
| So, their problems are not entirely limited to mac.
| howinteresting wrote:
| That's not limited to Realtek:
|
| https://twitter.com/chx/status/1457848563199721472
| nfriedly wrote:
| Ok, maybe that one is partially the switch's fault.
|
| Also, here's a better link for that: https://www.reddit.c
| om/r/UsbCHardware/comments/qo6r3f/powere...
| philliphaydon wrote:
| I have had many issues with Realtek over the years causing
| windows to wake. Just changing the network card in my laptop
| to Intel causes that issue to go away. I won't buy a
| motherboard for my desktop if it's Realtek.
| 867-5309 wrote:
| sounds like home is phoning you with a WoWAN from Taiwan
| yabones wrote:
| As a long-time Linux user, every time I hear Realtek or see a
| rtlxxxx driver the blood drains from my head. Just a constant
| nightmare of crashy firmware and dkms hell. Maybe things have
| gotten better in the last couple years, but I've steered
| clear every time I've had the chance.
| djbusby wrote:
| My ASUS lappy with rtl8xxx WiFi started having issues on
| newer kernel 5.10.x spewing bugchecks in the dmesg and is
| locked till reboot. Apparently it's a frequent issue, cause
| my searches showed it's been happening to others since at
| least 2018. It's 2022 and not much better.
|
| However! Frame.work is Ina position to be an agent of
| change!
| blacklion wrote:
| Realtek RTL8822 WiFi kills cheap soapbox routers, typical
| for AirBnB and cheap/small hotels. Known problems, no
| fixes.
|
| I mean, it blocks such routers, not brick them
| permanently, but result is the same: you and your
| companion doesn't have internet. At all.
| nrp wrote:
| Unfortunately, Realtek is the one and only choice for a USB 3.1
| to 2.5Gbit Ethernet controller. We don't like it any more than
| you do, but there are several niches in the PC peripheral space
| where there is no alternative to using a Realtek part.
| mrpippy wrote:
| How about Aquantia?
| nrp wrote:
| As far as we can tell, Marvell end of lifed the USB to
| Ethernet solutions. If anyone from Marvell can tell us
| otherwise, we'd like to know!
| nfriedly wrote:
| What about a Thunderbolt connection and a PCIe ethernet
| adapter - could that work?
| kieranl wrote:
| The power consumption of this would be too high.
| Sebb767 wrote:
| And the cost, probably. 40$ for 2.5Gbit is not that bad
| of an offering; at 80$, this would probably be even more
| niche.
| jandrese wrote:
| Yay! They finally offer an Ethernet card so I don't have to use
| flaky piece of crap Realtek based USB Ethernet adapters.
|
| (Reads the specs)
|
| Shit!
| klaas- wrote:
| Any news about lvfs support from framework?
| moderation wrote:
| Haven't been able to find anything beyond his Jan 6 2022 tweet
| [0]. No response in the forums for this question [1] from 4
| days ago. Frustrating to not be able to upgrade BIOS for Linux
| users without resorting to Windows or replacing boot loaders
|
| 0.
| https://twitter.com/FrameworkPuter/status/147913722834957517...
|
| 1. https://community.frame.work/t/lvfs-3-07-bios-
| availability/1...
| kieranl wrote:
| We have LVFS updates in lvfs testing but there is a bios
| capsule update bug that wipes the boot entries on update.
| Feedback from 3.07 was that some distros fail to boot after
| the update because they do not put a efi loader in the
| fallback path of the ESP partition. So we are hesitant to
| enable LVFS on 11th gen due to this issue. The code that
| handles this runs from the previous bios, so we cannot fix
| this in the capsule. We do offer a EFI update which you can
| use without booting into windows.
| https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/framework-laptop-
| bios...
| codezero wrote:
| I got my framework laptop a little over a week ago and I'm pretty
| happy with it, but seeing such a huge performance boost is
| frustrating a little, that said, I bought it to support/encourage
| the company, so I guess it's working :P
| noveltyaccount wrote:
| Framework team, I know you hang out here... I'd love a
| touchscreen+stylus digitizer model with 360deg hinge. My Lenovo
| yoga need a replacement!
| freemint wrote:
| Digitizers are really expensive. I am not sure if Framework is
| big enough to handle this. Just buy a snall wacom tablet and
| put it next to the laptop that also works.
| noveltyaccount wrote:
| That is definitely not the same thing as being able to reach
| up & touch the display, or flip the display 360 degrees into
| "tablet mode" :) Maybe I'm a minority in liking a laptop to
| be able to do those kinds of things.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-05-19 23:00 UTC)